Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate – Dáil Éireann (33rd Dáil) – Thursday, 3 Mar 2022

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Domestic, Sexual and Gender-based Violence

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Public consultation opened recently on the third national strategy on domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. It is an important public consultation. Next week is International Women's Day. Today, the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Gender Equality began its work with public hearings to advance the recommendations of the citizens' assembly.

Today I want to take the opportunity to remember the most extreme end of inequality for women, that is their deaths at the hands of men, femicide that persists in our society and that we felt so keenly in January with the loss of Ashling Murphy. At that stage, on 19 January, I began to put on the record of the Dáil the names of the women who had lost their lives over the past 27 years. Today I will read into the record the names of the 17 women who lost their lives in the month of February going back over the 27 years and the 15 women who lost their lives in the month of March going back over the 27 years.

In the month of February, those women were Fiona Sinnott, Catherine Hegarty, Rachel Sandeman, Nancy Nolan, Mary Whelan, Cliona Magner, Natasha Gray, Lindita Kukaj, Siobhan Kearney, Melanie McCarthy McNamara, Sarah Regan, Olivia Dunlea O'Brien, Deirdre Keenan, Sonia Blount, Joanne Ball, Mary O'Keeffe, Sharon Bennett. I also want to mention Marie Greene and Ciara Breen who went missing on the same day 14 years apart and who have never been found.

In the month of March over the last 27 years 15 women who lost their lives in this way. They also deserve to have their names recognised in the Dáil as part of our work to try to end this practice of violence against women. They were Mary Molumby, Sandra Tobin, Mary Callinan, Sylvia Shiels, Layla Brennan, Liu Qing, Joan Power, Rosie Collinson, Celia Bailey, Katarzyna Barowiak, Noreen Kelly Eadon, Deirdre McCarthy, Mary Dargan, Nicola Collins, Cathy Ward.

All of these women were voiceless in the violence that occurred against them. They were voiceless in their deaths. They were voiceless in the manner of the reporting of their deaths and how their stories were handled by media afterwards. They were voiceless in the legacy that was left behind them in what had happened to their families. All of this happened without any of their consent and all of it happened to them. I want to continue to take the opportunity to give them the dignity of their names read into the Official Report even if we can do nothing to give them their voices back.

The work of the third strategy on domestic, sexual and gender-based violence is so important. It is so welcome that it is now at the stage of being open to public consultation. I have seen criticism that this consultation delays the strategy but it is so important. If we cannot have the input of society into this strategy prior to its finalisation, it is not going to be as effective as it has the opportunity to be. We saw across Ireland the hundreds of thousands of people who expressed a view on violence against women, who came out and stood in solidarity with the family of Ashling Murphy.

We need to continue that work and not forget it. At the time, it was a big issue here in the Dáil and a big event on media that was given a lot of coverage. As we said then, it is about not letting that focus go, not dropping the issue and continuing to raise and follow it up consistently to ensure Ashling's death is not another death of a woman that is on the cover pages for a week only for interest to fall away afterwards. Will the Minister of State, on behalf of the Government, provide an update on this matter?

Minister of State at the Department of Education (Deputy Josepha Madigan)

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. I know it is something that is close to her heart and on which she has been advocating for a significant period. It is quite poignant to hear the names of the women who died in February and March over the past 27 years. It is good that their names have been put on the Dáil record, which is some sort of acknowledgement. As the Deputy correctly said, they have been made voiceless in myriad different ways. I agree with her that following Ashling Murphy's death in particular, we must keep the momentum going and keep raising this matter in the House. I very much welcome that the subject has been raised as a Topical Issue matter.

The Minister for Justice would like to assure the Deputy that she is committed to tackling domestic, sexual and gender-based violence in all its forms and to ensure people, particularly women and vulnerable persons, feel and are safe in our communities. As the Deputy will know, the Minister, Deputy McEntee, along with the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integrity and Youth, Deputy O'Gorman, commissioned an independent audit of how responsibility for domestic, sexual and gender-based violence is segmented across Government. Separately, Tusla has conducted a review of accommodation services for victims of such violence. Both of these audits were carried out with a view to determining what efficiencies and improvements need to be introduced in how we manage domestic, sexual and gender-based violence responses and services. On foot of the audits and following extensive consultation with the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integrity and Youth, it has been agreed that the Department of Justice will now have responsibility for service provision in the area of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence while also continuing to lead on policy in this area.

Work is under way on how this will be structured and I understand further details will be announced in the coming weeks. As part of this, the establishment of a new statutory agency to address domestic, sexual and gender-based violence is under consideration. In tandem, the Minister, Deputy McEntee, has been working on the new national strategy on domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, in partnership with those who work on the front lines. Their voices will be critical to its success and will help to ensure the new strategy is targeted, comprehensive, effective and, most importantly, victim-centred. It will be the most ambitious plan to date in this area and will be structured around the four pillars or goals of the Istanbul Convention, namely, prevention, prosecution, protection and co-ordinated policies. It will set an overall goal of zero tolerance in our society for domestic, sexual and gender-based violence.

The Deputy may have seen, the week before last, that the Minister briefed those working in the sector on the progress of the strategy and shared the draft document with them. She also launched a wider public consultation on the new strategy on 17 February. That public consultation is in the form of an online survey that asks people's views on domestic, sexual and gender-based violence and what they would like to see in the new strategy. For example, it asks what people think the emphasis of the strategy should be, how we can improve supports for victims, how we can better educate our young people and how we can change attitudes across society. It also asks, among many other questions, whether our laws are strong enough to provide justice for victims. The consultation is available through the Department of Justice website and there already have been more than 1,000 submissions. I am sure the Deputy will join me in encouraging everyone to engage and make their views known on this important topic before the consultation ends next Thursday. It is a short enough consultation and we encourage everybody, male or female, to give us their views.

The finalised strategy is expected to be brought to Government this spring. When published, it will be accompanied by a detailed action plan setting out how specific actions under these aims will be achieved, who is responsible for them and the timeframe for delivery.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

I thank the Minister of State for her response and the update she gave. I note that some of the recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly on gender equality are already being met by the steps being taken towards the delivery of a strategy on domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. That is very important.

What lies behind my reading out of the women's names is an effort to identify the circumstances of each of them, who they were, where they were and what happened to them on the day they died. We have been putting that information on Instagram to tell their stories and try to keep the momentum going on this issue. For my staff and the people who work around me, it is a deeply distressing issue to be dealing with every day. We do not regret beginning this work but it is important to acknowledge that it takes an emotional toll even on us, as far removed as we are. We are trying to keep telling the stories of the women and families. I named 32 women, each of whom had a family who are now without her and have been for up to 27 years.

At the end of January, a walk took place with the family of Urantsetseg Tserendorj from where she worked in the International Financial Services Centre to her home in Dublin 1, just off Talbot Street. When I went on that walk on a rainy January night, what was so striking was just how short it is. It is a short and ordinary route and the attack took place in the late evening. I still cannot get over how short and ordinary a route it is. To lose one's life in such a normal course of events is absolutely appalling. I thank the Ceann Comhairle for the opportunity to raise this issue, which I will continue to do throughout the year in an effort to maintain the momentum of remembering these women, recognising that the Minister for Justice and her Department are doing the work from a policy perspective. Much of this is about changing attitudes and we cannot do that if we allow this issue to slip off the front pages and into the shadows until something else happens.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

Again, I commend the Deputy on her work in this area. I have seen her output on social media, including Instagram, and how effective it can be. She is right about the effect on people, even if we are just reading about it. Even the fact that so many women have lost their lives takes an emotional toll. The Deputy's work is good because it keeps their memory alive and gives credence to the momentum we are trying to maintain. Regarding the walk she mentioned, fear of harassment and violence should never be normalised. For those of us who have spoken about being victims in whatever way that transpired, it takes an emotional toll as well. Those stories are really important because this can happen to anybody, whether on a long or short walk, in the daytime or at night. The sort of gratuitous violence that can occur in Irish society is really regrettable and should not happen.

One of the ways to raise awareness and change attitudes, as the Deputy spoke about, is for us, as women, to talk about the issue here in the Dáil Chamber and also to get men involved in talking about it. The work done by the Government is obviously also important. The Ministers, Deputies McEntee and O'Gorman, are at pains to tell us about the work they are doing and that work is significant. They already have substantially increased the budget for 2022 for supports for dealing with domestic, sexual and gender-based violence and measures to confront and deal with the types of issues that are happening at a societal level. There is also significant investment being made by An Garda Síochána more generally and through other mechanisms as well. The consultation on the strategy concludes next Thursday and people need to make their views known. This is a real opportunity to get it right and transform society in order that women who want to go about their normal daily business can feel safe in the same way that men do. Obviously, men also can suffer from violence, but it is predominantly women who experience this particular type of violence. That is what this strategy endeavours to achieve and we hope it will be a success in ensuring we have a shared goal of a zero-tolerance approach to domestic, sexual and gender-based violence.

Offshore Islands

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Tháinig sé mar cheist iontais agus uafáis dom nach bhfuil oileánaigh clúdaithe faoin scéim a fógraíodh go mbeidh laghdú 20% sna táillí taistil ar fud na tíre. Sin ach amháin d’oileánaigh. Tá sé dochreidte go dtarlódh a leithéid agus go bhfágfaí an pobal is mó atá ag brath ar thaisteal poiblí amach as an scéim. Níl aon bhealach isteach agus amach ó na hoileáin ach ar iompar poiblí. Tá súil agam go mbeidh dea-scéal ag an Aire Stáit inniu. Mura bhfuil, coinneoidh mé orm ag troid. Níl aon mhaith d’aon duine a rá gur ceist airgid é seo mar tá €54 milliún á chaitheamh ar an scéim seo ar fud na tíre agus tá sé oibrithe amach ó na figiúirí atá agam go gcosnódh sé idir €50,000 agus €100,000 an cheist seo a chur ina cheart.

The Minister of State can imagine my surprise when I submitted a parliamentary question to her colleague and found out that islanders, who are totally dependent on public transport to and from the islands, be it air transport in the case of the Aran Islands or boat transport in the case of the Aran Islands and all others, would not benefit from the 20% reduction in public service fares that people from the rest of the country are due to enjoy come 1 April. The first thought that went through my mind was that this was an April fool's joke given that the most isolated, namely those who cannot get off an island without public transport, are the ones left out of the scheme.

I raised the question with the Minister on 17 February and got an answer stating islanders were not included and that Departments were being consulted. It is now March, however, and the clock is ticking. I have no doubt that the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform will be able to raise €50,000 to €100,000. I doubt that this is even margin-of-error funding given that the scheme is to cost €54 million. It seems that the Department of Rural and Community Development should put a scheme to the Minister. I have no doubt that my colleague will come up trumps.

I hope the Minister of State will allay my concerns and ensure genuine equality on this island, the result being that a simple oversight that should not have arisen when the scheme went to Cabinet will be corrected and that she will be able to confirm to me that islanders will enjoy the same reduction that those from the rest of the country will enjoy from 1 April.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

I thank the Deputy. I am taking this topic on behalf of the Minister for Community and Rural Development, Deputy Humphreys.

The sustainability of the communities on our offshore islands is a core objective of the Government, as set out in its rural development policy. The policy acknowledges the importance for island communities of access to reliable, safe and affordable connectivity services to and from the mainland. Contracts for these services are procured by the Department of Rural and Community Development on the open market through the procurement process. This ensures that all providers are treated equally and that the selection process is fair and transparent to all.

The fare reduction scheme recently announced by the Department of Transport will see an average reduction of 20% on transport services managed by the National Transport Authority, NTA, on its behalf. The scheme covers all bus and train services on all NTA networks. It is important to note, however, that all other subsidised transport services managed by the Department of Transport, such as the public service obligation, PSO, air services to Donegal and Kerry, are not covered by the scheme. I understand the Deputy has received a communication in this regard. Similarly, the subsidised transport services to the offshore islands, which services are managed by my Department, do not qualify for the scheme. Unlike the services managed by the NTA, offshore islands have a mix of subsidised and non-subsidised transport services. The introduction of a fare reduction scheme for subsidised services would put private operators at a disadvantage. They would be entitled to seek legal redress if a subsidised service were to get a competitive advantage, such as subsidised fares, on a designated route.

Furthermore, many subsidised operators provide extra sailings beyond what is subsidised, and those extra sailings would not be entitled to the reduction. A fare reduction scheme that applied to subsidised sailings only would create fare inconsistencies for both service operators and users. All the contracted air, ferry and cargo services managed by the Department are procured according to an open and fair procedure. Providing a fare reduction scheme for chosen suppliers would undermine those procedures and be inherently unfair. As any fare reduction scheme for the subsidised service to the islands would have to be implemented in a manner that would be fair to all providers, the Department has no plans to proceed with a scheme at this time. However, I note what the Deputy has said and will put his comments to the Minister, Deputy Humphreys. I acknowledge what the Deputy has said about equality for islanders and will also relay that sentiment to the Minister.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Minister of State. Orwell-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

This is the most Orwellian and misinformed reply I have ever received in this House. Whoever wrote it forgot that I actually put the existing schemes in place. I hope the Minister of State will listen carefully to how the scheme works. Tenders are sought for services to the islands. According to the tender arrangements, only the islander fare is dictated by the Department. Tourists and non-islanders visiting an island pay at the commercial rate. All I seek is that the 20% apply to the islander fare, which is fixed as part of the contract. Since it would be foolish for an islander to pay a non-subsidised fare to an island, because it would probably be much higher, most of the Minister of State's answer is totally misinformed regarding how the system works. That the Department is more misinformed regarding how the system works than I am is hard to understand.

I first raised concerns in this House regarding the availability of peat to the Irish horticultural sector, in particular the mushroom sector, in July 2020. I was told by the then Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine that his Department was working as part of a cross-departmental group evaluating the use of peat in the commercial horticultural sector. At that point, the problems were evident. The scandalous situation whereby huge quantities of Irish peat had been exported was to be replaced by an equally scandalous situation whereby peat would be imported. In September 2020, I was informed by the current Minister, Deputy McConalogue, that following the report of the cross-departmental group, the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, had set up a working group to consider the impacts on the sector. Then, over the following ten months, while a sector with a farm gate value of almost €500 million and supporting nearly 18,000 jobs held its breath, I submitted countless questions to Ministers, including the Ministers for Agriculture, Food and the Marine; the Environment, Climate and Communications; and Housing, Local Government and Heritage, seeking basic information that farmers were crying out for. I asked whether just transition funds would be made available to offset increased costs. I asked if any Minister was taking action to ensure a regulatory framework that would allow for peat harvesting would be put in place. I also asked if the report of the working group would be published, when it would be published and why it was delayed. I must say that trying to get any information from the Ministers was like trying to get blood out of a stone. In fact, most of the information I got came from media reports. At that time, the question I was most commonly but quietly asked was where the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine was in all of this.

I have to ask that question again now. I think the Minister is in the other House right now. Over the past month, Sinn Féin has sought Dáil debates on this issue each and every week and each request has been refused by Government. The Joint Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine sought a joint hearing with three Ministers that have responsibility in this area, namely, the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and the Minister of State at that Department, Deputy Noonan. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the Minister of State indicated they would attend only if the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications was present. The Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications refused to attend, so no hearing has taken place. None of the Ministers who have a role in resolving this issue are here for this Topical Issue debate, and there are enough of them. They include the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the Ministers of State at his Department, the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications and the Ministers of State at his Department, and the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Ministers of State at his Department. None of them could make themselves available for this debate. That is very telling, as has been the Government response to the independent report that it commissioned. The Government has actually set aside some of the report's most significant findings and recommendations, including the finding that there are currently no viable alternatives to the continued use of peat moss in the horticultural and mushroom sectors, and that emergency legislation was required before the end of last year to deliver a regulatory framework that would allow for some harvesting of peat moss in areas where there is no alternative. The working paper produced has done very little to instil confidence that progress is being made. The plain fact is that the current regulatory framework is unworkable, as found by the independent report.

It is important to state that we all recognise that environmental law must be adhered to. What is being sought is a framework in which that law works. In other EU member states, peat can be harvested for horticultural purposes in line with EU laws. The Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications has told me that the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine is now responsible for this issue. I want to know whether the Government, having essentially sat out this crisis for the past two years, is ready to take action.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

I thank Deputy Carthy for raising this important matter, which I am happy to take on behalf of the Minister, Deputy McConalogue. As the Deputy is aware, extraction of peat for the Irish professional horticultural industry in recent years has been challenging from a legal and regulatory perspective. A series of High Court judgments, beginning in the early 2010s, which dealt with peat extraction and lack of compliance across the extraction sector, has generated supply challenges, both in respect of volume and price, for the horticulture sector which continues to rely on peat as a raw growing material.

I want to highlight the importance of the horticultural sector and its significant contribution to the economy, with a farm gate value of almost €469 million in 2020. The horticultural sector is the fourth largest sector in agriculture in terms of output value. An estimated 17,600 people are employed in the sector in both primary level and value added downstream. Approximately 60% of the value of Irish horticulture is dependent on peat as a growth medium, with the mushroom, amenity and soft fruit sectors being most reliant.

The working paper to address challenges related to peat supply in the horticulture sector was put in place by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, in conjunction with the Departments of the Environment, Climate and Communications and Housing, Local Government and Heritage, following the publication of the final report of the working group on the use of peat moss in the horticultural industry. The paper sets out a series of joint actions which have been put in place to alleviate the difficulties being faced by horticultural growers who are dependent on peat as a growing medium. The actions include a range of targeted measures which reflect the multifaceted nature of the problem and the subsequent need for short-, medium- and long-term solutions. These actions were developed to address the short-term issue of peat supply, the medium-term issue of future access to peat and the longer term issue of replacement with alternatives. The ultimate ambition is to support the horticulture industry, the people employed and the many families that depend on this important sector.

As we know, peat is a finite resource and there is an acknowledgement of the need to transition to more sustainable growing media. Most amenity horticulture growers are now using reduced peat levels in growing substrate, where the peat is blended with material such as bark fibre at levels of between 10% and 30%. I welcome the general agreement across the horticulture industry that the use of peat should be phased out by 2030, or 2035 at the latest, providing alternative materials where available. However, there is also a recognition that a very limited amount of peat may be required for a period in certain sectors, in particular professional horticulture, until alternatives are available, affordable and sustainable and meet quality, environmental and productivity requirements for the horticulture sector. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine has continued to highlight the importance of transitional peat supply and to assist in considering solutions to this issue. In doing so, the working paper and associated actions put in place, led by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, will support Irish horticultural growers who are dependent on peat until viable alternatives are found. The Deputy mentioned the implementation of the working paper. Progress has been made on the implementation of the actions in the working paper to address challenges related to horticultural peat supply.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I must put on record that I will be asking the Ceann Comhairle to review the Topical Issue debate procedure. Perhaps the Leas-Cheann Comhairle will let the Ceann Comhairle know that. I mean no disrespect to the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan. She has a very important role in her own right. However, there is no way that we can describe this as a debate. Regardless of what I ask in my follow-up contribution, the Minister of State will read a prepared statement. That is not a debate and it is not an acceptable way for Departments to behave, particularly when we are dealing with an issue that could genuinely put entire businesses out of work.

As I mentioned, this issue crosses three Departments. For more than two years, they have essentially been dodging responsibility among themselves over what has become a real and existential crisis in the mushroom sector, as I am very aware. We had a bizarre situation where Government Senators from Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael produced legislation in the Seanad and then had to remove it because they could not get the support of their Government colleagues. The inaction and indifference of Government has meant the mushroom sector, those who work in it and the communities that depend on it are facing an existential threat due to the shortage of horticultural peat. The problem has not been resolved and shows no signs of being resolved, despite what the Minister has said.

The sector needs peat. The Government set up a working group. It commissioned a report, granted an extension to the report, considered the report and then proceeded to ignore large portions of it.

If action is not taken, we will see the further importation of huge shipments of peat from the far side of Europe - it is bizarre, frankly - where we have no environmental oversight whatsoever, rather than the limited extraction of peat the sector is seeking in order to allow those in the sector to continue in business until alternatives to peat are found. The language is right but the actions need to be there. I know it is not the responsibility of the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, but, frankly, the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, needs to step up to the mark and be willing to engage in debate on this issue.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

As the Deputy acknowledged, this issue is not within my remit but, nevertheless, I was happy to take it for the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, who is indisposed. I hear the Deputy's frustration regarding the lack of information. Perhaps I should say the alleged lack of information because obviously I am not up to speed with the minutiae of this issue. I do know, however, the key importance of the professional horticulture industry to Irish jobs, the economy and our food safety and security. I reassure the Deputy the Government is working as a priority to assist the horticultural industry in resolving the issues in respect of peat harvesting and managing the difficult but necessary transition away from the widespread use of peat for horticultural purposes in the coming years.

I have taken a note of the Deputy's remarks in respect of emergency legislation to provide a regulatory framework, as well as the fact that he mentioned the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, and the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan. I will speak to them and let them know the Deputy has raised this issue. It is clear that any realistic solution needs to find a workable interim arrangement to allow the Irish horticultural industry to operate while alternatives to the widespread use of peat are identified and put in place. I am aware there are no simple solutions to something like this but I reassure the Deputy that the Government is committed to exploring every opportunity to alleviate the difficulties for growers, their businesses and their families during this period of transition away from the use of peat. I will certainly bring his comments to the three Ministers and it is to be hoped they will revert back to the Deputy on the issue.

National Maternity Hospital

Deputy Joan Collins

Like Deputies Ó Cuív and Carthy, I wish to again register my frustration. When we put down these questions, we expect the Minister to be here. I wish to put on record that the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, seems to be operating not only at arm's length from the Dáil, but maybe at bridge length from it at this stage. The Minister of State will deliver a standard reply she got from the Department or whatever. I do not think it is good enough on an issue as important as the new national maternity hospital.

There have been three Private Members' motions proposing that the national maternity hospital should be publicly owned, run and controlled. The motions were accepted by the Government. That is an important point. The Taoiseach has come out and said it should be publicly owned. The decision was made in 2013 to relocate the maternity hospital from Holles Street to co-locate on the Elm Park site at St. Vincent's Hospital. That was the KPMG report, which was accepted by the then Minister for Health, James Reilly. This led to a dispute with St. Vincent's Healthcare Group, SVHG, which rejected co-location and demanded full ownership of the new national maternity hospital.

SVHG is a private company owned by the Religious Sisters of Charity. It is a section 38 body fully funded by the State. The Religious Sisters of Charity have now set up a new private company, St. Vincent's Holdings, into which they have said they will transfer their shares in St. Vincent's Healthcare Group, though that has not yet happened, obviously. It has been reported recently that the Minister and the Department have had meaningful negotiations and arrived at some sort of proposition that would be imminently brought to Cabinet. I am seriously concerned about this because it is a fact that not one hospital in the whole world that is run privately by a religious order allows reproductive rights procedures to be carried out.

Professor Shane Higgins, the master of the National Maternity Hospital, featured on a radio programme to discuss the letter he and his colleagues wrote to the Taoiseach and the Minister for Health on 23 February this year. In the letter, they sought to give assurances on the provision of certain procedures at the planned new maternity hospital and to dismiss what they described as misleading and ill-informed commentary from certain Deputies and other people that is derailing the project. I reject and refute that comment. There are significant concerns in respect of the actual procedures that will be provided in this hospital. It is a 299-year lease, which is a massive extension from the 99-year lease to the hospital. It will cost more than €1 billion of public money to build and more than €70 million of public money to run. We want to make sure that every woman and man who needs reproductive procedures in the new national maternity hospital has access to them without being referred elsewhere.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

I am sorry to disappoint the Deputy that I am not the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly. He too was not disposed today to take this Topical Issue matter but I am happy to take it on his behalf.

I know the Deputy, like many other Members, has a strong interest in the ownership and governance arrangements of the new national maternity hospital and I welcome the opportunity to address the House on the issue. The Government is committed to the development of the new national maternity hospital, as set out in the programme for Government, as the Deputy is aware. The proposed corporate and clinical governance arrangements for the new national maternity hospital are set out in the Mulvey agreement. This was finalised following extensive mediation between the National Maternity Hospital and the St. Vincent's Healthcare Group and has been published for a considerable time.

The Mulvey agreement provides for the establishment of a new company to run the new hospital under a service level agreement with the HSE, as happens in the current National Maternity Hospital. This new company will have clinical and operational, as well as financial and budgetary, independence in the provision of health services in the new national maternity hospital. A draft legal framework has been developed based on this agreement and aims to copper-fasten these arrangements. This legal framework will address the State's core objectives, which are: first, to ensure all clinically appropriate services that are legally permissible are provided for women who need them in the new national maternity hospital; second, to prevent any undue influence, religious or otherwise, in the operation of the new hospital; and third, to protect the State's investment in terms of capital, revenue and service provision at the new hospital for the public good.

There are certain key points which are important to reiterate to the House. First, I recognise that concerns continue to circulate regarding the potential involvement of the Religious Sisters of Charity in the new national maternity hospital. Indeed, the Deputy has raised those concerns here today. However, the Minister for Health has been clear and informs me the order will not play any role in the governance or operation of our new national maternity hospital. In fact, the Religious Sisters of Charity have resigned from the board of SVHG and their shareholding is to be transferred to a new charitable entity, St. Vincent's Holdings. The constitution of St Vincent's Holdings has been published and anyone who has seen that document will know it makes no reference whatsoever to canon law. The Department of Health has previously been advised in writing by SVHG that canon law will not impact on St Vincent's Holdings. In addition, it has been stated previously that the Government will not be asked to approve any legal arrangements unless they ensure that all legally permissible services will be provided in the new hospital, as well as appropriately protecting the State's investment.

We know the buildings at Holles Street are no longer fit for purpose. It is essential that we move forward and build the new national maternity hospital and provide the necessary infrastructure to facilitate the delivery of a safe and high-quality maternity service for women and infants. We will do that with all the necessary safeguards and assurances in place. There is a process ongoing to finalise the legal arrangements.

The Minister for Health will not be making any further comment on this matter until the process of engagement and deliberation regarding the legal arrangements has concluded.

Deputy Joan Collins

I thank the Minister of State for her reply. First of all, the Religious Sisters of Charity have physically gone from SVHG but their canon law has not. They have got permission from the Vatican and the Irish Catholic Bishops Conference to go ahead with this deal. Under canon law, St. Vincent's Hospital is the property of the Catholic Church. I did not hear anything in the Minister of State’s response to say it will not continue to use canon law while it gets the national maternity hospital. That is my very significant concern and that of many Deputies and many people outside of this Chamber. It must be made very clear that canon law has absolutely no input into this national maternity hospital.

I looked at the ownership structure. There will be St. Vincent's Holdings. Under that there will be the SVHG, and under that there will be St. Vincent's public, St. Vincent's Holdings private, St. Michael's and the national maternity hospital. The St. Vincent's Holdings board, the SVHG board, the SVHG group CEO, the group clinical director, the clinical directors and all of the practices and consultants, etc., will be under that clinical governance structure. It is quite clear that the clinical governance here is the canon law governance of Mary Aikenhead, under which the hospital is run. The Minister should be more open to meeting Members of the Dáil to let us know what is going on. In this deal, seemingly they just agreed with what they could do under law, but did not extend it to future legislation that could be brought in. It is too dodgy.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

I would like to reassure the Deputy. I set out my understanding in my original contribution to this House. In fact, I said that canon law plays no part in the new maternity hospital. I have said that on a number of occasions here, including my initial contribution, and I will say it again to the Deputy. The House can be assured that maternity and reproductive healthcare at the new hospital will not be compromised. The Minister for Health is adamant about what will happen. He will not bring any proposal to the Government unless it provides assurances around all legally permissible services being provided in the new hospital and ensuring the State’s significant investment in the new hospital is appropriately protected. I hope that will give the Deputy some comfort. The Government is committed to this key project in the way I have set out. The Deputy mentioned clinical governance and it is not canon law and we are quite clear on that.

I emphasise that the Government is fully committed to promoting and improving women’s health outcomes more generally. That commitment is reflected in budget 2022, which includes a spend of €31 million for new development funding specifically to support women’s health. The relocation of the national maternity hospital is a very significant part of the Government’s objectives in that regard. We remain committed to providing the highest quality infrastructure and environment to facilitate the delivery of a modern, safe and quality maternity service for women and infants over many years to come. I note that the Deputy has mentioned that it is a 299-year lease. It is important that there is no canon law involved in it and there will not be, which is my understanding of this.

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 3 Mar 2022