Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 24 May 2022

Vol. 1022 No. 5

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Island Communities

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

There was an understanding in the previous Dáil that the Minister would come in and, if the Minister was not available, the Deputy would have the option of deferring the matter until the Minister was available to come into the House. No such option was afforded to me. We are back to the bad old days. Bad habits die hard in this House. The Acting Chairman has been here much longer than I am and he knows as well as I do that one brings and progresses something but the minute one's back is turned, it regresses to the old system.

I raised this issue immediately after the announcement that bus and rail fares were to be reduced by 20% on the mainland. When I raised it with the Minister, I was given a number of reasons why it could not happen. I pursued the matter in our parliamentary party with the Taoiseach and spoke to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Michael McGrath, who had no problem funding any change. After that, I was told the matter was referred to the Attorney General.

What was the big problem on the islands? I was told it was that there are private companies providing services to the islands and that that was not the case with bus and train services. That is not true. For example, Expressway does not benefit from the 20%, nor do the many other private companies providing regular bus services. On the other hand, as I told the Minister the first day, there is a unique arrangement on the islands because there are contracted services put out to public tender. In putting them out to public tender, there is a unique islander rate. If an islander goes on the contracted service, he or she does not pay the commercial fare but a rate predetermined by the Department. I introduced that process. I remember setting the adult return fee at €8, no matter what boat service was taken or how far out into the sea it went. That was the maximum. It was €5 for students and youth and nothing for those under five years of age. That was raised to €10. This is unique. If you go on the private operator that operates commercially, there is no obligation on that operator to provide that service. That is the rate we want reduced. We do not want to touch the commercial rates, which are a matter for the operator. As I remember, the operator stated the commercial rate and set the rate, whereas the islander rate was set by the Department. I had hoped that in the intervening weeks, the Department would have looked at the issue instead of giving the push-off.

The other thing those in the Department seem to think extraordinary is that this is for buses and trains and I am looking to apply it to an air service to the Aran Islands and a boat service. I was on Inis Mór today at a funeral and there is not much point in offering a train service from that island to the mainland. We do not have underwater rail. Nor is a bus service practical. I do not think the mode of transport makes much difference. I ask for this issue to be dealt with and for the islander-only unique fares to be reduced by 20% forthwith. The year is going on, the scheme has been in place for nearly two months and we have no movement on it.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice (Deputy James Browne)

I thank the Deputy for raising this important matter. The sustainability of communities on our offshore islands is a core objective of the Government as set out in the rural development policy for 2021 to 2025, Our Rural Future. The policy acknowledges the importance to island communities of access to reliable, safe and affordable connectivity services to and from the mainland. Contracts for these services are procured by the Department of Rural and Community Development on the open market through the procurement process. This ensures all providers are treated equally and the selection process is fair and transparent for all.

The Department of Transport recently introduced a fare reduction scheme that sees an average 20% reduction on PSO public transport services managed by the National Transport Authority. The scheme covers public transport services operated by Iarnród Éireann, Bus Éireann, Dublin Bus, Luas, Go-Ahead Ireland and TFI Local Link. It is important to note that other subsidised transport services managed by the Department of Transport, such as the PSO air service to Donegal and Kerry, are not covered by the scheme. Similarly, the subsidised transport services managed by the Department of Rural and Community Development to the offshore islands do not qualify for the scheme. Unlike the services managed by the NTA, offshore islands have a mix of subsidised and non-subsidised transport services. While the Department is open to examining ways of ensuring island transport services are affordable, it is concerned that the introduction of a fare reduction scheme for subsidised services could bring the existing contracts and procurement processes into disrepute. All of the contracted air, ferry and cargo services managed by the Department are procured in an open and fair procedure. Providing a fare reduction scheme for chosen suppliers could have the potential to undermine those procedures and may lead to reduced services to the islands, particularly with regard to non-subsidised services and other private operators who may be placed at a disadvantage. The Minister has sought advice from the Attorney General on the matter and officials continue to engage thereon.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

The Minister of State is a very fair and, more important, highly intelligent man. I am sure he was embarrassed reading that out. The red herring of the PSO Donegal and Kerry services can be put aside because there are buses going to Donegal and buses and trains going to Kerry, right to the airport in the case of Kerry. It does not quite work that way when you are trying to get to an island.

The Minister of State stated that the subsidised transport services managed by the Department of Rural and Community Development to the offshore islands do not qualify for the scheme. We know that. That is why I am standing here. However, the Minister of State did not give us the reason, other than that the Minister will not do it. The Minister of State then said that if the €10 standard fare for islanders were reduced to €8, it would bring the scheme into disrepute. When I was Minister, I did exactly that. It used to be much higher and variable. I set the rate and, rather than being in disrepute on the island, I think I was held in high esteem. The Minister of State then made the point that if the small number of islanders, relative to the number of tourists and other people who go to the island, got this small reduction, it would undermine the commercial non-contracted services. The Minister of State must have cringed reading that out because if you have a guaranteed €10 fare and the normal tourist fare is €20, why would you take the transport for €20 when it is available in the contracted service at the predetermined rate?

Furthermore, I ask the Minister of State to name all the islands that have private services running in parallel with the services contracted by the Department. I have a fair knowledge of the islands. There may be one or two with such private services but they are few and far between. If he does not have the answers tonight, I ask him to go back to the Department and the Minister and request that they address this issue in a written reply.

Deputy James Browne

I certainly hear the Deputy's cogent and well-thought-out points and I will bring them to the attention of the Minister, who, unfortunately, cannot be here. On the PSO routes managed by the NTA, the Department of Rural and Community Development does not subsidise all services and all routes, as has been stated, and careful consideration, therefore, must be given to any change that could substantially alter the contracts or put private operators at a disadvantage. I have certainly heard what the Deputy has to say and I will bring his concerns to the attention of the Minister.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I appreciate that. I thank the Minister of State for cutting his reply short. It would have been a further embarrassment if he did not do so.

Energy Policy

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the Office of the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this issue, and the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, for being here to respond to it.

Last Friday, I attended a seminar in Cobh organised by Cobh and Harbour Chamber. There were some serious people there representing the energy sector. The focus was on renewables and the great potential that exists in Cork Harbour in particular for renewables such as offshore wind and so forth. Several of those present expressed concern, however, in respect of the State energy security framework into the future, and next winter in particular. Ireland's natural gas supply is dependent on imports from a single source in the UK, namely, Moffat, in Scotland, while the Corrib gas field, which is depleting, supplies approximately one quarter of the State's annual needs. We now have a serious situation in Europe, with a challenge to gas supplies. The national energy security framework, published in April 2022, states:

[I]t should be noted that the UK's indigenous production is decreasing, resulting in increased imports of liquified natural gas. In 2020, Russia supplied over 40% of the EU's natural gas. Reduced supplies of gas from Russia could have knock on effects for Ireland.

If there are pressures on the UK, there could be a domino effect. We are at the end of the pipeline. What are the contingency plans for next winter if the gas supply reduces? If that happens, electricity generation, heating and power supply generally will be hit. What are the contingencies in that regard?

I have tabled parliamentary questions in respect of floating storage regasification units. Other countries are using them. They are importing liquefied natural gas, LNG. The response to the parliamentary questions I tabled seems to mix up fracked gas with LNG. Is analysis being carried out at the moment in respect of floating storage regasification units? It is one answer here. There may be another answer that I am missing. If that pipeline from Moffat is under pressure, however, we will be in serious trouble and people will suffer. It is bad enough having very high prices; it will be something different altogether if we do not have gas at all. This is very serious.

I know that a review is ongoing and will be delivered in quarter 3 of 2022. That could be the end of September or October. By that stage, the winter will be on us and it will be too late to do anything. What are the contingency plans in the case of this happening? The Government's own framework states, "we need to be adequately prepared to deal with supply issues, should they materialise". What preparation has been made? The national energy security framework is very good but it heads out to 2030 and 2050. I want to find out about what we are going to do next winter and next September. Let us not forget that there were several occasions last winter when the generation capacity was under pressure.

I know the Minister spoke about making available further generation capacity in Dublin with more gas burning units. If there is no gas to burn in those units, however, what good are they? This is very serious. It is probably one of the most serious issues facing the State. The Government or the Minister of State may have a response on this issue this evening. It may be that contingency plans are being worked on. I would like to know what they are and I think the people would too.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications (Deputy Ossian Smyth)

I thank the Deputy for asking this important question. Ireland imports approximately three quarters of its natural gas from the UK, with the remainder coming from the Corrib field. The UK has a diverse supply of gas, including indigenous UK gas, Norwegian gas, liquefied natural gas and via interconnectors with Belgium and the Netherlands. The UK and, by extension, Ireland are not heavily reliant on Russian gas, although the actions by Russia have placed upward pressure on gas and, consequently, electricity prices. Ireland has no gas storage or LNG.

The national energy security framework, published in April 2022, sets out the response of the Government to the Ukraine crisis in the context of natural gas, oil and electricity. The framework provides a single overarching initial response to address Ireland's energy security needs in the context of the war in Ukraine. The development of this framework has taken account of the need to decarbonise our society and economy as set out in recent reports by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, IPCC, as well as Ireland's targets to reduce emissions by 51% over the decade to 2030 and reach net zero emissions by 2050 as set out in the climate action plan. The framework sets out the Government's action in response to these issues across key themes as follows: managing the impact on consumers and businesses; ensuring security of energy supply in the near term; and reducing our dependency on imported fossil fuels.

The Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications has established a new energy security emergency group, chaired by the Secretary General, which is co-ordinating and overseeing national-level activity and responses in the context of the impact of the war on energy security. The group includes representatives of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, the National Oil Reserves Agency, the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, Gas Networks Ireland, EirGrid and the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland. The work of the group includes: overseeing the implementation of the national energy security framework, which has set out the national responses to the impacts on the energy sector; co-ordinating a response to support consumers and businesses, with a focus on financially vulnerable households and those in or at risk of energy poverty; and ensuring emergency plans are up to date and stress-tested.

At EU level, measures are in place to address the implications of the war in Ukraine, including any disruption of gas from Russia. These include updated risk analysis and contingency planning, and putting in place a new EU law to ensure that gas storage facilities in the EU are filled in advance of the coming winter. The European Commission is engaging with other countries to ensure sufficient and timely supply of natural gas to the EU from diverse sources across the globe to avoid supply shocks, including those that could result from disruptions.

The war in Ukraine has impacted Europe's energy system and triggered a decision by the European Union to phase out its dependency on Russian gas, oil and coal imports as soon as possible. This will also impact where and how we source that energy and change how we design energy policy to ensure the long-term resilience of the system. The European Commission's REPowerEU communication issued last Wednesday, 18 May, sets out the measures it proposes to end dependence on Russian energy by saving energy, diversifying supplies away from Russia, substituting fossil fuels by accelerating Europe's clean energy transition, removing financial and regulatory barriers to rolling out infrastructure, and ensuring member states have contingency plans to deal with any disruption in supplies from Russia. In addition, the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications is carrying out a review of the security of energy supply of Ireland's electricity and natural gas systems. It is expected that the review will be completed in the coming months and then submitted to the Government.

Coming back to the issue of the upcoming winter, Ireland is one of the countries in Europe that is least reliant on Russian gas. There is no immediate threat to our gas supplies. Notwithstanding this, in the event of any gas supply emergency, there is excellent co-operation between Irish and UK gas system operators in respect of gas supplies from the UK. This co-operation includes regular testing of emergency plans by the operators. Ireland's gas-fired power plants are capable of running on liquid fuels in the event of a gas supply disruption and have storage of fuels available.

I again thank the Deputy for raising this matter and look forward to hearing his views.

Deputy David Stanton

We could probably have a longer debate on this issue. Is there a signed agreement between the UK and Ireland in respect of Ireland's interconnectors and the flow of gas to which the Minister of State referred? It is all very fine stating there is excellent co-operation but what is the nature of that co-operation? Is it a signed agreement between the two countries? As all present are aware, the UK is no longer in the EU.

The Minister of State noted in his response that we have no storage for LNG. There is no gas storage in the State, so if anything happens to those pipelines, we are in trouble. What is the situation in respect of liquid fuels being used to power gas-fired power plants in the event of a gas supply disruption? To what liquid fuels is he referring? Is it gasoline, diesel, kerosene or something else? How much storage is there?

For how long could we depend on that? I noted that the Minister of State referred to REpowerEU. It speaks about diversifying gas supplies via higher liquified natural gas and pipeline imports from non-Russian supplies and larger volumes of biomethane and renewable hydrogen production and imports. We are nowhere on that at the moment. We are dependent on the pipeline from Scotland and that is it. What happens if there is pressure in the UK? I have read that it is a secure supply, the one secure supply in Europe, but it is the only one we have. We know the adage about having all your eggs in one basket. Having all your gas in one pipeline might not be the wisest thing either if anything happens there. I know a review is going on, which will possibly be brought forward to the end of September when the work will start. However, we are into winter then. If anything happens with this gas from the UK, we are in trouble. We must remember that there is a lot of pressure in Europe and further afield. The Minister of State mentioned Norway and Denmark. If the squeeze happens at that end and it transfers into Britain and then here, we are in trouble and we have no contingency plan. The Minister of State has not outlined anything that gives me any solace that there is a contingency plan. If there is storage of LNG in Europe, how does it get here? How do we get it here if the pipeline from Britain is out of action or reduced in some way?

Deputy Ossian Smyth

The first question is the nature of the legal agreement between Ireland and the UK on the supply of gas. I will have to consult the Civil Service to give Deputy Stanton an exact answer on that. I do not, however, think it is a gentlemen’s agreement between the two countries. The next question was about the form of liquid back-up for the gas supply plans. I believe it is gas oil and liquid distillate, so it is between those two fuel sources. In regard to how much is available, the National Oil Reserve Agency, NORA, is the statutory body that provides for back-up of liquid fuels in Europe. I believe every country is required to maintain 90 days' supply. That is a mixture of different fuels, everything from crude oil to petrol and every distillate in between. I presume that some of that is allocated but I can get a better answer for Deputy Stanton.

The energy security review is coming up this autumn. The Deputy referenced the national energy security framework, which was published last month. Work has been done on that. REpowerEU is the emergency response of the EU to this energy crisis. That was proposed by the European Commission last week and I believe it will be agreed at the European Council shortly. That approaches the problem in three areas. It states we need to do more for energy efficiency; we need to source our fuels from different countries, so we need to attempt to deal with countries other than Russia; and we need to speed up the deployment of renewables in two ways, by providing new sources of finance, including common finance across the EU in green bonds, but also by speeding up the planning process, and there are specific rules about managing to be able to deploy renewables much faster than they are deployed at the moment.

Mental Health Services

Deputy Mark Ward

Over the weekend I received the devastating news from the Psychiatric Nurses Association, PNA, that 11 of the 23 CAMHS beds in Linn Dara have closed. I thank the association for informing me because it seems no effort was made by the Minister of State’s office to do so. When was she going to inform the public? Was she hoping that the closure of children’s mental health beds would simply go unnoticed? When did she find out there was a problem? What exactly has she done since finding out?

This is not the first time beds have been closed in Linn Dara. A similar incident happened in 2017. It seems the Government has learned nothing. Linn Dara inpatient units provide services for children and adolescents with severe or complex mental illnesses requiring a combination of intense interventions and supervision that cannot be provided by community and outpatient services. The closure of these beds will have a devastating impact on our community and on children. How will the Minister of State address the recruitment and the problem around retention of psychiatric nurses?

Deputy Bríd Smith

I heard the Minister of State speak about this in the media and earlier in the House. Frankly, she sounds more like an observer than somebody who has responsibility for it. We are facing a huge crisis in child and adolescent mental health. It is in the news every day. People are constantly ringing radio programmes, such as Joe Duffy's radio programme, about the crisis being faced.

Linn Dara serves people from outside the direct community. As has been said, this is like Groundhog Day. Exactly this time five years ago, there were exactly the same number of beds and exactly the same period of closure. It is not acceptable. It is as if the Government is shutting its eyes to the crisis we have generally in our health service but in particular in maintaining and retaining staff. We bleed staff but we ask ourselves why we bleed them. When is the Minister of State going to sit down with those at the coalface, the nurses themselves and their representatives in the Psychiatric Nurses Association, to get some resolutions to this issue?

Deputy Joan Collins

As the Minister of State is aware, I raised this question on Leaders' Questions this morning. I made the point that Linn Dara is a key facility for child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, nationally and for the greater Dublin area, Wicklow, Kildare and, in particular, Louth. The HSE stated that these bed closures, a reduction of 11 beds from 24 to 13, is a consequence of a shortage of qualified staff.

In acknowledging Sharing the Vision, the Minister of State said that she was hopeful that this implementation plan would advance improvement across CAMHS, mental health team governance, organisation and clinical oversight as well as ensure best practice and patient safety and that, in this context, it was critical that standardisation and consistency in mental health service delivery were achieved. Does she think she has met that?

Deputy Patrick Costello

It is important to remember that Linn Dara deals with the most distressed and the most complex cases of children and young people seeking help. The Deputies speaking tonight are from Dublin South-Central and Dublin South-West but the reality is that Linn Dara serves Kildare, Westmeath, Laois, Offaly, Longford and Louth. As Deputy Collins said, this is a national service and we should really have Deputies from each of those constituencies trying to raise this, although I am not sure how we would divide the four minutes.

The reality is that this essential service is closing to very little noise apart from what we are saying in here. That is disturbing because our mental health services are under great threat. Our CAMHS services are quite simply not up to scratch and are not fit for purpose.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Mary Butler)

I thank the four Deputies for raising this issue today. Deputy Collins raised it earlier as well. It was raised on Leaders' Questions because it is a very serious situation. I was informed on 11 May 2022 that due to recruitment challenges, the number of operational beds in the Linn Dara CAMHS unit was going to be reduced from 24 to 13 on a temporary basis. Deputy Costello is quite right that the most distressed cases are dealt with in Linn Dara. It is the most fantastic facility with a school attached to it with five teachers. It really is state-of-the-art. I cannot say why this happened five years ago as well but I can tell the Deputies what the situation is now.

No patient has been or will be discharged early from the unit. While the reduction in capacity will have an impact on waiting lists, the demand for inpatient beds in CAMHS units over the summer months is usually around half the normal level of capacity. I have the figures for the past four years and it runs at between 55% and 60% capacity but that still does not make it right. This regrettable situation has arisen because a number of nursing posts became vacant simultaneously at Linn Dara for various reasons. The situation is that there are 51 funded posts in Linn Dara and currently 24 of them are in place. To have a safe staffing perspective for those young people using the service, some of the beds had to be closed. As I said, it is not due to lack of financial resources but solely because the nursing complement available through the use of permanent and agency staff is no longer sufficient to continue to provide a full 24-bed inpatient service to a safe standard.

In reply to Deputy Ward's question, I have spoken to the HSE. I am not an observer. Far from it, I have never been an observer in this role.

I spoke to the HSE, the Department and the clinical consultant psychiatrist, the professor who runs the service. I spoke to him at length again yesterday. They have explored all possible options, which included redeploying staff from other CAMHS units or teams to Linn Dara, but if they are taken from the community, that impacts the community teams. They had agency staff in place and that worked for quite a time.

I asked the professor why he felt that they were finding it hard to retain staff, and not so much to recruit them, and there were several issues. The young people and children who are in this service are very complex cases and they need a lot of care. He said that many of the nurses who were working there were very young. Some of them have chosen to travel. Following Covid, the world has opened up again so that people can travel. Second, some of the nurses there had promotional opportunities within the HSE and they were promoted. Third, as the Deputies will be aware, it is quite difficult for people to find accommodation in Dublin. Those were some of the reasons cited by staff that they find it difficult.

At the same time, we must get over those issues. What I want to do is to make sure that this service is up and running fully as soon as possible. New staff will be recruited. A new group of graduate staff will be available in July and August. They will be recruited immediately. Hopefully, they will take up the posts. We are hopeful that we will have all the beds back open again at the start of September.

All four CAMHS units nationally, including Éist Linn in Cork, Merlin Park in Galway and St. Vincent's, also in Dublin, with ten beds operational at present, hold a team meeting every week and they look at the list. They look at the number of children who are triaged who are waiting and that already happened this week.

Deputy Mark Ward

I will give the Minister of State some figures. More than 8,000 children are waiting on appointments for primary care psychology, 3,000 of whom have been waiting for more than a year. More than 4,000 children are waiting for CAMHS appointments, of whom more than 400 have been waiting more than a year. If these children get the service they need at an early age, they are less likely to need the more acute services that are provided by such services as Linn Dara when they get older. Does the Minister of State agree that early intervention is key? How will the Government address these failings in the children's mental health service?

These are children; they are not statistics. Behind each one of these children, there are hopes, dreams and ambitions and they are being stalled at present.

Deputy Bríd Smith

The Minister of State says she was informed on 11 May that there was a problem with staffing. She was probably informed on 11 May but the Department and the HSE had known that there was a problem with staffing. As I said earlier, it is like Groundhog Day. We can go right back to 2017, to a replica with the same number of beds and the same period of time. The question is: what will the health services do to retain nurses? To get an answer to that, the Minister of State must sit down with the PNA and other nursing unions. She will not know how it is on the ground and the answers to this unless she talks to those at the coalface and I ask her to do that.

Deputy Joan Collins

The waiting list for CAMHS nationally was 3,500 in December of last year. We do not yet have the figures but it is likely up to about 4,000. Cutting these beds in Linn Dara must have an impact on children accessing those needs that they can access there. I am asking the Minister of State, as others have asked, to sit down and discuss recruitment and retention with the PNA. It has to be done.

Deputy Patrick Costello

On top of the waiting list figures that have been mentioned, a significant cohort of young people seek referral to CAMHS and, through inconsistent application of standing operating procedures, do not get their referral accepted. They are told that it is either only behavioural or only emotional and it is not appropriate. Behind these figures of waiting lists there is another significant cohort who are not even getting the help they need.

I am also concerned at throwing fresh graduates into a pressured complex environment, which seems to be a recipe for burnout and increasing the retention problem. I would like to know what is being done on that.

I echo the call of the other Deputies to meet with the PNA, particularly around that last issue.

Deputy Mary Butler

I do not disagree with anything the Deputies have said. Everybody has the best interests of every child who is on a waiting list and every child who needs to get into one of the approved centres at heart. Everybody feels the same. I am a mother and I feel the exact same. There is not a family in Ireland that, whether directly or indirectly, has not been affected by mental ill-health.

Regarding the figures, last year the referrals into CAMHS increased by 5,177 to 22,600, which was unprecedented. In the same period, the new referrals seen also increased by just under 2,000. On the waiting list for CAMHS, the figure up to March is 3,443. We managed to take 500 off the list from the previous month.

Regarding primary care psychology, Deputy Ward stood opposite me previously and quoted figures of 10,000. They are now down to 8,000. I was able to get 1,600 children off the list by a targeted approach before Christmas and I secured another €5.5 million this year to keep that going. I am meeting with the primary care psychology team next week to see where we are at. My focus is on those waiting more than 12 months because, as the Deputy rightly said, early intervention is key. Nobody can disagree with that.

Overall, 91% of children who present to CAMHS and who are complex and really in need of support - they may be suicidal, it may be self-harm or whatever - are seen within 48 hours but the problem we have is that there are long waiters who are pushed down the list. There is a targeted approach ongoing at present to reduce waiting lists for CAMHS and the target is focused specifically on those waiting more than 12 months. Currently, 9% of children are waiting longer than 12 months. I hope the next time I stand before the Deputies that figure will be much less than 9%. I will keep them informed. I will be working on this daily.

Deputy Bríd Smith stated that I said at the start I was informed on 11 May. I was made aware unofficially in the few weeks preceding that that there were challenges relating to staff.

Refugee Resettlement Programme

Deputy Chris Andrews

Built in 1893, the Royal City of Dublin Hospital on Upper Baggot Street, more commonly known as Baggot Street hospital, was a main centre of care for a large part of the south-inner city for almost 100 years before the acute services were transferred to St. James's Hospital in 1986.

Despite its current state of disrepair, this building stretching 5,600 sq. m is still stunning to look at. It is an excellent example of Victorian architecture in the city. Its striking red-brick facade and high spires make it the most striking landmark in that particular area. The architecture is Flemish, as is that of several of the surrounding buildings, and the old nurses' residence is now the Dylan Hotel around the corner on Eastmoreland Place.

For a time, a number of community services were operated out of the hospital, including a primary care team, a stroke team, addiction services and a gay men's health service, but this has all ceased and the building is now rapidly falling into dereliction in one of the most prime sites in Dublin's south-inner city. Incredibly, Baggot Street hospital has been allowed to remain idle for years and local businesses and residents are now calling for it to be used to house people fleeing the war in eastern Europe. This building could have been repurposed ten to 15 years ago to house Dublin's homeless and maybe that is something that will happen in the future.

A local developer has said that her building company is happy to provide the labour for this project free of charge. It is estimated to cost €1 million and the labour would be free. That would be a significant saving to the State. That would repair and make fit for purpose the building for Ukrainian refugees. It is estimated the building could comfortably house 200 beds. The developer believes the ground and first floors could be delivered within two months of each other with each subsequent floor taking a month after that to deliver. Works would be done under the supervision of a fire consultant.

In recent years, the HSE has indicated it plans to sell part of the hospital for it to be converted into offices, a hotel or apartments and use the funds for a new primary care centre but nothing has ever happened. Today, the building continues to become more and more derelict.

I understand the local community is fully behind the project to make it a refugee centre and is willing to do whatever it can to get the hospital ready to welcome Ukrainian refugees.

It is in the city centre, where there are many employment opportunities. It has schools and is a perfect location to house Ukrainian refugees.

I am asking the Minister of State to intervene as a matter of urgency and get the HSE to show some vision in getting this hospital back into operation as a centre for Ukrainian refugees. With a bit of goodwill on all sides and with the support of the local community, this could be done in a relatively short period. There is much local community support for this initiative and it is a shame that the HSE seems to be totally uninterested in furthering the project. To be brutally honest, the HSE is being negligent and must be reined in. The hospital must be taken from its dead man's grip.

Deputy Mary Butler

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. He is absolutely right that local communities have been to the fore over the past three months in responding to and welcoming our Ukrainian neighbours, who have had to flee their country. It is vital that Departments and public bodies work together to provide the best holistic response to ensure the safety of, and provide support to, people arriving in Ireland after fleeing conflict in Ukraine.

My Department and the HSE are working to ensure the provision of medical services to Ukrainian refugees, including the issuing of over 18,000 medical cards to date, co-ordinating disability service access and working closely with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth on the provision of a new national Ukraine arrivals accommodation transit and processing centre in Citywest. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is responsible for the provision of emergency refugee accommodation.

The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage is focusing on the medium- and long-term accommodation challenges and leading cross-Government efforts through a housing task force established by the Government for this purpose. This work involves considering a number of options, including refurbishment and reconfiguration of vacant public and privately owned buildings as multi-occupancy accommodation for Ukrainian refugees. As part of this work, my Department and the HSE have submitted a list of potentially suitable properties to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, with the aim that those that might be suitable for use as multi-occupancy accommodation can be brought into use for such purposes.

With specific regard to Baggot Street hospital, I can confirm that the building was identified by the HSE as a location with the potential to be used to provide accommodation for refugee housing. The Deputy is more familiar with the building than I am, and I have seen it only in passing the outside. It is a substantial building. The viability of the building for this purpose is contingent upon several factors, including the condition of the building and the nature of any required works. The timescale to complete any potential works is also a factor that must be addressed.

An initial feasibility report on Baggot Street hospital has been completed. The findings of the report are that the building, in its current state, is not habitable. The report also notes the added complexity of working with a protected structure because it is a listed building. The need for extensive works, particularly regarding necessary upgrades to electrical, plumbing and fire protection, are identified in the report. More in-depth surveys are required to scope what work would be required to bring the building up to even the most basic health and safety standards. Given the condition of the building, such surveys would be time-consuming.

The report indicates that it is not possible to establish scope or timeframes for necessary works until all surveys are completed and statutory approvals and planning permissions are received. Nevertheless, substantial work and time would be necessary to bring the building to a habitable condition. It is the goal of the Government to provide the best possible support to refugees fleeing the Ukraine conflict, including providing suitable emergency and medium- to long-term accommodation in the initiatives under way. Any decision in respect of the Baggot Street hospital building will be taken in that context.

Deputy Chris Andrews

The Government did not need a report to tell us the building is uninhabitable because a cursory look confirms it is not fit for anybody to live in. There is a development company that is willing to give labour for free and make it habitable. It wants to work with fire safety people to ensure it is habitable and safe. It could be used on an emergency basis and it is not a long-term solution for anybody for accommodation purposes. This is certainly an emergency and the Government must act accordingly.

I guessed that the Minister of State would say it is on the list. I also know the Government has no intention of taking on or fighting the HSE to get this from its grip. The gatekeepers in the HSE are determined to hold on to it. Baggot Street hospital is a monument to the failure of the Government's housing policy. It is a monument to the failure to address the homelessness crisis. It could have been opened ten or 15 years ago and housed Dublin's homeless population. Why did that not happen? The gatekeepers in the HSE and the Government were not willing to invest in it. As a result, it has been allowed to lie idle.

It could have been developed to benefit the local community but that has not happened. If it had been developed years ago, we would not be in this crisis. It is very hard to understand how a building of this magnitude has been allowed to lie idle and become derelict.

Deputy Mary Butler

I thank the Deputy for his comments. I do not think anybody ten or 15 years ago could have pre-empted that Mr. Putin would invade Ukraine and had the building ready as a result. I do not have the history of the Baggot Street hospital.

Deputy Chris Andrews

It could have been redeveloped for Dublin's homeless population.

Deputy Mary Butler

I know it is a substantial building. I should be clear and will put this on the record again. The Deputy mentioned that the HSE has its fingers in this, but the HSE submitted a list of potentially suitable properties to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage for use as multi-occupancy accommodation. Baggot Street hospital was included in that list. I am replying on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, and I take on board the Deputy's comments about a development company prepared to provide labour for free on this. Everybody is trying to work together to do the very best they can to ensure Ukrainian refugees can be housed in a good location and with the correct surroundings. I will certainly bring the suggestion to the Minister. It is a substantial offer from any developer in this day and age. I thank the Deputy for raising the matter tonight.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar athló ar 10.48 p.m. go dtí 9.12 a.m., Dé Céadaoin, an 25 Bealtaine 2022.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.48 p.m. until 9.12 a.m. on Wednesday, 25 May 2022.