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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 May 2022

Vol. 1022 No. 6

Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2022: Report and Final Stages

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 9, to delete lines 29 to 35, and in page 10, to delete lines 1 to 10 and substitute the following:

“(2)(a)The Minister shall prescribe in respect of a loan (other than a running account) under a high cost credit agreement—

(i) the maximum rate of simple interest chargeable per week (being a rate less than or equal to 0.75 per cent), and

(ii) the maximum rate of simple interest chargeable per year (being a rate less than or equal to 36 per cent).

(b) A maximum rate of interest prescribed under this subsection shall apply to a high cost credit agreement entered into after the date on which the regulations, by which the rate is prescribed, come into operation and for a period of no longer than three years.

(3)(a) The Minister shall prescribe in respect of a loan (other than a running account) under a high cost credit agreement—

(i) the maximum rate of simple interest chargeable per week (being a rate less than or equal to 0.35 per cent), and

(ii) the maximum rate of simple interest chargeable per year (being a rate less than or equal to 18 per cent).

(b) A maximum rate of interest prescribed under this subsection shall apply to a high cost credit agreement entered into no longer than three years after the date on which regulations, by which the rate is prescribed, come into operation.

(4)(a) The Minister shall prescribe in respect of a running account under a high cost credit agreement, the maximum rate of nominal monthly interest chargeable on an outstanding balance (being a rate less than or equal to 1.92 per cent).

(b) A maximum rate of interest prescribed under this section shall apply to a high cost credit agreement entered into after the date on which the regulations, by which the rate is prescribed, come into operation.”.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this amendment that concerns an issue that has been of great interest to me for some time. I introduced legislation back in 2018 to cap the levels of interest that moneylenders can charge and have been campaigning for changes to the law for several years. The permitting of ultra-high high interest rates charged by moneylenders is immoral and unethical. Had moneylenders never existed, no one would or could justify any lender charging the level of interest they do. That is precisely what the law does. It permits moneylenders to charge rates of interest that trap vulnerable borrowers into vicious cycles of debt. At present under law, under this and previous Governments, moneylenders licensed by the Central Bank have been permitted to charge annual percentage rates, APRs, of up to 187% on loans. This increases to 288% once collection charges are included. When compared with more affordable sources of credit such as credit unions with APRs of no more than 12.67%, there are no grounds on which high rates could ever have been justified.

Imposing a cap on the cost of credit that moneylenders can charge is fundamentally a moral issue. For several years, the Minister and the Department of Finance have resisted any calls to restrict the cost of credit moneylenders can charge, often on dubious grounds. European countries already have interest rate restrictions in place: in Spain on the grounds that ultra-high interest rates are excessive, in Finland on the grounds that they are unconscionable, and in Germany because they lack moral legitimacy. All of these assessments are correct. In 2018, the landmark report published by University College Cork and authored by Dr. Mary Faherty, Dr. Olive McCarthy and Dr. Noreen Byrne brought focus to this issue and found that 21 out of 28 European Union member states had an interest rate restriction in place. They also called for a cap on interest rates here.

In March, my legislation to put a cap on the interest moneylenders could charge was rejected by the Government. The argument deployed most often was that the cap on interest rates would lead to moneylenders leaving the market with borrowers being forced into the arms of illegal moneylenders. Despite their concerns, when the biggest moneylender in the State, Provident, left the market last year, the Department did not even issue a press release to advise borrowers of what to do.

My amendment would put in place a cap that this Dáil can morally stand over, one that could reduce the cost of credit moneylenders can charge, protecting consumers who are vulnerable to vicious cycles of debt, and reducing the interest they are charged. It proposes an initial cap of 0.75% in simple interest per week up to a maximum of 36% per annum on a cash loan. This would then reduce to 0.35% in simple interest per week up to a maximum of 18% per annum. This provides a more ambitious restriction than the one put forward by the Government in this legislation. The Government's proposal currently before the House would allow a moneylender to charge €480 on a €1,000 cash loan over a 12-month term, when a credit union would charge €60 for the equivalent loan. The Government's proposal would allow a moneylender to charge 129% APR. I do not believe this proposal should be supported in the Dáil. It is not one the Dáil can morally stand over. We in Sinn Féin cannot stand over it. That is why we have proposed this amendment.

The interest rate restriction we have proposed in our amendment is one the moneylending sector can bear as it moves towards a more professional and digitalised mode of business in which labour costs are substantially reduced. Crucially, it is one the Dáil can ethically tolerate, ensuring as it does that the total cost of credit a moneylender could charge would reduce from six to three times the average cost of credit of an equivalent loan from a credit union. I hope the Dáil will do the right thing and support this amendment.

I thank Deputy Doherty for his proposed amendment, which we discussed on Committee Stage. Deputy Doherty and I agree on many elements of this Bill, including the need for a statutory interest rate cap. We are at odds here on the precise rate of that cap. Deputy Doherty's amendment would reduce the caps in the Bill and cut the caps in three years' time to rates that would compare with mainstream lending rates. Lower interest rates are better for consumers; I am aware of that. The purpose of this legislation is to reduce interest rates and the Government remains open to cutting the interest rate again in the future based on evidence we will ask the Central Bank to collect.

I want to explain how we arrived at the figures I am proposing in the Bill. In 2019, the Department of Finance held a public consultation on the introduction of a statutory interest rate. Fourteen submissions were received in favour of a cap with six against. There was no consensus as to what the cap should look like or on the level at which it should be set. Following the public consultation, the Department carried out further research, which was published last July and is available on the Department's website. It showed there was an appetite for a statutory cap, that such a cap should be on a simple interest basis for cash loans, that the rate should be adjustable over time, and that care should be taken to mitigate the potential impact on supply arising from the introduction of such a cap.

The research showed there is currently a concentration of loan offerings between 1% and 1.2% simple interest rate per week in the market. An initial interest rate cap of 1% will make these loans cheaper. It will take the most expensive products off the market and will require the bulk of products to be revised downwards. It is also accompanied by a ban on home collection charges, which currently apply in many situations. At the same time, the initial rates will allow moneylenders to revise their business model and reduce their margin to enable them to operate within the legislative cap.

It is not every day we bring forward legislation to cut revenue of an industry. I do not have any sympathy for the industry, but if interest rates for moneylenders are reduced too much and too quickly, some moneylenders may cease operating and the availability of much-needed credit for many people could be reduced. The biggest market player has already left, as the Deputy has mentioned. The moneylenders that remain would be likely to reduce their credit risk appetite and would leave a portion of their existing customers with even more limited access to regulated credit. If borrowers' access to regulated credit is reduced, a number of things can happen. Some will go to other regulated lenders such as credit unions. Some will go to family and friends and some will go without. Some will, however, end up as victims of illegal moneylenders and that is what we must avoid. There is very little information available about the potential migration of customers from moneylenders to unlicensed moneylenders. This makes it difficult to assess the likelihood of consumers migrating to unlicensed moneylenders if a cap is introduced that reduces or removes the supply of credit from licensed moneylenders. Even if it is a small percentage of people who do this, that will be a very big deal for those individuals and vulnerable families especially. It is easy to say the rates are too high, but if people are availing of them, we cannot cut these borrowers off either. It is not an exact science nor is it the ultimate destination. It is an appropriate place to start.

Therefore, we are starting with the 1%, which can be reduced over time.

The legislation sets out the principles and policies that guide the Minister when making regulations to set the specific caps, and these include in particular the financial inclusion issues to ensure people have access to loans when they need them and that there is credit available in the market. This provides flexibility to amend the caps downwards while ensuring there is always an upper limit in the primary legislation. The figure set in the legislation, 1%, can be reduced over time but we are starting at this point.

The legislation also provides two separate caps: a weekly one of 1% and an annual one of 48%. These can be adjusted either separately or together, depending on the information in the market. This is a better approach than setting particular limits, which businesses may fail to adjust, ultimately reducing the availability of credit for many borrowers. As already mentioned, the largest player has withdrawn from the Irish and UK markets. We must ensure there continue to be people who can lend to those who actually need a loan.

Including in the primary legislation a maximum rate to apply in three years presupposes without any analysis a level of reduction the market will be able to take. The Deputy’s amendment prescribes the rate we should have in three years. I want to see lower rates as much as Deputy Doherty, but we have to take care not to reduce the supply when introducing the caps. With regard to setting the rate for three years’ time at this point without any evidence as to how the market will be, the availability and the social inclusion issues that need to apply, it is appropriate to make the decisions closer to the time. This legislation provides for that, and it can be done based on the evidence we will collect or that the Central Bank will collect on our behalf in the intervening three years rather than guessing what we will need in three years. Therefore, it is important we start at this point with the view to being in a position to make a change as time goes on.

This legislation also deals with what we call running accounts, which some of the catalogue operators have. Many will be familiar with these. They feature all year round. Sometimes there are Christmas catalogues. We want to ensure people have funds available without having to seek recourse to illegal moneylenders. That is what we want to ensure here.

I accept and have put it on the public record that Deputy Doherty has done tremendous work in this area over recent years. He has produced information and legislation on the matter. We agree on practically everything, including the principles of the Bill, the running accounts, the need for a cap, the need for a review and the need to set the maximum cap, but the point of difference is the particular interest rate. We want to introduce one we are satisfied will look after vulnerable people who need access to cash. We can review it as time goes along.

The Minister of State is right in that there is much we agree on and I have been working on this for quite a number of years. He said he would like to see interest rates reduce as much as I would. I do not believe that is the case because, if it were, he would not be proposing an APR of 129%. However, I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt. He can vote for my amendment, which would reduce the interest rate.

Amendment put:
The Dáil divided: Tá, 58; Níl, 70; Staon, 0.

  • Andrews, Chris.
  • Barry, Mick.
  • Boyd Barrett, Richard.
  • Brady, John.
  • Browne, Martin.
  • Buckley, Pat.
  • Carthy, Matt.
  • Clarke, Sorca.
  • Collins, Joan.
  • Collins, Michael.
  • Conway-Walsh, Rose.
  • Cronin, Réada.
  • Cullinane, David.
  • Doherty, Pearse.
  • Ellis, Dessie.
  • Farrell, Mairéad.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Funchion, Kathleen.
  • Gannon, Gary.
  • Gould, Thomas.
  • Guirke, Johnny.
  • Healy-Rae, Danny.
  • Healy-Rae, Michael.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kelly, Alan.
  • Kenny, Gino.
  • Kenny, Martin.
  • Kerrane, Claire.
  • Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
  • McGrath, Mattie.
  • Mitchell, Denise.
  • Munster, Imelda.
  • Murphy, Catherine.
  • Murphy, Paul.
  • Murphy, Verona.
  • Mythen, Johnny.
  • Nash, Ged.
  • Nolan, Carol.
  • O'Callaghan, Cian.
  • O'Donoghue, Richard.
  • O'Reilly, Louise.
  • O'Rourke, Darren.
  • Ó Broin, Eoin.
  • Ó Laoghaire, Donnchadh.
  • Ó Murchú, Ruairí.
  • Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
  • Pringle, Thomas.
  • Quinlivan, Maurice.
  • Ryan, Patricia.
  • Shanahan, Matt.
  • Sherlock, Sean.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Smith, Duncan.
  • Stanley, Brian.
  • Tóibín, Peadar.
  • Tully, Pauline.
  • Ward, Mark.
  • Whitmore, Jennifer.

Níl

  • Browne, James.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Butler, Mary.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Cahill, Jackie.
  • Calleary, Dara.
  • Cannon, Ciarán.
  • Carey, Joe.
  • Carroll MacNeill, Jennifer.
  • Chambers, Jack.
  • Collins, Niall.
  • Costello, Patrick.
  • Cowen, Barry.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Crowe, Cathal.
  • Devlin, Cormac.
  • Dillon, Alan.
  • Donnelly, Stephen.
  • Donohoe, Paschal.
  • Duffy, Francis Noel.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Farrell, Alan.
  • Feighan, Frankie.
  • Flaherty, Joe.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Fleming, Sean.
  • Foley, Norma.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harris, Simon.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Heydon, Martin.
  • Higgins, Emer.
  • Kehoe, Paul.
  • Lahart, John.
  • Lawless, James.
  • Leddin, Brian.
  • Madigan, Josepha.
  • Martin, Catherine.
  • Matthews, Steven.
  • McAuliffe, Paul.
  • McEntee, Helen.
  • McHugh, Joe.
  • Moynihan, Aindrias.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Murnane O'Connor, Jennifer.
  • Naughton, Hildegarde.
  • Noonan, Malcolm.
  • O'Brien, Darragh.
  • O'Brien, Joe.
  • O'Callaghan, Jim.
  • O'Connor, James.
  • O'Donnell, Kieran.
  • O'Donovan, Patrick.
  • O'Dowd, Fergus.
  • O'Gorman, Roderic.
  • O'Sullivan, Christopher.
  • O'Sullivan, Pádraig.
  • Ó Cathasaigh, Marc.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • Rabbitte, Anne.
  • Richmond, Neale.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Ryan, Eamon.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Smyth, Niamh.
  • Smyth, Ossian.
  • Stanton, David.
  • Troy, Robert.
  • Varadkar, Leo.

Staon

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Pádraig Mac Lochlainn and Denise Mitchell; Níl, Deputies Jack Chambers and Brendan Griffin.
Amendment declared lost.

The time permitted for the debate having expired, I am required to put the following question in accordance with an Order of the Dáil of 24 May: "That Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed."

Question put and agreed to.
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