Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Nov 2024

Vol. 1061 No. 2

Houses of the Oireachtas Commission (Amendment) Bill 2024: Second Stage

Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform (Deputy Paschal Donohoe)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The Houses of the Oireachtas Commission came into existence on 1 January 2004 under the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission Act 2003. The founding commission legislation had two principal consequences. First, the commission became the sanctioning authority for expenditure, for deciding on staff numbers up to the grade of principal officer and for the provision of services and related matters to the Oireachtas. Second, the system for the allocation of budgets to the Oireachtas changed from the annual Civil Service Estimates and Vote procedure to a different process involving a three-year budget drawn from the Central Fund. The new budget is set every three years following engagement and negotiations with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform. The budget is approved at political level by the commission and by Government and Cabinet, and the amending legislation is passed by both Houses.

Under the terms of the inaugural Act, a three-year budget covering the period 2004 to 2006 was provided. Further Acts were enacted in 2006, 2009, 2012, 2015, 2018 and 2021, also providing for a three-year budget for the relevant periods. A new Houses of the Oireachtas Commission Act is now required as a matter of priority as the financing provided under the 2021 Act will expire on 31 December. If this Bill is not enacted by the end of the year, there will be no statutory basis for any payments by the Oireachtas from 1 January 2025. That would mean there would be no authority for the payment of salaries of Members of both Houses, no authority for salaries for our support staff, no authority for the salaries of the permanent employees of the Houses and no authority for the payment of any service, contractual, obligatory or otherwise, in the service of our parliamentary system.

As Deputies will be aware, the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission oversees the provision of services to the Houses and their Members by the commission Act. The primary functions are to provide for the running of the Houses of the Oireachtas to act as governing body of the service, to consider and determine policy in relation to the service and to oversee the implementation of that policy by the Secretary General. The commission is not responsible for the day-to-day management of the Houses. The Secretary General has overall responsibility for these functions. The commission does not set the level of remuneration payable to TDs and Senators. Responsibility for salaries, pensions and allowances is conferred on me in my role as the Minister for public expenditure. The commission is, however, accountable to the Parliament and presents annual reports on its work to both Houses together with Estimates and accounts of its annual expenditure.

I acknowledge the valuable role played by secretarial, parliamentary and administrative assistants in supporting Members and delivering a high-quality service to the Oireachtas. As a Member of the Oireachtas for over 13 years, I am acutely conscious of the high-calibre work that all of our staff do. We are dependent on them and grateful for their work, and I am confident that I speak for all of us when I say that. In this context, I note that the scheme for secretarial assistants is the mechanism under which secretarial assistants and others are engaged. Under the scheme, the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission has the power to regulate the provision of secretarial facilities to Members and qualifying parties. Secretarial assistants, administrative assistants, parliamentary assistants, administrators and chefs de cabinet are employed by Members and by qualifying parties but are paid by the commission. The commission also regulates the number of staff employed under the scheme and has oversight of the operation of the scheme.

Under the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission Act 2003, the commission must obtain the consent of the Minister for public expenditure before reaching an agreement with any person in respect of pay, conditions of employment or superannuation rights. This means that the commission advises on matters and submits proposals to me, as the relevant Minister, for approval. In that regard, I was happy to be able to agree to proposals to settle a pay claim in 2022 that included a regrading of all secretarial assistants to administrative assistants and the realignment of scheme pay scales under the terms of Building Momentum. The terms of the agreement have been implemented by the Houses of the Oireachtas service. I am glad that difficulties with recruitment and retention appear to have eased since the implementation of the agreement.

The Houses of the Oireachtas Service is the public service body which administers the Houses of the Oireachtas on behalf of the commission as the governing authority. The functions of the service are set out in legislation and can be broadly summarised as the provision of professional advice and support to the commission, the Houses and their committees. We need a modern, fit-for-purpose, well-resourced parliamentary system. I believe the allocation provided for in this legislation, €565 million between 1 January 2025 and 31 December 2027, will meet that aim.

My objective is to strike the right balance between sufficient and appropriate funding and showing by example in the management of this money our commitment to value for money. The funding envelope and the scale of the increase are broadly in line with the parameters agreed by the Government in the context of the budget. This figure comprises €205 million in 2025, with a balance of €360 million between 2026 and 2027. This is an increase of €102.25 million or 22.1% over a three-year period. Within the overall envelope, pay and pensions comprise €406.6 million, or 72% of the overall budget allocation. Members' allowances amount to €32.9 million. Non-pay expenditure comprises €125.5 million or 22% of the overall budget allocation.

With respect to pay, a key driver of expenditure relates to the prospective increase in the size of the Dáil. The next Dáil will see 174 Deputies representing 43 Dáil constituencies, an increase of 14 from the current 160 representing 39 constituencies. This will have impacts in a number of other areas. For example, these Deputies will be entitled to allowances already in place. However, it is important to clarify that the allocation provided for the period of this Bill makes no provision for general increases in the rates associated with existing allowances.

In order to safeguard Members and support the democratic process, in April I introduced an allowance in respect of security measures. The value and nature of the allowance was 50% or €5,000, whichever is the lesser, on a vouched basis. Following lower-than-expected take up, the Members' service of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission has provided a revised proposal which I am currently reviewing. Any potential increase would need to be funded from the overall allocation proposed in this Bill. However, it is vital that we take reasonable steps to ensure that Members can safely go about their parliamentary business. I take this matter very much to heart and I will do what I can to assure Members that I will support them in the discharge of their parliamentary duties.

Another key driver of the increased spending relates to the implementation of the Oireachtas ICT strategy. This is to provide for new initiatives and emerging requirements such as cybersecurity and artificial intelligence, Al. We cannot in any sphere of public business afford to be complacent about the security of our digital work in this Parliament. There are bad actors out there who seek to discredit our parliamentary democracy. We must not let our Parliament fall behind in the use and understanding of Al. The proposed allocation will contribute to the replacement of two legacy systems across both the corporate services area and the procedural area.

Further contributory factors leading to the increase include costs associated with the forthcoming election and our forthcoming EU Presidency. We have a proud parliamentary tradition. A portion of the extra funding has been provided to support the ongoing work of parliamentary reform, for example with regard to Oireachtas committees.

In conclusion, the Bill has two key sections. There is only one substantive amendment to the Bill. Section 1 amends section 5 of the principal Act to provide funding for expenditure incurred by the commission from 1 January 2025 for three years. The amount of that funding is €565 million. Section 2 is a standard-form provision and sets out the Short Title, collective citation and a commencement date for the Bill.

This Bill provides for the proper and appropriate resourcing of our Parliament for our work. It seeks to get the right balance between adequately funding the Oireachtas and value for money. The work of the two Houses of the Oireachtas is central to the political and democratic development of our State and nation. I believe our future prosperity and welfare will make great demands on both the Dáil and the Seanad. We must equip ourselves for the mission entrusted to us by the Constitution and by the people.

I therefore commend this Bill to the House.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

As the Minister said, this is largely a technical Bill providing for a three-year funding cycle that allows for the commission to fund the pay and pensions of elected Members of the House and their staff and other workings of the Oireachtas. I understand the urgency of that. I take this opportunity to pay tribute and to thank the staff here in the Houses of the Oireachtas. We all know this place simply would not work without them. The exceptional nature of the work that is done here gives us pause to consider how inoperable this House would be but for the good work that is done, as well as the fair and unbiased way in which that work is done. I thank the staff. Many times I have sought assistance from committee staff and others who do a phenomenal job, often under pressure and in hours that certainly are not social. I acknowledge the co-ordination of the committees and the witnesses and all of the meetings that take place here and the due diligence taken around that.

I also acknowledge how important the ICT security is in a building like this. As we are faced with ever more challenges around ICT security, it is important that we have foresight in that. As the Minister said, with the developments of AI and all of the other challenges it is important that we are on top of that and that things are continuously reviewed to ensure we withstand those challenges.

People want to know that we are getting value for the money that is provided. In terms of undertaking constituency work and representing the people of Mayo, I have used the parliamentary questions function almost on a daily basis, so I thank the staff who co-ordinate that function. I note that the audited accounts of the commission in the most recent annual report show the cost of running the Houses came in under budget. Thankfully, I have not had cause to seek support regarding personal safety and security here but I know this is also a key function undertaken by the commission. I commend the efforts taken to keep those in politics safe, particularly women, in order to encourage other women and other people to join the Oireachtas.

I commend everybody who is going forward for election. It is important however, that no matter where people work, in whatever part of society, that they are safe where they work, not just in the Oireachtas but in retail and everything else. We have spoken many times here about resourcing An Garda Síochána and what needs to be done there.

Since part of this Bill relates to the salaries of parliamentarians I would like to clarify that Sinn Féin's support for the Bill in no way constrains the next Government from reducing elected representatives' salaries. On that subject, as part of our alternative budget proposition under a Sinn Féin Government, the salary of the Taoiseach would be cut by €65,000. We would also reduce by 50% the salary top-ups to the Tánaiste, Cabinet Ministers and Ministers of State.

I have not much more to say on the Bill other than we absolutely need to get value for money. We all know that. I am sure there are workers within the Oireachtas here who were as appalled as I was about the bike shelter built out the back for €336,000. We must have the correct controls in place and continuous evaluation of all this. We have to ensure that hard-earned taxpayers' money does not continue to be wasted.

I commend the staff here in the Oireachtas on the value for money they provide to the people of this country.

Deputy Sean Sherlock

I support the Bill and recognise the need for the additional expenditure for the next three years, partly to reflect the increase in numbers here and the attendant costs that go with that. In what is possibly my last intervention in the House before I depart, I am glad to say that I was for a short time a member of the commission. I was grateful for the opportunity to see the inner workings.

It is important to express our gratitude to the staff of these Houses of the Oireachtas. I feel that every staff member is motivated by a sense of public service and a deep sense of the institution that they are serving and the importance of that institution to the functioning of this democracy, which we do not take for granted in these times we live in.

I personally want to express my gratitude to everybody I have met throughout these 17-odd years for the wonderful service they have given to me, the courtesy and kindness. I will take it with me in my next step.

If I was to make a few short observations about the role of the commission, I respectfully suggest membership should be more reflective of the disparate political groupings here at present. Individual political parties in particular should not have to horse trade with each other for parcels of time spent on the commission. I also believe into the future there may be a role for ensuring how the commission works is communicated to each individual Member after each commission meeting. Unless someone is a member of the commission and, dare I say, experienced and well versed in the ways of this House, most Members possibly do not know exactly what the commission does. Up to this year, it had funding of €460 million and that will increase to €565 million. There is a role for increasing the manner in which the commission communicates to all Members of this House. Perhaps that could be taken on board.

There has been a dramatic increase in the number of staff employed by the House. I have not seen a commensurate increase in the number of staff employed by individual Members. For instance, the allocation to individual TDs has stayed finite, similarly to Members of the Seanad. The workload of individual TDs - I can only speak for TDs - has increased dramatically in the past number of years but the allocation of staff members per TD has not. If the role of the commission is to serve the democratic function and serve the people who interface with this House, given the massive workloads TDs now have, there is a case to be made for rebalancing the staffing arrangements more in favour of those people who actually serve the public and to strike a balance in a way that is reflective of the workload of individual TDs. That could be looked at.

I again thank the wonderful staff of this institution for their assistance and advice. They fed and watered me and gave me guidance. I am very grateful for that and for the professionalism of the staff who come into these Houses every day and assist us in our work. It is meaningful work. It is really appreciated. While I have these last few minutes, if I may, I thank the people of Cork East for the wonderful past four mandates they gave me. It has been the privilege of my life to have served in these Houses. One is sad to leave but one is hopeful that one has left a legacy of hard work and a dedication and respect for this institution, its rules and procedures. It is an important place. In these times when the political discourse has become diminished and sometimes degraded, it is important that we have an institution that serves the democratic function well for the vast majority of society who want to see these Houses of the Oireachtas function well and see their parliamentarians behave in a way that is decorous and in a way that is reflective of their expectations when they elect us. I again thank the people of Cork East for this incredible privilege, my family, friends, the people who campaigned for me down through the years and the people who worked with me in our office in Mallow. It has been an incredible privilege and I thank them.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Seán Canney)

On behalf of the House, I wish you the best of luck and health in your next steps. I call Deputy Phelan. He has three and a half minutes.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

I thank the Chair. With his indulgence, I might have a little bit more than three and a half minutes. Like the previous speaker, this will be my last opportunity to speak after 22 and a half years as Member of one of the Houses of the Oireachtas. I have no issue with the legislation in question. It is largely to do with ensuring the Oireachtas commission can function in the next three years in particular. I also pay tribute to the people who work in the Oireachtas, who have, as Deputy Sherlock said, fed, watered and supported us and gave us all sorts of advice over my time as a Member. Fantastic people work here, whether the secretariat of the committees, the cleaners - I used to have great gas with them when I was a younger, eager Member of the Oireachtas and came very early to my office and meet people you do not normally see during the working day. There are also the security, the ushers and people in the bars and restaurants who keep us on the straight and narrow as well. I also thank those who worked with me in my offices over the past 22 and a half years. My secretary, Frances, is in the Gallery. She joined me when Senators were first allowed to have people work in their constituency almost 20 years ago. I thank her, Pat Dunphy and Mary Ronan who was with me from the very start too, who have been in my office. I have been lucky to have them.

I agree with Deputy Sherlock in that perhaps now it is time to look at the workload of Members of the Houses and as a consequence look for additional secretarial support. When we first came in here, the mobile phone was still a relatively new thing. It certainly was in 2002 when I started. I got my first one a couple of years before that. Now, it is hundreds of emails; often, in fairness, the delete button is a great thing. I use it not sparingly on many of the blanket emails we get. However, the public deserve a response too and all emails are not the ordinary cut and paste ones we get so many of every day. In order to respond to them, it might be time to look at additional supports for Members.

I would be remiss in my last minute if I did not mention an issue that relates to the Oireachtas commission. In the past few weeks, I have had several members of my family and friends, people who campaigned with me over 25 years, visit the Oireachtas. The first thing they wanted to see was the bike shed, which says it all. How could a commission appointed by this House get the OPW to install a shed any tradesman could put in place for €20,000 or €30,000 at a cost €336,000? People are right to ask questions about how public money is spent. That surely must be the job of the Oireachtas commission into the future as well to ensure there are no repeats.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Marian Harkin)

Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

This debate is going to end early, Chair.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Marian Harkin)

We still have to keep to the time.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

I appreciate that. Let no more politicians - I do not doubt the sincerity of the Ceann Comhairle - say lessons have been learned. As soon as a politician or Minister says a lesson has been learned, the public thinks that is it, it is business as usual. Nothing will be learned and everything will continue as it was.

That does harm to the public's belief in the public services we have and so many good people who work in the public sector right across the country when there are no consequences for disgusting overspends of public money.

My final comment is to ask the Minister to ensure that when the commission continues into the future and that there are consequences for such blatant waste of public money or else we will continue to undermine public trust in our system of government.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Marian Harkin)

I was happy to allow Deputy Phelan a little leeway as it is his last speech.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

I thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I would like to join with other Members, as this may be my last opportunity to do so, to say a very sincere thank you to the staff of the Houses of the Oireachtas at all levels right throughout this complex. During my long time here, I have always found them to be extremely helpful, supportive and courteous to me. They are an essential part of our democracy and we simply could not function without their conscientious contribution to the successful operation of these Houses.

I want to concentrate on the Bill before us. I welcome the debate on the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. However, it is deeply regrettable that this legislation is being rushed through the Oireachtas at the last minute without proper and robust parliamentary scrutiny. This Bill provides for a €565 million allocation to the commission over three years. That is over €100 million more than the previous allocation and represents a 22% increase. I accept that much of that has been as a result of improved pay and conditions, not least for the parliamentary staff because it was very much needed. The fact of the matter is that we have no real idea of how this money is to be spent over the next three years. There is no detail or no scrutiny of this at all. That is poor practice.

I accept that the Dáil will expand also in the situation after the next election and with that, obviously, there will be additional costs but those costs should be teased out and if Members of this House were given the opportunity to carry out their oversight role properly, we would not be having this situation. We would be enabled to do our job properly by both the Minister and his Department. We should not be railroading this Bill through the Dáil and Seanad.

We all know that this legislation needs to be passed before the current funding ends in December but we should never have been placed in this position. One would have to ask why is it that this is happening at the last minute.

Throughout the Thirty-third Dáil, we have seen this Government show a flagrant disregard for proper parliamentary processes. In 2022, the European Commission even criticised the Government for this stating, "discussions on new bills tend to be concentrated during short periods of time (in particular, during the two weeks before recesses), with negative consequences for proper parliamentary scrutiny". This is a case in point before us today. This has been especially bad during the past few weeks. A looming election is no excuse for this abuse of the legislative process and that is what it is.

In the aftermath of the bike shed debacle, it is particularly galling that this legislation is being rushed through. People were rightly outraged about this lavish spending. While the OPW does a lot of fine work, it needs to be far more concerned with value for money. This is public money and they should take proper care of it.

Questions also need to be asked about the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission and its level of oversight and engagement. It is all well and good to haul the OPW before the commission after the fact but why was the commission not more curious in 2021 when the plans changed? At that time the new option brought forward by the OPW was agreed by the commission without any costings being presented or discussed. Essentially a blank cheque was written and that is a serious failing. After all, this is public money we are dealing with and there needs to be proper care taken of it.

The oversight role of the Minister's Department in public spending leaves a lot to be desired. I have commented on a number of occasions that his Department seems to have forgotten the fact that the "R" in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, DPER, stands for "reform" and we have seen precious little reform of spending by his Department. Indeed, I sometimes wonder what exactly is the role of DPER and why is it not combined back with the Department of Finance. After all, it was split for one purpose and one purpose only, which was to give an economic Ministry to a party in a coalition government and that practice has continued, unfortunately, since then. There should be a special unit to provide oversight of all public spending. That does not exist at the moment. The fact that we have the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Committee of Public Accounts is sometimes referred to but, again, that is after the event. Any major project that is being proposed that involves public money should be seriously scrutinised in advance of that. We do not have that kind of process at the moment to any serious extent.

On the subject of greater oversight, I would also like to take this opportunity to raise some related matters. It has come to my attention that there has been some abuse of the parliamentary privileges that Members enjoy here. For example, I want to raise the pre-paid post facility we have. That needs to be reviewed and the allocation is obviously no longer relevant to the extent that it had been previously because of the widespread use of email.

The other example of that is that there are certain examples where that freepost is being used for electoral purposes and that should never be the case. I have myself witnessed "Vote No. 1" leaflets going out in recent times in prepaid envelopes and that should not happen. Using pre-paid Oireachtas envelopes to campaign is clearly against the rules because it should be declared as an election expense. However, these rules continue to be flouted. This again is a misuse of public moneys and it must be tackled in a serious way if people are to have trust in politicians. It gives officeholders an unfair advantage in election campaigns and these unincurred costs should be repaid.

I read the annual report of the Oireachtas commission and the only reference to postal management seemed to be in respect of scrutiny. That is insufficient. There is a need for a thorough review of the use of that.

Another issue I would like to raise is that of access to Leinster House by former Members. I have raised this on a number of occasions in recent years. As I understand it, this protocol is under the purview of the commission and it needs urgent review. There would seem to be a revolving door between politics and private sector lobbying. We have seen umpteen examples of former Members of this House, Senators and Ministers, moving seamlessly from the political arena into the private sector in what are known as lobbying and public engagement companies, who are really lobbyists under a different name. Very significant ethical issues arise in circumstances like that. This practice of ex-Members involved in lobbying being facilitated by their perpetual access to the Leinster House complex needs to be tackled. It is not right.

This has allowed an insidious situation to develop whereby several former Ministers, Deputies and Senators move seamlessly between politics and lobbying. They use the privilege of admission to the complex to gain undue access to sitting Ministers and other influential Members of these Houses. This is especially the case with ex-government TDs and Ministers, who are frequently seen swanning around the corridors of this complex. In recent years, there have been several high-profile examples of TDs and Ministers moving between politics and public affairs or lobbying roles, and in some cases looking to move back into politics again. The Minister will be familiar with that. This is wrong. There needs to be a very clear demarcation between politics and lobbying. Access to Leinster House is a privilege that should not be taken away lightly, but once an ex-Member of this House becomes a lobbyist they should forfeit their right of access to it. It is really important this issue is taken up. I regret it was not taken up in a serious way in this Dáil, despite I and my party colleagues raising it several times. It brings politics into disrepute and I urge the Minister, and certainly his successor, to take this issue on because it is not doing anybody any service.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Ach an oiread le go leor daoine eile, tá seans ann gurb é seo mo sheans deiridh, cé go mbeidh mé ag caint sa Dáil arís amárach má shuíonn sí. Tá rún istigh agam a thagann faoi Roinn an Aire féin.

I join in the thanks for all the staff in the House here. I will not start listing the different groups of people who have been so helpful over all the years. They have not only been helpful, but have become good friends of all of us and have been so kind to all the visitors we have brought in and so accommodating to everybody. It is something that makes Leinster House a great place to work and somewhere it is always a pleasure to come to. I do not know whether it has ever happened to the Minister, as a TD, that somebody calls or emails requesting he get one of his team to do something, like look at his diary or check something. Did he look to his left and then his right and see that aside from him there are two on the team? What I have noticed in politics is everything has got more complicated. The whole world has got complicated. Bureaucracy has gone mad. Forms are much more difficult. Lots of people are having lots more difficulty interacting with the State. You cannot get anybody on the phone. They come in desperation to people like Deputies to try to sort their problems out and the service they rightly seek should be of a high quality. Some people will say that is not the job of the TD, but I do not know who is meant to do it. My experience was that I learned so much about the flaws in the system, whether it was forms that were badly designed or policies that have a ridiculous result. It is only when you go to the coalface that you see what ordinary people encounter every day in the system. I brought many of the ideas I have learned from doing my constituency work when I had the great opportunity of being a Minister. My last act here was to be rapporteur on a committee that looked at the whole issue of means-testing, which is a huge issue for people in the west and all over the country. Many people are subject to means tests.

It is absolutely vital – and I can say this going out the door – that there is adequate resourcing of Teachtaí Dála. Democracy all over the world is under challenge. There are lots of people who think it is an unnecessary expense. There is a lot of commentary to that effect. Democracy is the bulwark of stability and is incredibly important to where we find ourselves as a nation in terms of the progress we have made and we must be willing to pay for it. Let the people who do not agree stand up and say they do not, but the vast majority of people agree and want the service.

If the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach will indulge me for one more minute, years ago when I was a Minister a lady rang me and was giving out that I had staff in my constituency office. I noticed the call came from Dublin. I let her off for a while and then asked her whether she would have been mad at me if nobody had answered the phone. I said this was my constituency office, whereas she was from Dublin. She said she supposed she would, started laughing and then apologised saying she accepted that. TDs’ offices are public offices that are accessed by people from all over the place and we should be fearless in funding them. The time to do it is after this election. We should ensure every Member has three staff at least. It is not fair to have one staff member on their own in a constituency office. That is a bad practice. We should all have a member of staff up here. I can say that while going out the door because I will never benefit if that comes in, but it is time we faced the work burden of TDs and did something practical about it. That is one small suggestion. There are other reforms I would like to see, but that is one I put on the agenda here in what might be my last or second last speech in the Dáil. Go raibh míle maith agat, a Chathaoirligh.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Marian Harkin)

Thank you, Deputy. We will hear from the Rural Independent Group.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Go raibh maith agat. I compliment Deputy Ó Cuív, who is just leaving, and Deputies Sherlock and Phelan who spoke knowledgeably, intelligently and very honestly about their time here and their experiences. A special buíochas to Deputy Ó Cuív and his wife, as well as his staff. When I got in here in 2007, we went on a visit to see how a constituency office runs. It was a couple of my team, my family and I. By hell did I learn a lot that day and got treated well in Galway at the office of Deputy Ó Cuív. I wish him well and thank him.

I thank everybody here and wish everybody who is retiring all the very best and good health. I also thank each and every member of staff from the people we meet outside the gates, the gardaí, the ushers on the gate and all the staff everywhere, including those in the canteen and the restaurant, the printers, the porters and everybody for the courteousness and the help they give. They have a tough job too and they do it with a smile all the time. I thank the Secretary General and his team as well as the Ceann Comhairle's office. I think the Ceann Comhairle chairs the commission and there are a lot of questions to be answered there, but I wish the Ceann Comhairle well and thank him too.

The Appropriations Bill, which outlines the Government's spending plans for the upcoming fiscal year has once again highlighted the chronic issues of cost overruns, lack of value for money and rampant overspending across all Departments. The Bill is intended to allocate funds to various government operations, but instead serves as a glaring reminder of the inefficiencies and lack of accountability that plague our public sector. That is not the fault of any one person, but is just the chronic system that has evolved. It is just not acceptable. The purpose of the Bill is to give statutory authority to the amounts voted by the Dáil during the year, including original Estimates, further Revised Estimates and Supplementary Estimates. The Bill also provides for definitive capital carryover from 2024-----

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

A Chathaoirligh, I should inform the Deputy we are not discussing that Bill. This is the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission (Amendment) Bill. The Appropriations Bill has not yet been taken.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Is that not what we are discussing?

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

We are not; this is the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission (Amendment) Bill. The Deputy is referring to the Appropriations Bill, which is later today.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Marian Harkin)

I thank the Minister.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I thank the Minister. I am ahead of my time. I will let my colleague come in.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Marian Harkin)

I call Deputy Collins.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I do not always agree with the Minister but I thank him. It is a bad day you do not learn something.

Deputy Michael Collins

I thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach. I give support to the Houses of the Oireachtas Bill because we have to look at the work and the amount of work staff do daily for TDs, Ministers, Senators and everybody here who is elected.

I pay tribute to my own staff, who work extremely hard, and Independent Ireland staff, who have been very strong workers with us through the years. I heard Deputy Ó Cuív speaking a while ago about having a staff member up here, for which there is a huge need, and one person on their own in a constituency office. I have two offices, which leaves me very much stretched because we are busy. In fairness, that is our job. People come in every day raising issues of serious concern and our offices need to be adequately staffed. It would be wrong of me to say otherwise. I know there will be people asking what we need staff for but we do need them.

I pay tribute to Ellen Barry, Patrick Joseph Ryan and Valerie Ward and many others. They work day and night. They take calls at night. I do not ask them to do that but they do that voluntarily. They take calls during the weekend. They work way beyond the hours they are paid for because they are 100% dedicated. I was lucky to have people like Margaret Peters and others who were so dedicated to their job down through the years and gave it everything they had. That goes for all politicians; if you are doing your job right, you will be busy. The staffing levels we have are needed and they need to be adequately funded.

Transparency is very important and as politicians we need to be aware of that. We have not had transparency on a lot of issues here that are causing considerable upset among the public. People have burned the ears off politicians about the bike shed, children's hospital, security hut and mobile phone pouches. People are very frustrated that there is no transparency as far as they are concerned. That is a lot of waste that must be investigated. Businesses are closing all over the country. More and more people will question what kind of money we are spending and where it is going. We have to listen to that. With the VAT rate not being cut to 9%, a lot of businesses are in dire trouble.

It is very important for these businesses to be able to open their doors to make profit unimpeded. A lot of business people from Kinsale are very annoyed that there will be a power outage for a whole Saturday in November. This will cause a massive loss for businesses in Kinsale and every one of them opposes it. They say there is no problem whatsoever with power works that have to be carried out but let them be carried out on Monday or Tuesday when most doors are shut now. To close down on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday, which are the only days they can open, to allow for necessary works on power lines puts businesses in a very difficult position.

I will not hold up proceedings because my colleague wants to speak. I support the Bill because working staff in the Houses, such as ushers, and all the other staff here, do a great job and we should support them in any way we can. We must support ourselves as well because otherwise we will not be able to deliver for the people. We deal with all sorts of issues on which we are not sure how to deliver. We cannot deliver if we have a low level of staff and if they are not adequately paid and looked after. I support the Bill.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

The first day I came to the Dáil, I was greeted by a good Limerick man who brought me in. His first bit of advice for me was to get lost if I wanted to learn the House. When I asked what he meant he said I should get lost and go into every corridor and room because I would eventually find out where to go. He said I would learn very fast and it was only the way to get experience of the House. I compliment the staff, from the cleaning and canteen staff to the ushers and office staff, on the help they have given me as a first-time Independent TD and the first Independent TD for Limerick. It was a learning curve for me but the support I received from the staff here was unbelievable. We have become great friends and they have done a lot with me and for me.

I have been a businessman all my life. When I look at the Cabinet I say to myself that it does not reflect the country because there is not the right mix. There is good people with different types of education in the Cabinet but it does not represent this country as a whole. In other words, if you want to bake a cake, you have to have all the ingredients. That is why the Government has failed to represent the country as a whole. It has represented some sectors but has forgotten about the hospitality sector. Cutting the VAT rate for hospitality to 9% would have saved jobs and businesses. The Government is giving grants to new businesses that are opening up but they only last two years and then close down. The businesses that have been operating for 20 or 30 years cannot get supports from the Government to keep them in businesses. The Government gives supports to new businesses to open up and says there has never been so many businesses, but those businesses then close down after two years because they realise that without Government assistance, they cannot stay open. What is there to keep businesses alive?

I have been in business all my life. I am a building contractor and a blocklayer by trade. I am an early school leaver. I received the education of life and it tells me that if you do not have the basic foundations to build on, it will not work. That was shown when people from Ukraine came here looking for help. When the Government tried to accommodate them around the country it found out there was no proper infrastructure in place outside Dublin and the major cities. That is where the failure of the Government has come from. The Government does not reflect the country as a whole and has forgotten about rural Ireland from the Red Cow outwards. It has forgotten the basics that communities, small businesses, agriculture, farming and transport deliver. The Government has forgotten to invest in rural Ireland. If you invest in small things in rural Ireland, they will invest in you because they are self-sufficient. They will not give out. All we ask is that the Government give rural Ireland the basic infrastructure it is giving to other people.

I have respect for the Minister in his role but I would like him to learn that he and the Cabinet have to represent this country as a whole. It is not all about the capital. The capital is supposed to be the base that should flourish and bring along all communities and counties equally together. I support the Bill.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Bhí sé i gceist agam a bheith istigh níos luaithe agus labhairt air an gceist seo. Is ceist thábhacht í toisc go bhfuil airgead i gceist chun a dhéanamh cinnte de go bhfuil an Teach seo ag obair. Gan an t-airgead nó an infheistíocht sin, tá dainséar ann. Cosnaíonn daonlathas airgead; tá sé chomh simplí leis sin. Tá daoine amuigh ansin agus b’fhearr leo nach mbeadh muid anseo. B’fhearr leo nach mbeadh an Dáil ann agus nach mbeadh muid ag caitheamh airgid. Tá sé tábhachtach i gcónaí go smaoinímid air seo. Caithfimid ár jab a dhéanamh agus gan an fhoireann iontach atá istigh anseo bheadh sé i bhfad Éireann níos deacra. Luaim an fhoireann, lucht an ceaintín, na ushers - is féidir liom dul tríd an liosta ar fad - agus an fhoireann atá againn inár n-oifigí féin atá ag cuidiú lá i ndiaidh lae leis an bpobal. Déanann roinnt daoine dearmad air sin nuair atá siad ár n-ionsaigh. Tapóidh mé an deis chun an t-ionsaí a rinneadh ar an Aire, an Teachta Roderick O’Gorman, an tseachtain seo chaite a cháineadh. Ní hé sin an bealach le polaitíocht nó plé a bheith ann. Ba chóir go mbeadh muid in ann dul timpeall le linn toghcháin agus stocaireacht a dhéanamh agus labhairt le daoine. Níor chóir go mbeadh daoine ag déanamh na hionsaithe atá ag tarlú rómhinic anois le cúpla bliain anuas. Más daonlathas atá ann, tá cead againn labhairt agus díospóireacht a bheith againn. Ba chóir go mbeadh cead againn a bheith gafa sa toghchán mar atá roinnt dóibh siúd atá ag tabhairt tacaíochta dóibh siúd atá ag déanamh ionsaithe, ní hamháin ar líne ach ionsaithe fisiciúil ar Theachtaí nó Airí san áit seo.

Tapaím an deis dár ndóigh moladh a thabhairt d’ Éamon Ó Cuív agus na Gaeilgeoirí eile atá ag éirí as. Is ait liom go bhfuil 20% de Theachtaí ag éirí as sula bhfaigheann an pobal réidh leo ar bhealach amháin nó bealach eile. Go n-éirí go maith leo siúd atá ag éirí as. Molaim an Bille seo.

Deputy Violet-Anne Wynne

I will use the two minutes I have to commend the staff in the Houses of the Oireachtas. In my time here since I was elected, they have been more than helpful. From the ushers and cleaning staff to the canteen and IT staff - I hope I am not forgetting anybody but I am sure I will - each and every one of them is a happy, smiling face. That is really important for us, as Members, when we are dealing with tricky, difficult and complex personal situations for our constituents, as well as wider societal issues.

I commend the staff on their efforts. One particular instance I will not forget is when I brought Baby Collins Montaine into the Chamber. The ushers were so helpful on that occasion. Not only do they make the experience in the Houses of the Oireachtas easier, in some ways they are also a familiar face on which we can depend every day. I extend my gracious thanks to each and every one of them for the time I have been here. I also commend my constituency staff in my office, Sinead Perez and Kathleen Coll. They have been impeccable and a pillar of strength for me as a public representative. I wanted to take time to mention the work that goes on behind the scenes. It keeps everything we see on the television working and keeps us all in line. Gabhaim buíochas leo go léir.

Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform (Deputy Paschal Donohoe)

I thank the Deputies who have contributed to the debate, namely, Deputies Conway-Walsh, Sherlock, Phelan, Shortall, Ó Cuív, Collins, McGrath, O'Donoghue, Ó Snodaigh and Violet-Anne Wynne, who made some concluding comments. I will pick up on a couple of points made. Every speaker who contributed to the debate offered support for the Bill and I thank them very much for doing so.

I will respond to comments made by Deputy Róisín Shortall who referred to the Bill being rushed. It is indeed the case that I am hoping to complete all Stages this afternoon, with the co-operation of the House. I emphasise that the Bill is a consequence of engagement that has already taken place between the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission and my Department. It did not emerge from a vacuum. The figures in the Bill and the rationale for them are the consequence of a process that has taken place between my Department and the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. The proposed costs have a very solid rationale and justification.

This leads to my second point, namely, our recognition and acknowledgement that our work involves an expense. Anyone who has the privilege of serving as a Member of this House spends much of his or her time dealing with complex situations, either on behalf of constituents or, if he or she is privileged to hold office in any way, on behalf of the country. As all speakers commented, we rely so much on our staff either here in Leinster House or in our constituency offices to support us in the discharge of our duties. I listened to the comments made regarding the need for further assistance and resources in the delivery of constituency work in particular. In the context of the support that will be needed in the next Oireachtas and Bills similar to this one that will follow, I accept this is an issue that will require further consideration. As it stands, the level of support and resources available to TDs and Senators is appropriate but I am also aware that the demands many of them are facing, particularly those who represent constituencies further away from Leinster House, are acute and considerable. My Department will certainly consider the issues the Deputies raised in future. These matters also need to be considered by the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, on which there are representatives from all parties and none. These are the kinds of issues I hope can be further discussed when the next Dáil is formed.

I add to those of other speakers my own thanks to those with whom I have worked in the Oireachtas. I hope to have the opportunity to work with them again in the future. Obviously, that is dependent on the people of Dublin Central. Everyone spoke with great warmth about the support that is made available to us in this House, not only by our staff on whom we depend most but also by everyone else who works here, from our colleagues who support the Houses of the Oireachtas, to the ushers and those who look after the facilities. It is appropriate their work has been recognised by all who have spoken.

As for other matters related to the Bill, a further allocation for our work over the next three years is proposed. Much of that additional cost is driven by the fact that the next Dáil will be bigger, with more TDs and constituencies represented in it. The funding envelope also provides for investment in IT that will be needed to make our work more efficient and safer.

On that note, I acknowledge the TDs who have spoken for whom this afternoon could be the final time they speak in Dáil Éireann. I thank them for their great service to their constituents and for the way in which they have represented their constituents on many matters over very distinguished careers. I commend the Bill to the House.

Question put and declared carried.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar fionraí ar 2.57 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 3.46 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 2.57 p.m. and resumed at 3.46 p.m.