Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate – Dáil Éireann (34th Dáil) – Wednesday, 7 May 2025

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Family Resource Centres

Deputy Gary Gannon

I want to raise an issue I have raised on previous occasions, namely, the community I am very proud to represent, one that has its challenges but is always flourishing and has a deep history. It is a place full of strong families and deep roots, but it is a community that can often be overlooked and is struggling right now. The residents of Cabra have asked, in recognition not just of the problems but the opportunities that exist in the community, that a family resource centre be established. That is the issue I want to raise with the Minister of State.

In 2024, a group of local organisations came together to advocate for a family resource centre for Cabra. It completed a full needs analysis, backed by research from the Dublin Northwest Partnership.

They found some of the following research, information from which I will read for the Minister of State. Nearly 50% of residents in the area live in some level of disadvantage. Since 2016, there has been a 55% increase in people in the Cabra area classed as extremely disadvantaged. That is not just a statistic. That is thousands of lives at risk of falling through the cracks. When we talk about poverty or disadvantage, what we are actually talking about in many instances is what people are asked to go without. We know what factors are contributing to poverty. It is a lack of a warm coat. It is trauma that is replicated through generations and it is children being born into that environment. In Cabra West, the situation is even more urgent. Every single household in Cabra West A and B is classed as well below the average or worse with regard to deprivation. Families are facing precarious housing and isolation. Parents of kids with additional needs have a lack of safe spaces. People have to walk past visible drug dealing and there are increases in crime.

I attended the Cabra community needs launch only a few weeks ago, where a young mother of two children with additional needs described her utter desperation at a lack of services in the area for her children. One in three residents in Cabra is under the age of 30 and nearly 20% are under the age of 19, but there are next to no services for young people. Every primary school in Cabra is DEIS, and local services from youth work to school completion to sports programmes are crying out for some sort of central hub that can be a kind of space within Cabra that can start to confront the levels of deprivation and poverty. Conducting my own research using the census data, nearly a quarter of the current population of Cabra West has not gone past primary level education. There is a clear need for additional opportunities and equity in this area.

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, for taking this matter today. I understand the Minister of State cannot commit to a family resource centre today. What we are looking for is acknowledgement, awareness and a sense of reality that potentially none of us knew about beforehand, with a sense of recognition that this should be considered and that support for a family resource centre where it is needed most. I understand completely that there will be significant levels of campaigning and lobbying. Every community will have its own stories of why it is in need of a family resource centre.

Cabra is a real traditional working-class heartland in a part of Dublin that most people know exists but probably have not really walked through. It is full of amazing families and local businesses. It has been inundated with people who have bought houses in Cabra recently and there is a real fusion of different peoples. We need an anchor point of recognition. That could be a family resource centre that can provide care for children, after-school supports and emotional-based supports for parents. Family resource centres have done amazing work. I am blessed with one of them on Hill Street. I have talked to the family resource centres around the country. Cabra could really benefit from one and I encourage the Minister of State to take this issue seriously.

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Niamh Smyth)

I thank Deputy Gannon for raising this issue this evening. Cabra, like every other community in the country, is as entitled to it as anywhere else. I have the lived experience of the benefits of a family resource centre in my community in Bailieborough. Many moons ago, a community got together and established it in a housing estate in Bailieborough called Drumbannon. I had the privilege of starting my teaching career there, interacting with the young people in the area and interacting with the families. The service, provision, support and assistance they can give families is hugely valuable. When you see it working in a community and the benefits of it, you realise how important it is. Deputy Gannon described it well - as an anchor. It is a basis for a community and somewhere to go to. I wholeheartedly support the Deputy's campaign for this for Cabra.

The Minister, Deputy Foley, sends her apologies. She would like to be here herself but she was in the House earlier today and has a prior engagement this evening. I will pass on the Deputy's sentiment to her. I am pleased the family resource centre programme is expanding. We see that throughout the country. I think everyone will agree it is a very welcome development in the programme for Government for the member organisations and the communities the new family resource centres will serve. While I do not have specific details about each application, Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, has been in contact with a representative of a subcommittee of the Cabra child and family support network, which would say to me that things are happening and beginning to move. That was to establish details of the application process related to the planned expansion of the family resource centre, FRC, programme.

As part of a range of measures aimed at reducing childhood poverty, the current programme for Government commits to work to increase funding and expand the capacity and network of FRCs. Regarding FRC programme expansion, the Minister's Department secured funding in budget 2025 for five additional FRCs. I am delighted that on Thursday, 1 May, the opening of the application process was announced by Tusla and welcomed by the Minister, Deputy Foley. This is an open call for groups and organisations to apply for FRC programme membership. I am sure the community group the Deputy is talking about is mobilised by the fact there is an open process now. It is a game-changer and it helps to focus people's minds on what the needs are. It will make it a personalised service and function for the local community in Cabra. The commissioning unit of Tusla is managing the application and selection process, with five new family resource centres expected to become operational later this year, all of which are core funded by the Department.

It is important to note that core funding is only one element of funding that family resource centres can avail of. Core funding comes from the Department and is administered by Tusla, but many family resource centres obtain other sources of funding under various Departments, State agencies and private sources. This allows them to expand the scope and reach of their services and to tailor those services to the needs of their communities. It is important to acknowledge all of these entities that offer continuing support to the FRC network and acknowledge the work done by the staff and boards of management of individual centres.

Any support the Deputy can give by being on the management committee or steering committee certainly gives it weight and emphasis. It helps to drive it on and, one would hope, to make the application a success when it goes through the process and analysis. I wish the Deputy luck with the community. I will certainly express his sentiments to the Minister, Deputy Foley, and I am sure it will be a successful application.

Deputy Gary Gannon

I thank the Minister of State for her substantial contribution and recognition of Cabra, and her personal awareness of how change-positive the family resource centres can be for a community, particularly communities that, of their own volition, recognise the need for them. Cabra is an area with such an incredible history. The GAA team there is a real focal point for the community. There is generational poverty that can only be confronted through proper State intervention and a collation of services. It is exactly as the Minister of State describes. It is something which the communities, of their own volition, have mobilised for and about which they have lobbied me and other public representatives for the area to make the case. I am delighted to be able to do so today. I know the opening of five new family resource centres will be a competitive application. I am certainly not trying to lobby any more than using my position as a public representative for an area to give a voice.

I ask that when this consideration is being made, the Department looks at the statistics. The deprivation level in Cabra is really pronounced. It is more than probably exists in many other parts of the country. Because Cabra is around 2 km away from the city centre, it is often lost in conversations. When we talk about crime in the city centre, we are more likely to focus on the parts we pass through, like O'Connell Street. Cabra is a place that has experienced all the hardship of deprivation, poverty and social exclusion, but it has not received the same level of public attention, probably as a consequence of public representatives who have not given enough voice to it. We want that to be recognised. We want the request for a family resource centre to be based in evidence, awareness and acknowledgement that there is a community here looking to step up and see itself as part of that State infrastructure, to confront the challenges which it recognises but for which also it sees the solutions.

Deputy Niamh Smyth

The Deputy is right in what he said that they can be the heart and soul and can be designed in such a way that they really respond to the nuances of a community, because communities' needs are not always the same. It is a real opportunity when a new application process is opened. The Deputy is well entitled to stand here and advocate for the Cabra centre, especially when, as he said himself, it will be highly competitive. Cabra is as deserving as anywhere else in the country.

The Deputy is right that these will have to be backed up. I am sure Department officials will look at all the applications, facts, deprivation, needs and perhaps new communities living in the area. All that must be taken into account.

Teach Na nDaoine in Monaghan town is another exemplar, if I was to use one, for what it can achieve. There is even a community shop there along with educational services and many wrap-around services as well as after-school services. If there are any new ideas, the centre is doing it. I encourage the Deputy's group in Cabra to go to Monaghan and have a chat with the centre there. It has been on the go for 20 years so it has hit all the loopholes and different challenges. For community groups to get something like this up and running is not easy but as the Deputy said himself - and I am telling him here tonight - there is a great opportunity with the scheme just newly opened and money set aside and ring-fenced for it. The Minister, Deputy Foley, has her heart and soul behind these centres because there is one in her own community too. She feels very strongly for them and I am sure if she could roll out ten in one year, she would.

I wish the Deputy well in advocating for Cabra and as I said, throwing his weight behind it and standing up for the community there I am sure will go a long way in ensuring it gets its family resource centre.

Traffic Management

Deputy John Brady

I welcome the Minister of State who I am sure is familiar with the N11 road which runs through my constituency of Wicklow. It is gridlocked most days - both northbound and southbound - with people commuting from working in the city centre and people going about their daily lives. In the national development plan, there was a commitment to carry out a major upgrade - a critical upgrade - to the N11 and a considerable amount of work was done to bring forward a plan to see that major upgrade.

Unfortunately, due to ideological reasons on the part of the former Minister for Transport, Eamon Ryan, funding at the end of phase 2 was pulled for that major upgrade scheme in 2022. In its place, we have what is called the N11-M11 bus priority interim scheme along the N11, which goes southbound as far as the Glen of the Downs. I am all for public transport but I am also all for common sense and unfortunately, what we are seeing in the proposal is not common sense. The proposal put forward by TII, Wicklow County Council and other bodies behind this project, plans to close off a critical artery that runs into Bray, namely, the Herbert Road, by closing both access on and off the N11 via the Herbert Road.

The Herbert Road is a vital artery that runs into Bray. There are only four major roads in and out of the town and the Herbert Road is one of them. There is chronic congestion within the town of Bray at present and the Herbert Road acts as a release mechanism. It helps alleviate much of the traffic and congestion in the town centre, allowing people coming home from work, going to school, going to work, etc., to bypass the town centre and come in off the N11 via the Herbert Road.

Despite a public consultation process in which thousands of submissions were made, including a number of petitions containing more than 4,500 signatures both from residents and businesses in the town voicing their complete opposition to the closure of the Herbert Road, at the end of phase 2 and the publication of the option selection report which came out in April of this year, all those concerns voiced by the many thousands of residents, businesses and other people who use the road unfortunately fell on deaf ears. In that report, it was still recommended to move forward to phase 3 and to close off the Herbert Road.

I cannot tell the Minister of State enough how important that road is to the residents of the area. A couple of years ago, the road was closed off to allow for some critical works to be carried out. A pedestrian crossing, public lighting, etc., were put in and that access point was closed off for a couple months to facilitate that work. It brought not just the localised area around that section of the Herbert Road to a gridlock but also the entire town of Bray.

The Minister of State has the power, and the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, has the power at this stage at the end of phase 2 to intervene, similarly to what Eamon Ryan did when he was Minister, to stop this illogical, nonsensical and crazy proposal at this stage and to allow common sense to prevail.

Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Seán Canney)

My apologies, I was not here at the very start. I thank Deputy Brady for raising this matter.

The Minister for Transport has responsibility for overall policy and Exchequer funding regarding the national roads programme. Once funding arrangements have been put in place with Transport Infrastructure Ireland under the Roads Acts 1993 to 2015, and in line with the national development plan, the operation and management of individual national roads is a matter for TII in conjunction with the local authorities concerned. TII ultimately delivers the national roads programme in line with Project Ireland 2040, the national planning framework and the NDP.

The Government has earmarked €5.1 billion for capital spending on new national roads projects from 2021 to 2030 as part of the NDP. This funding will enable improved regional accessibility across the country, as well as compact growth, which are key national strategic outcomes. The funding will provide for the development of numerous national road projects, including the completion of projects which are already in construction stage and those close to it, as well as the development of several other projects. As the greater portion of this funding becomes available in the second half of the decade, there is a constraint on the funding available for new projects in 2025. Approximately €502 million in Exchequer capital funds, however, has been provided for national roads through TII to local authorities in 2025.

With regard to the N11 bus priority interim scheme, this important project commenced in October 2021 following the completion of an initial feasibility study. The aim is to provide bus priority measures on the N11 and M11, enabling buses and coaches to avoid congested traffic lanes and reduce the unsustainable dependency on the private car in the short to medium term. The project was allocated €1.45 million for this year to enable it to progress. Wicklow County Council is now working on closing out the preferred option for the combined scheme.

The public consultation for the emerging preferred option was held from 12 September to 6 November 2023. I understand from TII that all submissions were considered and detailed traffic modelling was conducted to inform the preferred option. A significant upgrade of junction 7 is proposed that will address the traffic reassignment arising from the impact of closing Herbert Road, which is required to provide bus priority in the hard shoulder between junctions 6 and 7. This is also intended to improve road safety for all users on the N11 and M11.

Wicklow County Council has commenced design and environmental evaluation. The option selection report includes the full rationale and detailed assessment carried out in determining the preferred option. The report was published on the project website in April and is now available to view.

It is important to highlight the N11 and M11 route is identified within the NTA’s transport strategy for the greater Dublin area, GDA, 2022 to 2042 strategy, as a regional core bus corridor as part of the core bus network. To develop an efficient, reliable and effective bus system, the strategy emphasises the need for the core bus network to be developed to achieve: continuous priority for bus movement on the portions of the core bus network; enhanced bus lane provisions on these corridors; and removal of current delays on the bus network, enabling the bus to provide a faster alternative to car traffic along these routes.

Deputy John Brady

I appreciate the Minister of State's response and while I acknowledge he is reading from information he has been given, unfortunately, it will not be much comfort - if any comfort at all - to the residents in Bray who are seriously concerned about the closure of this junction and the impact it will have. As for hearing one of the intentions regarding closing the road is to improve road safety for all users of the N11 and M11, it could not be further from the truth because the Herbert Road junction actually alleviates a lot of the pressures on the N11.

I dare the Minister, the Minister of State or Darragh O'Brien to get a Garda report to see how many road traffic accidents have actually happened at that junction. I cannot recall any accidents whatsoever there, so what was said was a false argument.

Unfortunately, the €1.45 million that is being spent on the project this year is a waste of money. so it needs to stop now. Bray is due to expand considerably over the coming years. Thousands of new homes are being built in the town centre. Junction 7 is gridlocked as it is. Building a larger roundabout is being proposed, but look at the Red Cow roundabout and the challenges it has. The same will happen with junction 7 if one of the vital arteries in and out of the town closes. Common sense needs to prevail. A bus corridor can go ahead without the junction closing. I do not believe it is a case of one or the other. The two can go ahead. There is an engineering solution to this issue that would be acceptable to everyone. The residents want their voices heard. They do not feel their voices have been heard in the consultation process. Will the Minister of State agree to meet a small delegation of the residents and listen first hand to their experience as well as to their concerns and fears about this scheme going ahead and the impact it will have on them and their livelihoods?

Deputy Seán Canney

A benefit of doing this project will be to improve the congestion issues faced by road users by increasing capacity on the existing route and identifying opportunities for bus priority measures. This will allow for more reliable and safer journeys for commuters and vulnerable road users. It aims to reduce the frequency and severity of collisions along this route. The proposed project will improve connectivity between Dublin Port and Rosslare Europort, allowing efficient and greater access to international markets from Ireland. In addition, the project may include the provision of improved active transport facilities and opportunities for greater interface with public transport along the N11, which will have positive environmental effects. There are benefits to this project.

Deputy John Brady

People will be stuck in traffic.

Deputy Seán Canney

The current status of the project is to provide for the bus priority measures, active travel, junction safety and strategic network resilience on the N11-M11 between junctions 4 and 14. This major scheme is at the options selection phase - preferred route open selection. It is important that we look at this in the context that it is being delivered by TII in conjunction with Wicklow County Council. Wicklow County Council considered all submissions received when assessing the various options.

Deputy John Brady

I asked about meeting a delegation of the residents. Unfortunately, the county council and TII are not listening to the public representatives or the residents.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú)

Okay. The Deputy put his question.

Deputy John Brady

I asked the Minister of State about meeting the residents. There are still 27 seconds of time remaining for the Minister of State to respond.

Driver Test

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I am glad to get the opportunity to ask about the problem we have in Kerry with the delay in youngsters getting their driving tests. This is an important issue. Boys and girls have to wait for up to six months to get their driving test, which is far too long for a young learner driver to have to wait, particularly in rural areas of Kerry where there is no public transport option and driving is the only option. Many young people cannot take up job offers, apprenticeships or college courses, as they would have to have a parent, brother, sister or grandparent with them going to and from wherever they needed to go, even with their L-plates displayed. This is not practical because everyone in today's Ireland is busy doing his or her own job and time is precious.

On top of that, doing the test is a costly process. A learner driver must first pass a theory test and do a minimum of 12 lessons before applying for a test. The delay in getting a driving test means learners are paying higher insurance costs for longer.

The other issue in Kerry is that there are only two driving test centres, those being, in Killarney and Tralee. Kerry is badly in need of another test centre in the south in Cahersiveen. It is 50 miles away from Killarney and even longer away from Tralee. In response to my recent parliamentary question, I was advised that the RSA was increasing testing capacity and the Department of Transport last September sanctioned an additional 70 permanent posts for driver testers. Holy God, but where are the 70 testers? It is worse the situation is getting, day by day. I raised this matter at exactly this time last year, when we were told at the Oireachtas committee that 30 new testers were being appointed. I do not know who the man from the RSA was, but he said that most of them were being centred around Dublin. Dublin has all kinds of public transport, which we do not have in rural parts of Kerry. Will the Minister of State do something about this? It will get worse during the summer months because the testers go on holidays like everyone else. The six months will become eight months. That happened last year as well. Something realistic has to be done. I will give examples of young fellows and girls who want to go to work or do apprenticeships. Many cannot go to college.

Another issue is the system is being clogged up with people who leave a place like Barraduff in Kerry and go over to the USA for a number of years - it is not for ten years or anything like it - and when they come back, they must do the whole driving test over again if their licences expired while they were away. I met a man who came home to Scartaglin and thought he could exchange the licences he held. He held many licences to drive anything - buses, diggers, bulldozers and everything else - but he cannot get his licences changed. He is about 59 or 60 years of age and he is going to Australia because his licences are accepted there. Likewise, Australian licences are recognised in Ireland. However, American licences are not recognised. That is ridiculous. It is clogging up the system.

Deputy Seán Canney

I am glad the Deputy raised this question because it is a problem throughout the country. I understand his frustration.

I will first provide an outline. The Road Safety Authority Act 2006 gave statutory responsibility for the national driver test service to the RSA. At the end of April, the average estimated time for invitation to test for a candidate was 25 weeks. I am told the waiting time for invitation to test in Kerry is 23.5 weeks, so what the Deputy said was the truth. This is far above the acceptable service-level agreement target of ten weeks. Measures are being taken to address this issue.

As the population has grown in recent years, the demand on driver testing services has similarly increased. In 2024, the busiest year in the history of the service, more than 250,000 driving tests were conducted, up from over 196,000 in 2023. This increase in demand for driving tests and the time to invitation for learner drivers has a number of contributing factors. These include an increase in learner permits in circulation, increased capacity in the driver theory test and an increase in advanced driving instructors' capacity to deliver lessons to learner drivers.

My Department has sought to support the RSA in meeting rising demand through a number of staffing sanctions in recent years. Most recently, in September 2024, the Department sanctioned an additional 70 permanent positions for driver testers.

This increases the total permanent sanction for testers to 200, which represents a doubling of testers since June 2022.

As a condition of sanction, the RSA was required to put a plan in place to restore the ten-week waiting time target as soon as possible. When this plan was first put forward by the RSA, it envisaged a return to the target by November 2025. This is not acceptable given the level of delays already being suffered by learner drivers. I met RSA representatives last week to discuss this issue and instructed the authority to return in two weeks with sustainable proposals which will provide a faster resumption to the service level agreement of ten weeks.

The recruitment process for additional testers is well under way, with the first tranche of new testers now being deployed into service. These testers are being assigned to test centres nationwide as the candidates complete their training. As additional testers enter the system, testing capacity will increase and progress should be made on reducing the numbers.

The Deputy may be aware that driver testing is offered on Saturdays where driver testers are available to do overtime and there are also additional morning and evening test slots offered where daylight allows. This has been the case since the current backlog in driving tests started to build up. To further assist with reducing waiting times, in October 2023, a change was made to the system to allow any unused slots to be made available for anyone to take up at short notice. If a driving test is cancelled at short notice, the RSA makes this appointment available to candidates on the MyRoadSafety portal.

While new testers will bring additional capacity in the short term, in the longer term it is intended that the RSA will be reformed consequent to a Government decision of November 2024. This reform will be carried out on a phased and planned basis. A departmental group led by the Department of Transport and comprising relevant stakeholders is tasked with developing a comprehensive implementation plan, including required legislation, to ensure the reform delivers road safety benefits and an improved customer experience.

I assure the Deputy that I am engaging with the RSA on an ongoing basis on proposals to reduce wait times to ten weeks.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I thank the Minister of State for his reply, but most of that information was contained in an answer to a parliamentary question I tabled a number of weeks ago and we are still the same way. It was the same last year when I raised the issue at an Oireachtas committee. The truth is, Dublin is being looked after but places like Kerry are not. That is the God's gospel truth. All of the children and youngsters of the country must be treated equally. People in Kerry are not being treated in the same way as people up here in Dublin are, and they have all kinds of public transport up here. If the test cannot be carried out in ten weeks, surely the candidate who has done the driver theory test, the 12 lessons and all that is required, should be allowed to drive and given an amnesty until the test comes. These youngsters need to get going. We were all young at one time. We wanted to get out on the road safely and carefully. These people can do that and they have to be trusted and given the chance to go to work or college.

I know a young fella from Cordal who wanted to go back to milk his uncle's cows because something had happened to his uncle. It was 6 or 7 miles along a country road. He cannot do it because he has been waiting for ages to be called for his driving test. The uncle badly needs his nephew, who cannot go to help him. It is not fair. The Minister of State will have to do something. If the RSA is not able to respond or to do the job, something else will have to be done. In the meantime, give the young fellas who have their driving lessons and theory test done one chance and that will put more of an onus on them to drive carefully. Give them an amnesty to drive until they are called for their tests. That would be a fairer way of doing it because the system is out of all order and is gone beyond the beyond.

We have been at this for three years. I was at this issue as hard as this last year and challenged the man from the RSA who said he was giving most of the 30 posts to Dublin. That is not fair. We have not seen any of the 70 testers who were supposed to have been taken on last September. There is no sign of them down in Kerry. It is actually getting worse. As I said at the start, come July and August, there will be no cover because the fellas we were supposed to have will be gone on holidays and the young fellas will be on the side of the road with their thumbs up.

Deputy Seán Canney

I recognise and feel the Deputy's frustration because I know and feel it myself in my own constituency. People contact me to say their test has been postponed up to five or six times. They are young people, healthcare workers, the whole shooting match. I assure the Deputy that I am treating this as an emergency. I met RSA representatives last week and asked them to come back to me next week with firm proposals on what will happen. I will work with them very closely to make sure there are improvements. We have to maintain the integrity of the driving test and make sure everybody is safe on the road. I hear the Deputy's suggestion of giving an amnesty, but under current regulations and rules, that may not be feasible. I assure the Deputy all options are being considered to help to address the backlog that exists. It is not right. The service is not right and it needs to be rectified.

I thank the Deputy for expressing the frustration in Kerry the way he has expressed it. It is felt throughout the country, sadly, and I will work to make sure we get this matter rectified in conjunction with the RSA. At the end of the day, we want to make sure we have a service that will deliver tests within ten weeks. It is very important and the money has been allocated for these new testers to be trained up. The issue is that they have to be trained and brought out to conduct the testing. I am looking at a variety of options to try to speed up that process in order that we have as many people as possible out testing and that in no place in the country will people be waiting for more than ten weeks for a test. That is my aim and ambition and I want to get that done as quickly as possible. I will work with the RSA to make sure we deliver that.

Medicinal Products

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

The Minister of State has sat in a lot of parliamentary party meetings with me and I know this is an issue she is very familiar with because I have raised it every second week. I appreciate the Minister of State being here this evening. I do not mean to sound dismissive but I can almost predict the answer she will give to me. I half know the answers to some of the questions I have posed which relate to why we approve so few new cancer drugs, why there are delays in the system and the third part of my question, which is centred around proposals for the future and how we improve the process.

I will start by stating a couple of facts relating to today's publication from the European Federation of Pharmaceutical Industries Association. It published a report today which essentially gives a descriptor of what is going on in this country in regard to new cancer drugs, in particular, and a couple of facts stood out. First, 48% of all innovative medicines are unavailable in this country in comparison with our EU counterparts. Only 29% of those drugs are actually fully available in Ireland, the remainder being partially available or having some restrictions on them and varying from drug to drug. Second, the rate of availability for non-oncology - non-cancer - drugs is 22% compared with the EU average of 39%. Again, we are way behind the curve in comparison with our EU counterparts. Third, only 25% of non-oncology drugs are available in Ireland compared with our EU counterparts, where an average of 31% of those non-oncology drugs are available. Finally, 25% of the 56 new cancer treatments licensed by the European Medicines Agency since 2020 are available in Ireland, so only one in four cancer drugs available widely across Europe are available in this country.

I can nearly predict the answer from the Department of Health that the Minister of State will read. The problems are quite apparent for me. We have a system that is one size fits all, so when we assess drugs in this country, we assess them on a quality threshold, that is, the quality of years that is added to somebody's life. Unfortunately in this country, we also operate a quality threshold of €45,000, so if a drug costs more than €45,000 per patient, it is automatically rejected. However, it takes almost a year to find that out formally through the process, so a lot of time is wasted.

It takes the average orphan drug 710 days to get to market authorisation in Ireland. By comparison, for our EU counterparts, it is an average of 607 days.

I will leave the Minister of State with these two statements. Back in 2017, the then Minister for Health, Deputy Simon Harris, actually described this system as being broken. Predating that, the former head of the HSE, Mr. Tony O'Brien, commented that the system is producing the results it is designed to produce. What I see the system doing is essentially knocking industry and the Department of Health or the HSE into a protracted negotiation that takes somewhere between two and three years, if patients are lucky. Unfortunately, for me as a public representative, it is patients in the middle who get caught out and lose time in terms of treatment and improving their life chances, extending their lives in some cases.

I understand these drugs are expensive. There is nobody here expecting us to break the bank or break the State but other countries do it far better and far more efficiently than us. That has to be recognised, and we need to get to the crux of the matter. I welcome some inclusions in the programme for Government, which I might talk to the Minister of State about in the supplementary.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Mary Butler)

I thank the Deputy and I acknowledge his constant advocacy with regard to new cancer drugs and drugs in general. I am taking this question on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill.

As the Deputy knows, the HSE has statutory responsibility for medicine pricing and reimbursement decisions under the Health (Pricing and Supply of Medical Goods) Act 2013. Reimbursement is for licensed indications that have been granted marketing authorisation by the European Medicines Agency or the Health Products Regulatory Authority.

In making a reimbursement decision, the HSE is required under the Act to have regard to a number of criteria including efficacy, the health needs of the public, cost effectiveness and potential or actual budget impact. HSE decisions on which medicines are reimbursed by the State via public funds are made on objective, scientific and economic grounds, and having regard to the advice of the National Centre for Pharmacoeconomics. There are formal processes that govern applications for the pricing and reimbursement of medicines, and new uses of existing medicines, to be funded or reimbursed or both.

An external review of this process, published in 2023, found it to be operating in line with international norms. In the same year, 50% of applications for reimbursement progressed following a rapid review without the need for a full health technology assessment. Recommendations made in the review have been implemented. These include the introduction of an application tracker to enhance transparency within the pricing and reimbursement process and enhancing the capacity across the process with the recruitment of 34 additional staff.

The timing of company applications for new medicine reimbursement in different countries can vary for several reasons, not least the available market share in each country. Once a company responsible for the commercialisation of a new medicine receives marketing authorisation, it can apply for reimbursement in the country or countries of its choice. Ireland, by virtue of its size and market share, may not always be prioritised by a company in the first stages of marketing a new product.

Reports describing timelines for reimbursement from EMA approval to HSE reimbursement approval do not consider this important factor and misrepresent the process, as statutorily the HSE is not able to add a new medicine to the reimbursement list unless an application is received. Additionally, the initial commercial offering from manufacturers for medicines can have significant implications for the negotiation process, including its duration. In the context of a finite health budget, it is vital that the State ensures good value for money for public expenditure and to ensure that the available budget maximises as much access as possible to medicines and other healthcare services for patients.

The State acknowledges the importance of access to medicines and has made considerable investments in new medicines in recent years. In 2023, a record €3 billion of public funding was spent on medicines for patients in Ireland, so it is not that we are not spending a huge amount of funding on drugs. This €3 billion out of the full budget represents almost €1 of every €8 spent by the State on healthcare. In the last three years, over €645 million was spent on medicines to treat patients with cancer, and investment in such treatments continues to be a priority. I take on board the statistics the Deputy articulated at the start, and I will bring them to the attention of the Minister.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I thank the Minister of State. I will point out a few things relative to the script she has there. The first thing is that we are spending €3 billion on drugs. That is a fact; I cannot dispute it. It is likely to be €4 billion before too long and it is going to continue to increase as the innovations in drugs and treatment continue to progress. That should be a good thing because it saves people going into hospitals or into long-term care, and it saves us by giving people the opportunity to be productive in society and partake if their ailment is identified early enough and they can get the appropriate treatment. It is just a fact that we are going to spend more and more on drugs into the future. That needs to be embraced because with regard to the innovation that is out there, it is eye-opening to see what we can do and what we can treat.

The issue I have regards the assessments. I am surprised that the Department did not make any attempt at putting its own figures with respect to the figures I quoted. The truth of the fact is it does not have them, or if it does have them it never discloses them. It is concerning to me that the Department of Health would not have access to those timelines. If the Department is going to dispute the timelines here by the EFPIA, I would like to think it has its own statistics and waiting times but it does not have them, and I find that very concerning.

The one big difficulty I have with this is that whether people in this House know it or not, we are actually overseeing the implementation of a two-tier health system by proxy. What I mean by that is I am lucky enough to have private health insurance, and there are people in this country today who, depending on their provider and the cover they have, can access these very expensive drugs. People on the public system, if those drugs are still awaiting reimbursement, cannot access those drugs and that is not a health system we should be standing over. That is why, in the programme for Government, we were happy to see the inclusion of early access programmes for certain drugs for certain cancer sufferers, and we got a commitment that the overall reimbursement process for drugs would be reviewed. The one thing I would ask the Minister of State to take away to the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, tonight is to ensure that the commitments in the programme for Government are initiated now, and we are not having this conversation in two years' time again, trying to instigate them at that point.

Deputy Mary Butler

I thank the Deputy. The level of investment in recent years is unprecedented in supporting patients through the availability of the latest and wide-ranging medicines. Since 2020, €128 million has been made available to fund access to 217 new medicines, including 74 for treating cancer and 57 for treating rare diseases. For 2025, an additional €30 million will be made available to enable access to new medicines. This will come directly from efficiencies to be achieved by the HSE.

It is important to go back to the statement that once the company responsible for the commercialisation of a new medicine receives marketing authorisation, it can apply for reimbursement in the country or countries of its choice. Ireland, by virtue of its size and market share, may not always be prioritised by a company in the first stages and that has to be taken on board.

Second, the pharmaceutical industry must also play its part. Ireland is open for business and encourages timely applications for reimbursement with reasonable pricing offers. We are confident this will support improved access to medicines in Ireland, including in the area of oncology. I thank the Deputy and I will bring what he has said back to the Minister.

Education Policy

Deputy John Clendennen

This afternoon, I attended an event in Buswells Hotel hosted by Engineers Ireland, where it was stated that 65% of the children in our primary schools today will work in jobs that do not exist yet. I recently attended Banagher College to celebrate the Laois-Offaly ETB STEAM showcase event that recognises more inspiring projects in robotics, coding and virtual reality; initiatives that are truly reshaping Offaly's future, bridging the gap left behind by the end of peat production and equipping our youth for tomorrow's opportunities.

The challenges associated with a transition away from peat-fired power were well flagged but the county did not sit back in its efforts to enable the next generation.

Science, technology, engineering, arts and maths, STEAM, were highlighted as an area for opportunity. The local authority set the pace with the introduction of the VEX IQ Robotics Competition. In 2018, only 16 schools registered for the competition; in 2024, that number increased to 82. I acknowledge the work of Ray Bell at Offaly County Council in pioneering this area, which is now a true success story. From that initial seed sown by Ray and his council colleagues, the culture has evolved with a can-do attitude. At the heart of this transformation is a strong partnership of local government and academic and enterprise partners coming together through the midlands regional enterprise plan. Supported by the EU transition fund and led by the local authorities of Laois, Longford, Offaly and Westmeath, this collaboration is driving a forward-thinking agenda.

The LOETB STEAM programme is now a cornerstone of that vision at secondary level, creating spaces for curiosity, sparking innovation and enabling students to build skills that mirror the modern workplace by way of initiatives such as coding and robotics, the Lego League, Minecraft, virtual reality tours and podcasting, to name just a few. I have been delighted to interact with some of those initiatives and meet the students involved. There are many benefits to equipping our youth with 21st-century skills through critical thinking, creativity, collaboration and communication in a fun environment. When, for example, a team programmes a VEX robotic to navigate an obstacle course, members learn coding and how to solve problems under pressure, divide roles and meet deadlines. When students produce a podcast in a state-of-the-art studio, they master digital tools and find their voice. These experiences boost confidence, spark innovation and drive engagement with science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, subjects, leading more students to opt for computer science at leaving certificate level. There is a positive community impact in bringing young people together and building networks of support and belonging.

These initiatives showcase Offaly's creativity to parents, local businesses and broader communities, sending a message that our county is open for innovation and investment. The midlands ICT action plan forecasts 800 new jobs in the region over the next three to five years. We need a pipeline of skilled graduates. Programmes like these provide that pipeline, ensuring that our businesses can hire locally and our young people can choose to build careers at home. Momentum continues, with six schools in Offaly now teaching computer science at leaving certificate level, up from just one in 2021. More than 3,000 students engage in robotics each year. We have success stories such as that of Alex Dunne from Clonbullogue, who has progressed to McLaren's driver development programme and who tested for the first time today in Formula One, thanks in part to the problem-solving and engineering mindset nurtured by the STEAM programme as implemented in our schools. We must continue to build, innovate and invest in children in primary schools who will, in future, work in jobs that do not yet exist.

Deputy Mary Butler

I thank the Deputy for his very interesting contribution. I am responding on behalf of the Minister for Education and Youth. I agree with every word he said.

As Minister of State with responsibility for mental health services, I am aware that extracurricular activities play a key role in helping learners to grow and succeed, both in and out of the classroom, and especially in regard to their emotional health and well-being. By taking part in sports, music, art, debate, volunteering and other clubs or competitions, young people build important life skills such as teamwork, time management and leadership, which are really important in their future careers. These experiences allow students to discover their strengths, develop confidence and express themselves creatively. They also provide a valuable way for learners to make friends and feel part of a group. All of this contributes to better well-being, stronger school engagement and improved learning outcomes. Through extracurricular activities, learners have the chance to explore new interests and build habits that support lifelong learning. They become more motivated, more resilient and better prepared for future study, training or work.

I was interested to hear about the various changes in computer science and other subjects across schools in Offaly. The activities help create well-rounded learners who are not only academically capable but also socially and emotionally confident. I recognise the importance of extracurricular activities and the significant role they play in enriching the learner experience. This is reflected in several strategies and policies from the Department of Education and Youth. The Literacy, Numeracy and Digital Literacy Strategy 2024-2033 highlights the value of learning that takes place outside formal settings. It acknowledges that supports for learners beyond the classroom have grown and continue to evolve. Similarly, the STEM Education Policy Statement 2017-2026 makes clear that STEM learning is not limited to schools or early years settings. It happens in a variety of spaces such as at home, in museums, during coding workshops, which the Deputy spoke about, and in the workplace. It offers huge opportunities for new learners.

One of the key actions in the policy statement is to "[p]rovide opportunities for all learners to take part in STEM through informal, co-curricular, and extra-curricular programmes". In line with this, the Department is proud to support national extracurricular programmes that encourage innovation, inquiry and participation. This includes funding for the Young Scientist and Technology Exhibition, SciFest, ESB Science Blast and the Engineers Ireland STEPS Programme. These initiatives inspire thousands of learners every year and help to promote creativity, problem-solving and teamwork in fun and engaging ways.

The Department greatly values the voice and contributions of young people. We recognise their active participation in a wide range of other projects and competitions such as VEX IQ Robotics and the Lego League. These opportunities are made possible through the combined efforts of schools, parents and learners, whose dedication and resourcefulness, particularly in fundraising, are vital to participation. However, due to the wide variety and growing number of opportunities now available, the Department has not been in a position to fund individual projects or competition entries. That said, the Minister fully acknowledges the importance of these experiences for learners and the exceptional work being done in schools to support them. The annual provision for STEM funding commitments is just shy of €900,000. A couple of the initiatives are seeking increases in funding to facilitate an increase in numbers participating and the rising costs of putting on those events. The Department is actively considering those requests, with decisions to be made shortly.

Deputy John Clendennen

In recent weeks, the debating team at St. Brendan's Community School, Birr, was crowned European debating champions. A team from Coláiste Choilm in Tullamore is in Texas right now competing in the VEX IQ Robotics Competition. Students from Sacred Heart school, Tullamore, will be in Texas next week, along with students from Cork and Kildare, all of whom will be competing against the best in the world from more than 50 countries. These achievements shine a global spotlight on our students and their country and underscore what is possible when we invest in them and instil a confidence that they truly are the best in the world. To sustain and expand those benefits, we must secure continued support for STEAM engagement officers, equipment, teacher training, scholarships and the crucial STEAM roles in every local authority. By doing so, we will strengthen rural communities, drive sustainable economic growth and ensure counties like Offaly remain a leader in digital innovation.

Finance should not be a barrier to student participation. Tubber National School had to fundraise to enable its students to travel to Texas last year. Both Coláiste Choilm and Sacred Heart School have carried out extensive fundraising for their trip to represent Ireland. A rolling funding scheme should be introduced to assist in funding schools that represent Ireland internationally in listed and recognised extracurricular subject competitions. We must provide all the support we can to ensure students have all the necessary resources to achieve their goals and enable us collectively to celebrate when they stand on a stage or podium and "Amhrán na bhFiann" is played. I ask that the Minister give consideration to introducing such a budget.

Deputy Mary Butler

I certainly will take the Deputy's request to the Minister. At present, the Department supports a number of national extracurricular programmes through core funding, including €400,000 for the Young Scientist and Technology Exhibition, €200,000 for SciFest, €250,000 for ESB Science Blast and €43,000 for the Engineers Ireland STEPS Programme. That gives a total of €893,000. These programmes have broad national reach and strong alignment with curricular and strategic goals. However, I fully recognise the demand for broader support, particularly for schools wishing to participate in a growing number of local, national and international competitions. The Deputy mentioned the schools competing in Texas. The Minister has committed to reviewing the current approach to this area, including the potential for additional or more flexible funding models. While no dedicated fund has yet been established, this is a matter under active consideration and is subject to budgetary commitments. I have no doubt the Minister will consider this under the Estimates process for budget 2026. I will convey the Deputy's request to her. I congratulate all the schools that seem to be very high achievers in his area.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar athló ar 10.10 p.m. go dtí 8.47 a.m., Déardaoin, an 8 Bealtaine 2025.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.10 p.m. until 8.47 a.m. on Thursday, 8 May 2025.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 7 May 2025