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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 5 Jul 2022

Vol. 1024 No. 7

Ceisteanna ar Sonraíodh Uain Dóibh - Priority Questions

An Garda Síochána

Pa Daly

Question:

1. Deputy Pa Daly asked the Minister for Justice her views on the planned reforms to GSOC, including whether she envisages an increase in funding for any new body to replace it; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [35896/22]

I ask for the Minister's views on the planned reforms to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC. She will have seen the 2021 report it released, which mentions the sustained increase in caseload and its preparations for the expanded mandate. Does she envisage any increase in funding for any new body to replace GSOC? Will she make a statement on the matter?

I thank the Deputy for raising this question. As he will be aware, the policing, security and community safety Bill, which has completed its pre-legislative scrutiny, will provide for a reformed and strengthened Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission in line with the recommendations of the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland, which is obviously a significant body of work conducted over the past number of years.

The proposals in the Bill are comprehensive.

They address the structures, independence, remit, and processes and procedures of GSOC.

The body will have greater financial independence through its own Vote for the first time. It will have a new CEO, who will assume the responsibility of the Accounting Officer and allow the ombudsman and deputy ombudsman to focus on directing investigations and oversight work. Its remit will also be expanded to include allegations that come to light other than by way of a complaint from a member of the public. It will, for the first time, be responsible for the investigation of all complaints, other than minor service level complaints, which will be referred to An Garda Síochána for resolution. Members of An Garda Síochána will no longer investigate complaints on behalf of the new body.

The processes and procedures, described by the commission itself as cumbersome and inefficient, will be streamlined to support the timely, transparent and effective resolution of complaints and investigations. The rights of members of An Garda Síochána personnel to fair procedure and natural justice will be fully respected within the new procedures. The oversight and accountability of the body will also be strengthened in a number of ways. For example, complainants will have a right to seek a review of certain decisions. The scope of the judicial inquiry that may be undertaken into the conduct of a designated officer at present will be extended to include all officers of the ombudsman, the ombudsman and deputy ombudsman, and the policies and procedures of the office. Many of these reforms have been sought by GSOC itself and have been the subject of extensive consultation with GSOC and the Garda Commissioner. As the Deputy will be aware, they have also been the subject of detailed consideration by the Joint Committee on Justice during the pre-legislative scrutiny process. I received the committee’s report recently. We are going through that in great detail and my officials are examining its recommendations to identify what further refinements might be required to the Bill in the course of drafting to ensure this major overhaul of policing delivers a system that enhances transparency and efficiency and, above all, has the confidence of complainants, An Garda Síochána and the wider public.

I thank the Minister for her response. The reforms to GSOC contained in the policing, security and community safety Bill were dealt with extensively during pre-legislative scrutiny. The proposed reforms were criticised by many stakeholders in the committee. Some criticised the reforms for giving GSOC too many powers, and others criticised them for not giving it enough powers. I ask the Minister for her initial thoughts on the proposed reforms. The sustained increase in the caseload has also been highlighted as an issue. We in Sinn Féin believe it is important to get police accountability right. I think we can all accept the Six Counties jurisdiction has a lot to teach us on the matter.

The powers of the ombudsman in the Bill do not exceed those necessary to conduct effective investigations of the police. I welcome what the Minister has said about members of An Garda Síochána no longer investigating other members of the organisation. It is a basic principle that members of the police service should not be investigating themselves. I note the work the Garda Commissioner has done with the anti-corruption unit. At the same time, there is a resourcing issue. That has been commented on by people within GSOC. I hope that will be dealt with by Government. There is also an ongoing lack of co-operation or collaboration on the part of middle management of An Garda Síochána. Does the Minister accept the principle of independent investigation is important? Will she ensure the resources will be put in place to deal with that?

The issue of resources is a major factor. It was explored in the pre-legislative scrutiny and was highlighted in the wider report of the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland. I am pleased to say GSOC has had unprecedented levels of resources in recent years, with a total allocation of €13.4 million for 2022, marking an increase of more than €2 million in comparison with 2021. At the end of June 2022, there were 149 staff assigned to GSOC, including three commissioners. That represents a very significant increase of over 21%, with 123 staff in 2021. Having met with staff and the new chairperson of GSOC recently, I know that, like other organisations, one of the biggest challenges GSOC faces is the recruitment of staff. Specialist members of staff are required for the posts. It is not just about the recruitment of staff. It is about holding on to them. That is an issue that has been raised. We have committed to providing GSOC with every resource possible to ensure it can hire the staff required. If the overall plan and the implementation of the policing, security and community safety Bill is going to work, we must ensure GSOC has the resources it needs. That includes the staff and the financing that are required. One of the biggest issues that was raised, not just by the committee but by many others who engage with GSOC, was how the reforms will speed up the complaints process. I will speak to that in my next response.

We can see the importance of dealing with workforce planning in other Departments, such as the Department of Health. The Minister has hit the nail on the head in the question of where GSOC is going to find all the investigators it needs. Are plans in place to source them from other Commonwealth countries around the world that have similar investigative procedures? We do not want to go back to the stage where there are units within An Garda Síochána doing investigations. We do not want to go back to the practices of the past, such as those used in the Sallins mail train robbery investigations, where the individuals involved were questioned and tortured. They have now launched a petition to the UN to investigate the State's role in the process. We must challenge ourselves to ensure such incidents never again occur. There must be external scrutiny and accountability. The heads of the Garda Síochána (powers) Bill have some worrying aspects to them, including the powers to exclude lawyers. What plans are being put in place to ensure the necessary investigative staff will be recruited?

On the issue of staffing, like any other organisation, GSOC is planning ahead and identifying the type of staff it needs. It will have to go through the same official process and channels as any other organisation to appoint members. One of the Deputy's first questions concerned the overall improvements to GSOC.

One of the issues that has been raised repeatedly is the timeliness of processes. Currently, there is a twin-track process in place. First, it has to be decided whether the investigation will be civil or criminal. A complainant has to go through an entire process. At the end of it, if it is neither one nor the other, they must go back to the beginning and start again. A new mechanism will be put in place to identify, at the outset, whether it is a potential criminal or civil investigation, thereby reducing the length of the process and the impact it can have on the person who has made the complaint or the individual against whom the complaint has been made to enable them to move on or to continue in their work.

One of the biggest issues that has been raised is the time it is taking for the complaints process to conclude. The new mechanism, along with the provision of additional staff and resources, will help with that. It will ensure the process is improved overall. We all agree there needs to be a level of oversight of An Garda Síochána. What we are doing with this legislation and through these proposed reforms is to ensure a structure is in place that is transparent and sets out the procedures and process for everyone involved.

Will the Minister provide me with a date on which members of An Garda Síochána will no longer be investigating other members of the organisation?

We have to introduce the legislation first. I hope to bring forward the general scheme after the summer recess.

Legal Aid

Pa Daly

Question:

2. Deputy Pa Daly asked the Minister for Justice if she will detail the supports her Department gives to Free Legal Advice Centres; if her Department has received its 2021 annual report; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [35898/22]

Will the Minister detail the supports her Department gives to Free Legal Advice Centres? Will she confirm if her Department has received the 2021 annual report, and will she make a statement on the matter?

I fully support the work of Free Legal Advice Centres, FLAC, and have met with members of the team. I compliment them on the work they do and, in particular, on the work they continued to do through the Covid-19 pandemic. It has been a difficult period for a number of organisations, particularly those that deal with the public. FLAC plays a key role in the provision of legal information, advice and advocacy work through its telephone information referral line, for which my Department has provided grant funding over a number of years.

The Department has received FLAC's annual report. I highlight that, according to the report, last year, the highest number of calls were made to the referral line since 2015, with more than 13,000 calls being made. Obviously, that may have been as a result of the Covid pandemic, as people were not meeting face-to-face and were communicating more online and over the phone. Nevertheless, there was quite a significant increase in the number of calls made to the referral line. We must respond to that.

More generally, given the increase in calls in recent years and in response to representations directly from FLAC to my Department that the cost of providing this service has increased, in budget 2021 I trebled the funding allocated to FLAC from €98,000 to €294,000. That enabled us to support the invaluable work it does and the services it provides to the most vulnerable by strengthening its telephone information and referral line and increasing the numbers of legal advice clinics it provides throughout the country. In budget 2022, I maintained the increased funding allocation to FLAC. We will be responding to and engaging with the organisation and other stakeholders to look at what is possible for this year for the next budget in September. More broadly, FLAC regularly engages with my Department on access to justice matters. In its recent annual report, FLAC called for and welcomed the review of the civil legal aid scheme that I announced and is under way.

This is the first time in its more than 40-year history that we have had a review of this kind. I am pleased to say that the work of the group has commenced. It is being chaired by the retired Chief Justice, Frank Clarke, with membership drawn from across different sectors. We are trying to make sure that we do not just have legal expertise but that we also have representatives from the various different organisations and representative community groups, including marginalised groups; legal practitioners; academics; Department officials; and representatives from the Legal Aid Board, which administers the current scheme. FLAC is an important member of the review group. Insights from working to promote equal access to justice for all will be invaluable to the group as its work progresses.

The review will allow for an assessment of how well access to justice is facilitated by our civil legal aid scheme, particularly for those on low incomes. The review group will make recommendations for its future, including in relation to eligibility. As part of the review process, I intend that there will be significant consultation to ensure that the insights of a range of stakeholders regarding the operation of the scheme - and how best to support those of limited means with legal needs – will inform the work of the review group.

As I noted, the review group has commenced its work, which is expected to take a period of 12 months. It will report to me periodically on progress, before submitting its final report to me once its work is completed. FLAC’s annual report highlighted that in 2021 almost a third of all queries to its telephone information and referral line related to family law matters. I am determined to overhaul the operation of the family justice system to ensure we have a more efficient and user-friendly family court system that puts the family at the centre of its work. Work on drafting the family court Bill is progressing with a view to publishing the Bill as soon as possible in 2022.

I am sure the Minister is aware that an awful lot of the FLAC centres around the country have more or less exclusively been dealing with family law cases. I note the figure of 13,000 calls that the Minister mentioned, which is a small but significant increase. I do not know whether the Minister noticed the following matter but I certainly did and I am sure the Acting Chairman did. There has been a massive increase in the number of people seeking advice since the ban on evictions ended. There have been many notices to quit, which involve landlord and tenant law and employment law. There are much fewer people, percentage wise, who are in trade unions. They are not getting any representation, a lot of them cannot afford the services of a specialised lawyer and they are coming to our offices. Does the Minister have any plans to resource FLAC so it can move into advocacy on behalf of workers and tenants who are receiving notices to quit? Most people know that most of those notices to quit are not genuine when they detail that properties are being sold or are for family members and so on. There needs to be a way that can be challenged by tenants and they are not able to do so.

The overall increase from 98,000 to 294,000 was to support the huge amount of work it already does. There are 30 full-time law centres, part-time centres, four specialist legal offices and 20 family mediation centres. Of the law centres, eight of these with a family mediation office are co-located. It is not just the online services but a huge amount is happening in-person on the ground. The Deputy referenced family law and about 30% of the calls related to same. To break it down further, of that 30% some 44% related to divorce, a number that has unfortunately increased in the previous year. Some 29% of the calls were concerning custody, access and guardianship, which again represents a rise of almost 18%. Some 17% of the calls related to maintenance, which is a rise of just under 10%. Finally, 12% of the calls were domestic violence queries so this is connected with the work we are doing in the development of the family law court, the family hubs and the family justice oversight group, acknowledging that this is an area we need to specialise more in. We need to create specialised judges and have separate channels for families to go to in the courts. We have such a significant increase in cases presenting before the courts so we must ensure we can respond to them as well as continuing to provide support for FLAC, which provides that initial support for many families.

On the point of expanding the services, does the Minister have a specified plan for separate family law courtrooms and courts around the country in the larger towns? If so, which towns is she talking about? I know that FLAC and the other organisations wrote to the Minister in July of last year about its demand for its services and the massive legal demand that is out there. The fact that the review is taking place is welcome and I commend the Minister on doing that but when will the report be completed? Does the Minister accept, given that the demand was made of her this time last year, that it is unacceptable for the review to possibly go into 2023?

What I always try to do and what any Department will try to do is respond to the asks, wishes and needs of the organisation it supports. The Department of Justice has tried, in many different ways, including financially, to support the expansion of FLAC. Any request coming into the budgetary process this year will be examined and hopefully responded to in a positive way. On the family courts, we are talking about hubs, which are structures within the current court structures. No final decision has been made on exactly where they would be but the most important thing is that there would be similar access, irrespective of where you are in the country, to those family courts. We must acknowledge that we might not be able to have one in every county but we want to make sure people have access to them in a quick and timely manner. Given what happened throughout the Covid-19 pandemic we have tried to prioritise family law and domestic violence cases, even where the courts were closed or minimally open. Even in doing that, the number of cases that are still to be seen and the work that is required means there is an urgency in this and I am treating this in the way it should be treated.

Will additional courtrooms be built around the country?

We have to look at where we are identifying locations and need and we can respond once we have that done.

Public Private Partnerships

Pa Daly

Question:

3. Deputy Pa Daly asked the Minister for Justice the projects that will benefit from funding allotted under the public private partnership line item in her Department’s planned capital expenditure for 2022. [36290/22]

I want to ask the Minister which projects will benefit from the funding allotted under the public private partnership, PPP, line item in the Department's planned capital expenditure for 2022.

Under the national development plan, the Government will invest over €282 million in capital projects in 2022, including provision for PPP funding. The Government has prioritised a package of funding which will facilitate sustained investment to support an efficient and effective justice system providing important Government services and activities across the sector, including in forensic science, policing, prisons and the courts. As the Deputy may be aware, the capital allocation for the justice Vote group encompasses An Garda Síochána, the Courts Service, prisons and the justice Votes.

The funding allocated under a PPP line item in 2022 relates specifically to the courts Vote. I am informed that the allocation of €38.74 million relates to the annual repayments for the courts building projects delivered under the public private partnership mechanism, encompassing the criminal courts complex in Parkgate Street, Dublin 8 and seven regional courthouse developments completed in 2017 and 2018. The regional courthouses are located in Wexford, Mullingar, Waterford, Limerick, Cork, Letterkenny and Drogheda. As the Deputy may wish to note, three large infrastructural projects are due for completion this year: a new laboratory for Forensic Science Ireland at Backweston, County Kildare; the redevelopment of Limerick Prison; and a large capital development for An Garda Síochána at Military Road, Dublin 8, to replace the Harcourt Square facilities.

Separately, the Department is progressing a further justice PPP project to provide a new family law court in Hammond Lane, Dublin 7, and two new Garda stations in Clonmel, County Tipperary and Macroom, County Cork. I am pleased that my Department, as the approving authority, has recently been in a position to provide approval in principle to the Courts Service and An Garda Síochána to proceed with these projects under the PPP mechanism. This is based on comprehensive business cases being submitted. This work is being advanced in conjunction with the National Development Finance Agency and will be completed in as timely a manner as possible.

It is interesting that the Minister mentioned the Criminal Courts of Justice because the repayments on that have probably been going on for 15 years and it will cost the State a sum of over €600 million for a piece of ground it already owned. There was only one real winner in that, namely the original funder, Babcock & Brown, which has received huge amounts of money from it. It is interesting that the largest capital commitments are towards PPPs and that is a pity given the lessons that are not being learned from the Criminal Courts of Justice. The State is locked into long-term commitments which ensure a lot of private profit.

We are waiting for an update on the courthouse in Tralee. Does the Minister have an update on any decision on that project? Has the Courts Service made any decision on whether it will proceed with the Island of Geese site?

The process with Hammond Lane has also been going on for years and years. There is a lot of frustration among family lawyers that there does not seem to be any date. Is there a date when the Minister expects that will be completed?

People might ask why we took this approach with the PPPs, which the Deputy has referred to. When the three elements of the PPP are combined they are more likely to be of a scale sufficient to attract the private sector parties and competition, where such interests and competition might not be generated if projects are progressed individually. The specific projects are often capable of being specified clearly within a PPP procurement process and contractual arrangement. There is an annual repayment cost over a period of 25 years, as opposed to the upfront capital cost, which makes it more affordable within the future funding allocations of the Courts Service and An Garda Síochána.

It is about making sure it can be delivered on time as well. Examples of facilities delivered and managed under PPP arrangements successfully elsewhere have come in on time and on budget. I will come back in on the query on Tralee court sites.

Has there been engagement with the Department of heritage in relation to these new projects? As the Minister is probably aware, officials from that Department spoke to the justice committee some time ago in relation to courthouses. The strong recommendation of one of the architects was that a grade 2 or 3 architectural review should take place before services are withdrawn from any court building. That should be done, in our view, in relation to Tralee courthouse. This might be a time, given what is or is not being considered by the Courts Service in relation to the Denny site, for the Minister to use her influence, take another look at the courthouse in Tralee to ascertain whether it can be refurbished and get the report from a heritage grade architect which is mandated by the Department of heritage. It also would be in line with the town centre first policy in the programme for Government. It would be better from an emissions perspective if we did not have to construct a new building, but could refurbish the current one.

It is because of the architect's report we received through the OPW from the Courts Service, which clearly says the building is not sufficient to deliver the required services which we want in Tralee and the surrounding areas, that another site has been identified. That is the Island of Geese site. There is no moving away from that decision. That decision has been taken by the Courts Service. This must be agreed by the local authority. The likelihood is that there should be agreement from the council. My understanding is that the Courts Service, the OPW and the local authority are meeting again this month, if not in the next two weeks, to discuss and progress this further. It is important that we progress the project and a decision is finally taken. The Courts Service decision was taken on the basis that this is the best way to expand and deliver on the services currently there in a way that is fit and proper for the environment people now need to work in.

Will the Minister ask that the heritage report be given before that meeting takes place so it can be properly considered?

I will come back to the Deputy on that.

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