Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2021: Motion

Minister of State at the Department of Justice (Deputy James Browne)

I move:

That Dáil Éireann resolves that the period of operation of sections I to 7 and 9 of the Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2021 (No. 14 of 2021) be extended for a period of 6 months, beginning on the 1st day of June 2022 and ending on the 30th day of November 2022.

I am here to introduce a resolution to extend the sunset clause in the Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2021. The extension of this Act will allow the hospitality sector to continue to provide for the sale or supply of intoxicating liquor in outdoor seating areas. Deputies will be aware the Act was introduced in July 2021. The provisions of the Act were in place until 30 November 2021 and were further extended in November 2021 until 31 May 2022, with the exception of section 8 which deals with the number of ordinary judges in the High Court.

Section 9(4) of the Act provides that the relevant provisions of the Act can be extended for up to six months at a time if a resolution approving its continuation has been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas. On 17 May 2022, the Government agreed the extension of the Act for a further six months. The Government took this decision as the circumstances leading to the enactment of this legislation have not changed. There is an ongoing demand for the provisions which allow businesses to provide, with clarity and certainty in relation to the law, outdoor dining services. Therefore, I am now bringing forward a proposal that the Act should continue in operation until 30 November 2022.

Ireland's pubs, restaurants and nightclubs have been heavily impacted by the Covid-19 related restrictions of the past two years. I acknowledge that the necessary public health restrictions which were required as a result of the Covid-19 pandemic affected this industry significantly. In line with the improved health situation, Covid-19 restrictions have now lifted and the industry is on its way to returning to full capacity.

I realise, however, that many of these business are still struggling and it is important we give them the assistance they need to thrive as the busy summer season approaches. It is hoped that the continued provision of outdoor dining opportunities to customers will be of great benefit to the industry. The extension of this Act would facilitate the continued operation of outdoor seating areas, many of which have been introduced during the past two years. It would provide clarity for the pubs, bars and clubs in a position to provide an outdoor seating area to customers and members.

The Covid-19 pandemic saw businesses adapt rapidly and effectively to public health guidance during an unprecedented time. I thank everyone working in the industry for their collective efforts. The introduction of the Act addressed an uncertainty in the law for licensed premises offering an outdoor seating area to their customers. Many licensed premises availed of these outdoor spaces. The use of these spaces gave people the opportunity to socialise safely while adhering to public health guidance.

Summer is now here and, if we are lucky, it is to be hoped it will bring sunshine and fair weather. We can all look forward to enjoying time with our friends and family this summer in a very different context from that which we have experienced in recent years. We want to preserve the use of outdoor spaces by our hospitality industry for the summer period ahead. These outdoor spaces have boosted the appeal and attractiveness of our cities and towns. They have often injected a new energy and dynamism to local areas. They are not only of benefit to locals but are also very attractive to domestic and overseas visitors. Now that the tourism sector is returning to strength, we hope to be in a position to share our lively bars and restaurants with many new and returning visitors to our country.

The Government is committed to the continued support of businesses and will do what is necessary to show this support as businesses return to normal following what has been an unprecedented period of change. The outdoor dining provisions form one element of that support. We have all seen how well these outdoor areas have operated in co-operation with local communities and how they have enriched the night-time culture. It is also important to note that outdoor socialising continues to provide increased protection against the transmission of Covid-19 and, as we all strive to keep ourselves and our families protected from Covid-19, the option to sit outside while enjoying a meal or a drink is very welcome. These measures will help hospitality to return to normality, will help towns and cities around Ireland to thrive again, and will get people mixing and socialising in life-enhancing ways.

The need for the Act became apparent last summer, in conjunction with the health measures in place at that time. While the existing licensing laws were well understood in the context of serving alcohol within a premises, there was a need for clarity in the serving of alcohol in areas outside a premises. The Act was an appropriate and welcome response to remove the ambiguity that arose in the application of licensing matters to outdoor seating areas. Providing ongoing clarity to licensed premises, An Garda Síochána and local authorities as regards the current legal situation remains of the utmost importance.

The enforcement powers An Garda Síochána has relating to outdoor dining remain the same. An Garda Síochána will retain its current general power of direction in respect of compliance with the licensing Acts. It is important to note that the overwhelming majority of licensees have complied with these provisions relating to outdoor seating areas. A longer term solution in the broader licensing context is under preparation by officials in the Department of Justice, and the extension of these provisions is appropriate while a permanent solution is being prepared. As Deputies are aware, the programme for Government, as well as the justice plan, include a commitment to modernising alcohol licensing. This is a major priority for the Minister, Deputy McEntee, and she is committed to delivering this piece of work.

I reassure Deputies that officials in the Department of Justice are making plans for the future by providing a licensing framework fit for the dynamic and diverse society and economy we have become. The Government gave its approval, on 15 September 2021, for the drafting of the general scheme of the sale of alcohol bill. I am happy to say that work on the consolidation and reform of the licensing laws and the drafting of the general scheme is advancing well.

Obviously, this is an area on which there are many views across society, and the legislation that will be brought forward needs to be informed by careful consideration of those views and perspectives. Last November, the Minister launched a wide-ranging consultation to seek the views of the public on the modernisation of Ireland's licensing laws. The consultation, which ran until 21 January 2022, looked at how best to update the existing laws governing the sale and regulation of alcohol in Ireland. I am pleased to say there was a very high level of public engagement, with more than 5,000 responses received, which speaks to the importance of this issue and the strong views held by many. Officials in the Department are reviewing these responses and taking account of this engagement in developing the legislation.

In addition, on 10 March, the Minister hosted a consultation webinar on the reform of the alcohol licensing laws. It was great to be able to bring together some of the key stakeholders in the industry and provide an opportunity for further discussion of the issues of concern. It was a lively and informative discussion, and the matters raised will be taken into consideration in developing the proposed legislation. Deputies who wish to view a recording of the webinar may do so on the Departments' social media channels.

The complexity of the law relating to licensing provides a real impetus for reform. The matters being addressed by the extension of the Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2021 will be included in that context as part of a permanent solution in a more coherent licensing system.

The matter before the House seeks to ensure the continued but time-limited application of legislation, which was scrutinised and passed by this House before the 2021 summer recess and extended in November 2021. The circumstances leading to the enactment of the legislation have not changed in that there is an ongoing need for legal clarity in relation to outdoor dining provisions while a longer term legislative solution is prepared. I commend the resolution to the House, I thank Deputies for their attention, and I look forward to hearing their observations on the matter.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

The motion before the House seeks to extend certain provisions of the Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2021, for an additional six months, to allow the sale and consumption of alcohol in relevant outdoor seating places. Members will recall the hiatus last year when there was total confusion about the legal situations, with local authorities wondering whether they were the licensing authority and with the Garda contacting the Minister directly enquiring as to what was happening. There was a particular difficulty in Galway about which, I have no doubt, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle was contacted directly.

We have clarified the law on the matter. I do not have a difficulty with, nor do I believe the House will have such difficulty, in endorsing a six-month extension of the provisions that worked admirably well last year. It is demonstrably a good idea. It is the norm in continental Europe. While we often talk about our weather in Ireland, I can assure Members it is no worse than the weather in Brussels. There is no reason it cannot work to great effect, thereby turning places like Galway city or Wexford into wonderful spaces for outdoor dining and for people to mingle. This will greatly enhance not only our tourist product but the look of our towns as well as rural areas.

Obviously, it must happen within proper controls, which are set out, and be licensed by the local authority. There is an onus on the publican to maintain good order. People cannot bring their own booze. It is not to be a gathering point for drinkers. The general powers available to An Garda Síochána to maintain public order, including hours of operation and so on, will apply to these outdoor spaces in the same fashion as they apply to indoor licensed premises, as the Minister of State reaffirmed. All of that is good and I support it.

I agree with the Minister of State about the impact of Covid on the licensed trade. It has been horrendous. Many licensed premises simply will not recover and will not open again. That has been compounded by the cost-of-living pressures on business. This is an issue to which the House will have to return.

I support what has been done, and my only question is to ask why a permanent solution to this is not provided now. The Minister of State alluded to that by saying there is ongoing major reform and consolidation of the licensing Acts. As he knows, I have been around a while.

That will not happen. It will not be enacted in the lifetime of this Dáil. There are 5,000 submissions. Few things are more contentious than the licensing laws. The Minister of State has now given leave to draft not even legislation but the heads of a Bill, which will then go for scrutiny and public hearings. There is no prospect in the short term of it being enacted. We will be back here in six months or earlier to extend this. We should do it. The Minister of State should have come in and done it today. It is logical the Government should have used the last 12 months to get particular things done. We can consolidate them all ultimately, but let us do what is right now.

There are other things we can do. One of the things that struck me during the pandemic was that older people were advised to go shopping early in the morning. They were being facilitated in the supermarkets to go shopping early in the morning, but they could not buy alcohol. It was like a debar in reverse. They were too old to be allowed to buy alcohol. There are ridiculous anomalies, including the notion that people going to a luncheon cannot buy alcohol before 12.30 p.m. on a Sunday. These are the issues that need to be addressed. If we are a long way away from sorting it out in a consolidated way, which I honestly believe we are, let us deal with as many of the most egregious aspects of the anomalies as we can as we move along. I would have hoped this particular provision would have been long term rather than for six months.

Deputy Martin Kenny

The issues around this all stem from Covid and the difficulties we had for the two years when the country was closed down. It was a terrible situation for the licensed trade, the tourism industry and people involved in businesses, particularly in our tourist areas, but also in towns and villages across the whole country. They found they had no way of making an income because of the restrictions that were put in place. We are here now to extend this particular arrangement that has been put in place. That is welcome and we certainly need to do it. However, I agree with Deputy Howlin that it is time we recognised that the arrangement has worked and that we need to put something permanent in place to ensure it can work into the future.

I have come across many people who have enjoyed the loveliest of sunny evenings sitting outside in towns and villages throughout the country, thinking they were in Spain or some Mediterranean area because they had an electric sun, as it were, over them keeping them warm. The reality is it has worked. It has been a revelation that it can work and can be put in place. However, there are issues and problems with it. In some cases, footpaths have been made narrower and people with disabilities have not been able to pass. There have been issues with parking in towns and many other things. They need to be worked out. All of these things need to be done in collaboration and co-operation with the local authorities, local businesses and local communities, who have often found there are problems.

There are issues around the licensing laws, trading hours, the consumption of alcohol in particular, and all that goes with it. The consumption of alcohol has a negative side to it that we too often see. Indeed, there is a video going around at the moment, recorded in Dublin Airport, that would certainly demonstrate that. It can have a very negative side. We are encouraging people to go back and live in the town centres and to use the space over shops as living accommodation. If that is the case, we must ensure town centres are not places where people are exposed to the worst elements of drunken behaviour that we often see in some of our towns, especially at the weekends. There are issues that need to be dealt with there.

As the tourism industry tries to rebuild and grow again, there is an issue I have come across in a number of areas. It is something on which the Government needs to reflect and think about how to resolve. Many of our hotel rooms have been taken up by people from Ukraine. That is welcome and needs to happen. The people need somewhere to go. However, in many towns that are depending on tourism over the summer, there is nowhere for tourists to stay or go. That is a problem that needs to be examined and for which a solution needs to be worked out. The Ukrainian crisis has thrown up many problems and we cannot ignore them. I think there is a tendency to solve the problem that is in front of us and to ignore the others because there is a feeling there is too much to do. There are knock-on effects to all of these things. Covid has had a huge knock-on effect on the entire tourism industry and on our entire community.

Covid has also changed our culture. More and more people are going to the off-licence now, bringing drink home with them and having a party in the house or the garden or whatever rather than actually going to the pub as they used to in the past. I think that change in culture and in how we do things will be with us for quite some time. The Irish pub is unique. I do not think I have been in any city or town around the world where there are pubs from different countries in the same way there are Irish pubs. If you are in any large town in Europe, there will be an Irish pub, or perhaps two, three or four of them. You will not find a Welsh pub, a Spanish pub or any other in such towns. There is a uniqueness about the culture of the Irish pub as being that intimate place that people go to to enjoy a drink, the chat, the music and the atmosphere that is created within the pub. If that is something that we can export, we need to get it right at home as well.

I have no problem supporting the extension of this provision. Indeed, I welcome it. We need to ensure we find a way of putting it in place on a long-term and more permanent basis. When we are doing that, we need to make sure we are doing it right. I take Deputy Howlin's point that we need to do it as soon as possible. However, I also think we should not rush it. We should do it right. We must ensure we do not do something we will regret and that will cause unforeseen consequences in the future. Having said that, now is the time for getting our heads together, to start putting the plans in place to do that and to make it happen as soon as possible.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We can recall why this arrangement was required. There was discussion about whether by-laws or primary legislation were needed. I think it was obvious to some of us that it was going to need primary legislation. I appreciate this is a stopgap measure. I agree it would be ideal if we had a more permanent solution.

Outdoor seating areas were a vital support to pubs and restaurants, and indeed to the public, during the pandemic. Such areas are a perfect example of one of the changes made during Covid that had a benefit for more than the time they were required. The past two years have helped us change our collective thinking about the use of public and outdoor spaces. Some of that is about activity in places other than pubs. We need to run with some of the changes. We need to continue to optimise our town and city centres for people rather than just cars. Innovative use has been made of public spaces over the past two years. Some - not all - of that usage should be made permanent. The pedestrianisation of Capel Street is a prime example of the innovative use of public spaces. It was a street that people were not particularly happy to walk up and down. The kind of passive security that comes with people being out is something we should not discount. It opens up streets that are not otherwise available to people because they do not feel safe on them. Very often, the streets that people feel less safe on are the quieter streets. Let us start thinking in a wider sense about the benefit of this arrangement. Obviously, it revives community spirit and things like that. It also has to be reconciled with the other demands on spaces. One of the important things is that it improves safety.

When considering outdoor areas on a permanent basis, it is also an opportunity to rethink long term. We have all been in places in different parts of the world where design is built into having an outdoor space. There are arched aspects to the front of buildings. This caters for the rain but also provides an outdoor space at the same time. We must learn from the pandemic. People actually like having the choice between outdoor and indoor spaces. There was a good reason it was required during the pandemic. If we are looking at street design, it is important to get local authorities to start looking at their development plans in relation to building design.

There has been a great deal of good work done in that area on streetscapes, shopfronts and things like that. The design of these outdoor spaces must match the objective of getting good visual street spaces, shopfronts and such things. Some of that will occur at local government level but we should be looking at where there is good design to ensure it is replicated rather than some of the things we have seen. There is a plethora of parasols with alcohol advertising, for example. Some of that is not that good visually. It was needed for a time but we should be looking at the best visual approach as well as the best way of using that space.

We all agree on the prominent alcohol branding issue. On the one hand, we are talking about not allowing alcohol advertising before the watershed and on the other hand, every public street has such big advertisements. We need to be thinking about things that are a little inconsistent. I understand that the Department is working on legislation around waiving council fees. One will have something of a conundrum when it comes to the issue of how one rates the space provided on a footpath, and whether the business is viable in terms of the additional cost. Some thinking needs to happen on this. It is essential that we do not impede people who have visual or physical movement difficulties. This has to be well thought out. It must be catered for and cannot be an impediment. There must be an inclusive space that people with disabilities, whatever they are, can equally enjoy. On occasions, it has been an impediment to actually get into the physical building rather than into the outside space.

The revaluations will be another issue. They could take a great deal of time if there is to be a change in rates. That will need to be very carefully considered. One could be waiving the fee on one side to allow this to happen and could be adding a commercial rate on the other side. We must allow some time for a recovery in that sector so that we can have those kinds of choices for people in their own localities and for people who are visiting the locality also. We have probably all become a little bit more introverted where we start losing that collective sense and it is important that we do not lose that. I would like to see this arrangement made on a more permanent basis.

Deputy Michael McNamara

I welcome this motion, which seeks to extend the remit of the 2021 Act to allow outdoor serving by pubs and restaurants for a further six months. Like previous speakers, I question why we are doing this just for six months. I take on board the Minister of State’s explanation that we are going to have a consolidation of the licensing laws. The obvious implication is that we are going to have this consolidation within six months. However, Deputy Howlin is not optimistic that we are going to have it at all during this Dáil term. Perhaps he is suggesting that this Dáil will only last for another six months; I am not sure. I believe it was the former - that we are not going to have it at all, even if the Dáil goes to 2025. If that is the case, why are we providing for a six-month period now?

I know we do not have much legislation to discuss in this term. I will cede the floor to any of the three Opposition justice spokespersons and to the Minister of State if they wish to contradict me on that point. We seem to be very light on legislation at the moment and very heavy on statements. I believed that this Parliament was about legislating. That makes me worry on two levels. First, I suspect that we are in for a late night, or rather a late morning, when we will be here until 6 o’clock some morning as the Minister of State rams legislation through the Dáil and everything will be guillotined. The President has previously pronounced on the concern that exists about the undemocratic nature of legislation being passed in a way that lacks analysis and the detailed discussion we are elected to do.

I have a second worry. We have discussed the licensing of outdoor bars and restaurants as a positive outcome of the pandemic and one of the positive changes in practice in Irish society. However, there has also been a negative outcome in respect of the work rate coming out of the public sector, which seems to me to have dropped significantly. This is something I am hearing from many constituents. This is not an attack on public service workers, or if it is, it is not an attack on low-level public service workers. If we are going to change work practices, and we have done so, and if we are going to change how people interact socially, how people die and how people drink, we are going to have to plan for it. That is what this Bill is about. If we are going to change how people work, with people working from home etc., we are equally going to have to change how this is managed and facilitated. It is the same workload. I agree with everybody who is saying they should be able to work from home. Nobody is saying that people should not have to work when they are at home. Nobody is suggesting that for a minute. My point is that people working from home require systems and management to be put in place and that is not happening. My personal experience is that it is very difficult to get through to Government Departments, to county councils and to facets of the public service. I am repeatedly hearing this complaint from my constituents. It is not the fault of public service workers and those who work in the councils, etc., but it seems that systems are not being put in place to facilitate and ensure the work gets done, albeit that people are not working from hubs. Perhaps it is about computer systems and telephone systems but it is fundamentally about management systems and managing this significant change. I accept that it has probably been one of the biggest changes in work practices for decades. It is a welcome change. It is one that needs to be managed, but it is not being managed. If the fault lies anywhere, it is at senior management levels in the public sector. Senior managers, like politicians, are paid enough to do a much better job in this regard. I do not wish this to be characterised as an attack on low-level, front-of-office, public-facing public servants because it is not. It is a criticism of a lack of systems to facilitate the work being done. It is apparent to me and to many of my constituents that it is not being done.

To recap, I welcome this legislation. It could and should have gone a great deal further. If it is going to be replaced by a consolidation of the licensing laws within six months, I am willing to eat my words within six months, but I rather doubt it.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice (Deputy James Browne)

I thank Deputies for their contributions. This legislation arose out of the uncertainty that existed at the time. Our licensing law is quite archaic and is made up of amendment upon amendment, in many cases. The uncertainty at the time gave rise, in particular, to concerns around insurance and who was going to be responsible if anything happened. Perhaps in the past we muddled along with the little bit of outdoor hospitality which had been happening. This legislation has been a great success culturally and the amendments to the legislation have been very successful. The Civil Service team who drafted it deserve great credit because it was done at very short notice but it brought a very effective long-term solution, albeit one that has to be renewed every six months.

The proposal is to bring forward a very significant piece of reform around licensing law and a scheme is being worked on to that end. That is challenging - there is no question of that. I completed about 50 licensing applications in my time when I practised. Licensing law is a funny area in that it takes a long time to get your head around it. As Larry Gogan might have said, once you know it, it is easy. It is complicated to get your head around it initially and there is certainly a lack of plain language in it. This will take a body of work and I do not know how long that will take.

It certainly is being actively worked on and driven forward.

I agree with the Deputies who raised the issues around footpaths. While the development of outdoor facilities is very positive, we need to ensure footpaths remain accessible to people who have mobility challenges, including those who use wheelchairs. This extends to outdoor spaces and streets. We must be conscious that wheelchair spaces have been, on occasion, used for outdoor dining. That should not happen or, at the very least, alternative spaces should be provided close by.

Deputy Howlin noted that the licensed trade sector is under huge pressure. Coming off the back of the pandemic, the rising cost of living is now having an impact. As we in Wexford know only too well, there is huge difficulty in getting staff to work in the hotel industry, despite its being a very well-run industry.

I agree with Deputy Catherine Murphy's point regarding the design of our streets. The whole question of the built environment and how it is designed is hugely important. It has an impact on our environment and culture and on people's mental health. We must ensure these spaces are warm and welcoming. It is possible to design outdoor spaces in such a way as to minimise antisocial behaviour. There used to be a unit in An Garda Síochána that helped with those types of designs. It is an interesting area.

I thank all the Deputies for their contributions. I hear what they are saying. The provision of outdoor spaces has worked and it is great, but we need to get to a point where they become a permanent fixture. I do not think this Government or any alternative Government will roll back on this particular development, but there are a number of issues that need to be considered. Whatever about a scheme being ready, I do not expect legislation to be passed within six months. I certainly hope I am still in my role then and we will see where we are at that point.

Question put and agreed to.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar fionraí ar 6.12 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 6.34 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 6.12 p.m. and resumed at 6.34 p.m.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 25 May 2022