Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 11 Oct 2022

Vol. 1027 No. 4

An tOrd Gnó - Order of Business

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Jack Chambers)

I move:

Tuesday's business shall be:

- Motion re Seventeenth Report of the Committee of Selection (without debate)

- Motion re Financial Resolution for Tailte Éireann Bill 2022 (without debate)

- Electricity Costs (Domestic Electricity Accounts) Emergency Measures and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2022 (Second Stage) (to conclude within three hours and 40 minutes)

- Employment Permits Bill 2022 (Second Stage) (will only be taken if Second Stage of the Electricity Costs Bill concludes before 8 p.m.; if reached, will be adjourned at 8 p.m.)

Private Members' Business shall be the Motion re Disability Services, selected by Sinn Féin.

Wednesday’s business shall be:

- Motion re Leave to Introduce Supplementary Estimates [Votes 29 and 40] (without debate)

- Employment Permits Bill 2022 (Second Stage)*

- Work Life Balance and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2022 (Second Stage)*

- Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2022 (Second Stage)*

- Electricity Costs (Domestic Electricity Accounts) Emergency Measures and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2022 (Committee and remaining Stages) (to be taken no earlier than 7 p.m. and to conclude within 90 mins)

Private Members' Business shall be the Motion re Pay Rises for Community and Voluntary Sector Workers, selected by the Labour Party.

*If not previously concluded, debate shall be interrupted on any of these three Bills at Second Stage either four hours and 55 minutes after the conclusion of the SOS or at 7 p.m., whichever is the later.

Thursday’s business shall be:

- Work Life Balance and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2022 (Second Stage)

- Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2022 (Second Stage)

Thursday evening business shall be Second Stage of the Údarás na Gaeltachta (Amendment) Bill 2018.

In relation to Tuesday’s business, it is proposed that:

1. the ordinary routine of business as contained in Schedule 3 to Standing Orders shall be modified to the following extent:

(i) the Dáil shall sit later than 10.30 p.m.; and

(ii) if not previously concluded, Government business shall only be interrupted to take private members’ business on the conclusion of Second Stage of the Electricity Costs (Domestic Electricity Accounts) Emergency Measures and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2022, or at 8 p.m., whichever is the later, with consequential effect on the commencement time of Parliamentary Questions to the Minister for Education and topical issues;

2. the Motion re Seventeenth Report of the Committee of Selection shall be taken without debate;

3. the Motion re Financial Resolution for Tailte Éireann Bill 2022 shall be taken without debate; and

4. on the conclusion of the first speaking round on Second Stage of the Electricity Costs (Domestic Electricity Accounts) Emergency Measures and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2022, a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply, which shall not exceed ten minutes, whereupon proceedings shall be brought to a conclusion: Provided that any division claimed on the Second Stage proceedings shall be taken on Wednesday either at 7 p.m. or four hours and 55 minutes after the conclusion of the SOS, whichever is the later.

In relation to Wednesday’s business, it is proposed that:

1. the ordinary routine of business as contained in Schedule 3 to Standing Orders shall be modified to the following extent:

(i) Parliamentary Questions to the Taoiseach pursuant to Standing Order 46(1) shall not be taken;

(ii) the sitting shall be suspended pursuant to Standing Orders 25(1) at the time when Parliamentary Questions to the Taoiseach would normally be taken; and

(iii) the weekly division time shall be taken on the conclusion of proceedings on Committee and remaining Stages of the Electricity Costs (Domestic Electricity Accounts) Emergency Measures and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2022, with consequential effect on the time for the adjournment of the Dáil;

2. the Motion re Leave to Introduce Supplementary Estimates [Votes 29 and 40] shall be taken without debate;

3. the proceedings on any second reading motion of a Government Bill shall, if not previously concluded, be interrupted either at 7 p.m. or four hours and 55 minutes after the conclusion of the SOS, whichever is the later; and

4. in relation to the Electricity Costs (Domestic Electricity Accounts) Emergency Measures and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2022, the following arrangements shall apply:

(i) Committee and remaining Stages shall take place either at 7 p.m., or four hours and 55 minutes after the conclusion of the SOS, whichever is the later, or where a division has been claimed on the proceedings on Second Stage of the Bill, on the conclusion of any such division; and

(ii) the proceedings on Committee and remaining Stages shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 90 minutes by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Environment, Climate and Communications.

In relation to Thursday's business, and in relation to the referral to Committee of the Personal Injuries Resolution Board Bill, it is proposed that:

1. the ordinary routine of business as contained in Schedule 3 to Standing Orders shall be modified to the extent that topical issues shall be taken either at 7 p.m., or on the conclusion of Government business, whichever is the earlier, with consequential effect on the commencement time for Second Stage of the Údarás na Gaeltachta (Amendment) Bill 2018 and on the time for the adjournment of the Dáil; and

2. the Personal Injuries Resolution Board Bill 2022 be referred to the Select Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment pursuant to Standing Order 95 and 181.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is the Order of Business agreed? Agreed. I call Deputy Cullinane.

Deputy David Cullinane

Today will see the publication of the HSE's winter plan.

I must put it to the Taoiseach that the time to provide for the winter plan for this year was last year's budget and the time to plan for next winter is this year's budget. It takes time to open beds, which is why 177 beds that are funded are still not open. Seventy two beds announced as part of last year's winter and national service plans are still not open. It takes time to hire staff and increase diagnostic and surgical theatre capacity. Is the Taoiseach confident that the winter plan will be enough for the sheer volume of patients we will see in our emergency departments this year.

The Taoiseach

It will be a very challenging winter. Experience across the world is showing that with a combination of influenza and Covid-19, or new waves and potential variants of Covid-19, it could be a very difficult winter. Covid numbers are increasing, which places real strains on our hospitals and nursing homes, results in delayed discharges from hospitals increasing, affects flows through hospitals, gives rise to things backing up and places people in emergency departments under real pressure. We started preparing for the winter in 2020 when we put €600 million into the winter initiative. This was to give full-time posts throughout 2021 and 2022. A further €160-odd million is going into this winter initiative to increase beds and get community and primary care services in place.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

I am concerned that many vulnerable renters may be excluded from the renter's tax credit announced by the Government in budget 2023. I have been approached by constituents who rent their homes by way of licence agreements rather than as tenants under leaseholds. We sought clarity from the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, who has appeared to dispel concerns by stating licensees would be entitled to claim a tax credit but who only referenced only those in the rent-a-room scheme or in student accommodation. Will the credit apply to people in standard licence agreements? We have been critical of the credit because it is simply not enough to protect people and keep them in their homes without the introduction of a temporary eviction ban this winter. We believe that the latter should and could be introduced. As long as the renter's credit is in place, every renter should be entitled to it. Could the Taoiseach clarify if those renting under licence agreements- licensees rather than tenants under leaseholds - will all be entitled to the credit?

The Taoiseach

My understanding is that those availing of the rent-a-room scheme will be entitled to the renter's credit. In terms of wider standard licensing, if the Deputy could give me instances of or context relating to those, I will take them to the Ministers for Finance and Housing, Local Government and Heritage.

Deputy Gary Gannon

On three occasions today, the last of which was at 1.41 p.m., I was contacted by people, one of whom asked "Can you help me? I'm in desperate need of help." Does anyone around this Chamber have any doubt about the content of that message? It was the third person today telling me they were about to be made homeless. The children of each of the three families by which I was contacted will join the 3,220 children in this country who are experiencing homelessness.

I listened to the Taoiseach's earlier exchange on Leaders' Questions. I have no confidence that any of the Government's plans are working. That is fine; I am in opposition and he is in government. All the while, children are being made homeless. We need an emergency response. I implore the Government to bring in an eviction ban for at least the winter, although I would argue that it should be beyond that, because we cannot contend with the rising levels of homelessness. Children's lives are being devastated. I had no response for the three families that contacted me earlier. I will be on Parkgate Street with one of them on Friday. We need a ban on evictions. All the waffle in the world will not keep those people in their homes.

The Taoiseach

I would appreciate it if the Deputy could, in confidence, forward details of those three cases to me because I am interested in the context and background as to why he received those calls today. There are protections in place such that it would take a number of months before anybody could be evicted. People cannot be evicted today, tomorrow or overnight.

Deputy Gary Gannon

Their notices are up.

The Taoiseach

I would like to get the background.

Deputy Gary Gannon

Let us have an eviction ban.

The Taoiseach

That is a separate issue.

Deputy Gary Gannon

That is the issue I am raising.

The Taoiseach

I have given the answer regarding evictions.

Deputy Gary Gannon

What is the point in asking questions if-----

The Taoiseach

I gave it earlier.

Deputy Gary Gannon

Does the Taoiseach agree with a ban on evictions?

The Taoiseach

I dealt with it earlier on Leaders' Questions.

Deputy Gino Kenny

I again raise the issue of the Covid-19 pandemic recognition payment. There was much fanfare about this payment and we all supported it but many workers have not received it.

They include many care assistants who work in the private sector. They were outside the Department of Health today and issued 1,700 individual letters to that Department on the non-payment of this. It is shambolic. Deputies get €1,000 because of the budget and front-line workers who were protecting our mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters still have not received that payment. It is an absolute embarrassment. Will the Taoiseach intervene personally to say these workers will get the payment as soon as possible?

The Taoiseach

Which workers?

Deputy Gino Kenny

Care assistants, front-line workers. Everybody was clapping them six months or a year ago and now they get nothing.

The Taoiseach

About 123,750 staff in the HSE have received the recognition payment. I am disappointed that many of those entitled to the payment have still not received it. We have discussed this at Government level, particularly in terms of private nursing homes, hospices and section 39 organisations. We want to work out a much faster methodology. The HSE has been dealing with this and is anxious from an accountability point of view that anything done is above scrutiny and can be accounted for. That said, in respect of a number of sectors approved for this payment, in the Government's view there is disappointment that it has not happened and there is an urgency to get it done.

Deputy Bríd Smith

Imagine how they feel. The Taoiseach is disappointed. They are waiting for the €1,000.

Deputy Gino Kenny

It is shambolic.

Deputy Bríd Smith

They put their lives on the line for us.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

In the Government's Budget Statement, a lot of promises were made on tackling the electricity crisis. In it the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Michael McGrath, stated that every household will be provided with electricity credit. I acknowledge this measure is a huge help for most households but I have a constituent who raised the issue of one electricity meter covering two dwellings: one home and one independent granny flat where the inhabitant is in receipt of palliative care which requires significant electricity use. Having one electricity meter covering two dwellings impacts both houses' entitlement to the electricity credit. It costs approximately €4,000 to install an additional meter, which is not feasible in the midst of a cost-of-living crisis. These dwellings are inhabited and maintained independently, the only combined aspect being the single meter.

Will the Government bring in the necessary legislation to grant eligibility for electricity credits to independent dwellings or granny flats which currently share one meter? Parents are letting siblings and family move into their homes rather than go homeless and siblings are letting parents who have medical needs move into their home rather than into nursing homes.

The Taoiseach

Is the Deputy talking about where there are multiple flats?

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

Granny flats and the situation where there is one meter for two dwellings. Families are building granny flats to let their parents come in or vice versa and are only entitled to one grant. Is there a possibility this can be sorted out?

The Taoiseach

It is not that simple to get a totally universal system for the energy credit. That is why we have brought in other measures, in addition to that credit, to provide supports to others. There is, for example, the extension of the free fuel eligibility threshold which helps many people over 70 who would not have heretofore been entitled to it. We will talk to the Ministers concerned to see if we can do something. Anomalies like this are arising and we have dealt with some in different sectors. We have come up with a system to deal with those but we have to do it in a way that does not allow for obvious exploitation.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

There is huge angst over the LEADER programme going forward. Notwithstanding the increase in Exchequer funding for the overall CAP 2023-27, there is a significant cut in LEADER funding for rural areas, with the proposed allocation for the programme falling from €425 million for the 2007-13 programme to just €180 million for this programme. This is astonishing.

The co-funding element of 56.72% falls well short of the 80% permissible under the EU regulation. This reduction in funding will have a huge impact on rural projects, tourism projects and commercial projects across my county of Tipperary and every other county. LEADER has been bottoms-up one of the best programmes ever introduced. I think the then Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, introduced it. Many great projects have been supported, many volunteers have been on the boards and many volunteers in the community have got it going. Now they have been shot in the face like this. It is disastrous.

The Taoiseach

LEADER is a great scheme-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It was.

The Taoiseach

-----and the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, was successful in getting additional funding for it this year.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is down by more than half.

The Taoiseach

It is not. I will ask the Minister to engage with the Deputy on the additional funding under this CAP strategic framework which he achieved for LEADER, as compared to the previous CAP. There is increased funding for it-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Not for here.

The Taoiseach

----and for investment in rural Ireland more generally. This budget has an allocation of €376 million.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

We are talking about LEADER.

The Taoiseach

That is an increase of €35 million on the Department of Rural and Community Development 2021 budget.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I asked about LEADER.

The Taoiseach

I know, but it is doing an awful lot of work for the rural towns the Deputy spoke about.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The idea is to close them down, is it?

The Taoiseach

I will let the Minister talk to the Deputy.

Deputy Michael McNamara

The Taoiseach has always maintained that the causes of the energy crisis are international and, therefore, the solutions will have to be international or at least pan-national. In that context, I was very surprised to read that Ireland was one of only two countries that did not apply for funding under the REPowerEU scheme. That scheme was particularly heralded by the biomethane sector in Ireland, which has the potential to have further benefits across the agricultural sector. I presume the Taoiseach has questioned why Ireland did not apply. Will he share with the Dáil the reply he received from the Department as to why the scheme was not applied for?

The Taoiseach

I understand it is not as simple as Ireland not applying. Some of that funding was already under the recovery and resilience plans that each member state submitted. In our recovery and resilience plan we made submissions in respect of energy, particularly in terms of public buildings. We had specific projects under the recovery and resilience plan that we submitted and that we will be refunding, in terms of a 100% energy building of the future in the public service. Measures had been applied for in that respect but I will get the full details for the Deputy from the Minister, Deputy Ryan.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

The Taoiseach will be aware that, during the Covid-19 period, certain businesses were allowed to defer payment of certain tax liabilities for a certain period, which has now expired. The period was set before the Ukrainian war, which could not have been anticipated but which has caused a raft of difficulties for those businesses. Will the Government revisit the question of warehousing tax for those businesses? The Government has been forced to step in to assist them again in the budget and it seems contradictory to assist them on one hand, while on the other letting the Revenue Commissioners put them out of business.

The Taoiseach

The debt warehousing scheme was very effective during Covid-19. About €2.9 billion of debt was warehoused during that period, as of the end of April 2022. Over 90,000 businesses availed of debt warehousing. However, it has not been considered yet in the context of the current energy crisis. There is a State aid temporary crisis framework put forward by the European Union that we have to be in line with. That is under review within Europe and we are also keeping our business reports under review, including on the issue of tax warehousing, but we have not made a decision on it. We are endeavouring to assess what the impact of measures will be on the viability of businesses. We want to protect jobs. That is the bottom line.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Last night, the Mayor of Killarney, Councillor Niall Kelleher, and I met with a number of Ukrainian refugees and stakeholders from the community in Killarney on the outrageous proposal to relocate 135 Ukrainian refugees, mainly women and children, from Killarney to Westport, County Mayo, with 48 hours' notice. These people have been living in Killarney for the past seven months and have put down roots. The children have started school, while the women are working in local businesses and have been set up with their local GPs. Now, with 48 hours' notice, they are being uprooted and sent to Mayo. It is completely unacceptable.

I call on the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, to make the proper decision. This is not humane. If we are treating this emergency with a humanitarian response, there has to be humanity at the centre of it.

Humanity has to be at the centre of this. I ask the Minister to look at the alternative accommodation that is available in Killarney, if these people must be moved, and to avoid the appalling situation that is facing them.

Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Deputy Roderic O'Gorman)

I recognise that moving these 112 Ukrainians will have an impact on families and individuals. The reason for the move is the pressure on the State's measures to meet the accommodation needs of Ukrainian displaced persons and international protection applicants. The number of Ukrainians arriving in the country has doubled in the past month as a consequence of renewed attacks on civilian targets. International protection applicant numbers remain high. We continue to have a real difficulty in sourcing accommodation for international protection applicants. Already, that lack of accommodation led to a situation where we had to turn international protection applicants away for a number of days. It is to try and avoid situations like that recurring that we have to take up all available accommodation for international protection where we can locate it. That is the case in Killarney. Asking people to move will have an impact on them, I absolutely accept that, but, fundamentally, my Department has to be in the position to provide accommodation and meals for all applicants, Ukrainians and international protection applicants alike. That is what we are seeking to do.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

The Minister can reverse this. It is in his hands to reverse it.

Deputy Pauline Tully

A nine-year-old autistic boy called Harry who attended an autism class in his local primary school is now facing expulsion. An incident occurred last Thursday week which caused him to have a meltdown. He and his mother were waved off from school afterwards by the principal and his class teacher who said "We will see you tomorrow", only for his family to receive an email that night stating he was suspended pending a board of management meeting to consider expulsion. Harry had been progressing well in school. He is now crying several times a day because he wants to go to school and does not understand why he cannot do so. I ask the Taoiseach to address this issue with the Minister for Education and the Minister of State with responsibility for special education. Children with additional needs, in particular those attending special educational settings, should not be expelled. They have a right to an education in their local schools with their siblings. Principals can apply to the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, to provide additional resources where required. This is happening too often and it has to stop.

The Taoiseach

I am always reluctant to deal with an individual case because I do not know the background to it and so forth, but no child with special needs should be expelled from school. Obviously, there could be circumstances that I am not aware of. However, what should happen immediately is that the various support services and special education needs organisers should be consulted first and measures taken to facilitate the child's placement in the school. The Department of Education will provide the resources for every situation. No child, particularly one with special needs, should be treated in that manner or identified in that way either. Again, I do not want to pass judgment without knowing the full details to be fair to all concerned. Ideally, this should be resolved on the ground, with the involvement of the family, the school community and the NCSE.

Deputy Patrick Costello

Commitments have been made to examining defects in housing. This is a major issue in my constituency, especially for people living in apartment complexes. Residents in Park West are facing bills of in the region of €30,000 per apartment for problems and defects that are not of their own making. A remedial scheme should have been provided in budget 2023 but was not. The Minister has a copy of the report of the working group. Will the Government announce details of and a timeline for a remedial scheme to support residents in order to give property owners clarity in respect of this matter? It is imperative that the owners have a clear timeline.

The Taoiseach

The Minister is examining this matter. He has the report, which outlines the scale of the issues. Approximately 100,000 apartments are impacted. The Minister, in consultation with colleagues, will develop options with a view to providing support to homeowners who find themselves in difficulty or in a difficult financial situation through no fault of their own before the end of this year. Hopefully, we will have proposals before in respect of that.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

As part of budget 2023, the temporary business energy support scheme was announced. I am sure the Taoiseach read the media coverage late last week like the rest of us. The scheme is limited to businesses that have profit from trade but excludes those that have profit from professions. There is already a shortage of dentists in my constituency. That will worsen if dentists are forced to close their doors permanently of to reduce their hours because of the rising cost of energy. They have no option but to absorb these energy costs because they have to use high-energy equipment, like the sterilising machines and suction machines. What engagement has the Government had with the GPs, dentists and other professions? Accountants will be working morning, noon and night in the context of the income tax deadline. What engagement has there been with the representative bodies of these professions in the context of amending this scheme to ensure that they are included in it?

The Taoiseach

The Minister announced the scheme in the budget in respect of companies in trade. He did not deal directly with the professions. There has to be an approach to this that is proportionate and so on. We are open to engaging with various different sectors, but the funding has to be targeted at those most in need to protect as many jobs as possible. However, there are also implications for services as well.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

In the past week I was contacted about three bus services that are full by the time they get to Headford, Spiddal and Clannbridge on their way to Galway. When I made an inquiry, I was informed that this is a much more general positive result of the reduction in public transport fees. There is no point in bringing in a good scheme and then leaving people standing in cold, windy and wet weather at bus stops with no buses. I also understand that applications will be sent to the National Transport Authority, NTA - instead of the National Transport Authority, it should be referred to as the "Never-Make-A-Decision Authority" because it is eternally slow - to provide extra buses to meet the capacity needs. It would be much better if services were staggered because it would give people more choice during rush hour. Can the Taoiseach ensure that the NTA will make overnight decisions on simple applications to provide enough buses to meet demand on these routes?

The Taoiseach

That is a fair point. Sometimes we make policy that is positive and popular and has the desired outcome in increasing the use of public transport. If we were to consider every eventuality, however, we would never make a decision in the first place. I make that as a general point. The NTA should make very quick decisions in terms of additionality. The capital is there to buy buses and to put additional services in place.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Taoiseach will be aware that there are many thousands of people with defects in their homes arising from the behaviour of the cowboy builders of the Celtic tiger era. The latter did not even deem it necessary to build proper houses. People are facing huge bills in the context of fire safety issues, water ingress and so on. There is one particular case that I would like the Taoiseach to look into, namely, that relating to Carrickmines Green. The National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, is in control of that estate and is refusing to remedy building defects, even though it has done so elsewhere. I am told by residents that NAMA has sold units to people who do not know that there are serious building defects. This is despite the fact that the residents themselves cannot sell, get insurance and so on. The Minister for Finance should instruct NAMA and its liquidators to remediate those homes as it has done in other estates where it has been in control of the properties.

The Taoiseach

I will engage with the Minister for Finance on that and ask him to check it out. I am not familiar with the individual case of property owned by NAMA, but I will certainly follow it up.

Deputy Paul Donnelly

In Dublin 15 there is no emergency accommodation. Would the Taoiseach support emergency planning legislation similar to that being used for the Ukrainian refugees and modular housing in local authorities like Fingal County Council so that we can house people who are currently facing a notice to quit in coming months?

The Taoiseach

Overall I would favour more modular housing as another form of house building that would help with the overall housing supply. We need to broaden the types of houses we build to accommodate people. These are good quality houses.

Deputy Paul Donnelly

Yes, I have seen them.

The Taoiseach

The modular houses that are being built cost up to €360,000. They are good quality houses that can last about 50 years. In the UK modular homes are being built.

Deputy Paul Donnelly

More important is the emergency planning legislation that is being used for Ukrainian refugees.

The Taoiseach

I have no issue with that. We need more supply. I am with the Deputy on that.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Does the Taoiseach share my concerns regarding the decision by RTÉ radio to drop a heavily sanitised interview it had recorded with the former Minister and former Deputy Shane Ross on his new book on Deputy McDonald? RTÉ has some very serious questions to answer. It is a publicly funded organisation, getting millions of euro of taxpayers' money in the recent budget. It has a duty of public service in its public broadcasting. I am not sure what or whom it is afraid of and what it is hiding. This is censorship of the highest order. I believe it has some very serious consequences for the national broadcaster. It is a very worrying development. Shane Ross was able to give interviews to Newstalk, Today FM and other independent radio stations. I believe RTÉ has questions to answer.

The Taoiseach

I do not know the background to the entire case other than to say that such a development has a chilling effect on public debate and on democracy. Of that there is no doubt. When the national broadcaster is sued by any organisation of considerable clout and heft, obviously the national broadcaster is taking a cautious position here and because of the fear of being sued will not broadcast the interview. That is something that demands greater transparency and explanation.

I found it intriguing that apparently a political party got access to the interview to listen to it prior to it being known. I do not think I was ever afforded that opportunity as the Leader of the Opposition - I stand to be corrected. Someone may have said, "Listen, have a listen to that there. Do you think we have permission to publish it?" It may not have been exactly in those terms. I do not think RTÉ was saying, "Give us permission to report." I am paraphrasing there which would not be correct I assume, but nonetheless-----

Deputy Paul Kehoe

The Taoiseach is correct.

The Taoiseach

I am correct insofar as it got to listen to it, but why RTÉ decided not to broadcast is a matter that needs explanation.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Where can I go to get an explanation?

The Taoiseach

I would suggest RTÉ.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Táimid ag bogadh ar aghaidh go dtí an dá rún gan díospóireacht.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Paul Kehoe

You would want to keep your good censorship, I can tell you.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Can we have a bit of respect for the Chair?

Deputy David Cullinane

Tell him to cop himself on.

The Taoiseach

It is all ahead of us.