Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Oct 2024

Vol. 1060 No. 5

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Special Educational Needs

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I thank the Minister of State for being here. This saga has been going on for a number of years. As he knows, I am our party's spokesperson on special education and have an interest in this area. Ballincollig as a community has a fairly large population of about 26,000, if not more at this stage. In comparison with the large number of people living there, it has had very few ASD classes over the years. I think it is up to a total of 14 now between all the schools at primary and secondary levels. Some progress has been made in recent years, but ultimately we are way behind other parts of the city and county. Ballincollig, as I have pointed out in the House in the past, has a tradition of having its ASD needs met in surrounding rural villages such as Farran, Ovens, Berrings, Dripsey and places like that.

A number of TDs, including me, were asked to attend a meeting at the school nearly a year ago, where we were given an update on the school's dealing with the Department of Education. Since 2021, Scoil Eoin in Ballincollig has had an application in with the Department for additional ASD and special education units. Three years on, we are still none the wiser whether these will be sanctioned. There are undoubtedly difficulties in the school and the Department will no doubt state in the script provided to the Minister of State that it has maximised available space. A proposal has been submitted to knock the older part of the school and build a two storey, if needed. A decision was taken two years ago that more or less stated that was not the most cost-efficient way of delivering special educational needs provision in the wider Ballincollig area.

I understand they are now looking at other schools in the area that would have sufficient land to cater for the ASD needs of the wider area. For parents of the children in Scoil Eoin listening to that, it will not given much solace that children cannot get an ASD class in the school that many have attended for the past four, five or six years. The process started in 2021. We are three years on and many of the kids who required the ASD class have probably gone on to secondary level.

I do not expect there will be much progress indicated in the response provided to the Minister of State but I raise it to highlight the complete lack of efficiency in dealing with this case and, more widely, in forward planning in the Department. We all hear responses here stating statistical analysis and demographic projections are being done and, much of the time, many years are lost. I am interested in the Minister of State's response, although I have a fair idea what it will say.

If I were to ask the Minister of State to take one thing away this evening, it would be to deliver the message to the Department of Education and the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, that a decision needs to be made on this school one way or the other to give parents finality in terms of how they plan for their child's future education.

Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy James Lawless)

I pay tribute to the Deputy's ongoing advocacy for the special education sector and special educational needs resources. He has been a strong advocate for that over the last term. I am taking this question on behalf of the Minister for Education. I will outline on behalf of the Minister how the Department and the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, continue to support children with special educational needs.

I stress that enabling students with additional needs to receive an education appropriate to their needs is an ongoing priority for this Government. It is a priority to ensure all children have an appropriate school placement and that the necessary supports are provided to our schools to cater for children with special educational needs.

In 2024, the Department will spend more than €2.7 billion on special education and further progress will be made in 2025 as an additional €159 million has been dedicated to providing supports for children with special educational needs. That is almost a €3 billion budget overall for the coming year. In fact, over a quarter of the entire education budget has been dedicated to special education in recent years. The main supports this funding provides are special classes, SNAs and special education teachers. The NCSE has advised there are 3,336 special classes in operation nationwide for this school year. These classes can provide for in excess of 21,000 students. Four hundred and nine of these are new for the current school year: 289 at primary and 120 at post-primary level.

The NCSE has responsibility for co-ordinating and advising on the education provision for children with special educational needs nationwide. Over recent years, the Department and the NCSE have introduced a number of strategic initiatives to plan for and provide sufficient mainstream, special class and special school places. These initiatives are now bearing fruit, with more than 1,300 new special classes sanctioned and seven new special schools established over the past four years. The Department engages intensively with the NCSE on forward planning for new special classes and additional special school places. This forward planning work is well under way ahead of the 2025-2026 school year. The work involves a detailed review of statistical data relating to forecasting demand for special class places, an analysis of available school accommodation, consideration of improved data-sharing arrangements and a focus on the provision of special classes at post-primary level.

Regarding the school referred to by the Deputy, I confirm that the Department received an application in 2021 under the additional schools accommodation scheme. The application was for funding for the provision of three special education classrooms. The Department’s school building technical team carried out an in-depth review of the school site in 2021. The review confirmed that the school and the site are at maximum capacity and that it would not be possible to provide the required accommodation on the site unless vast amounts of existing accommodation were to be demolished and replaced with two-storey accommodation. At that time, considering all the relevant impediments to delivering the brief of accommodation and the site constraints, the Department was not in a position to provide funding for the significant demolition of the school building. In light of this, officials in the Department contacted the NCSE to advise them of same and to establish the special classes in other schools in the area.

In January 2024, the NCSE confirmed the need for special classes in the area. The NCSE and Department are working to identify suitable locations for those classes to ensure the children who require access to this provision can avail of it as soon as possible. Separately, the board of management of the school subsequently submitted a new engineer's condition report to the Department in support of its proposal to knock and rebuild a portion of the school building. In view of the reconfirmed sanction by the NCSE, the cost of the modular for special education tuition and the engineer's condition report, the Department's technical team agreed to review the contents of the report. However, following consultation between the Department and NCSE on SEN provision in the school planning area, the NCSE is undertaking a review of the SEN provision requirements in the wider area, and this will be a key factor in the decision.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I thank the Minister of State. I was right that the script has not changed since July and, prior to that, April. The script is the same, unfortunately. The most galling thing about coming in here sometimes, particularly on a Thursday afternoon, is seeing the lack of progress. We are here seven months on and this is still with the building unit undergoing assessment. That is another year lost to kids in terms of preparing for ASD provision in September of next year. This is not an easy fix. The principal of the school will say that himself. I have been in the school a couple of times. There are severe issues with subsidence. The building is falling down. It can be seen quite plainly. The floors are collapsing.

Something to the tune of €1.3 million or €1.4 million is already allocated to remedial works in the existing school. If they were allowed to proceed with the demolition as proposed and build the new classrooms, the overall project would cost €3 to €4 million. That is not a small sum of money but we are throwing grants into a school building that is crumbling when we should take a longer term view and give them a building that is fit for use. I understand the NCSE is looking at other schools. That was stated to me in other correspondence. If you are a parent of a child in Scoil Eoin, it is clear that if your child is not in an ASD class, the only options are to wait, keep your fingers crossed and hope for an ASD class in a few years or take the child somewhere else. Unfortunately, that is the reality facing those parents. The Minister of State is only here to deliver the answer but it is very frustrating for those parents and children.

An Ceann Comhairle

Can I get a word of clarification from the Deputy or Minister of State? Were these three classes established in the school by the Department and the NCSE?

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

There was a school population already there that was in receipt of ASD provision but did not-----

An Ceann Comhairle

But they had approval to establish special classes?

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

Yes.

An Ceann Comhairle

After they were established, it was decided they needed special accommodation, which was not available, and then they decided to look elsewhere.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

There are additional classes being sought.

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not say much for the planning process, does it?

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

No.

Deputy James Lawless

It is a complex matter, as I understand, and there have been a few twists in the tale already, which is probably unfortunate. I thank the Deputy for raising the question and for his continued advocacy for Ballincollig, Cork and the wider special educational needs sector over the past four and a half years. He has been a strong advocate for them.

The Department continues to engage intensely with the NCSE in forward planning for new special classes for the 2025-2026 school year and, indeed, for future years to ensure every child has a place in an educational setting best fitting their educational need.

Planning for special classes and special school places in Cork and nationwide is under way ahead of the 2025-2026 school year. The locations of new classes for 2025-2026 will be confirmed in the coming months. The Minister, Deputy Foley, announced plans earlier this year for the roll-out of the next phase of investment in the school capital building programme. This consists of an additional €800 million to support more than 90 building projects in 2024 and 2025, including 138 additional rooms for children with special educational needs. I assure the Deputy the Department will continue to support the NCSE and schools through the provision of the necessary funding and capital investment. I will engage with the Minister following this debate and make to her directly the points the Deputy made. I am sure she will engage with him further on the matter.

School Accommodation

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Minister of State for being and for dealing with that matter. The second item I have selected is from Deputy Donnelly, who wishes to discuss the decision to relocate Ériu Community College from Hansfield to Hollywoodrath in 2028. That is a good bit of planning. We are getting in ahead of the posse there anyway.

Deputy Paul Donnelly

I thank the Ceann Comhairle. He makes a very astute comment about the Department of Education and forward planning, because that is at the heart of this. Today more than 100 parents and students took time to come to the Dáil to voice their anger and frustration at the relocation of Ériu Community College. For many of them it was the very first time they have ever been here or been at a protest. That shows how angry they are. Every so often I have submitted a parliamentary question to the Department on the subject of this school and each time the answer was that no decision had been made. Two weeks ago the Department released the news a permanent site for Ériu had been identified in Hollywoodrath. It needs to be said that the parents of Ériu students in Hansfield and I are delighted the community of Hollywoodrath, Hollystown, Tyrrelstown, Bellingsmore and the wider hinterland are getting a new post-primary school. It is absolutely necessary because there is a need for another post-primary school there. There should not be any winners and losers in this game, but unfortunately there are, because the people of Hansfield are losing. Neither the parents, the parents’ association, the school nor the board of the board of the DDLETB were consulted on this decision by the Department of Education’s forward planning section.

A letter sent to parents by the Department shows a really worrying lack of concern for students in this case:

It is acknowledged that re-locating the school may cause difficulty for some of the current school community. However, it is hoped that the impact will be reduced with careful management by the school authority. It is anticipated that the current school population will be close to completing post primary education in advance of the re-location.

What this actually means is the Department knows most of the current cohort of students are going to be sitting their leaving certificate that year or are going to be in fifth year. The Department knows they will be affected by this decision. It shows a lack of care for the students by the Department for whom it is established to provide an educational system. As I said, there has been zero consultation about this decision, which certainly was not made by people who live in Dublin 15.

I believe it is also the first time a school has ever been relocated outside its catchment area. This means future students who live in Hansfield will not be able to access it. There is only one post-primary school left in the area. The other school is outside the catchment area and is oversubscribed every single year. Hansfield has seen in excess of 3,000 homes built in the past ten years. Barnhill, which is across the railway, has a planning application for 1,000 homes. Kellystown also has a planning application for 1,000 homes. That is why I talk about the forward planning aspect of this decision. There are plans for three primary schools in the same area over the next few years and three sites have already been identified. That will bring us to six primary schools in the area and one post-primary school in Hansfield.

Hollywoodrath is 8 km away from the catchment area. If anyone knows Dublin 15, Hansfield is in the southern part of it and Hollystown is in the most northern part. It is ridiculous to think parents are going to be travelling from Hansfield to Tyrrelstown. I appreciate that is probably normal in rural areas, but it certainly is not in a very densely populated area of Dublin. It is also worth noting there is no public transport link at all between Hansfield and Tyrrelstown. There is a bridge that allows people get from Hansfield over to Hollystown, but the bridge is only one way. People cannot come back that way and must find an alternative route. There are two other bridges further away, but people cannot come back the way they came. Again, it shows a clear lack of understanding by the Department on this that it never consulted anybody in Dublin 15, not even the DDLETB and the parents’ association. The Department made this decision and it beggars belief.

Deputy James Lawless

I thank the Deputy for raising those concerns and this issue. I am glad to have the opportunity to work through the Department of Education's planning and how the model was arrived at whereby Ériu Community College will relocate from Hansfield to Hollywoodrath.

To plan for school provision and analyse the relevant demographic data, the Department divides the country into 314 school planning areas, SPAs, and uses a geographical information system, GIS, that uses data from a range of sources, including CSO census data, child benefit and school enrolment data and others to identify where the pressure for school places across the country will arise and where additional school accommodation is needed at primary and post-primary level. Major new residential developments have the potential to alter the demand for school places at a local level. In that regard, as part of the demographic demand analysis, the Department monitors planning and construction activity in the residential sector. This involves the analysis of data sources from local authorities and the CSO along with the engagement with local authorities and the construction sector. In this way, up-to-date information on significant new residential developments is obtained and factored into the demographic analysis exercise. This is necessary to ensure schools infrastructure planning is keeping pace with demographic changes at a local level where there is a constantly evolving picture with planned new residential development. Where demographic data indicates additional provision is required, the delivery of such additional provision is dependent on the particular circumstances of each case and may be provided through utilising existing unused capacity within a school or schools, extending the capacity of a school or schools, or provision of a new school or schools.

Ériu Community College was initially established in 2020 as a regional solution to serve the Blanchardstown west Dublin 15 and Blanchardstown village Dublin 15 school planning areas as a result of a countrywide demographic exercise. Blanchardstown village Dublin 15 has three post-primary schools and Blanchardstown west Dublin 15 has two post primary schools in addition to Ériu Community College, which is currently located in that SPA. It has been established there is currently a lot of movement of pupils from primary schools within SPAs to post-primary schools in other SPAs. The enrolment numbers in the Mulhuddart-Tyrrelstown Dublin 15 SPA are significantly less than the schoolgoing population, according to the 2022 census, at both primary and post-primary levels. Recent analysis has shown there is a greater current and projected future demand for additional post-primary school places in the Mulhuddart-Tyrrelstown Dublin 15 school planning area as opposed to the Blanchardstown SPAs. Only 40% of the post-primary pupils living in the Mulhuddart-Tyrrelstown SPA attend schools located in Mulhuddart-Tyrrelstown SPA, while a further 27% of these pupils attend post-primary schools located in the Blanchardstown SPAs. Over 65% of pupils living in the Blanchardstown SPAs attend schools located in the Blanchardstown SPAs.

Hansfield Educate Together Secondary School and Coláiste Pobail Setanta in the Blanchardstown west Dublin 15 SPA and Scoil Phobail Chuil Mhin, Blakestown Community School and Hartstown Community School in the Blanchardstown village Dublin 15 SPA were all established to serve their school planning areas, respectively. The Department is satisfied these schools can adequately cater for children residing in these areas. Any additional capacity needed in Blanchardstown to meet rising demand from new residential development in the area can be catered for with extensions to the existing post-primary schools. Department of Education officials are willing to have further engagement with the patron on this matter.

Deputy Paul Donnelly

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit. I noted with interest the line in the reply that states "Major new residential developments have the potential to alter the demand for school places at a local level". I find that absolutely puzzling, because I have outlined that there are major developments in planning. Kellystown has already started and the planning application for Barnhill has already gone in. The vast majority of the Hansfield SDZ has just been completed, so it is now built out. There are 3,000 units in that SDZ, of which I would say a good 2,000 have been built in the past five years. I find it absolutely puzzling, therefore, that although the Department states new developments are part of its planning, these have not been considered. It is a fact that three primary school sites have been identified at Kellystown, Barnhill and the actual site Ériu is on.

We have six primary schools in the area and one post-primary school, Hansfield Educate Together Secondary School. The other two are outside of the catchment area. I find it absolutely puzzling. Parents' other real concern is that there are going to be parents in Hansfield looking at Ériu over the next four years. Their children are in fourth, fifth and sixth class as we speak. These parents are going to say that this school is leaving and going over to the other side of Dublin 15 and ask why they should send their children to it. Even the parents of existing children may say they do not want their children to be relocated when preparing for the leaving certificate in fifth and sixth year. The entire school is in flux. The parents of that cohort of students who are going to be doing their leaving certificate in a couple of years' time, when the school is moving, do not want their children to be shifted in the middle of studying for that exam, which we all recognise as really important. There will also be parents with children in fourth, fifth and sixth class who will now be making decisions as to whether to send their children to our school. Is the Department committed to maintaining every option offered in the school as we speak? Will the school's resources be maintained? We need a meeting between the Department of Education's forward planning unit, the Department officials who made this decision, the parents' association, the Dublin and Dún Laoghaire ETB and the school's board of management. That needs to happen so that all of that information can come into play and this decision can be paused.

Deputy James Lawless

I thank the Deputy. I know what he is saying and I take careful heed of it. Perhaps such a meeting would be useful. It may be something that could be organised. I reiterate that the Minister has stated that Department of Education officials are very willing to engage with the patron on this matter. I am sure the Deputy's influence with the school carries a lot of weight. He might encourage the patron to take up that offer and to engage with the Minister and the Department, which may allow progress to be made on this issue.

School Staff

Deputy Pauline Tully

I have been contacted by the principal, staff members and parents of students at St. Mary's Boys' National School in Belturbet, County Cavan. They are reaching out to me and to other representatives in the area as they require immediate assistance with a situation in the school. It is a senior boys' school. Pupils attend from second to sixth class. The school currently has an enrolment of 77, with an increase of five this school year, eight last year and eight the year before, evidencing a rise in enrolment over the past three years.

In March of last year, the school had a projected enrolment of 78 pupils for this school year and the principal applied for a fourth mainstream class teacher for this small school. This application was successful so an excellent newly qualified teacher was recruited. She has begun the Droichead process and the pupils, staff and parents are all very happy with the situation. However, due to reasons beyond their control, some pupils who had enrolled cannot attend the school at present. The school is confident that they will attend by December of this year and feels the Department should take this into consideration. One pupil has enrolled but not yet attended the school due to medical reasons. He is receiving medical treatment abroad. His family has informed the school that he will back in Ireland in November and should be in school from then on. He was present with his peers for the second class induction day in June. That information has been provided to the Department. Two other pupils are awaiting visas. The website specified a three-month wait but that has come and gone and they are still waiting. It has been much longer than three months. They require these visas to get PPS numbers, allowing them to then enrol in the school.

The cut-off point for a fourth teacher is 78. The school has 77 pupils on the roll today and so is one pupil short of the allocation. The school was informed that it would lose the newly appointed teacher. The principal appealed this decision to the staffing appeals board but that appeal was rejected. The loss of this teacher will see average class sizes increase from 19 to 26. The increase may be bigger in some instances, depending on the class the students are in. Is the Minister going to deprive the children in this school in Belturbet of a smaller class size because the numbers state there should be one more pupil in the school, especially when it is known that there is a pupil receiving medical treatment and that there are pupils awaiting visas? These children's parents are living and working in Belturbet so they will be attending. They want to come to the school and will do so as soon as possible. The school will not have the physical capacity to fit these pupils into the classes if it is not left with its fourth teacher and is reduced to only three.

The principal and school community understand that there are rules, cut-off points and so on. If they were not aware of these three students who hope to attend the school before Christmas or if the school's enrolment trend was decreasing, they might understand this action but evidence has been provided that there are students waiting to enrol and attend,, but circumstances beyond their control are preventing them from doing so at the moment. I plead with the Minister for Education to do the right thing and to allow the school to retain the teacher it has just employed.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Lawless, for again dealing with this issue.

Deputy James Lawless

It is a busy afternoon, Ceann Comhairle. I thank Deputy Tully for raising this very important matter. I am glad to have the opportunity, on behalf of the Minister for Education, to update the House on the response.

On primary school staffing, the key factor in determining the level of staffing resources provided to an individual school is the staffing schedule for the relevant school year and pupil enrolments on the previous 30 September. The primary staffing arrangements for the 2024-25 school year are set out in Circular 11/2024. The staffing schedule operates in a clear and transparent manner and treats all similar schools equally, irrespective of location. It is an important feature of the staffing schedule that all schools are treated equally and fairly.

In the three previous successive budgets, priority has been given to improving the staffing schedule in primary schools. This has brought the teacher allocation ratio to an average of one classroom teacher for every 23 pupils in all primary schools, the most favourable ratio ever seen at primary level. A three-point reduction in the retention schedule introduced in 2021 assists schools that would otherwise be at risk of losing teaching posts. Teacher allocations were also improved for DEIS urban band 1 schools, where pupil-teacher ratios now stand at an average of 17:1, 21:1 and 19:1 for junior, senior and vertical schools respectively.

On the staffing appeals process, the staffing arrangements include an appeals mechanism allowing schools to submit a staffing appeal under certain published criteria. The appeals board works independently of the Minister and the Department and comprises four members, typically retired school principals and a retired inspector. Schools can appeal under a number of different criteria including small school appeals, exceptional accommodation difficulties and projected enrolment posts. The primary staffing appeals board meets three times per year, in March, June and October.

In some instances, the appeals board may approve posts on a provisional basis in March or June, pending confirmation that the school has achieved the required appointment or retention enrolment threshold on 30 September. In cases where schools do not meet their projected enrolment numbers, the provisional teaching posts allocated during the March appeals process are suppressed. This takes effect from the last working day in October, ensuring that staffing levels remain aligned with actual student numbers in the school.

The school referred to by the Deputy was successful in its appeal to the March meeting of the primary staffing appeals board and was informed that the post was provisional on the school achieving an enrolment of 78 on 30 September 2024. However, the school did not achieve the required enrolment and was therefore informed that the post would be suppressed at the end of October in accordance with the arrangements for provisional posts set out in the primary school staffing arrangements. The school then submitted an appeal to the October meeting of the primary staffing appeals board, requesting to retain the additional post.

Deputy Pauline Tully

I know the Minister of State is giving a reply on behalf of the Minister for Education but the reply just outlines the process, which I am aware of. The school appealed the decision and was turned down. That is what I am raising here. The appeal the school made in October was turned down last week as a result of the school being one pupil short despite it being known that there are three pupils waiting to come in. That is why I am bringing this up here. I am asking the Minister to go back to the Department, to discuss this with her officials and to relent on the decision to refuse the appeal. This young teacher is asking what she is going to do now. She is actually considering emigrating. We are going to lose another teacher. We are already some 1,000 teachers short in the primary school sector. We do not want to lose any more. It is a very harsh decision when we know there are pupils willing to come into the school once they are able. It is not that they are being kept at home.

I also want to raise my concern for students awaiting visas to get PPS numbers to enrol in schools. These children are attending from second class to sixth class so they are aged somewhere between seven and 12 or 13. These children are out of school, which is concerning. That is a wider issue that we need to address. No child, no matter what country they come here from, should be out of school for months on end.

The parents are working, living and contributing to our economy in Ireland. Will the Minister of State look at this case again?

Deputy James Lawless

I thank the Deputy. I had not been informed of the outcome of the October appeal. Deputy Tully is telling me it was also refused, is that correct?

Deputy Pauline Tully

Yes.

Deputy James Lawless

I will certainly pick that up with the Minister and have that discussion. I will make sure he is aware of it. Deputy Tully said there are three other children imminently to arrive in the school, is that correct?

Deputy Pauline Tully

Yes.

Deputy James Lawless

It is always difficult with education cases in any scenario, especially in cases when there are a set of rules and a case falls just below the line, such as in this case. I believe the numbers Deputy Tully suggested were 77 versus 78. These calls are always difficult ones. People who are on boards of appeal and hearings having to adjudicate on these cases always find themselves in a difficult situation. Often, sticking to the letter of the rules is a way to ensure transparency and consistency. I appreciate completely, however, that there may be extenuating circumstances in this case.

The Deputy made the point that there may be three additional students coming in. That is a fair point. I do not know whether that was considered in the appeal, although it would not be helpful for me to speculate whether it was. All I can do is pass those observations on to the Minister for Education. Deputy Tully might engage further in that regard after that.

Regional Development

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív wishes to discuss with the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform the need for balanced economic investment in the northern and western regions. Before he begins, there are at least two more generations of the Ó Cuív family in the Public Gallery. They are very welcome.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

There are surely. I thank the Ceann Comhairle. I thank the Minister of State for taking this Topical Issue. Anyone who goes to the north and west, which consists of Connacht and the parts of Ulster within the Republic of Ireland, is more than aware, just by driving through it, of the lack of infrastructure. In fact, there are no motorways in Cavan, Monaghan, Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim, Mayo or Roscommon. There might be a small bit of motorway in Ballinasloe that is in Roscommon, but if there is, it is very short. The reality is that the motorways in Galway consist of the one in Limerick that stops in Tuam and the one from Dublin that goes to Galway.

Grid infrastructure is totally insufficient, even though places like rural areas of Connacht are high-possibility areas for onshore wind generation. When we look under the ground, we find there is a high number of houses without any public water supply and that are dependent on wells and streams, which everyone knows are unsuitable. When we look at towns, we see they are unsewered. Many of the villages do not have any public wastewater systems and cannot expand. When we look at towns that have wastewater systems, they are totally inadequate. On and on it goes when you actually look at the reality on the ground.

I raised this issue previously in the form of parliamentary questions. I hope the same answer has not been regurgitated again, in which a small number of ongoing projects was listed, such as the Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge road project and so forth. What has not happened and what has got worse, however, is the percentage of the expenditure going to the most deprived region in terms of infrastructure, which is way beneath its population share. Looking at the figures, 9.9% of the tenders of more than €1 million under the national development plan went to the northern and western region, even though it has 17.6% of the population. This is not a depopulated area; there is quite a population in it. Looking at tenders in excess of €20 million, the percentage drops to 5.5%. I have no doubt the Department of public expenditure will point out there are some schemes and infrastructure projects that span different regions and might not be covered, such as the national broadband plan. While that is true, even if we stripped that out, there is still a total disparity. The analysis has been fairly thorough in that regard. For example, and this is something that would be dear to the Minister of State’s heart, excluding the two research centres in Galway city, there are no other research centres from Letterkenny to east Cavan and from east Cavan all the way down to Galway. What we need, therefore, is a reversal.

In the 2000s, when we started constructing motorways, I raised a valid question about the need for infrastructure in the west and how the motorways were going to the south, the south west and to Galway but there was very little going to be constructed in that arc which constitutes the western and northern region. I was promised, and it was in Transport 21, that the next iteration would make up for that. This disparity has continued, however.

It seems to me that, when things are done on a cost-benefit analysis, which is the way they are done and which is false, it will always be skewed to where the maximum number of people are. This, therefore, creates problems of overpopulation in some areas and total depopulation in areas that could do with the population and which have the schools, the social infrastructure, the sports facilities, the health centres and whatever else. They could actually do with the population. We are exacerbating our problems by not having balanced regional development.

Every document that comes out now mentions balanced regional development. Despite this, an answer to a parliamentary question I submitted on this matter said that these decisions lie with each line Minister. I would have thought that the delivery of national development plan projects would have an overarching requirement by the Department of national development plan delivery ensuring there was balanced regional development in the round.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is one now for the Minister of State.

Deputy James Lawless

Yes. The best was saved to last. I thank Deputy Ó Cuív. Before I respond, I pay tribute to him and welcome his family. I have just been informed they are in the Public Gallery. I do not know whether he will have an opportunity to contribute again in this House in the coming weeks. Knowing him, I am sure he will find a couple more opportunities. I wish to put on record his significant contribution to this House, the nation, this Republic and to the party in which I am privileged to serve alongside him. Since I started working with him, he has always been a source of knowledge, experience and, most importantly, wisdom. I thank him for the time he made available. It certainly benefited my career and my understanding of many complex issues. I thank him for that on the public record.

To take up the point he raised, I know this is a topic close to his heart and he has often spoken on these matters. Balanced regional development is a key priority of the Government and is at the heart of Project Ireland 2040. This strategic plan includes the national planning framework, NPF, which sets the overarching spatial strategy for the next 20 years, along with the revised national development plan 2021-2030, which was published in October 2021. The Minister for Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform is responsible for setting the overall capital allocations across Departments and for monitoring monthly expenditure at departmental level. His Department is also responsible for maintaining the national frameworks within which Departments operate to ensure appropriate accounting for and value for money in public expenditure.

The responsibility for the management and delivery of individual investment projects or sectoral policy strategies within the allocations agreed under the national development plan and in line with the national frameworks rests with the individual sponsoring Department in each case. The Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform therefore allocates expenditure on a departmental basis rather than a geographic basis as per the requests from individual Departments for spending within their remits.

The Government committed €165 billion towards capital investment through the NDP published in 2021. An additional €2.25 billion of windfall corporate tax receipts has also been pledged and allocated from 2024 to 2026 to provide funding for critical infrastructure projects that are at an advanced stage as well as to the existing climate action fund. This builds on the existing funding already available under the NDP out to 2026, and it will mean more schools, housing, transport and healthcare projects can be progressed and delivered for our people across all regions, including in the northern and western region.

The three regional assemblies, including the Northern and Western Regional Assembly, are responsible for co-ordinating, promoting and supporting the strategic planning and sustainable development of their regions by formulating regional spatial and economic strategies, RSES. Investment decisions made by Departments are informed by those strategies.

In 2025, almost €15 billion will be made available from the Exchequer for investment in public capital projects, which will provide more schools, homes, hospitals and other pieces of vital infrastructure. This level of expenditure will be pivotal in consolidating the progress already made, supporting balanced regional development and, most importantly, delivering the necessary infrastructure to support our future climate change obligations as well as our social and economic requirements.

The Government is continuing to deliver and improve infrastructure in the northern and western region in areas such as transport, broadband connectivity, housing and energy. These investments in public infrastructure projects will in turn have a positive effect in delivering employment opportunities and further investment by the private sector so that it becomes a repeating circle.

Examples of progress on delivery in the northern and western regions include better educational facilities - for example, the Holy Family Special School, in Cootehill, Cavan, and Gairmscoil Mhuire, in Athenry, County Galway; more social housing - for example, 74 social housing units in Ballyburke, County Galway, as part of the PPP social housing bundle, and 73 social housing units in the Ursuline convent, Sligo; better transport links, including upgrades on the N4 from Collooney to Castlebaldwin, the N5 from Westport to Turlough, the N56 from Mountcharles to Inver road, and the N59 Moycullen bypass, all projects which will save lives and boost competitiveness as well as providing for smoother journeys in every sense, while being regionally balanced and in line with Project Ireland 2040; better health facilities, including a radiation oncology unit at University Hospital Galway, a residential care centre at Dungloe Community Hospital and a primary care centre in Monaghan town; high-quality cultural and sporting amenities, such as the new libraries in Virginia, County Cavan, and Monaghan town; and hundreds of projects across the rural and urban regeneration and disruptive technologies funds.

I have a long list but I think the Deputy gets the idea that there are many projects under way in the region

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

God forbid the day anyone would ask for the same list for the eastern region. We would be here for a week. The reality is 9.9%. That is what the Minister of State read out. Where is the missing 9%? We always get small projects, but big things are needed. Taking projects in excess of €20 million, we are missing 12%. The population of the region is 17% and we have only 5% of the investment, so we would nearly need to treble the input of projects. Looking at rail investment, for example, despite the fact that there was a commitment in Transport 21 and a Government decision - I checked this - made in the 2000s to extend the railway line to Tuam and to Claremorris, it has not happened yet. As I pointed out, many houses in the west of Ireland do not have a public water supply. There are a whole lot of complications that arise from that situation, so we need rebalancing of the infrastructure spend.

It seems to me absolutely extraordinary that there is this mantra of balanced regional development again and again, but then we just leave it to the Departments and away they go and they do not answer to anybody for balanced regional development. That is just what it is - a mantra that does not have any meaning. When you challenge that mantra with hard figures, all you get is the Department coming back regurgitating a reply it gave in the Dáil to me. It is the same answer and the same litany and does not address the issue. I am not blaming the Minister of State individually for coming in here with a script given by the Department, but it is time we got balanced regional development. To be quite honest, it would take a lot of pressure off the east coast of this country if we had balanced regional development. As somebody who has spent quite a considerable time in my life in the development role, developing industry, social services and so forth on the ground, the reality was that the biggest inhibitor was a lack of basic infrastructure.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I beg the tolerance of the Ceann Comhairle. I started off when it took me a year and a half to get one telephone line. In certain ways, relatively speaking, we have not progressed since.

Deputy James Lawless

I note everything the Deputy says in his very strong contribution. I reiterate that the goal and one of the core objectives of Project Ireland 2040 is strengthening rural economies and rural communities. Building up and improving services for the population requires significant investment in infrastructure, now and into the future. That is undoubted. Prioritising key social and economic investment has been a critical component for the Government in supporting Ireland's growth and in delivering better, fit-for-purpose public services. Through the record investment of €165 billion set out in the NDP, along with additional capital, as I mentioned, from windfall receipts, the Government has demonstrated its commitment to increased infrastructural spend and investment right across the country. Total capital investment in 2025 will be almost €15 billion, the highest annual spend to date. The Government is investing sums well above the EU norms in the current and future years of the NDP. I appreciate the Deputy's point that those should be better spread across the regions and that there should be an allocation above 9%, as he says, for the western region. The Departments have choices to make in terms of spending, and there are a number of criteria that they assess those on. Perhaps that should form part of that matrix in future. I hear the point he makes there.

The Deputy will be pleased to note that I have another list of projects. I will cite just one from my Department, the opening of the upgraded N56 Dungloe to Glenties road in April of this year with a sum of €100 million. That was a very significant commitment of intent and money well spent on that road, which I hope-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

We got that into Transport 2020 way back in the day, and by dad it was needed, and a lot more to go with it.

Deputy James Lawless

Well, the fact it has actually happened is very welcome. I hear the points the Deputy makes. The Government will continue to make efforts to boost NDP delivery and to strive towards regional development.

Primary Care Centres

Deputy Dessie Ellis

The Government's plan to roll out primary care centres across the country is a necessity. With regard to an area in my constituency of Dublin North-West that encompasses Santry, Whitehall and Beaumont, which would be regarded as an area of high density when it comes to population and which is constantly growing, there are plans to provide a number of essential health services for the area. The demographics are mixed. There is a substantial number of elderly people living in these areas as many of the estates were built in the fifties, sixties and seventies. Their families have grown up and moved away but the parents have remained. I have found in my work across the constituency that many of these older estates house elderly residents. As people get older, they will require additional medical supports. That can include, for example, chiropody, physiotherapy, older people's services, audiology services, occupational therapy and so on. There has been a massive building programme across Santry, Whitehall and Beaumont. Large apartment blocks have been built, for example, on the site of the famous old Swiss Cottage public house, across the road in the industrial estate and in the Shanowen industrial estate. There is a big development proposed for the site known as the Nuns' Field in Whitehall. Northwood in Santry has had thousands of units built, with more planned to be built in the future. As regards the Oscar Traynor site, 853 houses are being built adjacent to Beaumont at the moment. There are many more building projects being completed and populated or proposed to be built on in the near future.

This brings a different demographic with different medical requirements to these areas. A great number of people buying or renting these new accommodations will be mainly younger people with young families. Families with young children will require specific child health services such as social work and child protection services, speech and language therapy, newborn and child health screening programmes, health and development checks for young children and so on. Both elderly residents and families with young children will require proper GP services, and it is particularly important to have these. Other areas of Dublin North-West have suffered from a severe lack of GP services, and that is no different in Santry and Whitehall.

In response to my most recent question on a primary care health centre for these areas, the HSE outlined a number of services it intends to provide for the area, which includes the following: public health nursing, community medical services, speech and language therapy, physiotherapy, occupational therapy, and psychology and social work services for the Larkhill primary care team catchment area. Also included will be a cardiac rehab gym, clinical rooms, community diagnostics, podiatry and wound treatment, a primary care gym and a pulmonary rehab gym. I welcome all these proposed services and facilities that will be available in the near future. The HSE has suggested that a number of these services will be available in quarter 4 of this year.

I am concerned, however, that the HSE has decided to enter into a leasing agreement with the Omni Shopping Centre for use of space in the centre for these services and facilities. It was always my belief that a dedicated primary care centre would be built in the area to accommodate such services and facilities. Residents have raised concerns with me that the HSE has not considered a more permanent stand-alone primary care centre as an option.

Deputy James Lawless

I thank Deputy Ellis for his question. I am glad to have the opportunity to update the House on this matter.

A central objective of the programme for Government is to deliver increased levels of integrated healthcare, with service delivery reoriented towards general practice, primary care and community-based services to enable a home first approach. Integral to this is the development of primary care centres and integrated care hubs across the country in our local communities. Significant progress has been made in the delivery of primary care centres, with 175 opened to date and a further nine under construction. Primary care centres offer a tangible example of the investment this Government is making in community-based health infrastructure.

Aligned with Sláintecare objectives, the HSE's enhanced community care programme is securing a lease in Omni Shopping Centre for integrated community specialist teams, CSTs, managing chronic disease and older persons. These CSTs enable the redesign of care pathways, making care more accessible within the community for those with a chronic disease and older persons. The Larkhill primary care team will also be based in this location.

This specialist hub will develop pathways and provide integrated consultant-led healthcare services, aligned to Beaumont Hospital, for people with complex health and social care needs, older persons, and those with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, COPD, adult asthma, cardiovascular disease and type-2 diabetes. Co-located with these CST services will be local primary care team services. These services, currently provided from Larkhill Health Centre, will also operate from the site and will include public health nursing, community medical service, speech and language therapy, physiotherapy, occupational therapy, psychology and social work services for the Larkhill primary care team catchment area.

Work on the delivery of the clinical space on the first floor is due to be completed in the final months of this year. When completed, the space will provide an additional 36 clinical spaces, including a cardiac rehab gym, clinical rooms, community diagnostics, podiatry and wound treatment, a primary care gym, and a pulmonary rehab gym. Dental services will continue to be provided from Larkhill Health Centre.

The Minister welcomes the progress made on the development of the integrated care hub at Omni Shopping Centre and the alignment of primary care and community specialist services in a shared clinical space to better enable truly integrated care delivery in our local communities. I hope that is good news for the Deputy. It sounds like a very comprehensive suite of services is about to be provided. I hope that answers the Deputy's queries.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

There is no doubt that these services are urgently needed. We welcome them, as do the residents. We have raised this matter over so many years and, at last, we are making serious progress. For how long does the HSE propose to lease the space in Omni Shopping Centre? I am curious to know the costs of both the rent and fitting out of the property. Do we have a timescale for when the centre will open fully? Will recruitment be a problem? I notice that no GP services are to be included. It is disappointing that they are not.

The issue for me and the residents is that we are renting instead of establishing a dedicated centre. By having a dedicated centre, we could expand services later, if needed. I am not saying what is being done is a waste of public money, because we are getting services we need, but there was a better way to proceed.

I am glad we are keeping the orthodontic centre in Larkhill and that it will be continually manned. It is needed there and is very important. Once again, there is plenty of land available from the local authorities. There are lands right across the area that are owned by the local authorities. I do not know why we did not consider options other than leasing. That is my complaint, in addition to the lack of GP services. However, we certainly welcome the announcement.

Deputy James Lawless

It is very welcome, indeed. I note the Deputy's comments. The Minister also very much welcomes the development of the integrated care hub in Omni Shopping Centre and the co-location of the consultant-led services, provided for the enhanced community care specialist teams for people with chronic disease and older persons, and the primary care services provided by Larkhill primary care team. The services are anticipated to provide facilities for the Santry, Beaumont and Whitehall areas, which the Deputy asked about. I hope things are well matched.

It is also welcome news that work on the delivery of the clinical space on the first floor is due to be completed before the end of this year. The Deputy asked about the timing. When fully operational, the integrated care hub will provide modern, fit-for-purpose clinical space for both the primary and community specialist teams. Bringing all the services together on a single site means patients no longer have to travel to different places to access various services. The community-based teams provide end-to-end pathways of care for patients, with greater levels of care delivered and fully managed within the community setting away from acute hospitals. A single integrated care hub also creates invaluable opportunities for professionals across disciplines to work together, share knowledge and learn from one another's experiences. The Minister assures the Deputy that the Government remains committed to the continued development of primary care infrastructure throughout the country, including in north Dublin.

Bus Services

Deputy Gary Gannon

I wish to raise with the Minister of State the issue of the No. 11 bus, but not so much its future because that is starting to look very unlikely under the current plans. I am conscious that this is not the first time the No. 11 bus has been raised with the Minister of State in the Chamber. I was present last week when his party colleague Deputy McAuliffe raised it. I was a little surprised to hear the Minister of State's response to the Deputy and me on that occasion. He said that it was time people started talking up the BusConnects scheme. There are many positives to BusConnects. As a whole, it has the potential to greatly benefit the city and other areas of the country where it will make a difference. However, I find it very difficult to talk up the power of a bus service to a community such as that in Drumcondra or Wadelai Park because there will be a downgrading in those areas.

The service has existed for decades. The types of people who have been raising the matter with me and, I am sure, Deputy McAuliffe and others will see a service reduction. A route that ran all the way down from the airport and across the city will be cut, meaning the affected communities will have to disembark and Parnell Square. If they wish to cross the city for any reason, they will have to get onto a separate bus. That is no issue for me or anybody with health like mine but it is a daunting prospect for a person with a disability, a mother with a pram or an older person who relies on the bus for his or her very independence. I do not want to overegg the pudding but the service loss will have an impact on the very means by which people get around the city. That is the very real outcome of what we are doing.

It is not just me raising this. Several petition documents have been circulated by residents and there are close to 2,000 signatures at this point. It is an issue of genuine concern. I find it difficult to talk up a service on a doorstep when an old person tells me he or she will no longer be able to meet his or her sister over in Bewley's. I find it even more difficult when people tell me that their ability to bring their children by bus to a service on the south side of the city, which they must do because of the absence of care provision, is going to be affected.

There are very many pluses to BusConnects, but let us leave those aside. The service on the arterial route in question is being downgraded to the extent that I am now dealing with people who will not be on buses and will be forced to drive into the city. That is not what the Minister of State and I want, although there are Members in the House who would disagree with my position on the service. If the goal of BusConnects is to get more people onto buses but the outcome is the removal of a service from a vulnerable cohort, it is surely okay to say that, for a brief period, until we have a better plan that does not impact the quality of service offered to the cohort, we should put our plans on hold or extend the service to the south side. The existing service is to cease in November. I am very concerned about the impact of this on the quality of life of people with vulnerabilities or those whose health is worse than my own.

Our goal and that of everyone who has been commenting on this issue is the same. We do not need to plough on regardless. It is now time to step back a little and say we will not so much go back to the drawing board as offer a better alternative to those who are contacting all our offices, including, I am sure, that of the Minister of State.

I look forward to his response and will reply as such.

Deputy James Lawless

I thank the Deputy. When I saw this Topical Issue selected, I was reminded of my colleague, Deputy Paul McAuliffe, who raised this issue under Questions on Promised Legislation last week, and I answered. To put in context that exchange, I absolutely recognise the legitimacy of the concerns around the No. 11 bus, and I have spoken with Deputy McAuliffe on it since then as well. It is a very serious matter if a bus that serves a particular population and community, with particular habits and practice formed around it, is then threatened or restructured in such a way that it no longer serves the needs of that community. I am not necessarily saying that is the case but I hear the concerns that it may be, and it is something that needs to be examined.

On the wider issue of BusConnects, I have met with a number of stakeholders in the last week, including the Dublin Commuter Coalition, who are very passionate and really want to see BusConnects driving forward and moving to the next stage. We have not yet realised the ambition that the BusConnects programme contains. We have 12 spines across the city but we have only really got to slightly more than half of those to date. We have had the pay but now we need to get the gain. What I mean by that is we need to start realising the benefits. It is really only when the BusConnects programme is actually up and running across the city, with all the spines and spokes running frequently, reliably and being enabled, that we will begin to really see the synergies that programme contains. That is the position; that is the ambition, vision, hope and expectation that I have for that programme. I very much hope I am right on that because we do need to start realising those benefits.

On the specific situation, I will clarify that my Department has responsibility for policy and overall funding for public transport but none of my Department, my officials or I are involved in the day-to-day operation of public transport services. In fact, statutory responsibility for that is devolved to the NTA, as the Deputy will probably be aware. It works with the public transport operators, who deliver the services and have responsibility for day-to-day operational matters. That comes under the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008, which empowered the NTA with statutory responsibility for promoting the development of an integrated, accessible public transport network and accessible transport infrastructure. The NTA then works with the relevant public transport operators to progressively make public transport accessible for everyone, including people with disabilities and older persons. I think the Deputy mentioned older persons in his query with reference to the No. 11 route.

The Government is strongly committed to providing all citizens with reliable and realistic sustainable mobility options, and public transport obviously plays a huge role in that. Towards this objective, in budget 2025, we have secured an indicative funding package of €652 million. My Department secured that in the budget negotiations to fund PSO and Local Link services for next year. That is a very significant commitment to public transport. We are voting with our feet with respect to pledging those moneys and making sure they are provided so these services can continue. That also includes funding to support fare initiatives and for the continued roll-out of new services, including the continuation of the BusConnects and Connecting Ireland programmes.

Jumping to the No. 11 bus, which I know is at the heart of the Deputy's question, the decision to replace the northern part of this route with the new route 19 forms part of the BusConnects network redesign, which is aimed at enhancing the entire public transport network in Dublin. Under this redesign, route 19 will connect Dublin Airport and Parnell Square via Ballymun, Wadelai Park, Home Farm Road and Drumcondra. The route will run every 20 minutes, significantly improving upon the initially proposed hourly service and will have increased capacity at peak times. This change addresses concerns about service frequency and connectivity, providing better links, especially to Dublin Airport. The service will provide new direct connections to Dublin Airport, benefiting both airport workers and travellers. The southside route 11 will remain unchanged from Sandyford to Parnell Square, where it will now divert to run via Phibsborough and North Circular Road to the Phoenix Park.

I acknowledge the concerns raised by the Deputy about these changes - as I acknowledge the concerns raised by Deputy Paul McAuliffe last week - particularly with regard to how they may impact on elderly residents and students. We understand the importance of maintaining connectivity for all users, and I assure the Deputy in the House that the NTA is working closely with operators to address any service or connectivity issues arising from the roll-out of BusConnects. I also understand that the NTA undertakes extensive public engagement prior to the introduction of any service changes.

As noted earlier, the frequency and capacity will be improved, up to ten minutes at peak times on the busiest sections. Although route 19 will not extend past Parnell Square, passengers can interchange with other bus services at nearby stops and with the Luas at Parnell Street and Dominick Street.

Deputy Gary Gannon

What I am going to say is not targeted at the Minister of State directly or individually. The next comment is not for him. There is a massive arrogance to just ploughing on regardless here. I have had it from the NTA, and I have had it from any sort ministerial intervention we have called for. Though I appreciate there are statutory limitations, we do know that there have been changes in the past that came from a groundswell of public opinion. I have also had it from other people in some of the coalitions the Minister of State mentioned.

There are one or two problems but the main one - while I am standing in Parliament talking about a bus route, which is not what any of us wants to be doing - is the fact that this bus route is going to stop at Parnell Square. It is going to limit and impact people who are most vulnerable in terms of how they engage with the city. That is all we are asking for - some solution or some kind of delay until that solution is provided. On the idea that the frequency is going to be increased, that is fantastic but again, if you are a person who has any of the complexities I have just outlined such as a mother with a pram, a person with an additional needs or an older person, the idea of getting onto that bus in Drumcondra, which is often crowded, getting off at Parnell Square, which is always crowded, walking 100 m up the road to get into the same situation again to go two miles up the road to get off is a disincentive for people to use that bus.

We have seen it previously. We have seen the 123, which was supposed to be removed, being kept because of a groundswell of public opinion and the NTA changed its mind. At this moment, we need a political intervention here to engage with the NTA. This is genuinely going to impact the residents I represent as they engage with the city. It is going to impact Deputy McAuliffe's constituents and Deputy Shortall's constituents. This is not something people are taking lightly. We have to be able to get around the city centre safely. I want more people on buses. I do not want my city clogged up with cars but I cannot legitimately say to people that this plan is grand and to head on as they are, as I can hop off and on and they cannot. To bring a degree of fairness and a modicum of sense to this, we should not just plough through changes to the infrastructure of this city in a manner that is simply not just. I ask the Minister of State, in his capacity and the role he has, to maybe engage with the NTA and simply tell it to hold on for a moment.

Deputy James Lawless

I thank the Deputy. I fully recognise the points he is making and understand them. It is absolutely key, and I am someone who, throughout my career, has been committed to optimising the use of public transport and maximising the take-up of it. It is actually quite a simple formula to make that happen but it is a formula we have to deliver. It has to be affordable and at a reasonable price. We have done that with the PSO, the fare cuts and the young adult or student discounts etc. It has to be efficient. It has to be reliable and it has to turn up in the first place, turn up on time and meet the schedule, and it has to go where people need to go. It is that fourth limb that the Deputy is querying in this instance with respect to route selection.

As I have said, there are limitations to what any Minister can do under statute, the NTA regulations and so forth but I invite the Deputy and Deputy McAuliffe to engage with me in my office. I can see if a representation can be made to the NTA as to whether there can be a way through. I sympathise, and I am also aware of other routes, not least Confey and Leixlip in my own constituency, where there are similar eventualities occurring. A route that used to come down Captain's Hill and into town now involves a connection at the bottom of the road. They may seem like small issues but they are big issues to people who use the bus on a regular basis, particularly elderly people and people who rely on those services to get to town, to medical appointments, to meet family as the Deputy alluded to, and many other reasons. We need to make sure the service works for the people who ultimately need it.