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Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis debate -
Thursday, 12 Mar 2015

Context Phase

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I welcome everyone to the 15th public hearing of the Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis. In our sessions today we will focus on the theme of relationships between State authorities, political parties, elected representatives, supervisory authorities, banking institutions and the property sector. Later this morning we will hear from the former The Irish Times journalist Mr. Frank McDonald, but in our first session we will hear from Dr. Elaine Byrne, a consultant for the European Commission on corruption and governance. She is also a journalist with The Sunday Business Post. During her career she has worked as a governance consultant for the United Nations, the World Bank and Transparency International. She has also held academic appointments at Trinity College Dublin and the University of New South Wales. She has published widely on Irish politics and is the author of Political Corruption in Ireland, 1922-2010: A Crooked Harp. She was nominated for three national media awards for investigative journalism for her work on allegations of political impropriety. She is very welcome.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If they are directed by the Chairman to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. As informed previously, the committee is asking witnesses to refrain from discussing named individuals in this phase of the inquiry. Members are reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Dr. Byrne to make her opening statment.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I thank the Chairman for the invitation. It is strange being on the other side of the fence, having reported on you. In the invitation to appear before the joint committee I was asked to address four areas, namely, a narrative on how the property and banking sectors had interacted with government, elected representatives and the State during the period prior to the banking crisis in Ireland; a narrative on the nature of the relationship between the property sector, banking, government, elected representatives and the State; a narrative on what, if any, controls or structures were in place to regulate any such relationship; and whether being a small country was a factor in terms of any such relationship. What follows is as a consequence of the extensive research I have done on foot of my book, my work as a consultant and a journalist and a presentation of facts. I will begin to answer these four very broad questions by first looking at the historical context and the culture of deference which I argue was firmly established before the boom. I will address these issues, primarily by focusing on political donations.

At the heart of the four corruption tribunals in Ireland in the past three decades - the beef tribunal, also known as the Hamilton inquiry; the McCracken tribunal; the Moriarty tribunal and the Mahon tribunal - were serious concerns about how political action was funded. These tribunals, in particular the McCracken and Moriarty tribunals, exposed a deferential culture by regulatory authorities towards the banking sector during the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. They also identified a deferential culture by banks towards politics and vice versa. An absence of political will to enforce regulatory compliance was a recurring theme within the tribunals.

I will give two very brief examples of this. Central Bank inspectors examined the Guinness and Mahon bank loan book in 1976 and 1978. The inspectors expressed concern that "Guinness & Mahon was facilitating a tax avoidance scheme [which] was tantamount to facilitating tax evasion". The Central Bank inspectors discovered that one of its own directors had a loan of £416,000 which was secured by a £230,00 offshore deposit in the Cayman Islands. The response by the Central Bank was to trust a promise made by the then Guinness and Mahon chief executive who promised that the bank would wind down its loan business to Irish residents which was backed by offshore deposits. This promise was not kept.

Twenty years later, the McCracken tribunal discovered the consequence of this deference. Ansbacher was the largest incidence of tax evasion in the history of the State. Revenue subsequently yielded over €112 million in unpaid taxes and penalties from 200 Ansbacher accounts. This tax evasion was enabled by non-action by the Central Bank, Revenue Commissioners, company law regulators and prosecuting authorities. For instance, although the Finance Act 1986 empowered Revenue to inspect non-residence declarations held by financial institutions, it did not do so.

The second example of deference I will give is that of Charles J. Haughey's indebtedness to Allied Irish Bank which spiralled from £188,000 to £1.1. million in a four year period between 1975 and 1979. The Moriarty tribunal noted that AIB "exhibited a marked deference in its attitude" towards the leader of Fianna Fáil. On his election as Taoiseach in December 1979, Mr. Haughey's personal overdraft was 77 times his £14,717 gross annual salary. Mr. Haughey's financial adviser, who also happened to be the de facto chief executive of Guinness and Mahon bank, negotiated a £393,000 write-down of the Taoiseach's debts. The tribunal described this "somewhat unorthodox" bank discount which amounted to one third of Mr. Haughey's overall arrears, as conferring "a substantial benefit on Mr. Haughey in circumstances referrable to his political office and as an indirect payment". Moreover, the Moriarty tribunal established that Mr. Haughey received at least £9.1 million in donations between 1979 and 1996. The McCracken and Moriarty tribunals revealed a distinctive overlap between prominent financial donors of Mr. Haughey and individuals within the banking and property sectors. The journalist Colm Keena, in particular, has written and investigated a lot of this overlap.

The purpose of these two brief lessons from the tribunals is to illustrate that a culture of deference between State authorities, political parties, elected representatives, supervisory authorities, banking institutions and the property sector, was already well established by the 1990s. This culture of deference operated in a context where political parties and individual politicians were particularly financially vulnerable.

The committee asked me to explain the narrative of the relationship between these different entities and I will do so by first looking at disclosed political donations to political individuals and political parties in the three elections of 1997, 2002 and 2007. What follows is a short explanation of legislation on political funding as a means of describing the nature of the relationship between politics and the property and banking sectors. The purpose of this is to demonstrate that it is impossible to present a complete picture of how political parties financed their 1997, 2002 and 2007 election campaigns. Not all donations were legally required to be disclosed. None the less, the disclosed donations infer a pattern as illustrated in the three graphs in the appendix to this submission.

The Electoral Act 1997 was enacted in response to controversy arising from unorthodox political donations which came to public attention during the course of the beef tribunal. It emerged that some political individuals and political parties were reliant on donations from the beef industry in the late 1980s and early 1990s. This relationship between the beef industry and politics created the public perception that a quid pro quo existed, in other words, that political donations facilitated policy decisions which benefited the beef sector.

The 1997 Act established new rules for the disclosure of political donations. For the first time in the history of the Irish State, political donations over a certain limit were required to be disclosed. The threshold for disclosure of donations to political individuals, including candidates in Dáil, Seanad, European and presidential elections, was €634.87. The threshold for disclosure of donations to political parties was €5,078.95. There was no limit as to how much could be donated.

The Electoral (Amendment) Act 2001, maintained the disclosure limits under the 1997 Act but introduced a limit as to how much could be donated. The threshold for disclosure of donations to political individuals remained at €634, however, donations by the same donor must not exceed €2,539 in any given year. The threshold for disclosure of donations to political parties remained at €5,078. However, donations by the same donor must not now exceed €6,349 in any given year. Also of significance was the banning of foreign donations in circumstances where the donor was not an Irish citizen.

The Electoral Act 1997 and the Electoral (Amendment) Act 2001, required that political individuals, including candidates, and political parties must submit an annual statement of donations and election expenditure to the Standards in Public Office Commission. I compiled information from the archives of the Standards in Public Office Commission for a ten-year period in order to construct the graphs in the appendix relating to political party funding. Where I was unsure about particular figures I took the conservative approach and when in doubt I did not include them.

I will now deal with disclosed donations to political individuals. Figure No. 1 in the appendix represents all disclosed donations to political individuals between 1997 and 2009. The period includes the 1997, 2002 and 2007 general elections. In doing so it must be clearly acknowledged that this figure represents disclosed donations as opposed to undisclosed donations, donations under the €634 threshold. There are a number of observations that can be extrapolated from this data.

First, disclosed donations to political individuals significantly increased in election years. That is not rocket science. Second, Fianna Fáil representatives attracted almost twice as many disclosed donations as all the other parties combined during the 2002 and 2007 general elections. That Fianna Fáil candidates were the beneficiaries of more disclosed donations than candidates from other parties is not surprising because proportionate to other parties, Fianna Fáil traditionally runs more candidates. For instance, of the 466 candidates who ran in the 2002 election, 22% were from Fianna Fáil. None the less, during that election year, Fianna Fáil received two thirds of all funding disclosed which means that candidates from that party were in receipt of seven times more disclosed donations than a non-Fianna Fáil candidate. Third, it is not possible to break down the sources of disclosed donations as is the case for party donations because the donations tend to be from individuals without reference to business addresses. I can deal with this in more detail later if the committee wishes.

Political individuals attracted significantly more disclosed political donations than political parties, notwithstanding the 2001 amended rules which introduced a higher donation limit to political parties of just over €6,000, compared to donations to political individuals at just over €2,500. Disclosed donations to political individuals in 2007 amounted to €855, 995. Excluding subscriptions from the salaries of elected representatives to their parties, disclosed donations to political parties in 2007 amounted to just €43,693. It appears that it is more attractive to donate to political representatives than to political parties.

I will now look at disclosed donations to political parties. Figure No. 2 in the appendix represents all disclosed donations to political parties between 1997 and 2009. A number of observations can be extrapolated from this data. Since the introduction of the Electoral (Amendment) Act 2001, which introduced a limit on the value of donations to be disclosed, a pattern emerged whereby all political parties disclosed under the limit.

For example, the disclosed donations by all political parties in 2001 amounted to €753,523, the year before the 2002 election. In contrast, the disclosed donations by all political parties in 2006 amounted to €17,000, the year before the 2007 election. These figures exclude politicians donating to themselves or their own political parties. There appears to be a deliberate policy by political parties of soliciting donations below the disclosure thresholds. This is perhaps due to the relatively small difference in the maximum donation that can be accepted by a political party, €6,349, and the amount that must be disclosed, €5,078. The Fine Gael Party returned a nil disclosure to the Standards in Public Office Commission from 2001 to 2009 and, in fact, made its first disclosure last year. The Fianna Fáil Party, the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party disclosed zero returns in disclosed donations for 2009, the year all three political parties ran substantial local and European by-election campaigns and a referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon.

It is impossible to present a complete picture of how political parties were financed in this period. Of the €10.1 million spent by political parties and candidates in the 2007 general election which was disclosed to the Standards in Public Office Commission, just €1.3 million of the donations was disclosed, with no information available on the origins of the remaining €8.8 million. That gap allows an unnecessary perception that something unorthodox is happening with political funding, but much of it can be explained by membership fees, annual draws and so forth. The €10.1 million figure does not encompass all of what was spent during the 2007 election. The legislation only requires election expenditure in the period between the dissolution of the Dáil and polling day, usually a period of three to five weeks, to be accounted for. Electioneering prior to this period is not accounted for. Election campaigning in the 2007 election, for instance, was well under way before May 2007. The pre-election statement of intent between Fine Gael and the Labour Party, known as the "Mullingar Accord", was inaugurated in 2004 and accompanied by a billboard campaign.

I will now look at disclosed donations to the Fianna Fáil Party by sector. Figure 3 in the appendix represents all disclosed donations to Fianna Fáil, excluding the donations to political representatives or individuals between 1997 and 2007. They amounted to €1.8 million; 80% of this figure was donated between 1997 and the change of the rules in 2001. Subsequent to the 2001 Act, the maximum donation a party could receive was limited to €6,349. As outlined, this is an incomplete picture of how the Fianna Fáil Party was funded because there are no statutory obligations to disclose donations below the legal threshold of €5,078. Nonetheless the figures do infer trends regarding sources of political donations. The figures are as follows: some 35%, or €635,970, of Fianna Fáil's disclosed donations were from property and construction interests. Fianna Fáil received substantial donations in 1998 for the particular and stated purpose of campaigning in the 1998 Good Friday Agreement referendum. When these are excluded, disclosed donations from property and construction interests amounted to 39%, or €545,818. A list of property companies and developers who donated to the Fianna Fáil Party can be accessed on the Standards Commission's website. All of them are on the public record. Some 20% of the disclosed donations to the Fianna Fáil Party in that period came from business interests and amounted to €367,000; 13% came from individuals, amounting to just over €245,000; 9% came from the hotels and catering sector and amounted to just €160,000; 7% came from the motor sector and amounted to just over €122,000; just over 7% came from the food and drinks sector and amounted to just over €126,000, while 5%, or about, €90,000 came from banks and financial services. This figure does not include, however, donations by individuals who were donating in a personal capacity but who were associated with the banking sector. Some 4% or just over €70,000 were from professional services such as solicitors' firms and auctioneers. Also in that period 34% or almost €89,000 of the disclosed donations of the Progressive Democrats of €262,000 came from the property sector.

It appears that the property barons of the 1990s and 2000s had replaced the beef barons of the 1980s. The Opposition did not disclose donations from property interests. The Fine Gael Party disclosed a sum of €197,914 in donations between 1997 and 2000 from a variety of businesses and individuals - 11 donations in all - but it did not disclose donations above the legal threshold from 2001 to 2009. Almost two thirds of the Labour Party's €392,000 in disclosed donations came from the trade union movement. Sinn Féin was in receipt of almost €1.3 million in disclosed donations in this period, much of it from the salaries of elected representatives, North and South, and organisation such as Friends of Sinn Féin, Australia and Friends of Sinn Féin, America. I can give a breakdown of all the figures for all of the parties, if needed.

The committee also asked me to look at controls and structures to regulate such relationships. I will look at them by considering policy. Irish legislation was criticised by the Council of Europe Group of States against Corruption, GRECO, in 2009 for failing to account for "behaviour of those persons who are close to power and who try to obtain advantages from their situation by influencing the decision-maker". Reliance on political donations from a particular sector may facilitate a perception of undue influence by donors over policy-making. This undue but not illegal influence of vested interests over regulation and policy-making arises where elites have access to insider information which they utilise for their private benefit. This informal misuse of power occurs where personal relationships, patronage, lobbying, political favours and political donations unduly influence the decision-making process, even if no laws are broken.

Did donors from the property sector have a vested interest in the formulation of policy? Was the decision-making capacity of political parties eroded by a conflict of interest? Were key political decisions insulated from critical debate because they were executed within a closed and cartelised system that facilitated regulatory capture? What did the Honohan, Regling and Watson, Nyberg and Wright reports have to say about policy in this regard? They offered limited analysis of the policy-making process outside the financial sector. The Honohan report dedicated just six paragraphs to tax incentives aimed at the construction sector. The Regling and Watson report briefly described the problem of policy analysis, design and implementation as "unusually severe", pointing, in particular, to weaknesses in tax policy. The Nyberg report had five paragraphs on what it termed "advice on economic policy". The Governor of the Central Bank, Professor Patrick Honohan, found that "significant factors contributing to the unsustainable structure of spending in the Irish economy were due to the Government's procyclical fiscal policy stance, budgetary measures aimed at boosting the construction sector, and a relaxed approach to the growing reliance on construction-related and other insecure sources of tax revenue". According to the Honohan report, tax reliefs incentive schemes and income tax exemptions for developers and investors included:

multi-storey car parks, student accommodation, buildings used for third-level educational purposes, hotels and holiday camps, holiday cottages, rural and urban renewal, park-and-ride facilities, living over the shop, nursing homes, private hospitals and convalescent facilities, sports injury clinics and childcare facilities.

The Regling and Watson report noted that such tax reliefs "directed to the property sector, often in particular regions of the country ... contributed to a more general misallocation of resources as some of the tax concessions seemed to have been granted on an ad-hoc basis in a not fully transparent way". The incentives were not necessarily bad, as they brought much needed investment to particular areas of the country. The problem was that they went on for too long. As the committee has heard, Mr. Wright has acknowledged in his testimony to the banking inquiry that these policies should have been "grandfathered" or ended earlier.

Why were reliefs extended twice in the period of their implementation?

For example, the Finance Act 1994 and Chapter 1, Part 9, of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 provided for accelerated capital allowances for hotels. While this special provision for hotels was terminated in budget 2003, the Finance Act 2003 included transitional arrangements that allowed for the continued availability of a 100% write-off over seven years provided certain conditions were met. This arrangement was further extended in the Finance Acts 2004 and 2005. The Finance Act 2006 extended the transitional period by introducing a phase-out period. Peter Bacon, who has also come before the committee, complied a report for the Irish Hotels Federation which asserted that "The tax allowance scheme allowed hotels to access both equity and debt finance easier than would be the case otherwise ... the total value of tax allowance related to hotels that have not been open seven years at the end of 2009 will be just over €1.5 billion".

Other incentives of note include the 2000 to 2007 special incentive tax rate for developers. This sought to free up land for development by taxing proceeds from the sale of land at 20% instead of the higher rate of up to 42%. Moreover, Part V of the Planning and Development Act 2000 was amended in 2002 to allow developers to negotiate their way out of providing 20% social and affordable housing in any development through land swap, payments to local authority or the building of equivalent social and affordable housing elsewhere. It would be helpful if the committee considered the following: a list of the tax reliefs and incentives granted by the Government to developers and investors between 1997 and 2007; the cost of these reliefs and incentives; the reason tax incentives were extended beyond their natural life spans; whether the structure of local government funding facilitated a financial dependency on development levies; whether reliance on such levies, worth nearly €600 million in 2005 and €700 million in 2006, influenced erroneous planning decisions; and the number of politicians, or their close associates, who received interest-free loans or mortgages on favourable terms or who received loans outside of normal lending practices.

The committee also asked me to look at suggested reforms and controls to moderate these kinds of relationships and I now turn to these. I have presented eight reforms to regulate such relationships. First, is independent audit of the capacity and operational ability of oversight agencies, including the Criminal Assets Bureau, the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement, the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation, the Central Bank, the Revenue Commissioners, the Competition Authority and other agencies charged with the prevention, detection, investigation and prosecution of white collar crime. This approach was taken in the UK after its financial crisis. In 2008, the UK's Attorney General commissioned the De Grazia review which appraised the Serious Fraud Office, SFO, in regard to two US agencies, which were the US Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York and the Manhattan District Attorney's Office. These were both well established bodies prosecuting serious and complex economic crime. The review's 34 recommendations focused on operations, capacity, governance and external relationships.

Second, I recommend introducing monetary awards for whistleblowers. This approach was taken in the USA following the economic crisis. The Dodd Frank Act 2010 established the Office of the Whistleblower. The Act expanded powers first introduced under the Sarbanes-Oxley Act 2002. The Securities and Exchange Commission is now authorised by the US Congress to provide monetary awards ranging between 10% and 30% of the money collected in cases where high quality original whistleblower information leads to a commission enforcement action of over $1 million in sanctions.

My third recommendation is the introduction of a register of liabilities. Australia, Finland, New Zealand, Poland, Spain and Canada require politicians to publicly disclose any debts they may have. Ireland only has a register of assets.

Fourth, I note that the Standards in Public Office Commission's annual report 2013 contains 20 recommendations on reforming our ethics and electoral legislation. I submitted an additional six recommendations on the draft guidelines on party finance in my submission to the commission in 2013.

Fifth, I recommend that political parties be required to publish accounts under the guidelines on party finance in advance of the 2016 general election. The delay by the Government in introducing these guidelines means that parties are not obliged to publish accounts until mid-2016 which may, in effect, be after the 2016 general election.

Sixth, I recommend the establishment of an independent commission to decide how political activity in Ireland is funded. The principle that politicians should not regulate themselves is well established. For example, political actors do not decide constituency boundaries. Ireland's rules on political funding disproportionately favour incumbents and political parties.

My seventh recommendation relates to lobbying and seeks registration not only of lobbyists but of why decisions have been made. I recommend the introduction of a web-based centralised information platform to co-ordinate consultations with individuals, stakeholders and lobby groups. This would serve to report on input received on policy and detail how decisions were made. It would improve the openness and transparency of engagement in policy-making by all actors. Stakeholder and lobbying interaction is recorded by health department in Canada within what they call the Consultation and Stakeholder Information Management System, or CMIMS.

My eighth recommendation is to stop blaming our small population or geographical size for bad governance. The committee asked me to examine whether being a small country is a factor in terms of problematic relationships. The population size of a country is not a determining factor in measuring governance effectiveness. Academic research shows that poor governance is correlated with the quality of institutions, in respect of which Niamh Hardiman went into considerable detail yesterday, lower levels of investment and growth, inequality, education, democratisation, colonial heritage, religion and an absence of legislative controls. In Ireland's case, substantial levels of regulation combined with a high degree of State ownership have facilitated considerable political discretion. These conditions have been at the heart of the majority of governance scandals since the foundation of the State.

In the appendix to my written submission, I include a table ranking the governance scores of 17 selected countries for 2008. That year was chosen as the year of Ireland's financial crisis. Transparency International's Corruption Perception Index, CPI, is a compilation of corruption scores which ranks countries from least corrupt to most corrupt while the World Bank measures good governance using six different indicators, of which four are presented in the appendix. Although Transparency International and the World Bank use different aggregation methods, they are highly correlated. The population sizes of the 17 countries is also set out in the table. While this is a crude exercise, it demonstrates that countries with smaller and larger populations rank both higher and lower than Ireland in the good governance stakes. Indeed, the table suggests that countries with smaller populations tend to have better governance than countries with larger populations. To invoke being a small country is to use a bogeyman argument. It is a lazy explanation for poor governance. Many small countries escaped the economic collapse unscathed while many large ones did not.

I thank Dr. Byrne for her opening statement. Before I bring in the lead questioners, I have one question. Does the level of political donations received by political parties determine the outcome of elections?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

In anticipation of that question and while putting together my submission, I was watching "House of Cards".

Unfortunately, we do not have that luxury as we are here most of the time. Therefore, I ask Dr. Byrne to drive on with the answer.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Frank Underwood said, "Power is more important than money but when it comes to elections, money gives power, well, a run for its money". In its recent publication on the importance of political donations within a democracy which was published last month, the International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance in Sweden, where I have done some consultancy work, said that democracy was ultimately about popular control over decision making and should, in theory, allow for a system in which citizens and electoral candidates participate on politics on fair and equal terms.

In examining the Irish experience, does Dr. Byrne see a correlation between the funding coming into political parties and their representatives and the outcome of elections during cycles of funding and election cycles themselves?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Research by Professor Michael Marsh in Trinity College, Dublin, has shown that there is a correlation.

The more money a political party may have, the more advantageous that is within an election.

Have the adjustments on how funding is now made to political parties, and the caps and limits that have been put in place, had a measurable impact on how election outcomes are now arrived at?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

The new caps, under the legislation, came in last year so we have yet to see the result of it.

We had local elections last year.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Yes but we have not had the Standards in Public Office Commission's annual report which goes through those donations.

I thank Dr. Byrne. I call Senator Michael D'Arcy and he has 15 minutes.

Dr. Byrne is very welcome. I wish to refer to her book entitled Political Corruption in Ireland 1922-2010, A Crooked Harp? Why did she bring the period for her book to an end at 2010?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

That was when I finished writing it and it also coincided with the entry into Ireland of the troika. For me, it was a natural beginning and end because it was from the foundation and establishment of political independence to the loss of economic independence in 2010.

Her book follows on from where her submission concluded. On page 1 of the introduction her book reads, "Although the Irish public mind is perhaps convinced that corruption is a prevailing feature of political life, there has been almost no empirical investigation into the veracity of this assumption". What is Dr. Byrne's opinion about the "prevailing feature of political life" that the public is convinced is corrupt?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I think there is a perception in Ireland that Ireland is very corrupt. Having lived in Australia, Austria and the Czech Republic and travelled extensively, I think it is a perception that is often misplaced. I remember, when I was teaching in Trinity College, I asked my students to rank between 1 and 166, according to the transparency perception index, where they thought Ireland was and most people said Ireland was 150 or 140. I would reply, "So you are saying that Ireland is more corrupt than all of the African countries and countries that have had dictatorships and so forth". There is a misperception in Ireland about how corrupt we are. In comparative terms, which one can see in the table I have given at the end of my submission, Ireland ranks about the same as the UK, Germany and Belgium.

Dr. Byrne also stated "that a culture of deference" between Government elected representatives and State authorities with banks and the property sector was well established by the 1990s. This culture of deference "operated where political parties and individual politicians were especially financially vulnerable". Can that statement not be made about every country in the world that has an open democracy?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Yes, but in Ireland's case we were particularly financially vulnerable. At the close of the 1992 general election, for instance, Fianna Fáil was in debt to the tune of €3.5 million and Fine Gael owed more than €1 million. That perhaps was, in part, due to the turbulence of elections and campaigning in the 1980s. What I was trying to set there is the context, that by the time the boom came about political parties and political individuals were very financially vulnerable. In my book I detailed particular individuals and their struggles to finance their elections. Even if it was a small donation it would have meant quite a lot to those individuals and political parties, which may then have presented a more opportune example or opportunity for individuals and parties to be influenced.

Yesterday Professor Farrell attended here. He quoted the UK, as a jurisdiction, and that our system is based on theirs, plus they were prepared to evolve much faster than ours. For example, the UK is moving towards fixed term elections. Does Dr. Byrne think that an unwillingness to evolve our systems, structures, not just the body politic, but also the public via referenda is unhelpful towards-----

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Does the Senator mean about fixed term elections?

I gave that as an example. I refer to the fact that we are slow and hesitant to take an opportunity to evolve the political structure.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I would leave that to Professor Farrell as he has more expertise in this area than I would.

That is okay. I wish to refer to Dr. Byrne's book again. In Chapter 4 she discussed, in the context of planning controls, how demographic and market changes impacted on demand within the economy and the effectiveness of planning legislation which was in place at that time. Can she expand on that, please?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Is that on page 70?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

In that chapter-----

Yes, the 1963 Planning Act.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I went through a series of concerns that happened throughout that period. There was the Tully tribunal in 1975 that lasted two hours - the shortest tribunal in the history of the State. There was also serious allegations on the front page of the Sunday Independent by an outstanding investigative journalist called Joe MacAnthony. A lot of what we subsequently were to find out was already in the public domain in the 1970s.

In my chapter I argued that the national coalition - the Fine Gael-Labour coalition - and some of their actions, ensured that these things were not fully investigated. I remember interviewing the former Attorney General and High Court judge, Declan Costello, extensively about this. In the archives I found a memorandum he had sent to the Government. Around that time, in the UK, they were looking at introducing conflict of interest legislation. Mr. Costello brought this to Cabinet, he sat at Cabinet at that time. The UK introduced much of the legislation which subsequently came into being in the mid-1990s, particularly around conflict of interest but there was a reluctance to introduce it here, and Mr. Costello was very frustrated at that. Twenty or 30 years later he was still noticeably frustrated that the Government, despite very obvious scandals happening, chose not to introduce legislation which would have regulated some of this behaviour.

I think the point the Senator has made is that in the 1970s something happened in Ireland that had not happened before, and that was to do with population changes. There were more people living in urban Ireland, for the first time, than there was in rural Ireland and one had this pressure on cities that one did not have before. More people wanted to move into cities, more people wanted planning permission and the existing system was not structured for that demand. A way of getting around that demand and delays in getting planning permission and facilities was that people tended to give money for planning permission or for certain facilities.

On page 5 of today's submission, Dr. Byrne states, "[M]uch miisuse of power occurs where personal relationships, patronage, lobbying, political favours and political donations unduly influence the decision-making process even if no laws are broken". Can she expand upon the extent to which there is corruption if a law is not broken?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

This is the distinction between legal corruption and moral corruption where, even though no laws may be broken, morally there may be outrage at particular types of behaviour. Often one finds that the law is catching up to address different concerns that arise. We must remember that the first legislation directly on corruption in Ireland was introduced in 1995. With the existence of the Irish State before that period, our legislation on corruption and ethics was derived from British statutes, from 1889, 1908 and 1916. One had this kind of gap where there was no legislation whatsoever to moderate regulated relationships between different entities.

Arguably, one could say there was a lot of behaviour in politics in the 1980s and 1990s which, if it were to happen now, would certainly come under corruption legislation. It was not corrupt because there was no legislation which stated it was corrupt, but just because there was no legislation which stated it was corrupt does not mean that it was not corrupt.

Did Dr. Byrne's research on corruption show that the longer a party was in government the more corrupt it became, or did it show the contrary?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

When I was doing my thesis at the University of Limerick, much to the frustration of my supervisor, I refused to name particular political parties in it. I did not find relevant what the name of a political party was because it was about proximity to power. There has been a lot of research in other countries where that happens. I do not believe a particular political party and its membership somehow come from a different genetic pool from other political parties and their memberships. If political party X had been in power for a long period of time, rather than political party Y, I am not so sure the behaviour would have been that different. Often when people talk about corruption, it is very easy to do it. One may talk about individuals and corruption is very sexy; it is very easy to politicise it. What I try to do, however, is to rise above its politicisation. I do not believe it is about a particular political party or particular political individuals. I believe it is about how long these political parties or political individuals have been in power.

Therefore, it is about the individual, not the party.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

No, it is about the proximity to power and how long a particular party or an individual has been in power. It goes back to the original definition of corruption which I think had to do with a bishop in England: "absolute power corrupts, and power corrupts absolutely".

Let me ask Dr. Byrne about the existing funding for local government. Does she believe the existing funding structure has contributed to potential corruption?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I am not an expert on local government and have limited experience of it. For two or three years I sat on the strategic policy committee of Dublin City Council. From that experience I found that city councillors of all hues and political backgrounds were extraordinarily committed to local government and extraordinarily committed to their city. Also, there was incredible frustration at the limit to what they could do in local government because of funding issues. Local government in Ireland has very weak financial autonomy compared to that in other EU countries. There is a large reliance on central government funding. In Dublin City Council's case, for a decade there were outstanding fees from the Government in property taxes on State buildings around the city. Therefore, I think this weak financial base of local government in the 1990s and the influx of money in property development levies gave local government a large dependence on property levies. I defer again, however, to people who are experts on local government.

Dr. Byrne mentioned tax incentives in her submission. She said the criticism of tax incentives was that they continued for too long. Am I correct in saying this?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Yes.

Were there tax incentives in other countries that Dr. Byrne analysed? If so, did they end when they were supposed to end?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I have not analysed tax incentives provided in other countries. The reason I asked that series of questions around tax incentives and policy issues was we did not know the answer to these questions. Yesterday Professor Niamh Hardiman touched on some of the issues around the weakness of evidence-based policy making in Ireland.

I thank Dr. Elaine Byrne for her presentation. On page 238 of the book she quotes Eurobarometer research that the level of trust in government in Ireland fell from 46% to 10% between June 2008 and June 2009. Is that connected with the work of this committee? Was it a critical factor? It is certainly contemporaneous with one of the events at which we are looking.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Yes. There were similar falls in the level of trust in other countries like Spain and Greece where they had a deep financial collapse. I will point again to the mismatch between the perception in Ireland of corruption and how we compared to other countries. In a survey last year for the European Commission European consultants found that 81% of Irish people believed corruption was widespread. Some 24% believe the Government's efforts to combat corruption are effective. I guess this comes back to the analogy I often use about shoes and shoelaces. In many ways, Ireland has some of the best legislation in the world on governance and ethics. America and the United Kingdom would give their right arm for the limits on political donations we have and Exchequer funding for political parties. The US President's recent appointee as ambassador to Ireland is a political appointment, as all appointees are. Such a concept would be alien to the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. There are lots of things where Ireland stands head and shoulders above other countries when it comes to the legislative framework we have in place. I argue that new shoes are no good unless one has tied the shoelaces. Despite having very good shoes, or good legislation, what happens is that we trip over the small things. We trip over implementation, perception and culture, which is quite frustrating.

In the aftermath of what happened on 29 September 2008, however, there was a massive decline in the level of trust from 46% the previous June to 10% the following June.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Yes, there was.

What is the number now? Has it been updated?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I have not seen what the latest number is, but I will quote the recent figures from the European Commission reports in which I was involved last year. Some 81% of Irish people believe corruption is widespread.

When Dr. Byrne was replying to my colleague, Senator Michael D'Arcy, about her interview with Mr. Declan Costello, on page 86 of the book, she found that he had proposed measures in 1974 which were strikingly similar to the post-1995 Irish corruption legislation. For the benefit of the committee and people watching, what were these measures?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I have not looked at it since I wrote it. In the archives I found a memorandum for the Government, which was about six or seven pages long. I remember sending it to him and we met afterwards. The tone of the language in that memorandum was so strong and exhibited very deep anger and frustration at the behaviour of politics and political parties in Ireland in the early to mid-1970s and proposals to address it. At the time there was the Poulson affair in the United Kingdom where similar issues had arisen. I will give one reform that he suggested, apart from introducing conflict of interest legislation under which councillors or TDs would have to declare, for instance, that not only were they politicians but that they were also directors of property companies or were being paid as consultants by property companies. He was critical of the Local Government Act 1946 which had repealed the 1898 order obliging local councillors to declare conflicts of interest. He drew attention to the Housing Act 1966 which had yet to be applied and the difficulties in providing for an offence under the outdated Public Bodies Corrupt Practices Act 1889.

He noted that no legislation whatsoever dealing directly with corruption and ethics had been introduced in Ireland since the British statutes.

On page 7 of Dr. Byrne's presentation today, she refers to the payments for whistleblowers under the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act 2010 in the US. Is it up and running? How does it work?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Yes, it is. To the Irish mind, this could be very controversial. There have been a number of cases in the last year or two where whistleblowers working within banks have received reward payments of several million dollars and given information about fraudulent practices that had been occurring within their institutions. I have written several newspaper articles detailing the whistleblowers involved, the fines that have been imposed as a consequence of their information and the money that they have received. It has worked very successfully in America.

Dr. Byrne quotes in her book the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, when he was talking about the professions. This was a matter pertaining to the sugar company. The Minister said in the Dáil, "I know it is a widely held view among the professions in this country that dog does not eat dog. I believe, however, that the taxpayer who paid £1.1 million for this report was at least entitled to one bite". The tone certainly reminds us of the Minister. Are professions not being accountable in Ireland a major issue to which he was drawing attention? Are they ever called to account? Is that part of our non-accountable society?

Will Dr. Byrne comment upon that?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Broadly. I think, until the mid-1990s, politics in Ireland and political behaviour were self-regulated. In the book, I go through different instances where the suggestion of regulating political behaviour was seen as not trusting politicians and how dare someone suggest such things. In particular, Ms Eithne FitzGerald, when she was Minister of State with responsibility for labour affairs in the early 1990s, received incredible abuse for suggesting that politicians needed to have conflicts of interest and so forth. The suggestion that to do so would be abhorrent. We had very much a self-regulating culture in Ireland, whether it was in politics or the church or professions. Each of the professions has its own organisation that self-regulates behaviour. As we have seen through the crash, a lot of things were dealt with in-house and probably did not receive the appropriate legal attention that they should have.

Dr. Byrne cites on page 125 a senior civil servant congratulating a subordinate for confusing a Deputy who had asked a parliamentary question and was subsequently referenced in the tribunal. If the questions that were asked in the Dáil were answered in the way they are answered here, there would be no need for this inquiry. Does that indicate a culture of dishonesty in the permanent government?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I think this is in relation to the beef tribunal. This was where, over many years, different Deputies were asking very pertinent and direct questions about issues pertaining to the export of beef to Iraq. At the tribunal, when that particular politician - was it Ray Burke? - was up before it, the response was, "They never asked the right questions, therefore, I never gave them the right answers". It exposed - this is again going back to what Professor David Farrell would have referred to yesterday - the weakness of the Dáil in respect of getting answers from the Government of the day.

When Dr. Byrne was replying to Senator D'Arcy, she referred to the tax breaks and a concern about those and the way the Finance Bill appeared each year. How would she recommend that we deal with tax breaks?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I think that goes back to the recommendation I have with regard to focusing on lobbying. As to the current lobbying legislation, its emphasis is on registering who the lobbyists are, but not necessarily on why Ministers have made particular decisions. In Canada, this works quite well. In its legislation, when amendments have been made, one will see it. A friend who works at a senior level in the Canadian Government explained this process to me. Every Friday, it will go up on the website of the particular Department - the different legislation, the reasons for the different amendments, links to who gave proposals and all of that. It is a very clear, line-by-line explanation for why Ministers and decision makers came to make particular decisions on legislation.

Would those Canadian parliamentarians have an estimate of the purported costs and benefits? That is one of our problems. We do not know what the cost of a tax break might turn out to be.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Yes. The 2008 OECD report on public service in Ireland focused a lot on this question and noted the absence in Ireland of a tradition of what would be known as regulatory impact analysis. Some Departments now, particularly the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, are very much focusing on this but where one looks at what the unintended consequences of this legislation will be, how much will this particular decision cost and how will it impact other legislation, it is not just about introducing something at will, but looking at the potential effect of that legislation down along the line. That is a tradition that, perhaps, we could use more effectively here.

We rely a lot, as Dr. Byrne knows from the Constitution, on the Comptroller and Auditor General to help in these matters. Would Dr. Byrne strengthen the powers of the Comptroller and Auditor General in any way to deal with the issues she has been raising with us this morning?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

When I was doing consultancy work with Transparency International, we published a national integrity report in 2009. That would have involved in 2008 a series of round tables with different actors, including people from the Comptroller and Auditor General's office. From what we gathered, the effectiveness of the Committee of Public Accounts is often based on the relationship between the Chair of that committee and the Comptroller and Auditor General as to what to focus on and what not to. So, there is very much an informal aspect to it.

I think a lot of agencies, whether it is the Comptroller and Auditor General, the Criminal Assets Bureau, the Competition Authority or whatever it may be, are very reluctant to say publicly they need more resources. If one goes through the cuts that have been made to different agencies that have responsibility for oversight in the past four or five years, some of the cuts have been incredible - 20% or 25% - at a time when their workload has increased. It seems a very counterproductive effort.

Dr. Byrne mentions on page 7 the register of liabilities. It seems plausible that a politician who is in debt will be more susceptible to the kind of conduct Dr. Byrne has been describing. How does that work in the countries she mentioned, for example, Australia, Finland, New Zealand and so on?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

If we had such a register of debt, in theory we would have known in the 1970s and 1980s the extent of the then Taoiseach, Charles Haughey's debts to AIB and so forth. The idea is that one is not just influenced by what shares one may own. A register of liabilities is what assets one has and what shares one has, as the members all know from doing these forms every year, but it also lists what one's financial vulnerabilities are. Maybe there is a conflict because one owes a lot of money to a particular bank or institution. In Canada when I looked at it, in the case of its Minister of Finance, if one goes online, one will see the loans he has. Not the exact amount of loans, but the loans that he has and his exposure to different banks. It is a very open and transparent system.

I will allow Senator Barrett another question if I can.

I thank the Chairman. As to banning beauty contests in favour of auctions, why have they been turned down so many times? Dr. Byrne said it and Professor Colm McCarthy says it, namely, we still want something that is not open and transparent like the auction would be.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Is this about procurement processes and tendering?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I think the Senator is making reference to an article that Colm McCarthy wrote that I quoted from. He wrote it in 2006, I think, about a tradition in Ireland. Dr. Raj Chari in Trinity College Dublin and Professor Gary Murphy have also looked at this.

In Ireland, tendering and procurement processes tend not to be as open and transparent as they should be. Journalists often neglect to read the Comptroller and Auditor General’s reports, which report serious questions of unorthodox behaviour in the way certain tenders and procurement contracts are awarded. The annual procurement budget in Ireland is up to €17 billion. Some members would have more information on it than I. There is not as much scrutiny of how procurement awards are made as there should be.

I will return to the overall thrust of our inquiry, which is the banking crisis. On page 5 of Dr. Byrne’s statement she refers to “undue, but not illegal, influence by vested interests over regulation of policy making”. What role did the influence of vested interests have in the banking crisis?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

This is why I asked the series of questions. I cannot prove that because X gave a donation to Y, policy Z occurred as a result. All I am doing is highlighting the extent of donations and policy making that benefitted those sectors, particularly the property sector. An audit of how much those tax incentives cost the State and the relationships therein would be very helpful. We can insinuate-----

We need empirical evidence.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Yes. These things happen behind closed doors. How can we know why certain decisions were made without access to the information? This goes back to my recommendation on lobbying. We do not just need a register of lobbyists and a means of identifying them. Analysing why decisions were made is the crucial issue.

Dr. Byrne spoke about political reforms. What jurisdictions worldwide have such political reforms in place to make the political system appear transparent and fair to the public?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Along with the reforms I have suggested, I also outlined the countries in which the reforms already exist.

Which of them are operating the most effectively?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Returning to the evidence given by Professor Niamh Hardiman and Professor David Farrell, there is no silver bullet that will solve everything but a combination of reforms. Reforms could include introducing monetary rewards for whistleblowers and a register of Members' liabilities.

Which system for funding Irish political parties would Dr. Byrne advocate?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

The Irish system is very robust. The unintended consequence, as Des O’Malley and others have pointed out, is that it is so heavily regulated that it is very difficult for new political parties or entities to make a mark. I have spoken to general secretaries of the political parties and many of them model their political funding systems on the Gaelic Athletic Association, GAA. Before President Obama was doing it, the political parties here were deriving the majority of their funding from small donations from many members. Most people would be surprised at how much money political parties receive from membership fees, national draws and dinners. The problem is that the public does not see it, and only sees the gaps between the disclosed and undisclosed money. This creates a problem.

It is not just about having good legislation but about political leadership and the culture that exists. Ireland has some of the best legislation in the world around political funding. Approximately six months after a corruption tribunal reported adverse findings regarding a wealthy businessman, the Taoiseach was ringing a bell with him. That sent a message to people. Instead of the Taoiseach standing up, he sat back and rang a bell. While we can have great legislation, when the public sees there are no consequences and that there are different rules and regulations for different people, it creates an unfair perception.

Which system is more robust, our multi-seat system or the UK's single-seat system?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I would put changing the electoral system in the same category as the argument that if Ireland were a bigger country, governance would be better. It is a bogeyman argument. As Professor Farrell said yesterday, no matter what electoral system we had, the culture would shape itself around it to determine the choices of what we want the electoral system to be. I am not convinced that changing the electoral system is the big answer that would solve all Ireland's problems. However, I would defer to people who would have particular expertise on electoral systems.

I welcome Dr. Byrne. What does she believe motivates people who make donations to political parties? I am not talking about members buying a ticket in a national draw or supporting a church gate collection, but non-members of parties who make donations to individuals or parties. Is it to support an individual candidate in whom they believe, to support the policies of the party or to influence the policies of the party?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

It is a combination of those elements. There is a danger that because of the enormous abuses that have happened in the funding of political parties in the past - I mentioned four tribunals that examined this - anybody who donates to a political party is regarded as seeking malign influence. This is wrong and unfair. People support political parties and political individuals because they believe in democracy and democracy does not run on thin air. Money is necessary to fund the salaries of research assistants and so forth. My research shows that when particular sectors have donated in such large amounts to political parties, it suggests they were doing so because they were seeking influence or they felt it was necessary. It is not unusual and occurs in many countries. I referred to beef barons and property barons. In the 1980s, the beef industry was donating to all political parties because beef was the biggest indigenous industry in Ireland at the time.

In the 1990s and 2000s it was property, because property was fuelling the economy. If the same rules and culture were in place now, perhaps it would be multinational and technology companies that would be donating to political parties. Donations often reflect the make-up of the economy. Regarding the donations to Fianna Fáil, the property sector, auctioneers and solicitors were prominent donors, as were banks and the motor industry. They were the industries and sectors of the boom.

To extend that question, Dr. Byrne said earlier that it was all about proximity to power. I believe she was inferring that those in power will invariably get more donations. Does that lead her to a conclusion that those who are making the donations are seeking to influence those who hold the reins of power?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Yes.

More donations are going to those in power, irrespective of who it is.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Yes.

Does that not answer the first question in a way? As those in power get more donations, for at least some of the people making donations the motivation behind making the donation is to influence policy.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Yes, that is one reason people donate.

May I clarify the rankings Dr. Byrne has outlined in Table 1? The first column is Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index, and Ireland has the figure 16. On the scale, one is the least corrupt and 166 is the most corrupt. Is that correct?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Yes.

Is this perception or is it some type of measure of actual corruption? How is that arrived at and what does it measure?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

It measures perception. There are eight different surveys of different groups of population in each country and those are correlated. There are very few convictions in the world for corruption so it would be very difficult to have a rank that measures actual corruption. By its nature corruption is clandestine. There are problems with measuring just perception, and Transparency International and other agencies have acknowledged that. However, there is also a consistency about these rankings over a period of time and correlated to other indices.

Where does Ireland rank in terms of developed countries?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Which rank does the Deputy mean?

There is a figure of 16 for Ireland, and Dr. Byrne has given some comparisons there.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

In 2008, Ireland was the 16th least corrupt, Denmark was the least corrupt and I chose the most corrupt in Europe at that time, which were Bulgaria at 72, Romania at 70 and so forth. Does the Deputy want me to refer to the World Bank?

No, I misinterpreted the numbers. Dr. Byrne says the 16 figure for Ireland means that Ireland ranked 16th-----

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Least.

-----not that Ireland had a figure of 16 on the spectrum of one to 166 in terms of corruption. It is a ranking.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Yes, it is a ranking. Ireland is 16th least corrupt.

Finally, Dr. Byrne asks some quite big questions on page 5 of her statement: "Did donors from the property sector have a vested interest in the formulation of policy?" and "Was the decision-making capacity of political parties eroded by a conflict of interest?" and so forth. She says one cannot reach conclusions without evidence, but she must have formed an opinion. Has she formed an opinion? She is entitled to an opinion, as she has looked at this more than most. What is her opinion or view on those questions?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Just as in the 1980s when certain policy was tailored to the beef industry, I would argue that perhaps in the 1990s particular policy was targeted towards the property sector.

I have a couple of questions relevant to the presentation. Chairman, can I go in another direction a little?

Once you stay within the terms of reference you can go wherever you wish, Senator.

In fairness, much of the good material has already been covered, but Dr. Byrne's presentation was so good I am sure I will find more in it. What is Dr. Byrne's opinion of the various political reforms that have been introduced by the current Government and those that are under consideration by the Constitutional Convention? What impact does she believe these reforms will have on the various relationships between State authorities, parties, elected representatives, supervisory authorities, banks and so forth?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Again, I refer to my shoe and shoelaces argument. In many respects, Ireland has some of the best practice legislation on governance. However, it is about implementation and culture. There have been various scandals in the last year, for example, relating to Seanad appointments which present a picture to the public that there is somehow unorthodox influence over appointments in public life, when often these things are regulated.

On the Constitutional Convention, as somebody who was part of the reason that it happened through the "We the Citizens" initiative, I am very disappointed by it. It was a missed opportunity. Many of the questions that were presented to the Constitutional Convention were not the big questions of the day. There is a tendency in the Government to focus on numbers in its reforms, for example, how many local councils there are, how many Deputies there are, what are the salaries of particular individuals, whether somebody should vote at 18 years old or 16 years old and whether the age to be President is 35 years old or 21 years old. There is a focus on numbers in the reform programme by the coalition, rather than on where power is, which was discussed by the witnesses before the committee yesterday. I think the Constitutional Convention was a missed opportunity.

Is there legislation anywhere in the world that in some way holds political parties to account in terms of the manifesto versus programme for government?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Yes. It is called elections.

Apart from elections.

Thank you very much. That is one of the major findings of this inquiry.

Somebody suggested to me that in Canada, perhaps, there is some way of holding party A to account for promising X but reneging on it or doing the opposite.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I am not aware of that. If there was, I would not be surprised that such reforms exist in Canada. It is often ahead of the curve on many of these matters.

Is it the benchmark?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Yes, it would be on many things.

I will veer slightly away from that. It relates to something we will be considering later, but as Dr. Byrne is here I will put the question to her. From a journalistic perspective, is there a code of conduct in newspapers for how journalists interact with the commercial world?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

There are the NUI guidelines that were introduced as part of the Defamation Act 2009. Yes, there is a code of conduct. There are six principles in it.

It is not related in any way to any law?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

No.

In terms of the relationship between the commercial return from property advertising at a particular period, such as 2004 to 2008, where in some publications the property supplements might have been bigger than the news section, does Dr. Byrne think that in any way influenced the editorial policy of newspapers?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

The committee will have editors and managing directors in and-----

I am asking for Dr. Byrne's view, because of her expertise.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I would defer to the editors when they come here. When I was living in Australia, it was very noticeable that the property correspondents in the newspapers were sponsored by particular property companies, and the financial correspondents in different newspapers and television reports were sponsored by particular banks. There are all sorts of conflicts of interest there. I do not think it was to that extent here.

A final question, Senator.

Would there have ever been an occasion of which Dr. Byrne is aware - it could be her own newspaper the Sunday Business Post or any newspaper - when a commercial entity cancelled or pulled advertising because of a line of editorial?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I have written for The Irish Times and The Sunday Business Post. The editorial inference in The Irish Times is what the Senator is referring to. I have my own opinions about that recent experience.

Again, I would not be privy to those kinds of decisions.

What is Dr. Byrne’s view? She said she has one.

I do not want Dr. Byrne to speculate.

I do not want her to name names.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I will take the Chairman’s advice.

Just to come back to one of Senator MacSharry’s questions on the changes to lobbying and donations legislation which have been made from learning from the crisis? Excluding the cultural and leadership aspects, is it too soon to tell if we have done enough with the law around donations and lobbying?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

It is really. We are still waiting on the Standards in Public Office Commission reports. Again, it is a missed opportunity by the current coalition Government not to have put the guidelines on party finance into place when it could have. It now allows that political parties are not obliged to make their annual reports available for public consumption until, in theory, after the 2016 general election. This allows, facilitates and enables the perception that something unorthodox is happening. Political parties should demonstrate their commitment to transparency, accountability and all those buzzwords by disclosing their accounts.

Does Dr. Byrne believe that the way to combat this perception is to do this?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

If they published the accounts, we could see then.

Should undisclosed private donations from an individual be allowed to continue?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

The donation limits are very small. In the future, it is very likely that the majority of donations will be undisclosed. That said - this is anecdotal because I have not seen recent accounts - most political parties get their money from membership fees of €25 or €30, depending on the party, from dinners and national draws in particular. If the accounts were published, then we could see. Why not?

Does Dr. Byrne think the limits could be lower?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I do not.

Does Dr. Byrne think corporate donations should be completely illegal?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

They are kind of already. If a corporate body donates over €200, it must get permission from its board to do so. In theory, it has made it very difficult to get corporate donations.

Should there be concentration limits on which sectors can donate to political parties?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

When I went through all the different donations to political parties, there was evidence of Mr. X, a property developer, donating, as well as his wife and child donating. How does one regulate that? There are ways around legislation, as there are ways around everything. One of the detailed recommendations I made to the standards commission was that, in theory, X property developer, or whatever sector he or she is from, could make individual donations to each member of a political party. In that way, the individual is not donating to a political party but to individuals and, in that way, raising the amount of money he is giving annually to an individual.

In terms of the relationship between the party and the individual, Dr. Byrne referred to a movement towards more donations to the individual politician rather than the party. Will she comment further on that and what the implications of that might be?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Ireland is no different from other countries. Loyalty to political parties is diminishing while loyalty to political individuals is increasing. The brand of political party is not what it once was. People prefer to donate to a particular individual. It is harder to influence a political party but easier to influence an individual.

Earlier, Dr. Byrne talked about corruption being sexy. It can be on TV. In Ireland, is our threshold for accepting unethical or improper behaviour in politicians higher or lower than in other countries, for example the UK? I will cite the Andrew Mitchell "Plebgate" incident which was a resignation issue there. Do we have a higher or lower threshold when it comes to those kinds of practices and standards in political life?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

There is a sense in Ireland of déjà vu, of here we go again or what would you expect. Much of this is due to the absence of consequences. More than 200 Ansbacher accounts were identified in the biggest incident of tax evasion in the history of the State but not one single prosecution for tax evasion. There have been no meaningful consequences from the tribunals of inquiry. When people see an absence of consequence, then that enables this culture of shrugging shoulders.

Should there be sanctions?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

That is why the very first recommendation I suggested was that there should be an audit of the different agencies tasked with oversight. I know from speaking privately to the different individuals in these agencies that, again, they are people very committed to their role of oversight but are frustrated they do not have the resources to do so or that there is no information-sharing. I have written in articles before how the response to the drugs epidemic, along with the murder of journalists and a policeman in the mid 1990s, saw the establishment of one of the most innovative bodies in the world, one which most countries seek to replicate, the Criminal Assets Bureau. Yet, after the biggest financial crisis in the history of the State, the response is not an overhaul of how fraud and economic crime are investigated, prosecuted and resourced, as was the case in the US or UK. That to me is incredible and very shortsighted.

Following on from that very point, is an explanation that the very most of what was done in building up the bubble, the huge profits made, speculation etc, was all in fact quite legal?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Does the Deputy mean the behaviour of individuals?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Yes, it was. As I mentioned earlier, the first time we had legislation on corruption or ethics in public life was with the introduction of freedom of information and ethics legislation by people like Eithne FitzGerald and Brendan Howlin in 1995 and 1997.

Is the problem the fact we live in a capitalist society that allows private interests, banks and develops to make massive profits on the backs of people buying homes? Is that the source of many of the problems rather than direct corruption?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

We live in a free market. The pursuit of profit is not an illegal or unusual concept. The regulation of behaviour of people and their proximity to power is one that was largely absent.

Let us explore more about why or why not people in power might be partial to substantial business interests.

In her written submission, Dr. Byrne referred to a culture of deference between State authorities, political parties and elected representatives. She stated: “This culture of deference operated in a context where political parties and individual politicians were especially financially vulnerable." She gave the examples of the Guinness Mahon Bank and the Ansbacher affair and the example of the former Taoiseach, Charles Haughey’s indebtedness to Allied Irish Bank and the writing off of substantial debt. Did any other former taoisigh receive favourable treatment from a bank when they were financially vulnerable?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Yes, Garrett FitzGerald. AIB wrote off debts of almost £200,000 in 1993. That followed the collapse of aircraft leasing company GPA, Guinness Peat Aviation, in which he was a shareholder.

His write-off, by contrast with that of Taoiseach Charles Haughey, occurred after he had left politics, six years after he had been Taoiseach and a year after he had retired from backbench politics. That matter, the write-down of Garret FitzGerald's £200,000 debt by AIB, was investigated by the Moriarty tribunal which made the contrast between Garret FitzGerald and Charles J. Haughey. Charles J. Haughey largely kept all of his assets virtually intact, while Garret FitzGerald sold his family home and virtually everything else he owned in a bid to pay off the money he owed.

Nevertheless, a bank advanced very substantial amounts of money to a former leader of the country to gamble on speculative shares. The Government that person led had actually rescued Allied Irish Banks from its significant loss in respect of the Insurance Corporation of Ireland.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Is the Deputy asking me to comment on that?

Yes. Does it or does it not back up the culture of deference between politicians, banks, etc?

I will ask Dr. Byrne to move to the more macro-scale of the point being made, rather than discussing individuals. In fairness to her, we cited a number of individuals this morning, but in terms of the macro-point-----

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Again, I refer back to what I mentioned about the Moriarty tribunal's findings. The culture of deference in Ireland was not just in politics; it was within the Church, the police, as we have seen, hospitals and every sector of Irish society.

Is it not unlikely that the plumber down the road would be treated in a similar way to both former leaders by the banks?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I do not know, but I do know that, in that instance, former Taoiseach Garret FitzGerald was not the only individual who had his debts written off by GPA.

Dr. Byrne stated that from 1997 to 2007 Fianna Fáil received 35% of its income from property and construction interests. The Progressive Democrats received 34%. Dr. Byrne has stated it appears "the property barons of the 1990s and 2000s replaced the beef barons of the 1980s." Was the financing of political parties at the time wider than this? Is Dr. Byrne aware that in the 1990s there was substantial controversy about the financing of the Fine Gael Party relative to the second mobile phone licence and that in 2000, €50,000 each was donated to three major parties, namely, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Progressive Democrats, by a single business donor? Is it the case that instead of having sectionalised interests, we have party-supporting big capitalists in general who underwrite the system, which allows them to make substantial profits on an ongoing basis?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

What is the question?

Rather than narrowing down the issue to property barons replacing the beef barons, it must be realised it is much wider, as I illustrated, in that big, wealthy businesspeople in general-----

The Deputy should ask a question.

-----support the political system because of the gains they can make from policy.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

When I looked at the disclosed donations to Fianna Fáil between 1997 and 2007, I found that over one third had come from property and construction interests. In the 1990s and late 1980s the main money was from the beef sector. That is not to say the party or other political parties did not get money from other sources and other individuals in large amounts also.

I welcome Dr. Byrne. On page 4 or her opening statement she refers to the 2007 general election. I was looking at the members of the inquiry and saw that many of us had been candidates in that election. Dr. Byrne has referred to the fact that only €1.3 million was disclosed of the €10.1 million spent in the entire election campaign. Has she analysed the amounts of funding individuals put into their own election campaigns? I was an unsuccessful candidate and virtually everything I spent on the campaign was money I had saved myself, rather than funding from the party as such.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Yes, that is a really good point. I am aware that right across political parties individuals would have self-financed their campaigns considerably. There are people who are still paying off credit union loans and things like that. This begs the question as to whether the political system is predisposed to attracting people of financial means rather than people who may have less access to money, which prevents people from particular areas of life from entering politics as they may wish to do. The answer to that question is "No" because it is about what is disclosed to the Standards in Public Office Commission. What I examined were the facts on the Standards in Public Office Commission's annual register over ten years. These figures were not put on it. As I have stressed throughout, all this can do is infer patterns. It is not a complete picture of how political parties or political individuals have funded their campaigns, which is why I argue that one perhaps might need to have an electoral commission or an independent commission to look at how politics in general is funded to address the questions the Deputy has just raised.

Following on from that - Dr. Byrne has touched on this in a couple of previous answers - if the funding of the political system in general is to be based on the historical performance of political parties, there is an automatic bias against new entrants and new political parties. Can this be squared? How could a funding system be designed that would allow equal access?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I think it is important for the public to know that money for election purposes is very different from money outside them such that the money political parties receive from the Exchequer cannot be used for campaigning. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of that ever occurring. Political parties, for their referendums and election campaigns, must raise the money from political donations. Political parties do not set the rules for where their constituency boundaries should be. When the national coalition did this in the 1970s, disaster followed and a new system was introduced. On the same principle, why should political parties decide how political parties are funded? It does not make sense. It would allow for new entrants to political life to have an alternative income source.

To change tack, does Dr. Byrne believe the Standards in Public Office Commission is sufficiently empowered to enforce the current ethics legislation? As I was a child politician, I have been a politician for about 16 or 17 years. It is all about voluntary disclosure. Is the commission in a position to investigate thoroughly whether that disclosure is complete?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

No, I do not think so. A balance has to be struck, too. The members are all people in professional life. Does one create a system in which absolutely every part of one's behaviour is regulated? There has to be some trust. The costs of a false declaration are so high in terms of reputation that one really would have to have a very brassy neck to do such a thing. The vigilance of the public is also so high. I urge people to look at the recommendations the Standards in Public Office Commission has made repeatedly in its annual reports. In particular, it sought what it termed an "inquiry officer", who would have the role of making independent inquiries. There is no such role.

I have a brief final question.

Dr. Byrne stated, I think in answer to Deputy Michael McGrath, that a lot of political donations have tended to follow those who have been in power. Has Dr. Byrne conducted any research into the permanent government, effectively, those in the Civil Service, whether they are in local authorities or-----

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Donations to the Civil Service?

Not donations but corruption within the permanent government, effectively. Is there any evidence? We have seen some evidence, I suppose through some of the recent tribunals, of certain activities but has there been any extensive research into that area? That is the question I am trying to ask.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

No there has not, and I think we must also remember that Ireland is different to some countries in that we have a very meritoric, in theory, Civil Service and local government system. The Local Appointments Commission and the Civil Service Commission, both established in the early 1920, ensured that the local government positions and Civil Service positions were not politicised, in contrast to America where, when a new President comes in to office, all the civil servants leave. We do not have that system in Ireland. As I outlined in the book in regard to the beef tribunal in particular, certainly there have been senior civil servants who subsequently went to work for the individuals they had been regulating. Therefore, there was this revolving door culture of gamekeepers turned poachers. It is now in some of the agencies in the State managing some of the property assets as well

I call Deputy Pearse Doherty.

Go raibh maith agat. A quote from Dr. Byrne's book, Political Corruption in Ireland 1922-2010: A Crooked Harp, which has been mentioned before states, "A corrupt Act can be camouflaged by lawful justification". I think Dr. Byrne has referenced events which may have happened in the 1970s and 1980s. Legislation was not in place at the time but if today's legislation was applied then, it would be questionable to say the least. In regard to the subject matter that this inquiry is investigating, primarily the banking collapse but many other areas from 1992 onwards, does Dr. Byrne believe that statement holds for that period of time and the subject matter under this investigation, or that it is not relevant to the issues we are discussing?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Is the Deputy is asking if certain behaviour committed by politicians was lawful but irregular since 1992?

Yes. Was it camouflaged by lawful justification as in the words used by Dr. Byrne?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I would like the answer to some of those questions that I mentioned about why decisions were made about particular tax incentives and the relationship that individuals had, in particular insider positions and their access to those in power. The Department of Justice and Equality is introducing what is known as a trading in influence clause in the corruption legislation. That certainly regulates that kind of behaviour. The answer to that question is "Yes".

I will move to page 12 of Dr. Byrne's book where she introduces a term, which has not been discussed by the inquiry so far, "mediated corruption". Will she explain briefly to the committee the concept of "mediated corruption", who it benefits or who it does not benefit, particularly in regard to the investigations which the committee is taking on?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

This mediated corruption goes back to something that may be undue influence but not necessarily illegal. The trading in influence provision in the new corruption legislation seeks to regulate that. GRECO and various bodies looking at Ireland's governance framework for many years have been criticising the absence in our legislation of trading in influence. With that in mind I will quote the definition of "mediated corruption". I cannot recall the name of the author but it was in relation to the Keating Five. The gain that the politician sees is political, not personal, and it is not illegitimate in itself as in conventional corruption. How the public official views the benefit is improper, not necessarily the benefit itself or the fact that the particular citizen receives the benefit. The connection between the gain and the benefit is improper because it damages the democratic process, not because the public official provides the benefit with a corrupt motive. I guess this goes back to my experience of working in the United Nations anti-corruption unit where my boss used to say, just because a behaviour is not corrupt in the legal sense it might be morally corrupt. If one is advising somebody about their behaviour, one might be within the letter of the law but one might be outside the spirit of the law. For politicians the tide water mark of expectations is very high and often an unfair one. It is not just about what one is legally obliged to do but what is also morally expected of one.

The four minutes for Deputy Doherty-----

There has been a lot of discussion about donations and so on. Mr. Simon Carswell who appeared before the committee yesterday spoke about the access he got to the Galway tent and that he would love to have known the conversations that were taking place. Correct me if I am wrong on my understanding of what Dr. Byrne said about mediated corruption. There was a fixation in the past in different types of tribunals to follow the money but is it the case that we should always be following the money but also following the influence and the power?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Yes, I would agree with that. It is not just about what decisions have been made but why they have been made and the process of that decision making.

I will take a final question, Deputy.

In chapter 5 of Dr. Byrne's book, she mentions golden circles of the 1980s and 1990s. In page 103, she states, "This period was distinct from previous scandals because it marked the possibility of the gravest form of corruption, that of State capture within political decision making". Will Dr. Byrne speak to the committee about State capture and the type of actors involved - we are not discussing individuals - bearing in mind the inquiry's terms of reference starting in 1992?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

That would involve individuals close to power who would have had undue influence. State capture involves individuals determining what that legislation is, that they would have a greater influence over forming that legislation than an ordinary citizen by virtue of their access to decision makers, perhaps because of influence they have, such as the donations that they have given.

I call Senator Susan O'Keeffe.

I thank the Chair and Dr. Byrne. Going back to the €10.1 million figure in the 2007 election, there is no available information for the remaining €8.8 million. Deputy John Paul Phelan mentioned individual donations but where does Dr. Byrne think the €8.8 million came from or does she not know?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I can only speculate. It may be membership fees, national draws and I would assume a large proportion of that would have been donations underneath the legal disclosure limit as well but in the absence of the political parties releasing all of their political statements and financial statements it is difficult to know.

So there is disclosed and undisclosed and we know what they are. Are there also secret payments?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Secret payments?

Yes, either to individuals or to parties.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I do not know.

Has Dr. Byrne ever asked political parties or politicians about that?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Has anybody in this room ever received secret payments?

Has Dr. Byrne spoken to political parties in relation to her own research?

I beg your pardon.

Did she interview and talk to political parties about what they thought and what they were prepared to disclose?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Yes.

What was their response?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

As I have already mentioned, membership fees-----

No, I mean what was their response about disclosure or the lack of it. Were they in favour of further disclosure or are they tight about not wanting to disclose any more?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I will make the analogy with newspapers. The Irish Times recently introduced a paywall, there is speculation that the Irish Independent may do the same and the question as to which newspaper will introduce the paywall first has been going on for a year or two. It is about competitive advantage. Political parties are the same in respect of which party will release all its accounts first and so on. Political parties, in their annual conferences or Ard-Fheiseanna, release information about their accounts. However, the difference is that under the draft guidelines, they will be obliged to release that information on particular headings in order that one can compare how much each political party has received and spent under different categories. One can then make an analysis because if a political party simply releases its accounts and states it got X amount of money from donations, one does not know-----

One does not know the detail.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

----- the breakdown of that. Consequently, after the election we in theory will get the real picture for the first time, unless political parties decide to disclose beforehand.

Over the period at which the joint committee is looking, going back to the 1990s, is Dr. Byrne aware of whether any political party ever had an offshore account for taking in money from anywhere?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

A political party and offshore accounts?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

From memory, I cannot recall. However, I think the Moriarty tribunal would have gone into Ansbacher accounts held by particular individuals and so on.

Indeed. However, there could have been other offshore accounts; not just through the Ansbacher-----

The Senator is speculating. Either one knows or one does not.

No, I was just asking. If Dr. Byrne does not know, that is fine. Would it be fair to state the Ansbacher accounts were secret and offshore? Are those fair words to use to describe Ansbacher-----

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Yes.

----- in minimal words? If one considers the property relationships between developers, bankers and some but not all politicians, some of that also comes through. There is a secrecy and there were a lot of offshore bank accounts. I wonder whether a sort of ghost of Ansbacher was still alive in the 2000s in respect of property development and relationships with bankers. Would Dr. Byrne care to make an observation?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

If I did know that, it would have been on the front page of the newspapers for which I have written. I do not know the answer to that.

One and a half minutes remain to the Senator.

When we talk over this period, I note Dr. Byrne has stated she is not aware of any secret and she asked if members had any.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Nobody answered.

In previous times, in what way was money given to politicians where it was not disclosed or known about? People talk about brown envelopes all the times and is that what one is talking about? What did Dr. Byrne's research or her knowledge show her?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

All this is in the public domain. I refer to particular prominent politicians receiving money on the day of the election, individuals going to their houses and giving them the money, or donations being benefits in kind, being free cars or facilities or whatever it may be. We often get caught up on the brown envelope thing to the effect that a donation or something like that is a quid pro quo. Often, however, it is indirect and is a case of doing someone a favour and thereafter, down along the line, that person will return the favour in an indistinct way. Were one intent on committing corruption, one would no longer be doing it the old-fashioned way. I mean giving money for a favour committed because these things can be traced. What the Moriarty tribunal in particular exposed was benefits in kind through different land transactions that may have arisen. Decisions were made and perhaps down along the line, certain benefits were conferred on individuals. Corruption is not black and white and is not direct. It is indirect and these relationships are very difficult to examine.

Finally, Dr. Byrne recommended that the inquiry examine interest-free loans or mortgages on favourable terms being given to politicians. Is this a practice she believes has happened here? Is she aware of it here or was it just a generalised observation?

As the Senator is over time, that is the last question.

Yes, it is the last question.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

The reason that question is included is because of the excellent "Prime Time Investigates" programme, which looked at those instances to which I referred, in which individuals who were either politicians or close to those in power received interest-free loans or loans on favourable terms. Consequently, these facts are in the public domain.

As I wish to move towards a conclusion I invite Senator Michael D'Arcy to ask one supplementary question and then Senator Barrett to ask one supplementary question.

I thank Dr. Byrne. I started on page 1 and will finish on page 239, which is the final page. In the last sentence of Dr. Byrne's book, she writes, "Ireland’s loss of economic sovereignty in 2010, due to a perception of political failure and the unorthodox influence of vested interests, may yet motivate Irish public life to engage in state building and re-imagine Irish society with an emphasis on the moral duties of citizenship". Has the body politic done enough to see a positive outcome in respect of that statement?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

Not yet and it is a common assumption to state that all politicians and all politics are all corrupt and negative. The book really is a positive story about how the foundation of the State was achieved between two world wars, when most democracies were failing but yet that of Ireland was sustained because in the 1920s, the Government introduced measures that deliberately gave away power. It introduced concepts ahead of its time about meritocracy, some of which I have outlined. This was not something that was particular to Cumann na nGaedheal or Fine Gael. An election poster of Éamon de Valera in 1917 in the East Clare by-election, uses the phrase to vote for a patriot, not a place-hunter. That idea of politics, held by the first-generation across all political backgrounds, was one motivated by the words the Senator has just used, namely, by this moral duty to the country.

In many respects, Ireland has a lot of positives and has very robust legislation. For me, it is immensely frustrating to see such silly mistakes being made, these shoelaces over which we continually trip, about public perception over some of the instances I have mentioned, about ringing bells, appointments to the Seanad or whatever it may be, because it generates such attention that does not reflect the legislative regime that we have. It is about leadership and culture just as much as it is about legislation. Those two things go hand in hand.

I thank Dr. Byrne. As did Senator Michael D'Arcy, I liked Dr. Byrne's last sentence and its call to arms, as well as the identification that the last time we lost a Parliament - I think Henry Grattan is one of her heroes - it was due to the mass corruption used to undermine that Parliament. Can Dr. Byrne relate all these thoughts, as well as her presentation this morning, to what this joint committee should do with regard to banks, their auditors and bank regulators? What principles would she draw from all her work to help this committee in the future?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

When I worked in the United Nations, my boss used to say that the worst thing that could happen to a country is the "three Ps principle" when it comes to ethical legislation, whereby one prints it, one posts it up for everyone to see and one prays to God that it works. In Ireland, we have an implementation deficit, so in terms of principles, it is that we would follow through on the legislation and the eight different recommendations I made. The eighth one is about blaming a small country. In other words, it pertains to the culture we have about blaming things that are outside of our control, rather than focusing on the things that are within our control. One such would be to do an audit of the agencies in this State tasked with oversight, which do great work, and to consider the resources they need as well as to look at the information overlaps. In addition, we perhaps could now, since the collapse of the economy, take the same approach to economic crime that we took to drugs in the mid 1990s.

I will conclude with a few matters to bring proceedings to an end and perhaps invite some comments from Dr. Byrne, by means of giving some additional space to her. She mentioned how political parties are funded and touched on donations coming from abroad.

Does Dr. Byrne have a view on those restrictions? Are they too tight or are they too lenient.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

The law changed in 2001. Before, anybody could donate, and now an Irish citizen can donate. I do not think there is anything wrong with Irish citizens donating to Irish public life. I wrote about this last week in the Sunday Business Post. It is an issue. I assume the Chairman is referring to Sinn Féin which is enormously funded by organisations outside the State who are not necessarily Irish citizens but donate under the category of friends of Sinn Féin Australia - less so now - or friends of Sinn Féin America. You would ask if that creates a disproportionate influence in political life.

I am asking you for a view and you are asking me the question.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I am the journalist. I am usually asking the questions so I answer-----

I am a chairperson and I am used to bouncing them back.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I answer by being rhetorical.

I wonder if it creates a disproportionate influence on Irish political life with such large amounts of money coming into Ireland. That said, I think it is perfectly reasonable for Irish citizens to donate to Irish political parties. Sinn Féin is not the only political party that does it. Fine Gael regularly has dinners in London. Fianna Fáil regularly has dinners in Brussels.

On the issue of whistleblowers, Dr. Byrne referred to the possibility of having a financial incentive or monetary reward for whistleblowers. What sums does she have in mind? How would she avoid vexatious or false complaints given that there would be a financial reward for engaging in this behaviour as opposed to just doing it because it is the right thing to do?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

How it works in the US is that the award is 10% of the fines that the regulator imposes on the bank. That is how the fine is moderated. How one prevents against vexatious complaints is that if the agency that is charged with investigating the information by the whistleblower gets a conviction, then wrongdoing has occurred. I think that answers that question. That is how one regulates it. The information has to be good enough.

There are very clear rules about members of this committee of inquiry commenting on any media coverage or any witness contributions that have been made. I know Dr. Byrne has been writing extensively on this issue. An article she wrote recently is not in that space. A significant part of this inquiry is to look to the future and draw on lessons from the past to ensure that the type of crisis we had is not visited upon us again. Dr. Byrne wrote an interesting comment about stating the obvious and that this was one of the things this inquiry could be doing that was not done by others. I ask her to expand on that and add any other final points in conclusion.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I write every week so I am trying to remember which article that was.

It was about two weeks ago.

Dr. Elaine Byrne

About two weeks ago. I think that referred to Professor Bill Black's comments, as well as other comments that have been made before the inquiry, that it is not just about looking at the institutions but at the individuals within those institutions. In that article I made reference to legislation and to Judge Rakoff's comments. He is a pretty amazing individual when it comes to economic crime and his comments about wilful neglect. Just because an individual does not know, one also should ask, "Well, should they have known?" There is a responsibility therein. One cannot just hide behind this veil of "I didn't know." The question then arises that one should have known and there is liability therein.

The other piece in that article I referred to was in relation to Europe and penalties that the UK is also trying to bring in on not just fining banks, but fining individual bankers. There has been research done that since 2008 extraordinary fines have been imposed on banking institutions around the world, but behaviour has not changed.

The governor of the Bank of England, who also happens to be an Irish passport holder, has argued very vehemently, "What has changed?" We have had an economic collapse. We have had institutions that have collapsed. We have had massive consequences to individual citizens, but the behaviour of some of these banks has not changed because it is almost like banks are using fines as a line within their accounts. There is an inevitability about it, "We're going to get fined and, sure, that's part of life." So instead of focusing just on the institutions one would also focus on the individuals.

Is there anything Dr. Byrne would like to add by way of concluding comments?

Dr. Elaine Byrne

I thank the Chairman for the invitation.

I thank Dr. Byrne for attending. I thank her for her participation. Today has been very informative. We have had a valuable meeting which has added to our understanding of the factors leading to the banking crisis in Ireland.

Sitting suspended at 11.46 a.m. and resumed at 12.10 p.m.

Mr. Frank McDonald

In session No. 2 we will have a discussion with Mr. Frank McDonald. We are focusing on the theme of relationships between State authorities, political parties, elected representatives, supervisory authorities, banking institutions and the property sector.

I welcome Mr. McDonald, a former journalist with The Irish Times. He commenced his journalistic career as a freelance New York correspondent for the Irish Press , subsequently becoming a sub-editor and reporter for the paper. He joined The Irish Times in 1979. He was the environment correspondent from 1985 to 2000 and environment editor until his official retirement in January of this year. Mr. McDonald is also author of several books, including The Destruction of Dublin, Saving the City and The Construction of Dublin. He is joint author with Peigin Doyle of Ireland's Earthen Houses and with James Nix of Chaos at the Crossroads, published in 2005, which documented the environmental destruction of Ireland during the boom years. He is joint author with Kathy Sheridan of The Builders, which profiles the developers and others in the Celtic tiger period.

In recognition of his work, Frank was conferred with an honorary doctorate by Dublin Institute of Technology in 2006. He was made an honorary member of the Royal Institute of Architects of Ireland of 2010 and an honorary fellow of the Royal Institute of British Architects in 2011 and an honorary life member of the National Union of Journalists in 2014. Mr. McDonald is very welcome to the inquiry this morning.

I advise the witness that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. The witness is asked to refrain from discussing named individuals in this phase of the inquiry. Members are reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or any official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. McDonald to make his opening comments to the inquiry.

Mr. Frank McDonald

It is fair to say that the close relationship between the construction sector in this country, including property developers, and the world of politics, is well-established not only in Ireland but throughout the world. It is not an unusual phenomenon. The Galway tent, notorious in its own way, was our version of it until recently. Back in the 1960s, the nexus of connection between the construction sector and politicians became evident with the formation of Taca, a Fianna Fáil fund-raising organisation which used to run £100-a-plate dinners to raise money for the party and which were pretty scandalous at the time. It is known that there were close connections between leading property developers and senior politicians, as the latter could facilitate the former in securing State tenants for planned office buildings, particularly in Dublin, to cater for our growing Civil Service.

Politicians at local level also played a crucial role in facilitating ambitious plans. Since the 1963 Planning Act came into force in October 1964, it has been a "reserved function" of councillors to make decisions on the content of city or county or indeed, town development plans. What this meant was that they were in charge of zoning land -- making decisions about which land would be designated for development and which land would not be so designated. They had the power, in other words, to transform the value of agricultural land anywhere in Ireland, multiplying it by a factor of ten or more. So there was a lot riding on such decisions.

Between 1963 and 1971, land values in the Dublin area soared by 530% as the scale of the development opportunities became evident and speculators scrambled to buy up land likely to be rezoned for housing, industry or whatever. The then Fianna Fáil Government established a committee on the price of building land, chaired by a renowned constitutional lawyer, Mr. Justice John Kenny, to recommend ways of curbing such speculation. It proposed that all land required for development should be designated and then acquired at its existing use value, plus a premium of 25%. Sadly, over the past 40 years, however, nothing was done to implement this recommendation by any Government in the entire period.

It was inevitable under these circumstances that land speculation would continue and that zoning would become tainted by corruption. Allegations that "brown envelopes" were changing hands, first surfaced in 1974, but a Garda investigation got nowhere. Subsequent Garda investigations in the late 1980s and again in 1993 also got nowhere. The latter investigation, the 1993 investigation, incidentally, arose out of a week-long series of articles in The Irish Times written by Mark Brennock and myself, on suspicious land rezoning decisions in County Dublin. It led off with a news story on the front page, headed, "Cash in brown paper bags for councillors". An advertisement placed by a firm of Newry solicitors offering a €10,000 reward on behalf of then anonymous clients for information that would secure the conviction of persons for engaging in land rezoning corruption ultimately led to the establishment of the planning tribunal, chaired first by Judge Feargus Flood and later by Judge Alan Mahon. The tribunal heard voluminous evidence from witnesses with first-hand experience of corrupt payments and drew a number of conclusions in this regard that were later deemed technically unsound following a Supreme Court ruling. However, I have no doubt personally that corruption lay at the heart of Dublin County Council’s most contentious land rezoning decisions.

One has to remember that the planning tribunal was dealing only with County Dublin as it then was. I have no doubt that there has been corruption elsewhere; otherwise, decisions made by elected representatives against the advice of planning officials are almost inexplicable. After all, we have a political system that is based on clientilism - as the members of this committee know very well. I would define clientilism as doing individual favours for individual constituents, in effect, turning citizens into clients. How much more of a step is it really to seek "political donations" in return for performing such "services" as rezoning such-and-such a parcel of land rather than such-and-such another parcel of land? I would suggest that there is not much of a step between those two things.

Local area plans that were intended to give people more control over what happened in their own areas were turned instead into vehicles for land speculation and the enhancement of land values. This applied right across the board. Laois, Monaghan, Westmeath and Wexford were among the counties that fell victim to this trend. However, every council in Leinster, it seemed, wanted to secure a slice of Dublin’s development. There was massive over-zoning of land during the boom period. In some cases, so much land was being zoned under county and local area plans that it could cater for decades of housing development. In one case, enough land had been zoned in a particular county plan that would have catered for housing demand up until the year 2070. Every county was making these decisions in disregard for what other counties were doing, or not doing, as the case may be. Pressures from farmers and other landowners to have their patches of land zoned for development reached fever pitch in 2007, as the property bubble inflated to its full overblown size. It was little short of a frenzy, as I recall. There was a sense of "It’s now or never" in the air, and some feared that they had already missed the boat or, rather in this case, the hot-air balloon.

Pumping up this balloon for most of the period under review was an array of lucrative tax incentives. There was the long-established section 23 incentive for buy-to-let apartments or houses, and other tax breaks for the development of run-down seaside resorts - a measure introduced by the rainbow coalition in 1996 - hotels, multi-storey carparks, student housing and a specific area-based tax incentive scheme called the upper Shannon rural renewal scheme, which applied to all of counties Leitrim and Longford as well as parts of Cavan, Roscommon and Sligo. In theory, nearly anything developed anywhere within this vast designated area would qualify for tax incentives under the scheme introduced in 1998 by then Finance Minister, Charlie McCreevy. It is hardly surprising then that among the counties severely hit by the phenomenon of ghost estates were Leitrim and Longford, because not only was there massive over-zoning, there was also massive over-development. Laissez-faire planning policies, largely landowner or developer-driven, created the framework for it all to happen while the advent of motorways facilitated and encouraged the sprawl of Dublin and other urban centres by leading people to imagine that they could live up to 100 km from where they worked and get there and back by car. In Gorey, County Wexford, for example, more than 70% of new residents were commuting to work in Dublin, nearly 90 km to the north. The same was happening all over Leinster and even in parts of Ulster. I would instance Virginia, County Cavan, or Carrickmacross in County Monaghan, which have suburban housing estates that are really part of Dublin, in effect.

Yet, the strategic planning guidelines for the greater Dublin area, which were adopted in 1999, had stressed the importance of consolidating the metropolitan area. In other words, the guidelines were anti-sprawl. Although if the guidelines were to mean anything they would have to be enforced, incredibly, no effort was made to do this either by local or central Government. If the suburbs of Dublin were springing up in such unlikely places as Rochfortbridge in County Westmeath, which is 80 km from the capital, it was attributed to market forces and people would come to their senses when houses lost their value, which has happened.

The Government even used escalating house prices in Dublin to promote its controversial decentralisation programme, noting that public servants with homes in the capital would do well on selling them and buying a much cheaper house in one of the 53 locations to which more than 10,000 of them were to be dispersed. The other beneficiaries were the business communities in the towns where new Government office blocks were to be built, including estate agents, shopkeepers, publicans, providers of other local services and those who had sites for sale. It was the same with property-based tax incentives. As more investors availed of these incentives, a whole sector of society had a major vested interest in ensuring the incentives continued for as long as possible.

The banking inquiry committee needs to ask why the property-based tax incentives were continued for so long even though the construction industry was having its biggest, most profitable spree ever. Although it was perfectly justified to introduce the section 23 tax incentive in the late 1980s when the construction industry was on its knees and desperately needed a lift, to persist with these incentives when the construction industry was leading the boom was the height of folly. The Government was adding fuel to the fire, stoking an already hot furnace. The committee needs to ask former Ministers for Finance of the period precisely why they decided that a range of property-based tax incentives should remain in place, given that no public interest reason can be offered to justify such an irrational fiscal policy.

The availability of lucrative tax incentives combined with cheap credit and laissez-faire practices in the banking and planning sectors created and sustained the property bubble. Bankers also played the role of touts for developers. Frequently, it was bankers who spotted development opportunities at well located sites and lined up client developers to run with them, with the bank providing the loan financing. Thus, developers ended up "leveraged up to their eyeballs" as one observer put it. The banks were counting on these developers as men with the Midas touch to repeat their previous performances again and again as more sites came onto the market, even with eye-watering price tags.

So many of us were caught up in the bubble that we could not see it in perspective or at all. It became normal that a fairly average semi-detached house could be worth €1 million or more and that the price per square metre of residential accommodation was higher in Dublin than it was in Paris. Every day, banks sought to persuade us to take out loans for new cars, holidays, home improvements, houses or whatever, and many of us did in droves. That is why economist Professor Morgan Kelly's warning of an imminent collapse in the property market, published by The Irish Times in December 2006, was regarded by many as being as heretical as Martin Luther nailing his theses to the great west door of the Wittenberg cathedral.

I thank Mr. MacDonald for his opening statement. He referred to the reserve function of councillors to make decisions on development plans regarding cities and counties, and that it involved the rezoning of land including agricultural land where the values could increase by factors of ten or more. Does this system exist in any other European planning system outside the Irish jurisdiction?

Mr. Frank McDonald

In Britain, decisions on individual planning applications are made by members of the planning committee of a council, not by the officials. Decisions are made on the recommendations of planning officials who adjudicate on particular applications, after which members of the planning committee vote on whether to grant permission, development control of the function of the council as well as the zoning of land. It is not unusual for councils to be responsible for the zoning of land, and I have no problem with it. My problem is that many of those decisions were taken at the behest of developers, landowners or speculators who were in business at the time. The former chairman of An Bord Pleanála, Mr. John O'Connor, who subsequently went on to chair the Pyrites Resolution Board, drew attention to it at the end of his term of office saying:

By law, development should be led by democratic plans but during the boom period developers and vested interests had undue influence on plan making. Developers had little regard for statutory development plans in buying land and designing schemes. Banks ignored planning parameters in lending, local authorities failed to vindicate their own development plans and An Bord Pleanála has had to refuse or amend many poor quality development plans on appeal. Land values were subverted as well.

He went on to say that councillors and management succumbed to development pressures. The notion was that everywhere should be developed. Local authorities failed to send the right signals to developers. There were conflicts between management and planners within local authorities, minimal involvement in planning decisions by local authority architects and An Bord Pleanála's decisions frequently went unheeded by developers. I would be more than willing to provide a copy of this to the members.

In Mr. McDonald's opening statement, he referred to situations in which the value of agricultural land multiplied by ten times or more after it was rezoned for residential, retail or commercial purposes. In those situations there may be secondary incomes or benefits to the State through stamp duty, rates and development levies. Does the State accrue any immediate income as a result of the increase in land value as soon as the development plan is put in place?

Mr. Frank McDonald

The local authorities accrued income through development levies.

If the value of an acre of land increases from €1,000 to €10,000, does the State get any benefit?

Mr. Frank McDonald

No. The issue of capital gains tax, CGT, would probably have arisen in some cases. There was also a special level of CGT, which has since been abolished, for windfall gains from the sale of land.

Does a similar situation apply in another European jurisdictions?

Mr. Frank McDonald

No. In general, land that is required for development is zoned for it. For example, if one had a plan for a new town, one would zone the land required for the new town, having considered all the factors involved. The entire area would be designated for development and compulsorily acquired by the local authority. A master plan would be done for the entire development, and then the land would be parcelled up and made available for development.

Is the Irish system unique?

Mr. Frank McDonald

While I am not sure I would say it is unique, it is way behind what normally happens elsewhere. The whole business of designating land for the development of new towns is more or less along the lines of what Judge Kenny suggested in his report, namely, agricultural value plus a premium of 25%.

Just one other matter relating to that. Towards the conclusion of your opening statement, you say: "Bankers also played a role of touts for developers. Frequently, it was the banks who spotted the potential of a well-located site and will then line up one of their client developers to run with it." That is on page 3. In general macro terms, not specific situations, how prominent was this approach to property development in the banking market, by your reckoning?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I think it was pretty widespread. I think that banks and developers were working hand in glove in seeking out sites for development. A lot of the stuff one hears is apocryphal, of meetings between fellows playing golf and all the rest of it, saying: "Oh God, I saw that site in such and such a place. It's up for sale. Maybe you should go and by it." They would say that to one of their developer clients and that was quite common. Frequently, it would be the developers who would spot the potential of a site, but frequently, because the banks became so involved in property development and lending funds for that, they had a brace of clients. Each bank had a series of major developer clients. Without naming any particular bank, I think it is very well known that this was the case.

Thank you. I call Deputy Michael McGrath.

Thank you, Chairman. Mr. McDonald is very welcome and I thank him for coming in to us. May I start by asking him about the Kenny report of 1974, which was the committee on the price of building land? Mr. McDonald refers to it in his book, The Builders, co-authored with Kathy Sheridan. Can he advise the committee what the central recommendation of the Kenny report was, and what impact does he believe it would have had if it were implemented?

Mr. Frank McDonald

The central recommendation was pretty clear - it was that land that was required for development in this country should be capable of being acquired at its agricultural value plus a premium of about 25%. In other words, the speculative element of zoning would have been practically eliminated if that was the case.

By the local authority?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes.

Mr. Frank McDonald

The land would have been acquired by the local authority and then presumably a master plan would have been done, as would happen in Britain and other places as well. It would have eliminated the massive increase in value that took place as a result of an unregulated situation.

Would the local authority have commissioned builders to build on the land or would the council have sold the land?

Mr. Frank McDonald

The local authority would not necessarily have held the land in its own ownership, but would - on the basis of a master-plan, with industry here, housing there and shopping here - decide where everything was going to go. It would then parcel up the land and sell it off, or at least make it available to developers to develop. It would have been a much more rational and straightforward way to do it, instead of having a situation where everybody was champing at the bit, looking for their particular parcel to be rezoned because on rezoning the land would then be worth ten times as much as it was before that.

Is the key thing there that the land would have been rezoned first, before it is brought to the market-----

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes, absolutely.

-----rather than buying land speculatively and then trying to get it rezoned?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes, and personally I do not understand. I know the final Kenny report had a minority report which expressed some concern that this might be unconstitutional. Let us not forget, however, that the late Judge Kenny was one of the foremost constitutional lawyers in Ireland. I cannot understand why successive Governments, of every political hue - I am not blaming any party in particular for this - never ran with that. They never understood the fundamental importance of having a rational system for the development of our towns, cities and elsewhere.

In his opening remarks, Mr. McDonald said he had no doubt that there has been corruption elsewhere outside of County Dublin which was examined in the tribunal, otherwise decisions made by elected representatives, against the advice of planning officials, are inexplicable. There is an inference there that where councillors go against the advice of planners there is at least the possibility of corruption being involved. Can Mr. McDonald elaborate on what he means by that, and how widespread he believes that practice was?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I think it goes back to the point I made about the clientelist political system that we have. I want to make it clear that I am not saying every decision made by local authorities and by elected members over the period was corrupt, or anything like it. I am saying, however, that the possibility of corruption certainly existed and I have no doubt that it did occur. There have been cases to do with this in the courts, without naming any names.

I would put the point to Mr. McDonald that professional planners are not infallible gods either.

Mr. Frank McDonald

Absolutely not.

They can make mistakes.

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes, of course.

Very often they may have their own personal agenda or personal vision and can be quite dogged about its implementation. That can seem quite inexplicable at times. Does Mr. McDonald accept that in the interests of proper planning and development, there are many occasions where elected members are right to overrule the professional planners?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I have no doubt that that is also the case, and that has happened. I used to sit in the small press gallery next to the small public gallery in the former Dublin County Council chamber in O'Connell Street. I witnessed a lot of the decisions that were being made and there is no doubt in my mind that there was corruption involved. I saw that very early on and I was appalled by it, to be honest. I have not sat in at very many other local authorities around the country, but I do know about some of the decisions that were being made. Without going into details, these decisions were completely irrational from a planning point of view.

Is this about the zoning of land?

Mr. Frank McDonald

The zoning of land. Some of the zoning decisions that were made were completely irrational. There is no doubt about that. There was no justification for them whatsoever. It was happening all over the place.

Mr. McDonald believes therefore that that practice was quite widespread and that the decisions to zone land were, on many occasions, influenced by such payments. Is that his claim?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Let us put it this way - I agree with the former chairman of An Bord Pleanála, John O'Connor, that far too much of what went on was developer-led, rather than planning-led. That is the crucial difference that one would have to draw - that development plans were being made at the behest of developers, rather than on the basis of rational planning and what was good for the area or good for the country.

Would Mr. McDonald care to put a percentage on, for example, the zoning decisions he believes may have been tainted by corrupt payments?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I could not hazard a guess on that. I am sorry, Deputy.

Is Mr. McDonald saying it was widespread or common?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I am saying the decisions that were being made were so irrational that it seems to me that there was no other explanation, in some cases anyway, except that there was corruption involved.

Does Mr. McDonald believe that the vast majority of elected councillors were and are honest, and are acting in good faith and in the public interest?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I would say in general they would. I think that what happened during the boom period was particularly difficult for councillors, however, because of the frenzy element involved in it on the part of landowners, particularly towards the end of the boom. Before it became clear that it was the end of the boom, if the Deputy gets my drift, landowners in other parts of Leinster, far outside Dublin, were frantic to have their land rezoned. Where local area plans were being done for villages in Laois, Monaghan or wherever, this was happening on a widespread basis. Decisions were being made that were totally irrational from a planning point of view, but which satisfied the urge of the landowners in question to make a huge killing on the sale of land for its speculative value as development land.

Mr. McDonald made the point in his statement that this was, in a sense, inevitable because of the way decisions were made. In that context, has anything changed?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Things have changed. The amended planning Act introduced in 2010 essentially required local authorities to justify their planning decisions. In other words, they had to show cause why particular pieces of land were being zoned and not other pieces of land or whatever. More control was introduced by the legislation over of the excessive zoning of land that took place in the past. In other words, zoning had to be driven by need rather than the wish of particular landowners to make a profit, or a killing.

The zoning of land is absolutely vital but the second element is the granting of planning permission. Does Mr. McDonald have any comment to make on the extent of cases where planners would have been overruled by their own management, for example, on cases where An Bord Pleanála would have reversed the decisions of the planners of local authorities and on cases where An Bord Pleanála would have decided against its own inspector's report where the inspector would have viewed the site but would have been overruled by the board which could not have had such an intimate knowledge? Would Mr. McDonald care to comment on those practices?

Mr. Frank McDonald

All of that happened on a pretty widespread basis. An Bord Pleanála acted, in many ways, as a last line of defence against excessive zoning and I would say, in some cases, crazy planning proposals. I am talking about skyscrapers, 37 storey towers in Ballsbridge and all the rest of it. An Bord Pleanála did not go for that and did not see that those decisions were justified. In some cases, the board would overrule the report of an inspector. That happens but, in most cases, the board at least attempts to justify why it is making a decision which was not particularly recommended by the planning inspector who dealt with the case. I suppose one could not expect that the planning inspectors would, in effect, have a monopoly on wisdom either. The board could take a more considered view or might give more weight to particular Government policies, with national policy overriding whatever reservations one might have about a particular scheme in that if it complied with national policy, the board would be inclined to grant permission for it. I am thinking of wind farms, for example, which might be very unpopular locally but the board would say that, on balance, because of national policy to encourage renewable energy, it should grant planning permission for the wind farm.

I would like to ask Mr. McDonald about the issue of pre-planning consultations between builders-developers and planners in local authorities. He referred to this on page 6 of his book. Does Mr. McDonald believe there was, and is, adequate disclosure of the engagement between planners and prospective applicants, for example? Does he believe there were occasions when the nod was given, essentially in private, to prospective applicants to submit an application for major developments, for example, high-density developments which were higher than might otherwise have been envisaged?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes. There is absolutely no doubt that was happening, and again on a fairly widespread basis. It is something that should not have happened, but it happened a lot.

In the preface to his book on page 15, Mr. McDonald comments that the Financial Regulator appears to have been asleep at the wheel. I know this is not his area of expertise but he made the observation. Does Mr. McDonald want to expand on that?

Mr. Frank McDonald

My impression during the period was that no effective controls were being exercised in relation to the lending of money. In the Ireland in which I grew up, the maximum a bank would have lent one would have been two and half times one's salary or whatever. That was very much an issue of prudence. The banks were being prudent by not over-lending to people. In France, for example, it is against the law to lend people more money than they can afford to repay. That is one of the reasons the French banks did not collapse in the way ours nearly did, without the injection of massive sums of money by the State.

On the issue of property-based tax incentives, which Mr. McDonald highlighted in his statement, will he clarify the incentives he believes the committee should be exploring? He names a number of them, including the section 23 hotels, seaside resorts, multi-storey carparks, student housing and Shannon rural renewal schemes. Will he give us his view as to exactly what the committee should be examining? He acknowledges that the introduction of such reliefs can be justified at times but he certainly indicates that they may have been retained for too long. Can he elaborate on what he believes the committee could usefully do in that area and how it links in with the overall property and banking nexus?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I have never heard a rational explanation for why the property-based tax incentives continued for so long and I would like to hear former Ministers for Finance, of whom there were several during the period, justify, in their own terms, why these incentives continued for so long. My personal belief, as I said in my statement, is that there was such a large constituency of people who benefited from the tax incentives that, in itself, led to a lot of lobbying. Whenever there was a danger that the incentives would be phased out, there was heavy pressure brought to bear on the Government by the construction industry to continue the incentives for as long as possible and to roll them over. There were multimillionaires in this country who were property investors and who ended up paying hardly any tax at all because they were availing of so many incentives, including section 23, multi-storey car parks, hotels, student housing and so on. I think they had the ear of Government. That is my impression. The construction industry realised the boomtime could only be sustained if the tax incentives were sustained because otherwise, how could people have thought it was good value to buy a two bedroom flat for €450,000 if it was not for the fact that they were able to write all of that off against their tax liability? That is what made the difference in terms of the viability of a particular investment.

I welcome Mr. McDonald. Following on from questions Deputy McGrath asked in relation to the tax reliefs, Mr. McDonald stated in his opening statement that section 23 was justifiably introduced at the end of the 1980s. In his view, were any of the other reliefs justifiably introduced at the start? He pointed out, as did other witnesses, that they were extended for too long but were any of the other reliefs justifiable in terms of their initial introduction?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I am not sure they were. I would have to be really convinced about that. I do not believe they were. I am thinking, for example, of the seaside resorts tax incentive scheme. What happened was that vast townlands became designated areas. The area around Courtown in County Wexford, for example, which included Riverchapel and a vast area, was designated and anything built in that area qualified for the tax incentives, in particular holiday homes.

The real problem with the scheme was that if the aim was to rejuvenate rundown seaside resorts like Enniscrone, Lahinch or Courtown then the incentives should have been restricted to things such as all-weather playing facilities, swimming pools or other such major elements that would have added value to those places. However, once housing was included as a qualifying category it then ate up the vast bulk of the tax incentives available. Something like 85% of all the investment leveraged by that tax incentive scheme consisted of houses. In effect, those houses were three quarter scale. The great trick of that tax incentive scheme was to persuade people who lived in semi-detached houses in the suburbs to spend their holidays in semi-detached houses, of a lesser scale, in one of the designated areas. I do not think it was justified to that extent. If housing had not been included as a qualifying category the scheme might have been very beneficial.

Mr. McDonald made a point on lending levels in France and other countries. Does the witness think the thresholds announced recently by the Central Bank, on levels of deposits required by people purchasing property, would have been useful had they existed prior to the financial collapse?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Of course. If people had not got a direct line in unlimited credit then we would not have had a property bubble. It stands to reason.

That is fair enough, Mr. McDonald is not the first witness to express that view. Does he believe the funding mechanism which existed for local government prior to the collapse had an impact on some of the zoning decisions mentioned in his earlier evidence, and an impact on the subsequent collapse? Does the witness have a view as to how local government might be funded properly?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I never agreed with the idea of abolishing domestic rates. I believe that was a fatally flawed decision which had the effect, from 1978 onwards, of undermining what little authority the local authorities had. That is still the case today. An alternative method of funding from the road tax was unsatisfactory. We now have the local property tax but it is different in that it is collected by the Revenue Commissioners rather than by local authorities. I have always believed in the old saying, "There can be no taxation without representation" and the reverse of that is also true - there can be no representation without taxation. Local authorities should have tax powers. They do not have that. Revenue is collecting the money from the local property tax, so the direct relationship which should exist between the citizen and his or her local authority is undermined by Revenue's involvement.

In his statement and in much of his writing the witness focuses on the relationship between developers, builders, government, politicians and decisions which were made. Does he believe a wider constituency of people and professions outside, including the media itself, were willing participants or beneficiaries of the explosion in house prices prior to the collapse?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Is the Deputy talking about property supplements?

Partly, but I am just asking the witness for his own view.

Mr. Frank McDonald

It is true that the media, including The Irish Times, benefitted enormously from property advertising during the boom period. The media were leaving themselves open to the accusation they were cheerleaders for the property bubble, not least because of revenue they were earning from it. In defence of The Irish Times, I would point out that it not only published Morgan Kelly's Cassandra-like article in December 2006, but it also drew attention to the downsides of all of this in other sections of the newspaper. Kathy Sheridan and I did a series on the commuter counties about people having to get up at 6 a.m., get on the road by 7 a.m. and all the rest of it, if they were to get to work in Dublin by 8.30 a.m. I do not think it is fair to say that the media were uncritical of what was going on. I believe those of us who recognised there was a real problem developing were voicing those opinions.

Did the witness voice those concerns himself internally at the time? Did he express those views?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I did yes. I was writing it.

I know he was writing publicly, but did he express those concerns internally?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I am sure I did because I was horrified by what was happening. When a rather undistinguished house in Shrewsbury Road, Dublin was sold for the staggering sum of €58 million, that obviously had to appear on the front page of the paper because it was so staggering. My reaction to it was that whoever spent that kind of money on a house like that must be out of their mind.

I want to change tack because I do not want to put the witness personally on the spot about his own views. We had Dr. Peter Bacon in with the committee last week. He is the author of some very well known reports on the housing sector. He is of the view that the property market in Ireland was too much dominated by internal forces. He expressed strongly the view there were not enough publicly rated companies involved in funding the property sector and there was not enough investment in the property sector from outside the island of Ireland. Does the witness share Dr. Bacon's views on that? Does he think a broader base of investment might have had a different impact on the direction of the property sector in Ireland?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I do not know if that would necessarily follow, unless the banks were to have changed their lending policies. It was the unlimited supply of nearly free credit, or very low interest credit, that fuelled the boom, not the personalities involved.

I have two brief final questions. In his book The Builders, co-authored with Kathy Sheridan, the witness details the careers of many of the largest developers and builders in Ireland prior to the crisis. Can the witness outline briefly how he would describe their approach to business? Does he believe that their entrepreneurial approach had an impact on the subsequent boom in prices and the difficulties which arose from that?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Developers were out to make money. There is nothing wrong with that and we should not be surprised about it. That is what they do. There is no point in building something for sale unless one can get a good price for it and make a profit in the process. That is the basis of the system we have and the developers operated it.

Again, they had an unlimited supply of credit available to them. If they wanted to buy a site for €10 million or whatever, it was no problem to them to get the money from the bank. Every acquisition was funded separately, sometimes even by a consortium of banks. The determination would be there then to secure the maximum amount of development on that particular site, so that one ended up with these vast schemes such as the Beacon South Quarter and other places like it. It was like little pieces of Los Angeles were appearing in south Dublin. One was left wondering what on earth was going on.

Was there an appreciation among those builders and developers of the risks they were taking on, particularly towards the end of the boom period, in terms of the huge sums of money that were being borrowed, often from multiple institutions, as Mr. McDonald mentioned? Or was there a belief, as he touched on in his statement, that this was just going to continue, that these people had always turned a profit and would continue always to be lucky?

Mr. Frank McDonald

The problem in any bubble is the perception that the only way to go is up. The warning seen at the end of some advertisements for financial products which says "Markets may go down as well as up" was forgotten during the boom. Developers forgot it, too. A massively overpriced asset did not seem massively overpriced to them at the time because they were all caught up in this belief that everything was onwards and upwards. That was the risk.

Cuirim fáilte roimh Mr. McDonald go dtí an coiste. He made quite a strong statement regarding the decision making that went on in local authorities outside of Dublin when he said he has "no doubt" that corruption was involved. Will he elaborate on that? What did he observe that led him to make such a strong statement to this committee of investigation?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I observed the most irrational decisions being made by local authorities in terms of the zoning of land. In some cases, as I mentioned, more land was being zoned than would be needed for decades. That is to say, so much land was being zoned that it would take decades to develop it all. Yet, the plan-making period was supposed to be five years. Every development plan has a life of five years, so all that should have been zoned was sufficient land to cover that five-year period, perhaps with a possible 20% extra as a landbank in case it was needed. What was happening, however, was that massive amounts of land were being zoned for development in different parts of the country, particularly in Leinster, because councillors were under pressure from landowners to get their particular parcel zoned for development so they could make the money and go.

Is Mr. McDonald allowing for councillors' stupidity in terms of maybe not knowing what they were doing? We do not want to get into individual names because that is forbidden at this stage of the inquiry, but Mr. McDonald's statement clearly indicates corruption, which is an illegal activity. Based on what he observed, is he suggesting there was a transfer of cash or payment to individuals?

Mr. Frank McDonald

No more than in the case of County Dublin, I was not there to witness brown envelopes being handed over, but I have no doubt that the phenomenon of planning corruption or land rezoning corruption, whatever one wants to call it, was not an exclusively County Dublin phenomenon. It would be fatuous and nonsensical to think it was confined to County Dublin; it was not.

What is Mr. McDonald's view in regard to the closing down - "halting" might be a better term - of the independent investigations that were planned for seven local authorities and subsequently replaced by reviews?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I was appalled by what happened; I am still appalled by it. There were very substantial allegations made in regard to what was going on in those seven local authorities but the Department of the Environment had no interest in investigating what was really going on. None of the allegations was effectively examined and a kind of whitewash was thrown over the whole thing. Do not forget that one of the central recommendations of the planning tribunal was that there should be an independent planning regulator appointed. That is not going to happen. The terms that have been announced in this regard do not involve the holder of that office being independent.

Mr. McDonald has pre-empted my next question, which is what we need to do looking forward. He has suggested an independent planning regulator should be appointed, as recommended by the tribunal. In regard to what happened in the past in terms of corruption in the planning process outside the confines of Dublin, how is that best dealt with?

Mr. Frank McDonald

We really do need an independent planning regulator who would have the power to investigate allegations of substance in regard to what is going on in whatever local authority it happens to be.

The property-State-finance nexus - the linkages between property, the State and the finance sector, and the implications thereof - is what we are discussing under this module. What are Mr. McDonald's thoughts on that dynamic? How would he describe it and what is his opinion of it based on his extensive research, particularly for the two books I have in front of me?

Is the Deputy referring to the pre-crisis years?

Yes, I am talking about the lead-up to 2008.

Mr. Frank McDonald

Those relationships were very close. The construction industry, in particular, is very well connected, not just with the present Government but also with previous Governments, and very well able to lobby politicians and all the rest of it. To give an example, there was a case some years ago where the then Government had the option of introducing higher energy performance rating requirements for houses and higher energy performance standards in general. That initiative was deferred, as a result of which approximately a quarter of a million houses were built during the boom period which have the most woeful energy performance and will all now have to be retrofitted. The reason that happened, as an FOI request to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government revealed, was that the building regulations were going to have to be changed. It was going to happen sooner rather than later due to the targets set under the Kyoto Protocol on climate change. However, the memo went on to say, "We don't want to signal this to the outside world just yet because the next leap in building standard insulation will probably involve making it difficult for the hollow block construction used widely in the Dublin area to survive". What is that except playing to a vested interest? So what if there were guys making hollow concrete blocks in Dublin? They can do something else. Why was it regarded as being so important that this particular sector be protected? These guys were building crap houses.

Let us be clear about that. These houses were rubbish, from an energy performance point of view, and yet the Department of the environment allowed it to go on and on. It was only in recent years that we finally caught up with the idea that we needed to have higher energy performance in housing, so that people do not have to spend so much money on fuel and all the rest, and we can cut down emissions.

I welcome Mr. McDonald. His expertise is on what happened with the environment and building. With all his writings over the years, was he ever approached or contacted by bankers, developers, government or officials in Departments about his writings?

Mr. Frank McDonald

In what way?

About a critical comment. Clearly, Mr. McDonald has written three or four publications that were quite critical. He has also written extensively in the The Irish Times on various aspects over the period. Was he contacted by people on what he had said?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes, I would have been.

What was the tone of those comments, by way of example?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I suppose if one lashed out against the construction industry then the Construction Industry Federation would get on to one, or perhaps the editor, to complain about the treatment that was being meted out. I know that various property developers, over the years, made representations to editors of The Irish Times in regard to what I was writing. I continued on and I did not feel intimidated. I was never personally threatened by anybody.

Did bankers make an approach?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I had very little contact with bankers throughout the period. I am not sure that they, particularly, got on to complain about what I was doing. Very few of them - I do not think any of them - got on to me personally. I did meet bankers, on occasion, but that was in a social context.

Did Mr. McDonald consider, in terms of dealing with bankers and developers, that they felt they were invincible in that period?

Please reframe the question.

(Interruptions).

Obviously somebody is trying to contact me.

I ask the Deputy to reframe his question. The interruptions by the mobile telephone did him a favour.

Does Mr. McDonald consider, over that period, that certain people who were involved in the construction sector felt they were invincible in terms of the way they acted?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Absolutely.

Deputy O'Donnell could use the term, "Did their behaviour", rather than ask a leading question.

Let us say from Mr. McDonald's view of their behaviour, did they exhibit signs that they were invincible?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes. It was shown, even at a banal level, by the size of their cars and helicopters.

Mr. McDonald spoke about the bankers. He said, "Bankers also played the role of touts for developers". In his experience, was it a feature around that time of individual bankers going into joint ventures with developers?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes.

I refer to where the bank, in which they worked, provided funding. Was that a feature?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes, it was and it worked for everybody. I mean it worked for the bank and it worked for the developer.

Were there procedures in place, be it with the banks in terms of their internal controls or the Financial Regulator, where one could not have a situation where they were both poacher and gamekeeper? I refer to where the individual banker worked within the bank.

Mr. Frank McDonald

When Bank of Ireland was founded by David La Touche back in the 1780s, or thereabouts, prudence would have been a central concern of people like him, that they would not involve themselves in irresponsible lending. That they would only lend-----

The question I asked Mr. McDonald was-----

I ask the Deputy to please allow Mr. McDonald to answer his first question. I shall bring in the Deputy again for his last question.

Mr. Frank McDonald

Prudence was dumped. Basically, that is what happened.

Did the banks have rules within their institutions where, effectively, they stated that bankers could not be involved in joint ventures with developers of which the bank provided funding?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I am not aware of that.

My final question is in terms of our inquiries into the banking crisis. What does Mr. McDonald believe was the single factor, in terms of his experience, that contributed to the banking crisis?

Mr. Frank McDonald

The first signs of it were the sub-prime lending crisis in the United States, being constantly assured that the same situation did not apply here and there was no such thing as sub-prime lending, etc. In fact, that is what was going on. People were being lent much more money than they could afford to repay which is, by definition, sub-prime. That is what lay at the heart of the matter.

When we first got the warning signals from the United States, with Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and whatever else all basically falling apart as a result of irresponsible lending, in effect the writing was on the wall. Except that here we were in denial that this was, in effect, what was happening - that money was being lent, on an unlimited basis, for overpriced assets.

I thank Mr. McDonald.

Deputy O'Donnell is out of time and I call Senator Michael D'Arcy.

I thank Mr. McDonald for attending. He has put a lot of play on zoning. I shall ask about the checks and balance, following on from zoning, and the provision of services. Does that have to do with councillors?

Mr. Frank McDonald

It does because one cannot have development without providing services. Once lands were zoned for development, it became inevitable that services would have to be provided for that land.

Mr. McDonald made the assertion earlier that zoning was to happen on the basis of it standing for the five-year period of the local area plan. In a lot of cases, the checks and balance within the system was that the Department did not provide funding for water and-or water and sewerage.

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes, but do not forget that the local authorities had development levies which were very substantial, and still are, so that they could raise huge sums of money themselves. For example, I was astonished to discover recently that if one wanted to convert a Georgian house in Merrion Square from office use to residential use by, say, putting in five flats or one flat per floor, that one would have to pay a development levy to Dublin City Council of €60,000. That is when one is doing something that is clearly in the public interest. It is clearly in the public interest that the Georgian squares of Dublin, on the southside in particular, should be returned to residential use, to the greatest possible extent. Yet the local authority was screwing the developers who were planning to do so.

I am trying to say to Mr. McDonald that there were checks and balances. If the Department or local authority were dissatisfied with a zoning there was another method in which the funding was not provided.

Mr. Frank McDonald

That did happen, certainly. What more particularly happened was that eventually a Minister for the Environment decided to avail of the powers that he had, to call in a draft local area plan, county plan or whatever for review by the Department and that started happening. I think it was in 2003 or 2004. It was the first time that the power was actually used. If I am not mistaken, I think it was by Dick Roche, then also by his successor, John Gormley, and that was pretty much it. That was a check and balance, if one likes.

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes, it was used.

Could I ask Mr. McDonald about the guideline on sustainable residential development in urban areas, which went back as far as 1999? It was effectively a guideline for the planners on the quantum of units per acre. What is Mr. McDonald's view on the figure for villages and small towns, which was from 400 to 2,000?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Four hundred to 2,000 what?

People. The guideline was for up to 20 houses or units per acre. What is Mr. McDonald's opinion on that guideline?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I think there is an irrational fear in this country over residential density. I would defend it on the basis that it makes for a more compact urban environment than we would have otherwise. If we were to build at the rate of eight to ten houses per acre, which used to be standard in the past, we would have housing everywhere. There was a strong argument for higher densities. That does not mean high rise; it just means building to a higher density than we were used to in the past. It sustains local services. If one has-----

Can I pursue this because my time is running very short? If there are 400 in a village, or three people per house and 150 or 160 houses, and one adds 20 houses per acre, that is seven acres. That doubles the size of a residential unit.

Mr. Frank McDonald

The residential development.

Yes. My point is that it is a big island with a small number of people. The guidelines were the same guidelines, the one-fits-all-----

Mr. Frank McDonald

I agree with the Senator that-----

The high-density residential developments guidelines.

Mr. Frank McDonald

I obviously agree with the Senator that the high-density residential developments guidelines were intended to apply largely to cities rather than villages.

They applied to communities of 400 to 2,000.

Mr. Frank McDonald

That is true but I still believe that if one looks at the density at which Irish towns were built in the past, including the 19th century and even earlier, one will find it would be up to that level.

Of the 11 of us on the inquiry team, eight were councillors at some stage. Mr. McDonald was very harsh on councillors. If he were itemising the mistakes made overall in terms of councillors in conjunction with planners, the guidelines and An Bord Pleanála, how would he lay the blame?

Mr. Frank McDonald

As between the different-----

Errors, yes.

Mr. Frank McDonald

In relation to zoning, obviously the councillors had the whip hand there. As I suggested earlier, I think An Bord Pleanála had a moderating influence on what was going on. That was one of the checks and balances, if one likes. That is something I certainly welcomed but I think that everybody was at fault in believing that we could have development everywhere. That was the fatal flaw.

How much did the demand, or perceived demand, for one-off housing impact upon that general culture?

Mr. Frank McDonald

The demand?

For one-off housing.

Mr. Frank McDonald

That is a different thing really because it involves individuals essentially providing houses for themselves.

But development plans would get changed because of a petition or motion before a local authority to change or facilitate-----

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes. In the past there were section 4 motions, as they were known, and then they were renamed. I cannot remember what the latest one is.

Mr. Frank McDonald

Section 47. I thank the Senator. That was notorious and it was used widely in rural local authorities to grant planning permissions for developments that would otherwise-----

The Senator is over time. The witness is responding to me. I ask Mr. McDonald to continue responding.

Mr. Frank McDonald

Everybody was culpable to a greater or lesser extent, whether one is talking about the councillors, the planners or others. The main thing that they were culpable of really was believing that we could have development everywhere, and that there would be something for everyone in the audience. I do not believe the one-off housing phenomenon had very much to do with the banking crisis, as such; it just meant that people were able to get money more easily to build larger houses, so one ended up-----

The question I am putting to Mr. McDonald is on the rigidity and fluidity of development plans. What would have been the cultural impact in this regard?

Mr. Frank McDonald

The culture is an anti-planning culture in this country. There is still a belief that people have a right to do whatever they like with their own land. They ask who these planners are to come and tell them that they cannot. That is a particularly prevalent and deep-rooted view that exists pretty much right across the country. That makes it very difficult for planners to point us in a more rational direction. If there is not a consensus on the need for planning - planning essentially involves making tough decisions about what we are going to do and what we are not going to do - it is an issue. We are not used to being told we cannot do things. We do not want to be told we cannot do things; we want to be told we can and that, if one has a half-acre site, of course one will get planning permission to build on it. That is why we have 500,000 houses all over the countryside in Ireland.

In regard to the nexus of property interests and developers, Mr. McDonald relates back to TACA, the fund-raising venture for Fianna Fáil in the 1960s involving significant property interests. He then moved forward to the Galway tent, where developers socialised with senior Fianna Fáil politicians. Does he say there is an unbroken thread from the 1960s to the 2000s in relation to inappropriate and close relationships between developers and senior politicians, a political party or parties?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes, it is a continuous thread.

Mr. McDonald covered extensively the Dublin county development plan from 1991 to 1993. He wrote a series of articles at that time referring to Dublin county. The headline of one of those articles alludes to "where it is possible to boost the value of parcels of land beyond the dreams of avarice", and another headline reads, "Cash in brown paper bags for councillors". In that series of articles, Mr. McDonald termed the 72-member Dublin County Council as a rezoning coalition. What did he mean by that?

Mr. Frank McDonald

What I meant by that was that at successive meetings, which were taking place more than weekly, as Deputy Joe Higgins will recall having been a member of the council at the time, there was a coalition of interest in facilitating development, as between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. The Labour Party in general opposed-----

(Interruptions).

Mr. Frank McDonald

In general a rezoning motion would be supported by Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael councillors and opposed, in general, by Labour and some others on the council, including Deputy Higgins. I am not saying that Labour was consistently against zoning land. In fact, there were several cases where they supported in some cases even controversial zonings. There was a presumption in favour of development in that chamber. I do not believe that there is any doubt about that and whatever the developers or the landowners wanted to do was, in general, facilitated.

Did tribunals make any findings in relation to councillors' activities during that period?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes, they did. The tribunal did make findings.

In 1993 in one of those articles Mr. McDonald referred to a former councillor who, in defending the extensive rezoning in Dublin County Council said, "I have never put a boundary to the onward march of a nation." Mr. McDonald said, "If this type of planning prevails we will start hitting the outskirts of Dublin in or around Kinnegad." When I was rereading that I had echoes of Macbeth being told his fate would be sealed if "Birnam wood do come to Dunsinane," his castle.

Mr. Frank McDonald

That is right.

It is more a case of the castle coming to Birnam wood in Mr. McDonald's prognosis.

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes.

Did the outskirts of Dublin come to Kinnegad?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes.

What were or are the implications of that?

Mr. Frank McDonald

It was not just Kinnegad. Virtually everywhere in Leinster was subsumed into a sprawled Dublin. I mentioned Rochfortbridge. It was in the mid-1990s that I remember passing through Rochfortbridge on the way back from Galway and being shocked to discover that there seemed to be, as it were, suburban housing estates being built up around it and it seemed to me to be like bits of Ballinteer, as it were, that ended up 80 km away. The same was happening in Portlaoise, Gorey, Drogheda, Dundalk and Cavan. It was happening everywhere.

Mr. McDonald---

I am giving Deputy Higgins two minutes.

The 2007 register of Dáil Members found that the following percentages of TDs were either landlords or owned commercial residential investment property: 39 of 78 Fianna Fáil TDs, 50%; 49% of Fine Gael TDs; and 20% of Labour Party TDs. In 2013 the register showed 27% of Members of the Dáil were registered landlords. In 2007 an RTE "Prime Time" documentary found 22% of councillors dealt in or developed land in their day job as estate agents, landowners and builders. On the face of it this would seem objectively to be an unusually high concentration of property interests among public representatives at local and national level. Does Mr. McDonald believe that this might---

This is the Deputy's final question.

Does Mr. McDonald believe that this might have influenced planning decisions or influenced the light touch regulation that existed during the creation of the bubble and which has been referred to in evidence to the committee? Does he believe that that may have influenced the attitude that political parties took in Dáil Éireann between 1997 and 2007? For example, what role did Opposition parties play at that time in relation to the bubble that was being created?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I think there is no doubt about it that politicians who come from an estate agency background or who are otherwise involved in property would have a benign view of development. It goes back to the point that I made that there was a presumption in favour of development everywhere and I would say that that applied with knobs on in cases where the local authorities were populated by people from the property sector who immediately understood why a particular piece of land should be zoned or not, as the case may be.

Did it influence the Dáil in the pre-bubble period?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I am not sure about whether it influenced the Dáil or not but I think that one has to pose the question as to why is it that the Kenny report was never implemented. I believe the reason that happened was because there were too many people who were potential beneficiaries of not implementing it. That is what happened.

I have three questions. The first is following on from Deputy Higgins. Did Mr. McDonald find this presumption in favour of development among officials as well? What relationship does our development-led planning process have to that?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes, it was a view held by officials as well, particularly county managers in my experience. Professional planners were much less enthusiastic about the wilder aspects of development than county managers were. In counties that had a perception of themselves as having not done terribly well in the past that was their chance to improve their lot, as it were. In some cases, indeed in many cases, the recommendations of professional planners were overturned by county managers. In fact, I know of one county manager who said, "Do not be giving me reports recommending refusals."

Is it Mr. McDonald's understanding that the investigations that were to take place, the external investigations into certain councils, were to look into that kind of behaviour?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes, and more. Not just that but also other stuff as well but the substance of the allegations were never examined in those inquiries that took place. That is the problem. There was an unwillingness to face up to the maladministration and worse that took place in various counties that were named and were the subject of so-called investigations. The investigations were not actual investigations in the sense that there was no determination to find out what really went on. For example, the people who were making the allegations were never interviewed.

Where does Mr McDonald believe that unwillingness came from?

Mr. Frank McDonald

The system.

The system just in itself was not willing to investigate itself.

Mr. Frank McDonald

The system does not want light to be thrown on the way it operates, in effect.

Who has responsibility for ensuring that light is thrown on the system when it needs to be?

Mr. Frank McDonald

The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government. Successive Ministers for the Environment, Community and Local Government, it seems to me, going back to the mid-1990s were unwilling to do that.

My second question is in relation to Mr. McDonald's opening statement in which he talks about no effort being made to enforce the anti-sprawl guidelines.

Mr. Frank McDonald

The greater Dublin area strategic planning guidelines.

Exactly. Would there have been competing pressures from other interested groups not to enforce those guidelines?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes.

For example, from a residents' association or from a body like An Taisce.

Mr. Frank McDonald

No, I do not believe that was the case at all. An Taisce and any sensible residents' association in Dublin would certainly have supported the strategic planning guidelines for the greater Dublin area. Those guidelines became yet another example of the way we do things in this country which is we write loads of stuff down as aspirations and aims and objectives and mission statements and all the rest of it but there is no determination behind it to actually implement what is written down. The strategic planning guidelines for the greater Dublin area that date from 1999 turned out to be a total paper tiger.

My final question is intended to get Mr. McDonald's opinion on something because it is something I am trying to think through myself. In Mr. McDonald's opinion is there an ethical difference between a councillor taking money to vote a certain way and a Minister or a Government party introducing a tax incentive after receiving donations from someone who will then benefit from it?

Mr. Frank McDonald

No. They are the same, it seems to me.

I thank Mr. McDonald.

Senator Susan O'Keeffe has six minutes.

In reading Mr. McDonald's book there is a thread that runs through it relating to private clients, high net worth individuals, coming together and forming private syndicates. In some cases he names some of those members and I am wondering whether he knew the names of others and did not name them or did he only names the ones he did know.

Mr. Frank McDonald

I know many of them.

Were politicians ever involved in these private syndicates?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I do not know that for a fact, but I know people who were involved in-----

We will not speculate.

Mr. Frank McDonald

I know people who were involved in syndicates, if that is what the Senator means-----

Mr. Frank McDonald

-----and both made and lost a lot of money.

We will not speculate about names.

I was not asking for names. I am asking Mr. McDonald if any of the names is that of a politician, either at national or local level?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Not that I am personally aware of.

In terms of the private syndicates, obviously people were offered the opportunity to make money. Does Mr. McDonald know if there was any tax benefit in the way the syndicates were structured?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I do not know that for a fact, but I know that, in general, people who were high net worth individuals would have been under a lot of pressure to take part in different syndicates. They would receive telephone calls from people telling them that they were being too cautious and too conservative and that they needed to have more leverage. "Leverage" was a polite word for debt. In other words, they needed to get into more debt for their own good and that they would make loads of money in the end, but sometimes it did not work out like that. Sometimes things went down rather than up.

Obviously, some of the syndicates set up parts which were offshore or out of the country.

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes.

Would that have helped, in any way, any of these high net worth individuals?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes, of course, it would have. If it was set up in an offshore tax haven, of course, it would benefit the individuals involved. It would be a way, in effect, to evade Irish tax.

In a way, along with the capacity to create a profit, in borrowing to build, there was also this other piece that could offer that opportunity.

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes, but do not forget that I have drawn attention to the property-based tax incentive schemes which explicitly encouraged people to invest in order that they would make loads of money out of it.

I do not know if Mr. McDonald knows the answer to this question, but I will ask it. In regard to the Asset Covered Securities (Amendment) Act 1997, was there a noticeable change in the way commercial lending occurred after that?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I have no idea.

Mr. McDonald mentioned in his book that Government Departments and semi-State bodies were, if one likes, tenants of some of the developers. Will he explain whether this, in any way, contributed to the closeness between them or was it just because they had to locate somewhere?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I do not think there was anything of particular importance in relation to it. It was normal for property developers to own office buildings or whatever else which would end up being rented to the State. In the past it was certainly true that connections were used to arrange for State tenants. In other words, a developer, before embarking on a particular office block, for example, would already have lined up a semi-State company or a branch of the Civil Service to occupy the building, which then made it a complete blue chip or a no fail investment.

In Mr. McDonald's knowledge, was it done through people knowing each other or through-----

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes.

It was done through people knowing each other, not through a tender or anything else.

Mr. Frank McDonald

That played a role in it in many cases, but it would not have been exclusive. There would have been straightforward lettings of buildings owned by somebody, but that would have been completely coincidental.

Why does Mr. McDonald think planning officials who would have watched some of what he has described today as zoning of extraordinary proportions stayed quiet?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Because they had their jobs to protect. If one was working for, say, Dublin City Council and one had grave reservations about what was going on in the council chamber, what could one have done? Planners and other public servants would have tipped us off about things coming up because they were so appalled by what was going on. I am delighted they did this. It is very gratifying to know that there are public servants who are concerned about the public interest and the public interest being subverted to serve private interests and profit. It was very dispiriting for the planners, in particular in County Dublin but elsewhere also. They saw rational planning being thrown out the window for the cause of somebody or other who owned a particular parcel of land to make a few bob.

We know a little about the way some public representatives were paid. They literally received money. Is Mr. McDonald aware of any other rewards people were given or offered? Were they offered houses or shares in companies? Will Mr. McDonald tell us a little about what he knows?

Mr. Frank McDonald

It is true that there were other ways of paying people. For example, in lieu of a fee, an architect might have been given two or three flats in a scheme which would have been section 23 qualifying investments. That kind of quid pro quo stuff goes on all the time in this country. It appears to be tax efficient as well.

Is it still going on?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I would say it is

I welcome Mr. McDonald. He talked about tax breaks and so on. Would he have misgivings about real estate investment trusts, REITs?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I do not know enough about them to be able to say, but I suspect it is another way of keeping investors happy.

The Kenny report states the President, when asked to sign the Bill, should refer it to the Supreme Court under Article 26 of the Constitution. In fact, Dr. Elaine Byrne records that the secretary in the President's office was quite cross about this. Was it an own goal by Mr. Justice Kenny? I have never seen a report stating that if one is worried that what is being recommended is unconstitutional, one should ask the President to refer it. If one is in a favour of something, one leaves it up to the President to decide.

Mr. Frank McDonald

That may have arisen in the context of there being a majority report and a minority report. The minority report specifically raised the issue of whether the proposed measure was constitutional. I think this may have motivated Mr. Justice Kenny to recommend that it be referred by the President to the Supreme Court.

I think it arose first on the corner of Hume Street and then in a case near Swords, but how did the State come to be on the hook when planning permission was refused? I think €1.9 million was paid in 1989 because planning permission had been refused. That meant the officials in the council had to undertake the rezoning which Mr. McDonald strongly and rightly criticised. I am trying to think of an analogy. If people apply to get into medical school but do not get in, they do not have a right to compensation from the dean of the medical school. How did this arise in the property market?

Mr. Frank McDonald

It was one of the real fears of many local authorities and arose, in particular, in County Dublin. It was built into the 1963 Act. I think it was in it to vindicate the property rights people had under the Constitution in order that if a local authority refused planning permission for a development, one could sue it for compensation on the basis that it had devalued one's property. There were several notorious cases where a case would then go to the State property arbitrator and the decision would either be upheld or the amount of money involved would be reduced. There are several very good examples of where this happened, about which Senator can find out.

I refer to development levies. Do they make local authorities which are supposed to be adjudicating on this issue in the wider national interest partners in allowing projects to go ahead?

I am thinking of the case of Meath County Council in rezoning parts of Carton which were turned down by An Bord Pleanála. The incentive for the council and the officials was that there would be loot for the local authority.

Will Mr. McDonald comment on that? It is more of a statement than a comment.

Mr. Frank McDonald

There is no doubt that this was going on, not just in terms of development levies which became a huge source, at least theoretically, of new revenue for otherwise cash-strapped local authorities. There was an incentive for them to grant planning permission because they would get, say, €60,000 or €200,000 in development levies in return. It became one of their major money-spinners during the boom period. Many of these levies, as we now know, were not paid, however, because the market had collapsed and the developers had gone to the wall or whatever.

It was not just development levies. The other factor that played a crucial role in determining whether something was permitted or not was the long-term benefit to the council of the rates revenue that a development could generate. For example, every shop in the huge complex of Dundrum Town Centre is paying rates to Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council. The council, not surprisingly, facilitated that scheme even though it contributed to the death of the Main Street in Dún Laoghaire.

Does Mr. McDonald feel the media acted as a cheerleader for the boom?

Mr. Frank McDonald

In what way? Does the Deputy mean in terms of property-related stuff?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I think the media became dependent to a substantial extent on revenue from advertising which was related both to property and to recruitment. Every Friday, there would be a huge supplement with loads of ads for jobs for chief executives and God knows what else. Every Thursday, one would have the property supplement. At one stage, The Irish Times property supplement was so large it was in two sections. There was a 12-page opening section and then a 48-page follow-up section as there was so much going on. It became a major revenue earner for the media, including The Irish Times. As I said, whatever about perceptions of this leading to a cheerleader situation for the property boom, we were offsetting any such perception by carrying relatively critical pieces about how Dublin was developing and other issues that were the downsides of the boom.

Are journalists aware of the amount of advertising coming in from a particular sector like that?

Mr. Frank McDonald

In my experience and in my own case, I could not care less to be honest. Yes, it was good the newspaper was getting revenue but it would not have influenced me in any way. I do not believe it would have influenced most other journalists in any way.

In Mr. McDonald’s experience, was there ever an approach from an editor to him or others asking them to be a little more sensitive, could they try this or do that?

Mr. Frank McDonald

In 1994 I wrote an article about the phenomenon of the shoebox flats being built in Dublin under the section 23 tax incentive scheme. It took me a few months to get that into the newspaper and not into the property supplement but into the arts section. It was fairly in your face in terms of what it was saying about the quality - rather the lack of quality - of the apartments then being produced in Dublin.

Would Mr. McDonald have been aware in his investigative journalism over the years of any entertainment of editorial staff by property companies?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes, that happened regularly.

How did it manifest itself?

Mr. Frank McDonald

One would be invited to lunches, launches or whatever.

A Champions League final?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I presume that happened as well. I personally never got tickets for a match.

We will not be speculative on this.

Or other such events?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I never got tickets for a match out of any of them.

Is there a code of ethics in The Irish Times for journalists in terms of their interactions with politicians?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes.

How would it deal with interaction with the property sector?

Mr. Frank McDonald

The Irish Times ethics code in the past certainly included a provision that no journalist could accept a trip - a junket as we would call it in journalistic parlance - from anybody that was not the Government or a Government agency. In other words, one did not take offers from the private sector.

It had to be a State-sponsored job then.

Mr. Frank McDonald

In effect, yes.

Was Mr. McDonald aware of any collaboration between newspaper publications and the property sector on, say, housing schemes in terms of shared profit or some other such benefit that would be derived directly, other than the payment of the fee for the advertising, as a result of progress in the sales of a development?

Mr. Frank McDonald

I am not personally aware of that.

Thank you Senator.

Just to develop on from Deputy John Paul Phelan and Senator MacSharry on the general coverage of how the property sector was doing at the time, particularly in regard to residential development. Was it at the time developing or not developing a sense of anxiety among prospective purchasers, particularly first-time buyers, about getting access to the property ladder?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Do you mean were we promoting this?

What impact was the general coverage having on prospective property buyers, first-time buyers and so forth?

Mr. Frank McDonald

In a property bubble situation, everyone thinks it will continue going up in spectacular leaps from year to year. Some years there was a 20% increase in property values, etc. Naturally, for anyone trying to get on to the ladder, as it became known, that would have induced almost a sense of panic. First-time buyers were panicked into buying at ridiculously inflated asset values like €450,000 for a two-bedroom flat for example. One of the problems we have in this country - it was certainly the case during the boom - is that we accept far too many things as normal that are not normal.

This was the narrative at the time.

Mr. Frank McDonald

Yes and that people needed to step back but they could not step back for some reason because they were all caught up in it.

One final question brings us full circle. The purpose of this inquiry is not just to look at the past but to look into the future and see what lessons can be drawn. With regard to my earlier engagement about how the planning laws deal with one-off housing, it is commonly noted that the Irish people have a love affair with property. There is a high percentage of home ownership compared to other similar countries. Was that the case and does it still hold despite the crash? Given that this is in our DNA, to use the term Mr. McDonald used earlier, how might this be responded to best to protect the public interest in the future?

Mr. Frank McDonald

It is undoubtedly true that we value owning our own home, initially with the aid of a mortgage but ultimately a person eventually becomes the owner. One of the nicest letters I ever received was from the EBS saying that my loan was paid off. That happened two years ago and I thought that it could not be happening at a better time. The devotion to the idea of property ownership is related to the cultural and historical legacy of Ireland, and history of dispossession and fear of dispossession, which is something that makes the rental market such a minority thing. It is quite normal in Switzerland, Germany and other continental countries for people to rent rather than buy because it is more convenient for them and they do not fear being thrown onto the street. Here, there is a fear that people have no security if they rent so they need to buy. As to what can be done about it, we are talking about a cultural shift, which takes time.

Has the cultural shift taken place?

Mr. Frank McDonald

Not yet, but I live in hope that it will.

I thank Mr. McDonald for his participation today in an informative and invaluable meeting that has added to our understanding of the factors leading to the banking crisis in Ireland. We will excuse the witnesses and I propose we suspend until 2.30 p.m. This afternoon, there will be two modules dealing with the nexus phase of the inquiry and preparing for the media modules next week. I propose that our meeting runs no later than 5 p.m. and we will finish before that if possible.

Sitting suspended at 2.03 p.m. and resumed in private session at 2.30 p.m. The joint committee adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 25 March 2015.
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