Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 26 Sep 2024

Vol. 1058 No. 5

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Financial Services

Deputy Robert Troy

I thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach. I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this matter.

Like, I am sure, many other people, I am dealing with many constituents who have no option only to deal with vulture funds. For example, in marital breakdown, a couple decided to come together and were prepared to sell the house. It was a voluntary sale. They engaged an auctioneer, did all the work for the vulture funds and submitted multiple financial statements in the hope that they would be allocated some bit of a write-down or re-location allowance. Despite continuous engagements, they received no write-down and no acknowledgement of the work that was done.

In the case of another vulture fund, Bank of Ireland sold the loans to it only last year. Both applicants are retired, one due to severe physical and mental ill-health. They have a small occupational pension and a social welfare payment. There is equity in the house. The fund will not engage. There is no write-down and no acknowledgement of co-operation.

In the case of another fund, both parties are residing in the family home despite marital breakdown. They have no choice to go to separate homes. They have to stay in the marital home living different lives. They agreed a monthly repayment before the interest rates started going up. The applicants were honouring that payment but, as the Minister of State will be aware, interest rates have gone up over the past number of years and vulture funds have been hugely aggressive in terms of how they have increased their interest rates, in some instances, up to 9.5% and 10%. The parties were unable to meet the monthly commitment that was set in place. The vulture fund had put in place an arrangement and then pushed up the interest rates, and they could not meet the commitment.

I have another vulture fund seeking the repossession of a family home where the original homeowner signed the home over to his daughter and son-in-law who re-mortgaged the house. The son-in-law has gone AWOL, no mortgage has been paid and now we have somebody in their 70s at risk of losing the family home. I am dealing with people like this day in, day out.

Dealing with vulture funds is like knocking one's head against a brick wall. Vulture funds invest in distressed assets. They form part of an unregulated world of shadow-banking. They only have one thing in common, that is, to seek above-average returns on their capital, and they are only accountable to their managing director and their investors.

It is important to note that vultures only tend to purchase home loans where there is a default or arrears exist. When a customer defaults or goes into arrears, including even voluntary arrangements like those I alluded to, the contract is broken and they effectively lose most of their contractual rights. They resist offering loan write-downs even though they have bought the borrowing at a greatly written-down amount. There are no deals to be done as there is no financing available in Ireland for retail borrowers who have got into difficulty. Payment terms are continually assessed, redefined and changed depending on affordability to the homeowner. You might say it is death by a thousand cuts. The interest rates are applied even though the maximum cash has been extracted. As I said in my earlier example, they are charging grossly excessive interest rates.

Where do we go to help these people? There are tens of thousands of these people who have got into difficulty with their family home. We have brought in huge supports under Housing for All, but most of these people who are trapped in dysfunctional or arrears situations have nowhere to go. When we try to engage with the vulture funds, they will not engage with us and there is nowhere independent we can go to try to get some help and reprieve for our citizens.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Mary Butler)

I thank Deputy Troy for raising this issue. I am taking this on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Chambers, who had a Cabinet meeting this afternoon and so is not in a position to attend. The Central Bank has put in place a range of measures to protect consumers who take out or have a mortgage or other loan. This consumer protection framework seeks to ensure all Central Bank-regulated entities are transparent and fair in all their dealings with borrowers and borrowers are protected from the beginning to the end of the mortgage life cycle, for example, through protections at the initial marketing and advertising stage, in assessing the affordability and suitability of the mortgage, and at a time when borrowers may find themselves in financial difficulties.

This consumer protection framework applies to all Central Bank-regulated entities that provide credit to consumers. Following the enactment of the consumer protection Acts of 2015 and 2018, and more recently the European Union regulations of 2023, the Central Bank consumer protection framework equally applies to any entity that services or, where applicable, holds the legal title to the rights of a creditor under a mortgage or other credit agreement. Any entity, therefore, which purchases a loan or acquires the legal rights of a creditor under a consumer credit agreement, unless it already has an appropriate authorisation from the Central Bank, will be required to be authorised or regulated by the Central Bank. These regulated entities must act in accordance with Irish financial services law and with the consumer protection regulatory framework that applies to all Central Bank-regulated firms.

This means that when a creditor sells or assigns its legal rights under a credit agreement to another creditor, the consumer protections that were available to borrowers prior to such a transaction remain in place. While the level of consideration paid for the sale and purchase of a portfolio of loans is a commercial matter for the parties to that particular transaction, the new creditor which acquires the contractual rights and benefits of the creditor following such a transaction will do so based on the terms of the existing loan agreement and based on the regulatory protections available to customers. Any new creditor will accordingly only be able to operate and enforce a credit agreement in accordance with the relevant terms of the particular agreement and in accordance with the relevant consumer protection framework.

This consumer protection framework is strong and it includes the various Central Bank statutory codes of conduct such as the consumer protection codes and the code of conduct on mortgage arrears. The code of conduct on mortgage arrears, in particular, provides specific protections to borrowers in arrears or facing a prospect of arrears on a loan secured on a primary residence. Under the CCMA, all relevant regulated entities such as a bank, a retail credit firm or a credit financing firm must proactively encourage borrowers to engage with it about financial difficulties that may prevent the borrower from meeting his or her mortgage repayments. When a borrower is experiencing repayment difficulty, a regulated entity must explore all of the options for an alternative repayment arrangement offered by the entity to determine if a more suitable and sustainable repayment option is available based on the borrower’s individual circumstances. If a borrower is not satisfied with the options proposed or if the regulated entity declines to offer an ARA, an appeals mechanism is provided for it in the CCMA. In addition, a regulated entity must review an ARA at intervals that are appropriate to the type and duration of the arrangement, including at least 30 calendar days in advance of an ARA coming to an end.

Deputy Robert Troy

I know the Minister of State is only replying on behalf of her colleague, so I do not expect her to be able to answer all questions herself. To my mind, however, the simple fact is that the Central Bank is only concerned with ensuring its debt ratios are achieved. It was a cheerleader for the banks to sell off distressed assets to vulture funds in order that the bank's ratios in terms of non-performing loans would be achieved, the balance sheets would look healthier, it would be the best boy in the class and to hell with the customer the bank missold a product to. Let us not forget that the banks got it wrong. It was all blaming the customer because they borrowed too much, but in many instances the banks lent too much and did so because they were receiving commission on the back of sales. We learned earlier this month that the Central Bank was disbanding the consumer protection division within the Central Bank. Forgive me if I am not jumping up and down with excitement that the Central Bank has the consumers' interests at heart. I do not believe it does.

Because the vulture funds are dealing with non-performing customers, they have broken their contract. I will admit that sometimes consumers ignore it deliberately and engage in trying to manipulate the contract and trying not to pay what they need to pay. By and large, however, where people are trying their best, where they are coming forward with proposals to restructure, where they are looking for some sort of debt forgiveness based on the fact the vulture funds have bought the product at a much reduced rate, I do not believe we are doing enough to support these people. Will the Minister of State bring that back to the Minister, Deputy Chambers, to ensure we do more to support people who are making legitimate attempts to keep the family home and the roof over their heads?

Deputy Mary Butler

I will bring back to the Minister what the Deputy has said, and I understand his passion. I do not think there is any Deputy in the House who has not engaged with people who have found themselves in the same predicament. I put on the record of the House that the overall level of mortgage arrears continues to decline and, as per statistics recently published by the Central Bank, the number of primary dwelling accounts in arrears is now below 46,000. The number of accounts in long-term arrears also continues to decline and is now just a little above 20,000 from 30,000 in December 2020. This is the lowest level of long-term arrears since the Central Bank started to publish regular data on mortgage arrears.

I emphasise that all regulated entities, including banks, other regulated mortgage lenders, loan owners and servicers are required as a matter of law to follow the statutory Central Bank codes of conduct, including the code of conduct on mortgage arrears and the consumer protection code. These codes are not voluntary and there can be no question of the regulated owners not following them. Failure to do so can result in the Central Bank using its range of powers to ensure adherence to the codes, including its administrative sanctions procedures or legal actions where appropriate. If the Deputy has information to indicate a regulated firm is not complying with the Central Bank's consumer protection framework, I ask that he submit the information to the Central Bank, which is the independent regulator of these financial institutions.

In addition to the protections available to consumers under financial legislation and the regulatory framework, a consumer also has recourse to the ombudsman. If a customer is not satisfied with how a regulated firm is dealing with him or her in the handling of his or her mortgage or if the consumer believes the regulated firm is not following the requirements of the Central Bank's code and regulation, he or she should make a complaint directly to the regulated firm. I will take back to the Minister what the Deputy has articulated.

Special Educational Needs

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House to address this issue. I apologise that I was not able to get back into the House the other night due to a roads diversion.

This issue has been aired many times over the years. I happened to be on a programme with a journalist recently who had to face that particular problem. He and his spouse found all the obstacles put on the course. I was thinking about it afterwards and I discovered that we all try to resolve those issue on a case-by-case basis. There does not seem to be a regime to kick into place as soon as the diagnosis is received. Early diagnosis is hugely important for children with autism and similar complaints but it should follow that the necessary treatment is available. Speech and language therapy, physiotherapy, occupational therapy or whatever is required, needs to be put in place immediately. Any delay will cause further issues at a later stage and further consequences for the child.

Invariably the parents go to the ends of the earth to help their child out. They make huge sacrifices such as going for costly private assessments to get the thing moving and they do it again and again. We have all dealt with the cases when an assessment is taking place, whether it be a mild, severe or profound diagnosis. There is a big difference between them. In many of those cases, there are situations where the parents have provided almost a hospital environment in their homes and the ways and means of catering for their child on a 24-7 basis. It has to shock us the degree to which those parents have to commit themselves. As one woman said to me some time ago "I have been at this for 25 years"; 25 years is a long time, albeit with some respite. Sometimes, there is no respite. For example, there is no maternity cover for speech and language therapists in that kind of situation. The child is then put under further pressure because they have to catch up at a later stage.

Looking at it again, I think it is necessary to put in place a sequence of events that kick in from the moment of diagnosis. Depending on whether a diagnosis is mild, severe or profound, the appropriate backup services should be made available to the parents and the child to minimise the delay. We should try to make sure the child's future - insofar as we can - is in someway guaranteed or helped so that they will at least be confident enough in the time ahead to be able to live their lives in society in the best way they can. It is important we do this now and that we recognise it. It is unfair to the parents and the children in question to have to go over the same performance repeatedly and come to the same spot. I have seen situations, as everybody has, where children have seriously injured themselves and have had to go to hospital. They have had to sit all day on a waiting list in the hospital with everybody else. There should be a system where there would at least be a recognition of the child's predicament and that the child would be removed from the queue, dealt with and the family sent home. Those are just a couple of the things that come to mind and I am glad to be able to ask the Minister for a reply.

Deputy Mary Butler

On behalf of my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Rabitte, who has responsibility for disabilities, I thank Deputy Durkan for raising this important issue and for offering us the opportunity to respond. The Government and the HSE are fully committed to delivering real and tangible solutions to enhance services to better support children with disabilities in Ireland. The progressing disability services roadmap 2023 to 2026 focuses on the ongoing development of children's disability network team services to meet current and growing demand. PDS is a needs-led model of service where a child does not require a diagnosis to access services and the CDNTs provide a multidisciplinary assessment of individual needs and strengths as well as therapy supports. The current delays in accessing assessments of need and therapy interventions are acknowledged and work is ongoing by the HSE to maximise the capacity of CDNTs via recruitment campaigns and other measures, including sourcing assessments through private providers.

The HSE advises it is receiving approximately 10,500 applications annually, with around 3,400 assessments of need completed each year. Under budget 2024, record funding of €2.9 billion has been provided for specialist community-based disability services. This 10.6% increase is supporting the HSE in seeking to meet demands in respect of the provision of therapies to children and to also meet the legislative demands of the assessment of need.

On 21 May this year, the Government announced a decision to finance an assessment of need waiting-list initiative through the procurement of private assessments for long-wait families. The waiting list initiative targets those families waiting longer for assessments of need, with the HSE reimbursing clinicians directly through the procurement of capacity from approved private providers. Targeted funding of €6.89 million will allow the HSE to procure up to 2,500 additional assessments of need, with delivery targeted over the next three months, and will target those families waiting longest. Information received from the HSE areas indicates that under this targeted initiative, in the order of 1,100 assessments of need were commissioned from private providers during the months of June, July and August at a total cost of €3.5 million. In the first half of this year, 1,841 assessments of need have been completed, which is a 28% increase on the same period last year. This increase is due, in part, to the new targeted waiting list initiative that commenced.

The HSE continues to seek to recruit therapy professionals to the respective teams in order to enhance capacity. Funding has been allocated by the Government for that purpose as well as private sector bolstering of overall capacity. I also point out that this was one area that was not affected by the moratorium last year. Recruitment continued the whole time. However, while the HSE continues to maximise the capacity of the private sector to support both assessment of need and therapy provision, in keeping with the difficulties in recruitment of health and social care professionals, the HSE reports that private sector capacity is becoming increasingly limited. I am assured by my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, that this remains a matter of extremely high priority for her as well as for senior leadership within the HSE.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I thank the Minister of State. I compliment her good self and her colleague, the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, for the work they continue to do in the whole area for which they have responsibilities. I note that they, and several others, are busy Ministers. That is what one has to be.

It is also worth mentioning that the struggle does not stop just there. It continues. There is a domiciliary care allowance on which a different Department adjudicates. There is usually a battle. First, it gets refused on the basis that - as quoted in countless cases - the child does not need any greater attention than any other child of a similar age. I am sure the Minister of State has read that report many times. This is wrong. The people who make the assessment come to this conclusion, whichever category the child may be in. The children need support now, not in ten or 15 years' time. We have all dealt with cases where the child grows to a teenager and then a young adult and never gets any services, recognition or payment.

We have all dealt with cases where the person with the particular problem, who was diagnosed all those years ago, could be 40 years of age before there is any recognition of their predicament in terms of participating in the workplace. I reject the notion that is sometimes put forward that the child needs no more attention than any other child of similar age. In many cases, they have been left to make their own way in the world and have got into difficulty. That should not be happening. We are supposed to be a caring society. We are a caring society and we have many caring people in our society. The time has come to do something urgently about this.

It was referred to on the television programme that the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, was refused a meeting with the HSE. I do not know how that came about but it should not happen under any circumstances. If we can find out the details of that, it needs to be dealt with.

Deputy Mary Butler

I was watching the programme that night. Once again, I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue, which the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman, and the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, are extremely involved with. Indeed, the whole of the Government is highly conscious of the need to address the situation.

It is important to reiterate that, as part of the CDNT model of service, a child does not require an assessment of need or a diagnosis to access health services. I acknowledge that CDNTs are currently providing services and supports for over 46,000 children, with 93 dedicated teams across the country. These teams are also providing strategies and supports for urgent cases on the wait-list, where staffing resources allow.

In recent years, the Government has provided funding for additional posts to enhance the capacity of CDNTs and shorten the waiting times. The 2023 CDNT staff census noted an average vacancy rate of 36% across CHOs, a 2% increase on the previous year. However, while an analysis of the data from 2022 to 2023 demonstrates an increase of 152.52 whole-time equivalents in the approved posts, this only reflected a 3% increase in the CDNT workforce, which I find strange.

Detailed engagement continues between the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman, and the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, their officials in the Department of children and the HSE to seek practical and implementable solutions to address the AON issue. I assure the Deputy that the matter is receiving the most urgent attention. As somebody who works very closely with the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, I know she puts her heart and soul into this every day of the week to try to find solutions, and they are not always easy to find.

An Garda Síochána

Deputy Claire Kerrane

I am glad to have the opportunity to debate the falling Garda numbers in my constituency, in counties Roscommon and Galway. It is an issue I have consistently raised and highlighted many times. I recognise the work of An Garda Síochána and its members across the State, as I know every Member of this House would do. In recent months in particular, we have got to know our community gardaí better because, unfortunately, there has been a spate of burglaries across Roscommon and Galway. Earlier this year, when this happened, it began in my home area of west Roscommon. I engaged with local gardaí and we arranged a community meeting, which was beneficial for local gardaí, community gardaí and the community. This is something that should be rolled out more often. Of course, it is difficult because the Garda resources are not there, but it should be looked at. On the back of that, we then rolled out more community alert areas, which are very beneficial. Muintir na Tíre also plays an important role in this regard.

The lack of Garda visibility across communities is a very serious issue and one that I feel is getting worse. I want to be clear that in everything I say in this criticism, it is not aimed at the gardaí themselves. They are under huge pressure and they are stretched.

I want to give one example, although I will not name the town, which is in my constituency. A number of business owners, elected representatives and gardaí met recently and the gardaí told us that this particular town was top of the list in regard to antisocial behaviour and an area of concern in regard to crime. We were told in no uncertain terms that there were no gardaí to put on the beat. What we were offered was a checkpoint and roads policing. That was totally unacceptable and, frankly, irrelevant to the issues that were being raised and that remain an issue in the town itself.

County Roscommon has two Garda districts, Roscommon and Castlerea. Before Covid, there were 171 gardaí in the county whereas there are 146 today. Castlerea district comprises four large towns, Ballaghaderreen, Boyle, Castlerea and Strokestown, and six villages, Tulsk, Keadue, Ballinlough, Elfin, Frenchpark and Rooskey. The census 2022 data tells us there is a population in those areas of 11,297 people and there are 68 gardaí in the district. Garda numbers have fallen in every single district in this area, from Boyle to Castlerea, and where gardaí were previously in smaller villages like Ballinlough and Elfin before Covid, there are now none in those areas. Again, that is a cause of concern for people who live in those villages.

The amalgamation of the Boyle and Castlerea districts in 2012 was a mistake as the area is far too large for that. I understand there are two Garda patrol cars at night in this area, which runs from Ballyfarnan at the top of north Roscommon to Cloonfad, a distance of 67 km. Two Garda cars are nowhere near enough. This needs to be reviewed and it is an issue I have put to the Garda Commissioner. There are just four community gardaí in County Roscommon. Unfortunately, the situation is no better at the other end of my constituency. Ballinasloe is the county town of Galway and has a population of 6,597 people, but Garda numbers have been falling consistently, year on year. Before Covid, there were 46 gardaí in Ballinasloe and there are 38 today. Community garda numbers in Galway have been falling, year on year, and are down to 21 at the moment between the city and county.

There is a serious problem. If we are going to get this sorted out, we need to recognise the problem. We need more gardaí and we need them on the beat.

Deputy Mary Butler

I thank the Deputy for raising the matter. I convey the apologies of the Minister for Justice, Deputy Helen McEntee, who regrets she cannot be here for this matter due to another commitment.

As the Deputy will be aware, by law, the Garda Commissioner is responsible for the distribution of Garda members and resources between the various Garda stations and divisions. The Commissioner is also responsible for operational policing decisions, including setting the opening hours of Garda stations. The Minister has no role in these decisions and she cannot direct the Commissioner or An Garda Síochána to change the opening hours of any specific Garda station. I assure the Deputy that the Garda Commissioner and his management team keep the distribution of Garda members and resources under constant review. This is done in light of operational needs and in close consultation with local Garda management in each division.

I can further assure the Deputy that the Government is committed to building stronger, safer communities, and strengthening An Garda Síochána is at the core of that. Budget 2024 provided the highest ever allocation to An Garda Síochána, over €2.35 billion, which is a 25% increase since 2020. This funding allows for the continued recruitment of Garda members and staff, which will in turn allow the Garda Commissioner to ensure that an effective policing service can be delivered.

The response to the latest Garda recruitment campaign has been very strong, with over 6,300 applying to become gardaí, a significant increase on the 5,000 people who applied last year. To assist with recruitment, the Government increased the training allowance and increased the age of entry from 35 to 50 years. The Minister also recently announced a significant increase in the training allowance paid to trainees, to €354 per week or almost double what it was just a year ago.

The Garda Reserve is also a big part of the Government’s plan to grow An Garda Síochána. I welcome that over 1,800 people have applied to become reserve members in a recent competition.

The Government is determined that An Garda Síochána will grow to 15,000 members and beyond, and it is taking action to achieve that. We are seeing growing momentum in recruitment and more and more gardaí are coming through the Garda College and onto our streets. The Minister was delighted last week to witness 108 new Garda members attesting at the third graduation ceremony of the year, while 165 members were attested in March and a further 157 attested in June.

A total of 135 new recruits entered the college this week for their first phase of training and we all wish them well.

I can inform the Deputy that there are, as of June 2024, 599 gardaí assigned to the Galway division, which is an increase of almost 7% since 2015. As of the same date, 33 probationer gardaí have been assigned to stations within the Galway division since 2020. As of June 2024, there are 581 gardaí assigned to the Mayo-Roscommon-Longford division. As this is a newly formed division, a historical comparison is unavailable. Since 2020, 44 probationer gardaí have been assigned to stations within this division. I assure the Deputy that the policies being taken by this Government will ensure that we can grow the number of gardaí to 15,000, which will benefit all parts of the country.

Deputy Claire Kerrane

I thank the Minister of State for her response. I will say again that community gardaí and overall gardaí numbers in Roscommon are totally unacceptable, particularly in what is now the Castlerea district, which has two Garda cars every night covering a vast rural area of 67 km from one end to the other. I would like to see that area reviewed. The Garda Commissioner needs to look at specific measures for rural areas, town and villages, particularly areas where Garda stations have been closed. The reality is we are not seeing gardaí on the beat. When gardaí come to tell us this town is the biggest issue in the county for antisocial behaviour and crime but there are no gardaí to be put on the beat, then we have a serious problem. That problem has to be recognised by the Government if we are to solve it, which is something we all want.

Usually I raise this issue with the Minister for Justice. I know she is tied in that it is a matter for the Garda Commissioner. The Minister talks about the new operating model, more front-line gardaí and more Garda visibility but that is not happening on the ground.

I raise an issue I have raised repeatedly with the Minister and the Garda Commissioner, namely, Garda transfers. Many wonderful gardaí travel an hour or two up and down for 12-hour shifts and then coming home. A number of them in my county have looked to go on the transfer list; some of them are on it. They do not know whether they will wait six months or five years for a transfer. I do not understand why the Garda Commissioner cannot put in place a system whereby a garda who has served two years can be transferred to a base in his or her division that is within an hour of his or her home. It would give a garda trying to build a house or start a family some certainty. They have no idea whether they will be on the transfer list. They cannot get an update on whether they are on it or not. I have spoken to gardaí who have left the force because they cannot manage the commute and cannot afford to pay rent in Monaghan while building a house in Roscommon. It is not working. It is something we can fix but we are losing good gardaí because we cannot give them the little bit of certainty they deserve. It needs to be looked at.

Deputy Mary Butler

I thank the Deputy for raising this. I will feed back to the Minister's office what the Deputy raised about transfers. She makes a very good point. Gardaí come to us and say similar. The Minister has outlined that recruitment to An Garda Síochána is gathering momentum. The Deputy is right that Garda visibility is crucial to ensuring people are safe and feel safe in their local communities; so too are concerted efforts to tackle crimes like burglary. The Deputy spoke of a spate of burglaries in her area. Burglaries can be a traumatic and invasive experience that can impact on the sense of security people feel in their own homes, especially older people. The Deputy will be aware of Operation Thor, which tackles burglary and actively targets organised crime gangs and repeat offenders through co-ordinated crime prevention and enforcement activity based on intelligence and the latest burglary trends. I am informed that since Operation Thor was established in 2015, there has been a 75% reduction in residential burglaries nationwide.

The Deputy joined me in paying tribute to An Garda Síochána. She was clear that she was not offering a criticism of the gardaí. The Garda crime prevention advice under Operation Thor is highlighted through public information campaigns and by Garda prevention officers, including the Lock Up Light Up campaign. I will feed back the issues the Deputy raised in her area to the Minister's Department.

General Practitioner Services

Deputy Gary Gannon

There is a significant problem developing in my community. The GP Care For All service in the primary healthcare centre in Summerhill is a fabulous service. I knew what existed at that location before in terms of GP healthcare; what exists now is a beyond a world of difference. GP Care For All is a charity-run model. Doctors are salaried. Most important, those who avail of the service are some of the most vulnerable in the community. They have no idea that it is a different style of GP practice from anywhere else - why would they? The doctors are fantastic, the service is amazing and the environment is everything they would need in a clinical setting. As a result of some financial quirk of an anomaly, however, the service is threatened.

It requires an amendment to the finance Bill to change the tax treatment of charity-run GPs such as GP Care For All. A similar measure was adopted last year by the then Minister for Finance, Paschal Donohoe, who is a constituency colleague and would be aware of this service. He brought an amendment through to save a different type of practice relating to business partnerships for GPs. That amendment was brought through for private GPs in a business partnership and we are asking for something similar.

I do not want to see that practice go. It is incredible. The GP Care For All service is a model that should be replicated the length and breadth of the country. There is one in Summerhill and one was due to open in Finglas West. Others should be planned wherever there are vulnerable communities or hard-to-reach GP services. If this goes, we lose not only a valuable service but an incredible opportunity.

I would be surprised if the Minister of State in her position were not aware of the work of GP Care For All. I am surprised this issue has dragged on for so long. It requires an amendment to the finance Bill. That should be done with some degree of urgency. The opportunity for it is nigh. The service is in consistent engagement with the Department of Health and the HSE. It has sought a formal statement from the Department of Finance but, at this point, no such statement has been forthcoming.

I appreciate it is not the Minister of State's exact domain but I would like to hear her statement and respond afterwards.

Deputy Mary Butler

I thank the Deputy for raising the Summerhill primary care centre and GP Care For All. GP Care For All is a registered charity based in the Summerhill primary care centre that provides GP services to the local area. Its aim is to deliver care to patients living in areas of social deprivation, providing access to GP services where it would otherwise be limited.

I assure the Deputy that GP Care For All and the care it provides to the community and its more vulnerable members is highly valued by the HSE and the Department of Health. Delivery of GP services in the area would be very difficult without the operation of GP Care For All. The Minister for Health, his Department officials and the HSE are aware of the current challenges facing the organisation. The core issue relates to the contractual arrangements between GPs and the HSE for the provision of services under the general medical services, GMS, scheme. Under the scheme, the HSE contracts individual GPs to provide GP services without charge to medical card and GP visit-card holders.

In general, a GP who holds a GMS contract is, under tax legislation, the chargeable person as regards income arising under the contract. I think that is what the Deputy is referring to.

Deputy Gary Gannon

It is.

Deputy Mary Butler

The administration of taxation is a matter for the Department of Finance and the Office of the Revenue Commissions. While the local HSE maintains a very positive relationship with GP Care For All, I have been advised that Department and HSE officials have had two meetings with GP Care For All management regarding the current challenges as well as numerous phone calls and written communications on the matter.

These discussions have focused on identifying solutions to the challenges faced by the organisation that are within the purview of the Department of Health and the HSE, which will allow GP Care For All to continue to deliver its services in a way which is sustainable and ensures compliance with all relevant legislation and regulations.

Engagement between the Department of Health, the HSE and GP Care For All is ongoing. It is a priority for the Department and the HSE to ensure that GP Care For All can continue to deliver the important services it provides. That is as much as has been provided in this particular report but my understanding is that a lot of interaction is going on at present.

Deputy Gary Gannon

I thank the Minister of State for the response. This is where my frustration and that of the practitioners comes from, as well as, most importantly, the concern of the multitude of different communities and mostly vulnerable communities that avail of that service. Without question we all accept the substantive work that GP Care For All does. We are all in absolutely no doubt but that the service is and can be transformative. I also have had meetings with GP Care For All and with the HSE. Many people have been taken aback by the breadth of work, the fluidity of the practitioners, the manner in which salaried GPs are there and contributing massively. Then there is the risk that it is going to close. While I appreciate the HSE understands its importance and through the Minister of State's own engagement she clearly understands its importance, we can also appreciate that if this issue does not change then that service will close. I do not submit Topical Issue matters that are flimsy. This is something we do because we have an expectation of urgency. I really need someone from the Department of Finance to tell me - in addition to all these discussions - what we are going to do. This is a House where laws are changed, laws are enhanced and where things are made better.

We have a service that works and there is an acknowledgement from the HSE and the healthcare system that this works. Yet we have ongoing discussions. There was an amendment, which I badly explained in my last presentation, and the GP business practices had something similar in terms of their tax implications, which is a simple amendment to the Finance Bill to change it. My colleague, Deputy Róisín Shortall, who is infinitely more knowledgeable in the area of health than I or many other people will ever be, has made the exact same suggestion. We need an amendment to the Finance Bill that alters the tax arrangements for the salaried GPs in the GP Care For All service so we can keep it and have it thrive and be replicated the length and breadth of the country, because it works.

Deputy Mary Butler

I understand the Deputy's passion on this because at the end of the day, vulnerable people are receiving this care and they need to continue to receive the care. I believe that everyone is in agreement of the value of the services provided by GP Care For All to persons living in areas with social deprivation and all recognise that the organisation is essential to delivery of GP services.

The Department of Health is fully aware of current challenges faced by the organisation and is currently engaged with GP Care For All management on the matter. The Department has met GP Care For All and both sides are exploring possible solutions to those challenges, as discussed at their meetings. Sometimes the challenges relate to the Department of Health only but this is a wider piece. The continuation of the GP Care For All service is a priority for the Department of Health and the HSE. They are actively working with GP Care For All but I will follow up on this. I will follow up on it, if not this evening then first thing in the morning. I am not sure what the situation is in respect of the Department of Finance but everybody needs to see a workable solution here and we need to make sure that GP Care For All is still provided to the most vulnerable people who need it.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar fionraí ar 4.44 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 4.46 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 4.44 p.m. and resumed at 4.46 p.m.