Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 27 Sep 2022

Vol. 1026 No. 6

Financial Resolution No. 4: Special Exemption Orders

Minister for Health (Deputy Stephen Donnelly)

I move:

(1) THAT for the purposes of the tax charged by virtue of subsection (4) of section 78 of the Finance Act 1980 (No. 14 of 1980)(as amended by section 240 and Part 3 of Schedule 5 to the Finance Act 2001 (No. 7 of 2001)), that subsection be amended, with effect as on and from 28 September 2022, by the substitution of “€55” for “€110”.

(2) IT is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

This resolution provides for a 50% reduction in the excise fees of €110 for application for a special exemption order. This would come into effect from 28 September 2022. It means that the new excise rate per application would be €55. Based on the 2019 figures for licence applications, it is estimated that the measure will result in a cost to the Exchequer of €475,000 this year and €1.9 million in a full year. The excise fee reduction is being implemented alongside a reduction of 50% of the court fees relevant to the application for a special exemption order, which is being provided by my colleague, the Minister, Deputy McEntee. These measures will significantly ease the burden facing licensed premises and represent a more proportionate long-term course of action than continuing the waiver put in place during the Covid-19 restrictions. While work on wider reform of alcohol licensing is ongoing, this measure will provide some immediate relief for businesses pending the results of this longer-term reform work.

For these reasons, I move this resolution to support the ongoing well-being of the night-time economy.

Deputy David Cullinane

I would not call it immediate relief. It is a very marginal measure being taken by the Government. As the Minister said, the fee for the licence is €110. Halving it is an insult to a sector that was severely impacted by Covid. It was one of the worst affected sectors, possibly the worst affected, of any business sector during Covid. We are all aware of the range of issues that affect the night-time entertainment sector. The cost of insurance is probably one of the biggest issues and affects all businesses. It is one of the areas where we need to get more serious. The Government should have waived the fee. That is what we called for. To take a half measure that will have a very marginal impact on the overall cost of the business in this sector is insufficient and mean-spirited.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

This measure is kind of laughable. I cannot see how a €50 reduction in a €110 fee is going to make any difference to anybody. We will support any bit of relief but this seems laughable, which is probably the best word to describe it. What is less than funny, however, is that the Government has totally ignored the requests made by the music and entertainment industry, in particular the performers and artists in music and entertainment, to the Government for some actual, serious support. Appeals were made by the Music and Entertainment Association of Ireland, which is supported by a cross-party group of Deputies, including Deputies from Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. I find it remarkable that the Government has totally ignored those appeals in the budget.

Given that it is budget day, while there has been great fanfare about increased expenditure, which we debated earlier, the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media has seen an 8% cut in expenditure. As an aside, it is interesting that the Green Party seems to have been completely shafted in the budget. The Departments held by its Ministers, Deputies Eamon Ryan and Catherine Martin, got cuts of 17% and 8%, respectively.

While there has been increased expenditure in some programme lines in the Estimates book, the music and entertainment industry, whose representatives gave a presentation to the joint committee a week ago detailing the sector's asks in its pre-budget submission, was totally ignored. The organisers of the all-party committee, including other Deputies, texted me today to say how gutted and disappointed they were. That is a pretty poor show.

If we did not know it beforehand, during Covid we learned just how much we missed the musicians, performers and entertainers who work in bars and ordinary jobbing musicians. When we did not have all of those events to go to, there was a lot of talk about finally recognising these people and how important they are to society because most of them are on very low and precarious incomes. We were going to learn the lessons of the pandemic, realise how valuable they are and give them additional support but we have not done that in the budget. In fact, the Department that would be responsible for doing so has seen an 8% cut. That is a pretty poor show. Against that background, this measure is a bit laughable. What difference will €475,000 or €50 a pop make to anyone?

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I am glad to speak on behalf of many business owners in Kerry who have been in contact with me about this issue. They are finding it difficult to run their businesses at night. They were thinking about stopping the night-time entertainment they were putting on because when they added up all of the costs it was just not profitable to be at that business late at night.

I can see this from all sides because all my clinics are held in smaller public house venues. You do not want to be upsetting one by supporting another. There is a place for nightclubs and event venues and young people want to frequent them. The business people who open these venues give a lot of employment, whether it is the staff who work in them at night, the people who maintain them or the bouncers on the doors. It is a big industry. In County Kerry we are fortunate to have many people involved in this business. They have lobbied me greatly. Before the budget, I tabled parliamentary questions on negating the charge to zero. I welcome any reduction.

Some of the people who pay for these licences do so a good number of times in a week. If one adds that together, it does come to money. I would have liked the Government to go further in the budget but at least it is a step in the right direction. That is an acknowledgement that it is not all sunshine for these business people. Between repayments on loans, staff costs, energy costs and all of the other different costs involved in putting on late-night entertainment, there is an awful lot of expense involved. Since the pandemic, things have not got back to where they were. I say this on behalf of every business involved in entertainment. There seems to be a slowness in people getting back into what I would call full swing or what we had before Covid. I support all of the other measures taken today that will in any way help business. At the same time, I believe the Government did not go nearly far enough in supporting businesses.

I have been getting a lot of calls since the budget was announced. People are saying it simply will not be enough to help them to keep the doors open. I am very fearful that in County Kerry, for example, many of the small businesses have been struggling since the pandemic but they got over it. I always readily acknowledge that the Government supports were very important during Covid, but what is happening now is affecting businesses worse than Covid. They are finding it unbearable at the moment, with the costs that have ramped up against them. They are finding it very difficult. Any money that was in the bank is gone and they are watching how they go from week to week. That is a very big worry for people. There are some who may not have worried in the past about finances but now they do. I welcome this measure as a step in the right direction.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I, too, welcome the late-night exemptions. Many of these businesses have been struggling since the pandemic. It is clear that many places have not come back to the levels of patronage they had. I count this measure as only a small gesture. Much more is needed to help the night-time industry to prosper.

Many of my clinics are held in public houses and I appreciate those people affording me a place to meet people. It is more than 20 years since I became a county councillor and started doing clinics.

When I go around to the different parishes, it is sad to see that so many pubs have closed. And we wonder why. I often see more people outside a bottle bank now. If you wanted to find a crowd before it would be at the creamery or the post office, but now you would have more of a crowd at a bottle bank at certain times than you would have inside a public house. It is clear to me that people are now more likely to drink in an unregulated manner at home than in regulated conditions where the measure was regulated and the time at which you drink was regulated. It was a much safer environment. It was more regulated than it is now, even after all the talk and ballyhoo. That is where we have finished up with. We will see more closures. It is a sad loss because when the local pub closes, you are also doing away with the culture of our people. It was a great attraction in rural villages and towns. It was where people met people. They had conversations, yarns, story-telling, songs and a bit of music. It attracted a certain type of clientele from other countries and other parts of our own country. It is sad to see the decline of that because I think Ireland will be at a loss. We really should appreciate our own culture because I believe we are different from and better than other peoples in other countries. I have no doubt about it. It is sad to see that a lot of that tradition has been lost and more of it will be lost as pubs close. There are some villages now without any pub where there had been three or four pubs. I will not name any village but there is one in particular that had over 30 pubs and there is no pub open there by day now. I believe many governments have succeeded in closing many of them in many rural places. I think it is a sad reflection on government when that is the truth of what has happened.

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I will be looking for a cigarette if I keep hearing the phone, notwithstanding the damage that cigarettes cause. Maybe we could put the phones on silent. I am not looking at anyone in particular.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

A cigarette break might be desired by many after listening to some of the debate.

Any reduction in fees of this sort is welcome but it is clearly just a tokenistic measure. Anyone working in the night-time economy who is looking to develop arts and cultural spaces, creativity and trying to ensure a really vibrant future for live entertainment for music and nightlife will see this as far too little and will be aware that we need to do a great deal more to support our arts and cultural communities. The Labour Party's budget noted that the promised reform of licensing laws has to be accompanied by investment in arts and cultural spaces across cities and towns. It is the chronic shortage of such space, and not the relatively small fee for getting special exemption licences, that is really holding back the development of the nightlife industry. I think the Minister said it will be accompanied by a reduction in court fees as well. Clearly that is welcome, but it is investment in the sector that is so essential.

I speak as a representative of Dublin Bay South. The south inner city and the entire city centre is a vibrant area in which we are seeing the closure of creative spaces, the pricing out of smaller providers including dynamic young nightclub owners and live music operators, and the domination by a small number of big providers. That is really unfortunate. The real concern is younger people feeling priced out of the city centre with rising rents pricing them out of living there and rising rents for businesses pricing them out of having the sort of creative nightlife we all would like to foster in the city centre. On Culture Night, just last week, we saw a brilliant outpouring of the arts and creative sectors here in Dublin. More could be done than this token gesture of halving the fee. Why was this fee not simply waived altogether? Why are we not seeing the sort of investment in creative sectors that we have called for, including extended opening hours for national cultural institutions and serious increases in funding to help local authorities and others to fund purchases and to support artists and creatives in developing a vibrant nightlife?

Deputy Michael Collins

To be honest, it is crazy to be debating this proposal. We are talking about 50 quid. I hope we are not going to annoy Deputy Bacik any more because she said that some of the debate is stressing her out.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

Oh, I am not stressed.

Deputy Michael Collins

She comes from the party that did away with the death grant. We know what they did to women in this country with their pensions. Some people had to listen to their debates when their time came.

Unfortunately, the question of nightclubs does not affect my constituency in west Cork. One time when I was going out it was full of nightclubs. There was Gatsby's in Dunmanway, Amadeus and the Westlodge in Bantry, O'Donovan's in Clonakilty, the Beacon Park in Baltimore and Cleo's in Bandon. They were there but they have closed, one after the other, and sadly there is no nightclub now. The young people have the pub if they want to go out for a bit of socialising and to hear a bit of music. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is a sad situation that nightclubs have been left to completely die out. As many and all as there was, we used go to Kenmare to the nightclub there.

Deputy Michael Creed

Riversdale.

Deputy Michael Collins

It was a great place. In fairness, 50% is fine but you have to look at nightclubs in a bigger way. Given that the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media has had her budget cut here today, it does not look like there will be much out there. The musicians are struggling at this time too. People were playing in pubs and so on and it is no longer viable for the publican to hire the musician. That is what is happening in the constituency I represent. People would be delighted to hear me raising this issue and we would not be boring any other people who are inside here in the Dáil. I would say that 50% is fine but it is only 50 quid. You need to look at this further and consider better support packages for people who have nightclubs but also for publicans who are struggling at this time as many are. They create a huge amount of employment. Many publicans could be employing anything up to five or ten people part time or full time. That is incredible employment in a rural town or village. They need the supports. They have not recovered since Covid to be quite honest. That is what the rural publicans tell me. Like other Deputies, I have used their premises and am pleased to do so. I thank so many of them. I could use 15 of their premises during weekends, anywhere from Castletownbere to Kinsale, for clinics. I am happy to do so and people are delighted to have the opportunity to meet me in those pubs. We need further supports so that they can go forward.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

As the time allowed for debate has expired, I must now put the following question in accordance with the order of the Dáil of this day: "That Financial Resolution No. 4 is hereby agreed to."

Question put and declared carried.