Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 26 Sep 2024

Vol. 1058 No. 5

Finance (Provision of Access to Cash Infrastructure) Bill 2024: Second Stage

Minister for Finance (Deputy Jack Chambers)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The Department of Finance's retail banking review, published in November 2022, concluded that despite a decline in its usage, cash remains an important element of the payments system and the broader economy and that it is essential that cash remains readily available to customers through ATMs and other means across the country. The review recommended that the Department of Finance develop access-to-cash legislation with the initial objective of developing criteria to secure access to cash at about the levels of December 2022. The review also called on Department officials to require ATM operators and cash-in-transit, CIT, providers to be authorised and supervised by the Central Bank. The Finance (Provision of Access to Cash Infrastructure) Bill, published with Government approval on 31 July, addresses these recommendations. It will establish a framework to provide that any future evolution of the cash infrastructure will be managed in a fair, orderly, transparent and equitable manner and provide for the supervision of both ATM deployers and CIT providers.

Also arising from a separate recommendation in the retail banking review, the Bill will require the Central Bank to carry out and publish cost-benefit analyses of business standards it proposes to prescribe, as well as for regulations it proposes to make in relation to financial service providers. Any cost-benefit analysis carried out will have to consider the impact of any standards or regulations on consumers and their impact on fair competition.

Payments in Ireland and across the world are trending towards electronic options. In the years immediately prior to the pandemic, just under €20 billion was withdrawn annually from ATMs in the State. While this declined to €13.5 billion in 2022, cash is still important to our society and economy. It is important to consumers in all walks of life because it is a private, secure and instant form of payment. It is a budgeting tool for many people and allows individuals to maintain their financial independence. Cash is also important for the day-to-day revenue and expenses of many SMEs.

For many of us, making electronic payments by means of cards, phones and other novel devices may be the norm, but cash remains the preferred form of payment for many people. Recent research by the Financial Conduct Authority in the UK found that digital exclusion and income levels have the largest effect on how likely someone is to rely on cash, and a review by the Citizens Information Service this year found that many older people feel a push to online banking despite their preference for in-person services. This is why it is imperative to ensure that cash remains widely available and accessible. It will protect the economy when technology is not a viable option and ensure that those who rely on cash can continue to do so into the future. The Bill will support those who rely on cash and establish a framework to ensure that sufficient and effective access to cash is maintained into the future.

I will now set out the main provisions of the Bill. Sections 1 to 5, inclusive, give the Title to the Bill, set out when it will come into effect, define the terms used throughout, contain provisions in relation to expenses and include a standard section on ministerial regulations and orders.

Section 6 provides that the Minister for Finance shall prescribe the criteria for sufficient and effective access to cash. This will be achieved by prescribing the percentage of the population for each of the eight nomenclature of territorial units for statistics, NUTS, 3 regions in Ireland that must have access to an ATM and a cash service point within a specified distance of not less than 5 km and no more than 10 km. A cash service point is a location where cash can be deposited and withdrawn and where in-person assistance is available. Bank branches and post offices satisfy this definition. To ensure that there is sufficient ATM capacity, a minimum number of ATMs per 100,000 people will also be prescribed. The regions used will be the NUTS 3 regions relied on by the European statistical agency, Eurostat. In the first instance, the access-to-cash criteria will be based on December 2022 levels, taking account of the exits of KBC and Ulster Bank from the Irish retail banking market. Separately, this section also provides the Minister for Finance with the ability to prescribe a minimum number of ATMs per 100,000 people in each of the regions that are to be available outside of ATM operator hours, if required.

To ensure that access-to-cash infrastructure remains sufficient and effective in the future, when factors like the demand for cash and population change, this section also includes a provision for the review of the access-to-cash criteria under different conditions. Reviews must be completed within nine months of publication of final census data on population if cash demand decreases by more than 15% in one calendar year compared to the preceding calendar year, or at the request of the Minister for Finance. The Central Bank may also undertake a review on its own initiative. Having assessed such a review, the Minister for Finance may amend the criteria for some or all of the NUTS 3 regions.

Section 7 provides the Minister for Finance with the ability to request the collection and publication of data in relation to cash infrastructure, such as the number and value of cash withdrawals by the Central Bank. This section also allows the Minister to specify the form and manner in which this information shall be published and whether publication will be on a once-off basis or at repeated intervals.

Section 8 defines and sets out the process for identifying local deficiencies. These could occur where, even if the regional access-to-cash criteria in section 6 are being met, localised difficulties with access-to-cash infrastructure arise. A person can notify the Central Bank of a potential local deficiency and it may then assess the notification. Where the Central Bank determines that there is a local deficiency, the Central Bank shall notify the designated entities, a term I will explain shortly.

Section 9 provides for the preparation and publication of guidelines on local deficiencies to assist with that process. The Central Bank is required to publish the guidelines within 12 months of enactment of the Bill. In preparing these guidelines, the Central Bank shall consult with a number of stakeholders, including the Minister for Finance, designated entities and representatives of consumers, persons with disabilities, elderly persons, SMEs and others as it considers appropriate.

Section 10 provides for the monitoring and enforcement of compliance with the access-to-cash criteria in section 6 and the addressing of local deficiencies defined in section 8. The Central Bank will monitor and publish information in relation to cash infrastructure, that is, the ATMs and cash service points. Where this reveals a breach of the access-to-cash criteria or if the Central Bank has determined under section 8 that there is a local deficiency that warrants a remedy, the Central Bank will notify the designated entities, which will have an opportunity to propose how to address the issue. Where no proposals are made or if the plans proposed by designated entities are not considered sufficient, the Central Bank may then issue a draft direction to one or more of the entities.

Section 11 deals with the designated entities that I have mentioned. The section provides that credit institutions that exceed percentage shares of current accounts and household deposits prescribed by the Minister for two consecutive quarters shall be designated entities. These thresholds may be set between 5% and 15%. The Minister may, following consultation with the Central Bank and other specified stakeholders, amend these thresholds, where appropriate.

Section 12 deals with access fees, which are fees charged by an ATM operator for the use of a specific ATM and they are not normal bank fees or charges related to someone’s account. The section provides that the Minister for Finance may make regulations that prohibit or cap the charging of fees for cash withdrawals from ATMs where the ATM operator is not the provider of the account from which the withdrawal is being made. Such regulations may only be made subsequent to consultation with the Central Bank and where the Minister is satisfied that financial inclusion is being impaired due to the imposition of access fees. While access fees are not charged in Ireland for domestic withdrawals at present, this section has been included in case they are subsequently introduced.

Section 13 provides a legislative basis for the Central Bank to collect information in relation to cash infrastructure from designated entities, ATM operators, CIT providers and any other entity that operates a cash service point on behalf of a designated entity.

Sections 14 to 16, inclusive, define specific terms used in this part of the Bill, such as “application” and “registration”, provide for registers of ATM deployers and CIT providers, and require ATM deployers and CIT providers to register with the Central Bank.

Sections 17 to 19, inclusive, provide for transitional arrangements to allow existing ATM deployers and CIT providers to continue to operate while in the process of registering with the Central Bank; outline the registration process and the reasons for refusing an application for registration; and the processes for appealing a refusal.

Sections 20 to 22, inclusive, provide that the Central Bank can impose conditions on CIT providers when granting an application for registration, make failing to comply with the conditions of registration an offence and set out the terms of registration.

Sections 23 and 24 provide for amendments to the conditions of registration; the steps the Central Bank must take when doing so; and require any organisation registered with the Central Bank to include a regulatory disclosure statement in all advertisements.

Sections 25 and 26 set out the conditions under which the holder of a registration can apply to the Central Bank for a revocation of its registration, the conditions under which the Central Bank can revoke a registration and the associated procedures.

Sections 27 to 29, inclusive, require the Central Bank to publish a notice of revocation in Iris Oifigiúil, allow the Central Bank to give a direction prohibiting the holder of a registration from continuing to operate and allow the Central Bank and the Private Security Authority to enter into an agreement that facilitates data sharing between the two bodies in order to ensure the functioning of this legislation.

Sections 30 and 31 define key terms applicable to Part, including “prescribed requirement” and “relevant records”.

Section 32 provides that the Central Bank, following consultation with the Minister, shall make regulations that apply to ATM operators only. These regulations will be in relation to: notification to the Central Bank, by ATM operators, of proposed changes to its business that will materially alter the scope of service provision; immediate notification of the Central Bank by ATM operators of closures of an ATM in circumstances beyond its control; and requirements for ATM operators to ensure appropriate service standards. These service standards will include hours of availability, maximum withdrawal limits, the stocking of ATMs with different denominations, maximum periods of unavailability, signage requirements, information to be communicated by ATM operators to users and information to be published by ATM operators, including planned changes to services.

Sections 33 to 36, inclusive, provide that any ATM operator that fails to comply with any prescribed requirement commits an offence; require ATM deployers and CIT providers to retain records specified by the Central Bank and to notify it of any change of address; allow the Central Bank to issue a written direction to an ATM deployer or CIT provider that has failed to comply with this legislation; and allow the Central Bank to apply to the High Court for an order to enforce any directions it has issued.

Sections 37 and 38 allow the Central Bank to appoint a person to act as an authorised officer for the purposes of monitoring compliance with Parts 3 and 4 by ATM operators and CIT providers; describe the powers of an authorised officer; and provide that a person that impedes or obstructs an authorised officer in the exercise of their duties is guilty of an offence.

Sections 39 and 40 provide for the Central Bank to bring summary proceedings for offences committed under the Bill, list the associated fines and proceedings and hold that where an offence has been committed by a body corporate, a director, manager, secretary, or other officer of the body corporate, that person, as well as the body corporate, shall be guilty of an offence.

Sections 41 to 43, inclusive, allow the Central Bank to make regulations prescribing levies and fees to be paid by ATM deployers and CIT providers. They also provide that where the total amount of fees and levies is greater than the Central Bank’s expenditure on its functions under this Bill, the Central Bank shall reduce the fees and levies accordingly in the following year. Conversely, should the reverse occur, the fees and levies shall be increased.

Sections 44 to 48, inclusive, provide for consequential amendments to the Central Bank Act 1942 that are necessary for the proper functioning of the Bill. These are: amending section 32C(b) of the Act, to allow for the inclusion of the costs of regulation of the access to cash sector in the Central Bank’s levy calculations; amending section 32(1), to allow for the inclusion of the Central Bank’s performance of its functions under this legislation in the Central Bank’s annual performance statement; amending section 33AK, required to facilitate information-sharing between the Central Bank and the Private Security Authority under section 29 of this Bill; amending section 57A(1), allowing decisions under this legislation to be treated as appealable decisions for the purposes of the application to these decisions of the provisions relating to appeals to the Irish Financial Services Appeals Tribunal; an insertion into Part I, Schedule 2 of the Act to make this Bill a designated enactment, allowing for the application of the Central Bank’s sanction powers in relation to Parts 1 and 2 of the Bill.

Section 49 provides for an amendment to Schedule 5 of the Companies Act 2014 to include CIT providers and allow for an examinership process if appropriate.

Sections 50 and 51 require the Central Bank to carry out a cost-benefit analysis of the business standards it proposes to prescribe in relation to financial service providers and to carry out a cost-benefit analysis of regulations it proposes to make in relation to these providers. The issues to be considered in these assessments will include the potential impacts on consumers and fair competition.

The general scheme of the Bill was considered by the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach. I am grateful to the committee for the time and effort put into the preparation of its report, which was supportive of the measures included in the Bill. The committee made a number of recommendations that were carefully considered during the drafting of the Bill. I will write to the committee in relation to how, in the context of the provisions in the Bill, we have responded to those recommendations. I look forward to further constructive engagement with its members and with other Members of the Houses as the passage of the Bill progresses.

This legislation comes at an inflection point in the use of cash and alternative payment options. It will put in place a framework which ensures that access to cash is sufficient and effective, while responding to evolving demand in the future. I commend the Bill to the House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Go raibh maith agat. Anois, Sinn Féin. There are three speakers in this slot.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Deputy Doherty is not here just yet.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I will leave the Deputies share time whatever way they wish.

Deputy Martin Kenny

We will share the time as we go along. I appreciate that.

I thank the Minister for his opening statement. Access to cash and the right of people to use cash is vital. That is the nub of this. People have a right to use cash as well as to access it. Since Covid and even before that, people have spoken of restrictions on the use of cash. People used cards more and more during that time for obvious reasons. There was a story going around that the Government and the authorities were trying to move people away from using cash, that an element of greater control was being placed on the public and that this was the mechanism by means of which this was happening. It is welcome that we have this legislation to deal with access to cash and to have cash infrastructure in place across the length and breadth of the State.

We have had major problems in many areas, particularly rural areas, where ATMs and banks have closed down. We see the withdrawal of many banking services. That has greatly annoyed and frustrated the public and has fed into people's belief that the Government is somehow or other trying to withdraw access to cash from them and not allow them to use it in the same manner that they did in the past.

The measures set out by the Minister clearly indicate that there will be a responsibility on the banks and financial institutions to ensure people have access to cash and a right to cash. Another side of this we need to think of is the issue of where they use cash, whether in shops, restaurants or wherever. It is legal tender and people should have the opportunity to use it. Many people, particularly older individuals, still want their cash in their wallets and want to be able to use it. They feel they know what money they have when they have that.

We also need to consider that in recent times, because so many of our financial transactions happen online, there is the danger of fraud and people being hoodwinked and having money taken out of their accounts. We all get texts, emails or whatever from sometimes legitimate and sometimes illegitimate sources seeking passwords, etc. People are sometimes fraudulently done out of their money. If they have cash, that does not happen as easily.

We also have to recognise that cash has its dangers. We would not want to encourage people to hoard cash or have a lot of it on their premises, for example, under the mattress, as happened in the past. That is a difficulty but the right to have access to and use cash is vital. This legislation moves in that direction. I am sure the committee has compiled a report on it and put forward proposals. We hope that more of those proposals will be taken on board as the legislation moves through the Houses.

People have the right to be free to use mode of transaction they feel is appropriate for them and their lifestyle. The Government has a responsibility to ensure that every effort is made in order to allow them to do that. This legislation moves us in that direction. It may not go far enough. Deputy Doherty was involved in the committee and would be more au fait with the various issues in that regard. I will now pass over to him.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Unfortunately, the Deputy will not be passing over to Deputy Doherty. Not for the first time this week, the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, is facing me. I will possibly be asking her to bring certain issues directly to the attention of the Minister.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

On this topic.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Definitely on this topic. I would not dream of going off on a tangent in any way, shape or form. That would be unheard of.

Deputy Ged Nash

We want a happy Minister of State.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

While I have the Minister of State here, it would be wrong not to raise a particular issue. In fairness, it is an incredibly important one. We have all heard about the major concerns. Even in recent weeks, people have raised those concerns with us. One lady contacted me about her dad. There was some element of confusion at a senior football match in the Dundalk area. As he was not au fait with phone apps or whatever, he was not able to purchase tickets. There was some confusion. In fairness, the Louth county board stated that it will do absolutely anything to ensure that this does not happen again in respect of people who are only able to use cash, particularly those who have given long service to the GAA. The board has allocated tickets in respect of people who fall into this bracket that the clubs can hand out. It is vital that this sort of thing happens.

We need to ensure that there is a sufficient supply of cash. Even in places where there is a sufficient number of ATMs, there have been times when, for example, over busy bank holiday weekends, when these have not necessarily been filled. People who cannot get access to a shop with an ATM during the day sometimes have to travel huge distances in order to get cash. Access to cash is something that we need to facilitate. While it may suit many people to be able to pay by tapping or making purchases online, that does not suit a significant number of other individuals. Access to cash is an absolute right. Therefore, it is an absolute necessity that the legislation make provision to ensure that sufficient cash is available for people to access.

In the context of the provision and maintenance of ATMs, it would be fair to say that we should be able to offer Irish language options of equal quality to the English versions and that every self-service machine should be able to accept words with fadas and allow Irish names to be properly recorded. Even if it is not a default option on ATMs, it should be very simple to access the Irish language option at the home page. This could be quite easily done, and it should be done. It probably should have been done a long time ago, but it could be done now. It would absolutely suit us to do it in this State. This issue has not been dealt with before.

We must ensure that we make allowances for particular businesses and community operations that will need to make cash transactions from time to time. We need an analysis of the entire market and, beyond that, our society from the point of view of being able to deliver this.

I was hoping that the Minister would be here. Deputy Nash and I raised this issue yesterday. I have spoken with the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, about it. Connect Credit Union is concerned about a particular issue. I raise it because we are talking about making sure these services are available across the board. The closure of the Kilsaran and Clogherhead branches of the Connect Credit Union gave rise to major unease. The level of interaction and consultation on the matter has been insufficient. Two rival special general meetings took place in recent days. I attended one of them in O'Connell's GFC. Well over 200 people were present. That just shows the depth of feeling in the area. Contact has been made with the Central Bank. While I accept that there are procedures for dealing with matters of this nature, I am of the view that there needs to be an element of "eyes on" in respect of it.

We need to ensure that people are offered access to ATM services and cash. We also need to ensure that we post office services are available. We need to do our part, not only to provide credit unions with the power to offer mortgages, etc., but also to ensure that they remain connected to the communities in which they are located. Déanfaidh sin cúis.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Aontaím leis an méid atá ráite ag an Teachta Ó Murchú ó thaobh na ATMs seo agus an chaoi nach bhfuil seirbhís trí Ghaeilge á cur ar fáil. Ba chóir go mbeidh gá seirbhís trí Ghaeilge a chur ar fáil. Tá a fhios againn gur féidir é seo a dhéanamh. Rinneadh é roimhe seo. Tá a fhios againn, nuair a théimid go dtí ATM, go bhfuilimid ábalta seirbhís a fháil i go leor teangacha difriúla, ach níl teanga dhúchais ár dtíre ar fáil iontu. Tá an fhadhb seo i gceantair Ghaeltachta fosta. Ba chóir go dtarlóidh sé. Feictear é sin ar fud na cruinne. Nuair théitear thar lear, is féidir an tseirbhís a fháil i go leor teangacha. Ba chóir go mbeidh seo sa reachtaíocht sa dóigh is go mbeidh dualgas ár dteanga dhúchais ar fáil sna ATMs fosta.

Ó thaobh an Bhille seo, aontaím lena chúlra, an gá atá leis agus an méid atá sé ag iarraidh a bhaint amach. Is é sin go mbeidh an pobal ábalta airgead tirim a fháil ina phobal féin. Is é rud nach bhfuil a fhios againn faoin reachtaíocht seo ná na coinníollacha a leagfaí síos. Beidh sé fágtha ag an Aire le cinntiú cén codán den daonra ar cóir go mbeidh in ann airgead tirim a fháil as ATM taobh istigh de chúig chiliméadar, ach níl na figiúirí sin sa reachtaíocht seo. Tuigim an fáth nach bhfuil siad sa reachtaíocht. B'fhéidir go n-athróidh na figiúirí amach anseo. Rud nach bhfuil soiléir ach oiread ná cén cineál seirbhíse a bhfaighfí an t-airgead tirim as. I go leor áiteanna, faightear an t-airgead tirim ón ngréasán istigh sa bhalla. B'fhéidir gur banc a bhí ann nó banc a druideadh. I go leor áiteanna eile, faightear an t-airgead tirim ón ngréasán i siopa nó áit inteacht eile agus níl an tseirbhís sin ar fáil ach amháin taobh istigh de amanna faoi leith.

I welcome both the publication of the legislation and the opportunity to contribute to this debate. We will go through the Bill in detail when it comes before the select committee, as we did with the general scheme during pre-legislative scrutiny. At that stage, I raised a number of issues to do with access to cash. I signalled quite a while ago that we were preparing legislation in respect of access to cash. I am glad that a number of months after this the Government committed to bringing forward its own legislation. This is really welcome. In the North and in Britain, legislation on access to cash has already been passed.

Access to cash is really important and as we look at the deficiencies of this Bill I will deal with some of the issues of concern. One thing that is not included in the Bill is the right to use the cash when there is access to it. A number of entities have moved into the cashless environment. Deputy Ó Murchú talked about challenges in the context of senior Gaelic football games. We also saw the attempts on the part of the company responsible for administering the national car test to move to cashless operations. The move in that regard was subsequently reversed. There are many businesses, including a number within a short walk of here, that do not accept cash.

It is a serious issue that while there is a legislative right to access the cash, there is no right to be able to use it in the context of retailers accepting it as legal tender. I am glad that an increasing number of business entities in my community have signs up saying that it is important to use cash. The reasons for that relate, among other things, to the fees people are charged for tap-and-go transactions. Being able to tap and go is very convenient. I am sure all of us in this House use the facility, but there are hidden charges relating to it. There is a gap in the legislation in this regard. It is not just retailers that have moved to cashless operations. We have seen banks, including those that were majority-owned by the State, move or attempt to move to a cashless scenario. If someone had spoken about cashless banks in the House ten years ago, they would have been laughed at, but that is where things have gone. The Tánaiste, Deputy Micheál Martin, as spoken about the inevitability of a cashless society. I completely disagree with him. We now have this legislation, and I welcome that there is a trend in the context of more people availing of online facilities, tap-and-go transactions and, indeed, banking with entities that do not have facilities where cash can be accessed, whether it is Revolut or other companies of that nature. Part of that trend is down to convenience, but we have to recognise that for 20% of the population, cash is king and their preferred method of transacting business.

We also have to recognise that while some people may talk about the importance of cash for elderly people, this is probably a misrepresentation of those in that category because all the statistics show that the defining factors when it comes to dependency on cash are poverty, low incomes and people trying to manage their budgets. It is important that people not only have access to cash but also that they can use it in the retail outlets of their choice.

The legislation will allow the Minister to define the percentage of the population that will have access to cash within a 5 km radius. During pre-legislative scrutiny, I raised the issue that many of the ATMs in our communities are located in banks, on the premises of banks that have closed down or on the walls of other premises. Many of them are in retail outlets and stores that have particular opening times. When we look at access to cash, particularly in the context of the night-time economy, it is important that we are not just talking about access to cash during day-time hours. For example, if we have a community that has access to cash but at ATMs in two of the local supermarkets - in my community we are blessed to have that - it is important that people have access to cash after 8 p.m. Therefore, that needs to be part of the consideration. It is not just a case of having an ATM; people mus have access to that ATM all the way through. As I said, that is particularly important for the night-time economy. It is also important in the context of allowing people to go about their busy lives by having access cash. This is something that we need to deal with in the legislation.

Surveys have shown that 37% of people visit their bank branch on a monthly basis. Obviously, this has become more difficult as an increasing number of branches have closed down. I understand that the aim is to designate number of ATMs that currently exist as the number that will be contemplated by the legislation. I am seeking clarity from the Government on this. I also ask for clarity as to whether this legislation will allow banks to close down ATMs. I do not think that is a good thing. If there are two ATMs within 4 km of each other then, under this legislation, there is potential to close down one of them. I ask the Minister of State to elaborate on that matter when replying.

Has the Department given consideration to the right to use cash? Now that we are providing a right to access cash with a certain number of kilometres, are we going to legislate for the right for people to use cash in retail outlets?

There is a lot of detail to go through on Committee Stage. It is important that we have very clear rules on how much of the population can access cash within a distance of 5 km, which is what the legislation allows for. There is a problem in this regard. Let us consider the example of people in my constituency in rural west Donegal. Let us say that the figure is set at 97%, which is the current figure. If a person is one of the 3% who does not have access to an ATM within a distance of 5 km and has to travel 15 km to access an ATM, what will happen if the latter has been closed down because of the rules set out in the legislation? That is not a good scenario. My point is that we should legislate to protect what is already in place, to have very clear rules in respect of access to cash that will be reviewed, to clearly define what are 24-hour ATMs as opposed to ATMs that are only accessible to the public within defined periods and to look at strengthening the rights of consumers to use cash when they have it in their pockets.

On access to cash, anybody who works in the community sector with groups, is involved with the Scouts, organises bake sales or whatever, knows how difficult it can be to go to a bank with a load of coins. To be able to withdraw cash is one thing but being able to bring coins to a bank is a serious issue. Consideration should be given to this.

If we do not get a handle on fraud, more people will suffer. I made the point that the Government does not have a fraud strategy. Such a strategy has been requested for five years as a priority, but we still do not have one. The Government has not empowered the Garda and the banks to share real-time data for a fraud database. If fraud continues on its current trajectory, more people will use cash, because having money in a bank, in an online system, is not safe anymore. We know that is the case for many people because of fraudulent activity, whether it is account takeovers or the scams that are being carried out. The Government must give greater priority to dealing with the issue of fraud.

Deputy Ged Nash

The Labour Party welcomes the Bill. Much of what it contains aligns with the comprehensive submission we made in reference to access to cash in the context of the banking review a couple of years ago. We are happy to support the Bill and its principles. There are elements that we are concerned about and that we will tease these out on Committee Stage, but the premise of the Bill is sound.

It is important that we get some legislative protections in place in order that people can continue to have access to cash and be confident that they will have this access in perpetuity. Cash is king, as the saying goes, for many people, but there is no doubt that the whole landscape relating to money - how we spend it, how we make transactions and who financial services in general operate - has changed dramatically in recent years. This is due to the wave of digitalisation that has taken place in this country and elsewhere. On the whole, the latter is not necessarily a bad thing. Digitalisation and new technologies should be embraced. For many of us, they makes things more convenient by saving us time. They make information more accessible and make it easier for many of us to communicate. As we know, people are increasingly doing their shopping or accessing their entertainment online. All of this has implications for how society is organised and how culture is accessed, with implications for our village, town and city centres.

There has been a considerable amount of change over a very short period in recent years. There is little doubt that the majority of people have embraced digitalisation and electronic banking for payments and spending. The data on this is plain to see. The decline in the use of cash, even since the advent of Covid, has been noticeably marked, but we can go back further and see the same trend playing out over the years. Data from the Central Bank shows that the value of monthly card transactions has almost doubled since 2015. ATM withdrawals have gone from being around half to being approximately one seventh of card transactions. Perhaps the most telling evidence that the digital revolution in our spending habits is well under way is the explosion of e-commerce, which has grown by in the region of 300% over the same period.

Quite clearly, card services and other digital or online payment services are the preferred method of most people now. There is a real risk that we are putting the cart before the horse in how we respond to this as a society, however. The Minister of State will recall the attempt by AIB to remove cash from 70 of its branches in 2020. This caused considerable legitimate and valid unease across the country. The response reflected how vital a resource cash remains for many people.

In recent years, we have also seen sinister attempts by service providers and businesses to restrict the ability to use cash. We are all seeing more and more signs at cash registers saying "Card payments only". You see them all around the place and not just in major cities and towns. Frankly, that needs to be stamped out. I need to go through the legislation again to identify whether there are provisions in place to address that particular phenomenon. We have all stood behind people who we were embarrassed for when they were turned away from accessing the service they wanted or from buying the product they wished to buy or the meal they wanted to have because they did not have a card or did not have a card on their phone, that is, they did not have electronic means of paying. They prefer to pay in cash and want to do so. The GAA, which Deputy Ó Murchú mentioned, the NCT, Irish Rail and a few others have been rightly criticised for attempting to remove the ability to pay with cash. We can be thankful that they rolled back on those attempts or that at least most of them did. We need to be forceful in pushing back against businesses and services that try to force people into non-cash transactions. I know we are technically discussing access to cash here but the ability to actually use that cash is the important point. The Minister of State will understand the logic there.

In a similar way, people should not be punished for choosing to use cash over other methods. We are seeing what effectively amount to penalties for cash use where services offer discounts for non-cash payments. While we all support the Leap card initiative for reasons that are understood, it is an example that springs to mind.

We cannot assume that everyone has kept pace with the recent strides towards a cashless society. We are all aware that not everyone favours this way of going about their business. Our banking and payments systems must reflect that. There remains a strong need for cash among certain cohorts. We have to be cognisant of that fact. Perhaps the most obvious example is one that other speakers have touched on, that is, older people who may not be as technologically literate and digitally confident as some others. As the Minister of State will know from her role as Minister of State with responsibility for older people, cash is a vital resource for older people and their access to it and ability to use it must be protected.

Having said that, and as other Deputies have said, the main driver and issue here is people experiencing poverty. There is a direct correlation between those who experience poverty and cash use and that needs to be understood. In its contribution to pre-legislative scrutiny of this Bill, Age Action noted that this is an issue of social exclusion. That is what it fundamentally is. As the digital and online worlds become more and more embedded into our social and economic fabric, those who cannot, for a variety of reasons, keep pace are being left behind. Age Action went on to note that three in ten older people do not use the Internet at all while a further three in ten have below basic digital skills. The rush towards online and digital banking therefore poses a serious threat to their ability to safely and securely manage their financial affairs. For a good number of years, we have been calling for a national financial literacy strategy. This was reflected in the banking review report. To be fair, I know it is something the Minister is committed to.

On a related matter, there is also the issue that many people simply do not trust the new and emerging online banking services and not without good reason. We will all have heard of the various phishing scams. We have represented people who have been caught up in those scams. It is often those who are not as digitally literate as most who fall prey to those scammers. We have all received those text messages on our phones but some people respond and act when they receive them. We all know the consequences of that.

For all its progress in recent years, digital banking is still a new and emerging technology. There is still a lot of work to be done before people will have full confidence in the infrastructure's ability to protect people and their finances. Cybercrime and IT failures remain very real threats. We should not be forcing people to simply accept these risks as we remove their access to cash. Access to cash is a protective measure in and of itself. It makes people feel more secure.

I do not want to give the impression that protecting cash is just a matter for older people. That is not the case. There is still a genuine appetite for cash. A European Central Bank survey from December 2022 found that 64% of people in Ireland felt it important to have the option to pay in cash. The Department of Finance's consumer banking survey of 2023 reports that almost a quarter of people prefer cash transactions. Others have mentioned the importance of cash to those on lower incomes. It is an important budgetary measure for them because cash is often easier to control and makes it easier to keep track of spending than online banking or using a card. It is vital that this ability is maintained. Access to cash is really important to allow those who are on low incomes to manage the limited resources they have.

I will also raise the importance of cash for victims of domestic abuse. Financial and economic abuse often goes hand in hand with physical or emotional abuse in domestic situations. Digital and online banking makes it a lot easier for perpetrators of abuse to monitor and control their victims' access to and use of money. This severely hampers the victims' ability to escape the dangerous, damaging and horrendous situation they may be in. Sometimes, the victims may not even have access to their own bank accounts, making access to cash even more vital.

Ultimately, what we are talking about here is the protection of choice, the availability of banking services and infrastructure, the option to choose to move towards digital banking and spending, and the ability to continue to use traditional cash payments and person-to-person services or to make use of a mix of both, which is what most people do. I have serious concerns that choice and the availability of in-person services is being more and more restricted in the banking landscape more generally, not just as it relates to cash versus non-cash. We have seen the gutting of banks' local branch networks in recent years. Together, AIB and Bank of Ireland have closed hundreds of branches and not just in rural areas. While the availability of online and digital services is to be welcomed, it should not come at the expense of bricks and mortar branches, which remain valuable assets for customers and communities.

Furthermore, in cases where branches remain open, we know that the range of services is reduced. As opposed to over-the-counter services, there has been a push among retail banks towards automated services within branches, something that may not suit the needs of all customers. How many times have we been in bank branches using the digital services that are there and finding that several people are available to help people who might have difficulty with those digital services? I often wonder whether they do the kind of time and motion studies that should be required to make these decisions because a human being is always required to support people in difficulty, whether in a retail setting when buying your shopping and putting it through the scanner or whether in the bank when the digital service fails you.

The banking review recommended that banks should be required to submit assessments to the Central Bank if they are planning to significantly alter their services in branches or to close a branch entirely. The Labour Party would certainly endorse that. We have been saying this for many years. We are all too familiar with the level of support the Irish taxpayer was forced to provide to the Irish banking sector a number of years ago. The sector does not show the same interest, or the kind of interest it ought to, in Irish society. There should be very serious thresholds set by the Central Bank where a retail bank is considering closing any branch in this country at any point. Social and economic assessments should be undertaken and only if the Central Bank is satisfied that certain thresholds have been met should consent be given for a bank to close a branch.

This phenomenon is not unique to the large retail banks in this country. As Deputy Ó Murchú raised earlier on and as we both raised in the House yesterday in another context, there is an issue regarding the unilateral decision of the executive and senior staff of a significant credit union network in County Louth to close two branches, one in the village of Kilsaran and another in the village of Clogherhead. Members were not consulted about that. Even though the case was not presented to the members, the defence offered by those who took the decision was that the services have moved online.

The credit union registrar should be introducing the same kinds of thresholds and criteria that we want the Central Bank to introduce when it is going to consider the decisions taken by major retail banks to close branches. The credit union regulator should be applying the same principles to credit unions. These are organisations founded on democratic principles. When it suits them, they set those democratic principles aside. We need to be mindful of this point more generally.

Broadly speaking, the erosion of the choice and availability that we have in Irish financial services was, of course, compounded by the recent withdrawal of KBC and Ulster Bank. Conditions in the global banking industry have made it difficult for new banks to enter the Irish market and there are uniquely domestic conditions that militate against this happening. Of course, this all stifles competition and means there are fewer choices for Irish consumers. This leads to higher interest rates, higher mortgage interest rates, a lack of competitive savings products and so on. It does engender a very real risk of a real duopoly emerging in the Irish market between AIB and the Bank of Ireland, with Permanent TSB somewhere way behind. This is just one of the reasons we in the Labour Party support the development of a real public banking model, a community banking model, here.

Mario Draghi was not wrong in 2018 when he said that the Irish banking system operates as a quasi-monopoly. In fact, those words are truer now than they were in 2018, with the retrenchment that has happened since then, with banks like KBC and Ulster Bank having left the market. The State, of course, retains a significant shareholding in AIB, meaning it continues to be an active participant in the banking sector. We are concerned that the Government's plans to return the bank to full private ownership also see a further remodelling of its business to compete with digital-only banking providers like Revolut, which have a different cost base. We could then see a further socially disruptive gutting of more branches across bank networks. The view that the State can outsource the filling of the resulting gaps in physical services to our much valued and dynamic credit unions and An Post is misguided. An Post is being asked to provide more services and, in itself, this is a good thing. The credit union movement is also being asked to provide more services and this, in itself, is also a good thing. They can, of course, be doing more but they cannot provide all the services we are used to getting from the established banks.

Regarding the technicalities and what this Bill seeks to achieve, as I said, the premise is sound. It is welcome that IADs and CIT companies will be brought under the regulatory framework of the Central Bank and that certain obligations will be placed on them to ensure reasonable access to cash. Given the number of ATMs that have been sold off by the big banks to IADs, it is important that they fall under these frameworks to offer greater consumer protection and the continued guaranteed provision of services. The IAD business model relies on service charges for the use of ATMs. Given that they own 60% of our ATM network, it is important that there is some level of control over those charges to prevent consumers from being ripped off. Many people already find the existing charges excessive. The provision in the Bill empowering the Minister to limit fees will be welcomed and I encourage him to exercise that power. These fees can and do place a barrier on some people actually being able to access their cash.

If I am correct as well regarding the original debate on this Bill, and I must reflect on the legislation again, concerns were expressed about the availability of certain denominations when people go to an ATM. We have all experienced this problem. The reality is that on many occasions, the smallest denomination it is possible to obtain from an ATM is €50. That might not be what people need. It might be the day before payday in many cases and people might need €20 or even €10 to allow them to obtain the messages and groceries they might need and so on. This is something that must also be reflected in the legislation. I need to reflect on exactly what the provisions of the Bill state in this regard, but it is important that we include a reference to this matter in it.

Similarly, given the central role of CIT companies in the circulation of cash in our system, bringing them under the regulatory framework of the Central Bank is a welcome move. There are substantial risk management, governance and business continuity considerations here, so it is important that the Central Bank has oversight. I am also glad to see that this Bill gives the Minister the power to specify the percentage of our population that must be within a given distance of an ATM and I anticipate some lively debate on Committee Stage regarding this topic. Other countries have put this measure in place and I think it is the right move to ensure the protection of our ATM network and to maintain reasonable access to cash. I question why the Minister has not yet specified that percentage. As I said, I have no doubt we will debate this point on Committee Stage. It was set at prevailing levels in December 2022, from the best of my recollection, which I believe put approximately 99% of the population within 10 km of an ATM and put a regional framework in place. That seems fair enough, but I would have liked to have seen a stronger statement of the calculations for each region in the Bill and how the percentage would be arrived at. Perhaps the Minister, with the support of officials, could clarify this aspect.

The point Deputy Doherty made earlier is a universal one that I think everybody will agree with. Having a physical ATM in a specific location is all well and good, but the issue lies with access to it. With the reduction of banking services, we all know that ATMs are being removed from those former banking facilities, especially in certain rural areas, and the only ATM that may be available could be in a shop that might close at 10 p.m. The commitments around this issue need some work.

Notwithstanding all those comments, I reiterate our support for the Bill. It will be very important legislation for those who may feel a bit left behind in the digital era and those for whom cash is easier to manage and budget with. More generally, it is important that people simply have a choice in how they want to do their banking and make transactions. This Bill will, I hope, ensure the continued protection of this choice.

Deputy Robert Troy

With the permission of the House, I am sharing my speaking time with Deputy James O'Connor. I welcome and support this Bill. I compliment the former Minister, Michael McGrath, who worked on it initially, and the Minister, Deputy Chambers, for bringing it forward and ensuring there will be sufficient and effective access to cash in future in this State. Without Government intervention, it is likely that over time we would see a further reduction in the number of ATMs across the State and this is something we do not want to see happening. Cash is legal tender and we should support its use.

One area where the Government can ensure cash is used - I acknowledge it has changed its policy in this regard in recent years -is when people are applying for social welfare payments. Some years ago, the then Minister actually removed the option on the application forms of accessing social welfare payments through people's local post offices. People were being guided to use banks and electronic transfers. This was discouraging people from using post offices. The post office network has been extremely beneficial in terms of maintaining cash in local communities. Where banks have closed, the post offices have stepped up to the mark and are servicing customers in smaller settlements, towns and villages. The Government ensuring that social welfare payments are paid through the post office network is one way of supporting cash in our communities.

Another possibility in this regard is ensuring that unemployment assistance or unemployment benefit payments must be paid through the post office network. This would have a dual impact. It would help to hinder the committing of fraud because people would have to go in person to collect their payments from the post office. It would also keep cash in circulation in communities. Last week, we had representatives of the Irish Postmasters Union in the audiovisual room. I put it on the record that I am a postmaster. I am not speaking for my own benefit, but with the benefit of experience. Where we have post offices in rural communities, we tend to have a greater number of other businesses as well because cash is in circulation in those communities. If we support our post office network, we will actually be supporting our local retail stores and pharmacists, etc., because cash will be maintained in those areas. This is one area on which I would like to see the Government having a greater focus.

I also raise the issue of sporting facilities and sporting organisations saying they cannot accept cash on entry. In certain locations, I have been contacted by people who have been lifelong supporters of club and county teams. They arrived at the county grounds and were told that if they had not bought their tickets in the local SuperValu, or whatever the outlet, they could not get in through the gate. I think this is wrong. The Government should write to the GAA and all sporting bodies and ensure that when we are talking about cash being legal tender, we would ensure it is accepted at events run by sporting organisations.

I was contacted by somebody who told me that the organisers of the ploughing championships did maintain a cash entrance but an elderly person had to walk over a kilometre to use it. That is wrong. Cash is legal tender, we need to support it and the Government can do that in many of its policy decisions. This one is a very welcome policy decision.

Deputy James O'Connor

I thank Deputy Troy for allowing me to use some of his time and the House for allowing me to speak. This is a very important issue to me personally. We must remember the prelude to why this came about through the good work of the previous Minister, Michael McGrath, and now with the Minister, Deputy Chambers. I recognise my constituency neighbour in the Minister of State, Deputy Butler. During the current Dáil, we saw the widescale withdrawal of commercial banking from communities across the country. Many Members of the House, including myself, joined forces to push against the pillar banks' systematic pulling out of rural towns. In my own constituency, places like Mitchelstown and Youghal, a town of 8,000 people, would have been left with no bank if AIB had pulled out, with Bank of Ireland having already closed its bank in that town. This has devastating consequences when it comes to small, independent retailers. I am talking about the local florist, the bakery and the day-to-day businesses that populate main streets far away from urban centres like Dublin. Important as it is here, when you go to the countryside people are a little bit different in how they live their lives. As a rural TD, I am conscious of the importance that cash has for small businesses. I am thinking of our restaurant sector as well. I had meetings with restaurateurs yesterday where we spoke about the challenges facing them. Tipping means that cash is a big part of the lives of the service staff and employees whom these people hire, whether they are young students in part-time employment during their undergraduate studies, or people who might be working summer jobs during their holidays from secondary school.

The other important aspect is the security situation. If we move to an entirely digital economy where everything is done by contactless payment off mobile phones, we are leaving ourselves in an enormously vulnerable position from a national security perspective. Some countries in the European Union have already been having a conversation about the necessity of making sure hard cash tender is in circulation in the event of a major cyberattack. We saw what happened with international aviation due to the UK air traffic issues. When there is a major outage, that can impact the economy and the logistics of our day-to-day lives. We are very vulnerable if we allow things to persist without bringing forward legislation like this, which pretty much gives further effect to the fact that cash, as Deputy Troy has said, is legal tender.

I call on the most important organisations in our State in the sporting field and our commercial banks to ensure they continue to offer legitimate cash services through ATMs in their bank branches, and also ensure bank branches have working ATMs in place. I do not know how many times I have gone to an ATM, no matter where I am, with the intention of spending that money locally, to find an out-of-order sign on the front of it. This is wholly and entirely unacceptable. All Members of this House should get behind this important bipartisan legislation to support the main streets of our towns and villages, our small businesses and those who depend on cash in their day-to-day lives, whether they are elderly, vulnerable or it is just part of their day-to-day lives. With the Ceann Comhairle's indulgence, I would like to conclude by mentioning that in agriculture there is a strong tradition when trading cattle, animals, livestock or machinery that cash is part and parcel of day-to-day business.

Deputy Denis Naughten

A bit of luck money.

Deputy Martin Browne

It is welcome to finally see some legislation that might put some manners on the banks. They have tried to reduce the ability of people to access cash when and where they want over the last couple of years. Let us not forget that cash remains the preferred payment method of one in five people in Ireland. It is also important for social and financial inclusion for many people, and is a primary safeguard of privacy and against financial fraud, which is a greater risk than ever before. Last year when AIB tried to remove cash machines from Cashel, Carrick-on-Suir, Roscrea and Cahir, there was uproar. There was a unanimous decision by the public at that stage and the voice of the public made them change their minds and they reversed the closures in haste. As has been said, with some of the machines you would wonder is it being done deliberately. As Deputy O'Connor said, every time you go to them they are out of cash. At the time, the Government was caught on the hop. Unpreparedness did not sit well with the people. It indicated how Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael seek to appease the banks more than the general public in all these cases. The banks thought they could take advantage of this. Initially the Government said nothing at all about it despite having been shareholders in the bank. When the public did speak up, the message could not be ignored so they reversed it.

Under this Bill, cash infrastructure is to be maintained more or less at the level it was at in December 2022 for existing banks. The Central Bank will also be empowered to assess local deficiencies, especially in areas where it is particularly difficult to access cash. The Bill is very vague about what communities, individuals and businesses will be able to depend on in the future. It needs to be amended before this goes any further. I also have concerns about not protecting the right to use cash, with only access to it provided for in the Bill. This omission disregards the one-fifth of our population who prefer to use cash. That also needs to be addressed. Research has shown that reduced access to cash presents disproportionate risks to rural communities, those experiencing poverty, and those who choose to conduct their transactions through cash for whatever reason, such as security and so on.

Withdrawals from ATMs should not incur a fee, either. Banks are already charging us for having accounts with them. They are robbing the public. Every time we tap a card, they are charging us as well. They did not pass on an interest rate increase to savers while they were very quick to impose it on mortgage holders. I have also advocated for access to cash as a means of payment in these changing times. I am glad some sense has been brought to this affair although some of the details still need to be ironed out before the Bill passes through the Houses.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I very much welcome this Bill which seeks to ensure that everyone, regardless of where they live, has a reasonable level of access to cash. This legislation was proposed by the retail banking review in 2022. We in the Social Democrats fully support the implementation of this recommendation. There is no doubt that cash usage has declined rapidly in the last decade, particularly during the pandemic. We now live in a country that has a very sophisticated electronic payment system and therefore a declining need for cash. This change is borne out by Central Bank data. In July, card payments amounted to €8.92 billion, €2.3 billion of which were contactless payments. The use of mobile wallets such as Apple Pay and Google Pay has also significantly increased. Between March 2023 and March 2024, they accounted for half of the 24 billion contactless payments. Notwithstanding this very significant change to the cash cycle, there is still an appetite and indeed a real need for physical money. There is no doubt that there has been a downward trend in ATM transactions, from €18.5 billion in 2015 to €13.5 billion in 2022. While the overall value has declined, the average per-transaction value has increased from just over €120 in 2015 to over €150 in 2022. Clearly, people are using ATMs a lot less but when they do use them, they are withdrawing greater amounts of money. Branch closures, the removal of cash services and a reduced ATM network have greatly contributed to this behavioural change. While most people may have moved to electronic payment methods by choice, many others have been forced to or, worse, many have been left behind.

According to the retail banking review, following the closure of all Ulster Bank branches the entire branch network reduced from 617 to 438. Of those remaining bank branches, 21% have no staffed cash counter.

Regarding our ATM network, Ireland had the third highest decrease in ATMs in the EU between 2017 and 2020, after the Netherlands and Belgium. However, it is worth noting that the reduction in ATMs in both the Netherlands and Belgium happened under a structured framework by the state. The same cannot be said about Ireland, where the rapid decrease in ATMs was as a result of decisions that were taken by the banks in their own interest.

As a result of successive governments' hands-off approach to banking policy, the pillar banks were also given free rein to sell their off-site ATM network. In 2018 Ulster Bank sold all its offshore - I apologise; that was a Freudian slip - its off-site ATM network to Euronet. AIB and Bank of Ireland did the same in 2020, selling their entire off-site network to Brink's and Euronet. While the main banks still operate ATMs that are situated on their premises, approximately 75% of all ATM locations are now controlled by independent ATM deployers. They also own approximately 60%. That is a major transformation of the ATM network in a very short time. It is less than a decade since all ATMs were operated by traditional banks. These independent ATM deployers are now significant players in the cash cycle, yet they remain completely unregulated by the Central Bank. I welcome the provisions of the Bill that will finally ensure that these independent ATM deployers and cash-in-transit providers must be registered with the Central Bank. It will be a criminal offence not to do so and it is not before time that that provision is being made.

I also welcome section 32, which introduces prescribed requirements and service standards for ATM operators. The Bill also places additional responsibilities on designated entities, that is, the three main retail banks. It will be up to these credit institutions to address local deficiencies in cash infrastructure, which is the right approach. Some concerns have been raised about placing the entire burden on these banks and not the independent operators which run the majority of the ATMs now. However, this Bill is about enabling us all to access our own money in cash and that money is with the banks, not with independent operators.

We also need to force the pillar banks' hands so that they increase their ATM network. The current level of outsourcing to independent operators is particularly bad for rural communities and for SMEs, which have been hardest hit by branch closures. The IAD business model depends on having ATMs in areas of high footfall. They have no regard for the public good, it would seem. Cash services, even those that are loss-making, are vital for local communities and this consideration must trump commercial concerns.

While I accept that the increased use of cashless payments has made life easier for most people, a clear strategy to manage this transformation is needed. In the absence of such a plan, too many people will undoubtedly be left behind. It is over a decade since the last national payment strategy was published and changes to the cash cycle have far outpaced that plan. We now find ourselves at a crossroads and pre-emptive action is required to ensure that a cashless society does not become a runaway train. I accept that a new payment strategy is on the way and I would appreciate if the Minister could provide an update on that.

Some areas, while related, fall outside the scope of this Bill and they will need to be addressed, in particular the use and acceptance of cash, which was repeatedly raised by stakeholders during pre-legislative scrutiny. People cannot attend a GAA match, renew a driver's licence or, increasingly, even buy a coffee without a debit card. Access to cash is of very little use if an increasing number of businesses, organisations and public bodies refuse to take it. Ultimately this is about inclusion.

We cannot continue down the path towards a cashless society as some of the most vulnerable would undoubtedly be excluded by such a rush. This includes some older people, some on low incomes and those who lack the digital or financial literacy needed to manage electronic payments. Organisations such as Age Action have been warning about the threat of an increasingly cashless society for years now, long before the number of bank branches receded or Covid accelerated the use of electronic payment methods. In 2018 Age Action said that an entire generation of older people were being left behind, with 50% of people aged between 65 and 74 never having been online. This level of exclusion did not improve in the following years. As of 2021, 65% of over-65s experienced digital exclusion, meaning they could not access online or contactless financial services.

We must not lose sight of the fact that cash is still an essential part of everyday life for many people. It is not a choice or a habit; it is a need. I do not believe this Government was trying to move us towards a totally cashless society by design but, without a very clear plan, it was stumbling into one. I welcome that the Government has changed course, but there is more to be done. Cash must not only be available, it must also be accepted. A clear and structured legislative framework is needed to manage this payment evolution and stop the creep towards a totally cashless society.

Deputy Denis Naughten

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Bill. Its aim to ensure effective access to cash across the State is a very welcome proposal. It will set criteria for the accessibility of ATM and cash service points so that no region is left behind. It is important that people have access to cash. It is not just older people; there are many people who are quite concerned about issues regarding online fraud, and this is a way to avoid it. We must also remember that organisations like MABS and other advisers are advising people who find it difficult to manage money or have limited resources to use cash because it is a more effective way to manage that money. We need to be conscious of that. As Deputy Shortall said, it is not just about being able to access cash, it is also about being able to use that cash.

There is merit in this. Despite significant Government investment in urban and rural regeneration funds, innovative funds to revitalise communities, a decision that was taken by the last Government which is now thankfully coming to fruition, we face a critical moment in our local communities. That is down in part to the future of the financial infrastructure in many of our provincial towns.

The decision by Bank of Ireland to close its doors in towns in my constituency such as Elphin, Strokestown, Ballygar and Dunmore has been a significant blow to these particular towns. This is coupled with the fact that Ulster Bank has withdrawn from the Irish market. We need to go beyond the measures before the House today. The actions of the banks to date underscore the urgent need for a State banking force. Before the pandemic, the towns I mentioned were on the path to revitalisation, supported by Government funding for tourism, rural regeneration and various town schemes. However, the closure of these bank branches has set back these recovery plans significantly.

We must now establish a State bank that serves SMEs and personal customers. Our current banking model excludes two key customer bases, namely, personal customers and small businesses. The Bill before us does nothing to address this. With 13% of people not using online banking, and even higher percentages in regional Ireland, we need to have accessible banking services throughout the country. We are speaking about simple services, not only with regard to 24-hour ATM access for withdrawals but also access for lodgements. This would make a significant difference for many of the towns, particularly for businesses that would be able to lodge cash. It is one thing to put an obligation or requirement on businesses to accept cash but then there needs to be a mechanism whereby the cash can be lodged in banks. It is not just about ATM withdrawals. The issue of lodgements also needs to be looked at to ensure these towns recover.

As a result of Covid, people in these towns found themselves acknowledging how important it was to have services in their local town. The actions that have been taken by the banks and the cost-of-living crisis have forced many people to move their business to the bigger towns. We need to take an active approach to try to reverse this. Part of doing this is establishing a separate independent banking force in this country. I propose that we establish a Dáil committee to drive the agenda of establishing a State bank through a cross-party approach. If we do not have a politically driven cross-party approach then it is doomed to failure. The reality is that the financial establishment in this country, in all its guises, is determined to ensure we do not have a third banking force, which would be a State co-ordinated banking force, that would actively compete against the two existing pillar banks.

There is no doubt that there is a mindset of absolutely blocking State involvement in the banking sector. Surely if Covid has taught us anything it is that, when needed, ways can be found for State intervention that is in the long-term public interest. A basic independent banking structure already exists in this country, although it is fragmented. Instead of a copy-and-paste model from some other country, we should start with our existing credit unions and post office network, along with our two existing State banks, namely the Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland and Microfinance Ireland. Our post offices and credit unions provide a comprehensive branch network for personal customers. An Post has more than 500 post offices in locations without banks nearby. The Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland and Microfinance Ireland are already designated to offer flexible finance to SMEs. Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, we need to build on these key strengths and design an economic strategy for rebuilding our economy through our local businesses, which are so important to recovery outside our cities. Before the pandemic 250,000 SMEs accounted for 99.8% of total enterprises and 65% of total employment. SMEs are the backbone of the country and are vital if we are to re-establish a viable economy in many of our rural communities and towns. They are the backbone of these communities but they need to have access to banking services. We need to go significantly further than what we are speaking about in the Bill.

We also need to be far more proactive in providing a competitive mortgage market in this country and in providing access to affordable green finance for homeowners and landlords to improve the energy efficiency of their existing homes. This is not happening in the existing market. In tandem with the better energy homes scheme we should introduce 0% long-term loans for retrofitting homes, whereby repayments are paid back through utility companies based on energy savings, including the use of microgeneration technologies. We could significantly reduce the cost of retrofitting homes in this country if we allowed hydrotreated vegetable oil, HVO, to be used as a cheap alternative for people to switch to sustainable renewable energy. Some 90% of HVO could be blended with 10% kerosene tomorrow morning to ensure that all oil-fired central heating systems in this country could be converted for the cost of approximately €300.

The difficulty at present it is there is an agenda in the country to force people down the heat pump approach. People are not being given an alternative. A report from the SEAI has just been published which states one of the reasons people are being forced down this road is in case, if the cost of kerosene reduced, they might switch back from HVO to kerosene. The figures in this regard are stark. To convert an oil-fired central heating system to a renewable source of hydrotreated vegetable oil would cost approximately €300. To put a heat pump into a building that is 50 or 60 years old the cost is €80,000. We have significant targets to meet with regard to renewable energy. Putting this type of burden on families throughout the country, without the approach I have proposed of zero interest loans with people making repayments based on their energy savings, is irresponsible and puts an additional unnecessary financial burden on families.

While I am on the issue of financial burdens with regard the retrofitting of homes, for the warmer homes scheme we are still looking at a wait of in excess of 24 months, which is more than two years, for an older person to have their home retrofitted to meet the current needs in terms of energy efficiency. It is completely unacceptable that families and older people are left this length of time to have these retrofits carried out. This issue needs to be addressed urgently.

To return to the direct issue of financial services, during my term as Minister I developed a strategy with An Post to protect it from financial collapse. This was to use An Post-owned post offices as a focal point for the development of banking services and other Government services. An Post has the ability to become the offline partner for every Government service in the country, which could then be put completely online, saving a large amount of administration costs. Examples are motor tax, driver licences, passports and ID verification. I could go on and on about this. We could be using our post offices to allow people to purchase Government services with cash and still maintain the online mechanisms proposed by some agencies.

It is a win-win situation for everyone, and it is something we need to seriously look at again.

The establishment of a State bank is not just a financial necessity; I believe it is a social imperative in this country. It will provide our communities with the means they require to thrive and ensure that no one in this country, regardless of location, is left behind into the future and that people can continue to access banking services and use cash.

Deputy Joan Collins

I hope this Bill is the first step in counteracting what I think is a process of profit-chasing by the banks by removing vital in-person infrastructure and services. I hope it is the start of the urgent action needed to ensure everyone has access to cash and banking services and is able to use cash across the economy.

Most people have felt the effects of year after year of branch closures across the State. For many people, it is now extremely difficult to find a branch nearby, let alone one that offers a full range of services. As there is a general election coming up, I went into the bank where we have our bank account because I normally get a short-term overdraft. I always dealt with a finance manager in the bank and would sit down and talk to them. I was told the bank does not do that anymore and that none of the branches do. People have to ring a number now and deal with them over the telephone. It is much more difficult to explain and go through everything over the telephone than it is when you are sitting in front of a person. These types of things obviously affect other people as well.

There has been a mad dash by the banks to try to move everyone onto an Internet banking system to save themselves costs at the expense of anyone who cannot afford the technology buy-in, is not able to travel greater distances or simply does not know how to use the Internet. It is cutting services to make a profit, by banks that would not exist without public bailouts after 2008.

From 2018 to 2023, we saw 176 branch closures across the various banks. This has left communities across Ireland without a bank in their area or town and even without access to an ATM. In Inchicore, where I live, there used to be three banks. There are no banks now. There used to be three ATMs for the public. There are now only two and they are in a supermarket and a petrol station around the corner. That ATM seldom has money in it. This is a serious reduction in people's ability to access services that are central to everyday life.

While I welcome the Bill, this is an issue that far exceeds the need for guaranteed ATM access. It is about guaranteed access to banking services for all. It is about social and economic inclusion and, ultimately, about whether we allow the removal of public good for the purposes of private profit. These banks were bailed out by the taxpayer. It will take generations to pay off that debt. They would not be here without ordinary people and taxpayers' money. There should be an obligation for them to provide these services to all who need them.

I would like to echo Mr. Tom Ruttledge of the Financial Services Union when he said these banks were "withdrawing services from locations because it suits their cost model, not because it suits their customers". I also echo the FSU’s call for a five-year moratorium on branch closures. These banks only exist because of public money, and they should be required - this Bill proves it is possible - to provide a service to the public.

We have a decline in ATM use rates in this country. Some of that is due to the proliferation of card payment and online banking. Some of it is down to a lack of access to ATMs. Plenty of people still use cash as their primary mode of payment and budgeting, however. We cannot act like in-person banking and the use of cash is a thing of the past when so many still rely on it. There is a need for cash in society, whether it be elderly people who might not have access to digital services or know how to access them, people with disabilities who need access to cash services or people who have spent their entire lives budgeting through cash. There are also broad groups of people for whom cash is a fundamental pillar of how they make or raise money, such as charitable donations, tips, busking, homelessness and even communions and confirmations. Access to cash and disposable cash is central to the income of many types of groups and people.

Cash has a limited buy-in. People do not need to purchase the newest smartphone to access it. They do not need to pay monthly phone data bills to have access to cash. Not everyone can afford the buy-in the digitalisation of banking requires. Cash will always be a much cheaper option for those on low-pay or fixed incomes or those who are just struggling to get by.

There is also the problem with digital literacy. Many people grew up with no access or exposure to technology and they would be left out by any significant move to a cashless society. People who do not have that literacy but are pushed to using online payments and banking are far more susceptible to fraud and cybercrime. We can add this to the fact that many people have been using cash as a way of budgeting their whole lives. I do it myself. You take the money out on a Sunday or at the weekend and that is your money for the week. We are facing a cost-of-living crisis, soaring rents and mortgages, massive inflation and huge rises in bills, and any move to push people away from the way they have been budgeting their whole lives should be opposed.

We need Bills like this which ensure access to ATMs, but we need to go further, with real regulation on banks to provide proper access not just to cash services, but to all banking services. We should mandate the acceptance of cash in the economy, like they do in France, to ensure that those who want to use cash day by day can continue to do so into the future.

Ultimately, these are vital services that are central to people’s everyday needs. We cannot allow those services to exist at the whim of some of the biggest profit-making businesses in the world. We need a real public banking option so people have guaranteed access to services that are run for the public good and not in danger of succumbing to collapses like the one in 2008, as well laws to ensure that cash is accepted in all businesses in our economy.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill. If anything was ever to be learned by people across this country or, indeed, across Europe, it was when there was a bit of an outage in technology a few months ago and nobody was able to use their phone set-up or card set-up. Sometimes people go down a road and it is the cool thing to have this card and swipe everywhere they go. That day, however, people who had a few quid in their pocket were able to buy food if they went into any of the main stores but people with cards could not. It was okay if people went into their local small shops in rural Ireland, thank God, because they would give them something, but if they went into the main stores, there was no way of getting the money sorted. If we ever do anything as politicians, we need to learn from that. We learn from mistakes.

There has been a push from Europe over the last number of years. Before that, however, when we as a country decided or were forced, whichever way anyone wants to put it, to bail out the banking system, once they got the money, they were like the robber, and they ran. They shut the doors in an awful lot of smaller towns in rural Ireland. Ballyhaunis, for example, was a real thriving town that had three banks within a few miles of Knock airport and, one by one, each of the main banking pillars, namely, AIB, Bank of Ireland and Ulster Bank, shut their doors. That has happened in many smaller towns around the country. In fairness, the credit unions have picked up the slack in some of those towns. Sometimes, with a struggle, they put in some cash machines. Many in the banking sector are reluctant to put in cash machines. We need legislation to make sure this is driven on.

Cash is legal tender. When anyone talks about cash, it is nearly a thing that people should not have in their pocket nowadays. It is legal tender. People are allowed to use it wherever they want. It is ironic that even Government Departments, and we often see it in appeals or whatever, ask older farmers who might be getting the pension and paid for something in cash to show where it came out of their account. The reality in many parts of rural Ireland is that people who might be on jobseeker's allowance or on a pension try to keep their post offices going, thankfully. People go into the post office with their card and do whatever they have to do to get out cash. Are people not entitled to pay in whatever way they want for the nuts or bit of fertiliser, over a certain length of time when it is put together because one week would not cover a tonne of fertiliser?

Are you not entitled to do what you want with that? Then a Department that should recognise that cash is legal tender says it wants to see where that came out of a person's bank account. That is not the way it works. We have nearly left a generation of people behind. Not everybody has been left behind, but some people did not have the luxury of perhaps going to school for as long as others or keeping up with technology. That is even the case with me. I see people swiping on their phones, but I do not do it because I do not have a clue how to do it. I am younger than some of the people who were never into that.

There is a perception that there is something wrong if contractors are paid in cash. You can give a receipt. Once you have a receipt and it adds up, there is nothing wrong. The banks have done the same with cheque books. There is a particular cheque book for farmers. It is the greatest thing that was ever devised because there is a duplicate in it that cannot be lost. There was a duplicate of every cheque written out, although it was in lighter writing. All the farmers had to do was throw the cheque book into the accountant who then knew everything they had done all year. They tried to get rid of them as well.

The banks were pushing the idea that people buying cattle at marts should use their cards. They did not want to give them cheque books and, above all things, they did not want them to talk about using cash. We must start going back to be sure, in terms of reliability first of all. If you have a few notes in your pocket, you can go anywhere. You can get diesel, petrol or whatever. You can get grub or whatever you want. It needs to be drummed into people as well that it has to be acceptable to use cash because it is legal tender. There was even a debacle about it last year at the ploughing championships, and that is on the agricultural side. People were expected to book their tickets in advance. They did not really want cash, but then they backed down and took cash. This goes on at concerts and all the different events where they do not want to take cash.

I welcome the introduction of the Bill. The impetus for it is coming from Europe, even though I remember that Draghi guy or someone else a few years ago who said we are moving into a different era. He said that everything will be based on technology and we will all be swiping. We learned a few months ago that swiping does not always work and that we need something behind it to make sure that we are okay.

I support any measure coming forward to enforce the use of cash. From talking to some people in financial institutions, I know that they are getting ready to put in more machines. I welcome that, but they thought they were going to get away with being bailed out, then closing the banks and getting rid of cash. They were the three legs of the stool. Thankfully, it is going to backfire.

I watch young people, including my own, tapping and going. That is the thing. They need to get used to making sure, because they do not realise the consequences for the system if they let something go. The technology does not work all of the time, and then people are left high and dry.

I welcome the legislation. It is a step forward. I encourage the Minister of State to ensure that Departments look again at this because some of them look for receipts, for example, and proof of where money came out of a bank, such as in the case of agricultural appeals. If you get money out of the post office, it will not show up. That is the case if you pick up your pension.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to the debate. I fully support this Bill and the intention to set criteria that will ensure access to cash remains at the level prevailing in December 2022. The Bill also aims to bring independent ATM deployers, IADs, and CIT companies under the supervisory remit of the Central Bank of Ireland. This is a very welcome move and a very pertinent one in today's world. Society is becoming increasingly cashless, with contactless payments becoming increasingly popular in Ireland and also globally. There are many advantages to contactless payment. It is obviously easy to use - perhaps too easy at times.

Contactless payment also allows for the option to pay with by using a device, and this is not only very convenient but can be an important way for people to access their finances in times of need or distress, for example, if someone needs to flee a burning house, an abusive situation, or a war-torn country. In so many of these situations, many people are left with only their device and even if they are without their device, there is always an option to source a new one and access their finances in that way, no matter where in the world they are.

Equally, there are many situations in which people only have cash to see them through and they must be able to use this as needed. Easy access to our finances, through whatever means, is vitally important. For that reason, we must ensure that people are given the option of cash or card rather than card only, as is increasingly the case across the country.

A cashless society should be something we actively avoid. Fully cashless venues or businesses severely disadvantage some cohorts more than others, particularly senior citizens, young people, those on low incomes and homeless people. I understand that, on a small scale, businesses have the right to accept whatever type of payment they want if they have communicated this to the customer beforehand. However, the recent inaccessibility of events and venues on a large scale is completely unacceptable. I think in particular of GAA matches. I was recently at a GAA match between my home town and Four Masters in Ardara. Because it was a preliminary county quarter final, people were not allowed to pay in cash. Some people did not go because they objected to the fact that they had to pay by card. If the GAA or other organisations have a difficulty accepting cash, they need to sort it out rather than penalising people who want to enjoy a match. In my case, the match was not particularly enjoyable, but that is another matter. Many people were turned away from that game, as were many others across the county and the country at other matches because they did not have access to cards. It is completely unacceptable that avid supporters who go to every league and championship match and pay cash at each one should be turned away from bigger games because they do not have cards. Not only that, but, as already stated, many older people have been affected by this move. God forbid that they would want to go to a county final or an intercounty game because having to buy a ticket online in advance is a nightmare.

Buying tickets online not only forces people to have bank accounts, they must also have access to those accounts and the digital literacy to be able to navigate accessing and paying for tickets. They must also have computer and Internet access. This is particularly difficult for older people but also for those of us who live in rural Ireland and have very weak broadband connections. I have said many times before - I will keep saying it until the cows come home - that parts of Donegal still do not have access to fibre broadband connections. The Government and the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan, would like us to forget that fact, but fibre broadband roll-out has completely left Donegal behind.

The GAA is far from being the only organisation pushing cashless events. Many festivals and concerts have gone completely cashless, as have venues such as the 3Arena. This is causing widespread financial exclusion. It is completely unfair to limit access to services, events and venues in this way. This is why the legislation and its designation of credit institutions as designated entities to be responsible for ensuring sufficient access to cash is so important.

I welcome that the Bill will give the Minister for Finance the power to stipulate the minimum percentage of the population of a region to be within a minimum distance of between 5 km and 10 km of an ATM and the power to require a minimum number of ATMs per 100,000 people.

I also welcome that section 12 provides the Minister with the power to prohibit IADs from charging access fees, given that the charging of these fees is not consistent with providing reasonable access to cash. I do query, however, whether the Minister will use this power to support citizens in accessing their cash without fees, or if he will continue to allow IADs to generate revenue through an interchange fee that is paid by cardholders. I urge him to do all he can to ensure access fees are scrapped and that this legislation will be enacted as soon as possible to ensure that we provide a fair and equal society for everyone.

I hope that the legislation can be the start of a process rather than it being seen as an end in itself to make sure that cash is acceptable and that it is considered acceptable by everyone in the country. There are coffee shops not very far from here that will not accept cash at all if you are buying a cup of coffee, which is ridiculous. It is the same with the GAA, the 3Arena and other entities that do not accept cash. The reality is that cash is legal tender. People have to use it and they should be facilitated to use it. It is fair enough if we want a cashless society, but we must work towards having both together until we get to the point where people want it. People want cash, and they should be able to use it.

The Government's role should be to facilitate that because - one thing is for certain - the banks will not facilitate that. The banks will have to be forced, kicking and screaming, to make sure that they continue providing those cash services and we have to make sure that everybody else continues to provide those services as well.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Matt Shanahan)

The next slot is the Government's and I ask the Minister of State would she prevail to allow Deputy Durkan contribute for a few minutes.

Deputy Mary Butler

Certainly.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Matt Shanahan)

The Deputy has five minutes.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I agree with the sentiments expressed by the previous speakers in regard to the availability of convenient cash for the consumer because the consumer or the customer is the most important person. We have learned this on many occasions over the years. A classic example was that we had a cash machine here in this House which was very convenient for many people. It was in a secure place for staff and Members of the House. What happened? During Covid, some wise guy somewhere decided to remove it on the basis that there was very little footfall. We were in the middle of the Covid restrictions. I cannot understand how it was decided and who the person was who made that decision, but I would love to know. If the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach can find out who that person was who took away from customers something they had enjoyed previously, without any reference to customers, I would love to know and if the person would like to come before a committee of the House to explain his or her hurried decision.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Mary Butler)

I thank all Deputies who contributed to this debate for their support and constructive engagement on this important legislation. I am certain that my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Chambers, looks forward to engagement with Deputies on Committee and Report Stages on the issues raised this evening.

As the Minister, Deputy Chambers, stated, the purpose of the Finance (Provision of Access to Cash Infrastructure) Bill is to ensure sufficient and effective access to cash is available in the State, and to put in place a framework so that any further evolution of the cash infrastructure will be managed in a fair, orderly, transparent and equitable manner.

The framework that the Bill proposes to put in place has a number of important features, including the introduction of access to cash criteria, the facility to report a local deficiency, mandatory requirements for monitoring and reporting in relation to ATMs and cash service points, information gathering and sharing between relevant bodies, and the setting of service standards for ATMs. These elements will provide certainty for members of the public regarding the availability and accessibility of cash, a certainty that many will welcome.

The legislation has been carefully drafted to avoid imposing an excessive burden on those concerned, and contains provisions for the access-to-cash criteria to be reviewed by the Central Bank. Reviews will happen following updated census figures, if cash demand drops significantly in a calendar year, or if the Minister for Finance requests a review to be done. The Central Bank may also conduct a review on its own initiative at any time. These provisions ensure that the criteria can be adjusted in response to the demand for cash in the State as it changes, and that the access to cash framework can evolve with demand thereby remaining sufficient and effective into the future.

Ireland is not alone in introducing legislation of this nature. A collaborative access-to-cash solution from industry is the norm in several countries, as well as governing legislation.

This legislation also dovetails with progress at EU level. The European Commission published a proposal for a regulation on legal tender in June 2023 to look at access to, and acceptance of, cash across member states. The proposal places an obligation on member states to ensure sufficient and effective access to cash, to monitor and assess access to cash, and report to the Commission and the European Central Bank. This Bill aligns with the EU legal tender proposal.

There are, as has previously been said, those who prefer or rely on cash for a variety of reasons. For example, as has been stated here, older people have reported feeling a push towards online banking, despite a preference for cash. Indeed, the Department of Finance's consumer sentiment banking survey, published last week, found that in-person branch visits are the preference among those aged 65 or older, who are also more likely to spend a higher proportion each week using cash.

This is why the Minister for Finance is pleased to present this legislation today; it will ensure that those who rely on cash can continue to do so, and will also establish a framework to ensure that cash access infrastructure in Ireland can respond to changing demand in the future.

As Minister of State for mental health and older people, I believe that access to cash is a serious issue. Ireland was the first country in the world, in 2019, to receive age-friendly status from the World Health Organization. I believe that this Bill is an age-friendly initiative and I genuinely welcome it.

This is important legislation, and the Minister for Finance looks forward to further discussion on the Bill as it progresses through the House.

Question put and agreed to.