Ivana Bacik
Question:1. Deputy Ivana Bacik asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent engagements with church leaders. [11009/23]
Ceisteanna - Questions
Church-State Relations
Mary Lou McDonald
Question:2. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent engagement with church leaders. [12442/23]
Richard Boyd Barrett
Question:3. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach if he will report on recent engagements with church leaders. [12857/23]
Bríd Smith
Question:4. Deputy Bríd Smith asked the Taoiseach if he will report on recent engagements with church leaders. [12860/23]
Gino Kenny
Question:5. Deputy Gino Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will report on recent engagements with church leaders. [12861/23]
Gary Gannon
Question:6. Deputy Gary Gannon asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent engagements with church leaders. [12654/23]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 6, inclusive, together.
The most recent formal meeting between the Office of the Taoiseach and church leaders took place on 15 April 2021 when the then Taoiseach, now Tánaiste, met with the leaders of the all-island Christian churches, including the Roman Catholic Church, Church of Ireland, Presbyterian Church, Methodist Church and Irish Council of Churches. I understand that discussions covered the ongoing contribution to peacebuilding and the work the churches undertake on an ongoing basis at community level in Northern Ireland. I recognise the importance of that engagement and of respect for all communities and traditions on these islands.
Like public representatives generally, and Ministers, I meet church leaders informally from time to time in the course of attending official or public events.
I want to raise a recent publication of which the Taoiseach may be aware, entitled A Dublin Magdalene Laundry - Donnybrook and Church-State Power in Ireland edited by Mark Coen, Katherine O'Donnell and Maeve O'Rourke. This new publication tells the story of Donnybrook Magdalen laundry, which was established in 1837 by the Religious Sisters of Charity. It reveals a significant amount of new information that is of significant political interest and two key questions arise from it. First, does the Taoiseach acknowledge that the book calls into question several key findings of the interdepartmental committee on the Magdalen laundries, the so-called McAleese committee that produced a report in 2013? The McAleese committee suggested, for example, that the financial records of the Donnybrook laundry did not survive but this book shows that some of them did and remained on site right up to the 1990s. The report says the Magdalen laundries operated on a break-even basis but the book shows that Donnybrook was generating a good financial surplus annually, up to half of which was transferred to the Religious Sisters of Charity. That surplus was generated by slavery - the unpaid work of girls and women. I will say it again - it was generated by the slavery of those women and girls incarcerated in laundries. Records discovered by Mark Coen in the Dublin Diocesan Archives prove that Donnybrook had a laundry contract with the military, although the McAleese report says that the committee was unable to verify this claim. The Department of Defence revoked the contract as the Religious Sisters of Charity were in violation of the fair wages clause that is in all State contracts but that fact is omitted from the McAleese report.
Will the Taoiseach acknowledge some key inaccuracies in the McAleese report that have been shown up by this book? Second, will the Government now introduce legislation to criminalise the destruction, alteration or failure to preserve institutional records by those who possess them, including those who were involved in these Magdalen laundries, which were terrible institutions?
What engagement has been had with church leaders on their respective contributions to the mother and baby homes redress scheme? What progress has been made on this matter?
Laura Murphy, the daughter of a mother and baby home survivor, penned an open letter to the Taoiseach, which was published online yesterday. In her letter she called on him to ensure that the Catholic Church contributes to redress and is brought into a meaningful process of truth, reconciliation and reparation. She called for all mother and baby home survivors to receive the redress that is rightfully theirs, including redress for all survivors and a State apology to those who were boarded out as children. The then Taoiseach told the Dáil in 2001 that boarded-out children were not cared for or looked after and often did not get their education. He also said that this was an issue that the Government could not ignore. Laura has now called on this Government to move from a space of retraumatisation to reparation, from abdication to accountability and from injustice to justice. Religious orders and the State had a direct hand in, and oversight of, the exploitation of such children, who were, in effect, abandoned to devastating exploitation and neglect within the families to which they were boarded out. Laura has made a really powerful argument for trauma-informed leadership and decision-making.
I really hope the Taoiseach will give Laura's open letter the consideration and the response it deserves.
The programme for Government commits to ensuring we develop an education system that serves everybody, whatever religion they are or if they have no religion whatsoever, and that commits to advancing the divestment programme. As we know, currently 90% of schools are in the hands of the Catholic Church. The schools run with their ethos, which is hardly appropriate for a country that is increasingly more religiously diverse and where indeed there are people who have no religion. Nor, for that matter, is it a great advertisement to people up North, if we are serious about having a united Ireland that breaks from the religious sectarianism of the past.
The latest evidence that the divestment programme is not going very well was seen in Raheny, where there were discussions for the reconfiguration of three Catholic schools, and it has run into serious trouble. It is not the first example of this, which points to the fact that the whole process of consultation is not working. While I can only read the reports, it is not the first time I have heard of this sort of thing. We do not have anybody who is really selling the benefits of divestment. There is also a concern among school communities and staff that in reconfiguration, school communities will lose out in terms of facilities and what is available for children etc.
As well as this, because the whole process is being designed between the Church and the State, there are certain people who do not really want to change the status quo and who are scaremongering about what the consequences of divestment might be, such as new patronage, reconfiguration etc. Raheny and other examples suggest that we have to look at the whole process of consultation again. We need to sell the benefits of divestment and of having a more secular education system. We need to ensure it is seen as a win for school communities in terms of the facilities that will be available and not as a possible threat to those school communities in terms of facilities, school buildings, sports facilities, or whatever it might be.
Since we are on the topic of divestment of schools, we are having quite a difficult experience in Ballyfermot with the divestment and amalgamation of schools. There needs to be more forward planning about how we carry it through. When you talk to parents, the vast majority of them say they are for non-ethos based education. Schools often carry out surveys to see how the parents will respond. The surveys are online and, like most surveys, they get a very low respondent rate. The respondents they do get tend to state, "I want my kids to grow up in a Catholic school". This is because the respondents tend to be those who are positive about the status quo. We therefore need to find a different tool to ascertain how the population in general feels about non-ethos based education. My own view for a long time and that of People Before Profit-Solidarity is in our Bill which is sitting in the waiting room for a long time for the Government to bring in a non-ethos based sex education and consent programme and that would allow for divestment to happen much more freely. It would mean that if parents want their children to have religious education, then they can send them to a religious class, but otherwise, the school would be non-religious. That is the easiest way to proceed. If you are Muslim and you want your kids to have a Muslim education, they can go to a Muslim class, and likewise if you are a Catholic. We need to think about this much more clearly and be much more proactive as a State in saying it will happen in the lifetime of this Government. I hope this will be the case, however short or long that lifetime will be.
I will take the questions in order. I have received a copy of the book Deputy Bacik referred to, but I have not yet had time to read it, so I cannot comment on the assertions made by the authors or adjudicate on them. In relation to records relating to Magdalen laundries, major work is currently under way to establish a central repository of records within the national centre for research and remembrance. The repository will encompass records related to industrial schools, reformatories, Magdalen laundries, mother and baby homes and related institutions.
In April 2022, a steering group comprising the main State stakeholders involved in the development of the national centre was established. The group is responsible for developing the overall vision of the centre and for providing strategic oversight for the design, development, co-ordination and implementation of composite elements. Work on the creation of the central repository of records to sit within the national centre is being led by the National Archives under the auspices of the steering group. It is envisaged that the repository will include the historical records of the institutions, including industrial schools, Magdalen laundries, mother and baby and county home institutions and orphanages. Work on the creation of the central repository is assisted by a dedicated legal and legislative subgroup which is considering whether any additional legislative measures are needed for the creation and management of the archive. This includes the protection of records.
The Birth Information and Tracing Act 2022 already provides an important foundation for the creation of the central repository. This is because it mandates the safeguarding of relevant records, including where such records are privately held. However, privately held records relating to Magdalen laundries would fall outside the scope of the safeguarding provisions. This is something that was being explored further as a matter of priority.
Deputy McDonald asked about contributions by religious orders to the various compensation schemes that the Government has set up. We believe all relevant parties have a shared moral and ethical obligation to assist with appropriate actions in response to the commission's reports. The Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy O'Gorman, has commenced an engagement with all religious congregations and church leaders with a view to discussing how they might contribute to the payment scheme. However, it should be noted there is no clear mechanism by which we could require them or force them to do so.
In relation to children who were boarded out, it is the view of the Government that a statutory inquiry into the practice of boarding out is not likely to provide additional information to what was provided in the commission's final report. It was decided that a general payment based on time spent in institutions was the best option to provide for a non-adversarial approach to the mother and baby institutions payment scheme. This approach unfortunately does not cater for the circumstances of all people who were boarded out which, given the very individual experiences would have to be assessed on a case-by-case basis. However, if a person spent time in an institution prior to being boarded out as a child, they would qualify for the payment scheme based on their time spent in the institution. The Government's action plan for survivors and former residents of mother and baby and county home institutions includes other measures that will provide assistance to those who were boarded out as children such as, for example, birth information and tracing, and commitments to restorative resolution.
Some Deputies raised the issue of reconfiguration, and while I know people have different views on that, the most important view is that we try to respect the wishes of parents and indeed the parents of future pupils of particular schools. We must also take into account the views of staff. I am somebody who supports greater choice around education and education ethos. I appreciate this is easier to do in urban areas than rural areas. However, in my constituency, for example, there are Educate Together, national schools and secondary schools, Catholic Archdiocese schools, a Church of Ireland school, Gaelscoileanna and a number of community and national schools.
After a survey of parents in Tyrrelstown a decision was made to establish a new Le Chéile secondary school. Similarly, in the Castleknock area, a new secondary school will soon be formally opened under the patronage of the Edmund Rice Schools Trust. It is important to take into account what parents actually want and what their wishes are. I do not agree with forced secularisation of our education system.
If a school is working well and parents are happy with how it is working, that view should be respected.
On more information being provided, the Department of Education sets out that there are 166 multidenominational or interdenominational primary schools, an increase of seven on last year, and this is part of a longer-term trend, with the number of multidenominational primary schools rising from 85 to 165. That is an increase of nearly 50% in the past ten years. At post-primary level, the number of multidenominational schools has increased by 16 from 343 in 2011 to 359 now. During the period from 2011, when the current arrangement on the establishment of new schools was introduced, 53 new primary schools and 50 new post-primary schools have been established. Of these, 52 of the 53 are multidenominational and one is interdenominational. When it comes to post-primary schools, there are 50 new ones, of which 44 are multidenominational, five Catholic and one Church of Ireland.
Gender Equality
Ivana Bacik
Question:7. Deputy Ivana Bacik asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the events in his Department to mark International Women's Day; and the measures he has taken to improve gender equality in his Department. [11058/23]
Jennifer Murnane O'Connor
Question:8. Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the events in his Department to mark International Women's Day; and the measures he has taken to improve gender equality in his Department. [12705/23]
Gary Gannon
Question:9. Deputy Gary Gannon asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the events in his Department to mark International Women's Day; and the measures he has taken to improve gender equality in his Department. [12655/23]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 7 to 9, inclusive, together.
International Women's Day is marked annually on 8 March and is an important day for recognising the social, economic, cultural, and political achievements of women in Ireland and women around the world. It is a day to honour the contributions of women, as well as to advocate for greater gender equality and women's rights. The campaign theme for this year was: “Embrace Equity: equity isn't just nice-to-have; it's a requirement". The Department of the Taoiseach actively encouraged staff to attend a range of events to mark International Women’s Day 2023, including the Civil Service lead webinar: Stronger Together - Real Equality Works for Everyone.
The Government is committed to responding to the matters raised by the citizens’ assembly and the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Gender Equality, and empowering women and girls. As part of the response, and on International Women’s Day, the Government agreed that referendums would be held in November 2023 to amend the Constitution as recommended by the Citizens’ Assembly on Gender Equality and the special Oireachtas Joint Committee on Gender Equality. This will begin with an interdepartmental process to determine the policy scope of the referendums and to develop policy recommendations for consideration by Government, which held its first meeting yesterday. I want Ireland to be a world leader on gender equality. Until we have full equality between men and women, that is parity, we are a Republic unfinished.
We have already implemented new gender pay gap legislation, with many public and private organisations publishing their first gender pay gap reports, as required under the legislation in 2022. This has brought much-needed visibility and transparency to the gap that still exists in pay levels between men and women in most companies and organisations. We are also increasing parent’s leave so that both parents can spend more time with their children in those vital early years. The gender quota for candidates has increased to 40% for Dáil elections and the Government has agreed to introduce legislation to provide greater gender balance on corporate boards ahead of the EU deadline of 2026. We have also commenced the drafting of legislation to create a new statutory agency dedicated to dealing with and reducing domestic, sexual and gender-based violence.
The Department of the Taoiseach is committed to a policy of equal opportunities for all staff and recognises that a more diverse workforce, helped by an inclusive culture, can improve organisational capacity, boosting creativity and innovation and lead to better decision-making. The Department offers a range of flexible working arrangements to all staff, including shorter working weeks and blended working arrangements. It also offers additional assistance to all staff in career development and the opportunity to pursue promotional opportunities throughout their employment journeys. The Department will also continue to review its actions to improve gender equality to smooth career progression and to promote more women to senior positions.
I welcome the announcement the Taoiseach made on International Women's Day that the Government will hold a gender equality referendum in November, and I welcome his commitment that the proposals will be published by the end of June. Can the Taoiseach confirm that the proposals for the referendum will be aligned with the recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly on Gender Equality and that the wording that we on the Joint Committee on Gender Equality agreed on a cross-party basis will be under active consideration in forming the basis for that important referendum this year?
Second, I ask the Taoiseach about recommendation 8 of our committee's report, which took up the citizens' assembly proposal that over the next decade Ireland should move to a publicly-funded, accessible and regulated model of quality and affordable early years childcare and education. We are conscious that there is a chronic shortage of childcare places and many parents are struggling to find a place. They need a State guarantee that every child will be assigned an early years education and childcare place. We recognise that the Government has taken measures to improve affordability and the cross-party report also recognised that but the lack of places available and the lack of affordability of places in childcare and early years facilities is having a detrimental impact on women and on women's workplace and employment opportunities in particular. I am asking for some clarification on the referendum and on the Government's proposals for childcare.
It was so important to mark International Women's Day on 8 March and it is critically important that we ensure significant and meaningful participation at every level of society. I call on all women to explore politics and to have a seat at the decision-making table, whether that is in their local club, school, the county council or even in these Houses of the Parliament. One of the issues I brought up on that day, which I was so disappointed to hear about, is that nine counties in Ireland have no women's refuge. I am passionate about a women's refuge for Carlow. I know a lot of work has been done, I know a lot of the stakeholders are meeting and I meet them regularly. Tusla has approved an external consultant but it is critically important that Carlow gets a women's refuge, as it is for the other eight counties that do not have one. We cannot be in a position where any county does not have a women's refuge. I have spoken to the Minister for Justice and the Tánaiste on this and I will continue to do so. Timing is critical in this and we must get our women's refuge in Carlow delivered as soon as possible.
I want to add to that contribution in the same vein. The Minister for Justice commissioned an independent study into familicide and domestic homicide almost four years ago. The fair procedure strand of that process was concluded before the study was submitted to the Minister last summer but the report is still on the desk unpublished. The programme for Government, as the Taoiseach knows, commits to legislating to introduce domestic homicide reviews. A system such as this was established in the North in 2020 and a similar process has been in place in Britain for more than a decade. It is a valuable tool, not just to assess what happened but to prevent traumatic events such as this. We have one of the highest rates of domestic abuse and femicide in Europe, yet I see no urgency from Government in meeting the commitment to introduce this critical tool. When will this study be published and when will the legislation be advanced?
I might raise a second issue. I have raised the issue of boarded-out children and catering for them under the redress scheme. I am minded of Derek Leinster, who had an experience of the Bethany Home in Rathgar, a Protestant institution. Unspeakable cruelty took place in that institution and there were unbelievable mortality rates among very young children there, which was horrific. Like Derek, many of them were boarded out. Derek died last November and lots of us knew him really well as he was a great campaigner. He always felt left behind on two counts, first, because he was boarded out and brutalised on the watch of the State, and yet that experience has been given lip service and nothing else. Second, he was a Protestant citizen and there was always a niggling suspicion in his mind and in the minds of others who came through that institution, that somehow they were lesser.
There are many shortcomings with the redress scheme, for example this six-month rule is just abhorrent and obnoxious. I urge again that this issue of children who were boarded out and brutalised and the issue of Bethany Home in my own home neighbourhood and in Deputy Bacik's constituency, will not be glossed over.
These questions and issues do not go away. Such was the nature of the trauma young children and babies experienced. I thank an Cathaoirleach Gníomhach for his indulgence.
There are two other Deputies but we have only six minutes left. I ask them to please be brief so the Taoiseach can respond.
I will be brief. I would like the Taoiseach to comment on the recently published report on stalking and harassment put together by the two doctors in UCC. It was widely publicised and was inspired by the bravery of Una Ring and Eve McDowell. There were ten recommendations in that report. They include training and education for gardaí and a new wording on stalking offences. Do we have a plan to train and educate gardaí on stalking and harassment? As recently as last week, I met a woman who works in Dublin 8 and has been seriously stalked, frightened and threatened. Every time she goes to the Garda she feels it is a case of #IDoNotBelieveHer because the gardaí ignore her and tell her she is imagining things. This is a serious problem. It is also a serious problem that if and when these perpetrators are jailed for a crime of harassment or stalking, they eventually get out of prison while the victims are left at home worrying about the situation. There are a whole load of unanswered questions in this regard. I commend the report. It has done a fabulous job on a problem that needs to be looked at. I would like to hear the Taoiseach's comments on it. I am sure he is aware of it and his Department has probably looked at it. If not, the Department of Justice must have.
At the International Women's Day protest, one of the biggest issues of concern to people was the housing crisis. We have had extensive debate about the Government's decision to lift the eviction ban. One of the features of those who are going into homelessness is how many of them are women and children and the impact that has on children. I will give the Taoiseach an example. What are people like this supposed to do? Is anything going to change? I have a constituent who is four years in emergency accommodation with her son. They have been in one room together for four years. That child, whose mental health is on the floor, has been in emergency accommodation since he was about eight and is still in the same single room with his mother at the age of 12. You can imagine how difficult that makes bringing friends around and what that does to his mental health. This woman actually works with vulnerable people in Tusla but she was knocked off the list because she is over the threshold. She has now been told she is not getting her time back because it was a little before the 14 months, which has turned out to be 13 and a half months. This is the kind of stuff people have to deal with. I just looked at an advertisement for Cherrywood, for the two-bedroom apartment she might look to live in. It is the biggest residential development in our area. Does the Taoiseach know how much those apartments are being advertised for today? The rents are €2,600 a month. What is she supposed to do? I am genuinely asking. This does not even relate to the eviction ban debate because she is in homeless accommodation. What is she supposed to do to get out of that situation?
We have two minutes left. If the Taoiseach strays over that, it will take time from the next slot.
Okay. Deputy Bacik asked about the interdepartmental group on the referendum, which met for the first time in the last few days. I have the report and the minutes from the meeting on my desk. Like many things on my desk, I have not had a chance to look at them just yet but I hope to do so in the next few days. It is my expectation that the group will follow, or at least seek to follow, the recommendations of the joint committee and that that will be the basis for what we decide to do. That would involve looking at the three areas of an equality amendment, the definition of family in our Constitution and how we properly recognise care in our Constitution. Whether it will be one referendum or two, or possibly three, has not been figured out yet. Crucially, we need to figure out the correct wording, how it might be interpreted by the courts and what enabling legislation might be required to realise that constitutional change. While it is not always the case with referendums, we would often publish the enabling legislation that would become possible because of the change to the Constitution. It is important to get referendums right. We want these to pass and we want to make sure we are able to answer any questions that arise or rebut any extraneous issues that are thrown into the mix, which so often happens in referendums.
With regard to childcare and early years education, the Government has four priorities. The first is to reduce the cost. We reduced the cost this year and I hope, public finances permitting, that we will be able to reduce the cost for parents again next year. Second, increasing capacity is a real challenge. There are lots of cases of parents in my constituency who are struggling to get childcare places at all, particularly for babies. The third priority is quality. We are raising quality all the time because this is not just childcare; it is also early years education. Fourth is improving the terms and conditions and pay of the staff who work in the sector and making sure it is an attractive career choice.
It would be a good idea to do a pilot of a publicly-provided childcare and early years system. Many people coming from an ideological point of view will always take the view that a publicly-provided service must be better than a privately-provided service. I would point to our health service and how well our GP and pharmacy services work even though they are privately provided. It is not always the case that something that is publicly provided is better than something that is privately provided and our health service is an example of that. It would be worth doing the pilot to see how it measures up in terms of cost, quality, staffing and other issues.
I do not think a week passes where Deputy Murnane O'Connor does not raise issues pertaining to Carlow with me. She is certainly looking out for her county, as all Deputies do - some more than others. We have a multi-annual programme under way in relation to women's refuges. There are new places every year and around 90 will be provided this year. We need a better geographic spread, particularly identifying regions where there is no refuge. I am not sure when we will get to the point of having one in every county but that would certainly be desirable. I do not have an update on Carlow yet but I can certainly ask the Minister for Justice, Deputy Harris, or the Minister without Portfolio, Deputy McEntee, to provide that to the Deputy.
Regarding the wider issues that were raised about domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, DSGBV, last June the Government launched a new strategy to combat domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. It is an ambitious five-year programme of reform aimed at achieving a society that does not accept DSGBV or the attitudes that underpin it. It is a €363 million strategy and the accompanying implementation plan contains 144 detailed actions for implementation. Implementation will be underpinned by strong political oversight at central government level via the Cabinet committee on social affairs and public services. The strategy provides for the establishment of a statutory DSGBV agency under the aegis of the Department of Justice, which will drive this work and bring the expertise and focus needed. Education and awareness-raising are also part of the Government's fight against sexual and gender-based violence and we are working on national campaigns to raise awareness, including on the meaning of consent. Some of the main actions under the strategy include doubling the number of refuge spaces available in Ireland, which I mentioned earlier, national sexual violence and domestic violence prevalence studies to be conducted at five-year intervals, new legislation introducing a specific offence of non-fatal strangulation and a specific offence of stalking, which was referred to by Deputy Smith. I am aware of the report she mentioned and have seen the media coverage. I have not had a chance to read it yet but there will be a Government response to it in early course, most likely coming from the Minister for Justice.
Does the Taoiseach have any answer to my question?
It is very fair of the Deputy to ask the question he asked but as is so often the case when he raises individual cases in the Dáil, and I know they are real cases, it is very hard to comment on them without understanding all the detail. I have a constituency service too and get lots of housing queries - believe you me - and try to deal with them and help people as much as possible. You have to understand all the details. From what the Deputy said, I do not know all the details.
I think the Deputy may have said the person no longer qualifies for social housing. It is almost impossible for me to know what the options are without knowing all the facts and financial information and so on.
Cabinet Committees
Mick Barry
Question:10. Deputy Mick Barry asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Government co-ordination will next meet. [11398/23]
Cian O'Callaghan
Question:11. Deputy Cian O'Callaghan asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Government co-ordination will next meet. [12945/23]
Ivana Bacik
Question:12. Deputy Ivana Bacik asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Government co-ordination will next meet. [13428/23]
Gary Gannon
Question:13. Deputy Gary Gannon asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Government co-ordination will next meet. [12656/23]
Richard Boyd Barrett
Question:14. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Government co-ordination will next meet. [12863/23]
Bríd Smith
Question:15. Deputy Bríd Smith asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Government co-ordination will next meet. [12866/23]
Gino Kenny
Question:16. Deputy Gino Kenny asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Government co-ordination will next meet. [12868/23]
Mary Lou McDonald
Question:17. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on Government co-ordination will next meet. [12973/23]
Tógfaidh mé Ceisteanna Uimh. 10 go 17, go huile, le chéile.
The Cabinet committee on Government co-ordination generally meets in advance of Government meetings and is scheduled to meet again on Monday, 27 March. The committee reviews the agenda for Government meetings the next day, looks forward to Government meetings to come, discusses political priorities and reviews the activity of Cabinet committees. I am a member of the committee alongside the Tánaiste and the leader of the Green Party. The committee is also attended by the Secretary General of the Government, my chief of staff and the chiefs of staff of the Tánaiste and the Leader of the Green Party.
Twenty-four people died in a 51-bed nursing home at Ballynoe in Cork in the third wave of Covid-19 at the start of 2021. "Prime Time" recently revealed that the HSE was notified of the outbreak on 8 January but did not visit the home until 16 February. A HIQA visit, after 22 people were already dead, found nine unreported deaths, multiple violations of infection control regulations and no Covid-19 risk management plan. I believe the privatisation of the nursing home sector and the for-profit ethos were major factors in tragedies such as that at Ballynoe. There is a clear need for an inquiry into what happened at Ballynoe and in the nursing home sector generally during the pandemic. Does the Taoiseach agree and, if so, when will such an inquiry take place?
On Government co-ordination on the decision not to extend the eviction ban, I ask the Taoiseach again if he has been presented with any analysis or reasoning by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage as to the effect that the lifting of the ban will have, not only on rising homeless figures but also on the numbers of landlords and private rental properties available. I am conscious that in response to a question from my colleague, Deputy Duncan Smith, ten days ago, the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage said no modelling had been done prior to the decision to lift the ban. Has the Taoiseach obtained any modelling since the Government took the decision to lift the ban? In particular, can he stand over the assertion made by the Minister in last night's debate that if the ban had been extended, it would have shrunk the numbers of private landlords who are offering rental accommodation to tenants? I challenged the Minister on that assertion because we have been told that no modelling or research was done on the likely impact of either lifting or extending the ban prior to the decision made by the Government not to extend it further. I am asking about further research and Government co-ordination on the basis of research and evidence.
Has consideration been given to the legislation I sent to the Taoiseach? This draft legislation would provide for a results-based mechanism for determining the duration of an eviction ban in the future?
I found the Taoiseach's answer to my previous question rather evasive. I will frame the question again. It is not just about the individual case; it is about how that case epitomises the failure of the Government to understand what is going on or its wilful denial of what is going on. What is not particularly specific to this case is that there is somebody trapped in homeless accommodation. Somebody who gets up every day to work has been in homeless accommodation for four years. Does that not in and of itself make the Taoiseach think there is something wrong here? How could somebody be in homeless accommodation for four years? This is a person who gets up to work every morning. It is not due to a lack of energy or drive on their part. There is something wrong with the policy that allows that to happen. I heard the Taoiseach say the majority of people who are evicted will probably not end up homeless. I do not know how he can make that assertion when, in the biggest residential development in the State where the Government could help solve the housing crisis in south Dublin, the new apartments are being advertised at monthly rents of €2,600. How is any average worker on an average income supposed to afford that? If the woman I mentioned is eligible for the housing assistance payment, HAP, which for a while she was not, she would not be allowed to rent one of those apartments and if she is not eligible for HAP, she has no chance of being able to rent one. She is in a trap. Does the Taoiseach understand the point?
I remind the Deputy that we have two more questioners.
I am finished.
Deputy Boyd Barrett has set out the case of being damned if you do and damned if you do not, and the horrible trap that people are caught in.
The Cabinet committee for Government co-ordination meets in advance of the Cabinet meeting. The Taoiseach took the decision to end the eviction ban on 7 March so the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and the associated officials would have met on 6 March. At that stage, did the Taoiseach have the Residential Tenancies Board, RTB, figures? Was he aware that in the final quarter of last year, almost 5,000 eviction notices had been issued? Was that information available to him when the Cabinet committee met on 6 March?
There is widespread agreement, including a fair amount among Government backbenchers, that it is crazy to lift the eviction ban. The Government has made a number of proposals. It is bonkers that anyone would consider lifting the ban until those proposals were at least in place. Regarding the tenant in situ scheme, specifically in relation to HAP, are instructions given to local authorities regarding the criteria? We are all hearing that people need to be on the housing list for five years or more depending on the county council or that they cannot avail of the scheme if there is a room too many or too few in the property. The criteria also appear to differ across county lines, depending on where the HAP is paid and what county council area the property is located in. There has been no clarity provided on a number of these issues. When will we get clarity on the possibility of local authorities or approved housing bodies, AHBs, purchasing premises for those who cannot avail of HAP, do not make the thresholds and are also facing eviction?
The Deputies have raised a number of important questions but given the time allowed, I will prioritise answering the questions that relate to the Cabinet committee on Government co-ordination, which is the issue addressed in the group. Regarding the reasoning given to us by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage for the lifting of the eviction moratorium, the Department's advice and the advice of the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage - line Ministers will attend these committees on occasion if it is relevant to their brief - was that there were three options. The first option was to end the moratorium as planned on 31 March, which is what we voted for in this House. The second option was to introduce a rolling winter ban like they have in France. The third option was a two-year extension because the view was not taken by the officials that an extension of four, six or five and a half months would be a credible option. I know the Opposition parties think differently in that regard. The strong advice from the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage and his officials was to go for option one and end the moratorium as planned on 31 March.
Was the Minister at the meeting?
We certainly met the Minister. I cannot remember exactly which meeting he attended or did not attend but we certainly met him. He almost certainly was there but there was more than one meeting on this, as the Deputy can imagine. The very strong assessment from the officials was to go for the option of ending the moratorium as planned on 31 March.
In terms of statistical modelling, the view is that it is impossible for anyone to do accurate statistical modelling on something like this. When the eviction ban was put in place, most of us expected to see a fall in the number of people in emergency accommodation because that is what happened when it was previously in place during the pandemic. We now understand better that there are many other factors at play. We always understood that there were entries and exits and that exits had to be taken into account as well as the entries. The entries into homelessness are manifold. The reason we have seen the numbers of people in emergency accommodation continue to rise even while the eviction ban has been in place is that there have not been enough exits but also that there have been continuing entries. The biggest reason for people becoming homeless in the last number of months is family breakdown. I am not sure what statistician can model how many families will break down in any particular period.
There is also the issue of rising numbers of non-citizens and non-citizen families who are becoming homeless. That has increased from 14% or 15% in 2014 to nearly 40% now. It is impossible to model accurately how many people from outside the State will seek emergency accommodation.
Did the Taoiseach have the RTB figures?
I do not think any modelling has been done by the Opposition. We had an indication of the RTB figures but not the exact figures. They indicated two things. One was an uptick in notices to quit driven by the eviction ban. Landlords got the message, in part as a consequence of the eviction ban, and it accelerated the number of landlords that were leaving. That bothered us and is one of the reasons why the option was recommended that the eviction ban and threat of further eviction bans or extensions would accelerate the exit of landlords, thus increasing homelessness and driving up rents. That was definitely part of the rationale. We were also advised, and Members should know this if they do not already, that comparisons between the numbers per quarter now and previous quarters are not valid because there was a change in the law and the way notices to quit are counted. Anyone making a comparison of the third quarter of last year, or the figures to come for quarter four of last year, with previous quarters is not being accurate, because that is very clear.
The Taoiseach just did that. He said there was accelerated-----
What about the Ballynoe inquiry?
That concludes Taoiseach's Questions.
What about nursing homes?
The Taoiseach outlined that. He was responding to questions.
I cannot respond to that. It is not a matter for the co-ordination committee. Perhaps I can come back to Deputy Barry at a different point.
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