Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Mar 2025

Vol. 1064 No. 2

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Over the course of the next week the Taoiseach will engage in three crucially important meetings for Ireland's future. The first is a meeting with the British Prime Minister in which I hope the Taoiseach will press for a reset of relationships as equal partners. Then there is an EU Council meeting at a time when the European Commission has kickstarted an EU arms race, proposing a colossal €800 billion in military spending. Then the Taoiseach travels to the United States to meet the US President in the White House at a time when an outrageous threat of mass expulsion from Gaza hangs over 2 million Palestinians.

This year’s St. Patrick’s Day meeting comes at a time of conflict, challenge and deep uncertainty in the world. It also comes at a time of deep public concern regarding the Government’s moves to dismantle the triple lock and undermine Ireland’s neutrality. People ask why Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael do not bring that same urgency when dealing with housing, access to healthcare or the cost of living. It has never been more important for Ireland to protect and assert our long-standing neutrality fully intact. The meeting with the US President presents an opportunity to address Ireland’s interests, but also a moment to speak honestly with him and voice Ireland’s position clearly on pressing international affairs. I am certain the Taoiseach will impress upon President Trump the importance of continued US support for our peace process and the Good Friday Agreement, the need for a solution for the undocumented Irish and of course the real concerns regarding the impact tariffs could have on Ireland’s economy, on jobs and on future prosperity. The message has to be that Ireland is a location of choice for American investment for very good reason, that the economic relationship between our two countries is a two-way street and that it must continue in the time ahead.

This will be the Taoiseach’s last time taking Leaders’ Questions before he makes that journey to the United States, so I ask him to set out for the Dáil very clearly what it is he will say to the US President regarding Ukraine and Gaza. Will he put it to President Trump that Ireland stands on the side of international law and diplomacy, that the sovereignty of Ukraine must be upheld, that the pressing and immediate priority now is to build peace through inclusive engagement and good faith dialogue? What will be the Taoiseach’s message to the American President in standing with the Palestinian people? Will he express Ireland’s strong view the US is catastrophically wrong on Gaza, that the proposal for the mass expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza is an absolutely unacceptable breach of international law and deeply destabilising for the Middle East and the wider world? Remember this view can be most powerfully delivered by an Ireland that is a military neutral. Remember it was the unaligned countries that spoke for Palestine's right to exist while those in powerful military alliances failed to stop the genocide and have in fact financed it and armed the Israeli war machine. Mar sin, caithfidh an teachtaireacht ó Éirinn sa Teach Bán a rá gur féidir agus gur gá dár dtíortha a bheith mar leathbhádóirí rathúla ar son na síochána, ar son an dul chun cinn, agus ar son rathúnas na cruinne. Ireland and America can be successful partners for peace, progress and prosperity, but only if we choose to be and only if we are determined to be. I ask the Taoiseach to set out clearly what his message is to the United States on Palestine and Gaza.

The Taoiseach

Tá an ceart ag an Teachta go bhfuil na cruinnithe a bheidh agam an tseachtain seo agus an tseachtain seo chugainn tábhachtach. Léiríonn siad an gaol láidir agus tábhachtach atá idir ár dtír agus an Bhreatain. Léiríonn siad cé chomh tábhachtach is atá an gaol idir na tíortha san Aontas Eorpach agus, gan amhras, an gaol an-láidir atá idir na Stáit Aontaithe agus ár dtír. Sa trí chás sin, tá cúrsaí eacnamaíochta ríthábhachtach. Ní aon amhras ach go mbraitheann forbairt cúrsaí geilleagair na tíre seo ar na gaolta sin idir na Stáit Aontaithe, an Bhreatain agus an tAontas Eorpach, ós rud é go bhfuilimid páirteach san Aontas Eorpach anois ó 1973 ar aghaidh.

Since I became Taoiseach I have identified a number of relationships that are key to Ireland's future and have been key to our success over the last 30 or 40 years. The Irish-United Kingdom relationship is an extremely important one. The UK is our closest neighbour and tonight we begin an annual summit that will now occur every year between the UK Government and the Irish Government. It is a relationship of family, a relationship of neighbours and a very strong economic relationship and we should not forget that, notwithstanding Brexit. Many Irish small- to medium-sized companies begin their export story in the British market. We will be seeking and working to see if we can ease the barriers that are in the way of trade between the United Kingdom and Ireland and indeed the EU more generally because economic growth in Britain will be good for Ireland and will help economic growth in Ireland. I am looking forward to that meeting along with my colleagues in government. A number of Ministers will be meeting their counterparts as part of this UK-Ireland Summit also.

The EU Council is a moment of huge importance. I am somewhat perplexed by the Deputy’s reference to Europe kickstarting an arms race. She is, I think, missing the point. Many European countries are very fearful of the threat Russia poses to their very existence. Many of these countries have history with Russia, particularly the Baltics, Poland and many others. We should not forget that or, in our complacency in this part of the world, undermine or seek to dismiss very legitimate fears these countries have about their very survival – and it is real. Europe has to be self-reliant. This is in order to ensure peace and prosperity because Europe wants peace. President von der Leyen made that clear in her opening remarks. Europe is about peace, it is about prosperity and it is about quality of life for its citizens. No one wants war but the bottom line is Europe is exposed right now and EU member states need military capability and security capability across a lot of domains including cybersecurity, maritime security, energy security and so forth.

The relationship of the United States with Ireland is older than the State itself and is an extremely important one. We are going fundamentally of course to celebrate the historical links between Ireland and the US. St. Patrick’s Day has always been the traditional day to do that, and St. Patrick’s week as well, and to be there for our diaspora.

Some 30 million people claim Irish descent.

In terms of the core issues, the economic relationship is very important. We are an open small economy.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you, Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

We are pro-free trade and I will articulate that perspective. We will also articulate our views regarding Ukraine and the Middle East.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Gan dabht, tá na gaolta sin uilig an-tábhachtach ar fad. That is why I have raised the question with the Taoiseach. I am not in the least bit complacent. I am deeply concerned about the international order at this time and Ireland's place within it. Peace is not achieved by investing in and financing war. Every rule in the book is being set aside to enable Europe to invest €800 billion in weapons of war. That is patently not a peace strategy. This country is a neutral country and militarily unaligned, and that places us in the strongest position to advocate for international law, the UN system and real processes of dialogue and conflict resolution, which is where we need to be. Can the Taoiseach set out much more clearly what exactly he will say on Ukraine and, in particular, on Gaza and the Palestinian question?

The Taoiseach

First of all, I invite Deputy McDonald to talk to political parties in Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. She should ask them if our position is somehow going to ease their concern and anxiety. I do not think she gets it and I think she needs to engage more widely in terms of the perspectives of others on the European Continent. They have bitter experience of what happened to their people over many decades and centuries. The one bright spot for them was that, with the collapse of the old Soviet Union, they got access to the European Union. That is where they want to be, and they want to be secure.

In respect of peace, we want a peace settlement that is durable and sustainable in Ukraine. President Trump wants a peace settlement in Ukraine. There are different perspectives on how to arrive at that.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

What about Palestine and Gaza?

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you, Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

In terms of Gaza and the Middle East, let us be clear. We want to consolidate the ceasefire and will be making that point very strongly. We want a surge in humanitarian aid into Gaza. The Arab peace initiative and the Arab proposals in respect of Gaza have come through, which have a lot to commend themselves.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

I want to return to an issue I raised with the Taoiseach yesterday, namely, the crisis in special education. Last Friday, I joined a group of 50 parents, children and family members who had to resort to a 24-hour sleep-out in front of the Department of Education in Dublin in order to highlight the crisis they are experiencing. I heard harrowing stories of experiences from desperate parents who are frustrated and in despair at the battle they had on behalf of their children. One mother told me of a long waiting list to achieve an assessment of need for her three-year-old daughter. A grandmother told me about her daughter's battle to get a place in a special school for her son who is six years old. A march will take place in Cork city this weekend to protest at the same issue because this is a nationwide crisis.

We in Labour offer our full support and solidarity, as I know we all do, to those families in these situations. Securing a diagnosis through the public system for children takes years. Even achieving a diagnosis is no longer the answer it once was because access to therapies, the necessary treatments and school places is so difficult.

Yesterday, I asked the Taoiseach how he would ensure that every child who needs a school place or therapy will have access to that. I asked when the 14,000 children now waiting for an assessment of need will be seen. In response, he said, "We are working to see if we can ensure places for children next September", which is not exactly a wrought iron guarantee.

I would like to give the Taoiseach the opportunity today to say something more substantive on this because every year we hear these watery commitments. When the school year draws to a close, every year parents are left scrambling because there are no places for their precious children. A child's right to education is protected by the Constitution, but at least 118 children with additional needs have not received an offer of a school place anywhere this year. We know many more have had to take up inappropriate places or be bussed out of their communities because there is nowhere local to go.

The Journal reports that 1,274 children were moved to reduced school days in the past school year. Of that group, more than 80% of primary school pupils had special educational needs. Families need to hear from the Taoiseach how the Government will achieve access to places for their children come this September and, in particular, to reassure them that there will be enough staff in place to meet the level of need.

Yesterday, my colleague, Deputy Eoghan Kenny, asked the Taoiseach whether the Department of Education had a recruitment freeze on special needs assistants, SNAs. We have received multiple reports indicating that this is the case. School principals have been informed that they cannot have an SNA sanctioned for their schools because it seems the Department has outlined that new SNA positions will not be filled until September at the earliest. One school we know of has been refused a second special educational needs room, despite having a classroom lying empty, and the principal suspects it is because the Department does not want to pay for staff. Is there a de facto recruitment freeze on SNAs? If not, how can the Department justify delays and refusals? I again ask the Taoiseach when every child will have access to the school places and therapies they need.

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue because it is very important and one I am determined to deal with in the short term. I want to ensure there is a proper system in the years to come whereby parents will know in the previous academic year where their child will attend second level for the subsequent academic year. Parents are going through too much in terms of endeavouring to find a school place or navigating the therapy support services that children require.

I will deal with the school places issue. First, the population growth in the number of children with special needs is significant. Funding has significantly increased. The number of additional places, teachers and SNAs has increased dramatically. That is no comfort or consolation to those parents who do not have a place or access to services, but it needs to be said.

We have established about 11 new special schools since 2020. This is the first Government in a long time that began to establish new special schools. There had been moves against special schools for ideological reasons and people felt that perhaps mainstream schools were more appropriate, but that stopped in the past couple of years. This coming school year, five more special schools will open.

I have spoken to the NCSE and the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, who has also been in touch with the ETB and the NCSE. There are problems in north and south Dublin and Cork county. There may be other problems outside of those areas, but there are particular issues in those locations. Suffice to say, we will have to increase the number of special schools and special classes.

There will be 400 extra special classes coming on board in the school year 2025-26. Some 218 have already been sanctioned in the past week alone and more will follow imminently. Staffing has increased by 27% since 2020. There are now 23,400 special needs assistants. There is no freeze on the recruitment of SNAs. There has been an increase of 32% in the number of SNAs since 2020. We have 20,800 special education teachers, an increase since 2020. I acknowledge that is poor consolation to those who do not have a school place. We will work flat out to ensure we do everything we possibly can to create spaces and new special schools between now and the end of this academic year to prepare for children coming in next September. No effort will be spared in securing places for children for whom places have not currently been identified.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you, Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

On the assessment of need, I said earlier that we are looking at the legislative framework. We will have to introduce legislation to deal with the issue around assessment of need.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

I thank the Taoiseach for the response and saying so clearly that there is no freeze on SNAs. That is at odds with the experiences reported to us by principals. I would welcome a more detailed written response from the Taoiseach on that because we have been told there is a directive from the Department that amounts to an obstacle or blockage to the hiring by principals of the SNAs that are needed.

We all accept demographic change, but there is clearly a lack of planning from the Department because we know the numbers of children born each year and should be able to plan ahead for need.

That is what is frustrating parents. We heard from a parent in the midlands who has applied to 16 schools for their son, aged six, who should be going into senior infants in September but is still in preschool because there are no places available. The SENO now says that parent must apply to mainstream schools despite having a diagnosis stating the child must have access to a special school place.

These are the stories of desperately frustrated parents. We need to hear from the Government that there will be forward planning put in place to ensure there will be enough staff hired and enough places made available-----

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's time is up.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

-----to ensure every child who needs a special school or class will have access to that.

The Taoiseach

There will have to be forward planning and that will be made clear to the agencies and the Department. There will have to be proper preparation in the coming years, looking at the demographics and the need and making sure there is a much more seamless system for parents and children with additional needs. That is the bottom line as far as I am concerned. Every child is entitled to an education. No school can be saying, "No". There must be far more proactivity out there as well. The NCSE is conscious of this and I have made it clear. I will be convening ongoing meetings with the relevant Ministers and agencies to ensure we address the increased demographic issues that arise with our increasing population. The census is very clear. There has been quite a significant change between the past two censuses in respect of those indicating disability within the general population, but particularly children with additional needs. I am not satisfied with the way things are now. I will be very open with the Deputy in that regard. This is a key priority for us. It is fundamental to me and to the House as well.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

The Taoiseach says there will have to be forward planning in the future. Why is that forward planning not taking place under this Government? Why did it not take place under the previous Government? The crisis in special education is simply getting worse under the Taoiseach's watch. There are now hundreds of parents who do not know if their children will have a school place in September. One mother in north Cork, Sheila Casey Jones, told the Irish Examiner that her son Patrick has received 29 rejections for a school place. The situation is now so desperate that Sheila is contacting schools as far away as Laois, Kilkenny and Donegal to find a place. How has the Taoiseach and the Government let a situation like this happen, whereby a family in Cork is desperately looking for school places as far away as Donegal?

I attended a protest outside the Department of Education on Friday where parents were sleeping out to try to get places for their children with additional needs. No one should have to do this. Speaking to families at the protest, their deep frustration was clear. Parents told me they had been cast into the role of project manager in trying to secure a place for their children. They are co-ordinating between school principals, boards of management, builders, the NCSE and the Department of Education. They are desperately trying to get classrooms delivered in time for their children to start school. Despite all their efforts, days, weeks and months go by without progress being made. This is incredibly frustrating for parents and families who are already facing huge pressures and responsibilities and it is grossly unfair on children who may not have the school places they need in September.

Where is the co-ordination on this? Where is the drive? Why are parents being left to try to sort this out? It is the Government's job to ensure every child receives an education. It is the Taoiseach's role to sort out this issue, whether it is a lack of co-ordination or a lack of drive .

Charlotte Cahill, one of the parents at the protest on Friday, summarised her experience as follows: "They designed the system so that a door closes at every opportunity." When will these doors start opening? Does the Taoiseach accept the Government is failing these families and their children? Can he guarantee that every child who needs one will have an appropriate place in school in September?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. To clarify, funding is not an issue here. The Deputy spoke about planning and so forth. I am aware of the case highlighted by Sheila Casey Jones in respect of her son Patrick. In Cork alone, we now have about 16 special schools, as well as Cork University Hospital School, educating approximately 1,000 children in the Cork area. Three of those schools, namely, Carrigaline, Rochestown and East Cork community special schools, were only established in the past two to three years.

I made the point earlier that in previous years people were promoting the idea that we should have full mainstream integration and there was less enthusiasm around special schools. This view emanated from UN sources. This was growing currency in the past decade and, in my view, that is wrong. When the last Government came in, we changed direction and said we wanted special schools established.

Ultimately, we need to move towards full campuses where there is a full continuum between mainstream, post-primary, special and integrated between the three. The ETB is the way forward. I initiated the special schools under ETBs with the Minister, Deputy Foley, in recent years. We have brought the ETB system into special education for the first time. Cork ETB is now the patron of Carrigaline Community Special School. That is the future and the State has to be proactive in providing special education places, new schools and new additional places and special classes. There will be 400 special classes established this year alone. Special needs education now accounts for 25% of the overall education budget, as is right and correct. With regard to the school in the north city area, I am awaiting further information on where that issue is for that school on the northside of Cork that could be acquired. This needs to happen quickly for parents like Sheila Casey Jones and their kids.

I take the point that these issues need to be accelerated but there has been much more happening on the special school front in recent years than might have been the case in the past decade. We need to do it much faster, however, because the population is growing. The demand and the numbers coming out of primary will increase; there is no question about that. Post-primary has been much slower than primary in terms of the special needs provision. We have legislation which can compel schools. The approach has always been to try to persuade schools and bring people with you so that the ethos and spirit is correct in facilitating special needs education. In my view, it is a fundamental issue in terms of rights and, therefore, no school should be refusing a child on the basis of the child having an additional special need. That relates more to the special classes issue but we do have to develop more special schools and we are determined to do that.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Does the Taoiseach see something wrong with parents who have a huge amount on their hands being cast into the role of project managing to try to get a school place for their child? There is something fundamentally wrong with that. What is the Taoiseach doing to sort this out? Parents should not be put in that situation. The Taoiseach said 400 special classes have been promised to be opened this year but he has also said that only 218 have been sanctioned. There is a huge gap between sanctioning places and classes for children and them actually being delivered. Parents are being told it will take between 12 and 18 months for modular classrooms to be delivered and they are trying to manage this process. Children have a right to education and it is the Taoiseach's role to ensure they get the education they require. What is the Taoiseach doing to sort this out? It is not acceptable that parents have to protest again this Saturday in Cork to highlight this. What is the Taoiseach doing to sort this situation out?

The Taoiseach

It is wrong that parents have to be the proactive person in securing a place for their child. I believe the State should be doing that. The National Council for Special Education should have a proactive role in identifying the demand and need, and then agreeing the proper placement for a child. That is what I believe and it was the case before the establishment of the NCSE, when inspectors used to do this. When we stopped a lot of this in the late 90s, in 1998, decisions of that Government gave an automatic entitlement to children with special needs to a pupil-teacher ratio and to placements and so forth. The system then grew very big, however. It has grown exponentially due to mainstreaming and so forth. The figures are significant and tell another story, which is that there has been huge growth in special classes, SNAs and so on. That is no consolation to the parents who are currently protesting because they do not see any light at the end of the tunnel right now. They have no chink of light in terms of what the direction of travel is for their child or where their child is going to be.

The NCSE, to be fair, has been working on this agenda of proactive engagement with parents. That is the key to the issue. The State should be saying, "We understand the needs of this child, we believe this is the best location for the child and we are going to facilitate the child being located there". That is where we will get to.

Deputy Ken O'Flynn

I rise to discuss an issue that is extremely important in my constituency and in the adjoining one, which is the Taoiseach's constituency. It concerns an ongoing problem that I highlighted in 2021 with the help of the investigative journalism of Amy Nolan from The Echo. I refer to the condition of the water supply across the northside of Cork city and now into parts of the county as well. As the Taoiseach is well aware, the connection that was brought from Ballincollig to the old waterworks on the River Lee, which connected to the existing system, had too high a velocity. That started an ongoing problem. The pipes are rusting, breaking and are destroyed. There is a problem with flushing systems. Irish Water has continuously been flushing for the past four years on the northside. People are waking up on the northside of the city not knowing whether they can bathe their children, wash their hands, have a shower or put on a wash and leave. There are elderly and disadvantaged people in this community who are heavily reliant on others to know whether their tap water is brown or is running clear.

Nobody is concerned to address this issue four years after it was originally highlighted. Irish Water has come out with a statement that €500 million needs to be secured for Cork City Council. Working on the basis that the €500 million is provided, it would take 90 years, at the rate the work is being done, to replace the Victorian pipeline in Cork city. What Irish Water has done for the northside of the city is introduce two trunking systems that are continuously pumping out water. There are communities going three or four days without water, with householders unable to run a tap, take a shower, bathe a child or wash bedding. That is unacceptable. It is something we would see in an advertisement for an African charity asking for money to build a well. That is the way the people of the northside are being treated. There are people with pubs and other businesses that are reliant on the mains supply for their ice machines, dishwashers and steam ovens. They do not want know whether they can open their business on a given day because the water supply is not secure. The problem has now moved into a little bit of the southside of Cork city. The dermatology department in Cork University Hospital, CUH, is no longer providing baths for patients because the state of the water cannot be guaranteed. These are patients who attend CUH on a regular basis. It is an absolute scandal.

We have asked continuously about the funding but there is no mention of it in the programme for Government. Where is the €500 million that needs to be secured for the northside? I say respectfully to the Taoiseach that I wonder whether this would be acceptable if it were happening in Turners Cross in his constituency. What is not good enough for the southside certainly should not be good enough for the northside. Yet again, we are being let down by him and his Government.

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy for raising what is a very important issue, of which I am aware. As he knows, Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan has been raising it for quite some time, along with Deputy Gould and others. There have been ongoing issues with the quality of water in Cork, predominantly on the northside of the city. I have met with Irish Water on a wide range of issues and I have specifically raised this matter with its representatives. They indicated to me that some investments they have made will improve the situation. They are hoping for an improvement in the quality of water.

The Deputy is correct that there are huge issues with replacing the Victorian system of pipes. We will be allocating substantial additional capital to Irish Water. It must continue the replacement programme. It will also have to develop newer capacity to ensure that houses get built and we can get development going. I will continue to work with Irish Water to accelerate the work required to deal with this issue. It is a very serious issue for people's quality of life, as the Deputy said, in terms of bathing water and drinking water. Of that there is no doubt. There is a programme of work under way in this regard. It cannot wait 90 years; that is accepted. We will be allocating funding to Irish Water through the updated national development plan but it must come with certain commitments and guarantees as to how that money will be spent.

Some €100 million has been spent already on improving water supply in the Cork area more generally. As the Deputy knows, the Cork city water supply scheme is nearing completion. We have had the replacement of the Churchfield reservoir roof and the upgrade of the Glashaboy water treatment plant and the Lee Road water treatment system. The city now has a much more modernised water supply system. There are about 600 km of water mains pipes in the city, 50% to 60% of which are made from cast iron and go back to the 1920s, making them approximately 100 years old. That is one of the big issues. The system is prone to bursts and leakage. Sediment can become dislodged in the old mains pipes during repair or upgrade works. This has caused huge issues in terms of the browning and discolouring of water and so forth. There are ongoing issues. There is a programme under way by Uisce Éireann, which will continue, and there will be further investments.

Deputy Ken O'Flynn

It is all very well what the Taoiseach has said and the commitment he has given. I am asking for a commitment in respect of the €500 million Irish Water has asked for to start developing the system. The Taoiseach will be aware of the news today that 33 samples of manganese have been found in water in Cork city. Manganese is at an unacceptable level there. I have just poured into the glass in front of me a sample of water from Cork city. This is what it looks like. That is what is coming out of the taps on the northside of the city. It is unacceptable to say the Government will try to do something to make it better. I challenge the Taoiseach or any other Member of this House to drink this water. I will not drink it. There are elderly people around Cork city who cannot see and do not know what is coming out of their tap. Consider trying to bathe a child in this water. What the Taoiseach is saying today might sound good but no action is being taken. My constituents - fellow Corkonians - are suffering.

The Taoiseach

As I said, Uisce Éireann is working proactively to address the issues with water supply in Cork. The planned flushing of the network took place in the first week of July last year in the Ballyvolane area, including Ballyvolane Shopping Centre, Ballyvolane new road, Riverview Estate and Meadow Park Lawn, over a seven-week period. Those flushing works are part of Uisce Éireann's network improvement plan to address water discolouration issues. Uisce Éireann says it is seeing a positive trend in areas that have been flushed to date. It expects those works to lead to further improvements in water quality. Planned flushing has been completed at Spring Lane, Ballyvolane Road, Park Court, Meelick Park and Kempton Park. A substantial area of flushing in Cork North-Central, which encompasses areas off the Ballyvolane Road, commenced at the end of September last year and was set to take approximately two months to complete. Further works were to get under way on Wednesday, 30 October, with the planned flushing to take place at Mervue Crescent and so forth. The work is continuing and the investment is going to be allocated. Obviously, Uisce Éireann will programme that investment. Substantial billions of euro will be allocated to Irish Water in the context of the national development plan to deal with this issue and wider issues in terms of wastewater treatment plants and water supply for new housing developments.