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Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis debate -
Wednesday, 18 Feb 2015

Context Phase

Mr. Marco Buti

As we have a quorum I call the meeting to order. We will proceed with session one of this morning's business, which is a public hearing discussion with Mr. Marco Buti, Director-General for Economic and Financial Affairs. I welcome everyone to the ninth public hearing of the Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis. Later this morning we will hear from Dr. Donal Donovan, former IMF deputy director. At the first session this morning we will hear from Mr. Marco Buti from the European Commission on the international, EU and domestic policy context of the banking crisis in Ireland and, in particular, the European Commission's role in monitoring the Irish economy in the years prior to the crisis as part of the stability and growth process. Mr. Buti, you are welcome to the meeting and I would also like to acknowledge the Commission's positive engagement with this inquiry and for your co-operation this morning. The committee would like to put that on record.

Mr. Marco Buti has been Director-General for Economic and Financial Affairs at the European Commission since December 2008. After completing studies at the University of Florence and the University of Oxford, Mr. Buti joined the European Commission in 1987. He was an economic advisor to the Commission's President until 2003. From September 2003 to August 2006 he was Director for Economies of the Member States at the Directorate General for Economic and Financial Affairs where he was appointed Deputy Director-General in September 2006. Mr. Buti has also been a visiting professor at the Université Libre de Bruxelles, the University of Florence and the European University Institute, and has published extensively on EMU macroeconomic policies, welfare state reforms and European unemployment.

Before I begin I would advise witnesses that by virtue of section 17(2)(l ) of the Defamation Act 2009 witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the Chairman to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they have been informed previously that the committee is asking witnesses to refrain from discussing named individuals in this phase of the inquiry. Members are reminded of a long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that members should not comment upon, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

With that said if I can invite Mr. Buti to make his opening remarks and we will then move on to questions. Thank you very much, Mr. Buti.

Mr. Marco Buti

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. It is a real pleasure to be here in Dublin and an honour to have been invited to appear before this committee and its inquiry into the banking crisis. I have prepared quite a comprehensive statement. I will go through that because it sets out the framework for what the European Commission did at the time and how it read the challenges of the Irish economy before the crisis.

I have been asked to deliver a statement on the role of the European Commission in the Irish economy in the years prior to the crisis. I will structure my statement in two parts. The first part will focus on the economic development in the run up to the crisis, both international and domestic. In the second part, I will review the role of the European Commission in economic surveillance at that time.

When analysing economic growth in Ireland before the banking crisis, it is useful to distinguish two different periods, from the early 1990s until 2000, and from about 2001 until the bursting of the housing bubble in 2007. The first period is often referred to as the Celtic tiger period. It was a period of extraordinarily strong growth. The annual increase in real GDP averaged 7.2% as opposed to just above 2% in the euro area. As a result there was an impressive and unprecedented convergence in living standards. In 1990 gross national income per person stood at around 60% of the euro area average; ten years later it was already above the Euro area average. In the 1990s economic growth was led by exports. Ireland was able to take advantage of the single European market and globalisation. It raised exports in high value sectors such as computers and pharmaceuticals. Thanks to a flexible and English-speaking economy, Ireland attracted significant FDI inflows which boosted productivity growth and enhanced competitiveness. The current account recorded an average surplus of 1.6% in the 1990s. During this period employment growth was brisk with minimal wage pressure since unemployment was relatively high, female participation in the labour force low, and net inward migration flows increased the labour force. The unemployment rate fell from 13.4% in 1990 to 5.6% in 1999. Fiscal adjustment taken in the late 1980s to tackle the very high stock of public debts supported this expansion. Government spending restraint and salary agreements also underpinned wage moderation.

In the 1990s inflation was low, on average 2.3%, close to the average record in the Euro area as a whole. General Government debt fell by half to around 47% of GDP. The year 2000 marked the end of the ICT boom which had pushed growth rates in Europe and the US close to 4%.

By then, Ireland's real economic growth was close to 10%, wages were rising by more than 13% and annual inflation exceeded 5%. From about this point until the onset of the Irish banking crisis there was a striking shift in the Irish economy. The overall growth momentum remained strong, but became largely reliant on domestic demand. Between 2001 and 2007, real GDP growth averaged 5%, as opposed to close to 2% in the euro area. Average inflation increased to above 3%, while it stayed slightly above 2% in the euro area as a whole. Ireland had reached full employment. Wage pressure began to emerge and competitiveness deteriorated, with tight labour conditions.

Subsequently, export growth began to wane and export market share fell. The current account balance deteriorated and by 2007 it recorded a deficit of about 5.4% of GDP. Economic growth became increasingly reliant on construction. Interest rates had declined substantially and access to credit increased with Ireland's entry into EMU. This helped to trigger a boom in investment in housing and commercial property, with rapidly rising property prices. The positive wealth effects from rising housing prices also contributed to buoyant private consumption.

By the mid-2000s, the construction sector, especially its residential housing component, had become very large. Construction investment grew to about one fifth of GDP, the highest in the euro area. Employment growth also became increasingly reliant on the construction boom and the rate of unemployment fell to 4.4% in 2005. The proportion of those employed in construction peaked at an unprecedented level of about 13.5% in 2007. The construction sector benefited from strong inward migration flows, particularly from EU enlargement countries in 2004.

Nonetheless, the labour market remained tight, pushing up wages. The reallocation of resources into the housing sector, which was traditionally labour intensive and employed low-skilled workers, left limited room for improving productivity. House price inflation surged in Ireland and rose more than fourfold between 1993 and 2007, among the highest of any advanced economies.

On the demand side, demographic trends, higher disposable incomes, lower real interest rates and easier access to mortgage finance supported the booming property market. Government policies also played a role through the favourable tax treatment of housing, such as the deducibility of mortgage interest payments. The supply of housing also rose sharply, but eventually beyond the needs of the population. The idea that house prices would increase forever turned into a recurrent and dangerous motive.

One of the main factors which fuelled the housing boom was the rise in private sector credit. The private sector debt-to-GDP ratio rose to over 200 % by 2008. As the bulk of credit was supplied by banks, this led to a major expansion in banks' balance sheets. There was an increase in competition among the banks with many new entrants into the market, lending standards weakened and average loan-to-value ratios increased significantly. Lending to households and property developers soared, boosting private sector debt levels. Domestic banks also engaged in a rapid expansion of foreign activities. At the end, the Irish banking sector was severely oversized relative to the size of the local economy and the fiscal capacity of the Irish sovereign.

The lending boom by the Irish banks was facilitated by the international context during this period. Banks increasingly funded themselves easily on external wholesale markets as cross-border financial flows boomed in the international financial system, supported by low global interest rates. Moreover, EMU had eliminated currency risks within the euro area and this contributed to rising cross-border borrowing. As credit expanded faster than deposits, Irish banks became increasingly dependent on international market funding, leading to an unbalanced funding structure. This left banks vulnerable to the eventual tightening in international capital markets. Ireland was not the only such case; similar developments took place within the euro area in Spain.

The role of the Irish financial supervisor and regulator during the boom years has been extensively analysed and assessed by many observers. I understand there have been dedicated sessions on this issue in this forum. I, therefore, do not intend to elaborate at length. It may suffice to say that I agree with those who conclude that the domestic financial supervisor did not acknowledge and address the risks associated with the credit and housing boom. I also believe that the supervisors in the originating countries share some of the responsibility, but this is not to detract from the primary responsibility of the domestic supervisor, which has been widely acknowledged in Ireland.

More generally, supervisors in a number of member states did not seem to care sufficiently about the risks of rapid year-on-year loan growth, the increasing concentration of investment in the construction sector and the relative size of their banking sectors compared to GDP, and Ireland is probably the most extreme example of what can happen when these problems are ignored. More generally, supervisors in many member states were concerned almost exclusively with micro-prudential supervision, that is, checking the soundness of individual banks, and there was insufficient attention placed on macro-prudential supervision, that is, risks to the financial system as a whole.

The housing and lending boom also impacted Irish public finances. Government spending rose sharply as a percentage of GDP, financed by the additional tax revenues linked to the housing boom. The budget was in surplus as of 2003 and the general government debt declined to a low of 24.6% of GDP in 2006. We know that the structural budget balance, that is, the balance net of temporary components, was expansionary and contributed to the overheating of the economy. Revenues became overly reliant on the property market and the income tax base shrank due to successive tax cuts. This left the budget exposed to the ensuing downturn in the property market.

I have given the committee our assessment of the most important economic developments in Ireland in the years preceding the crisis. Let me now move on to how economic surveillance was implemented at the EU level during the boom period. I will start with the surveillance instruments that were available prior to 2007 and then move on to the question of how they were used in practice.

The European Commission acts as the guardian of the EU treaty. Within this general mandate, the Directorate General for Economic and Financial Affairs is the service in charge of economic policies. It carries out its duties, under the supervision of the competent member of the Commission, by monitoring and assessing economic developments in the member states, reporting on the findings of our assessment to member states directly and to the public at large and initiating specific surveillance procedures for member states where economic developments move outside or risk moving outside the perimeters laid down in EU legislation.

In the pre-crisis years, the EU framework for economic surveillance was a reflection of the principles enshrined in the Maastricht treaty. The treaty, which entered into force in 1993, laid the foundations of the economic and monetary union. Monetary policy was entrusted to the ECB while fiscal policy remained a prerogative of the member states, but to be carried out in line with commonly agreed rules.

The treaty also included a general provision, according to which member states "shall regard their economic policies as a matter of common concern and shall coordinate them within the Council". In the years following the entry into force of the Maastricht treaty, the EU strengthened fiscal surveillance via the Stability and Growth Pact. The same did not happen to structural policies. This asymmetry was not an oversight. It was a reflection of the macroeconomic paradigm prevailing at the time in Europe and beyond.

This paradigm, sometimes referred to as the "great moderation", reigned until 2007, the onset of the most severe economic and financial crisis in post-Second World War history.

According to the great moderation paradigm, overall macroeconomic stability was to be ensured by meeting two overarching conditions; one, low, steady inflation and, two, prudent and sustainable fiscal policy. Experience in advanced economies since the late 1980s corroborated this view especially when compared to the more unstable 1970s and early 1980s. Countries that kept their fiscal houses in order with inflation reasonably low and stable followed a relatively small path of macroeconomic development. Other macroeconomic compartments such as the financial sector, house price developments or the current account were not thought at the time to create major problems of their own. They were expected to be restrained by prudent monetary and fiscal policies. Today, we know this is not the case, but until 2007 the focus on macroeconomic surveillance in the EU was clear. The ECB looked after price stability with a very strong mandate and the European Commission monitored national fiscal policy making against the parameter of the Stability and Growth Pact, SGP.

There was also an instrument to co-ordinate economic policies beyond public finances, the so-called broad economic policies guidelines. However, this instrument amounted to soft co-ordination with no enforcement power. With benefit of hindsight, there is little consolation to be gained from the fact that not only Europe followed the great moderation paradigm in implementing monetary economic policy. It is important to underline that, with very few exceptions, the economic profession at large relied on this paradigm.

In the case of Ireland, how was the EU economic surveillance framework applied in this country in the years preceding the 2007 onset of the crisis? I will start in 2000 for three reasons. First, the SGP entered into force only in the late 1990s. Only since then can we speak of a functioning EU fiscal surveillance framework. Second, the early 2000s coincided with the onset of the second and less healthy part of the catching up process in the Irish economy. Third, in 2000, the Irish Government adopted a draft budget for 2001 which brought Ireland onto the Commission radar screen for the first time, signalling potential macroeconomic problems. Against this backdrop of clear signs of overheating in the Irish economy, budget talk was expansionary and risked adding fuel to the fire. On Wednesday, 24 January 2001, the Commission issued a critical opinion on the 2001-2003 stability programme. It concluded the Irish fiscal policy was inconsistent with the broad economic policies guidelines adopted by the European Council six months earlier. Those guidelines had asked Ireland to avoid further overheating of its economy by containing public expenditure. In parallel to the critical opinion on the Irish problem, the Commission also recommended to the Council to ask the Irish Government under article 99(4) of the Maastricht treaty to take countervailing measures in the course of 2001. The ECOFIN Council adopted the recommendation on Monday, 12 February 2001. As some of you may remember, the recommendation was not very well received in Ireland at the time and it was not implemented. Many in the economic profession derided the Commission, accusing us of focusing more on decimals rather than acknowledging the strength of the Irish economy.

As guardian of the treaty, the Commission played its role well, based on the information available at the time. There was a clear inconsistency between the Government's budgetary plans on the one hand and the economic policy guidance endorsed by the European Council on the other. Picking up on this inconsistency, and within the existing surveillance framework, the Commission put in motion the relevant wheels and the Council followed. At this point, I should stress that all EU surveillance documents, including the Commission technical assessment, the stability programmes updates, the Commission recommendation for a Council opinion and the Council opinion, are all available on the website of the DG.

In retrospect, the assessment of whether the 2001 Council recommendation to Ireland was a good idea or not is less clear cut, even controversial. As we know, the ICT bubble burst in the course of 2001, triggering a sharp economic slowdown in the US and Europe. Ireland was also affected. Quarterly GDP growth moved from more than 13% in question one of 2001 to almost stagnation in question four. With the Irish economy cooling off so abruptly, the Council's call for a tighter budget to avoid overheating did not seem particularly appropriate any longer. Later in 2001, when the assessment of the 2002 budgets and stability programme updates were due, the Council reviewed its assessment. On a recommendation from the Commission, it issued an opinion that approved the budget plans of the Irish Government. The Council still urged Ireland to aim for a neutral fiscal stance. However, the assessment no longer raised any major issues. The case of the 2001 recommendation under Article 99(4) of the treaty for Ireland was closed.

At the time, the Commission was right in stressing the need to avoid a pro-cyclical fiscal expansion in a boom period, even if due to the unexpected burst of the ICT bubble the recommendation turned out to be ill-timed. In the subsequent years, the Commission did not shy away from taking a critical view of Irish fiscal policy-making. On the contrary, the annual technical assessments of the Commission of the successive stability programme updates regularly expressed concerns about strong Government expenditure growth and only moderate budgetary improvements in the face of a solid economic recovery. In the years after 2001, Commission recommendations for a Council opinion on the Irish stability programmes consistently urged Ireland to strictly control public expenditure, including through the implementation of an effective expenditure framework. The first such call was already included in the 2002 Council opinion, but did not fall on fertile ground in Ireland. Helped by the growing influx of revenue from the housing boom, the Government successively increased expenditure and lowered taxes.

As the Government deficit remained below the Maastricht limit of 3% of GDP, the post-2001 Council opinions did not identify any formal conflict with existing EU fiscal rules. At the same time, the Commission assessment did indicate a few points which, with the benefit of hindsight, turned out to be crucial. For instance, the Commission regularly stressed the uncertainty surrounding estimates of the structural budget balance for the Irish economy - that is, the budget balance net of temporary components. After 2002, the Commission noted several times that the Irish Government's targets for the general government budget balance may not have been particularly ambitious in view of the very solid recovery of economic growth. Underlying this message was the sense that the structural fiscal position was weaker than the official estimate suggested, but there was no way to substantiate this view. The method agreed by the ECOFIN Council in 2002 to estimate the structural budget balance for the purposes of EU fiscal surveillance did not signal any specific problem for Ireland.

The second point the Commission underlined clearly in its post 2001 assessments was the strong contribution of construction to economic growth. In its 2005 assessment of update of the Irish stability programme, the Commission identified the very high valuation of existing housing stock and a possible sharp downturn from the extended residential construction boom as a downside risk to the economy and public finances. A year later, the Commission's assessment of the 2006 update explicitly referred to unsustainable levels of residential construction. Together with very high residential property prices, the construction boom was thought to carry the risk of a sharp downward adjustment in the wider economy.

Then again, the identification of risks linked to the construction boom did not translate into concrete surveillance actions. The EU economic surveillance framework at the time was centred on public finances and Ireland complied with existing rules. I am not trying to argue that the Commission saw everything coming, but could not do anything. What I am trying to say, however, is that the Commission did, within its remit, pinpoint issues which in retrospect turned out to be important, but then, even if we had anticipated the end of the economic boom and the beginning of a collapse in Ireland before 2007, we would not have had the legal tools for asking Ireland to take any corrective measures.

However, the lack of legal instruments was not the real constraint for EU surveillance. The real constraint was our limited understanding at the time of what could really endanger overall macroeconomic stability. Yes, we understood that the Irish housing boom would not be sustainable, but in line with the great moderation paradigm, we, as others, did not anticipate that the end of the housing boom could give rise to the dislocations that eventually emerged after 2007 which later led Ireland to ask for financial assistance from the EU and the IMF. The financial sector was thought to simply channel funds in an efficient manner to where the real economy needed them. Dangerous excesses were thought to originate only in monetary and fiscal policy making. This is evidenced by the fact that between 2001 and 2007 no Commission assessment of the Irish stability programme updates reviewed developments in the banking sector. Assessment of financial stability was not part of the broad economic policy guidelines process. Financial stability risks were mainly thought to be an issue for individual banks, not for the economy as a whole. Moreover, financial supervision was a national prerogative. My colleague Mr. Mario Nava, who came before the committee earlier this month, clarified this point. He stated that in the 2000s the EU regulatory framework followed a principle-based approach that was embodied in the principle of minimum harmonisation. National supervisory authorities were responsible for applying and enforcing the minimum prudential requirements set out in EU directives. We worked under the assumption that national supervisors and regulators would be well equipped to address any nascent stability issues in the banking sector. We assumed they would do their job in a conscientious manner.

The post-2007 financial and economic crisis showed us the hard way that our conceptual framework of the macro economy was incomplete. Ireland was a particularly drastic example, albeit not the only one. The sudden drop in residential house prices undermined the viability of most Irish banks and exposed a striking lack of supervisory and regulatory rigour. The Government had to step in with its deep pockets to stave off the collapse of the financial sector and the economy as a whole. Later, the Government's pockets had to be filled with international financial assistance as access to financial markets at sustainable rates had been lost. The rest is now history. At the end of 2013, Ireland successfully completed the EU-IMF financial assistance programme. While important challenges remain, the country is back on track towards balanced and sustainable growth.

As regards EU economic surveillance, the post-2007 financial and economic crisis has not been wasted. As you are aware, the EU immediately launched an important and far-reaching reform process to upgrade and complete its economic governance structure. First, the EU surveillance framework has been strengthened with the so-called six-pack. Secondly, the scope of EU surveillance has been extended to include all relevant instruments beyond public finances; this was achieved with the introduction of the macroeconomic imbalances procedure. This was also part of the six-pack initiative. Since 2001 the Commission has consistently monitored member states with imbalances in all areas of the macro economy. Third, the banking union was introduced, including in particular the Single Supervisory Mechanism and the Single Resolution Mechanism.

It would go beyond the scope of my intervention today to go through the details of all these institutional innovations and what they meant for EU economic governance. My colleague Mario Nava outlined the regulatory response at the EU level to the crisis. It may suffice to say that they constitute a major step forward. I am convinced they will help us not to repeat the mistakes of the past. I apologise for the length of my statement. Thank you for your attention.

Thank you very much, Mr. Buti. Just to get matters under way, the questioners this morning will be Senator Marc MacSharry and Senator Susan O'Keeffe, followed by Deputies John Paul Phelan, Eoghan Murphy, Joe Higgins, Kieran O'Donnell, Pearse Doherty and Michael McGrath, and Senators Sean Barrett and Michael D'Arcy.

Can Mr. Buti clarify how his role is different from that of the European Commissioner for Economic and Monetary Affairs and the Euro, the position previously held by Olli Rehn and currently held by Pierre Moscovici?

Mr. Marco Buti

We are responsible at the technical level. We respond to the Commission, and to the college of Commissioners; with the new structure of the Commission, we also respond to the Vice Presidents in charge of economic policy co-ordination, Vice President Dombrovskis and Vice President Katainen. We supply the technical analysis and we provide our assessment. The actual recommendations addressed to the Council and to the member states are approved by the college of Commissioners under the proposal of the Commissioner in charge. So there is a distinction here between technical and analytical responsibilities - and this is an equi-mandate responsibility - and the actual economic policy recommendations which pertain to the college of Commissioners and to the Commissioner in charge.

Mr. Buti said the Commission would not have had the legal tools to ask Ireland to take any corrective action; in that regard, in the absence of enforcement powers, what steps should the European Commission have taken in relation to non-fiscal policies across member states?

Mr. Marco Buti

At the time we had a very limited set of tools. Within the Stability and Growth Pact we focused essentially on two conditions, a general government deficit limit of 3% and a debt limit of 60%. Within the broad economic policy guidelines we could go beyond that, and we did, as I indicated, in 2001, but with unfortunately no enforcement powers. So we signalled a number of risks emerging. I think we called on Irish authorities to behave responsibly but we did not have at the time any enforcement mechanism. What we did, and what we have to do for all member states, is to conclude whether the updates of the stability programmes of Ireland and other member states formally complied with the principles and constraints of the Stability and Growth Pact. In the case of Ireland it is clear that throughout the period the former requirements were abided by.

I welcome Mr. Buti and thank him for taking the time to be with us. Can I ask Mr. Buti if there was a policy, written or otherwise, within the European Commission, that no bank should fail?

Mr. Marco Buti

There was never a recommendation on the part of the Commission on that subject. It was not addressed to the Irish policy makers. It was not addressed to any other country or institution. You will not find in our opinions or our recommendations, either on the stability programmes or national reform programmes, a recommendation of this sort.

To rephrase that, I know there is not a written policy, because if there was I would have it, but was there an established doctrine among you and your colleagues as Directors General within the Commission, and the Commissioners, that it would be best that no bank should be permitted to fail?

Mr. Marco Buti

No. I do not think there was this type of unwritten rule or implicit preference. As I indicated, throughout the pre-crisis period, and I understand we are focusing here essentially on that period - that is, before 2007 - our focus was essentially on fiscal and macroeconomic policies. I said clearly in my statement that between 2001 and 2007, in the various assessments of Irish documents, we never focused on the banks. In retrospect, I admit this was a failure. It was a problem, clearly.

This was a failure. Was there a contingency considered by the Commission if, for example, Ireland or any member state allowed a bank to fail?

Mr. Marco Buti

I think the issue was not part of our surveillance at the time. As I indicated, the focus was essentially on the fiscal, the monetary and the macroeconomic. As I have indicated, it was thought that in line with the great moderation paradigm, banks and financial systems would simply help to allocate resources in the most efficient way to the economy as long as fiscal and macroeconomic policy remained disciplined. Monetary policy was to remain in line with the price stability objective and fiscal policy was to remain in line with the constraints of the Stability and Growth Pact. This was the paradigm at the time. We know today that the focus was only partial, unfortunately. Since then, we have completed our set of tools. The focus of attention has moved well beyond these two elements - monetary and fiscal - to encompass the banking system as well. We have gone well beyond that with the creation of the banking union.

Just so we are absolutely clear, no contingency was considered if a member state allowed a bank to fail. Mr. Buti said in his statement that "the European Commission acts as the guardian of the EU treaty". I suggest that if a bank were allowed to fail, that might have implications for the European treaty. Was no contingency considered by the Commission?

Mr. Marco Buti

During the whole pre-crisis period, banks were considered to be well capitalised and solid. No particular problem was emerging in that period. As I indicated in my statement, and as Mr. Nava told this committee two weeks ago, responsibility for financial supervision and regulatory matters was at the national level and not at the European level. The principle of minimum harmonisation prevailed at the time. The responsibility was at the national level. The supervisors were national. There was minimum co-ordination at the time. The remit or responsibility of the EU did not extend to following up on these matters. We have amended the view and the framework since then with the six-pack, the two-pack, the banking union and the whole regulatory framework on the banking side.

Did the Commission have a contingency in the event of a sovereign default from a member state?

Mr. Marco Buti

When we entered monetary union, the basic co-ordination rules were enshrined in the Stability and Growth Pact and monetary policy was attributed to the European Central Bank. At the time, we did not have the full set of tools that was put in place later on. I refer to firewalls like the European financial stability facility and the European Stability Mechanism that have been put in place to help countries in trouble. We had the no-bailout rule which was enshrined in the treaty. At the time, this was considered to be sufficient to deal with these matters.

Okay. We are clear now that there was an incomplete set of tools. In Mr. Buti's own words, that was a mistake and a failure, with the benefit of hindsight. Is that fair?

Mr. Marco Buti

I think it is well understood by now that economic and monetary union was created and evolved over time. We did not have all the tools we have now. I think we have paid the price for that. The firewalls which were put in place when the sovereign debt crisis erupted were not there in the first place in the Maastricht treaty. This is clear. I think we are better equipped now because we have the firewalls with the European Stability Mechanism, and with the European financial stability facility before. They were also deployed in the case of the assistance that was given to Ireland.

Could the limited tools that the Commission had at its disposal have been better used in the context of the crisis here?

Mr. Marco Buti

I understand we are not talking here about the crisis period per se.

We are talking about the period leading up to it.

Mr. Marco Buti

I will talk about the pre-crisis period. Perhaps the committee will allow me to do a conceptual exercise. I will consider what would have happened if the tools available to us now had been available in the years before the crisis. Could they have helped us in preventing this?

I do not want to waste Mr. Buti's time or that of the committee of inquiry. That is not the question.

I might make an interjection at this point. Mr. Buti is very clear in his engagement with the committee. He understands that he may discuss the period leading up to the crisis period, rather than the crisis period itself. I will correct Senator MacSharry if he drifts into that area.

I appreciate that.

Perhaps the Senator might want to apply his question so that it relates specifically to whether mechanisms, firewalls and safeguards were in place and in the power of the Commission in the lead-up to the crisis period, but were not applied. I think that is the question he is asking. It has been asked. Maybe Mr. Buti can answer that and then we will go on to the Senator's next question.

Mr. Marco Buti

I will refer simply and very quickly to the macroeconomic imbalances procedure that is now available as part of the so-called six-pack. In the specific case of Ireland, four or five indicators would have flashed up in 2003 and 2004 on the scoreboard of indicators that we use to detect a macroeconomic imbalance. Those indicators might have related to housing prices, credit growth and loss of competitiveness in terms of real exchange rate developments, etc. We did not have this procedure at the time. If it had been available, we would certainly have put strong monitoring tools on Ireland and signalled the problem. Unfortunately, we did not do that because it was not part of the focus of economic monitoring under the great moderation paradigm.

Can I move on from that? It is unfortunate that we are not dealing with the period right up to 2010. I think it would be in the public interest, and in the interest of the inquiry, if preconditions were not set on people who are coming to give evidence. I do not think it is in the people's interest.

I can be very clear here. We had briefing sessions yesterday afternoon as part of our preparations for Mr. Buti's appearance before the committee.

If we want to go into that debate, we certainly can now. I would not be putting out the impression that preconditions have been set. This inquiry is going to be quite extensive in covering a number of areas.

Could I ask Senator MacSharry to revert to the purpose of Mr. Buti's appearance before the committee this morning and refer his questions in that regard?

I will. I am merely pointing out that it is difficult to get the whole truth, as the people might desire, if we are accepting preconditions from witnesses in advance. It is worth putting that on the record.

I would ask the Senator to-----

Moving on, can I ask-----

Excuse me, Senator MacSharry.

The Senator might be applying an aspersion with regard to a witness before this inquiry this morning, to the effect that he is operating in a way that is ambivalent or antagonistic towards this inquiry. I do not think that is actually a fair comment. Mr. Buti is very clear in the role for which he is here this morning. This committee is very clear in the role for which Mr. Buti is here this morning. The preparation work that was done by this committee, particularly in the extensive briefing last week, was clear about the realms we would be covering with Mr. Buti. This inquiry will be dealing extensively with matters right through the crisis period, and the strategies applied to it, as we move into the nexus phase. Mr. Buti is here for a particular purpose this morning. That is the role of the agency and position he had within the Commission in the pre-crisis period. Questions should be asked in that regard.

As I live in the here and now, I cannot help being influenced by current events when I am framing questions and looking back on the pre-crisis period. With that in mind, I could not help noticing in recent days that tax anticipation notes were pointed out during the ongoing negotiations on the Greek situation as a potential remedy to the difficulties being experienced in that country. I accept that this was not agreed.

I would appreciate it-----

If I could finish-----

Sorry Senator-----

I will make it relevant.

I have to advise the witness here. He is very clear on why he was invited before the committee this morning.

My question relates to the pre-2008 period.

If questions-----

My question relates to the pre-2008 period.

I will bring the Senator back in.

I hope the Chairman will allow for the time he is taking up as well.

I am advising the witness, which is my responsibility as Chair, because there are very clear terms of reference and we have legal responsibilities for this inquiry, particularly to witnesses coming before it. Mr. Buti, if questions move outside the purpose for which you are here, if you believe those questions are not within your competence to answer and if you believe you cannot provide a proper answer to this inquiry, I will leave that to your discretion as to how you wish to pursue that question.

As the Chairman said, if any answers are not within Mr. Buti's competence or he does not want to answer them, he should just point that out and we will know. As I was saying, I could not help noticing in recent days the consideration of tax anticipation notes as a suggestion from the Greek authorities as they seek to deal with their issues. There is no agreement and we all wish them well, I am sure. In the pre-2008 period, would consideration have been given at that time to measures such as tax anticipation notes as an assistance tool for a sovereign government within the EU in a banking crisis rather than the prescription of austerity as a budgetary approach?

Mr. Marco Buti

May I ask what the Senator means by tax anticipation?

A tax anticipation note is something that has been suggested by the Greek Finance Minister in recent days. They are used at state level in the United States as a kind of IOU. If a state in America is in difficulty, it can say on the basis of tax that is going to be paid in the future that money will be ring-fenced to pay that debt. I believe that was the suggestion put forward by the Greek authorities in recent days. I am not talking about the current situation; I am talking about pre-2008. Were there alternatives? Had the Commission's range of thought processes and considerations considered contingencies such as this, rather than the blunt instrument which may be the prescription of austerity and budgetary cutbacks?

Mr. Marco Buti

With due respect, in the pre-2007 and 2008 period, the issue was not austerity, rather, it was insufficient fiscal discipline which eroded the space for budgets to respond and have sufficient room for manoeuvre when the crisis hit the country. It was not an issue of this sort. The kind of surveillance we had at the time focused essentially on headline deficits, which was amply satisfied in terms of the constraints because of the very strong growth and tax elasticities. There was an erosion of fiscal prudence underlying the behaviour of the country.

So there was no consideration given to this kind of thing.

Mr. Marco Buti

No, I think it was irrelevant at the time.

I am only at 13 minutes and I have a stopwatch on.

I have a watch here. You are on 15 minutes.

You used about three of those.

I did, because I am operating the rules of the inquiry.

You could be reasonable.

I am giving you an extra bit of time, but you are over time at the moment.

When asked by me if the crisis could have collapsed the euro, your predecessor, Klaus Regling said, "Yes". Professor Bill Black, in testimony here, said: "Ireland tried to bail out the German banks." Professor Ed Kane said, in testimony here: "Ireland seemed to help creditors in foreign lands like Germany." Mr. Buti said in his statement that the post-2007 financial and economic crisis showed us the hard way that our conceptual framework of the macroeconomy was incomplete. Did Ireland get a bad deal from Europe?

Sorry, you can ask Mr. Buti about the deal and his value-----

I am sure the people would be interested. He might like to answer it. Can we see if he would like to answer?

Yes, he would. If he can be asked a question that is not a leading question I am sure-----

That was not a leading question; I am quoting testimony. With respect, I am quoting testimony from three other witnesses, one of whom is this man's predecessor.

You then tried-----

I am sure the people are interested in that answer. Would Mr. Buti like to answer that question?

Mr. Buti, could you relay through the Chair, please? You can quote as many people as you like, Senator, but the-----

It is you who is trying to lead the witness. You are telling him not to answer a question. He may well like to answer that question and I think it would be in the public interest if he did, frankly.

Senator, I am going to-----

I understood we could quote from testimony from previous people. That is what I have done. The level of prescription in terms of actions and questioning in this inquiry so far is not acceptable and I have to say that if you persist in this, we are going to have discussions outside the room about the process in the future. I have asked a question and I want to see if Mr. Buti wants to answer it without you telling him not to answer it.

I will give you plenty of time, Senator. We do have discussions with regard to the preparation for lead questioners every time. The matters you have talked about were not raised at the discussions.

That is neither here nor there. I do not need my questions approved by the Chair.

No, but what you do need is to operate with the legal framework-----

I am. As far as I am concerned I am operating precisely within the legal framework.

The legal opinion comes from the Chair and is advised, and is also worked out at lead questioner sessions. Mr. Buti, in regard to the quotations Senator MacSharry used, which have been presented before the inquiry, the question with regard to the bailout is something you may have an opinion upon with regard to the deal we got and we ask you to share that with the inquiry.

I did not specifically say the bailout. If you want, I will rephrase the question or repeat the question as asked. Did Ireland get a bad deal from Europe? I quoted three testimonies. One was from Mr. Buti's predecessor, another was from Professor Bill Black and a third was from Professor Ed Kane. I do not need to repeat them I am sure. I am interested to know if Mr. Buti feels Ireland got a bad deal from Europe. Of course he does not have to answer the question, as the Chairman rightly said, but the Irish people might have an interest in someone of his seniority within the European Commission and his view on it.

Mr. Marco Buti

I understood that this is about the pre-crisis period. I do not want to sound reticent. I have my opinion on this having lived through that period. I understand there is a nexus phase of the inquiry where the whole response to the crisis will be addressed.

Ireland had extraordinary growth before the crisis. There was a healthy period and a less healthy period. We focused at the time, with the economic paradigm we had in mind and with the tools we had, on something which turned out to be incomplete at best. Ireland had an extremely rough time when the crisis erupted and Europe had to step in to help and rescue the Irish economy.

I agree that there was an existential risk posed by the sovereign debt crisis from countries like Ireland, but also Greece, Portugal and, to a certain extent, Spain. We were seeing at the time the risk of collapse in the euro. The committee members may all remember the Financial Times website was counting the minutes of the life evolution of the euro crisis as if we were just about to collapse at any moment. Ireland was part of this. Overall, assistance was deployed. We were fixing the plane while flying because we did not have the tools and the firewalls to address the crisis at the time. Crisis prevention has been strengthened since then. The tools to deal with the crisis have been put in place. That is where we stand.

Ireland has exited the assistance programme. We have forecast a return to strong growth in 2014 and 2015. Ireland is back on its feet at this moment in time.

I thank Mr. Buti. I would like to start with what he says on page 8, where he says: "We assumed they would do their job in a conscientious manner." He was, of course, speaking about national supervisors and regulators in regard to their supervision of the banking sector. Did the regulators and supervisors in Ireland do the job in a conscientious manner?

Mr. Marco Buti

I have seen the testimonies of a number of guests before me.

The current Governor of the Central Bank, Professor Philip Lane and others have indicated that the focus of supervision and the responsibilities carried out at the national level were incomplete at best. The focus was essentially on a bank-by-bank state of health. The State did not consider the stability of the financial sector as a whole. The supervisors were not paying sufficient attention to these matters and the fiscal policy at the time was also an issue. I am not talking so much about the fiscal stance in macro-economic terms but rather in terms of the composition of fiscal measures, including the type of tax measures which were taken, which helped to fuel the property boom at the time. In retrospect, there were failures on the supervisory front and in fiscal policy. Previous testimonies have been clear, and I agree, that especially when one enters an economic and monetary union in which monetary policy, interest rate and exchange rate tools are no longer available for national purposes, one has to be overly cautious and extremely attentive to fiscal policy and supervisory practices. At the time, in Ireland, but not only Ireland, there was not sufficient attention on these tools.

Was it a good approach on the part of the Commission to assume that anyone would do their job in that manner?

Mr. Marco Buti

If asked now, I would say "No". If asked at the time, our view - I tried to state this in my initial address - was that we had this so-called great moderation in mind, which was incomplete if not faulty. We followed that type of, let us say, parody and we had the tools which were commensurate to that type of parody. This was the assumption at the time. Now I would say it was a mistake. We did not have the tools. Unfortunately, we were together with many others. The line-up of guests which has preceded me has indicated that they were in a sense clouded by the same type of views.

Mr. Buti states on page 8 of his presentation that the Government - meaning the Irish Government - had to step in with its deep pockets to stave off the collapse of the financial sector and the economy as a whole. Will Mr. Buti explain what he means when he states the Government "had to" step in?

Mr. Marco Buti

When the crisis erupted, clearly a collapse of the banking system, which would bring down the whole financial system and the Irish economy, was an issue. Intervention by the Government was needed at the time in order to prevent such a collapse. We know this would have been catastrophic for the banks and the whole Irish economy, with an important contagion effect on the rest of the euro area. This does not mean that the intervention of the Government was perfect. It has been remarked that the blanket guarantee which was issued in 2008 was not a good idea. We were not notified of it. We knew it ex post. In retrospect, this was an excessive coverage of the banks.

The expression "had to" does not mean the Government was forced to do this.

Mr. Marco Buti

To my knowledge, not by the European Commission.

In January 2001, the EU Commissioner, Pedro Solbes, announced a recommendation under Article 99.4 of the treaty would be made against Ireland. I understand this was the first time a recommendation of that kind had been made. How important or significant was it or was it run of the mill? Was it a case of, "We can do this. We will start here"? Was it a very big, important moment?

Mr. Marco Buti

I joined the Commission in 1987. I was not directly in charge of these matters at the time. However, we had an important debate within the directorate-general at that time. Ireland was growing strongly. There was the Celtic tiger. There was a draft budget which was procyclical, meaning it was adding oil to the fire. At the same time, there were several other countries in much poorer condition.

In my opening address, I indicated the growth in Ireland and the growth in the rest of the euro area, where there was much higher debt and higher deficits. The issue was whether we should come out pinpointing Ireland, which was the poster child of Europe, with a recommendation. There was a genuine discussion on whether we would be getting it right by doing so. In retrospect, what was done was right. While group think, also called the great moderation paradigm, affected most observers at the time, the recommendation strayed outside this common view.

The Commission was deeply criticised at the time. In Ireland, it was very badly received. The Senator may remember the huge controversy. Europe was pinpointing Ireland when it was doing so well. Why does it not look elsewhere? Not only some but many academics criticised the Commission saying, "You are just looking at decimals. You are bureaucrats." In retrospect, it was the right approach. In a sense, this recommendation was the embryo of what we have done later on in terms of focusing on having the right fiscal stance for Ireland and other countries. In a boom period, fiscal policy has to be very cautious and restrained in order not to be behave in a procyclical way. It was, therefore, an important moment.

Mr. Buti makes clear on page 5 of his statement that it was not implemented by Ireland. Who in Ireland did not implement it?

Mr. Marco Buti

The Commission recommends or proposes and the Council adopts. The Commission recommended it, the Council adopted it and the recommendation was addressed to the Government of Ireland. The Government of Ireland did not implement the recommendation.

As Ireland did not implement it, was this something of which the European Commission took cognisance or remembered? How would it have fed into our relationship with the Commission over the years which followed, given that the Government had not implemented what it was asked to implement in 2001, or was it just a case of it not mattering?

Mr. Marco Buti

At the time we did not have the possibility, institutionally and legally, to follow up when a recommendation was not implemented.

I understand that, but I am asking whether this fed into or changed the relationship between Ireland and the Commission or did it make any difference?

Mr. Marco Buti

No, that I would not say. We continued to follow and monitor the Irish economy and the Irish policy making as we have done with other countries. Certainly the fact that this recommendation was not taken seriously was, in retrospect, a mistake. It was a mistake because there was no recognition that fiscal policy could play a more stabilising role. It was not so much the recommendation in each implementation at that particular moment. It was, in a sense, the example of a type of reasoning which would say "We are doing so well, we are in surplus and don't bother us."

I wish to clarify. At that time and in those conversations, was all that done in writing only? Were there face-to-face meetings with the Minister for Finance, the Taoiseach or the Tánaiste? Was it just a mindset of here is the piece of paper and get on with the job?

Mr. Marco Buti

No. The way it works is the same now. The Commission issues a recommendation. It is discussed in committees with government officials where there is a discussion on its merit as well as its wording. This leads to the adoption by the Council. There was a discussion by the ECOFIN Council which was attended by all the Ministers, such as Commissioner Solbes at the time as well as the Irish Minister for Finance and eventually the Council adopted the recommendation. There is a mix of formal proceedings, written recommendation and discussion in the appropriate institutional fora.

Mr. Buti said on page 6 that as the years passed, and we are talking about 2002 to 2006, inclusive, "the Commission did not shy away from taking a critical view" of Ireland. Mr. Rob Wright gave evidence here following his report on the Department of Finance. He said Mr. Buti's criticisms "were leavened by favourable comment and even praise for Irish policy." How could Mr. Buti be critical and praising at the same time? Was that not a mixed message? How could anybody know what he was saying? Does Mr. Buti believe he did not shy away from taking a critical view?

Mr. Marco Buti

As always, when we address economic policy-making of a country, one has critical views as well as more positive views. At the time Ireland grew very strongly. There was overall, according to the great moderation paradigm, relatively reasonably low inflation, there was very strong growth and the budget was either balanced or in surplus. We think considering the constraints and the framework that we had at the time, Ireland performed very well. We had to go beyond that in order to highlight the risks. There was always, as it is now, a mixture of acknowledgement or surprise, as indicated, as well as critical remarks. I would not say it was a blurred message. It was a more nuanced one where the elements of criticism and risks, in particular, related to the impact of the housing and property boom and the kind of implication this had for fiscal policy in particular. We saw the increase in revenue as being potentially transient. Indeed, when the crisis hit this revenue disappeared and then the emperor was naked.

On page 8, Mr. Buti says that the Commission's stability programme updates did not review developments in the banking sector between 2001 and 2007. I appreciate that situation may have changed now. However, the public would scratch their heads and wonder how could any economic commentary or assessment of a country, in that format, possibly exclude its banks. How could that have been?

Mr. Marco Buti

I agree with the Senator. If we look at it now it seems incomplete which is a kind word for it. Now we know much better what the situation is, how the economy works and the role of the banking and financial sector in this. Now we see that there are risks, potentially, concealed in the working of the financial sector in the banking system which may amplify booms leading to bubbles or creating shocks or misallocating resources and capital by conveying them to the property market.

Mr. Buti's organisation did not know that then.

Mr. Marco Buti

At the time we did not have that kind of focus. The focus was on macro-economic variables, inflation and the budget which was the main point. It is not that the banks and financial system was disregarded but it was not part of this macro-economic surveillance because the focus on the banking side was more, as I said, on micro prudential. It was bank by bank. We did not see, at the time, the risks for the system as a whole and the spillovers on the macroeconomic stability of the country. Now we know better.

I welcome Mr. Buti. I shall commence by asking a couple of general questions.

When one is a member of a committee like this one finds oneself reading all sorts of documents. I found myself reading the mission statement of a Directorate-General of the European Commission. It reads:

The mission of the Directorate-General for Economic and Financial Affairs is to contribute to raising the economic welfare of the citizens in the European Union and beyond, notably by developing and promoting policies that ensure sustainable economic growth, a high level of employment, stable public finances and financial stability.

In the period before the banking collapse, was any of that achieved or not?

Mr. Marco Buti

Almost all of the first order indicators were met - a high level of employment, strong growth and relative macroeconomic and monetary stability. The financial system did not show up, as I indicated before, as any particular disequilibria at the time. There was strong potential growth also. it is not because I do not want to say this was due to the European Commission or my DG but, prima facie, almost all those elements, to different degrees, were met.

If one scratches the surface and goes beyond that, then we see that the kind of growth model that we had at the time, not in Europe in general but in a number of countries, we can see Ireland's was, first and foremost, based on elements of non-sustainability which came to the fore when the crisis erupted.

I wish to ask a question on that matter specifically. Does Mr. Buti think that the European Commission's surveillance responsibility has been a success? With specific reference to Ireland in the lead-up period to the collapse which we have been discussing, does he believe the Commission was successful or not? I cannot ask a leading question.

Mr. Marco Buti

From what I have indicated before throughout my testimony, it was successful considering the kind of predicament we had at the time or the kind of remit and institutional responsibilities that we had at the time. We signalled a number of underlying disequilibria which were brewing in the system. We underlined a number of risks. We could not pursue it fully because we had limitations in terms of the tools for monitoring that we had at the time.

Unfortunately, and most important of all, we had no enforcement power for going beyond first-order developments.

This is what we did at the time. In retrospect, one can certainly see that had we had a more correct or more complete view of the behaviour of the economy, and if we had had what was put in place later on - that is, a more complete set of tools, including enforcement tools - then we would definitely have done a better job.

Much of your statement referred to the Stability and Growth Pact. In 2003 France and Germany were the first two countries to break the 3% deficit limit that was part of the pact. As you said, Ireland never breached that 3% limit, at least during the Celtic Tiger years. Is it fair to say, as some commentators have, that the terms of the pact were not fit for purpose - or, to rephrase that, do you think they were fit for purpose or not, in light of the fact that the first breach was by France and Germany and no corrective action was subsequently taken?

Mr. Marco Buti

As you rightly recall, the 2003 crisis was due to a lack of compliance with the Stability and Growth Pact by the two largest members of the euro area. You will recall also the Commission, at the time, took the courageous decision of taking the two countries and the Council to court over that. Subsequently, the pact was reformed to make it more fit for purpose. In the case of Ireland, the way the pact was conceived and implemented at the time did not capture the essence of a country with such exponential growth rates. With the budget artificially improved by high tax elasticities related to the property boom, the parameter of the pact that focused on the 3% deficit limit and the 60% debt limit did not allow for the essence of the Irish problem. We know better now, and the set of tools that we have allow us to focus on problems that are specific to Ireland.

Just briefly, I have a series of questions, and I will cut it down to one.

No. There will not be a series of questions; there will be one short supplementary.

I was just saying that, Chairman.

The question is about auditors, and I have asked it of many of the witnesses. The European Commission proposed far-reaching reforms to the audit sector before the banking crisis, and these reforms were subsequently changed. Do you believe it should be mandatory for bank auditors to rotate and, if yes, why? Do you believe the mandatory rotation of auditors, as proposed by the Commission in the 2003-2008 period, could have led to higher levels of vigilance in the Irish banking sector?

Mr. Marco Buti

I have to disappoint you, because this is not within my current set of responsibilities. I cannot answer this question. I apologise.

In the course of your surveillance of Ireland between 2001 and 2007, did you pay attention to academic articles that were published, work by the ESRI or media articles?

Mr. Marco Buti

In the context of our surveillance, we interact with all actors. We talked to the ESRI, we talked to other academics in Ireland and beyond, and we talked to social partners of the Government. There is, and was, ample interaction with all actors.

So the Commission would pay attention to reports by the ESRI - its medium-term reviews and quarterly economic commentaries?

Mr. Marco Buti

As with the other resources, yes.

Would the Commission respond to those? For example, the 2005 medium-term review from the ESRI mentioned a lot of problems in the economy that we had talked about in 2001, would the Commission take a view on a report such as that coming from a country?

Mr. Marco Buti

We do not formally respond to articles or projections of this sort, but they enter into our broad assessment inventory. Before we complete each forecast we come on forecast missions and we visit the various actors. I have been in close touch with Professor John FitzGerald, who is a good friend.

When you made those visits to Ireland - to speak with John FitzGerald of the ESRI, for example - did such people convey any warnings or serious concerns they had about the economy at the time, in the period from 2005 to 2007?

Mr. Marco Buti

I think John FitzGerald came and gave his testimony here. I largely agree with what he says. I cannot tell you now exactly whether there was such a warning in that particular year. I think there was praise for Ireland's spectacular economic performance on the one hand, together with looming concerns about a number of developments which were taking place, but which did not manifest themselves in such a glaring way as they did afterwards.

Were you asked by the ESRI to intervene with the Government in relation to fiscal policy?

Mr. Marco Buti

I cannot tell. Not because I do not want to; I do not know.

You do not remember from those meetings?

Mr. Marco Buti

No; I cannot recall. These types of interaction are the normal ones we had with economists and desk officers at the time.

When John FitzGerald was before this committee, his recollection was that he did ask the Commission to intervene with the Government, but the Commission took the view that it could not.

Mr. Marco Buti

Yes. I have seen that, and I have to say that I did not recall it myself. I do not have evidence that this happened in any formal manner. If there was some oral communication, I cannot tell you. There was no formal request or communication of this sort. If something like this happened, it must have been in context of normal interactions we have with Irish commentators.

When you were in Ireland having discussions with the ESRI and talking about its reports, did your discussions inspire confidence in the opinions it was giving in its quarterly economic commentaries?

Mr. Marco Buti

I cannot substantiate anything of this. The only thing I can tell you is what I have already said: we interact with many actors. In Ireland we collected views and we shared our views. This is the positive interaction we have with Irish observers, commentators and economists, as we do with any other country.

And would you interact with the IMF and its staff reports on the country?

Mr. Marco Buti

We always do. The IMF has Article IV report which focus on national economies. They stop by in Brussels before coming, in this case, to Dublin, or we speak afterwards, so we are in close contact. The IMF, as well as other international organisations such as the OECD, shared the same paradigm of great moderation that all of us followed. If you look at the recommendation in their assessment, it is largely convergent with ours.

I am looking at the critical opinion from the Council in 2001. It is clear there is a risk to monetary union and that prudent fiscal policy is the means to counter these risks. It is also clear that Ireland was not pursuing prudent fiscal policy in 2001. How is the Council opinion of 2001 not still relevant in 2005, 2006 and 2007, given what the ESRI and the IMF were both saying at the time?

Mr. Marco Buti

It was relevant, in a sense. We highlighted in our assessment the risks related to fiscal prudence. We saw, in particular, that the model of relying increasingly on revenue arising from property taxes and housing taxes, which replaced a more stable form of revenue and financed Government spending, was a model which carried risks and we signalled that. That is what we did at the time. We rang the bell but, again, formerly, with a country in surplus and with a sizeable surplus in certain years, it was very difficult to say it was not behaving according to the Stability and Growth Pact, because it did.

It was the Commission's responsibility to say that to the country, despite how it was growing.

Mr. Marco Buti

We said that. We signalled that repeatedly. Did we signal it in a sufficiently strong way considering what we know now? The answer is "No". At the time, we thought it was the type of warning that was needed and, unfortunately, it was only half followed.

On page 4 of Mr. Buti's introduction he refers to an EU Commission policy framework from the pre-crisis period, which is sometimes referred to as the great moderation paradigm. For somebody in the 1960s it would sound like something from Chairman Mao's Little Red Book. In any case, Mr. Buti says there are two aspects to it - low and steady inflation, and prudent and sustainable fiscal policy by government. As long as those were observed, apparently, there would be no major problems. Has Mr. Buti heard of Professor Morgan Kelly, a well known academic in University College Dublin?

Mr. Marco Buti

No.

That is fine. As early as 2006, Professor Kelly referenced housing property bubbles in Finland in the 1970s and in the Netherlands in the 1980s which crashed and caused havoc within those economies, including a banking crisis in Finland. He further referenced studies in a few dozen OECD countries of housing bubbles which had a similar effect over the previous 20 years. How could the EU Commission miss the significance of such a bubble with that type of concrete experience?

Mr. Marco Buti

As I indicated, this was the paradigm at the time. It was shared by the EU institutions, the IMF, the OECD and so forth. The international organisations thought the focus was essentially on fiscal policy and on stable inflation. It does not mean that there were not others who looked at different matters. We looked at the house prices. We were not ignorant of this. I do not know these particular studies, but the idea was that we had a model of development. We had the Celtic tiger which was very much export-led in the 1990s. We had a convergence of prices, both the general consumer price index as well as housing prices, towards a higher level commensurate to the increase in income. The issue at the time was whether the property and house prices were an equilibrium phenomenon or a bubble.

In retrospect, we know that at a certain point in the mid-2000s the situation got out of hand and house prices clearly grew exponentially. However, at the time there were a number of analyses and commentators that considered the increase in house prices as part of this adjustment of the Irish economy and an equilibrium phenomenon. The hope at the time was that one could deflate the house price boom gently and have a soft landing. Prudent fiscal policy, sound monetary policy and low inflation were considered to be sufficient to deflate the bubble, together with appropriate supervisory practices. This was the model at the time.

I understand. At the same time, however, the credit extended by Irish banks was going through the roof and was being financed by massive loans from European banks. A witness from the United States, Professor Black, said that when banks are growing by approximately 20% year-on-year, all kinds of red lights should start flashing that the loans are not sustainable. How could the EU Commission miss that indicator as well in the bubble or pre-crisis period?

Mr. Marco Buti

I risk repeating myself. We did not have the type of tools that we have now.

I accept that it did not have the tools. However, how could it not have the knowledge and recognition that this was a disaster in the making, given all the resources it has and the lessons of history?

Mr. Marco Buti

The growth model of the Irish economy transformed itself from an export-led economy to more domestic-led growth. This went hand-in-hand with a development, considering the domestic sources, of the housing market which was considered to be a healthy one. The focus then, as I indicated, was on other matters. We signalled that there was an issue related to this, but we had neither the tools nor, I am the first to admit, the type of focus on developments in the housing market, the financial markets and the banking sector which could have prevented that. With the benefit of hindsight we should have done that, but the focus at the time was in line with the great moderation paradigm and this was what we did, as unfortunately did many others who have been witnesses before me.

Unfortunately, we are caught for time. Mr. Buti said it was considered that the Irish housing market was a healthy market. However, in a briefing document from our researchers we read that in a number of years during the housing boom the increase in the value of the average home was larger than the amount of money a worker on the average industrial wage would take home over the full year.

The research further found that over a ten-year period, from 1996 to 2006, the price of an average home for a working person increased by the equivalent of the average industrial wage each year for ten years. It states that the increase in house prices created significant opportunities for investors to make large profits in housing development. Does that look like a health housing market situation when young working people are the subject of such profiteering? Was that not seen by the EU Commission during that period as well because it was flagged here in Ireland?

Mr. Marco Buti

In my initial address, I indicated that the increase in house prices got completely out of hand. What I was simply saying is that the Celtic tiger period was followed by a period of growth which was more domestically oriented. In the initial phase, this switch of the model, from export growth to domestic-based growth, went hand in hand with an increase in the importance of the housing market. I fully agree with Deputy Higgins. Then the system and the market got out of hand and, clearly, there was - what, in retrospect, is clearly - a bubble, and a very unhealthy one. I do not at all say that we considered the developments in the housing market in Ireland a healthy one. I said at the beginning it was normal that there was this switch from export-led growth to domestic-led growth and we can see now in retrospect - we signalled at the time, though not in as forceful a way as one could have done - that there were a number of elements in the supervisory practices and in the conduct of tax policy and fiscal policy in general and taxation in particular, which added fuel to the fire. This is the assessment that we have now. At the time, if one looks at all the technical assessments of the stability programme of Ireland issued post 2001, regularly one finds these type of warnings, but it is true that we did not fully draw the consequences of this and ring the bell as loud as one could have done had we had the knowledge and tools that we have now.

On page 5 of his testimony, about the 2001 recommendation where the Commission had difficulties with the spending in the economy, Mr. Buti states: "As some of you may remember, the recommendation was not very well received in Ireland; it was not implemented." I have two questions. Who, specifically, is Mr. Buti talking about in stating that it was not well received in Ireland and what precisely were the recommendations?

Mr. Marco Buti

I am not here to name names. This is the rule in the committee.

It is clear that there was a storm of criticism in Ireland in general about the Commission finger-pointing Ireland for misbehaviour. There was clearly very strong criticism of the Commission focusing on a particularly critical issue while Ireland was doing so well. As I indicated before, this criticism was not only from Ireland, but also from academics outside Ireland.

Did Mr. Buti receive criticism from Government and Departments in Ireland?

Mr. Marco Buti

The criticism was quite general at the time and the recommendation was not implemented.

Specifically, did the Commission receive direct communication from Government and the Department of Finance criticising this recommendation?

Mr. Marco Buti

When we issue recommendations, we do not come out of the blue and just publish in the Official Journal a piece of paper. When the Commission issues a recommendation, we have discussions in the committee where the Irish officials are present and they make legitimately their point, as do all the other member states. Then there is discussion in the Council where Government is present at the level of Ministers, and from the Commissioner viewpoint, there was Mr. Solbes, who was then the Commissioner in charge. This is the process through which a recommendation is issued. There is a recommendation and the Council adopts it, and in all this process there are discussions which are informal or formal in each of the fora.

From the Irish Government at the time, there was criticism of the recommendation. What were the recommendations? Would Mr. Buti state specifically what were the recommendations?

Mr. Marco Buti

I can read the recommendation.

In the limited time, I do not need it in detail.

Mr. Marco Buti

On the recommendation, the Council of the member states, six months before, had issued what was called broad economic policy guidelines, which was the only tool that we had outside the Stability and Growth Pact at the time. What was said at the time was a call, in the broad economic policy guidelines, on Ireland to have a fiscal policy which would exert a restraint in order not to be, as they say of economies, pro-cyclical or add to the boom. This was the broad economic policy guideline. Then there was the draft budget 2001 presented by the Irish Government. Subsequent to that, the Commission recommended removing the inconsistency with the broad economic policy guidelines by the budget plan in 2001 by taking countervailing budgetary measures during the current fiscal year. The issue was to temper with restraining measures the expansionary effect of the budget, which was clearly pro-cyclical.

I thank Mr. Buti. I will follow on from that. The Commission completely changed the direction in the 2002 recommendation. I have a question on the backdrop there. Mr. Buti mentioned in his presentation that the Commission found mortgage interest relief on property as a negative and yet in the 2002 budget the then Government re-introduced mortgage interest relief on rental or investment properties for the first time since 1998. The question I am asking is did the criticism from the Irish Government on the 2001 recommendation influence the Commission's decision in terms of the 2002 recommendation?

Mr. Buti also makes reference to this. In his presentation, he states, "In retrospect, the assessment of whether the 2001 Council recommendation to Ireland was a good idea or not is less clear cut; even controversial." It would appear as if the measures that were brought in in 2002 were even more pro-cyclical in terms of mortgage interest relief and yet the Commission did not make the same recommendation.

As an adjunct to that question, Mr. Buti also states in his report-----

I must ask the Deputy to finish.

-----that the structural deficit was overstated in retrospect. In that time period, the Commission was basically saying that the structural fiscal position for Ireland was positive. Looking at it now, what is the Commission's current estimate of the structural balances prior to 2008?

The Deputy has it.

That is the question. With due respect to the Chairman, I am trying to work within the confines. I ask the Chairman to give me some latitude.

I have given Deputy O'Donnell loads of latitude because he is over time already.

I appreciate that.

I ask Mr. Buti to respond.

With due respect, I am operating within the time constraints.

Mr. Marco Buti

Deputy O'Donnell's question is a complex one. It encompasses different aspects.

It is an important one.

Mr. Marco Buti

Let me try to address them. First, what changed between 2001 and 2002? The main element that changed was that the ICT bubble struck the global economy.

So there was a very rapid downturn in the global and European economies. In the case of Ireland, much of the healthy growth which occurred during the Celtic tiger period was based on ICT and high-innovation products and this was the reason for its wealth. There was a collapse in growth between 2001 and 2002. The kind of criticism that was directed towards the budget prior to the unexpected collapse in the ICT economy seemed less appropriate ex post facto because the economy had, in a sense, collapsed on its own. That is why in 2002 we did not repeat the criticism we offered in 2001.

The second point is that unlike the position now, the degree of generality relating to the recommendations was quite high during the period in question. We basically said that countervailing measures should be taken. However, we did not stipulate which measures should be taken. The issue of subsidiarity is important and our recommendations remained at quite a high level of generality. The issue on which we place a great deal of emphasis now, namely, the quality and composition of public finances, on both the spending and revenue sides, were not the focus of attention at that time to which I refer. We did not, therefore, go into the kind of specifics to which the Deputy referred.

On the Deputy's final point, estimating the structural surplus is particularly difficult. We know it is an unobservable variable. In retrospect, Ireland's budgetary position at the time was less solid than we believed. This was the case for two reasons. First, at the beginning of the last decade we were, like many others, anticipating the growth of the Irish economy to remain high during the following few years. The potential rate of growth was, therefore, considered to be very high. Second, at the time there was what economists refer to as very high tax elasticity. The budget was improving as a result of high tax revenue but, essentially, this was linked to the property and housing market. In retrospect, with more normal elasticity and a sustainable growth rate that was not artificially fuelled by activity in the property market, things would have been different. However, budgetary conditions at the time were less healthy than we thought.

I thank Mr. Buti. I remind members that they need to ensure that they accommodate Mr. Buti and other witnesses in the context of allowing them to answer within the time allocated. If this does not happen, we will continue to run over time. People back-loading a number of queries into their final question will not facilitate witnesses in answering.

On Mr. Buti's final point regarding Ireland's structural balance, is the Commission of the view that its forecasts up to 2007 were correct or incorrect?

Mr. Marco Buti

I have just answered that in reply to Deputy O'Donnell.

I am just asking whether the Commission's assessments were correct or incorrect in the lead-up to 2007.

Mr. Marco Buti

In the context of what we could estimate at the time, we used the best the analytical tools and technology available. I recall that the analytical tools to estimate potential structural deficit were not-----

With respect, I intend to ask a follow-on question in respect of this matter. I just want Mr. Buti to indicate whether the assessments were right or wrong in the lead-up to 2007.

Mr. Marco Buti

At the time we used the best tools available and we thought they were right. In retrospect, the structural balance was less healthy than we estimated. If the Deputy wants a direct answer, then they were wrong.

They were wrong. That is fine. In reply to Deputy O'Donnell's question on why they were wrong, Mr. Buti referred to tax elasticity and the high levels of tax that were being collected from property-related sectors in particular. Surely the entire notion of a structural balance is not to rely on such elasticity or on increases in tax revenue resulting from a housing boom. How could the Commission factor in increases in tax revenues from the housing market - which it had previously stated was out of hand - in calculating the structural balance, when the whole purpose of the latter is not to include those increases?

Mr. Marco Buti

The Deputy makes a good point. We used the methodology that was adopted by the Council and that was endorsed by all the member states. We have a dedicated group - the output gaps working group - which deals with all of these matters. We realised there was a danger in treating as structural, revenues which had the potential to be temporary. In 2006 we proposed that the output gaps working group focus on this and address the soundness of the methodology used to estimate the structural balance. We brought in the OECD to reassess the position regarding tax elasticity and eventually, in 2007 and 2008, the methodologies were changed. However, that was after the collapse. We were not ignorant of that matter and we had already started the work relating to it. We do not want methodologies to be imposed by the Commission on the member states on a take-it-or-leave-it basis, we want to use analytical tools which are commonly shared among and supported by all member states. This implies that there was a need to come to an agreement and adopt a common methodology. This was done within the working group to which I refer. The proposal of 2006 came into effect only later on.

When the Commission outlined its views on Ireland's economy - Mr. Buti referred to 2006 in this regard - in 2005 it described the potential output gap as being between 5% and 6%. Despite what has been provided to the members of the inquiry by the investigation team, all of the patterns show that this could not possibly be the case or that there was at least a risk involved. For example, demographics was an issue in the context of labour force participation and there was a tailing off during the period in question. Is it the case that the Commission was given these estimates and that it knew them to be based on a flawed set of calculations? In light of Mr. Buti's assertion that in 2006 the OECD was asked to examine how the calculations were carried out, is the opposite the case?

Mr. Marco Buti

We used the best tools available at the time. When one assesses the potential growth of the economy, which is necessary to compute the so-called output gap, one must consider the capital endowment of the economy, the position regarding labour force development, demographic issues and productivity levels. To be fair, it is very difficult to assess what is the potential growth rate for a country such as Ireland. It is much easier to assess large, more stable economies than it is to examine the position of small, very open economies which are subject to large external shocks. In objective terms, it was very difficult to do the job in question.

This is not to excuse the fact that, in retrospect, we can see Ireland's growth model was unsustainable.

To try to pin down what happened before the property bubble, Mr. Buti mentioned the market got out of hand and also stated that, in retrospect, it was a bubble. Given everything other members have put forward in their questioning on the rise in house prices, the concentration of lending and everything that happened in the economy in the lead up to 2007, was the Commission at any time of the view there was a bubble in the Irish economy? If so, did it outline this to the authorities? If so, how did it do so?

Mr. Marco Buti

One can look through the many documents produced at the time assessing the state of the Irish economy and Irish policy. It is very difficult to identify whether a bubble exists or whether there is a strong increase in prices which could be part of a phenomenon with more equilibrium. One never calls a bubble ex ante. If one looks at assessment by the economic profession in general, objectively the identification of a bubble is very difficult. We had suspicions that certain elements were not part of a natural development of the economy, and in our documents we signalled that a number of measures were adding to these developments.

With respect, in answer to the questions of other members, Mr. Buti said the market got out of hand, but he went on to say that, in retrospect, it was a bubble. He has given evidence to the inquiry that, in retrospect, the Commission is of the view there was a bubble. My question is very simple and straightforward. At any time during the period up until the bubble burst was the Commission of the view which it holds now, that there was a bubble?

Mr. Marco Buti

We saw a dangerous ongoing phenomenon and we signalled this in our documents. We did not, at the time, draw conclusions on all of its consequences.

I welcome Mr. Buti. This is an inquiry into the banking crisis which cost the State approximately €64 billion. When the European Commission examined Ireland's stability programme update reports from 2001 to 2007, it made no reference whatsoever to our banking sector and the risks being built up within it. Will Mr. Buti explain why this is the case?

Mr. Marco Buti

I have already answered this in my initial statement, and in answer to questions from Deputy McGrath's colleagues. We did not specifically pinpoint the problems in the Irish banking sector. This was part of how the economic profession in general and international organisations and institutions looked at the developments in the economy. At the time we thought that focusing on prudent fiscal policy and price stability would be enough to ensure the economy grew healthily. There was no focus on the banking sector and I admit this.

Is it the case the Commission did not see the risks in the Irish banking system which were being built up in the pre-crisis years?

Mr. Marco Buti

We saw the risk related to the housing market and signalled this in a number of documents, which are all available on our website. We did not draw conclusions on the policy consequences, which we now know were necessary at the time.

The Commission did not see the risk in the banks building up large losses on their balance sheets because of their dependence on property-related lending. The Commission did not see this risk and its possible impact on the financial stability of the State.

Mr. Marco Buti

As I indicated, one must be careful about pinpointing where responsibility lies. I am not here to take responsibility, I am here as a witness before the committee. At the time, as far as the banks were concerned, the focus was on a bank-by-bank basis and responsibility for this lay with national supervisors. The Commission did not have this responsibility; supervising the banks was not then, nor is it now, part of its institutional remit.

Equally, is it the case there was nothing preventing the European Commission from raising concerns in its annual assessments of Ireland's stability programme update concerning the banking sector and the risks inherent in it? There was nothing preventing the Commission from doing so, was there?

Mr. Marco Buti

There was nothing to prevent the Commission from doing so. We put the emphasis on what we thought was part of our institutional remit at the time, which was the development of the housing market. As I indicated, there was no focus on the banking sector.

I understand. The tools available to the European Commission during the pre-crisis years were an early warning mechanism and formal policy advice. Was the criticism of Ireland in 2001 an early warning?

Mr. Marco Buti

It was a de facto early warning, yes. It was not called that formally; it was a recommendation to Ireland under broad economic policy guidelines.

There were no subsequent early warnings pertaining to Ireland before the crisis struck?

Mr. Marco Buti

No.

Was there any formal policy advice from the European Commission to Ireland?

Mr. Marco Buti

There was formal policy advice, because every year as part of our assessment of the stability programme, we issue a recommendation for a Council opinion. This is whereby the Council adopts our policy recommendation. Every year there have been opinions on Irish policy making.

Mr. Buti has made a number of points about the risks highlighted by the European Commission over a number of years. Some emphasis must also be placed on the positive comments it made. For example, its assessment of the 2005 to 2007 stability programme report was that the fiscal position could be considered as sound and the budgetary strategy provided a good example of fiscal policies conducted in compliance with the pact. A similar verdict was made with regard to the 2006 to 2009 period. Going back to 2005 to 2007, the Commission highlighted downside risks on the macro-economic side, but judged the overall risks to the budgetary projections contained seemed to be on the positive side, particularly in 2006. Does Mr. Buti accept the European Commission did not ring the alarm bells sufficiently strongly enough, clearly enough or persistently enough about any concerns it had about the direction of policy in Ireland?

Mr. Marco Buti

What Deputy McGrath has said is correct. We used the tools we had at the time to ring the bell. It was specifically the responsibility of the Directorate-General for Economic and Financial Affairs to check that what was happening in Ireland with regard policy-making was consistent with the rules of the Stability and Growth Pact. The answer is what Deputy McGrath has said, which is that it was. We had to judge whether the fiscal policy of each country was in line with the Stability and Growth Pact. Ireland was in line with it. What we now know is this was not enough to ensure the healthy development of the economy.

Mr. Buti raised the issue of the Government's response to the crisis and the intervention to prevent the collapse of the banks. He referred to what would have been catastrophic consequences for the banks and the Irish economy, and went on to criticise the broad nature of the guarantee. What, in his view, given the criticism he has made, would have been an appropriate intervention by the Government at the time, given the crisis it faced? What should it have done?

Mr. Marco Buti

I am not in the position to answer this question in a complete manner. What we saw at the time was a move which was not notified to the Commission. We knew it ex post and I think there was broad agreement that this was not the best policy that one could have made at the time. In terms of what to do otherwise, I do not want to comment at this stage.

I thank Mr. Buti.

Following on from Deputy Michael McGrath's question, Mr. Buti said the guarantee was too broad. What would he have taken out of the guarantee?

Mr. Marco Buti

While I do not want to comment in detail on this issue, the guarantee was a blanket one and this was understandable in terms of the pressure the Government was under at the time - pressure from the events - and clearly it was a situation which was very dangerous. At the same time this provided a coverage that was simply too broad.

What would Mr. Buti take out?

Mr. Marco Buti

I cannot say at this stage.

At the end of page 2 and page 3 of his presentation, for which I thank him, Mr. Buti said the Irish banking sector was severely oversized relative to the size of the local economy and the fiscal capacity of the Irish sovereign. By how much was it oversized and what is an optimum share of GDP to have in banking?

Mr. Marco Buti

It is difficult to tell what the optimal size is. We know the Irish economy at the time was relying very much on the financial sector. This was one of the comparative advantages but we had an oversized banking system which, if I am not mistaken, before the collapse was about 900% of GDP. I think it is being reduced now to about 600% of GDP. I cannot tell whether this is adequate now but before it clearly was excessive.

On page 3 of his presentation, Mr. Buti said that many states were exclusively concerned with micro-prudential supervision and insufficient attention was paid to macro-prudential supervision. When every single bank goes broke the micro was not well carried out. On the macro side, did the Commission know that rules such as loan-to-value and loan-to-income disappeared during the period coming up to the crash?

Mr. Marco Buti

The decision not to deploy typical supervisory tools such as the ones the Senator has indicated, lacked attention on the part of the supervisor at the time. I think here it has been well established by previous testimonies. This, as I said, was part of the responsibilities of national supervisory authorities. As the Commission we did not have a remit to cover this. Now at EU level with the establishment of the single supervisory mechanism, within the banking union there is the possibility of taking a broader view and we focus now, with the experience we have, much more on macro-prudential so the systemic risks for the banking system and financial system as a whole, not only on a bank-by-bank approach that we had at the time. This was the responsibility of national supervisors not of the Commission.

What was the procedure? Did Mr. Buti's people visit the Central Bank or take data from it, or visit banks, to discuss issues such as the emphasis on property and the emphasis on borrowing abroad? Were any of these issues ever discussed as part of the supervision?

Mr. Marco Buti

No. What we did at the time as we always do and as we do for all member states, is that we have a regular mission, in this case, to Dublin. We talk to the authorities, social partners, financial market analysts and so on, so all of these elements were discussed. I have to say - I repeat myself - this is what we heard at the time, that the focus of surveillance was within the Stability and Growth Pact, essentially Ireland's fiscal policy, and on the overall macro-economic developments. It did not focus on the banking sector in the financial system.

On page 8 of his presentation, Mr. Buti said the sudden drop in residential house prices undermined the viability of most Irish banks and exposed a striking lack of supervisory and regulatory rigour. That writing was on the wall long before that and it did not take the decline in house prices to know that what was going on was not sustainable.

I will take a final question from the Senator.

Mr. Buti said he did not shy away from a critical view of Irish fiscal policy making. Did he shy away from a critical view of Irish monetary policy-making?

Mr. Marco Buti

In regard to monetary policy-making, we looked at the behaviour of inflation. Inflation for most of the period was slightly above the European average but in a country still in a catch up phase, this is normal. In terms of the overall responsibilities for monetary policy, that rests with the ECB and not with the Commission.

I thank Mr. Buti.

I thank the Chairman and thank Mr. Buti for appearing before the committee. Mr. Buti said that for the first time Article 99.4 of the treaty was used. What was the sanction for the usage of Article 99.4? Was there a sanction in relation to the Government's policy?

Mr. Marco Buti

On the 2001---

Mr. Marco Buti

Unfortunately there was no sanction and there was no way to enforce this recommendation. Basically, what we had at the time was that the Commission recommended Article 99.4 to conduct a more prudent fiscal policy. The Council would recommend and the Council did recommend and it stopped there. It stopped there because there was no element of sanction of any sort. The idea was that through peer pressure, peer conviction and exposing a number of risks, the national policy makers would take that into account but it stopped there. It was soft co-ordination and the enforcement tools, once the recommendation was not followed, actually did not exist.

Was that a mistake?

Mr. Marco Buti

It was the incompleteness of the tools to monitor surveillance that we had at the time. Now we are much better equipped. The strengthening of the monitoring system and the co-ordination system have been put in place since the crisis, through the so-called tool box on the banking side and the banking macro balances procedure. We had an incomplete set of tools.

I thank Mr. Buti. Mr. Buti used the term "incomplete set of tools" on a number of occasions. In previous evidence we found out that the Department of Finance in Ireland, before the guarantee before the crisis, considered passing special resolution legislation. The reason that was not used was because it could create the concern that if the legislation was on the Statute Book, perhaps somebody would require it. What is Mr. Buti's view of special resolution legislation?

Should that be on all eurozone statute books, or should it have been on all statute books?

Mr. Marco Buti

I am sorry but I cannot comment on that as it is outside my field of responsibility. I apologise.

Mr. Buti made the point towards the end of his submission that the "financial sector was thought to simply channel funds in an efficient manner to where the real economy needed them". Is that not a very naïve statement about the financial sector?

Mr. Marco Buti

It is not that the statement is naïve but that it was the naïve view at the time. One may recall that, at the highest level of academia, the so-called efficient market hypothesis for financial markets essentially prevailed. The way we looked at financial markets, or the lack of completeness of financial markets in Europe, was such that it was believed the problem was that it would not allow the allocation risk in an efficient manner. We did not see what happened afterwards, namely, that the financial market would have an element of propagation of shocks that could lead to catastrophic events. That was not the focus of the attention.

When Mr. Buti's colleague from the Commission, Mr. Nava, was before us, I asked him for his view on the three big rating agencies' performance prior to the crisis. He said it was not his sector, but Mr. Buti's.

Mr. Marco Buti

Rating agencies are his sector, actually. I will give the committee my opinion, however. The rating agencies failed miserably before the crisis. This is a quite well-established conclusion. One may even say that the overreaction by rating agencies during the crisis, when they downgraded sovereigns, may have contributed to the debt of the sovereign debt crisis.

There are a number of cases against the rating agencies in the United States. Are there cases pending in respect of the big three in the eurozone?

Finally, I would like Mr. Buti's view on the big four audit firms prior to the crisis.

Mr. Marco Buti

I cannot answer those two questions. I gave the Senator my overall view on the performance of rating agencies before the crisis. As I said, it is not within my remit or responsibility, nor is the second element.

We will move towards concluding. I invite Senators MacSharry and O'Keeffe to ask their final questions.

I have no further questions.

I have just two further questions.

Given that Mr. Buti knew at the time there was no sanction for the recommendation and no follow-up, given that he described the model he was able to use as being flawed and given that there were plenty of difficulties, such as the incomplete toolbox, can he understand why people might say it was the best of free-market thinking, with light-touch regulation, and that this was why the Commission did not have the tools, why the model was not great and why there was no sanction? In a way, was it not the case that as 2001 rolled into 2002, 2003 and 2004, the Commission did not pursue the matter because it was, perhaps, afraid of alarming the markets and causing a fear factor?

Mr. Marco Buti

I think that was the view at the time. I have amply testified before the committee that this view was not complete and we did not capture the essence of the interplay between the housing market, banking system and the fiscal system.

Mr. Buti has done so.

Mr. Marco Buti

We highlighted a number of problems. We stayed within the remit we had at the time, which was, admittedly, very narrow. For us, the main point was that we had to issue an opinion on the stability programme of Ireland each year, and we issued this opinion. We highlighted some problems of the sort in question but not the systemic ones. We had a narrow view.

I am asking Mr. Buti whether that would be described as free-market thinking. In addition, was he surprised at the response by the Irish Government? Was he actually surprised because he said it was a serious decision in 2001? Was he surprised by the level of push-back from the Irish Government. It described the position as bizarre and said it had no intention of changing its plans?

Mr. Marco Buti

I was not surprised. The Commission took the decision which at the time looked controversial, so it was a courageous decision in 2001. I have said many times in today's testimony that, in retrospect, many things were not right. In retrospect, we did not have a set of tools that was complete. In retrospect, the view on the working of the economy was either non-complete or deficient. On this particular case, which is the 2001 recommendation, it was the right one in retrospect but I was not surprised by the push-back because it went against the wind at the time. Ireland was performing beautifully. The public finances were considered to be healthy, well within the 3% limit under the Maastricht treaty. Why should the Commission come out and criticise the poster child? It was a courageous decision. The push-back was natural at the time so it was not a surprise but in retrospect, as I indicated, what was done was the right thing to do.

I thank Mr. Buti for his participation in the inquiry today and for his very informative and valuable contribution, which has added to our understanding of the factors leading up to the crisis. I wish to put on record once again that Mr. Buti's attendance at this inquiry in his capacity as someone involved with the Commission was voluntary. I thank him for the work and preparation he has put in and also for the assistance given to him by his officials this morning.

Sitting suspended at noon and resumed at 12.20 p.m.

Dr. Donal Donovan

Our next item is a discussion with Dr. Donal Donovan. I welcome Dr. Donovan to the meeting for a discussion on issues relating to the international, EU and domestic policy context for the banking crisis in Ireland. He is very welcome to the inquiry. Dr. Donovan holds a BA from Trinity College, Dublin and a PhD from the University of British Columbia. He is a former International Monetary Fund staff member, having worked there for 28 years before retiring as deputy director in 2005. Dr. Donovan is currently adjunct professor at the University of Limerick and a visiting lecturer at Trinity College Dublin. He was a member of the investigation team that produced the report of the Governor of the Central Bank of Ireland to the Minister for Finance on the Irish banking crisis in May 2010. A former member of the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, Dr. Donovan has published a number of opinion pieces on the IMF-EU bailout in The Irish Times. He is co-author of the book The Fall of the Celtic Tiger: Ireland and the Euro Debt Crisis.

Before we begin, I advise the witness that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. The committee is asking witnesses to refrain from discussing named individuals in this phase of the inquiry.

Members are reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Dr. Donovan to make his opening comments to the inquiry.

Dr. Donal Donovan

First, I thank the Chairman and other members of the committee for the opportunity to appear here today. I am happy to provide them with my thoughts on the role played by the IMF in its relationship with the Irish authorities in the years prior to our economic and financial collapse.

I should mention that my observations are offered in a personal capacity. As members of the committee may know, it is relatively rare for IMF staff to be assigned to work in their own countries. I was not involved in the work on Ireland during my IMF career which spanned almost three decades. My thoughts are based on a detailed evaluation of the extensive documentation published by the IMF on Ireland in the build-up to the crisis, viewed in the light of my own experience with the preparation of similar documents for many other countries.

The independent evaluation office of the IMF, which, as its name implies, is an independent outfit and usually staffed by external persons, is currently undertaking an extensive assessment and investigation into the role of the IMF vis-à-vis the euro area in the years both prior to the crisis and during the crisis itself, with special focus on the experiences relating to Ireland, Greece and Portugal. Since I have been asked to work on this project, I thought I should mention it in passing.

By way of background, it may be useful to explain briefly some elements of the IMF's surveillance process over its members. Normally a team from the IMF visits each country for a period of about two weeks each year to discuss the economic situation and outlook and to review and assess the authorities' policies. A report is then prepared, called the Article IV consultation report, which is subsequently discussed by the IMF's executive board on which all countries, including Ireland, are represented. The report is prepared by the staff, not under the direction of the executive board. The report, together with a shorter document called the executive board assessment, is then published. This report is not subject to review or approval-clearance by the country authorities prior to issuance, except for checking for factual inaccuracies. Before being published, authorities may request deletion of what is called market sensitive information. However, this aspect is interpreted rather narrowly and would not, for example, cover deletions of IMF views that might be quite critical of a country's policies.

Between 2000 and 2010, with the exception of 2008, an important point which I will come back to later, consultations took place annually with the Irish authorities. In addition, in 2006 as part of the financial sector assessment process, FSAP, a separate specialised report was prepared and published on the state of Ireland's financial sector, and this report was discussed alongside the normal Article IV report.

In assessing all of this material, I believe it is helpful to distinguish between the period 2000 to 2007, that is, before the crisis broke, and the 2008 to 2010 period when the crisis began to emerge in full force and the content of the discussions was substantively very different. As an overall comment on 2000 to 2007 period, I think it is widely accepted, and it would be my personal view, that the IMF's surveillance process failed in Ireland.  Although, as I will discuss, some vulnerabilities were noted, the assessments by the IMF staff gave no inkling that a major disaster could be in the making. Adjectives such as "exceptional", "remarkable" and " highly impressive" were used throughout the first seven years of the decade to describe Ireland's overall economic performance.

Such overly positive assessments by the IMF were not confined to the case of Ireland and there is no doubt that the organisation did not see warning signals in many industrial countries in the build-up to the global crisis. However, the extent to which a country's economic and financial situation deteriorated so sharply and dramatically with minimal prior anticipation by the IMF, that is, in the Irish case, was to my knowledge probably unprecedented in the history of IMF surveillance. To help understand why such a major misreading occurred, four key areas covered by the consultation reports for Ireland need consideration: the properly market, the financial sector, the budget, and the macroeconomic linkages between these sectors.

First, in the case of the property market, in view of what ultimately transpired, it should be noted that the IMF staff did devote considerable attention to the residential property market. Key indicators, such as the movement in prices relative to rents, the increasing proportion of buy-to-let investors, the historical evidence from other countries' experiences over long periods, and the distorting role of the fiscal incentive regime applicable to property, were all highlighted repeatedly. The thrust of the staff view was that for most of the 2000 to 2007 period, house prices were somewhat overvalued and a speculative element was increasingly present.

Until around 2007, the Irish authorities did not accept the IMF's assessment, arguing that so-called fundamental factors such as the continued rapid increase in personal incomes given Ireland's high growth prospects, inward migration that would boost housing demand, prospective low and stable interest rates, and prevailing low levels of household debt justified the price surges that had occurred. It appears that, in essence, the IMF staff and Irish officials implicitly agreed to differ over this question. In addition, IMF staff had consistently urged from the beginning of the decade the introduction of a property tax and a reduction in mortgage interest relief to help counter a strong pro-house ownership bias. However, in quite candid exchanges in 2004 and 2006, Irish officials, as quoted in the staff reports, referred to "political, like insurmountable difficulties" associated with taking action on these fronts.

Although the message of likely property overvaluation was cited throughout, the IMF staff did not go so far as to suggest the existence of a possible bubble and did not speculate on the size or timing of a possible drop in prices. However, in 2007, the staff report explicitly endorsed the authorities', that is, the Central Bank of Ireland's, view that a soft landing was the most likely outcome. The CBI's judgment was rightly described later by the Honohan report - I should mention again, as the Chairman did, that I was a member of the Honohan inquiry team - as a "triumph of hope over reality". This cautious stance by the IMF may have been due to several factors, some of which may have operated subconsciously: difficulties in challenging definitively the Irish authorities' fundamentals argument; a fear of being seen to cry wolf too often, since the overvaluation thesis had been raised every year since the start of the decade; and also, perhaps, concerns about adverse market and perhaps public-political reactions.

Finally, a major weakness of the IMF's analysis was the neglect of the commercial property market. This aspect was not really dealt with in the CBI's financial stability reports either.

However, it turned out to be a crucial, perhaps the most crucial, element explaining the extent of the banks' later losses. My own jointly authored book on the Irish crisis with Professor Antoin E. Murphy, to which the Chairman kindly referred, pointed out that the surge in lending to developers was actually substantially greater than that to householders, especially when lending by foreign subsidiaries was included, and this latter category of lending was highly significant when, in the end, the bill came to be presented to Irish taxpayers. As an eminent scholar of financial crises, Charles Goodhart, once pointed out, "Banks are international in life, but are national in death". When the bill has to be paid, everything comes home to the country where the bank is located.

The second area is the state of the banks. Analysis of the financial sector always featured in the IMF reports but was given much more intensive attention during the 2006 FSAP update exercise. This involved a team of financial sector specialists undertaking a separate, more in-depth, look at the state of the Irish banks. Somewhat sad to say, their overall assessment was reassuring, if not indeed rosy. While, as with the property market, vulnerabilities were mentioned, the typical message was that the outlook for the financial sector was positive and that banking sector profitability and capitalisation were strong. The was no hint given as to the possible occurrence of a major problem, let alone of the potential for the crisis that eventually unfolded. As Governor Honohan has rightly stressed in his report and elsewhere, this clean bill of health from the IMF came at a particularly inappropriate time as it undermined whatever concerns might have been voiced internally.

Why did the IMF team get things so badly wrong? There are several explanations. First, the analysis was grounded largely on acceptance of the CBI view favouring the soft landing outcome for house prices. While some stress tests involved larger price falls, the possible rise in non-performing loans, NPLs, was, it appears, capped at 5% of all mortgage loans. Second, the neglect of commercial property lending was a crucial omission, Third, while the increased dependency on wholesale external funding by the banks was noted, no one considered what might be the catastrophic effect of a worldwide drying up of liquidity as actually occurred in 2008. Finally, the IMF team appeared to have had no inkling of the indecisiveness and lack of firm engagement underlying the detailed interaction between the Financial Regulator and key individual institutions, problems that were uncovered only much later by the Honohan inquiry.

These were serious shortcomings to which can be added the general approach at the time that favoured so-called principles-based, what is sometimes called light touch, financial regulation. The IMF, being a creature of its member countries, was undoubtedly heavily influenced by this prevailing philosophy. That said, in my view, it would have been incumbent on the FSAP report, as a minimum, to have posted a health warning and cited more explicitly the limitations that underlay the positive conclusions it presented. The Irish experience suggests that the absence of such warnings can seriously undermine the credibility of the IMF's work.

The third area is the budget. The last major area covered by the consultation reports was the budget. Until 2008, Ireland had been running small overall budget surpluses. However, the IMF staff generally urged that these surpluses be increased somewhat, both to counteract what was thought to be overheating, often described as using contra-cyclical policies, and to build up a reserve against future unknowns. By and large this recommendation fell on deaf ears.

A far more serious shortcoming in my view was the conclusion by the IMF up to and including 2007 that the underlying, that is, cyclically adjusted, fiscal balance, CAB, was in approximate balance throughout 2007. This CAB measure attempts to strip out so called temporary factors, such as higher than average growth or transitory revenue flows, that mask the true underlying fiscal picture. In Ireland's case, the IMF, together with the Department of Finance, went along with a common EU methodology used to calculate the CAB.

The problem was that this methodology assumed that the high output levels reached by Ireland in the first half of the decade of the 2000s, which in turn reflected the massive reliance on the construction sector, were permanent structural features. The same assumption applied to the artificial boost in revenues associated with the property boom. Using more technical phraseology, it was assumed that actual output was close to potential output, but the reality was the other way around. Irish output throughout the latter years of the boom was far above sustainable potential. After all, as was pointed out by very few at the time, there was a limit to how many homes people can actually live in. By 2009, the assumptions underlying the earlier IMF calculation of the CAB were clearly untenable. In a quite dramatic reversal, the 2009 IMF report re-estimated the CAB for earlier years using a quite different methodology. For example, the CAB for 2007 turned out to be a deficit of 8.7% of GDP compared with an originally estimated surplus of 0.7%, a change of more than nine percentage points in GDP for the same year. Seldom has the picture of a country's fiscal health deteriorated so sharply and so quickly. The question can be asked if, starting from 2009, a far more appropriate methodology was used, why this was not done in earlier years or at least presented as a variant of the standard approach that had been uncritically accepted.

The last area concerns the overall macroeconomic interlinkages. The various IMF reports did point out to some extent the vulnerabilities associated with particular sectors, that is, property, financial and fiscal, but they explore the dynamics of a possible downward self-reinforcing spiral such as eventually ended up happening. At best, some first round effects were considered. While precise quantification of a worst case scenario would have been very difficult, some key elements could have been addressed more explicitly. It is possible that the IMF reports did not go down this route because of the somewhat speculative nature of what was involved. It would likely also have been seen as highly alarmist, and provoked strong negative market and, one assumes, political and media reaction. Nevertheless, that complication could have been dealt with by raising the issues confidentially with the Irish authorities as opposed to including a discussion in the published staff report. However, there is no evidence available indicating that such discussions occurred. There could have been pressures both within the IMF and vis-à-vis the Irish authorities to dismiss the possibility of such very negative outcomes. The consensus, reflecting perhaps strong elements of groupthink, was to stay with the soft landing hypothesis and to hope that perhaps, in the end, our luck would hold out.

I will turn briefly to the second period, 2008 to 2010, when, of course, things were quite different. The 2007 report was the last rosy IMF report on Ireland. By the time of the 2009 consultation two years later, the picture had changed dramatically. The property market was in free fall, the budget deficit had exploded, unemployment was soaring and the full extent of the banking disaster was starting to emerge. However, no consultation took place in 2008. Normally, the consultation would have taken place as scheduled, unless the authorities indicated a desire to postpone it. The reasons underlying this hiatus are not in the public domain. The postponement meant that during this critical two-year period, from mid-2007 to mid-2009, there was no formal dialogue between the IMF and the Irish authorities. This must be considered a significant flaw. If IMF surveillance is to be meaningful, there should be at least the opportunity for timely inputs from the IMF at a time when, amidst global financial disarray, many key policy options were being considered on the Irish side.

In particular, there are no indications, at least on the public record, suggesting that the IMF staff provided input on the end of September 2008 bank guarantee, either before this decision was taken or afterwards. The 2009 consultation report described the guarantee but did not offer any views as to its appropriateness or otherwise. It did, however, contain a useful table summarising the key features of guarantees provided by various other countries during the past 30 years. This table is summarised as part of chapter 10 on page 214 of the book Dr. Murphy and I wrote. The chapter deals extensively with the guarantee decision. Perhaps contrary to what is sometimes said, it appears from this table that the coverage of the Irish guarantee was not that radically different from that contained in several other earlier guarantees.

Overall, it seems that around this critical time, the IMF did not provide sufficient timely professional technical advice to the Irish authorities. Whether this was primarily a supply side issue, perhaps because the IMF was busy elsewhere, or reflected demand side factors, because perhaps the authorities preferred not to hold the consultation in 2008, remains an important question to which I do not have the answer.

I thank the Chairman and committee members for their attention. I am, of course, very happy to answer any questions they may have on the foregoing or on any other related aspects covered in our book or elsewhere. I received a list of possible questions that committee members may raise and I am certainly happy to do my best to try to answer them as far as I can.

Thank you, Dr. Donovan. Before I bring in the lead questioners, he might deal with two issues. First, he might briefly distinguish the IMF's role from those of other international economic organisations. He might tell us why and by whom the IMF was set up. What is its purpose and who funds it?

Dr. Donal Donovan

I will try to be brief because that could be a rather long story.

Just a summary, Dr. Donovan.

Dr. Donal Donovan

The Chairman can ask me further about it if I leave anything out. The IMF was set up in 1945, following the so-called Bretton Woods Conference, to try to avoid, collectively, the bad policies that had occurred in 1930s. By now, nearly all countries in the world are members of it.

The IMF has two main functions. One is to lend money to countries that enter into crisis situations and that require bailouts, which we have seen recently. This function has been around for 50 years. It lent mainly to low-income countries, emerging market economies. Before Iceland in 2010, the IMF had not lent to an industrial country for 30 years. The last one was the UK in 1977, but now it is different.

The second function it has, which is what we are talking about today or what I mentioned in my statement, is that it is supposed to exercise surveillance, that is, discuss, analyse and offer policy recommendations, which may or may not be accepted, to member countries, which are then discussed collectively by the IMF board, as I mentioned.

It is possibly the case that the IMF has been more successful in the first activity, which one could call picking up the pieces, than it has been in the second activity in the area of crisis forewarning and prevention. The record would show over several decades that despite many efforts that has not been terribly successful, and the euro crisis would be a good case in point.

The IMF is funded by all the member countries, and the Chairman asked about this. It is like a credit union. Everyone puts in a certain amount of money and that amount of money is calculated; it is basically related to the size of the country in the world economy. There is a total pool of, say, 100, and everyone's contributions are calculated as a percent in regard to their relative size in the world economy. That determines what money they put in, and it also determines the voting power of countries within the IMF. For example, the US is the largest shareholder. It has about 16% of the votes. It puts in 16 cent on every dollar and it has, more or less, its exact equivalent in having 16% of the votes. I do not have the exact figure for Ireland but it is quite small. It has perhaps 0.2% of the votes and puts in 0.2% of the money. I hope that is helpful.

I wish to ask about two matters arising from Dr. Donovan's statement. This will probably arise in questions later and I would like to get some clarity around it. In the first paragraph on page 4 of Dr. Donovan's opening statement, he states: "However, in quite candid exchanges in 2004 and 2006, Irish officials referred to "political, likely insurmountable difficulties" associated with taking actions on these fronts." Is he referencing that from direct experience he has had that he could provide as evidence to this committee?

Dr. Donal Donovan

Yes. I am very happy to do that. This is a direct quote from the published IMF consultation report. If the Chairman will allow me a moment, I can give the exact reference. That particular quote is from 2004 and I will quote it directly: "the authorities noted the politically, likely insurmountable, difficulties of the removing interest-deductibility of mortgages or introducing taxation on property given the electorate's long history of attachment to, and preference for owning, property." That is on page 20 of the 2004 report. In 2006 - again this is a published document - the authorities "acknowledged the economic desirability of broadening the tax-base but pointed to popular opposition to increasing property-related taxes". That on page 13 of the IMF report of 2006.

In the last paragraph of page 8 of Dr. Donovan's opening statement he states: "However, no consultation took place in 2008." In the third line of that paragraph he went on to state: "The reasons underlying this hiatus are not in the public domain." He further went on to state: "This must be considered a significant flaw." Is Dr. Donovan coming before the inquiry this morning to put matters in regard to this hiatus into the public domain?

Dr. Donal Donovan

No. I would not be in a position to do so because whatever documentation that may exist concerning the reasons for this consultation, at least on the IMF side, is not publicly available, and it would not be possible for me to talk about that. A possible way to learn more about this could be to raise the issue with the Irish authorities side who may recall what happened.

Thank you. The first questioner this morning is Deputy Joe Higgins.

Some observers say that the role of the IMF changed significantly from initially encouraging co-operation economically between states and short-term loans for trade to conditionality attached to loans during the debt crisis in the 1980s and early 1990s in what was called the Third World. Does Dr. Donovan agree with that?

Dr. Donal Donovan

Conditionality has always been a feature of IMF loans and this is grounded in the legal requirement that if the IMF provides funds to a country, it has to have assurances that those funds will be repaid so that they will come back into the pool - it is like a credit union - and be available for another country potentially later. The basis for conditionality is that in order for the IMF to have such assurances that such funds will be repaid, it needs to be confident that the government is undertaking measures to reform, change and alter the policies that got itself into the problem in the first place. This is the basis of conditionality which has been there since 1950.

The IMF has always applied this approach in its lending activities. The groups of countries to which it lent have varied somewhat over time. There was some lending to industrial countries in first few decades of the IMF ending in the mid-1970s. There was continuous lending to low-income countries in Africa for many years. There was intensified engagement with middle-income countries. The Deputy referred to the debt crisis of the 1980s and, indeed, there were the crises in East Asia, Russia and Argentina at the end of the decade. The pattern of lending to different groups of countries has varied a little bit and now we are back into lending to industrial countries, but the principle of conditionality has always been there.

Why did the structurally-adjusted programmes become so controversial in the 1980s and early 1990s?

Dr. Donal Donovan

I certainly agree with the Deputy that they were controversial. They were rightly or wrongly - and one could debate this at some length - aimed at modifying policies that had been followed in quite a number of countries, which were - let us call them - relatively regulated policies, that is to say, relatively closed exchange and trade systems, an emphasis on import substitution, an emphasis on statement enterprises, an emphasis on wage and price controls and discouragement of private banking activities. Rightly or wrongly, around the 1970s and 1980s, many countries and many in the IMF and the World Bank felt that these policies had not been successful and had not led to economic improvements in these countries. The agenda - I agree with the Deputy's characterisation - was to try to change these policies. These were politically sensitive; they were politically difficult. Whether they worked well or not is a matter for debate, but I suggest one important point is that there has been one group of countries - it missed all of the terrible mess we have had over the past ten years - which has performed very well and whose economic growth performances overall has been remarkably positive. Those are the African countries over the past 15 years. Many would argue, again rightly or wrongly, that the policy changes they began to implement in 1980s and 1990s were finally bearing fruit and having a positive effect and that this contributed to what has been, which would be agreed by most observers, a surprisingly positive and sustained improvement in Africa's economic performance not just in terms of overall growth, but also in terms of reducing poverty.

Of course there is still poverty in Africa but on a wider range of indicators, the results could be regarded as quite positive.

Obviously, I cannot debate the issue with Dr. Donovan but given the horrific poverty and breakdown in Africa, some people would not agree with his assessment. Joseph Stiglitz, a world famous economist and recipient of the Nobel prize in economic sciences, said the following in his book Globalization and Its Discontents:

The IMF is not particularly interested in hearing the thoughts of its "client countries" on such topics as development strategy or financial austerity. All too often, the Fund's approach to the developing countries has had the feel of a colonial ruler.

What does Dr. Donovan say to that?

Dr. Donal Donovan

I would say that I would not quite share that characterisation by Professor Stiglitz, and I would not be alone in that view. The issues have been debated and will be debated widely and extensively. His view is one-sided and I do not agree with it. Of course countries are independent. To refer to anything coming from Britain, France or the United States as coming from an ex-colony - that may be the case. It is true that the IMF is run by those who contribute the most money. Again, that is the way it is. Those countries tend to be countries that are large and have had perhaps a colonial history so it is easy enough to say that the IMF is ex-colonial powers coming back again. I am not sure that is helpful.

Are they the countries that have headquartered the major financial institutions in the financial markets? They had most to lose or gain in the structurally adjusted programme situation.

Dr. Donal Donovan

Financial markets now are fairly well dispersed throughout the world. They are in Europe and in America and I am sure there are some in Asia. It is not sometimes clear where exactly someone is headquartered. One may be headquartered physically in a country but, in fact, one's financial operations may span several countries and continents. Yes, the IMF is headquartered in Washington which is not a major market financial centre but of course the political headquarters. The ECB is in Frankfurt and wherever. I am not sure what that tells me, personally.

Global Exchange, which describes itself as an international human rights organisation dedicated to promoting social, economic and environmental justice, observed in relation to the IMF's dealings with countries that have debt issues that the IMF ensures that poor countries made debt payments "by requiring countries to cut spending on education and health; eliminate basic food and transportation subsidies;... privatize national assets; and freeze wages." Does Dr. Donovan believe that to be true?

Dr. Donal Donovan

I would not agree with that characterisation and I would make a couple of points, very briefly. First, sustained macro instability in terms of financial problems, large budget problems and large debt problems are not conducive to any country, including low income countries, improving their growth performance in such a way that the country will then have more resources to pay for exactly the areas mentioned by the Deputy, namely, education, health and other matters. It is difficult to spend money when one is poor because one does not have money. What one needs to do is to try to get resources going into the country and one will then be in a better position to deal with these very pressing problems.

On the debt issue, in fact, the IMF has been strongly supportive of what is known as the highly indebted poor countries initiative, HIPC, which ended up, with the urging of the IMF, and it took some persuasion for others to join in, cancelling most of the debt, including the debt owed to the IMF and the World Bank, of the poorest and most highly indebted countries in the world. This was a very important step that took place about ten years ago. It led to precisely the positive effect that the Deputy mentioned, namely, the availability and release of resources for these activities. In terms of the characterisation of the IMF as squeezing blood out of a stone or extracting money from poor countries to pay debt service at the cost mentioned by the Deputy, I would not agree with that characterisation.

Does Dr. Donovan agree or disagree with the following observation, that the IMF routinely pushes countries to deregulate financial systems and that the removal of regulations that might limit speculation has greatly increased capital investment in developing country financial markets?

Dr. Donal Donovan

There is some truth in that, yes. I think the IMF, as I mentioned in my statement, was a creature of its member countries. Clearly, throughout much of the world in the period over the past 20 years, there was a general movement towards deregulation of financial markets and elsewhere. The IMF certainly did not push back in the opposite direction. It tended to support that, as its members countries, who after all do run the IMF and we should not lose sight of that, pushed in that direction. It is well recognised, and we do not have to dwell on it, that went far too far in the case of financial regulation. I think the IMF and its member countries would fully agree with that criticism.

Professor Black, in his testimony here, evidenced the policy of the United States in the 1990s when the Administration, he says, pushed quite extensive liberalisation in the financial area. However, Dr. Donovan, on page 2 of his opening statement, said:

As an overall comment, I think it is widely accepted that the IMF's surveillance process failed in Ireland.  Although, as discussed below, some vulnerabilities were noted, the assessments by the IMF staff gave no inkling that a major disaster could be in the making. Adjectives such as "exceptional", "remarkable", " highly impressive" were used throughout the first seven years of the decade to describe Ireland's overall economic performance.

On page 5, he asked, "Why did the IMF team get things so badly wrong?" and suggested a few explanations. On page 6, he said:

These were serious shortcomings, to which can be added the general approach at the time that favoured so-called principles-based, what is sometimes called light touch, financial regulation. The IMF, being a creature of its member countries, was undoubtedly heavily influenced by this prevailing philosophy.

Could it be that the explanation for the failure of the IMF to identify what was going on in Ireland, in reality, and the use of the adjectives "exceptional", "remarkable" and "highly impressive" were used during the bubble because the financial deregulation, privatisation and free reign given to major financial institutions in Ireland in fact made the country the star pupil of the IMF policy and the policies of the dominant countries within the IMF?

Dr. Donal Donovan

I am not sure I would quite go as far in that direction. The absence of appropriate financial regulation, and I think we all agree on that at this stage, was an important factor underlying the banks disaster and it led to all this lending for property, etc. that was too risky and uncontrolled. Here is a key point, and I think I share the Deputy's view, that this provided a false picture of the strength of the Irish economy because we were seeing these growth rates of 5%, 6% or whatever per cent in the first half of the decade that were not based on underlying export growth as they had been in the years prior to the millennium - the true period of the Celtic tiger perhaps. These growth rates were heavily based on construction - on a construction boom and on a construction bubble. In that sense, the rosy picture of the IMF, painted by the IMF which said the economy seems to booming along, continuing to grow and still among the highest growth rates in Europe, if not highest, I agree with the Deputy that that in itself was based on a lack of appreciation of the property bubble nature of this. Then one can say that the property bubble nature of this was in turn a good part influenced by the approach to financial regulation. In making those connections, yes, the rosy picture was linked indirectly but definitely to the deregulation.

Following on from the bubble and the inevitable crash, Global Exchange, which I mentioned earlier, alleges, first, that in regard to the IMF approach to the peso crisis in Mexico in the mid-1990s, and to the Asian countries, "...the IMF required governments to assume the bad debts of private banks, thus making the public pay the costs and draining yet more resources away from social programs".

Does Dr. Donovan agree with that?

Second, if the IMF therefore could be held responsible for encouraging moral hazard on behalf of the major international financial institutions by having them realise that they could be bailed out if they go over into a crisis, would it take any responsibility, some responsibility or none for this situation, the risks that were taken and the type of speculation that was allowed to develop of which witnesses like Professor Black here have evidence?

Dr. Donal Donovan

On the first point, and I would have to recall the precise details, the solutions to the Mexico debt crisis and the solutions to the East Asian debt crisis did involve restructuring, reorganisation and alleviation of the debts in question. The Deputy is right. It was not simply a question of "Let's wipe out all these debts" but the programmes, particularly in Mexico I recall, did involve a substantial write-down by creditors of the claims they had on Mexico. This was known, if I recall correctly, as the Brady plan. It would be overly simplistic for an author to say it was straightforward that the IMF required the Governments to assume all of these debts. There were quite a lot of bankruptcies and private sector write-downs.

The second point is a very interesting one and it is something the IMF and its executive board has grappled with over many years. There is a potential moral hazard problem if countries believe that if they get into trouble, the IMF will come along to help. I am not saying they would welcome that because, after all, there is political stigma and huge political costs associated with being associated with the bailout, but the more important point is that private lenders feel that if they get into trouble, the IMF will come along and bail them out. This can create moral hazard, and can cause riskier and inappropriate decisions to be taken by private lenders.

This has been wrestled with over several decades. It is not an easy problem. The IMF would wish to try to provide money to countries that are in trouble but the taxpayers in IMF countries do not want to see this money disappearing back out the door to private lenders who should have adopted a less risky policy.

I know this might come up a little later, Chairman, but it is interesting that in the euro debt crisis it is fairly well known that the IMF was quite keen at an earlier stage for some write-down of debt by Greece to be included as a critical part of the Greek programme, and this occurred in 2011 to 2012. It is also no secret that in the discussions on the Irish bailout the IMF, at least the IMF mission here in Dublin, explored quite a bit the possibility of some limited burning of senior unguaranteed bondholders.

The IMF has generally not been opposed to debt write-downs as a matter of principle. There are costs and benefits, but it does not have a philosophical objection to that. It approaches the issue in a pragmatic way and would tend, in my experience, to take the view that if a debt is unsustainable and some restructuring write-downs are needed, then it is better to do that earlier rather than later because if it ends up being done later there are a lot of costs involved in the meantime. It is a more nuanced approach to the handling of debt issues on the part of the IMF.

I will call Deputy Higgins again as we wrap up.

I welcome Dr. Donovan. Dr. Donovan said the IMF failed Ireland in terms of surveillance and asked how it got it so wrong. Dr. Donovan has 30 years of experience in the IMF. He has been involved in missions worldwide. What would he have done differently, and what recommendations could the IMF have made in respect of its surveillance of Ireland before the crisis? In what year should it have identified that there was a crisis looming?

Dr. Donal Donovan

I tried to cover some of those points in my statement but if I may, I will summarise the key elements. Yes, the IMF got it badly wrong, and more badly wrong than I have seen in almost any other country, and I do not think the IMF would disagree with that view.

Is it fair to say that Dr. Donovan regards it as the worst surveillance mission by the IMF of any country in which it was involved?

Dr. Donal Donovan

Certainly the most extreme case. "Worst" is a word I would prefer not to use, but it is very striking and as I said in my testimony, and I am no historian of this, I cannot recall in my experience a situation where the rosy picture turned so negative in such a short period of time.

What could the IMF have done? It pushed for counter-cyclical fiscal policies but with no effect, and repeated it every year.

In what year should it have called stop?

Dr. Donal Donovan

I think every year since 2000. If the Deputy looks at the reports, there was an urging by the fund staff that the Government should do a bit more. At that stage it was put more in terms of a higher surplus or a lower deficit - one and a half percentage point of GDP or something like that. More important was the collective failure to understand the underlying nature of Ireland's fiscal position, and this is the so-called cyclically-adjusted balance, the CAB. As far as one can tell, the IMF accepted unquestioningly the Department of Finance methodology, which in turn was based on the common EU methodology.

I am not saying I would have done this but I do suggest that it would have been appropriate analytically for the IMF to say, "Okay, that is what you do, that is what the EU does", and explain what it does and does not imply. The assumptions underling that approach are key and turned out to be flawed but let us change these assumptions and have another look at what the underlying fiscal balance of Ireland might look like in that situation, and it would probably have uncovered that the deficit was quite different. Whether this would have spurred action by the authorities is another matter.

On the financial sector, and looking at the banks, I suggest again some reasons. There were constraints. There were constraints of people. What Professor Honohan and his inquiry did to uncover the true story of what had happened in bank lending took four months of highly intensive work by a small team of specialised people. One cannot expect the IMF team coming to Dublin or to any country in two weeks to get even remotely into that kind of thing, so I am not sure it could have done more.

I do think it should have been more cautious in its assessments. It should not have accepted uncritically the soft landing hypothesis. It should have said, "This might happen but where is the evidence on the CBI's part that this is going to be a soft landing?", and there was not evidence in the 2007 report, as I am sure all the members are aware. There should have been more questioning. It should have been more critical. In terms of how far it could have gone, I think we all realise the environment one is in.

Would Dr. Donovan accept-----

Dr. Donal Donovan

If the IMF team were to say in the Sunday Independent that "we think a property crash is coming in the next six months and prices will fall by 30%", I do not know what the reaction would have been. Would it have been effective or not?

Was 2007 too late?

Dr. Donal Donovan

In my view, yes. I think that by 2007, and this is the case for the Central Bank, the IMF and other assessments, the damage had already been done.

On what date does Dr. Donovan believe the bells should have been rung by the IMF?

Dr. Donal Donovan

I think 2004, 2005 and 2006 was when the property bubble and associated lending went into overdrive.

In terms of the issue of crying wolf too often, how big a factor was that in the type of public assessment the IMF gave?

Dr. Donal Donovan

I cannot give a good answer to that because I do not know the minds of the people and have not had the opportunity so far to talk to them about it.

But on page 4 of his statement Dr. Donovan made specific reference to "a fear of being seen to cry wolf too often, since the overvaluation [thesis] had been raised every year since the start of the decade".

Dr. Donovan is putting down on the public record reference to crying wolf. I am asking Dr. Donovan about the basis of his assessment in that regard.

Dr. Donal Donovan

I will read the relevant paragraph because I have worded it very carefully and I do not want anyone to give the impression that I have prior information which I do not have. I do not have private information as regards the thinking of the IMF staff. I am just a person who reads these reports and who knows generally how people-----

With due respect, Dr. Donovan-----

Dr. Donal Donovan

The wording-----

With due respect, Dr. Donovan-----

Dr. Donal Donovan

Could I just finish?

Dr. Donovan had been at the IMF for 30 years.

I will let Dr. Donovan answer that.

Dr. Donal Donovan

The wording is quite important. One should be careful not to infer, perhaps, things that I would not have said or meant. "This cautious stance by the IMF may have been due to several factors...". I did not say crying wolf was a major issue nor do I wish to imply that I know anything about the thinking of the IMF staff or their relations with Ireland, because I do not. However, I am speculating - it is a reasonable thing to speculate on - that this may have been due to a number of factors. It is reasonable to suppose that if a person says every year that there is going to be a house price fall and it does not happen, then people will decide that he or she is saying the same thing again and it is boring and repetitive. I also surmise - I think this is stated in the Honohan report as well as our book - that the same fear or issue may have been present in the case of the Central Bank of Ireland. Again, that is only speculation.

Dr. Donovan makes reference in his report to the issue of the commercial property bubble.

Dr. Donal Donovan

Yes.

This is in page 4 of the report. Does Dr. Donovan believe that if there had not been a commercial property bubble, then there would have been no requirement for a bank guarantee or a bailout programme for Ireland?

Dr. Donal Donovan

We see what emerges when we look at the figures and the breakdown in lending to different sectors, including household lending, residential mortgages and commercial property. We can include the lending by foreign subsidiaries of the major Irish banks. As I said in my statement, this matters because if the banks go broke, the subsidiaries have made losses and those losses end up being added to the bank losses. We looked at this extensively in our book. I can point committee members to the page and they can see the table.

It will be referred to in the next question.

Dr. Donal Donovan

The increase in lending to what I am calling the developer sector was actually much larger than the increase in mortgage lending. It seems to me that if that sector had been looked after, the bill would have been far less. If it had just been residential mortgages, arguably, one could have managed. Yes, there would have been losses, indeed, large losses but-----

Does Dr. Donovan believe there would have been-----

Dr. Donal Donovan

It could possibly have been managed.

Could we have avoided a guarantee if that was the case?

Dr. Donal Donovan

Of course, at the time of the guarantee we did not know anything about the state of commercial lending, household lending or mortgage lending.

I am asking about it in hindsight.

Dr. Donal Donovan

I cannot say. I do not know.

Could we have had a soft landing?

Dr. Donal Donovan

The soft landing was never for the commercial property market. Development property land, as I understand it, fell by 60%, 70% or 80%, which was way beyond a soft landing or what happened to household prices, which fell by approximately 50% or 60%.

It would be a little misleading to regard these two categories of lending as totally unconnected. The reason developers were building housing estates and related entities in all parts of Ireland and elsewhere is because they thought there would be people who would buy the houses they were building, live there and enjoy the leisure centres and shopping centres close to these houses. In a way, there was some connection.

I will move on to Dr. Donovan's book. There is a reference on page 9 to the bank guarantee. The book by Dr. Donovan and Mr. Murphy deals extensively with the bank guarantee.

Is it in the statement?

I am referencing page 9 in the statement, but it is in the book as well. Dr. Donovan stated, "Contrary perhaps to what is sometimes said, it appears from this table that the coverage of the Irish guarantee was not that radically different from that contained in several other earlier guarantees". Then, subsequently, in an article in The Irish Times on 5 October, Dr. Donovan said that the guarantee in September 2008 was the least worst option. Can Dr. Donovan tell me of any other guarantee - he said it was not radically different from others - where the level of bank deposits guaranteed, amounting to €400 billion, were over two times GDP or the level of debt taken on by the taxpayer, amounting to €64 billion, was nearly 40% of GDP? Does Dr. Donovan still hold by his assessment that it was the least worst option? Does he believe, in line with his colleagues in the IMF, that bondholders should have been burned? Finally, does he believe that Anglo Irish Bank should have been allowed to fail?

Dr. Donal Donovan

Yes.

I will give you sufficient time to answer that and then I will go on to the next question.

Dr. Donal Donovan

There are a lot of very important and complex questions there.

They are all interrelated.

Dr. Donal Donovan

I will do my best but this might take a little time.

If members store up questions at the end, I will move on to the next question.

Dr. Donal Donovan

Some of these questions can only be answered with some explanation and in context. Our book refers to the table in the IMF report. It has far more detail and I am happy to provide the reference in the original report, which is on the public record. The Irish guarantee was certainly the most comprehensive in the sense that it included subordinated debt. I can come back and talk about that if people wish. None of the guarantees referred to in the IMF included subordinated debt. There is an issue there, of course.

The coverage in terms of bonds and senior debt was not that dissimilar - I have chosen these words advisedly - to that contained in many other guarantees. I cannot say it was exactly precise because one would have to look at all the legal documents. Ex post, it is probably true that the cost of the guarantee, either the ex ante cost of €400 billion covered or the ex post cost in terms of the €64 billion or €40 billion or whatever the number, was well up there among the highest. I think there are a couple of cases, perhaps Indonesia, where it was pretty high too. I cannot make an exact comparison.

The guarantee is of course very controversial. We examined it for our book and we discuss it at some length. We took the approach that was important to ask if the guarantee was very bad and such a disastrous decision at the time then what other alternatives were available and would they or might they have led to a better outcome. The analysis of this question starts with the proposition that, for good or bad, there was a major agreement among Ireland, Europe and elsewhere that no bank should be allowed to fail in Ireland, for good or bad. I will come back to that again on the question of Anglo Irish Bank, which was the last question that the Deputy raised.

The second key point was that Europe, in the form of the ECB, we assume, had made it quite clear to the Irish authorities in the days before the guarantee the previous week that there was no pan-European solution coming, and that every government, be it in Ireland or elsewhere, had to do whatever it took and whatever was needed to solve its problem. Given those two constraints - they may not be good constraints and they may not be right, but they were constraints - we have looked carefully at other alternatives. We looked at the alternatives of delaying, doing nothing, waiting a week, ELA, nationalising Anglo Irish Bank and excluding deposits. When we go through each of these - I am happy to spend as long as people are interested going through them, but I know there are time constraints - it is difficult to conclude, in our view, that either of them would have led to a materially different outcome at the end of the day, unless one assumes that senior bondholders were going to be burned.

Whichever way one looks at the analysis, one comes back to the same point. Are we going to burn senior bondholders? For example, it has been argued that only new debt should have been guaranteed and that existing debt need not have been guaranteed. That is true but it would only have made a difference if, at the end of the day when that existing debt fell due, someone concluded that we were not going to pay it or pay only part of it. In other words, we come back to the burning of the bondholders. Otherwise we would have had to give another guarantee to get the debt rolled over or we would have just paid it, which is what we ended up doing and is where the €64 billion came from. That is the fundamental proposition and, to put this as neutrally as possible, the record of the following four years showed that, for good or bad, the European position was that there was to be no burning of senior bondholders. I am not suggesting that was the right view but it was the view and it did not change. It did not change at the time of the Irish bailout in November 2010 nor in March 2011 and, indeed, it was supported by the United States at the time, as we all know.

I will need you to wrap up because I will bring Deputy O'Donnell back in at the end of this session.

Dr. Donal Donovan

At some stage, Chairman, I would like to come back to the Anglo Irish Bank liquidation issue.

This is my last point.

Can we deal with Anglo Irish Bank very quickly and then Deputy O'Donnell's last question?

Dr. Donal Donovan

This is quite important. Yes, the option was to discard the hypothesis that no bank should fail and to allow Anglo Irish Bank to fail - a disorderly liquidation. Of course, nobody knew or believed that Anglo Irish Bank's situation was as bad as it turned out to be at the time. There would have been no particular reason, therefore, to have allowed Anglo Irish Bank to fail because by definition and by assumption it was only facing a liquidity problem. Why would we have closed the door? I believe that the costs if, for whatever reason, Anglo Irish Bank had been liquidated would have been very substantial. I do not want to waste time repeating this but the Honohan report on pages 131 and 132 paints a very striking picture of the huge economic and social costs and disruption if there had been a disorderly closure of Anglo Irish Bank that night or the following morning, both directly and internationally and for other banks and so on.

Who knows what those costs would have been or how big they would have been. I think the case is made, however, and I would make the statement, based on my own experiences with other countries where there have been bank runs and disorderly bank failures, that the costs would have been substantial and they could not have been minimised. Whether they would have been as great as the cost of the €30 billion or €40 billion associated with the bank guarantee is, of course, something that only history can tell. Faced with the possibility of the collapse of Anglo Irish Bank that night if nothing were done, I do not think allowing Anglo Irish Bank to have collapsed would have been the right thing to do and I think it is unlikely that any government would have done that. Many academics and commentators have subsequently suggested what the Government should have done. In my view, people who lead a Government have to be risk averse. They cannot try various courses of action. If it does not work, the academics will be okay, but if one is the leader of a country that is in the middle of a crisis, one has to do things that will not lead to a catastrophe the following morning.

Dr. Donovan is significantly over time. I want to bring Deputy O'Donnell back in to wrap up. I call Senator Marc MacSharry.

I thank Dr. Donovan for coming to see us today. He mentioned earlier that the IMF is run by those who contribute the most money. Do such countries involve themselves in the conditionality of loans?

Dr. Donal Donovan

The process is that the staff, which is 98% of the people who work in the IMF, which is what I was, a civil servant - I was a Mr. Mody or a Mr. Chopra - conduct all of the discussions with countries. They prepare all of the analysis and all of the reports. The head of the IMF - Ms Lagarde at the moment - performs two jobs. One, she is head of the staff. She would have been my boss if I was still there. She is also chairperson of the executive board of the IMF. She has two roles. In her capacity as executive board chairperson she takes into account the prevailing broad view of member countries - all of the board members but probably some a little bit more than others, depending on the country. Her job is to approve the negotiating mandate for a team that would come to Ireland. She does that in her capacity as head of the staff. People cannot leave Washington unless there is an agreed position. She takes into account what she thinks the broad feeling of the board would be. It is through that process that decisions are made. The views of contributing member countries are definitely taken into account. If, for example, after negotiations, the staff come back with an agreement, it will not be a complete agreement unless and until it is signed off by the executive board of the IMF. The board will discuss the proposal to lend the money and the conditions attaching to the loan. There can often be substantial disagreements among members of the board. Some countries may wish for tougher conditions, others may think that the conditions are not tough enough, and so on. In controversial cases there can be extensive debates. At the end of the day the staff proposal is approved or not, and it is usually approved. The views of the board will definitely be taken into account the next time the staff have discussions. That is the way the process works.

I understand the process because Dr. Donovan has outlined it but he did say that the IMF is run by those who contribute the most.

Dr. Donal Donovan

Yes.

Every country has a representative in the IMF, but, for example, Ireland does not contribute the most money, so is there some kind of qualified majority voting system which allows some countries to be more equal than others?

Dr. Donal Donovan

Yes, there is, in the sense that decisions on lending ,which are key decisions, require approval of 51% of the votes. The IMF does not take votes explicitly. It very rarely takes votes where people put their hand up. In the sense of a discussion and discussions on difficult cases, most of the representatives of member countries would speak. The secretary of the board has a pretty good idea of the voting capacity of each chair.

I am sorry to interrupt but I have only two minutes left and I want to cut to the chase. Do the big boys dictate how the little boys pay off loans?

Dr. Donal Donovan

The big boys have more influence than the small boys.

Okay, that is fine. We have had testimony this very day, from Mr. Marco Buti of the European Commission, who, when questioned by me, said very explicitly that there was no rule, written or unwritten, no air nor no environment in which it was understood that no bank should be allowed to fail. Dr. Donovan has just said explicitly and clearly that there was an agreement between Ireland, Europe, and the IMF that no bank should fail. What is his source for that information?

Dr. Donal Donovan

May I just slightly qualify? I did not say the IMF. The IMF was not involved in this discussion at all, for other reasons.

Okay, we absolve Dr. Donovan of that, but Ireland and Europe-----

Dr. Donal Donovan

Yes, I think it is quite clearly stated in the Honohan report and the Nyberg report. The authors of those reports and their inquiry teams, of course, had extensive discussions with the specific key persons involved on the Irish side. I think their conclusion, which is stated very explicitly in their reports, was that this was a starting point and that it was a view not pushed on Ireland by the ECB but that was independently held by Irish officials, for good or bad. That was the view and there was only one view. I cannot find immediately the exact parts of the Honohan report but it is very clearly expressed there and I would be happy to provide the references.

Just to be clear-----

A last question, Senator.

It is the same question. I will be quick though. Dr. Donovan is referring to Ireland now on that issue and this is important because the committee heard this morning that there was no view in Europe that no bank should fail. There was no policy direction nor no understanding. Dr. Donovan is saying that there was such an understanding between Ireland and Europe. Can I ask Dr. Donovan what his source is for that assertion, from a European perspective specifically?

Dr. Donal Donovan

Perhaps I can rephrase it to make it a little bit clearer. Whatever about the European Commission, which Mr. Buti represented, the European Commission is one thing.

It was made very clear in the reports that the Irish view long before September 2008 had been that no bank should fail. This view was strongly supported and endorsed and was taken to be the common view within Europe. Certainly, the European Central Bank then and in subsequent years has not made any secret of the fact that no bank should fail in Europe.

I have a final question.

You are way over time.

Dr. Donal Donovan

In my view, the evidence is pretty conclusive when one looks at what is written in Honohan and Nyberg and in later public statements by the European Central Bank.

Okay. I will bring Senator MacSharry back in to add to that briefly. I will have to bring this to an end shortly.

Dr. Donovan mentioned Professor Mody earlier on. He spoke on Newstalk radio here in Ireland recently about some sort of debt restructuring. Would Dr. Donovan share his opinions? I am sure he is aware of them. In that context, does he feel Ireland got a bad deal from the troika, including the IMF?

To be clear, the Senator is asking for Dr. Donovan's opinion.

He clarified at the beginning that everything he is saying is his opinion.

I am clarifying that to assist the Senator.

The use of a term like "good deal" or "bad deal" implies a value judgment. The Senator is putting words into the mouth of the witness. We are looking for Dr. Donovan's own view of the deal. How does he see it?

Dr. Donal Donovan

My own view is that we were entitled to and should have got some burning of bondholders in November 2010 and March 2011. I will put it like this: we had a strong case for it. We did not get that because of opposition from the European Central Bank, which feared systemic consequences, and more importantly from the United States, the intervention of which is described vividly by the former Secretary of the Treasury, Mr. Geithner, in a page of his book.

That being said, and this is quite important, the magnitude of the failure to get something done on the senior unguaranteed bondholders has been exaggerated, in my view. There was approximately €20 billion of those out there. Perhaps €18 billion is the figure. I have seen reports that have estimated that one third of that was owned by Irish institutions - credit unions, pension funds and investment funds, etc. If one is talking about the net savings that might have accrued to Irish taxpayers, one has to take that out because the burning of these people would have been the burning of Irish people. Maybe €10 billion or €11 billion would have been left at that point. If we had decided to apply a 50% burning rate, on the basis that it was half our fault and half the bondholders' fault, we would have saved approximately €6 billion.

One could get to that number in a different way. If I recall correctly, Governor Honohan did so in his testimony. We could have decided not to burn any bonds held by Bank of Ireland or AIB because they were still in the market, their reputation was important and they were hoping to go back into the market at some stage. We could have decided to leave them untouched while burning 100% of Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide Building Society bonds that were eligible for burning. It so happens that this produces approximately the same figure - approximately €6 billion - that was mentioned by Governor Honohan, if I am recalling what he said correctly. I stress I am in no sense suggesting that €6 billion is not an important number. Of course it is very important, but we have to remember that it is not €64 billion or €270 billion. The amount of money that could or arguably should have been saved is €6 billion. My personal view is that to hang the whole cost to the taxpayer of the banking crisis on this particular non-event - the veto, if one would like to call it that - is to exaggerate its importance in the greater order of things.

I call Deputy Michael McGrath.

I welcome Dr. Donovan. I will continue with that theme for a moment. Do we know who the holders of the €20 billion of unsecured senior bonds that came out of guarantee at the end of September 2010 were? Another €20 billion of such bonds were secured as they had collateral attached.

Dr. Donal Donovan

I cannot say we know. I have seen a couple of newspaper articles which are presumably based on information coming from somewhere.

I need accuracy.

Absolutely. I ask because Dr. Donovan said a moment ago that a certain proportion of the €20 billion of bonds was held by Irish institutions.

Dr. Donal Donovan

I have seen estimates saying that they were, but I cannot-----

Does Dr. Donovan have a basis for that?

Dr. Donal Donovan

I have no independent information.

Dr. Donal Donovan

I am speaking on the basis of that assumption. It is clear that some of them were Irish. We all know that some Irish institutions had significant holdings in Anglo Irish Bank.

Okay. That is fine. We know as fact that the figure for the amount of unsecured bonds coming out of guarantee at its end was approximately €20 billion.

Dr. Donal Donovan

I believe it is slightly less. I have seen figures like €18 billion, €17.5 billion and €18.5 billion.

We have parliamentary questions with those figures.

Dr. Donal Donovan

It is around that number.

What is Dr. Donovan's understanding of the nature of the efforts that were made in November 2010 during the negotiation of the bailout programme and subsequently when the new Government came into office in the spring and summer of 2011 to impose losses on those senior bondholders? What is his understanding of the nature of the resistance to those efforts? Who did that resistance come from? Maybe Dr. Donovan could put some flesh on those bones.

Dr. Donal Donovan

I have no special information on the question of the process. All I have to go on is what others who are more informed and were directly involved have written about the matter. It is fairly clear from Governor Honohan's chapter in the Brian Lenihan memorial book that there was a proposal to undertake some possible burning. It is a very important chapter because he discusses this question in some detail. I ask the committee to excuse me while I try to find the right place in the book in question. I presume the mention of "negotiators on the other side" on page 81 of the book refers to the IMF. It probably does not refer to the ECB, as we know. Maybe the European Commission was somewhere in the middle. I do not know. Governor Honohan states:

Above all, negotiators on the other side dangled, but ultimately withdrew support for, the attractive idea of imposing losses on some bondholders (no longer covered by the original guarantee, which had already expired). It was on Friday 26 November that the Troika staff told Brian in categorical terms that burning the bondholders would mean no programme and, accordingly, could not be countenanced. For whatever reason, they waited until after this showdown to inform me of this decision, which had apparently been taken at a very high level teleconference to which no Irish representative was invited.

What was the teleconference? We can find a reference to it in a book written by the former US Secretary of the Treasury, Timothy Geithner. It is a little bit like a detective story.

Can Dr. Donovan call out the name of that book for the record?

Dr. Donal Donovan

Yes. It is called Stress Test: Reflections on Financial Crises.

Dr. Donal Donovan

I should mention in passing, for good or bad, that Mr. Geithner worked in the IMF for some years. Maybe some people might think that is good while others might think it is very bad. I would like to quote briefly from Mr. Geithner's book, which was published relatively recently:

By Thanksgiving 2010, Ireland's government and banks clearly needed a rescue package. And Europeans were openly debating how deeply to haircut creditors. On another G-7 call, I told them that was crazy.

I am pretty sure this was the teleconference that was referred to in the other book.

Was this in November 2010?

Dr. Donal Donovan

Yes. Mr. Geithner's book continues:

"You're going to accelerate the run," I said. "Nobody’s going to lend to a European government or bank that's showing weakness if they think you're going to impose haircuts as a condition for your rescues. You’re undermining your defenses, and it's going to cost you a lot more money in the long run". Trichet was deeply concerned as well, as animated as I had ever heard him. We argued that the Europeans couldn't force countries to restructure their debts until they had a credible plan to protect the rest of the system from contagion ... "You just cannot afford all this loose talk about haircuts", I said. That weekend [following the events described in the earlier paragraph] the Europeans approved an 85 billion euro rescue for Ireland, and changed the proposed design of the permanent firewall. While they didn't rule out haircuts, they agreed not to make haircuts mandatory.

That is all I know about what happened. It is very important to hear from the key participants in the rescue.

I have one final question. Dr. Donovan has made what could be regarded as guarded criticisms of the inquiry and its limitations and stated that he does not expect any smoking gun to emerge. Where does he think we should focus our work in order to get the maximum benefit from it? Given that he was part of the Honohan inquiry team, has he any advice or suggestions for this inquiry team as to how it can focus its work?

Dr. Donal Donovan

I would not like to be too presumptuous-----

We are just asking Dr. Donovan his opinion.

Dr. Donal Donovan

-----in suggesting anything to committee members. I think it is unlikely - I may be wrong - that any smoking gun will emerge in the sense that a huge amount of knowledge is available, and written about, on exactly what happened and why, who was to blame and the institutional and other failures. I do not know if anything new will emerge.

I used to think an inquiry was not necessary. This was my view after having worked on the Honohan and Nyberg investigations. However, over the past two or three years, I have come to the opposite view. An inquiry can be very helpful. Why? There are three reasons. There are many people who think there is a conspiracy which is waiting to be uncovered, that there are some dark secrets and a true story of what really happened and that if we had an inquiry we would uncover this. My personal view is that this is unlikely. People, however, need to see that this is the case. They need to be aware that there were catastrophic policy failures, to see it for themselves and to be made aware of it. Not everyone, in fact most people, will not have read the Honohan and Nyberg reports. I am sure very few people will have read our book. This is the first reason.

The second reason is that it is important that the individuals concerned who have, by and large, not appeared on the public record do so, and come and explain what they did. I expect many of them will acknowledge very serious mistakes. It is, again, important for public confidence that this happens. It is a cathartic effect but it is an important one to enable us to get over this whole thing.

The third thing is more of a suggestion. I think I made it in one of my media contributions. In addition to going back over what happened, which is necessary, it would be important if the inquiry in its conclusions addressed the question of what needs to be done to avoid a similar repetition in the future. We all know about lending and property bubbles and banks not being regulated. We all know this and this will be watched. However, there was something deeper, in my view, happening at the time. There was a failure of the economic policy making process. This involves Government institutions. Risk analysis was not undertaken. Scenarios that were central were too comfortably adopted. There was groupthink and a shutting down of concerns. All of these things were part of the culture in policy making. It would be very helpful if the inquiry were to consider some of these questions and ask itself what fundamentally needs to be changed in the Irish approach to some of these things to ensure that another crisis of whatever source-----

I will allow the witness to return to this in his concluding remarks because this will be a final issue in the discussion this afternoon. We will move on to Deputy Eoghan Murphy.

I thank Dr. Donovan for his presence here today. In an article in The Guardian in 2011, Dr. Donovan said the IMF was open to rescheduling of debt, whereas the EU was muddling through as it had not been involved in such bailouts before. In respect of the first part of that sentence, the rescheduling of debt, was it previously IMF policy, when engaging in a rescue, to reschedule, restructure or burn bondholders?

Dr. Donal Donovan

The IMF, if I may say so, has in general been more open to the concept of restructuring of debt, particularly sovereign debt. Many IMF programmes, which I mentioned in my response to Deputy Higgins earlier, have included this as a very substantial part, as otherwise the numbers will not add up. It is not possible to put the thing together unless creditors take a hit. This is a long-standing feature of IMF programmes.

However, it is not a general principle that always has to apply. One looks at each particular country, because there are costs associated with debt write-downs. Countries' reputations suffer. If one can get away without doing it, it is possibly better. However, if it is inevitable that there is no solution other than including that, the IMF is pragmatic and will say, "Let's do it". It will probably say, "Let's do it sooner rather than later because we are just postponing the inevitable".

I hesitate to speak too much for Europeans but, in various places, I have made the observation that the ECB would have been very reluctant to entertain too much in the line of debt write-downs and restructuring. Why is this? The IMF over 50 years has a lot of experience of what works and does not work. It sees what may have to be done sooner. The ECB is a young institution. It clearly wishes to safeguard its reputation, and having to preside over bank losses or debt write-downs for an institution that is ten years old is not something which would fit too easily with a central bank seeking to enhance its reputation.

The view might also be said by some in Europe who would oppose debt write-downs, at least the ECB, that it is okay for the IMF to say we should probably do this and things will work out better. However, what if the IMF is wrong and the costs associated with this turn out to be much higher than anyone had thought or that the IMF had said might be the case? The IMF people can always get back into their aeroplanes and go back to Washington. However, the ECB is the institution which would have to remain to pick up the pieces if the strategy did not work. For this reason, perhaps there is an element of conservatism on the part of the ECB.

Is it unusual for the approach to rescheduling not to be taken in this context? In the Irish context, was it unusual for the US Treasury to step in and change the normal approach of the IMF?

Dr. Donal Donovan

Every country is different. What happened in Ireland and what happened in the euro area was unprecedented in the history of the IMF and of the world. We had a currency union. We had lending for the first time ever to a member of a currency union. We had extraordinary circumstances as to what was the debt and the size of the debt. We had systemic failure, worldwide panic, Lehman Brothers and contagion. All of these things were unprecedented in the history of the IMF. It was therefore not a question of taking a standard cookie-cutter approach and applying it to Ireland. It could not be and it should not be.

Moving away from the concept of restructuring and looking at the approach from the EU and the IMF in terms of the actual bailout terms, if we look at the difference in the terms, the IMF loan was provided over a longer period of ten years and at a rate of 3.1%, whereas the EU loans were to be paid over a period of seven and a half years at a rate of 5.9%.

Dr. Donal Donovan

I cannot speak about the rationale of the financing terms associated with the EU component, although I understand, if my memory is correct, that when the rescue fund was set up, the idea was that it would be the cost of borrowing the funds from the markets or wherever, plus a margin of perhaps 1% to cover administrative costs or risks or something like this. This produced a number. Subsequently, this formula was changed very substantially, if I am correct, in the case of Greece. The administrative margin was eliminated and there was another way of looking at it. This had the effect of lowering the cost. These are essentially political decisions by the EU.

The IMF is a bit different. There is one formula which applies to all countries. There is a slight difference between very poor countries and others, but essentially there is a formula applied to all countries. It is not a political decision. It is not a question of people in the IMF wondering, "What will we charge Ireland and what will we charge Iceland or Greece?" It is a standard formula based on the average of treasury bill rates, current and prospective, with a margin.

Dr. Donovan mentioned in his opening statement why the IMF may not have been more explicit when it came to sounding the warning bell for Ireland. He states, "There could have been pressures both within the IMF and vis a vis the authorities to dismiss the possibility of such very negative outcomes." Dr. Donovan says this on page 8 of his opening statement. I know Dr. Donovan is only exploring possibilities, but does he raise it as a possibility because he encountered it in his own work in other countries?

Further to this, when we look at the reports coming from the IMF, we see that it identified a number of the shortcomings and the dangers, as did the ESRI. However, when it came to the reports coming out after the executive board had seen them, we also see it commending performance and talking about a soft landing. There are two points to the question, namely, interference Dr. Donovan may have experienced and then what can we read into the two messages coming out of the IMF reports vis-à-vis what the staff were seeing on the ground and what the executive board was reporting back to the Government.

Dr. Donal Donovan

This is a very tricky area. IMF staff do not, nor can they, work in a vacuum.

They are not just purely technocrats who are not aware of what judgments are being made, what weights people put on risk occurring and catastrophes happening or not, as the case may be. It would be unusual, let me put it this way, for the IMF report to say that a country is doing very well and then for that report to go to the executive board and for many directors at the board to say, "No, no, the IMF is completely wrong. That country is doing very badly". Alternatively, it would be difficult for the IMF to say that everything is going very badly and the board to say, "No, no. The staff is completely exaggerating the risks and costs. They do not understand. It is going very well." There is a certain - I am not saying "convergence" - way in which the views of board members can and probably should influence to some extent, albeit perhaps somewhat subconsciously, what the staff will write. There are no instructions from the board, there is no question of censorship, but we are all human beings and we get a line of what the general line of thinking is on a country, and that has to exert some subtle influence.

There are often differences of view on the board on a particular case and the staff have to navigate a way through those different views. The staff would have different views among each other. Sometimes, analytical issues and possibilities are discussed quite openly, but when it comes to the final nuanced judgment - adjectives often matter because adjectives are what get reported in the media - some of the sentences in those reports are very subtle.

There is a level of repetition. I am moving on. We are way over time. I call Senator Michael D'Arcy.

I welcome Dr. Donovan. I read his book. On the bank guarantee, on page 200, he wrote:

The decision provided a comprehensive government guarantee in respect of the financial obligations of the six domestic institutions - Allied Irish Banks (AIB), Anglo Irish Bank (Anglo), Bank of Ireland, Educational Building Society, Irish Life & Permanent and Irish Nationwide Building Society (INBS) - falling due over the following two years.6

Footnote No. 6 states:

Foreign banks operating in Ireland [from Dr. Donovan's piece this morning, he described these as foreign subsidiaries]-----

Dr. Donal Donovan

Actually, no. It was the other way round. It was lending by subsidiaries of AIB or Bank of Ireland abroad. For example, these banks had outfits in London and these undertook extensive lending.

Footnote No. 6 states:

Foreign banks operating in Ireland subsequently were offered the option of availing of the guarantee for a fee similar to that levied on domestic Irish institutions. However, in the end, they decided not to participate.

Which banks, of which Dr. Donovan is aware, were offered the extension of the guarantee?

Dr. Donal Donovan

The Senator should not take this as authoritative, as those involved would be able to give the precise answer, but my recollection is---

Dr. Donovan should be somewhat authoritative because when names get thrown into the room here, they enter a legal process. We need Dr. Donovan to be authoritative.

Dr. Donal Donovan

I am not the right person to answer that question because I might get it wrong.

Then I will explore Dr. Donovan's view on the bank guarantee. We were quoted the gross figure of €64 billion initially. Then Governor Honohan stated a figure of €40 billion. Would the figure have been higher if those banks that were offered the extension of the guarantee had decided to participate in the offer for them to be covered, and if it had been higher, does Dr. Donovan have any knowledge of the extent of how much higher it would have been?

Dr. Donal Donovan

I do not really have the details from the banks. It probably would have been higher but I do not have any view of the extent of the increase. However, it would have been in one direction only.

Billions of euro?

Dr. Donal Donovan

As to the size of their operations, they were pretty large. I would imagine, yes.

Tens of billions of euro?

Dr. Donal Donovan

I do not want to speculate, if the Chairman does not mind, because I do not have a basis for making a judgment.

In Dr. Donovan's book, on page 183, there is a chapter entitled, "9.3 Maximizing Liquidity Availability and the NTMA Deposit Episode". Would Dr. Donovan expand on the NTMA deposit episode?

Dr. Donal Donovan

It is discussed quite a bit in the preceding page, page 182, but let me briefly summarise it. Mr. Somers, the former chief of the NTMA, has put all of this down on public record and what we do in that part of our book is simply summarising it. I hope my summary is accurate. For the record, it is probably better to refer to the actual chapter and page.

Basically, what was happening was that the NTMA, it appears, was coming under some pressure or encouragement - whatever the right word might be - to continue to place some of its deposits with Anglo. If I recall, it was a relatively small amount, more like €50 million or less. It seems that the NTMA had some reservations about some of the operations of Anglo. Mr. Somers has explicitly spoken about this.

I am sorry, am I all right, Chairman?

If Dr. Donovan could deal with the institutions, such as the NTMA and the banks themselves, we can deal with the particular named personalities at a later time.

Dr. Donal Donovan

Fair enough. The actual basis for what is said here does come from statements from an individual but I will not mention the individual.

It seems, from the evidence, there was some resistance to this and in the end, it required a ministerial directive which is provided for under the arrangements regarding the NTMA for this deposit to be continued. That, in brief, was what happened, but there were some twists and turns along the road which are described in part of our book.

Could the NTMA have disallowed the option of placing funds into Anglo Irish Bank, if it had decided against it?

Dr. Donal Donovan

I understand that the law is quite specific. If a ministerial directive, which is a precise legal instruction, is provided to the NTMA to undertake a certain action, as it was in this case, the NTMA is required to take that action.

I refer Dr. Donovan to page 195, the second last paragraph.

Briefly, the Senator is on six minutes.

It states:

The NTMA reluctantly complied with explicit government instructions. However, one can conjecture as to what might have happened if the NTMA, given its considerable professional experience and standing, had sought to press at high levels its significant misgivings with respect to Anglo.

Would Dr. Donovan discuss that further?

Dr. Donal Donovan

It is, again, fairly speculative. I suppose-----

It is Dr. Donovan's book.

Dr. Donal Donovan

Yes, but the conclusion is still speculative. It seems to me a question can be raised. If an institution which has, for whatever reasons, significant concerns or doubts about a particular institution were to find a way to convey those doubts to Merrion Street or whoever, that might have been an important wake-up call. Of course, that is not the NTMA's job to do, but it could have perhaps taken an initiative to do so. Whether it would have been listened to or not, and whether it would have been told to mind its own business, is very difficult to say.

On Senator D'Arcy's question, what period are we talking about here?

Dr. Donal Donovan

We are talking about the period from late 2007 to 2008.

It is pre-guarantee.

It is pre-guarantee.

Dr. Donal Donovan

During the 2007-08 period, there were various exchanges that have been reported on this matter, in the media and by individuals.

Should the NTMA have offered that view to the Department of Finance?

Senator D'Arcy is over time. I call Deputy Phelan.

I thank Dr. Donovan. I have a couple of questions about the executive board that he referenced in a number of his answers and on page 1 of his statement. Dr. Donovan states that each country is represented.

How is each country represented on the board?

Dr. Donal Donovan

There are 26 seats on the executive board. Six or seven of those are occupied by an individual country - that is to say, the US has a seat, along with France, Germany, Japan, Russia, China and Saudi Arabia. The list has varied slightly over time. There are, of course, 187 members in the IMF, so the rest of the countries group themselves into constituencies. The chair is occupied by a representative of that constituency. Ireland has always been in a constituency with Canada and a number of Caribbean countries. The head of the constituency is the representative of the Government of Canada, who sits on the board. If he or she is not available for whatever reason, then the alternate executive director, which by tradition and agreement has always been an Irish person, sits there instead. The alternative executive director is appointed by the Irish authorities. It is a political appointment in that sense. It has nothing to do with the staff - people like me. The tradition in Ireland has always been that this rotates between a Central Bank person and a Department of Finance person. For example, the present alternative executive director is Mr. Michael McGrath, who I am sure is well known to the committee. He is a former senior Department of Finance official. Before that it was Ms Mary O'Dea, who was a former consumer director of the Central Bank.

Following on from that, how did it come to pass? I am looking at the list, which includes Antigua and Barbuda, Bermuda, the Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Dominica, Granada, Jamaica, St. Kitts and Nevis, St. Lucia and St. Vincent and the Grenadines. It seems like a very strange constituency for Ireland and Canada to find themselves in, concerning the executive board of the IMF.

Dr. Donal Donovan

Countries are free to, and do, negotiate among themselves. There is an awful lot of toing and froing about how they decide to group themselves. That process is far removed from people like me on the staff. It is very political. We have nothing to do with it, so I do not know how it came about, but I believe it goes back a long way. When I joined the IMF in 1977, the constituency was then what it is today. I would say it dates from the founding of the IMF, perhaps.

I want to ask about the overall tenor of Dr. Donovan's statement today on how the IMF's analysis failed Ireland. It has also been quoted by other members. Dr. Donovan went on to refer in detail to absences from the analysis, particularly with regard to commercial property and what he referred to as CAB, the cyclically adjusted balance, which has a different connotation from what we would normally be used to. What purpose does the analysis actually serve if, on the one hand, as Dr. Donovan said on page two, it is not binding and, also, is not referenced to the member states afterwards? Pretty damning evidence has been given by Dr. Donovan today as to its effectiveness. What is the point of the analysis taking place at all if it has been that ineffective?

Dr. Donal Donovan

There are two different questions. The first is whether the analysis is appropriate in terms of coverage, depth and so on. The second is whether any notice will be taken of it. They are two slightly different questions. The issues I discussed here were essentially to do with the faulty analysis or incomplete analysis of the IMF part. Whatever the analysis is, whether it is good or bad, it may have some impact. In the case of Ireland, the positive indications given as to the state of the financial sector were somewhat counterproductive, as the Governor of the Central Bank, Patrick Honohan, said, because they provided a message of reassurance when that was not appropriate.

More generally, there is a problem in that although the IMF's advice is published and the views of the executive board - which usually endorse the staff views, but not always - are published, governments can and do ignore this advice. Sometimes they disagree with it. This is quite common in the UK, for example. Over the years, the UK Chancellor has often said: "That's an interesting report. I agree with much of it, but I strongly disagree with a, b and c." It could be argued, therefore, that a positive role of the IMF is to encourage public debate, encourage exploration of issues and encourage greater public awareness of matters, and to do so indirectly through peer pressure. If all the other countries say to one country, "Your country is really doing bad things. Our collective view, based on experience, is that you should change the policies," that country may say, "Maybe these people have something to say."

In Dr. Donovan's experience, has that ever happened in a developed country?

Dr. Donal Donovan

If it happened, the government that changed its policies would not admit that it was because of IMF influences.

A last question, Deputy Phelan.

My last question relates to the cyclically adjusted balance, to which I referred. Dr. Donovan referred to Professor Honohan's report. Some 30% of the total tax take was from cyclical taxes, primarily related to property. How is it that the IMF failed to notice that? Can Dr. Donovan elaborate and say whether that has been corrected sufficiently?

Dr. Donal Donovan

I think it would perhaps be going too far to say the IMF did not notice it. It did have some references to the question of broadening the tax base, which can certainly be interpreted as reducing the dependence on the taxes in question. I think I referred to that in my statement. However, this was not highlighted. This was not given, at least in my view, sufficient emphasis. It was not put up front and centre as a major issue, and I think that was unfortunate. I do not know quite why that was not highlighted. I would have thought that, as a minimum, it would have been appropriate for the IMF to explore the sensitivities of revenues to alternative states of the world, including one in which all or most of the taxation income from the property sector disappeared. That might have sounded greater alarms. However, it did not do so, and I am not quite sure why.

I am going to move on, because we are way over time.

Has it been corrected?

Dr. Donal Donovan

In what sense? I am not sure I quite understand the question.

Does Dr. Donovan feel that if an analysis were to be carried out on country X now, alarm bells would ring?

Dr. Donal Donovan

Yes, I think, in a general sense. The IMF went through a lot of soul-searching on this. It published its own report on the failures in the period up to the crisis. It was very candid and made no bones about it. There were problems of groupthink being captured by all kinds of philosophies about deregulation and so on. All of these problems were laid out. I hope that in the future this lesson will have been learned. One always hopes that.

I need to move things on, because this committee room is scheduled for use at 2.30 p.m. and we are way over time for both sessions today.

I welcome Dr. Donovan. Does he think the design faults in the euro played a part? Does he think we were aware of that role? How did a very conservative banking system give the IMF the biggest bust it ever had?

Dr. Donal Donovan

The design flaw is probably fairly well known. The Stability and Growth Pact, the original one, had two essential problems. First, some large countries were allowed to break the rules and get away with it. Of course, if that happens, then everyone else says, "We can't be too worried about that. We will do the same." The second problem was more fundamental - the problem of the cyclically adjusted balance - in that the Stability and Growth Pact either did not refer to the structural balance or, if it did, it got it wrong because it measured it wrongly. There was nothing in this EU-wide system which was going to detect the massive flaw in the Irish budgetary position. This was true, I understand, to a significant extent in a number of other countries, such as Spain.

The second design flaw was the absence of centralised bank supervision or transnational bank supervision. There were reasons for this, political and others. Everyone was supposed to look after their own banks, but the problem was that when the banking crisis came, whatever we had thought about fiscal stability or the Stability and Growth Pact, it was immediately torn up. That was because, when one has bank failures, inevitably, to some extent, governments find themselves with an obligation to at least put in some fiscal resources, so the fiscal ceiling goes out the window.

Those were the two fundamental flaws. They have been tackled to a significant extent in the reforms. We may have to wait until some stresses and strains appear in the system before we know how solid those reforms are and how firmly they will stick if the going gets a bit rough. We do not know yet.

You say the IMF had no inkling of the indecisiveness and lack of firm engagement underlining the detailed interaction between the Financial Regulator and key financial institutions, problems that you and Professor Honohan discovered only later. Would it have been better if we had had a separate Financial Regulator? The IMF would then have been able to say "We met an institution that was not doing its job," rather than "We met a bit of an institution and some of it might have been doing its job but it was all okayed by the Central Bank." We have had some evidence that this task should not be performed by central banks.

Dr. Donal Donovan

The merits of the structure were much debated in the history associated with this. There was the McDowell report and then there was an uneasy compromise which led to the architecture that prevailed until 2009. This was messy, but the Honohan report makes a fairly strong argument that, while it was inconvenient and caused some complications, it was not a significant factor underlying the regulatory failure and Central Bank oversight failure. With regard to the IMF assessment, it did meet, very extensively, with the Financial Regulator component in Dame Street, and much of its detailed analysis would have been based on data provided by the Financial Regulator. They would have discussed the state of the banks. I am not sure the messy division of labour really lay at the heart of the weakness of their assessment. There were other reasons, which I refer to in the statement. That said, I think we all know it is much better to have the present structure, which came into place soon after, in 2009 - just one institution.

Ireland and Canada, when they were sitting together at the IMF, obviously never discussed banking, because Canada did not have a banking crisis. Did we learn anything from sitting with the Canadians at the IMF?

Dr. Donal Donovan

That is true. It is interesting. Canada has been quite justifiably proud of the fact that among all the major countries, its banks seem to have withstood the shocks. It has a somewhat different banking system, although I will not spend time on that. It is true that the Canadian executive director would have come to Ireland, by the way; although it was the Irish consultation, one would normally find that the head of the constituency would be part of the process in Dublin. Whether the Canadian executive director might have raised questions about the state of the Irish banks based on his own knowledge of the Canadian system is a fascinating question. I do not know.

Finally, I ask Dr. Donovan whether he sees a parallel between two instances. He said that dialogue between the IMF and the Irish authorities did not take place in 2008, and there seemed to be a similar breakdown in communication, according to the Honohan report, when the Central Bank disappeared from the picture in early September and did not really come back in until the letter from the Governor on 18 October. Does that indicate complete disarray in public administration over that period - a lack of communication and a lack of dialogue?

Dr. Donal Donovan

Of course the IMF question is a different one. Regarding the interactions in the period up to the guarantee, August is a month when a lot of people are away. One senior person was unavoidably away because of personal circumstances. In early September, there was, as I understand it and as described in the Honohan report, a concerted effort to ensure that the Department of Finance, the Central Bank and the regulator were meeting frequently to deal with the crisis, but of course the crisis was moving very fast, and preparations had not been as great as they should have been. The tsunami came too quickly to get out of they way or to have protection.

Professor Honohan, in his report, summarises by saying, "It is clear that a major failure in terms of bank regulation and the maintenance of financial stability failure occurred." As a member of that team, you obviously agreed with the findings of this report. What would you say about the fact that no one resigned, nor was anyone asked to resign, given the strength of that statement?

Dr. Donal Donovan

That is a good question. It does not seem to be the case in the Irish tradition that whatever individuals may have been in charge at a particular public institution when there were policy failures see it as their duty to move aside, nor is it suggested to them that it is their duty. That is a broader question about how we assess collective responsibility, and individual responsibility. Ministers take decisions, but what is the role of civil servants? It is a very big issue. In the case of the banks, though, there was a certain - or, more than certain, a fairly substantial - move towards encouraging those who were perceived to be responsible to move on. That happened to a fairly substantial extent. The issue of civil service and responsibility is a deep one, and I do not know the answer to that question. In the IMF, decisions are taken collectively. There is huge internal debate among the staff, more than many people might think. It is not a monolithic institution at all. Ultimately, however, it is a collective institution, so one cannot say Mr. X was personally responsible for a decision on whether to burn bondholders, for example. That is not the way the IMF works, for good or bad.

Dr. Donovan said in his own statement that the cautious stance by the IMF may have been due to several factors, including "difficulties in challenging definitively the Irish authorities". What do you mean by that?

Dr. Donal Donovan

If you were to go into it a little bit more, the Irish argument was "We are in a different world." House prices are permanently higher and the whole environment in which we were operating was different. I had earlier described these fundamental factors. The problem is that it is very hard to model these factors explicitly. Obviously they were present to some extent - a significant extent - but to say "Well, they explain 50% of the increase in house prices and the other 50% is bubble," was very difficult. It could have been 60% or 70%. There was a lot of debate about this, which can be seen in the reports. The IMF would say it looked at the fundamentals but the Irish authorities said "Yes, but you have not taken into account confidence factors, the return of emigrants or the number of immigrants." All of this was used to back up the suggestion that we were going to grow by 5% or 6% for the next five or ten years. What I am saying is that this debate was always going to be a little bit inconclusive, and that is how it ended up. One side did not really convince the other side.

You say very clearly that analysis of the financial sector always featured in the IMF reports, unlike the European Commission reports, which did not do that. Given what the IMF said about the financial sector - that it was in good nick, if you will excuse the expression - is it possible that the IMF was lied to by the banks?

Dr. Donal Donovan

No, I do not think it was.

Senator O'Keeffe, you know the rules. You know from your own experience the problem with accusations of lying.

I said, "or not."

Please. Actually, I will ask you to withdraw the question and put it again.

How did it arise-----

Can you reformulate that question? I do not even want it on the record.

How did it arise that the IMF, which always did this work - as Dr. Donovan said, analysis of the financial sector always featured in IMF reports - gave us an opinion about Ireland that clearly was not the case? Professor John FitzGerald, when he was here last week, said that while the ESRI also did not look at the financial services sector - he used the words "in or about" - it would actually have been quite easy, had it looked at that sector, to see what there was to see. He did use that terminology - forgive me; I do not have the quote - but he did say it would have been easy. If it would have been easy for the ESRI why was it not easy for the IMF?

Dr. Donal Donovan

It is a fair question. Mr. Nyberg said something very similar in his report. He said - I am paraphrasing - that it should have been obvious to anyone who had some experience with financial market behaviour that questions needed to be raised about what was happening in the banks.

Indeed. Why did this not happen?

Dr. Donal Donovan

It is a very fair question. People did not ask those questions. I can only say that in the case of the IMF, I have listed some of the explanations - I would not use the word "justifications" - at the end of page 5 of my presentation. The neglect of commercial property lending, for example, is a very important issue that has come out more clearly. Why did the IMF not look at the massive increase in developer lending? I have heard two reasons being mentioned. Of course there is no good explanation. First, many of these developers had properties in different parts of the world. They had different kinds of properties in different markets. I believe the view held by the regulators was that, while one part of this market might fail, or one type of product might fail, it would be unheard of for them all to go down together, since they were scattered in different places. It was argued that this had never happened before in a property market. I think that was an element. Second, nobody knew anything about the kinds of things that appeared in the section of the Honohan report dealing with what was really going on in commercial property lending. Given that nobody knew about the problems with bank guarantees and inadequate documentation, it would not have been reasonable for the IMF to have known about them. That was a big factor behind the property development collapse.

Thank you, Senator.

I cannot possibly be out of time.

The Senator's seven minutes have just elapsed. I call Deputy Pearse Doherty.

I had better speak fast. Rightly or wrongly, there has been a kind of narrative in this State for quite a while that we lost our economic sovereignty and that the IMF dictated the terms as part of the troika. As a people, we have heard some of Dr. Donovan's IMF colleagues who were involved in the mission in this State recounting their own views in the media. That happened again this week. I would like to ask Dr. Donovan about what his IMF colleague, Dr. Ashoka Mody, had to say on Irish radio - I think it was Newstalk - about the troika deal. I want to quote him directly. When he was asked whether he thinks Ireland's new Government missed an opportunity to strike a deal, he said:

Absolutely. The new Government had so much going for it .... There were clear mistakes that were made for a decade at least when this new Government came in. There was a burden of debt that would legitimately be declared as an odious debt.

I would like to ask Dr. Donovan, on the basis of his knowledge, his experience and his workings in the IMF, whether he subscribes to or dissents from the view put forward by Dr. Mody that Ireland had an opportunity to negotiate the terms with the IMF and other members of the troika.

Dr. Donal Donovan

I should say firstly that I have been asked this before. Dr. Mody has spoken on a number of occasions over the past two years. It is very unusual for a recently retired former member of a team that was heavily involved in negotiations, which were still ongoing when he first spoke, to discuss on the public record his views on the decisions that were or were not taken. Having being associated with the IMF for almost 40 years, I cannot recall any such case in my experience. I just wanted to give my personal view, which is that it was quite unprecedented. One can argue about the merits of it, but I thought I should say that to convey how the IMF works. I think I was asked the substantive question asked by the Deputy on a programme yesterday morning. It would not be correct to say that Ireland did not try to negotiate a deal with respect to the famous €20 billion relating to unsecured, unguaranteed bondholders. By all accounts, this was certainly raised and pushed quite hard in November 2010, but it was rejected for good or bad reasons.

Can Dr. Donovan explain his comment about this being "pushed quite hard"? What is his understanding of how it was "pushed quite hard"?

Dr. Donal Donovan

I do not know the details. I can refer only to the Governor of the Central Bank, Professor Honohan, who was present in all of these discussions, whereas I certainly was not-----

Can I just clarify-----

Dr. Donal Donovan

He has made it quite explicit that this proposal was there. It was being discussed but then it was vetoed.

Can Dr. Donovan clarify that in light of the evidence he gave earlier? Is he suggesting that one conference call equates to being "pushed quite hard"? Is that the only evidence he has to back up his statement?

Dr. Donal Donovan

It has been widely reported that a proposal that was on the table and was discussed received at least some possible support from the IMF mission that came here to negotiate in November 2010. This was confirmed in Professor Honohan's own words in a paragraph of the book from which I quoted earlier. I refer to the Brian Lenihan book, rather than the Geithner book that mentions the teleconference. I assume this is-----

That has been laid down here as well. In Professor Honohan's earlier engagements with this inquiry, the issue of revisiting this during the nexus phase was discussed. It is already a matter of record.

Dr. Donal Donovan

Yes, I realise that. I want to reiterate briefly that this is my source. I think it is an important source because two of the key figures who were involved in this have gone on the record to describe what happened.

I am probably half way through my time at this stage. When Dr. Mody was asked whether the Government missed an opportunity, he responded by saying "absolutely". He went on to say "there was a burden of debt that would legitimately be declared as an odious debt". Is that something to which Dr. Donovan would subscribe or from which he would dissent?

Dr. Donal Donovan

I do not subscribe to the second part because I think the term "odious debt" has a very particular connotation. It is associated with debt incurred by dictators in certain countries before being used for their personal gain and spirited to Switzerland. I would quite strongly disagree with the use of that term. I do not agree with the characterisation in the first part of the Deputy's question. If one says that an opportunity was missed, one is suggesting the opportunity that existed was obvious and easy to take, but somebody missed taking it. That is how I understand that sentence. That was not what actually happened. In November 2010 - and again in 2011, which has been widely reported too - the Irish authorities tried but they did not succeed. It was not for the want of trying.

I ask Deputy Doherty to put his final question.

I want to go back to the question of "odious debt". It is a bit frustrating that we have not even got past this first question. Dr. Donovan said that the term "odious debt" is usually applied to dictators, etc. I would like to refer to the quarterly magazine of the IMF, which talks about "the legal doctrine of odious debt". It suggests that "sovereign debt incurred without the consent of the people and not benefitting the people is odious and should not be transferable to a successor government, especially if creditors are aware of these facts in advance". Does Dr. Donovan believe that Dr. Mody would be familiar with the international concept in law of "odious debt"? Why would he make such a claim? Does Dr. Donovan believe odious debt is not what the IMF's Finance and Development magazine has outlined that it is, but instead belongs to dictators?

Dr. Donal Donovan

I cannot say whether Dr. Mody was referring to, or intended to refer to, the legal definition or to the commonly used phrase. The term "odious debt" has been around for quite a long time. It is commonly used by people in the international community to refer to a particular kind of debt that was incurred to buy weapons or arms or to secrete funds in Switzerland. I am not disagreeing with the definition the Deputy has read. It is the first time I have seen it. I cannot say what Dr. Mody was referring to.

We need to wrap it up.

Would Dr. Donovan subscribe to that definition, or would he dissent from it?

Dr. Donal Donovan

Is the Deputy asking whether I believe it refers to Ireland's debt?

No. I am asking whether he subscribes to that definition of "odious debt".

Dr. Donal Donovan

I am not a lawyer. If the lawyers say that is what it means in international law, I would not quarrel with their definition by any means.

Before I bring matters to a conclusion by bringing in Deputies Higgins and O'Donnell, I would like to clear one or two matters up with Dr. Donovan. I welcome his comments and views on the inquiry and the work it is doing. His position seems to have evolved from his earlier one. Has Dr. Donovan's position on the guarantee evolved, or is it very much what is was? He previously suggested in the middle of the crisis that it was the best option and the best solution, regardless of hindsight. He seems to be presenting a view to the inquiry this morning that the guarantee as it was implemented was the best option. Is that a correct reading of Dr. Donovan's presentation?

Dr. Donal Donovan

The debate on this issue has raged, is raging and will continue to rage.

In the context of the analysis and the conclusions - which are difficult to summarise in one sentence and which are contained in our book - I would continue to hold that view. When one considers all of the alternatives, namely, waiting, doing nothing, letting Anglo fail or using large-scale ELA, I do not have an axe to grind here, but my honest view is that I have yet to see a strong set of alternative proposals which would have been likely - this is a matter of judgment - to have led to a better outcome at the time, particularly in light of the state of knowledge and the costs associated with bank failures, than the guarantee. Of course, the guarantee is terrible and nobody is suggesting otherwise. We all know the costs associated with it.

The IMF does not do guarantees; it does bailouts. Dr. Donovan has 35 years' of experience of IMF interventions, etc. In his view, did the way in which the guarantee was designed have anything to do with Ireland being obliged to enter a bailout programme some two years and two months after its introduction?

Dr. Donal Donovan

I am sorry; I did not quite catch the last part of the Chairman's question.

Was how the guarantee was designed in any way related to Ireland entering a bailout programme two years and two months after its introduction?

Dr. Donal Donovan

It is a very speculative question. Clearly, the guarantee led to the high costs which, together with the disastrous budgetary situation, is what finally brought the bailout. If the guarantee had been different and if some bank had been allowed to fail, either completely or partially, who knows what would have happened? The immediate direct financial costs would have been less to the extent that they would not have included whichever bank or banks' liabilities were written down or burnt.

Does the bailout have a relationship to the guarantee at any significant level?

Dr. Donal Donovan

Not in a direct sense. The bailout was the result of Ireland's insupportable debt problem. We had a huge budget deficit that could not be financed because nobody would lend to us by November 2010. Why was that? We had a major budget problem that was quite independent - I must stress this point - of the size of the banking debt. It was simply to do with the difference, on a day-to-day basis, of running Government. That was one component. On top of that were the costs which stemmed from the guarantee. If the €64 billion had been less - for example, if it had been €40 billion - I do not know-----

Do the bailout and the guarantee have a relationship to one another?

Dr. Donal Donovan

The effect of the guarantee was to create the conditions, among other things, which led to the bailout.

Earlier, Dr. Donovan stated, "In addition, IMF staff had consistently urged from the beginning of the decade the introduction of a property tax and a reduction in mortgage interest relief to help counter a strong pro-house ownership bias." Why is the IMF opposed to ordinary Irish people owning their homes as opposed to spending their lives at the mercy of landlords? Dr. Donovan also stated, "The thrust of the staff view was that for most of the 2000 to 2007 period, house prices were somewhat overvalued". The research available to us shows that from 1996 to 2006 the price of an average home increased each year by the equivalent of the average industrial wage. Is it fair, therefore, to state that they were somewhat overvalued? I do not know of a single instance where an international or a national organisation - such as the IMF, the EU Commission or the Central Bank of Ireland - uttered an expression of concern regarding that young generation of working people who were the victims of the huge inflation in house prices which took place between 1996 and 2006. At that time, the periods of repayment relating to mortgages were extended from 20 years to 40 and lending reached unsustainable levels. Those to whom I refer were the victims of what some people call "overweening profiteering and speculation". Why was that the case?

We are in the process of wrapping up proceedings. The Deputy should not seek to revisit these matters in detail.

Why did the organisations in question not say anything about the people who are the victims of what happened?

Dr. Donal Donovan

I do not think the IMF is in any way opposed to people owning houses. However, in the case of Ireland, there was the taxation system and this encouraged people to engage in widespread house purchases. In turn, this led to individuals buying not just one but a number of houses. As a result of the fact that there was no significant capital gains tax or a property tax and that there was substantial mortgage interest rate relief, relative to other countries - this is all relative - the fiscal structure in Ireland leaned towards and favoured more than the average in the context of the acquisition of houses, including for investment purposes. Eventually, it ended up with people purchasing houses for speculative purposes. That is the point at which the IMF was trying to get.

On the observation with regard to houses being "somewhat overvalued", I must stress that I am only describing what the IMF said, I am not defending its statement. The IMF was reluctant - as is the case with many other entities - to put a number on how big it believes an overvaluation may be. This is partly because there are dozens of different calculations one can make and people come up with different views. My personal view is that it could have been somewhat more explicit on this matter and might not have used the term "somewhat". However, that did not prove to be the case. Perhaps that is a legitimate criticism.

With regard to the third observation, the IMF does not attempt to provide views on all aspects of the economy. It is not within the organisation's mandate to do so. However, there is no shortage of institutions, both domestically and externally, that will address issues of equality, poverty, the inability of people to buy homes and so on. It is not that the people who work for the IMF, as individuals, do not view this as a bad situation, it is because it is just not part of the organisation's mandate to address specific issues of inequality and difficulties relating to access.

In the book on the late Brian Lenihan, Dr. Donovan referred to Professor Honohan. If Timothy Geithner had not objected to the burning of bondholders, would Europe have proceeded to burn them and would this have been of benefit to Ireland?

That calls for speculation.

I was quoting directly from the book.

Dr. Donal Donovan

We know the ECB was strongly opposed and it would remain opposed. Let us suppose Mr. Geithner had not intervened. If the IMF had come strongly to the view that the burning of some bondholders would have been desirable and necessary - I have no sense what the EU Commission thought about this issue at the time - something might well have happened. However, I return to what I said earlier. The importance of this issue can be exaggerated in numerical terms. We seem to be talking about the potential for burning bondholders and thereby saving approximately €6 billion for the Irish taxpayer. That is in no way a trivial amount but it is not €64 billion.

The report which Dr. Donovan was involved in compiling references Professor Honohan. The latter appeared before the inquiry recently and expressed the view that the possibility of allowing Anglo to fail should have been considered. Is Dr. Donovan of the view that the Financial Regulator and the authorities should have been aware that Anglo was insolvent on the night the guarantee was introduced?

Sorry, but that is a leading question.

In Dr. Donovan's view - knowing all the facts - would it have been reasonable for the authorities to have been aware that Anglo was insolvent on the night the guarantee was introduced?

Let me forewarn Dr. Donovan that he can answer questions that are within his competence, knowledge and his sphere of expertise on which he can speak authoritatively. I am interested in evidence not opinions. We can have a cup of coffee later to discuss opinions.

Dr. Donovan indicated that he felt Anglo Irish Bank should not have been allowed to fail and he referenced the report of Professor Honohan and his team, of which he was a member. Professor Honohan has subsequently come before this committee and has stated that in his view, there should have been strong consideration of allowing Anglo Irish Bank to fail.

If the Deputy is going to quote Professor Honohan -----

He said his view was -----

Will Deputy O'Donnell give me a moment? If members are to cite what witnesses have said, I would advise them to have the transcript in front of them.

Let me put it another way, Professor Honohan said allowing Anglo Irish Bank to fail should have been considered in the context of discussions with Europe and it would have effectively been delayed for a week, in terms of ELF funding being provided to Anglo Irish Bank. My question is whether Dr. Donovan believes on the night of the guarantee it would have been reasonable that the authorities should have been aware that Anglo Irish Bank was insolvent at that time.

That is the same question.

Dr. Donal Donovan

There are two distinct scenarios and I believe Professor Honohan has clarified this.

He has and let me put on record that Professor Honohan has corresponded with the committee on the subject of his earlier engagement with us, where he added further information to his presentation. That is why in this regard I am very explicit and clear with regard to members drawing from witnesses' contributions.

I ask Dr. Donovan to be very measured.

Dr. Donal Donovan

If I may, using that framework, outline the scenarios. First, if they had known that Anglo Irish Bank was insolvent, then the question would have been what to do. I understand there is a view that it should have been liquidated overnight. That would have, however, led to the kinds of costs associated with the closure of Anglo Irish Bank that the Honohan report describes at some length. Whether those costs which he describes very vividly and to my knowledge he has not changed his view, would have been greater than the costs up to €64 billion or a figure ranging from €40 billion or some other number, who knows.

The second scenario is completely different and distinct and is the one that Anglo Irish Bank had, a liquidity problem. Should they have gone for emergency liquidity assistance, ELA, and hoped that something would work out at the end of the week? This is discussed quite a bit in our book. One never knows what would have happened. Would a solution have been found? In my view for what it is worth, I do not see a strong reason to believe that the European position on the Thursday before 29 September would have been radically different one week later. Others may disagree. What would have changed? We had no new information on the bank's situation. We were still thinking that it was illiquid but not insolvent. We never found that out until six months later. What would have happened in a week for the Europeans to say, "Okay, on second thoughts go ahead and liquidate Anglo Irish Bank and do something different". That is where I have a problem with the idea that waiting a week would have changed matters.

We are moving into the realms of speculation. Dr. Donovan was not directly involved in those circumstances?

Dr. Donal Donovan

No.

On that basis I will bring his contribution to a conclusion. I thank Dr. Donovan for his participation in today's meeting. It has been very informative and valuable and has added to our understanding of the factors leading to the banking crisis. We have exceeded the time Dr. Donovan had planned to be before the committee and I acknowledge that his prior engagements may now be disrupted. As another meeting will take place in this room shortly, I propose we adjourn until tomorrow.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.45 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 25 February 2015.
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