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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 Mar 2022

Vol. 1019 No. 1

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Last night, we once again witnessed the most harrowing scenes emanating from Ukraine. We have seen the bewildered faces of children and civilian populations fleeing for their safety and lives, spending night after night huddled in air raid shelters in scenes that we never dreamed we would live to witness on our Continent again. Our thoughts are with the people of Ukraine - those who have fled and those who have travelled to Ukraine, including from Ireland. We have heard their harrowing testimonies.

Ní féidir le héinne a bhfuil a meas aige nó aici ar an tsaoirse agus ar an bhféinchinneadh ach breathnú le huafás ar ghníomhartha na Rúise. Seasaimid leis an Úcráin agus tugaimid ár dtacaíocht di arís. The ongoing violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and Ukraine's internationally recognised borders is an affront to the principles that we hold dear as members of the international community. I wish to take this opportunity to commend the work of Irish diplomatic staff and NGO personnel who are on the ground in Ukraine and elsewhere in eastern Europe carrying out very important work assisting those caught up in this nightmarish conflict and distributing humanitarian support and aid. This is vital work. I equally commend everyone engaged in collecting aid in Ireland to assist the humanitarian response.

The Taoiseach has set out the initial contribution of the Irish Government to the humanitarian effort. We all agree that this is a time when we need to stretch ourselves. Will the Taoiseach set out what else the Government proposes to do and how Ireland might step up our efforts and supports for these humanitarian endeavours?

Later this afternoon, I will meet the Ukrainian ambassador to assure her of our continued support and our unwavering commitment to seeing peace in her homeland. I welcome the overwhelming support of the European Parliament yesterday for a resolution condemning Russia's actions. I hope that, in the Dáil this evening, we will equally support the motion before us on a cross-party basis.

Our diplomatic response to Russia's actions must be firm, sure-footed and consistent. Our objective is to end the war and we need to play our full part in that. Our military neutrality, our history of conflict resolution and our seat on the UN Security Council mean that we are strongly placed to advance these efforts for a peaceful pathway forwards. Diplomacy must prevail. Every diplomatic avenue must be used to end the war. All diplomatic leverage must be employed.

It is clear that the actions of Russia in Ukraine are abhorrent. To that end, I wish to ask about the expulsion of the Russian ambassador to Ireland. Thus far, this is an action that the Government has not taken. It has advanced the case of working in concert with our European partners. I happen to believe that now is the time for our Government and the Taoiseach as Head of Government to take the lead on this issue. Has he raised this matter with his fellow EU leaders? Has he put a proposal to them? Does he agree that it is now time to pursue this course of action?

Is dochreidte an méid atá ag tarlú san Úcráin. Is uafásach an scéal é gan amhras. Is ionsaí mídhleathach gan réasún atá faoi chaibidil ag an Rúis. Is olc an scéal ar fad é agus tá muintir na tíre seo go hiomlán i gcoinne an ionsaithe seo.

We are less than a week into this horrific war against the Ukrainian people and I think President Putin has not achieved the rapid victory over them that he anticipated. More importantly, what is very clear from the resistance of the Ukrainian people is "how dare they value their freedom, their sovereignty, their territorial integrity?" There is not a scintilla of evidence that there is any response from Ukrainian citizens that embraces the Russian invasion as President Putin would have advocated with his troops and so forth.

The courage and resilience of the Ukrainian people is resonating across the globe. I spoke last evening to the Ukrainian Prime Minister, Mr. Denys Shmyhal. He thanked Ireland for our support - our political support, our economic support, our humanitarian support - along with our European Union colleagues. He said that the situation was extremely difficult on the ground in terms of the indiscriminate killing of children and women. It is shocking what is going on with the levelling of cities. It is very clear now that President Putin is moving into a new phase where we are witnessing extreme forms of barbarity in terms of barbaric attacks on cities and civilian targets and in levelling cities. It is quite horrific and an extraordinary trauma is now being visited upon the people of Ukraine, and we have to do everything we possibly can to support them. For example, cluster munitions - this is something that we as a country took a leading role in by creating an international treaty to ban the use of cluster munitions in conflicts - are being used in Ukraine.

It is estimated that approximately 700,000 people have already left Ukraine and the numbers could grow dramatically and very significantly. We should expect those numbers to increase. That will create huge challenges across the European Continent because the repercussions of this war, which is being waged by Putin, are going to be felt across the length and breadth of our Continent. The human trauma will be enormous. I am working on the basis that that trauma will be on a scale that we have never experienced before. We as a country now have to get our heads around that and start preparing the humanitarian responses that will potentially be required to deal with the scale of migration caused by the war itself, but I think that the Irish people will do the right thing. We will not be found wanting in relation to our humanitarian response.

In relation to diplomacy, we are absolutely working with our European Union colleagues in respect of that, and first of all in terms of seeking a peaceful resolution of the issues. To be fair to all the European leaders, particularly the French Presidency, Emmanuel Macron did everything he possibly could to avert this war, and Chancellor Scholz likewise. I met Chancellor Scholz last week in respect of his engagements with President Putin and his endeavours to resolve this.

In terms of diplomatic channels and expulsions, that is the easy bit. It is our view that, across Europe, we work in concert with our European Union colleagues. I have been absolutely passionate about this, in that our unity is our strength. It is easy to say "I will lead ahead of others." I actually think that the most effective route-----

Tá an t-am caite.

If I could, it is very important that I make this point genuinely in the face of the war that we are facing on our Continent. The European Union, working together as a unified body with the United States and Canada, packs a powerful punch. We have seen that in terms of the sanctions that have been agreed. We were very clear at the EU Council meeting - we wanted the widest set of sanctions. We want to protect Irish citizens and we want to maintain diplomatic channels to protect Irish citizens in Ukraine, in Russia and elsewhere. It is important that we bear that in mind before taking precipitative action on the expulsions front. That could be done in a day; it is very easy, but the repercussions could be much longer felt by Irish citizens. That is the challenge.

No one, and certainly no Irish person, will underestimate for a second the absolute determination and courage of the Ukrainian people in defending their homeland, families and lives. No one underestimates for a moment the barbarity of Vladimir Putin's regime and the illegality of this invasion of Ukraine. Neither should any of us doubt the absolute necessity to reassert the primacy of international law, rules-based international relationships and, above all else, the need to restore good order, a full withdrawal of Russian troopers and peace such that this war ends.

It is in that spirit I invite the Taoiseach as Head of the Irish Government to lead again, to lead together with our partners in Europe and to leverage this crucial diplomatic tool. It is essential as shells rain down on Kyiv and people flee for their lives that we demonstrate in every way to the Russian Federation that Ireland means business and that we will not offer any shelter, any excuse or any cover in any form to them. In that spirit, I again invite the Taoiseach to lead our European partners in this endeavour. As regards keeping diplomatic channels open, and that is a legitimate point the Taoiseach made, there are ways in which that can be achieved such as, for example, the appointment of a chargé d'affaires to ensure that our citizens in Russia or elsewhere are catered for. I invite the Taoiseach not to break ranks with Europe but to lead on this matter.

I do not overestimate the diplomatic leverage the Deputy has just alluded to in terms of the expulsion of any diplomat. We have expelled diplomats in the past. The Deputy did not find favour with that in the past, as she knows. She took the view that it was contrary to military neutrality at the time, in the teeth of Russian aggression. I readily acknowledge that when that happens there is a reciprocal response and one ends up with nobody on the ground, particularly in Moscow, where we have Irish citizens. I do not know how this war is going to unfold or what implications it will have for Irish citizens. I do know that right now in Ukraine we are working extremely hard to help Irish citizens to get out, in particular very vulnerable young babies and so on in hospitals in Ukraine. I am not going to cut off channels that potentially can help us to get Irish citizens who are in difficulty out of Ukraine or anywhere else for that matter.

We have discussed everything with our European colleagues, including diplomatic issues. The Minister, Deputy Coveney, has discussed it at Foreign Ministers level and we discussed it at COREPER level and at Heads of State level. I really believe that the centrality of the importance of us working in unison trumps any domestic political consideration of me being able to say that I am leading ahead of the rest. I have no interest in doing that. In the teeth of the worst war on our Continent the best response is a unified response from the European Union working with the United States. That is the best response. I say that genuinely. It is not about one taking a lead over the other. I do not think that is the right way to go. It might play well domestically in the short-term, but it is not in the best interests of the Irish citizens.

We are in unprecedented times. I have listened to the Taoiseach and there is validity in what he says but there comes a point when there is indiscriminate killing of civilians, where children are being murdered and when we know we have a dictator who is pursuing a scorched-earth policy. We have always shown leadership in this country. The Russian ambassador is a liar. He lied to the Irish people on multiple occasions. We are in unprecedented territory with a regime that is acting in an absolutely horrendous way. There is no way on this Earth, not just domestically, the Russian ambassador should stay in Ireland. What is the point in having diplomatic channels with somebody who lies? We cannot trust him. If he had said nothing, it would have been better.

President Zelenskyy has thrown down the gauntlet to the world. The Taoiseach is correct that collectively at EU level with our partners we have to do everything we can, but we also have to lead. I am asking the Taoiseach formally to withdraw our ambassador from Russia. I believe we have to do that. I also believe that we have to expel the Russian ambassador. We must also condemn the actions of some of our own elected representatives in the European Parliament. Clare Daly and Mick Wallace do not speak for the Irish people. As far as I am concerned, and the Labour Party is concerned, they have disgraced their mandate. There are a number of others who also have not covered themselves in glory either.

On the humanitarian crisis, the Taoiseach needs to give guidance to the Irish people as to how best they can help. My colleague, Deputy Howlin, has asked the Taoiseach to accelerate the passage of the Magnitsky Bill. The Taoiseach knows what it does regarding the proceeds of crime. It gives the Criminal Assets Bureau the power to seize the assets of oligarchs, officials and anyone involved in human rights abuses. If we did that, it would send a message to the world. We need to park the party politics. It is a Labour Party Bill but we will work with the Government. The Labour Party has two hours of Private Members' time next week. We will give it over if the Government is willing to add to it to take Committee and Report Stages. That would send a message to the world. This legislation is ready to go. I hope we all support it. We can make changes if needed. Will the Taoiseach please work with us to set aside time so that we can implement it?

I have key questions. On behalf of the Irish people and taking everything into account, will the Taoiseach act and expel the Russian ambassador who is a liar? Will he work with us to implement the Magnitsky Bill? I am organising and attending a protest in my home county on Friday. I am giving guidance. Will the Taoiseach please give clear guidance to the Irish people as to how they can help our Ukrainian neighbours?

I hold very little time for the Russian ambassador and his performance to date in his presentations and what he has articulated on public television-----

And to this House.

-----or for the Russian leadership. I have made that very clear in this House. I understand fully people's anger towards Russia, the leadership and the Russian ambassador. My primary concern is with Irish citizens and vulnerable Irish citizens. Earlier, Deputy McDonald made the point about diplomacy and so forth. A chargé d'affaires located here or somewhere else will not do a whole lot. Let us be very honest with people about that. If you cut off diplomatic relations, you cut them off. That is something that at European level, along with all of the other measures that have been taken, has been discussed. Far greater things have been already decided upon. Bigger impact decisions have been taken by the European Union, with Ireland participating, in terms of unprecedented economic sanctions against Russia, denying the Russian Central Bank access to its foreign reserves and excluding the majority of its critical banks from the SWIFT mechanism. There is also the decision in terms of trade and the undermining of the industrial base. These are unprecedented sanctions that have real teeth and real impact on the ground in terms of Russia's economic and industrial capacity into the future. The issue will be to continue with them because they will have impacts. We have got to hold the line in terms of those sanctions for the longer haul. President Putin has crossed the line here in terms of his appalling, barbaric attack on the Ukrainian people.

In my view, the European Union has surprised international opinion generally in terms of its remarkable solidarity among 27 member states, the unity of purpose, the speed with which it has worked with the US, Canada and others to apply unprecedented sanctions against Russia, which are already having an immediate impact in terms of the Russian economy.

Russia's currency has crashed to record lows on foreign exchange markets. Its purchasing power on international markets has been significantly reduced. Inflation in Russia has risen significantly. The Russian Central Bank has hiked interest rates from 9% to 20% to prop up the currency. The Russian stock market has shut.

That is the real meat of what Europe and America are doing. We will to do more, if necessary. I do not accept the basic premise that has been articulated to the effect that Europe should split in different directions. Europe should stay solidly united in its response to this issue. In the discussion I had with the Ukrainian Prime Minister yesterday, he expressed a genuine desire for European Union membership on behalf of the Ukrainian Government and for Ukraine's application to be accelerated, which we support, as I have said.

I did not get to all the Deputy's questions but I might get to them in my next contribution. I have already indicated to Deputy Howlin that I am positively disposed to the Bill. I have to talk to other Ministers about what can be done in that regard.

The Russian ambassador is a liar. He has lied to the Irish people. His interview on RTÉ with David McCullagh will go down in history, as will the way he performed when he was before the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence. We need to get rid of him. I accept what the Taoiseach is saying. It is a valid argument. However, I do not agree with him. There have been times when we have been of a different view to our European colleagues when it comes to how we have used funding. This is another issue on which I believe we should lead. The Irish people want us to lead. They do not want that man in this country. They do not want his colleagues in the country. They do not want a military attaché in this country. We should also ask Irish citizens to leave Russia.

On behalf of the Labour Party and, I hope, on behalf of everybody, I want to ask the Taoiseach sincerely about the Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill, drafted by my colleague, Deputy Howlin. It would probably take two hours or a little more to pass through the House next week. We will give over our Private Members' time over to the passage of the Bill and we will ask members of the Opposition and the Government to support it. We can include any amendments the Government wants to add. This proposed legislation would take the money from the oligarchs. It will facilitate the seizing of assets. It is only expanding on legislation that is already there. I ask the Taoiseach to help us, give time to the issue, work with us and have a conversation. This is not a matter of party politics. We should have a discussion outside the Chamber in order that we can deal with the Bill next week. I beg that of the Taoiseach because it is important.

There have not been differences between us and the European Union on funding. I make that point clearly. We are part of the European peace facility, which was originally established to deal, in particular, with the African continent and to support military infrastructure in Africa. We have facilitated the application and deployment-----

Will the Taoiseach talk about the Bill?

-----of the peace facility with regard to Ukraine. In other words, we have facilitated the provision of weapons and security infrastructure by European Union member states to Ukraine.

Will the Taoiseach support the Bill?

This should not be an issue of division.

It is not an issue of division.

We should be united in this House. The interjections are not necessary. I want to make an important point.

We are seeking unity on the Bill.

There has been unity. Ireland has been right up there in supporting all measures to help the Ukrainian people last week and this week.

The Taoiseach should put the Bill to the Dáil next week.

We facilitated the passage of the legislation without any opposition on Second Stage.

We need the Taoiseach's help.

The Deputy knows we facilitated its passage.

We need the Taoiseach's help.

The relevant Minister will engage with the Deputy in respect of the passage of the Bill. Let us not make the Bill-----

This is not-----

Deputy, please.

Let us not make the Bill the centrepiece of our response to the Ukrainian people and what they need right now.

We are not doing that. We just happen to have a Bill here and ready to go.

We have, with our European Union colleagues, implemented unprecedented sanctions on the Russian economy. I ask the Deputy to please acknowledge that. It is a reality.

We are talking about money in Ireland.

I ask Deputies to acknowledge those sanctions. We have done that and we are willing to do more. We are willing to engage with the Deputy in respect of the Bill.

There is €34 billion of Russian money in the International Financial Services Centre.

I dealt with that issue transparently yesterday. Ireland has not been found wanting in any area in respect of our response to the crisis in Ukraine. We are getting legitimate calls from Deputies and Senators from across the Houses about helping Irish citizens in Ukraine and elsewhere. We are getting legitimate calls to which we are responding.

The Russian ambassador is not going to help.

We are working with people.

How can the Taoiseach trust the ambassador?

On a better and different day, the Deputies opposite would agree with me. I regret to some extent the attempts to divide the House on this issue.

That is rubbish.

It is wrong.

That is absolute rubbish.

That is what is going on.

All the Taoiseach has to do is to facilitate the passage of the Bill. That is all we are asking.

I have said to Deputy Howlin on a number of occasions that the Government is positively disposed towards the Bill.

The proof will be in the pudding next week.

We are positively disposed to the Bill.

We will see the proof next week.

That is very unfair.

It is not unfair.

Please, Deputies. We are way over time. I appreciate the vital importance of the issue under discussion but we do have a schedule to try to adhere to. We are already scheduled to be here until 11.25 p.m. We are already adding to that time.

I raise the issue of the ever-increasing cost of living that the Irish people are enduring. We are now, thankfully, starting to emerge from the Covid-19 pandemic and society and workplaces are reopening. The past two years have been very tough for everybody. Many people lost their jobs. Others saw their businesses close. Many also lost friends and family members to the dreadful pandemic. Now, just as we are starting to emerge from lockdown, the people are faced with new challenges.

The cost of living, as the Taoiseach knows, is rising at an alarming rate. The rising costs are affecting all businesses in the country, large and small. I have spoken to many business owners about these challenges. A local joinery company explained to me that this time last year, its core product, a sheet material, was costing approximately €28 per sheet. Today, the cost is over €70 for the same sheet. To put that in context, the company would purchase an average of 50 of those sheets per week. This means that the cost has risen by more than €100,000 in one year. On top of that, the company's diesel bill has increased by more than €250 per week. The core costs for that business have increased by over €120,000 in the past year. Another business owner explained to me that their electricity bill has risen from €25,000 per month to €45,000 per month. These two examples are just the tip of the iceberg. Every business in the country is faced with these challenges.

In the Border region, particularly around my home town of Dundalk, local businesses are facing even greater challenges. It is becoming clear that the introduction of minimum alcohol pricing is going to have a devastating effect on local businesses in towns such as Dundalk. I support minimum unit pricing for alcohol. However, I stated all along that we must introduce it at the same time it is introduced in the North. People are travelling in their thousands to buy cheap alcohol in the North. This is going to be a massive drain on the local economy because, as the Taoiseach knows, when such people travel to the North to purchase cheap alcohol, they also buy other items, such as groceries, coffee or clothes.

The same is happening with regard to heating fuels such as coal. Coal is nearly half the price in the North that it is here so people are travelling there to buy it. Businesses along the Border can no longer compete with their Northern counterparts. The introduction of the carbon tax at this stage is not helping.

I will also speak to the cost of utility bills. People in Ireland like to do budgets but some utility companies are only billing people twice a year. People have arranged for a standing order of €130 per month, or whatever it is, and all of a sudden, four or five months down the road, they are getting bills of €1,000, €1,500 or €2,000. This has to stop. We must start pushing the utility companies to do a minimum of six meter readings per year.

People in the Border area are looking for help. I appreciate the €200 payment towards the cost of electricity bills. However, that is only a small item. I would appreciate a reply.

I thank the Deputy for raising the topical issue of the cost of living. In the earlier part of his contribution, the Deputy referred to the impact that rising costs have had on a particular company in his county. I acknowledge that. Inflation has risen significantly around the world in recent months, mainly driven by higher energy prices. Because of the Ukraine-Russia war, costs are likely to go up even more in the short term.

Inflation in Ireland was 5.5% in December and eased to 5% in January. The cost of electricity, gas, home-heating oil, petrol, diesel, motor cars and rents were the main contributors to inflation. Some food products, including bread, pasta, soft drinks and coffee, have also risen markedly in price. In 2021, the country spent €6.2 billion on imported fuels compared with €3.4 billion in 2020. That illustrates the scale of the increase.

It was an increase of €2.8 billion, which reflects the higher prices on the international market. We spent an additional €1.5 billion on imported oil and €1 billion on imported gas last year. A year ago, a barrel of oil was $64 on the international market; today, it costs $110. Oil prices have risen by $14 a barrel over the past week alone. Natural gas costs 400p a therm today on international markets, compared with 40p a therm last March. Gas prices have soared by 220p a therm over the past week. These are enormous increases in a very short period.

The most recent Central Statistics Office, CSO, data on wages show average hourly earnings in quarter 4 of 2021 were up by about 2.6% from a year earlier and up 8.2% from quarter 4 of 2019. As I said earlier, if we look at the United Kingdom and the US, inflation has been at multi-decade highs recently. Euro area inflation has gone up again, with the figures today showing it is at about 5.8%, if I am not mistaken.

We are in a very difficult situation regarding the costs of living. The Government has responded. Since coming into office, we have raised the fuel allowance from approximately €630 to €1,039. We have been in office for approximately one year and seven months. If we include the €200 electricity payment, support for those on low incomes has now almost doubled to €1,239. That will help to cushion the blow for people on low incomes. In addition, we have taken measures, as the Deputy acknowledged, in respect of the drug payment schemes, the front-loading of the working family payment and the reduction in public transport fares from the end of April, which will benefit 800,000 people.

The minimum unit pricing of alcohol came into effect on 4 January. I know the Deputy's heart is in the right place in respect of this matter and I know the point he is making. The policy is designed to reduce alcohol consumption.

I thank the Taoiseach.

On 22 February, the Northern Ireland Minister of Health, Robin Swann, launched a public consultation on the introduction of minimum unit pricing there, with a closing date of 17 May.

The time is up.

He said he has been greatly encouraged by the positive evidence coming out about the introduction of minimum unit pricing in other jurisdictions and believes its introduction in Northern Ireland has the potential to reduce the harms relating to alcohol consumption. It is a public health measure designed to reduce harms arising out of alcohol consumption.

I welcome the €200 payment towards energy bills but there is no incentive for providers to cut their costs. That is what is annoying me and it is why I use the word "profiteering". Every time we open the newspapers, we see that the banks and companies like the ESB are making many millions in profits. Some businesses are even saying they are making profits of 40% or 50%. We need these businesses to help us and we must find some kind of incentive in this regard. I repeat that many people will really welcome the €200. However, I reiterate that many companies are engaged in profiteering. I worked in an electrical wholesale business for 25 years and I cannot understand how a sheet of timber could cost €28 this time last year and now, all of a sudden, the price has increased to €70. There is something seriously wrong with that.

We have a culture in Ireland whereby people want to pay their bills. However, utility companies are raising prices twice a year. A widow came to me last week whose electricity bill had gone up from €130 a month to €400 or €500. The simple reason for this was that the company had made a mistake in its reading. When she telephoned the company, the response was, "Oh, sorry, we made a mistake." We must help people at this time. The €200 is good but we must give some kind of incentive to the companies to help the people who need it.

I fully agree with the Deputy that the utility companies have to respond in a proper way to companies and households that are in difficulty. There are various mechanisms in place whereby households that are in arrears or are in difficulty in respect of paying bills and so forth can be switched off. The utility companies have developed policies in that respect. Likewise, in terms of the utility companies the Deputy identified, meaningful and flexible approaches and responses should be developed by them in the current situation where, as I have outlined, international market prices for oil and gas have rocketed in the past 12 months and are set to go up again in the short term.

In the context of the broader issues of supply and demand, there has been an issue as economies were recovering from the Covid-19 pandemic that demand far outstripped supply and costs went up accordingly for many products. There was some evidence that was evening out in the past while, but it was a significant factor.

Go raibh maith agat, Taoiseach. Tá an t-am caite.

In Ireland in particular, as in other European countries, a lot of expenditure has been allocated by Government to cushion the blows and support businesses during the Covid crisis and as we emerge from it.

I recognise that we are in the middle of a global crisis and I have intervened on that issue twice in the past few days. However, there is also a real crisis nationally in the community and voluntary sector, which provides services for children and families. While I will refer to the situation in Sligo-Leitrim this morning, this is a nationwide issue.

The community and voluntary boards in Sligo-Leitrim provide and run services funded by Tusla but they are not in a position to pay their staff decent wages commensurate with their experience and qualifications. These boards are not in a position financially to pay increments to their staff, ensure that they have pension contributions or fund paid maternity and paternity leave. Many staff have no comprehensive sick pay arrangements. The boards provide supports and services for children, young people and families. They include home-based, targeted family supports to which clients are referred by the child and adolescent mental health service, CAMHS, disability services, local GPs and schools. The services provide supports to early school leavers, asylum seekers, refugees and Travellers and also provide parenting programmes.

The voluntary and community boards provide an extensive range of quality, professional caring services. The different services and their staff are held in high esteem because of the conscientious, caring and responsive nature of the services they provide. At one level, you might say money could not buy this service and that is, on another level, true. The services are run by voluntary boards, thereby saving the State huge sums of money. Critically, however, and this is why I refer to a crisis, many of the staff who provide these invaluable services are stuck on the bottom rung of pay structures. Many of them are ten or 15 years in the service but have received just one or, in some cases, no increments. There is no salary scale for staff and no financial credit for training and experience. Yes, there has been a core funding increase for family resource services, which is good. That core funding has gone to provide extra services and that is excellent. However, none of it is for family support workers, counsellors, youth workers, play therapists and the other staff who deliver the services. In Sligo-Leitrim alone, these services interact with several thousand families and children.

I know the Taoiseach will not disagree about the value of the services but, in order for them to provide a quality, nationwide service, including to the people of Sligo and Leitrim, they must be adequately funded. This requires not just a block grant but the ring fencing of a proportion of that money to ensure the staff who provide the service are paid a decent wage.

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. I share her admiration for all who work in the community and voluntary sector, particularly those working under the aegis of Tusla, which provides a range of services, as the Deputy said, right across the board, including family resource centres, home-based supports, supporting early school leavers and much more. The fundamental point is that in the Child and Family Agency Act 2013, under which Tusla was established, it is stipulated very clearly that the funding arrangement for such community and voluntary bodies does not give rise to an employment relationship between a service provider, its employees or agents on the one hand and the agency on the other.

In the last while there have been significant funding increases to the bodies that work with or are funded by Tusla. As the Deputy knows, Tusla is not the employer itself. There are about 121 family resource centres with a core annual budget of €18 million and that has been raised in the context of the national employers group and by trade unions such as SIPTU in numerous representations to the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. Tusla provides funding to those bodies and to more than 600 community and voluntary sector bodies to deliver services on its behalf under sections 56 to 59 of the Child and Family Agency Act 2013. About €130 million in Tusla funding has gone to such bodies for a broad range of family supports. Increased sustainability funding of about 4% to those services as part of the Tusla budget comes to an extra €40 million in 2022’s budget for these bodies, which is a significant enough increase. It has been the way since the inception and establishment of Tusla to provide core budgets to these organisations. The annual allocations from Tusla for these budgets have been increased, particularly during the Covid period and in the 2022 budget a significant increase was allocated to Tusla for these community and voluntary bodies that are associated with its agreement for family supports.

The Taoiseach is right that there has been an increase in funding and services. I welcome that and I stated that but those services are delivered by staff; by the workers who man those services. The Taoiseach said himself that this has been the way since it started but I would put it to him that it is time to change or at least review that. The average salary in these organisations is €33,000 per annum, yet the average wage in Ireland in 2019, based on CSO information, is between €40,000 and €49,000. Most of these staff have level 9 qualifications or master’s degrees and they provide the services that are invaluable to families and young people. It is not good enough to stand back and say that Tusla has increased the funding. Part of that money should be written into the tender or the public procurement and set aside. Do not ask me how to do it as there are enough experts to figure that out but part of that money must go to ensure that the staff who provide those services have decent jobs and wages and want to remain in the service because staff retention is a huge issue which we need to act on.

I accept the Deputy’s genuine commitment to this sector and I have been engaged with many of the bodies over the years on the services they provide. Funding has been significantly increased and in the most recent budget, apart from the additional funding that was provided to Tusla by the Minister following the discussion on the Estimates, further funding of about €650,000 was provided from the dormant accounts programme to family resource centres in 2021. A further €1 million in dormant accounts funding also went to the family resource centres to progress minor maintenance works, the purchase of the central office and so on. The Deputy is talking about salaries and pay and conditions for those who work in the various bodies or for those who work providing services that would receive grants and core funding from Tusla. There are various mechanisms by which these issues are pursued such as the Workplace Relations Commission and so forth.

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