Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 26 Sep 2024

Vol. 1058 No. 5

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Matt Carthy

As we meet here, Israel's genocide in Gaza continues, Israel's attacks on the West Bank continue and now Israel's bombardment of Lebanon continues and Israeli leaders are openly discussing a land invasion. Israel is committing war crimes every day. That state is in flagrant violation of international law, just as it has been not for a year but for several decades. Today, we are on the brink of a global humanitarian and security catastrophe. Every time we think things cannot get any worse, Israel proves us wrong. Why is this? How could it be that a state that enjoys the most preferential trading, economic and diplomatic relationship with the western world would be in a position to literally brag about consigning the international rule book to the dustbin of history? The answer is, of course, that Israeli forces murder innocent Palestinian and now Lebanese people at will because they believe they can do so with impunity. This is because they have never faced a consequence for their actions.

The Irish people have long believed that Israel should face consequences. They recall how measures taken by Ireland helped, even in a small way, to bring an end to South African apartheid. For years, they have been demanding that we do the same in respect of Israeli apartheid in Palestine. One of the things that we can do and, in fact, should have done years ago, is to enact the Control of Economic Activity (Occupied Territories) Bill 2018. The Bill is not controversial or, at least, it should not be. It simply bans trade with and economic support for illegal settlements and territories deemed occupied under international law. The Tánaiste's party supported it when it was in opposition. It not only supported it but ran a roadshow in towns and cities across Ireland setting out its importance. Fine Gael, on the other hand, as we know, opposed the passage of the legislation every step of the way. Despite this, the legislation was adopted by the Dáil and the Seanad, but Fine Gael Governments have blocked its enactment. On entering Government, Fianna Fáil and the Green Party, it has to be said, have allowed Fine Gael to continue blocking this legislation. We have heard the excuses as to why the Bill has not been enacted. Reporting from The Ditch website suggests that following a confidential and unrecorded call with the Minister, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, Israeli officials were in little doubt that the Bill would be blocked by the Fine Gael Government. We are told that Israeli officials emphasised that this was a confidential call and that, of course, chimes with the Minister, Deputy Donohoe's own failure to record it in his ministerial diary and the Tánaiste's contention that the Minister cannot recall the conversation.

A Cheann Comhairle, caithfimid dlí idirnáisiúnta agus an daonnacht a chosaint. Caithfidh Iosrael a bheith freagrach as na rudaí a dhéanann sí. While the Tánaiste's language has, welcomely, changed over the past year, moving on from a point where he would not even condemn Israel by name to finally moving on the recognition of Palestine, the truth is that his Government cannot point to a single sanction that Ireland has imposed on the Israeli state for its actions. In that context, I must ask if the Tánaiste agrees that the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, and, indeed, all Ministers should set out clearly the details of any engagements they have had with their Israeli counterparts or officials? Above all, however, does he agree that it is now time for the Government to take action against an Israeli state that has been in grievous breach of international law for decades and is currently conducting a genocide against the Palestinian people? Will he commit today to enacting the Control of Economic Activity (Occupied Territories) Bill 2018, to allowing the passage of Sinn Féin's Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023 and to taking other measures to ensure Ireland can clearly state that here, at least, there are consequences for a powerful state that embarks on cowardly and depraved attacks against civilian populations?

The Tánaiste

I thank the Deputy for raising this extremely important issue. The carnage and the slaughter of innocent children, women and men across the Middle East is to be condemned and I have condemned it consistently. The action of Hamas on 7 October 2023 was horrific and heinous, but the Israeli response to that murderous attack by Hamas has been absolutely disproportional, has resulted in the levelling of Gaza, near famine conditions in Gaza and the killing of more than 40,000 people. In my view, that is reprehensible. Likewise, I have condemned the escalation into Lebanon, where the intensity of that bombardment is such that again innocent men, women and children are being killed. At every international forum and again this week in New York, where I have just come back from, I have focused particularly on the Middle East question. I attended the International Peace Institute dinner on Monday evening with all the Arab partners and other interested partners in respect of endeavouring to get the Middle East on a pathway to a two-state solution and the resolution of this.

Yesterday, I met with the Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority. He was very grateful to Ireland and very appreciative of Ireland's consistent stance in support of international humanitarian law and the Palestinian right to self-determination. I met with the Jordanian Foreign Minister yesterday as well, and he again reiterated, as he has done on numerous occasions, his appreciation for Ireland standing up for Palestinian self-determination and a two-state solution. It was similar with the Egyptian Foreign Minister yesterday too.

I will say to the Deputy generally that I have noticed a tendency on his behalf to sort of create a division or almost to suggest that the Government parties are not fully committed to either the two-state solution and Palestinian self-determination or to calling out blatant violations of international humanitarian law. The view outside Ireland is that we have been one of the leading countries in actually standing up for what is right. That is the view externally. I think it is regrettable that, at times, the Deputy has sought to sow the seeds of division or almost drive a wedge in this regard or create a sort of politically advantageous position on this issue vis-à-vis the Government parties. The issue is far too serious for that.

One significant development in recent months has been the conclusions of the International Court of Justice in respect of its advisory opinion on the occupation of Palestinian territories. This is a very serious conclusion by the court. It must be remembered that Ireland supported the resolution that led to that advisory opinion. The Attorney General made submissions on behalf of the country in this regard. During yesterday's discussions with the Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority, the debate focused on how we can use that finding, the advisory opinion, in respect of the illegality of the occupation and in respect of how member states and those who have signed up to the ICJ, because this is the very apex of international humanitarian law and observations, can now progress it. We focused on a timeline to seeing what we can do in this regard.

As the Deputy knows, Ireland, in conjunction with Spain, wrote to the European Commission calling for a review of the EU-Israel association agreement. Josep Borrell, the High Representative, has now sought legal advice on the ICJ opinion.

In respect of the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, I spoke to him before I came in this morning.

He is clear that he did not make any such phone call. His published diary does not record any such phone call. It speaks to people rushing to judgment before ascertaining the full facts. He is very clear and I think Deputy Carthy should perhaps withdraw the assertions in his earlier public statements in that regard.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Make or take?

Deputy Matt Carthy

My assertions amounted to a request that all Government Ministers clarify the full interactions they have had with Israeli Government Ministers and state officials. You did not answer whether that would be forthcoming. You set out very clearly and rightly the realities of Israeli actions in both Palestine and Lebanon, but you did not set out any consequences for those actions. I have no doubt that there are many within the international community who are very grateful for the positions Ireland has taken. I am very glad that Ireland speaks out against a grievous record of atrocities on the part of the Israeli State against the Palestinian people. I make no apologies for saying we must go further. There has to be consequences. The reason Israel continues to do what it is doing is because it has faced not a single consequence for the unrelenting and unmitigated murder of children, women and innocent men across many, many years. My question, as a leader of a party that ran public meetings up and down this State encouraging support for the enactment of the occupied territories Bill, now that you are in the position you are in, if you will ensure that your Government does that now; not tomorrow, next week, or next year when countless more innocent people will have been killed, but now.

The Tánaiste

Again, Ireland along with Spain, were the first more recent European Union member states to recognise the State of Palestine. Slovenia has now followed on the recognition question and Norway also did that. We were central to turning around the narrative on UNRWA within the European Union and stopping the denial of vital aid into UNRWA, and likewise in terms of aid and support from the Commission to the Palestinian Authority, which should have been far more frequent and should not have been subjected to stop-start as it was.

On the legal front, we have pursued all avenues of justice which does challenge Israel in respect of international humanitarian law. It is something that they do take umbrage at and have taken particular umbrage at Ireland's positioning before the ICJ and ICC and in respect of the recognition question and our general stance overall. The legal advice that previous Attorneys General gave in respect of the occupied territories Bill was that it was contrary to European Union law in respect of the conduct of trade. There is further advice being sought in respect of that but also in the context of the International Court of Justice's advisory opinion, which, as I say, is being sought by our Government but also at European Union level in respect of the obligations on EU member states in respect of the ICJ's advisory opinion. It is a very significant turning point and Europe has to face up to that reality.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are way over time.

Deputy Ged Nash

In five day's time we will have the annual budget. True to form, most of the major announcements will be leaked over the weekend. The State is in an unprecedented situation. Billions are available to invest yet there is a poverty of ambition and no vision. We live in a rich country that feels so poor. It is a country of winners and losers. Ireland has a chronic infrastructural deficit. Despite recent increases in the capital budget, as a percentage of overall Government spending it remains below where it was in 2008. Two weeks ago, the Minister, Deputy Chambers said you would have €3 billion extra to spend on infrastructure from the sale of AIB shares. The summer economic statement outlines an increase in capital spending of €1.7 billion under the national development plan, up to €14.5 billion, bolstered by what I have described as the gimmick of €750 million of so-called windfall receipts. That leaves a gap of €1.3 billion. Is the Minister for Finance planning to formally change the capital spending allocations? Will there be a new national development plan or are we going to get more fiscal gimmickry in this budget? Will the Tánaiste confirm today that the Government intends to increase the budget figures that were published in July in the summer economic statement? We need to invest more, not in gold-plated bike sheds or security huts but in our hospitals, public transport, retrofitting and most critically in housing. The greatest workers' rights issue remains housing. Prices rose by 10% last year. Affordability is the problem. We need much-increased supply of over 50,000 new homes a year. Government policies like Help to Buy have actually hiked up prices. The ESRI confirmed this last year. It has driven demand rather than boosting supply. It is making homes dearer. Reports today suggest the Minister wants the cap to increase above half a million. Is it Fianna Fáil policy to subsidise the cost of housing costing more than half a million? Driving development needs increased funding from the State and policy certainty. Planning law has been changed almost yearly in recent years. Crucially, the residential zoned land tax has become a political football. We still do not know if it is going to be in place next year. We do not have a revised housing target from the target and no clear sense if it will invest more when the private market and developers have failed to build enough. Housing for All proposes to build 10,000 social housing units next year and 6,400 affordable and cost rental homes. That is barely any increase on this year, and you say Housing for All is the only show in town.

The Labour Party will outline its budget plans tomorrow to increase that by up to 6,000 more units a year, focused on public and affordable homes. Can the Tánaiste guarantee that the residential zoned land tax will be operational next year? Does he agree with increasing Help to Buy for homes costing more than half a million? Are the Minister for Finance and the Minister for public expenditure going to increase capital spending above what was in the summer economic statement? Will the budget commit to increasing the number of social and affordable homes that will be built, way beyond what is committed to in the Housing for All policy?

The Tánaiste

I thank the Deputy for his remarks. I would argue that there is no poverty of ambition. This year we are spending up to €13 billion plus on capital infrastructure, which is significantly higher than previous years. The rate and level of capital expenditure during this Government's term has been significantly higher than previous Governments. The challenge with capital expenditure, of course, is the balance of making sure you do not overheat the economy in terms of the allocation of additional billions. What we have done, which shows real ambition for the future, is establish the Future Ireland Fund and the Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund, where we are essentially future-proofing infrastructure for the long haul and giving confidence and certainty to industry, to the housing sector and the other sectors, that we intend to maintain expenditure levels or increase them progressively over the next number of years notwithstanding the potential of cyclical changes. There will be ups and downs in the economy, revenue could go down but through the Infrastructure, Climate and Nature fund, we are saying we will have a fund there to make sure we get the metro done, get the roads we want done built, get more schools and hospitals built and infrastructure more generally.

There will be a release of additional capital from the AIB shares. It is fairly clear that this will be allocated to infrastructure, principally housing, to future-proof housing expenditure right through the decade, and water infrastructure. It is key, particularly for the towns and villages across the country, that we mandate Irish Water to do more with local authorities in respect of villages, towns and the water treatment provision and plants in such towns. Of course, investment in the grid is going to be essential in terms of the wind energy transformation that will occur in this country but will require certainty around capital investment in the grid over the medium term. Those three areas, housing, water and the grid, are essential pillars in terms of the future development of the Irish economy and Irish society. The Apple funding as well will be allocated principally to those areas, although no final decisions have been taken. Political parties no doubt will establish their priorities in respect of that. This Government is quite entitled to outline its priorities in respect of the capital and I have given three key areas there. We also have surpluses. The issue actually is not an absence of capital, the issue is how we develop a sustainable programme of capital investment over a decade, and how we can shelter that from any winds or storms that might come our way in the intervening period. That is the objective.

Deputy Ged Nash

I thank the Tánaiste. I disagree with him. The problem is a lack of ambition and a lack of vision. That has been the consistent pattern here from what I describe as a very conservative coalition. Ireland is a rich country, but the Government presides over on that continues to feel poor.

I want to put one key question to the Tánaiste on the status of the residential zoned land tax. The ESRI did not put a tooth in it today in pointing out that land comprises about 20% of the final cost of a home. We know that the Government cannot control material costs, labour costs and other costs that go into developing homes, but it has the responsibility to use the tax system responsibly in order to disincentivise land hoarding. It can make a real difference overnight. Will it introduce the residential zoned land tax next week? Will that be confirmed in the budget? I would appreciate an update from the Tánaiste on that. That is critically important. Is the Government going to continue to put the primacy of land ownership before the public good?

The Tánaiste

It was this Government that introduced the RZLT legislation.

Deputy Ged Nash

It has not introduced an actual tax.

The Tánaiste

Unless I have mistaken the Labour position, I think all parties in the House were of the view that productive farmers, people who were actively working their land, should not be captured by the RZLT. I do not know if that is Labour's position.

Deputy Ged Nash

They can have the land rezoned.

The Tánaiste

It certainly is the position of the three party leaders. The mechanisms devised to enable farmers not to be covered have not worked; that is the reality. Therefore, discussions are under way. They are being led by the Minister for Finance. The three party leaders have been apprised of that proposal, the objective of which is to exclude active farmers, people who did not seek rezoning or have no intention of rezoning and who want to continue with a bona fide economic activity. That is a legitimate point. There are other issues as well. The view is to have that issue resolved before the budget and bring the legislation in.

Deputy Ged Nash

Will it be resolved?

The Tánaiste

Yes.

Deputy Seán Canney

I want to follow on with the subject of housing and, in particular, the issue of affordable housing for first-time buyers in this country. A number of things could help with the delivery of affordable houses. The Tánaiste spoke about wastewater treatment plants. In many villages and towns in my constituency and throughout the country, people cannot build houses because there are not wastewater treatment plants. When I became a councillor in 2004, it was on the back of a plan to build a wastewater treatment plant in Corofin, a place the Tánaiste will know well from football. Now, in 2024, that is not on anybody's agenda. In 2007, An Bord Pleanála stated that we could not build any houses in Corofin because it would be premature to do so in the absence of a municipal treatment plan. That type of thing is replicated all over the country.

The affordable housing scheme that is place is not working in many of our towns. In Tuam, the largest county town in Galway, we cannot get an affordable scheme to work as a result of the matrix that is in place. the contribution towards development density and all that type of thing. In Galway, the second biggest county in Ireland, there is only one affordable scheme. That scheme is due to be launched later today. We are falling far behind the curve.

The other thing that is giving rise to costs and making housing unviable is in our zoning and planning policies - not our Planning Acts - is that we have what is called core planning. Basically, this stipulates that we cannot zone as much land as we would like. We are confined to zoning a certain amount of land under what is referred to as R1 zoning. When that land is used up, we go to R2 land. As the Tánaiste said, however, some of the land that has been zoned is owned by farmers who are working it. This land will never be available. There are other lands that cannot be made available for legal reasons, tax reasons or whatever. We are zoning land and preparing local area plans without looking to see if the land is available at all. That is creating a scarce commodity, namely land that is zoned. This, in turn, is adding to the cost of building houses. These are not things that would cost money. They are things that can be done with a change in policy. I ask the Tánaiste to consider all of this for the future of our country.

The Tánaiste

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. I accept the basic point he has put forward. There is an issue with water treatment in many towns and villages across the country. The population is increasing, which a positive in terms of the progression of Ireland. From a demographic point of view, we are finally turning around the decline that occurred from the Famine era onwards in the context of, perhaps, the country reaching its potential. However, that means more infrastructure, more housing and more wastewater treatment plants. In the context, as I said earlier, of the allocation of revenue coming from the sale of AIB shares and the potential provision of some of the Apple funding, housing and water are key targets for further investment. We can future-proof such investment over the coming years. That would be my thinking on that.

The Deputy outlined the situation in Corofin. I always thought it had the best of water-----

Deputy Seán Canney

Wastewater.

The Tánaiste

-----given the prowess of its club, which I know only too well. However, it is a problem. We need to engage again with Irish Water in respect of the allocation of funding for the future with a view to saying that it is not just the bigger cities we want prioritised and that we want towns and villages looked after in the context of wastewater treatment plants. There is a consequential benefit for water quality and a range of other issues.

The zoning of land is important. Some lands are zoned but they simply cannot be developed because of the absence of any enabling infrastructure, such as that relating to wastewater or roads, or because some of the lands in question are not serviced. I believe that, potentially, more zoning should happen to facilitate increased housing targets. The targets we currently have are not ceilings. We exceeded last year's target and we will exceed this year's target in terms of house completions. Supply is the key issue affecting house prices. We need more houses available for people at affordable prices. We accept that we have to do it at a higher scale. Under this Government, we have moved from 20,000 houses built in 2020 to nearly 40,000 being built by the end of this year. That is nearly a doubling of housing output, notwithstanding the interruption of one and a half to two years caused by Covid. However, we need to get from 40,000 houses per annum to 60,000. We can only do that with enabling infrastructure and water is a key element of that. I take on board what the Deputy said.

Deputy Seán Canney

While I mentioned Corofin, some 30 towns and villages in County Galway are earmarked for wastewater development. At the same time, we are creating restrictions in respect of rural housing. We are telling people they cannot live in the rural areas and telling them to move into the towns and villages. Houses cannot be built there and the urgency is not there. Craughwell in County Galway was allocated funding for a wastewater treatment plant last year. It will probably be another five to six years before this is delivered. That is the reality. The processes we are using are completely out of sync with the housing emergency. We need to see this for what it is. It is an economic-social problem whereby we cannot build houses where they are needed.

Construction has not yet commenced on 50,000 units for which planning permission was obtained last year. Something is going wrong. The private housing market is completely dysfunctional. We need to reduce costs.

We can do this without costing money by looking outside the box and getting more land zoned. Let us tweak the affordable housing scheme. It is a fine scheme and it could work in a lot more areas.

The Tánaiste

The affordable housing schemes are making progress. A total of 21 local authorities are now actively planning, developing and delivering sustainable affordable purchase schemes with the support of the affordable housing fund. Across the board, a concept that really has only begun in the last number of years has gained traction and momentum and will continue to do so. Do not forget that 50,000 new homes have commenced in the past 12 months. This is the highest number in a long time. We had close to 33,000 housing completions last year. We have to keep driving on. There is a specific issue with towns and villages throughout the country, in addition to the major work that Irish Water is doing. There has to be engagement with Irish Water and local authorities to make sure a portion of the significantly more capital that will be allocated is provided for the towns and villages throughout the country.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

Yesterday I attended a presentation in the audiovisual room from the Scoliosis Advocacy Network and a spina bifida advocacy group. It was one of the most packed audiovisual room presentations in the five years I have been here. When their stories were told, there was not one dry eye in the room. There were parents with their children in wheelchairs. There were people there on crutches whose spines are twisted. They were given a commitment by the Taoiseach two years ago when he was the Minister for Health. He told them he would meet them. He told them that €9.1 million would be made available for them. That €9.1 million has gone into the overspending somewhere in the HSE and has never been seen since.

Some of these children have to leave the country to get operations to give them a quality of life. One person there yesterday is inoperable and cannot leave the country for any operation. One of them asked me what the definition of madness is and then said it is when the same thing is done over and over again when expecting a different result. This seems to come into play when the Government goes to the country and people vote for the same people all the time. They are told the same things all the time but make no change.

Where is the accountability in the Cabinet when somebody promises someone €9.1 million for quality of life and does not deliver? Where is the accountability from the Taoiseach? There are emails to prove he has been asked for the past 18 months to meet them and he has refused. He tells them various committees will meet them but he has not met them himself. They have the emails to prove this is happening while children are suffering. They want procedures to be put in place to provide for a quality of life. Why does the Cabinet stand by and allow this to happen when it spent €336,000 on a bike shed, €1.4 million on a security shed and €1.2 million on a cabin out the front for RTÉ to put its bits and pieces into? It cannot give €9.1 million to provide a quality of life to children who are suffering.

The Tánaiste

I thank Deputy O'Donoghue for raising this issue, which is causing immense anxiety, stress and trauma-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

And pain.

The Tánaiste

-----for many families, particularly to the children who require surgery and treatment in a timely manner. This is being prioritised in the Government. It has been prioritised. Funding is not an issue from the Government's perspective. Additional staff have been recruited. As Deputy O'Donoghue knows, there have been issues in respect of some aspects of it over the past two years. There has been a significant increase in the number of paediatric spinal procedures carried out in 2022 and 2023. I will not go through all the figures because as far as I am concerned it is not enough until every child is enabled to have an operation when it is prescribed by the clinicians that this is the time the child needs the operation. That is when the child should get the operation.

This is why I have been a strong supporter of outsourcing if capacity does not exist in the national system. It has been increased, and this has to be said. It has been increased and funding has been provided and more operations and procedures are being done but, in my view, the waiting times are still too long for children. Where possible, we should facilitate children getting their surgery done in a timely manner. The HSE is engaging with Children's Health Ireland which is responsible for this, along with the National Orthopaedic Hospital Cappagh, the Blackrock Clinic and the National Treatment Purchase Fund, to co-ordinate national outsourcing opportunities for spinal and non-spinal orthopaedic work, to ensure maximum capacity for complex spinal surgeries in CHI.

An arrangement with Morgan Stanley children's hospital in New York has been finalised. Consultants from New York have travelled to Ireland to see patients at a clinic in Dublin. Following a clinic held in Dublin with surgeons from Great Ormond Street Hospital in London, a cohort of patients has been offered treatment abroad and this is in progress. An arrangement has also been finalised with Portland Hospital in the United Kingdom. Families will be supported in accessing these pathways if it is the right option for their children. This will include travel, flights, accommodation, transport and a subsistence rate for expenses.

Ideally we would want all children to be done in this country, but timely intervention is key for the child. This is my personal view. When I was Minister with responsibility for health in 2002 and 2003 we sent 100 children to Johns Hopkins Hospital in the United States because we were building new theatres in Crumlin. Our consultants here led that. It worked effectively at the time. In my view what should guide this are the needs of the child and timely interventions. I have discussed this with the Minister for Health. As we increase national capacity and eliminate the waiting times, when we can get good arrangements in Great Ormond Street Hospital and elsewhere, we should pursue them.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

I thank the Tánaiste. He mentioned CHI, the HSE and advocates. These are the same people who have been heading this since 2015 except with a new name. Nothing has changed. The same people from that system have a new name with new positions but they are the same people. The one thing the Tánaiste left out in his contribution when he mentioned anxiety for people was the main issue, which is the pain that children are going through unnecessarily. Some of these children cannot leave the country for these operations. They have to be looked at on a 12-monthly basis because of their growth as they get older. If the operations are not done within a timely period, it will create needless pain for these children.

If the issue is not funding or clinical, why is this not happening? Why were these people here again yesterday, after waiting for two years for the Taoiseach to get back to them while their children are in pain? This is the bottom line. We can say what we like but they would not be here if what the Tánaiste is saying was being done. They are at their wits' end watching their children and loved ones in pain every day. Not only are the children in pain, but their families and the people around them see them in pain. This is where the problem lies.

The Tánaiste

It is about capacity. In 2019 approximately 380 procedures were done. Last year approximately 464 were done. A higher number were done in 2022 with 509 spinal procedures.

The hiring of more healthcare professionals has happened in Crumlin and Temple Street children's hospitals and at Cappagh. A fifth theatre in Temple Street was opened in October of last year. An additional magnetic MRI scanner was installed in October 2023. Some 24 beds were provided, which are now all operational. There has been further activity in paediatric theatre lists at Cappagh. More cases have come on and more children have come on the list and so on. As far as I am concerned, we have to do whatever it takes to get the operations done in a timely manner.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

How many of those children were operated on twice-----

The Tánaiste

What I would say to the Deputy as well-----

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

-----from the rods breaking in their backs?

The Tánaiste

What I would say as well is that-----

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

Double figures were given.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy.

The Tánaiste

-----children can be treated overseas. It is not ideal, I understand that, but there has been a long-standing relationship between our children's hospitals and hospitals like Great Ormond Street Hospital and hospitals in the United States. That they have collaboration is nothing new-----

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

The figures the Tánaiste has given are inaccurate.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, please.

The Tánaiste

In a whole range of things-----

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

The figures the Tánaiste has given are inaccurate because some of those operations have been done twice. The rods broke in those children's backs. They were operated on twice within two years, and they are also in those stats.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy let the Tánaiste answer?

The Tánaiste

As far as I am concerned, I want every child looked after, but we have to do it in the most effective way we can. The most effective way we can do it now is a combination of building up national capacity and also-----

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

The Taoiseach needs to meet them.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Tánaiste. The time is up. We are way over time.

The Tánaiste

-----to have those children who have been waiting too long looked after in the number of hospitals that are identified in their area.

An Ceann Comhairle

That concludes Leaders' Questions. As I said, we are way over time.