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Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis debate -
Wednesday, 6 May 2015

Nexus Phase

Bank of Ireland - Mr. Richie Boucher

I propose that we go into public session, is that agreed? Agreed. As we have a quorum, the Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis is now in public session. Can I remind members and those in public Gallery to ensure that their mobile devices are switched off?

Todays' session 1 is a public hearing discussion with Mr. Richie Boucher, group chief executive of Bank of Ireland. In doing so, I would like to welcome everyone to the 23rd public hearing of the Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis. Today we continue our hearings with senior bank executives who had roles during and after the crisis. This morning we will hear from Mr. Richie Boucher, group chief executive, Bank of Ireland. Mr. Boucher joined Bank of Ireland as chief executive of corporate banking from the Royal Bank of Scotland in December 2003. He was appointed chief executive of retail financial services Ireland in January 2005. He has been the group chief executive officer since February 2009. He is the past president of the Institute of Banking in Ireland and of the Irish Banking Federation. Mr. Boucher you are welcome before the inquiry this morning.

Before I hear from the witness, I wish to advise the witness that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If you are directed by the Chairman to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. I would remind members and those present that there are currently criminal proceedings ongoing and further criminal proceedings are scheduled during the lifetime of the inquiry, which overlap with the subject matter of the inquiry. The utmost caution should therefore be taken not to prejudice those proceedings. Members of the public are reminded that photography is prohibited in the committee room. To assist the smooth running of the inquiry, we will display certain documents on the screens here in the committee room. For those sitting in the Gallery, those documents will be displayed on the screens to your left and right. Members of the public and journalists are reminded that these documents are confidential and should not publish any of the documents so displayed.

The witness has been directed to attend this meeting of the Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis and you have been furnished with booklets of core documents. These are before the committee and will be relied upon in questioning and form part of the evidence of the inquiry. So with that said, if I can now ask the clerk to administer the oath to Mr. Boucher.

The following witness was sworn in by the Clerk to the Committee:
Mr. Richie Boucher, Group Chief Executive, Bank of Ireland.

Okay, with that said, I now invite Mr. Boucher to make his opening remarks. Mr. Boucher.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Chairman, members of the joint committee my name is Richie Boucher. I'm currently the group chief executive officer of Bank of Ireland Group, a position I've held since February 2009. From January 2006 to February 2009 I was chief executive of Bank of Ireland's retail financial services Ireland division. From March 2004 to December 2005, I was chief executive of Bank of Ireland's corporate banking business. The inquiry directed me to attend the committee and be available to it with respect to certain themes in the context of the three roles I hold, or held, with the group for the relevant dates. I was also required to provide a written statement in relation to those themes. The Chairman's opening remarks to the inquiry in December 2014 identified that the purpose of the inquiry was to identify mistakes which were made, to learn from these and to avoid their recurrence. I've provided the inquiry with a comprehensive written statement and have provided documents within, and not within, the public domain relating to my written submission.

Chairman, may I suggest that if yourself and the committee feel that it would be the most productive use of your time, rather than me continuing on a prepared a statement I could move straight to questions and answers.

Okay, Mr. Boucher, and just to inform you as well, the committee will be publishing your statement in full so we can take that as being read this morning, with your agreement.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes, Chairman.

Okay. Thank you. Deputy Murphy, you have 25 minutes.

Thank you, Chairman, and thank you, Mr. Boucher, you're very welcome. I'd like to begin, if I may, with the BOI group liquidity committee minutes from 29 September 2008. Your reference is BOI - C3b, pages 19 to 21. Do you have that document?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I am familiar with the document.

Familiar with the document. Okay, great. That meeting was the day of the 29th. Can you remember when it was convened and how long it lasted?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I can't remember exactly when it was convened but I believe it was the late afternoon, I think somewhere between about 4 p.m. and 5.30 p.m. I think it went on for about 25 to 30 minutes. My memory of that was influenced by the fact that I had discussions straight afterwards with colleagues of mine in our retail division ... so it was late evening, late afternoon Deputy.

Okay, thank you. And it lasted for about 25 or 30 minutes?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think so, yes.

And you were informed by Mr. Goggin that a meeting had been arranged in Government Buildings later that evening on the possibility of a guarantee being provided for all borrowings by Irish institutions, and that's noted in the minute. Did you know Bank of Ireland's position at that time in relation to customers' deposits, interbank borrowings or debt securities issued?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think the focus was primarily on the ... what was happening in the ... interbank markets and with the funding. I think the minutes of the meeting and previous minutes of previous meetings ... if I could just say these were quite informal meetings ... it was really updates ... would have shown that we were funding reasonably well, we were rolling over in the interbank markets but the rolling over was becoming much more short dated as it was happening. We had some pressure on corporate deposits but the retail deposits were reasonable and the UK deposit base was relatively strong.

The minutes indicate that Mr. Goggin was aware that the guarantee might include Bank of Ireland so was anyone asked to pull together the relevant information as to what would be covered under such a guarantee?

Mr. Richie Boucher

No, not to my recollection and ... no.

Okay. The minutes also state that a draft guarantee was prepared by the committee ... according to the note of the meeting it says that. But Mr. Goggin has told us in evidence that this is incorrect, that there was no draft of such a guarantee, or listed institutions that it should cover, prepared for Mr. Goggin for use at a meeting in Government Buildings. Is this correct?

Mr. Richie Boucher

That is my recollection as well, Deputy.

And was there any discussion at this meeting at all using a piece of paper or a note or something around which your discussions were based?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think if I can just give a context. Mr. Goggin came in I think towards the end of the meeting. He said that he was ... himself and some senior bankers ... were attending a meeting in Government Buildings. He said that one of the items which would be ... discussion was some form of a guarantee. But the meeting, to my recollection, kind of broke up ... as I said earlier these were quite informal, we were just gathering together, updating each other on what was happening. It wasn't a decision-making forum. But I have no recollection of a guarantee. I think that's subsequently corroborated by the fact that one of the businesses for which I was responsible, licensed subsidiary ICS, had been omitted from the list of guaranteed institutions and that was causing some problems for customers in ICS and we had to engage with the authorities in the following week to try and get ICS included.

Just tell me a bit, if you could, how minutes are drafted. Was someone in the room to take minutes?

Mr. Richie Boucher

There was kind of ... again, it was a ... it wasn't a committee which required a quorum or that, but there was generally someone who was taking it if there was action points-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

-----but we were taking, also, our own notes of our own action points.

And before minutes like these would be circulated, would someone sign off on them? Would someone check them?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Would the ... from what ... first of all, I should say, Deputy, I had not seen that particular document until the inquiry. It is a ... it's headed "A draft", so I've no recollection of it being circulated to me as a draft and certainly we ... my understanding is my colleagues could not find a non-draft version.

Also in the minutes from that meeting it says that you stated that the group should make the point, wherever possible, that it did not request the guarantee and did not require it. Can you just elaborate on that point? What do you mean? And make the point to whom? And was this point about fact or about presentation?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Deputy, if I could point out, I think there may be some confusion. I think there's been a copying of a minute from 30 September. The back page of that minute is attached to one of 29 September. I can provide to the committee the actual minutes of the 29th and the 30th, both in draft form. So the comment I made was on 30 September. I recall that comment. It was the day after the guarantee. And there were particular issues which were emerging that certain banks, we were aware, were starting to say that it was Bank of Ireland had asked for the guarantee for themselves. I was at a meeting of the Irish Bankers Federation that morning and the meeting had been requested to be ... in particular, to focus on things that ... like we were not permitted to market the guarantee and there was a request from the Irish Bankers Federation. One or two of the people from a couple of other banks had mentioned that, "We heard you guys went in and asked for a guarantee for yourselves." And we were hearing from some of our dealers that that rumour was going around in the market. I was annoyed and also I felt it was appropriate and necessary that we made it clear in the market that Bank of Ireland hadn't gone in and asked for a guarantee for itself.

Sorry, can I just invite you to come a bit closer to the microphone?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I beg your pardon, Chairman. I'm sorry.

Yes, yes, just closer to the microphone. Thank you.

Mr. Richie Boucher

I'm sorry. Chairman, would you like me to repeat anything I said?

No, no, you're fine, you're fine.

Just to clarify that, Mr. Boucher ... and if we accept that that minute is from a meeting of the 30th, did the bank need a guarantee on the night of the 29th?

Mr. Richie Boucher

We didn't feel that we needed a guarantee in terms of the pressures we were facing on the markets. I think one of the things that we felt, and subsequently proved to have been correct, is that we had very significant collateral ourselves. So we had about 50% of our assets were in mortgages, Irish and UK mortgages. So we had quite a lot of eligible collateral but I can't ... I can't say in three-four weeks' time, if the markets had continued to be very tough ... you know, if events continued ... in the absence of a guarantee, would we have needed one, I can't say that. On the night of the ... on the afternoon of the 29th, night of the 29th, Bank of Ireland didn't feel that it needed a guarantee in its own right. I think that's also corroborated by the minutes of other meetings that we provided. We didn't identify a guarantee.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Our focus and engagement, in particular, in that period of time ... I wasn't involved directly in the engagement but there was engagement with the Central Bank and others to try to ensure that the ECB and other authorities would be widening collateral criteria, and that was our focus.

Thank you. Can we just turn to your statement briefly then on pages 8 and 9, if I may? Because in that you recount some details then from later on on that evening when Mr. Goggin goes to Government Buildings. You were asked to remain in Bank of Ireland. Is that correct?

Mr. Richie Boucher

No, I decided to ... I think there was a number of us decided to stay. We have to remember it was the night of the 29th. There was an awful lot going on. Amongst other things, one of my jobs was to ensure, for example, that our branches were properly staffed. We were not putting through any IT changes. We were making sure our ATMs were heavily loaded, because if there had been an incident which would have perceived that we had a lack of cash, that could have been very difficult. I was organising that staff would ... who were on part time would come into branches, etc. So I was there because it was necessary for my role as head of retail Ireland, but also, obviously, there was a lot going on. The TARP was going through Congress and obviously we were looking at our exposures to US banks and our exposures in investment markets.

We gathered together ... myself, head of strategy, the chief financial officer, chief risk officer, the head of wholesale markets and some other colleagues gathered in a meeting room we have in the executive floor and we were awaiting communication from Mr. Goggin as to what was happening.

And he phoned you three times. Is that correct?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Directly into the conference room, that is my memory. Three times.

Did you receive any personal calls or direct calls?

Mr. Richie Boucher

From Mr. Goggin, not directly. I know that Mr. Goggin was also in communication with some of our colleagues at a more middle management level on certain technical and other issues.

Okay. The second phone call, I think, according to your statement advised of a systemic guarantee. Can you recall at what point in the evening this was?

Mr. Richie Boucher

We were asked ... we were asked about ...to provide ... if we could provide support to Anglo Irish. From memory that was about 11 p.m., 11.30 p.m. We had a credit committee to decide the basis that we would be willing to provide that. Mr. Goggin participated in that. It was a formal credit committee because, obviously, it was a large exposure. Then Mr. Goggin came back, from memory Deputy, I would say around about 45 minutes, maybe an hour later. So slightly after midnight, I cannot remember exactly, but around about that time, to advise us that the Government had decided there was a guarantee for all of the banks. And at that stage then, you know, there were questions about were subsidiaries included, etc., what was included, what was not. And a couple of our colleagues, including our chief law officer, were asked to just confirm the licensed subsidiaries we had, i.e. licensed depositors and all that for inclusion in the discussions that Mr. Goggin was having.

Just my final question at this point-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

If I could just say, my clear understanding is that there was a systemic guarantee.

My final question then is: was Mr. Goggin aware of the bank's total exposure to this point when you were informed of a systemic guarantee that would cover your bank? Did he know the full position of the bank in that meeting?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I must presume he did, yes. We had been looking at on an ongoing basis, a daily basis, we had been looking at our liabilities in different markets, etc. I presume as the chief executive he would have been aware of that.

Including the subordinated liabilities.

Mr. Richie Boucher

I suspect so. I think we were all probably slightly more focused on those liabilities which were potentially leaving the bank but I presume he was, yes.

I will move on if I may, Mr. Boucher?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes, sorry, Deputy.

I want to go back to 2003 when you joined the bank. You moved into corporate banking. Is that correct?

Mr. Richie Boucher

That's correct.

The bank was traditionally viewed as a conservative bank, as Mr. Goggin stated himself. Would you have agreed that the bank was a more conservative bank than other lenders in the Irish market at the time?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes. I mean, I had ... when I joined the bank I felt there were certain gaps in where the bank was. It had been .... yes, the Bank of Ireland had an image of being a relatively conservative bank, yes.

Did the culture of the bank change during your time there?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I am not conscious of they had like some kind of step change, but I think over a period it did evolve over a five to six year period, yes.

Did you ever feel that the bank was under pressure to change its model or its business, given the apparently rapid success of banks like Anglo Irish Bank?

Mr. Richie Boucher

No. I think there was ... For our businesses, you know, Anglo wasn't ... I mean Anglo was a competitor, but it wasn't a competitor across the range of businesses we had. What I was conscious of, even though I wasn't directly interacting with the markets and investors, albeit I met them, was a perception of Anglo ... so like, not a direct competitor, well, it was a competitor but not across all of our businesses. Certainly, there was a market perception that Anglo, their price earnings multiple, i.e. what the market was prepared to pay for their stock as a multiple of their shares, was higher than the bank's. We were hearing that they had a much cleaner business model, that the management were very focused, that they had a great visibility on things like their pipeline of deals, etc. So it was ... the Anglo thing was more about a market perception rather than, I think, interactions and individual parts of our business, with the exception of our property lending activities, at the higher end.

I'll come to that then because in July 2001, that was before you were in the bank, the group risk committee set up a trial initiative for specialised property financing unit within business banking and the purpose was to provide higher risk higher return property transactions. Now in January 2003 when you were there - and sorry the reference for this is BOI - B1, page 55 - in 2003, in January, it was recommend to the committee that the initiative be established on a permanent basis with a confirmed limit of €100 million, the objective of it being to allow business banking compete more effectively in particular with Anglo Irish Bank. Is this an example of Bank of Ireland changing its business practice to compete with Anglo?

Mr. Richie Boucher

If I could just point out to the Deputy that I didn't join the bank until December 2003.

I beg your pardon.

Mr. Richie Boucher

But if I could expand, when I joined their corporate bank there was confusion in the bank about property lending. I found that the corporate bank there were certain structures. There was a lack of focus on, say, family owned, large mid-corporate businesses. There was confusion about responsibilities for different sectors and I recommended to the group that we establish within corporate and we bring into corporate a lot more of the higher volume and certain types of more risky lending that was going on in retail Ireland to bring it into corporate, where we thought there was a greater focus and skill set. So that unit that you referred to was brought into corporate.

This happened in November 2004, the dedicated property unit. Is that your recollection?

Mr. Richie Boucher

It would have been yes, like I think the second half. I made recommendations to changes of the structure in the first half.

We have a minute on this and it's in BOI - B2, page 23, and it is from a meeting from the 9 November 2004 and it talks about this establishment of a dedicated property unit. The rationale it gives in that minute is that, "In the past five years we have under performed in this top end market, which has been dominated by Banks with specialist property units, most notably Anglo Irish Bank". So is this an example of Bank of Ireland changing its business practice to compete with Anglo?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think it would be an example of us bringing more focus, probably more marketing to it, whether it was Anglo or Bank of Scotland, yes. I think I'd probably just mention again, Deputy, you know, we restructured the corporate bank at that time. We had a lack of focus on family owned, large businesses. I brought in people from Ulster Bank to specialise that and I with the ... I recommended a restructure of the group and that's what we did but, certainly, we did compete with Anglo at the higher end ... corporate property market.

And this was your initiative this new unit?

Mr. Richie Boucher

The restructuring of corporate was my recommendation, which was a total restructuring of corporate to focus on different areas.

And did you continue to have a role once you moved into head of retail?

Mr. Richie Boucher

In that, no, I didn't, the corporate was responsible for corporate lending and that type of activity.

But in terms of the dedicated property unit were you still involved?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Allow me to give ... No, I didn't have a direct role. I was a member of credit committees where large transactions came to the credit committee so I had a role in either the declining or authorising large transactions that had been recommended by business units.

Did you personally manage relationships then with clients who had exposures over €30 million?

Mr. Richie Boucher

No.

You didn't manage any relationships with any developers?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I would have relationships with customers across the group so I would have been involved in marketing or meetings with customers as the head of ... more in corporate really. In retail, I wouldn't have. So, in corporate, yes, I would have met customers.

So you would have managed relationships with -----

Mr. Richie Boucher

I didn't, I wouldn't ... so the structure, Deputy, was that ... you know, we had relationship managers who would report into sectoral or unit heads and for our large customers, I would have been involved in meetings with those customers from a marketing or to give ... or if it was felt it was necessary to give the customer certain feedback on things that we couldn't give.

Would you ever have helped large customers in other transactions, ones that were perhaps not with your bank or outside of banking?

Mr. Richie Boucher

From time to time customers would ring me and look for advice.

Okay. For example, would you have ever written in support of a planning application for a large customer?

Mr. Richie Boucher

As a matter of record I did, but that was not in support of a transaction we were involved in.

No. Do you think that's appropriate?

Mr. Richie Boucher

No.

You don't think it's appropriate?

Mr. Richie Boucher

No, it was a mistake.

Okay. On your appointment as group CEO in 2009, a significant shareholder of the bank said that you must have been responsible for fatal errors of judgment, including advancing loans to developers on the strength of over stated land values and insufficient security. Were you?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I was member of a ... I was a member of a management team that was involved in making mistakes, including to property.

On the point that was made at the time in 2009, do you accept that there was an impression that you were too close to certain clients in the bank?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I don't accept that.

Mr. Richie Boucher

People write all sorts of letters. Ultimately, if I do have a recollection, when I was appointed as chief executive, I went before the shareholders of the bank and 99% of the shareholders of the bank voted for me. Certain shareholders didn't.

Okay. In correlation with the new unit, which was targeted at the main players, as it was described in the minute, in the property sector, in mortgage lending, growth moved from €27.6 billion to €60.8 billion between 2001 and 2008, and if we go to reference document BOI - B2, page 10, we'll see that policy changes ... there was a number of policy changes for mortgage lending at the time. Income multiples changed, loan-to-value policies changed, 1st Start mortgages were introduced, and more flexibility was allowed to seasoned multi-property borrowers. Do you think these changes were appropriate, and is this an example of you changing your business practices to chase the competition?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes, again, I would point out that a lot of data that you referred to was prior to my joining the Bank of Ireland, but with ... as we look now, in hindsight, that visioning of some of our criteria ultimately proved to be costly for ... for us, for our customers, and for our other stakeholders.

In July 2005, you introduced 100% mortgages. And the reason that's stated in BOI - B2, page 17, was "...in response to moves by key competitors, First Active, Ulster Bank, and PTSB....". Again, is this an example of you chasing ... changing your business practices to chase the competition?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Again, that was before I joined the retail division, but I would then add that I joined the retail division in 2006 so I could have stopped it.

Were you on the credit committee in July 2005?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I wasn't on the group risk policy committee in ... I joined the group risk policy committee in February 2006 as a member of the group executive.

Mr. Richie Boucher

But I would ... the 100% mortgages was wrong.

100% mortgages was wrong. Thank you. Concerns were expressed by the Financial Regulator in ... as early as July 2003, before you were at the bank, and the reference is BOI - B1, page 67. They did an examination and the examination raises questions about the maintenance of lending standards in your institution and about your ongoing monitoring, management and control of risk in relation to residential mortgage credit. Can you explain to me how the Financial Regulator can express a concern like that following an examination and then, in 2004 and 2005, the bank might continue to actually relax its policies and standards in relation to mortgage lending?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Again, it was prior to my involvement, but there was interaction ... we've also disclosed to the committee other documents which would have been our ... the bank at that time's answers to that. But, ultimately, like I've said, Deputy, whereas I think we probably followed the market too much in relaxing our standards, yes, I would concur with that. Whether or not it was taken prior to my arrival or after my arrival, the decisions we took were wrong.

But in making those decisions, or at least being aware of the decisions, and being in the bank then subsequently, were you aware that the Financial Regulator had been expressing concerns, or what ... whether there was concerns?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I wasn't aware ... I wasn't aware of the specific concerns there. I was aware that ... when the 100% mortgages were coming, there was interaction between several of my colleagues and the regulator at that time. The bank was uncomfortable with this market practice. The bank sought engagement as to whether or not the regulator felt that they could do something about it, but again I would note that, and I was part of that team, if we had felt so very, very strongly, we could have not participated in that part of the market.

Okay. You came onto the board in 2006. Do you think there was an appropriate level of reporting to the board on the concentration risk being faced by Bank of Ireland?

Mr. Richie Boucher

No, there was not.

Mr. Richie Boucher

No.

And what role did the group credit committee and other committees like that have in terms of taking over control, if you like, of the bank?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Well, the board had decided to delegate to the group risk policy committee and the group credit committee certain decision-making powers. If I look now at the level of reporting, understanding the board has, of credit risk develop, concentration risks, a wide range of risks, the decision-making process that's involved in our risk assessment, if I compare our ICAAP document of 2013, which I provided to committee, to what was provided in the past in the board, there was ... the board didn't seek, and the board was not provided with, a sufficient level of information to make informed decisions on the risks that were being taken.

Why wasn't the board provided with this information?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I don't think it was sought ... I mean, I don't know if there was a conscious decision not to seek it but there were gaps ... I don't think that our information was so lax but if I compare what it is now to ... compared to it, it was light and day ... oh, sorry, night and day.

So was it insufficient oversight then on the part of the board, is that how you'd describe it?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes I think so.

Okay. So when we then look-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

And I was a member of that board.

Yes. But as a member of the board and also then, you know, a senior manager, how did you reconcile that position of information not being sought or information not being provided?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think it was ... I mean, practices have changed, policies have changed, the world has changed very substantially as to what it is now and what it was then. I think that people genuinely felt that they were getting sufficient information. As it transpired, they weren't. So I don't think there was a conscious decision not to seek information. I think that there was less ... there was less focus on the understanding of risk. I think that was absolutely clear.

And the time you were on the board, you were also on the group risk credit committee-----

Last question now, Deputy.

-----group risk committee?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes. In terms of sequence, Deputy, I was on the ... I joined the group risk policy ... I joined the group credit committee in December or January 2004, as head of corporate banking. I joined the ... that is a committee of about 24 people which would look at transactions - on a weekly basis - over certain limits and levels. I joined the group risk policy committee which was a policy committee when I became a member of the group executive, and that was in February 2006 and I joined the board of the bank in October 2006.

You were involved with the group risk policy committee from 2006 and then on the board as well, subsequently, in 2006?

Mr. Richie Boucher

You know, from-----

Deputy, you're out of time.

Mr. Richie Boucher

In ... In the-----

I'll bring you back in, you're out of time.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Within the same year, yes.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman.

Just to clear up on that issue there before I bring in Deputy McGrath. On the board, are you on record this morning, Mr. Boucher, saying that the board were not seeking that type of information?

Mr. Richie Boucher

No, I don't think it ... I don't think that they were ... that level of information was either provided or sought as sufficiently as it should be.

Which brings me to the other question. Would it not have been the case that it would have been a responsibility, or not, of senior experienced staff to actually bring that information to the board?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think if I look back on where we are now and where we were, I think people believed they were providing sufficient information. I don't ... and I believe the board thought they were getting sufficient information. As it transpired, they clearly weren't.

Okay, thank you. Deputy McGrath.

Thank you, Chair. You're very welcome, Mr. Boucher. Thank you for your attendance. Can I just start by asking you, during your three years as CEO of retail financial services Ireland within the bank, what involvement would you have had during those three years in the lending to the land and property development sector?

Mr. Richie Boucher

It wouldn't have been a very large part of my job. We were lending to land and property, it was done within ... it was a component of the lending ... too high a component of the lending in business banking. So I had six or seven business units which reported in to me, so it was done ... the-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

It was done ... I had a sanctioning authority. So deals of a certain size which were recommended by a credit function ... I had a sanctioning authority, so I could approve of or-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

-----or decline. And-----

But the big loans-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

But then ... and then I was a member of the group credit committee where larger transactions would've come from different business units.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Typically corporate-----

They were the direct responsibility of corporate that had been ... that had been moved to the new unit within corporate, in terms of land and property-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

But just to confirm, Deputy, like, there was smaller property lending done within business banking, but the larger transactions were-----

Okay. Was it up to a certain value, was there a threshold with which it moved across to corporate?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Roughly about ten ... about between €10 million and €15 million, however, if there were certain connections where it made much more sense for it to be in retail, it would be done.

Mr. Richie Boucher

It was part of a wider customer connection.

Okay. Can I ask, Mr. Boucher, how does the bank monitor the performance and increased risk of loans involved by allowing interest roll-up facilities?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Primarily done through the committee structures. So on a transaction-by-transaction basis.

Okay. Can I take you to the group risk policy committee meeting of 17 April 2008? So it's at BOI - B2, Vol. 1, page 99.

So, at this meeting, Mr. Boucher, there was a proposal made that the limit would be increased by €100 million in respect of lending to the landbank book within business banking, ROI, and that was opposed by the head of group credit at the time, who declined to support the proposal, but it was voted through by majority decision at that meeting, and you were to be given the power of overseeing the distribution of that €100 million. Can you recall that meeting?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I can recall basic points of it. I can't recall it all but I can recall basic issues if you-----

And can you understand what the rationale was for overruling the head of group credit?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes. What I recall is that there was a discussion, it was quite a long discussion. It was noted that whereas the original proposition to lend it for a certain purpose, it then evolved during the meeting. So during the course of the meeting, it was then discussed that one of our issues was going to be finishing out sites or overseeing where ... if we were looking for, to get out of certain positions, and then it was ... it then evolved that the limit would be used where it was to mitigate or reduce risk and I can't remember whether I volunteered or I was requested to ensure that the spirit of that was done, that it was to reduce and mitigate risk. The head of group credit still felt that, notwithstanding that that was a different proposal, as a matter of principle he didn't want limits on property lending increased.

Yes. And just to read an extract from that meeting - the business banking ROI, "highlighted that customers are seeing significant opportunities to acquire land at relatively good prices and the Group needs to be positioned to support the better clients". So this was in April 2008, well beyond the peak at this stage, and the bank was, apparently, speculating on the value of land at the time and effectively overruled the head of group credit to extend additional loans to land speculation.

Mr. Richie Boucher

As I've outlined in my answer to the question that you put to me earlier, Deputy, what happened in that committee meeting was an evolution of the purpose, which was to mitigate risk. It was decided that we would not take on new customers, and I was asked to ... I was asked or I volunteered to ensure the spirit of it was ... it would mitigate risk. And that would include finishing out sites, or having sites bought by other people but it was our own ... but we had our own land bank and to finish it out. And I either volunteered, or I was asked to oversee that, which would be unusual, and to reflect the debate that had taken place in the committee, where it wouldn't be provided to new customers.

And was it the correct decision to extend additional lending to land speculation in April 2008?

Mr. Richie Boucher

As it transpired, the limit was used for the purpose, which was ... which was to mitigate risk and existing exposures, including, like I said-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

-----putting infrastructure into sites and that to enhance their value, because we saw a downturn coming, we didn't see the extent of the downturn. As has been demonstrated as we transferred loans to NAMA, the haircuts we had were different, partly because we had less unfinished property.

And would it have been a common occurrence for the head of group credit to be overruled by the risk committee?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Not often, no. I mean, not often, I think, but there was debate and challenge but not often.

At that point the lending limit in business banking was €2 billion in respect of landbank, the landbank limit was €2 billion, and at that stage it was at €1.95 billion. And it's noted in the minutes that without any new deals, that book is generating an additional €50 million in exposure every six months as interest roll-up facilities accumulate into principal balances. So without even extending any new loans, the limit would have been breached by virtue of interest just continuing to roll up on existing credit facilities.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes. And that was one of the points that was noted and discussed, that notwithstanding a limit, there was going to be a problem in monitoring in general, so that was one of the things that was noted.

Mr. Richie Boucher

And it was ... I think correctly brought out in the minutes.

Sure.

As you know Mr. Boucher, we have had sight of Project Atlas, or certain extracts from it at least in BOI, Vol. 2, pages 27-31, and we've gone through the figures recently with Mr. Goggin. Do you believe now, in hindsight, that there was an over-dependence on lending on one particular sector? And an over concentration of risk by the bank in land, property development and construction?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Absolutely.

Mr. Richie Boucher

It's hard to be...kind of ... with mathematical precision about it Deputy, but we certainly were over-exposed. We believed that as a proportion of our group balance sheet, that was manageable. We believed that it was diversified so there was a bigger ... a bigger proportion outside Ireland. We didn't take sufficient recognition of the potential correlation between property markets in Ireland and the UK and the rest of the world. And in our submission to the European Commission as to one of the mistakes that Bank of Ireland made, we said that we had too heavy of an exposure. I think we took too much comfort from proportion rather than absolute hard limits and now we have hard limits.

So are you of the view that the issue was the quantum of lending rather than the proportion? It was the actual nominal figures involved.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes, I think you can be very ... ratios and percentages can become ... you can have an over-dependence on mathematical formulas in relation to dependence. Absolute amount of money is what gets you into trouble, notwithstanding that it could be a big proportion or a small proportion. You could have a small proportion of a sector that goes really bad and you get ... you take big hits.

And can you put your finger on the single most important reason why, such a mistake was made in lending too much money to one risky sector?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I don't think there was one singular decision that even got us into that position. I think it was an evolution over ten to 15 years of very strong economic conditions, a sector that was seen to perform. So I can't say, and I have obviously thought about this carefully and I think about it in my current role ...in like the six years in my current role. Is there one particular time or point in time when... you know, one makes a deliberate decision to change gear or change a direction? No, I don't, I think it was more evolved over a long period of time, Deputy.

What is an appropriate loan-to-deposit ratio for a bank of your size?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think if we look at for us... we look at a wide range of ratios, Deputy. Loan to deposit, but we also look very much at liquidity-coverage ratio, which means your coverage if, you know, you are locked out of the markets for 90 days, 180 days, 30 days. So we have scenarios. But I would feel that about 110% to 115%. But I think again, if we come to ratios, again there can be confusion. I look at it in very simple terms from our perspective and that is the way that I express it and then the ratios follow. For our business model, our capital, all our shareholders' capital plus customer deposits, should equate to customer loans. And then, because you take customer deposits you have liquid assets, which are Government bonds or very highly rated assets. And they should be financed in the wholesale markets and in the wholesale markets, they should be financed by different programmes, so a variety of programmes that ... so, I think it reflects both your business model. So we are a retail commercial bank, our businesses... our model now is our businesses must be self-sufficient in funding or have a very high margin and a very high quality of liquid assets-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

----- so that they can be funded on the wholesale markets.

And what was the rationale in allowing that ratio, loan to deposit, going as high as 176%?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think there was a belief in the markets at that time. We were not an outlier, is that securitisation markets were an ability to grow assets outside your natural home territories ... we didn't have a natural deposit base. Securitisation was seen to be a very appropriate and good model. I think we grew ... my personal belief Deputy and there would be a number... my personal belief is the single biggest mistake we made as a bank was to grow our UK mortgage business without a natural deposit base. To grow it in securitisations and there is a particular feature.

Sterling is a natural short currency, so it is not a currency that there is ... big volumes. So, as it transpired and as it became apparent, the sterling securitisation was really being financed by the dollar markets, in particular by US mutual funds. So, when you had the crisis developing, the US mutual funds started to pull back very quickly and the sterling securitisation markets locked down very quickly and we were badly exposed. So that reliance on securitisation, notwithstanding that a lot of people were doing it ... it seemed to be a new business model. It strayed too far away from traditional banking where you must finance your asset base by natural customer deposits, so it was a bad mistake.

On page 8 of your opening statement you make reference to a meeting on the weekend of 6-7 September 2008, where, at the request of the Central Bank, a colleague and yourself attended a series of meetings in the Central Bank to discuss potential liquidity support from BOI and AIB for INBS. And you say, "I recall being shocked and shaken by the lack of information available to the executives of INBS and the Central Bank of Ireland on the liquidity position of INBS". "Shocked and shaken" - why Mr. Boucher?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I would say that weekend was a weekend when, on a personal basis, I realised the extent of the issues in the system were very, very serious. I was ... I believe ... I can't remember exactly ... our chief executive got a phone call from the Central Bank asking if we could provide ... if we could have people available to the meeting ... to a series of meetings to discuss support for Irish Nation ... sorry ... a building society and the chief executive asked myself and ... obviously because I was at retail in Ireland and had experience ... and also a colleague of mine who was head of our wholesale division and would've had a good understanding of treasury markets, etc. Prior to the meeting, I asked my chief executive whether we were provided with any information to help us analyse the problem before we went to the meeting. I went to the meeting ... it was primarily ... the meetings primarily took place on the Sunday of the 7th.

Can you advise who was at the meeting? From memory?

Mr. Richie Boucher

There were various officials from the Financial Regulator, including Mr. Neary, there was the company secretary and what was described as the group treasurer of the building society. The chief executive wasn't available.

And was a specific request made of Bank of Ireland at that meeting to provide support for INBS at that stage?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I remember a series of meetings where we in particular asked what was the problem, you know, what was the roll-down, what was the cash flows, what was their market position - things that we would've in the back of our head with the bank. There were pieces of paper being flown ... thrown around the place. There was no coherent position ... of the problem we were being asked to solve at that moment or the extent of the problem going forward. I have to admit at some stage I said to my colleague, "We should leave this meeting". We said, "We can't carry on this discussion". So, I was extremely surprised and shocked to be honest about it. I'm not saying that we were perfect but the lack of understanding of the problem ... during the course of the afternoon it was more and more teased out as to, you know, what may or may not be the potential liquidity requirement. Eventually, we were asked to look at, from memory, I think a quantum of around about €4 billion and we fed back to the regulator that we weren't comfortable, that wasn't an accurate picture of what was needed, but even if it was, that we wouldn't be in a position to provide that - we were very uncomfortable taking on an exposure to that entity.

And these meeting were over two successive days?

Mr. Richie Boucher

My memory, Deputy, is, they were ... primarily took place on the Sunday. There may have been a preliminary meeting but my memory is more on the Sunday which was the 7th.

And what conclusion did you draw from that meeting?

Mr. Richie Boucher

That-----

Was the gravity of the situation------

Mr. Richie Boucher

-----the system-----

-----facing INBS becoming clear to you at that stage?

Mr. Richie Boucher

-----the system was in much bigger trouble than I had envisaged. There was a lack of understanding or information of the liquidity position of individual businesses by the businesses themselves and the regulator. That was the clear ... and I remember being extremely shaken by that.

Was Anglo mentioned at that meeting?

Mr. Richie Boucher

There was no discussion about ... there was no discussion ... albeit I did ask why they weren't at the meeting and why Irish Permanent weren't at the meeting, why was it was just us.

And was AIB present?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes, AIB were present at virtually all the meetings that took place later.

Mr. Richie Boucher

And then AIB and ourselves asked for time out to discuss various issues as to what we were being requested.

Okay. And this was still three weeks or so away from the bank guarantee. Were you involved in any further discussions with the authorities concerning INBS in the intervening period?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Personally I wasn't, no.

Okay. Can I ask you, Mr. Boucher, about the issue of subordinated debt being included in the bank guarantee at the end of September, because you make reference to that issue in your opening statement again, towards the bottom of page 8, and you give the clear impression that you were opposed to the inclusion of subordinated debt. Can you elaborate on that and distinguish between dated and undated subordinated debt? You expressed surprise at the inclusion of certain subordinated debt in the guarantee.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes, I mean again what I was trying to do is to give my impression of the matters that I was involved in to the committee-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

-----which I felt was the responsibility I had. So, we were in the ... you know, in this room we were getting calls. We first of all got a call that it was a blanket guarantee and then obviously there was questions to the chief executive - "What does a blanket guarantee mean?", "Were subsidiaries included?" etc., etc., - because each of us obviously was mentally thinking, "Okay, what's our communication tomorrow?" You know, "What's our action plan---

Mr. Richie Boucher

-----must we make?" I think about an hour, I can't remember exactly, but there was a third phone call where we were told subordinated debt was being included. I remember being a little bit surprised about that and talking to a couple of my other colleagues, who would have had quite a lot of strategic experience in the markets. We recognised, as a bank, certain of us and I think the bank as a whole was recognising that we would need to generate capital. I had been involved in parts of my career as a ... in specialist work-out teams and we saw that liability management can often generate capital. So, if we're owed ... if we owe a bondholder €100, the bond starts trading in the market at, say, €50-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

-----and we buy back that bond at €60. So, the person has bought the bond at €50, we offer €60, they make a profit and we have generated capital of the difference between what we ostensibly owed and now what we bought the bond back in, or swapped it for equity.

Mr. Richie Boucher

So, it was a well-trusted mechanism of generating capital and you were dealing with, shall we say, consenting adults. You're dealing with bondholders on a voluntary basis. I was surprised that this decision had been taken to incorporate it and I did have a discussion with a couple of colleagues and I said, "I don't know if this actually suits us as a bank."

So, just to clarify, you were surprised that the guarantee included dated subordinated debt?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I was surprised it went beyond senior debt, to be honest.

But are you surprised then that your CEO, Mr. Goggin, lobbied to have dated subordinated debt included in the guarantee that night?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I was surprised to hear his testimony that it was him. It wasn't discussed with the group. There was no strategic decision taken as to whether or not it was a good or a bad idea. In fairness though, Deputy, even in my testimony what I was trying to convey was that, you know, there was a lot of phone calls happening, there was a lot happening, people were in quite a stressed situation and Mr. Goggin has explained to you a distressed situation. There were technical calls. What my feeling is inside, it's not for me to say what happened to people who were on the pitch at the time - I was more in the dugout in that - but I was thinking more about implementation, rather than technical details.

But, Mr. Boucher-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

But I would ... Deputy, I would have been very conscious in my own mind of the hierarchy of debt.

Yes. But just to be clear, Mr. Goggin and Mr. Burrows were in Government Buildings. You were back at HQ with others and there was contact over the course of the evening by teleconference call. He was in Government Buildings, requesting that dated subordinated debt be included in the guarantee. You were in HQ and you were opposed to the inclusion of dated subordinated debt. Was this issue not teased out and discussed during the course of the evening?

Mr. Richie Boucher

No, like I said, it was a surprise but, you know-----

Was it a mistake, in hindsight? Could the bank have achieved greater burden sharing and improved its capital position further by imposing losses-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

No, I-----

-----on subordinated bondholders?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think again I think that's an interesting question. I don't think, in the end-----

Which could potentially have saved the taxpayers' money.

Mr. Richie Boucher

I don't think it made a big difference for us in Bank of Ireland, Deputy. We generated, we've generated, as has been publicly disclosed, we've generated, from the subordinated debt that was in issue at September 2008-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

-----or were subsequently issued, we generated €5 billion of capital-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

-----from liability management exercises of which, from memory, €2 billion came from debt that had been included in the period up to September 2010 and about €2 billion came from the ... that that had been excluded. Whether or not we would have been able to move more quickly on the liability management of the debt that had been covered-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

-----prior to September 2010, remembering I think that about €750 million, so we could have dealt with that €750 million-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

-----more quickly, I don't know. It might have altered our strategy, but I would say that the maximum amount ... we reached the maximum amount of our capital we could raise from liability as about €5 billion. I can't comment on what would have happened to other institutions.

But, just to clarify, there was no decision made at corporate level by Bank of Ireland, going into those crisis meetings, that the bank was in favour of including subordinated debt?

Mr. Richie Boucher

There was no corporate decision taken to do that.

Mr. Richie Boucher

And I beg your pardon, just to ... there wasn't a discussion about that.

Okay. Just to clarify, Mr. Goggin's rationale when he was asked about this was:

The reason that we suggested that junior dated should be included was that we were concerned about the crossover between junior dated [...] and senior bondholders, senior creditors. We were also concerned that that very same population, it was a crossover to the sovereign.

That was his logic.

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think there was a ... there was a ... there was a ... this was a ... there is a logic to that. There's a logic to ... in business, and a lot of things in life, I'm not sure whether there's ever an absolute black-and-white answer.

But was there greater logic, from the bank's point of view, not to have them included?

Mr. Richie Boucher

That was my personal view, Deputy, but there would be colleagues could have had different views and, you know, like I said, it's very rare that there's a decision that is, you know, absolutely right or absolutely wrong.

Mr. Richie Boucher

That was a personal view. It was based on my personal experience of work-outs.

Mr. Boucher, you're the most senior bank executive in Ireland to have survived the banking crisis. What makes you different from all the rest?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I don't really know, Deputy. I mean, what I go through is the process as to why I'm in my job is I stood before the shareholders every year, the shareholders voted in 2009, '10, '11, '12, '13, '14 and '15, every year as to whether I stay in my job. I've been under very significant regulatory scrutiny. I'm one of the few people that has had a ... I had a six-month investigation of my role in the crisis and my doing my job, that was done by an independent third party on behalf of the regulator. The regulator wrote to me afterwards, as I've disclosed to the committee, thanking me for my sense of responsibility and my engagement with the Central Bank, notwithstanding that I was going through this third-party process.

I focus on my job, to do my job to the best of my ability. I've had a huge focus on repaying the taxpayers. We in Bank of Ireland should never have got our position where we needed taxpayer support. It was wrong and a huge driving factor by me has been a recognition I was a member of a management team that made mistakes, made bad judgments that cost people money and I've had a huge focus on trying to rectify that.

I believe that we have made a lot of progress in doing that. But I don't know whether it's my personality, or my experience, or whatever. What I've tried to describe is the process as to why I moved from my role to where I am today and the scrutiny I've been under. I've also had huge scrutiny from the investors and the private sector investors that I persuaded to believe in Ireland and to believe in the recovery of the bank, the capital we've raised on that and a very, very significant question from the investors who were putting up new cash was an understanding of my role in the mistakes we'd made and what I was going to do to fix them and how I'd make money in so doing.

Thank you very much, Deputy McGrath. If I could maybe just return to one matter, Mr. Boucher, and that's to do with the NAMA discounts and in relation to loans acquired by the bank from ... when NAMA actually took over your loan book. The discount overall amounted to something like 43% to Bank of Ireland.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes.

Not the highest; some banks went up to 63%.

Could you offer possible explanations for such a high figure and why it was not reflective of the bank's provisioning policy up to the time of NAMA acquiring the loans? Quite simply, you had these loans valued at one figure and when NAMA got sight of them, it came out completely different.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Well, first of all, I'm not an accountant, and in fact some members of the committee are accountants, but under the accounting rules you can have models for mortgage businesses and other businesses. You are not allowed to make loss estimates. It's an incurred model. So your provisioning is an incurred model.

Mr. Richie Boucher

As to what you would do in that basis, so the provisioning is very different from what you might get on a mark-to-market basis.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Balance sheets can't be mark-to-market, because they change the whole time. When you're selling assets you're obviously selling on a mark-to-market and you recognise that. So in our disclosures to the market, Chairman, we had a very significant responsibility, in particular because people were buying and selling the shares, that we were still a public company, but also we were raising capital, so we had to make our best estimate of what we thought the cost of NAMA would be. So we showed in our accounts on a provisioning policy and then we disclosed to the market. We had to get permission from our shareholders, where we said we thought, based on our understanding of the models, so I was chief executive at the time, I pulled in people from all parts of our group, in particular people who understood securitisations, like, you know, we had quite a lot of experience, unfortunately too much experience in doing too much securitisation, but we had kept those skills. So we were able to tell the shareholders, when they were voting for NAMA, when they were trading our shares, and when they decided to invest in the company, what we thought was the best estimate of the absolute loss the bank would face by participation in NAMA. We gave a range, we gave a range between €4.2 billion and €4.8 billion. We said it depended on the absolute quantum of the loans transferred. But we had a pretty good understanding of the mark-to-market model that NAMA was operating, and-----

Do you think the NAMA valuations were inaccurate or an accurate reading of what the valuations were when they got sight of those?

Mr. Richie Boucher

We have to understand the methodology that was used.

I know that you've expressed the flaw with the methodology-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

There was also a different thing in the mark-to-market as well, which is the discount factor. So the discount rate was a big issue. The bank took a ... the bank's shareholders had to take a decision as to whether or not to participate in NAMA. I don't think we would have had a real choice and we recommended to the shareholders they didn't have a real choice.

Mr. Richie Boucher

You know, they had a vote to make, but we strongly recommended that we didn't feel we had an alternative choice.

And was there any relationship between the valuation placed upon NAMA and the level of concentration that Bank of Ireland actually had in the sector?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think the valuations became a function of the concentration across the entire sector and the fact that the property market had crashed. So we had valuers who had given us a valuation of, you know, I remember looking at cases where they would have given us a valuation of a property 18 months previously at €75 million, and then they were valuing it for NAMA at €7.5 million or €10 million. So there was a huge concentration of property lending in the US, in the UK, in Ireland, and therefore that volume of property lending was a factor. I expressed an opinion at the time that NAMA would make money from the loans that Bank of Ireland transferred, and I said, "Good luck to them." And we did a deal, we knew what we were getting into, we gave our best estimate as possible to the shareholders of what implications it involved, and our best estimate, very early in the process, turned out to be accurate.

Okay. Besides you talk about maybe fundamental difficulties with the accountancy processes and so forth, as to how the valuation of it would be done, but in Mr. Daly's testimony to the inquiry a number of weeks ago from NAMA, Mr. Boucher, he put out, I can go through it in depth, but I can maybe just summarise it for you, where he was saying that the equity growth in the purchase of one development was being used as the security for another purchase and this was having a compound effect. Was that a practice that was reflective of how Bank of Ireland were engaging with the sector?

Mr. Richie Boucher

We did. We didn't, like a lot of things, we didn't do it to the extent of other people, but we did. That was a mistake and that's a ... in our new approach that's not permitted.

And at that time, was the bank looking at, if a particular developer was acquiring a substantial loan from Bank of Ireland, were you looking at other liabilities that they may have had with financial institutions or issues across securitisation or situations where maybe a personal guarantee was being used in a multiple of circumstances?

Mr. Richie Boucher

We did, but I don't think we understood it to the extent we should have.

How do you understand it now?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Well, I think what we often looked at was that our particular deal was ring-fenced. So we looked at a particular transaction, we said, you know, okay, this is how it should work out, and in a downside this is what we would do. What we didn't take enough of a recognition of was the systemic issues. I feel that in the bank in the past, we lacked some peripheral vision of what was happening in the market. I think it can happen in a big bank in a small economy. One of my executives subsequently described it as that we spent a lot of time having meetings with our backs to the windows instead of looking out more. So I don't think we had a proper appreciation of correlation risk and the extent that, notwithstanding you go into a deal you think this is how it'll work out for us, if the rest of the building is on fire the room you're in could ... is going to catch fire as well.

Final question on that before I bring in Deputy O'Donnell. In the context of Bank of Ireland, do you believe that NAMA was required?

Mr. Richie Boucher

In the context of, yes, I believed it was. We made an informed decision. And so I was the chief executive, with the chairman I recommended to our board we participated. I felt that, going back to the issue, and again it was partially influenced by my previous experience in work-outs, is basically unless all the keys are put in the middle of the table, you really find it very hard to work out your part of a deal. It all has to be brought together. It all has to be dealt with in a certain way. I thought ... I said at the time, when I was asked by shareholders and investors, I felt it was a good solution. It provided liquidity. It brought everything into the middle. It enabled people with expertise to look at the ... to forget about an individual bank's situation, how it would work out generally. So I felt that ... I recommended to our shareholders that NAMA ... we participate in NAMA. I said at the time that I thought NAMA could make money out of what it ... but, you know, we sell assets, we accept a price for it. If other people make money that's business. I'm happy. A good deal is a deal where both sides walk away happy.

Okay, thank you, Mr. Boucher. Deputy O'Donnell.

Thanks, Chairman. Welcome, Mr. Boucher. Mr. Boucher, in the bank's strategy between '04 and '09 you were looking at an earnings per share growth of 15% per annum. And was that very ambitious in the market that you were operating in?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think we felt we could get enhanced growth by diversification. We recognised we had large market positions in Ireland. The Irish economy was still growing at 5% to 6%. Certain of our businesses, like our life business and our fund management business, were particularly benefitting from good markets. And then we felt we could diversify in corporate division by getting into different asset classes. As it transpired, that was a right decision for the quality of the assets but we couldn't fund them or provide the capital subsequently. And we felt we could grow our UK business at a quicker pace. That earnings per share growth was kind of middle of the pack, upper quartile as to what we saw other banks were forecasting. It was overly ambitious in terms of the strain it put on our capital and liquidity and our infrastructure.

Can I go back? You took over as CEO of retail banking in Ireland on 1 January 2006, is that correct, Mr. Boucher?

Mr. Richie Boucher

In January. I can't remember the exact date.

And within that position, you would have been in charge of property and construction loans within the bank. Would I be correct that loan-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

No, Deputy.

What area would you have been in charge of?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Property and construction lending done within business banking Ireland. We had three divisions, three ... we had a fourth division, which is the fund management business, but three businesses involved in lending: our UK division, our corporate division, and our retail Ireland division. But property and construction lending below certain customer limits, between €10 million and €15 million, was a component of our business bank.

Mr. Richie Boucher

And also, sorry, Deputy, I should just, for the sake of clarity, there was some lending done to customers in our private banking unit, which was a------

Well, in terms of your interaction with the property and construction loans within your role as CEO of retail banking, what areas of loans would you have had direct involvement with and control of?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I would have ... if there was a loan above a discretion of a ... so the process was that we had relationship managers and business leaders in the different businesses -----

If a loan was above a certain limit -----

Mr. Richie Boucher

It would come recommended to me or to a credit committee.

Mr. Richie Boucher

So if it was recommended, I could approve or decline. If it wasn't ... well, sorry it was unlikely to come to me if it was not recommended. On certain occasions for several loans, the underwriter would come and chat to me and say, ''Listen, you know this is a finely balanced decision?"

So above what limit would it have come to you?

Mr. Richie Boucher

It depended on the credit grade as well.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Above €15 million to €20 million so there would have been ... I can't remember that exact number where I directly approved ... but for the sake of clarity on property lending, as a member of the group credit committee, I would have been a member of a credit committee where business banking and corporate loans would have come in.

When you took ... you came in ... in the year ... if you look at the property loan book of Bank of Ireland between '05 and we will say '09 ... between ... in the year 2006 when you took over, property and construction lending jumped by 28%. The loan book increased by 28%. Your previous in '05 went up by 13%. Why did it jump to such an extent in 2006? There was an increase of roughly about €5 billion in that year in property and construction loans.

Mr. Richie Boucher

In the group or in the business banking?

It would be Bank of Ireland overall.

Mr. Richie Boucher

In the group.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes. I think there was the three divisions. There was a combination of three divisions. I think there was probably a higher component being done in our business bank ... in our, sorry, our UK division, as subsequently transpired by the breakdown. So we gave in our disclosure to the committee and including one of the core documents that you have provided to me it, shows the breakdown between our UK division, our corporate division and our Irish division. I can't recall exactly -----

Can I just ... in the limited time that I have, Project Atlas provides a very, very stark statistic that when it was ... they looked at the loan book in '08, Bank of Ireland had €5.4 billion of ... related to land bank ... land bank loans alone. And of that €5.4 billion, €3.2 billion, which is 60% of that loan book had no planning ... of that land. So you had €3.2 billion out for land that had no planning. How did that happen?

Mr. Richie Boucher

From memory 90% of it, of the land of which just if I can recall ... the information that is provided and that you are referring to ... roughly 50%, maybe 55% to 60% of the land ... and land would also include where there are works or infrastructure put in ... roughly 50% of that ... sorry, 55% to 60% was in Ireland and 40% roughly outside Ireland. From memory 90% of the land either was zoned or had planning permission. There was about 10% unzoned.

In terms of value, right ... what we were told it was €5.4 million there was €13.1 billion relating to land and development ... €5.4 billion to land bank. The land bank can be analysed as follows: €0.4 billion, unzoned lands, €2.8 billion, zoned lands with no planning permission ... so that's taken from Project Altas. The question I suppose I am asking very quickly is: how could you give out €3.2 billion of money ... in at the end ... it was in place at the end of '08, without planning?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Because it was zoned. The lending -----

It was zoned but no planning.

Mr. Richie Boucher

But like, people were buying land which was zoned and then they were looking for planning permission for the particular transaction.

So you were willing to give out money without the land ... because you could have looked for it to be subject to planning permission being granted. Why would you give money without planning permission being granted on land when you could have made it a condition of the providing the loan that it had to be subject to planning?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Well, the position of the finance and the development would have been subject to planning. Like I have -----

But clearly that's not the case here.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes, Deputy, absolutely. That was a mistake.

That was a mistake.

Mr. Richie Boucher

And we do not do that now. So we do not finance landbank now.

Can I move on? In terms of the model ... the remuneration scheme that was in place. In 2007-2008 the bonus scheme that was in place for the top executives, 75% of the bonus related to earnings per share. And, Mr. Boucher, in the year in which you took over as ... you became a director ... for 31 March 2007 accounts, you made a bonus of two and a half times your basic salary, which was ... your basic salary was €242,000 and your bonus was €615,000. The following year in '08 you had a basic of €550,000 and you made a bonus of more or less the same amount. So the quick question I have to ask of you ... and thereafter your salary when you became the CEO overall at the ... in 2009, your salary jumped from €580,000 per annum to €690,000 per annum, an increase of 20%, €110,000. The questions I have was, the model that was put in place for bonuses, did it lead to irresponsible lending? Did lending, property lending become a quick fix for earnings per share growth in the bank? And how do you justify taking that level of salary in 2009 of €690,000 when the Irish taxpayer was putting €3.5 billion into your bank at that same time? So if you could deal with those points, Mr. Boucher ... how can you justify that level of salary?

You have used a good bit of time now as well, Deputy.

Mr. Richie Boucher

My salary was approved by the Minister for Finance at the time and was voted on by the shareholders who were paying for it and that continues to be the case. Every year I stand before the shareholders to be elected as to whether I stay in my job or not and the shareholders decide what I'm paid. I don't have anything further to say on that. Going back to the remuneration model ... yes, I mean like, there were bonuses paid. I don't think the percentages you have are right because I think you may be referring to the fact that my salary was disclosed for the period I was director where was the bonus. So it would have been somewhere between 150%, I think, if we do it.

Still a significant amount of money, Mr. Boucher.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Absolutely. My bonus in 2008, from the 2007 period, I bought Bank of Ireland shares. So maybe there was some poetic justice in that.

Final question, Deputy.

The question is ... the model that was put in place in terms of the bonus scheme you had ... was property lending a quick fix for earnings per share growth in the bank?

Mr. Richie Boucher

The earnings per share growth ... I don't think the property lending was a component, but what I would say, Deputy, is that there was not sufficient cognisance of risk in remuneration. We don't have bonus schemes in place. If and when they do arise in the future, then there will be significant processes for clawbacks, for deferrals, etc. because we have to recognise that loans we put on today, we won't know for three to four years as to whether or not it was the right decision, strategic decisions we take. So I wouldn't categorise, Deputy, that it was the property lending. The earnings per share was a focus, as Mr. Goggin has disclosed, in 2005 and 2006, it was primarily related to a cost programme. It was more related ... 75% to a earnings per share growth. In 2007 -----

A very quick question Mr. Boucher -----

Mr. Richie Boucher

But that was wrong.

Okay, Deputy, sorry, you are way over time. I just want to finish off on the remuneration issue, Mr. Boucher. At the time do you believe the remuneration packages were actually merited and do you believe that there are ... you've outlined some reforms on remuneration in your comments. Do you have further comments on how you believe remuneration should be dealt with going in the future?

Mr. Richie Boucher

We would be a strong subscriber to the fact that there should be greater risk measures. At the moment, while we don't have bonuses and we may or may not have them at some stage in the future, I would say that for our performance appraisals, so for everyone in the group, we have typically four quadrants they have to perform in as to ... for their performance rating, done on a six month or annual basis. There is a risk component and our chief risk officer must appear before the remuneration committee and must attest as to whether, in his view, the performance appraisals and the models and processes used for the year in question have a sufficient weighting towards risk.

So final question on that. Under the new remuneration model, the banking operation through the crisis period using the new model, would the bonuses and remuneration packages for that time now be clawed back?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I don't think so under the way that it was constructed at the time. I think -----

It would be a new model now, you can't play them retrospectively but given the circumstances of the past, using the new model, could you claw some of them back -----

Mr. Richie Boucher

The 2008, I think would have been clawed back.

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think what we will have is ... if we were to have it in the future, you would have deferrals, automatic deferrals, and then you have claw-back.

Thank you. What I now propose is that we suspend until 11.20 a.m. It is just coming up to 11 o'clock. The witness is reminded that once he begins giving evidence, he should not confer with any person other than his legal team in relation to their evidence on matters are being discussed before the committee. With that in mind, I now propose that we suspend the meeting until 11.20 a.m. and remind the witness that he is still under oath until we resume. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 11.01 a.m. and resumed at 11.27 a.m.

I propose that we go back into public session and continue with our engagement with Mr. Boucher this morning. And in doing so I'd invite Deputy John Paul Phelan. Deputy, you have ten minutes.

Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Mr. Boucher.

I want to at the start refer to exceptions to lending policy. There is a section in core document B2, pages 51 to 60 that deals specifically with it. Could you outline for the committee the level of agreement to exceptions to credit policy between the years 2004 and 2008 and perhaps explain why part of the solution at the time appears to have been there was a change in policy? And do you feel that those exceptions were sufficiently challenged at the time before they were agreed to?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Well, I think they were sufficiently challenged at the time, but the challenge ... or some of the decisions were incorrect. It's absolutely clear that some of the lending we did turned out to not to work out well for the customers or for ourselves. The process of exceptions, as I think has been explained in the document and the volume, is often if there was a minor exception across a multiple transaction, the whole exposure to that customer would be included in an exception. What we... so I would go with the thesis that whether or not the lending was done on an exception or whether it was done within policy, some of the lending was mistaken. What we do now is that... we do still have exceptions. We give greater clarity to our board as to why exceptions will be taking place and part of it is that some of policies are quite tight deliberately. Because under an exception process you can, you can't have... say, for some corporate type transactions in particular, it's very hard to have a model that reflects the complexity of corporate transaction and if a policy exception is triggered, then it goes to a different level of decision-making, so it gets a higher level of scrutiny.

Previous speakers have referred to transfers from Bank of Ireland to NAMA. I've done a bit of investigation since that question was asked and it turns out that 73% of connections transferred across from Bank of Ireland to NAMA were subject to some sort of exception at the time, there was 191 connections, 139 exceptions, €8.8 billion worth of €9.8 billion transferred across were subject to some sort of exception. Can you explain for the committee maybe the relationship, the strong relationship that appears to exist between the transfers to NAMA and the fact that those loans were subject to exceptions?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Well I think if we just go back to the NAMA requirement was that an entire asset class which was land and development and then connected invested property loans moved across to NAMA above a limit as the Deputy would be aware. So we didn't have a choice in a factor and it wasn't cherry picking, the entire volume moved up so I don't think there was a correlation between exceptions and NAMA transfers. What I think my ... in an answer to a request for an inquiry from the committee to explain the exceptions, and like I've touched on earlier, Deputy, you could have had €100 million of an exposure there could have been one part maybe a €3 million loan that was an exception, but the entire thing was counted as an exception, the entire €100 million. Like I said at the same time though, Deputy, they were decisions, whether they were made within policy or within exceptions which turned out not to work out.

Can I turn now to core document B2, page 3 it's a document that's entitled Annual Review of Credit .. or Annual Review of Mortgage Lending Group Credit Perspective. It was produced in December 2004, around the time I think your position changed and you became a member of a credit committee of the bank. There's a quote under the graphs which says, "Mortgage lending has increased from €21.4 bn in 1999 to €38.6 bn in 2004 [a virtual doubling], €19 bn of which has been written in the last 18 months." Can I ask how can you justify now or was there justification at the time for such a massive increase in concentration in lending in that particular sector?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Well I think, as the Deputy will be aware, I was in corporate banking at the time but if I go back I think it should also be noted that a significant growth in the mortgage lending was done in the UK so when we came to the end of September 2008, the mortgage lending was roughly somewhere between €30 billion in Ireland, €30 billion in the UK. There'd been significant growth in The UK. The UK book turned out to be of better quality then the industry average but the mistake in the UK was that it had been grown through an inappropriate securitisation model.

Can I ask you, for the benefit of those who are operating the screens the following page, page 4, there's a reference that I want to refer to. Mr. Goggin when he was here ... by the way besides, I think it was Deputy McGrath asked you the question about the extent of the guarantee ... did you see the testimony Mr. Goggin gave to the committee and was there any other matters you disagreed with than on extent of what items were covered under or should be covered under the guarantee?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I don't disagree with Mr. Goggin's testimony. Mr. Goggin, I think, gave his best recollections of what happened

You just said you had a difference -----

Mr. Richie Boucher

There was a ... there was a ... when I heard I didn't necessarily think it was a good idea. And just to be clear, Deputy, that was in the context, I was asked to give a written statement in connection with the decisioning around the guarantee. I wasn't criticising Mr. Goggin I was just pointing out my recollections of issues at that time.

Mr. Goggin was asked in his testimony was there a contrarian view within the bank and he ... with regard to the policies that were going on, lending policies and he said that there wasn't. I want to refer to the first paragraph on page 4 of B2, it's a document that was produced by a man named Ronan M. Murphy, and at the bottom of the first paragraph there's a quote saying, "Going forward, the risk for the Bank is that we may be building up a higher risk portfolio the full extent of which will not emerge for 3-5 years as these loans mature." Now that's the end of 2004 that document was produced, a very prophetic document as things turned out. Do you agree I suppose with the analysis that he produced? Did you express any opinions on it at the time in your capacity as a member of the credit committee of the bank? Was there any actions taken following that fairly stark warning from Mr. Murphy in December 2004?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Just to confirm again, Deputy, I was a member of the GRPC so ... that wasn't a thing ... however in commentary in general terms, I note having read the document that in the end there was a recommendation of continuation, so you, you've quoted one component the entire document was produced by Mr. Murphy. He tried to give a balanced view and he tried to give a recommendation at the end that's his job and that's all of our jobs. But in hindsight, the level of mortgage lending we did was too much. So whether or not I was involved in the original decision making there were times when I could have said, "We need to slow down", and I didn't say that. But I did do and as has been shown in the documents that has been provided in the core documents, is in mortgage lending in the Republic of Ireland in one of the documents you provided shows the level of exception reduced and the volume of lending reduced in 2007 and 2008 when we did take the decision to stand back from certain market sectors but we didn't stand back enough and we didn't do it quickly enough.

I want to, in my brief time that's left, reference mostly core document B4, pages 21 and 23. There's a continuous theme throughout a lot of the documents provided by Bank of Ireland that there was inadequate credit skills in the bank at precisely the time that credit was expanding rapidly. There's a quote on page 23 that I want to reference, near the bottom of that page, "A review of the Legal Services Unit identified a backlog of files, some with serious issues, which could expose the Bank to significant risk."

And again on page 23 it says that senior business managers and business managers the level of unsatisfactory reports had doubled, and further on, on the bottom of page 21, "A number of control issues were also identified within the Tele Media team within Corporate Banking." Can you remember what the serious legal issues were? Were they dealt with? There's also a reference to disciplinary issues having to be taken. Can you remember those being discussed at the time? The reference I think is in the middle of that page 21.

Thank you Deputy.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Deputy ... I have read the documents, my recollection is that the documents .. well they are from early 2006. I'd come into the position of chief executive retail there was certain issues about the volume of work to have done in legal services division which is an internal division in the bank and in particular, not more related to kind of business type loans. I think the documentation also says that I said at the second meeting that I wanted a much higher proportion of that legal work to be done externally because I felt it could be done to a higher standard and where people could be held more accountable because you were paying them to do that. That was done and that is reflected in the fact that, going back to one of the Chairman's and some of earlier questions about NAMA transfers. The level of discounts that we had for documentation were minimal. I think also in a question of ... the managers not tolerating excesses on accounts and that I think also in one of the disclosed documents provided in the core document, I think it's B4 page 25, its noted from 2008 there had been a significant improvement and that I had taken responsibility as chief executive in retail and I brought in skills from other banks which brought in a higher disciplinary process in terms of managers adhering to exceptions, training, etc. So we did make quite a lot of progress but we should have made more.

What were the disciplinary issues, specifically there were referred to on page 21 -----

Last question, Deputy.

Mr. Richie Boucher

There could have been a range of disciplinaries I don't think it was egregious issues but people not adhering to policies and standards, so that might have been to have money ... not have the documentation fully completed before recommending the loan is drawn down. Not adhering to policies and standards in that place, and we brought in a process to ensure that, that was better done. I brought in people to assist in that process.

Thank you, Deputy Phelan. Senator Sean Barrett. Senator, ten minutes.

Thank you, Chairman, and welcome to Mr. Boucher. When you were answering my colleague, Deputy Phelan, on the exceptions for owner-occupier mortgages, 24,000 of them ... on page 55 of B2 ... you said that there were within the bank ... contesting and debate on these issues. But the then governor for most of that period, Mr. Crowley, said, "In particular, I do not recall any issues of imprudent lending being brought to a board by the executives of the bank, the internal auditors or the external auditors." Was it a very compliant kind of culture?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think we believed it was. That is a belief statement rather than a factual statement. We believed it was but if I look at what we do now and what we did then, as I gave in my answer to Deputy Phelan, there is a much higher level of embedded reporting on exceptions, reporting on the reasons for exceptions, gathering those together across the group. So it is a much more embedded, much more forensic process now than it was then.

Are there other major changes that you've introduced to change the bank from the one you inherited, because the committee has to come up with recommendations for the future conduct of banking in Ireland?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think, you know, I've had advice from people. I've had recommendations and I've ... my job is to make decisions and to implement the decisions or recommend them. The business model, I think, is the biggest change we've made. The business model and that we must fund ourselves ... must fund ourselves in the markets. It must only be in areas where we have a perceived market advantage. The level of capital, the level of liquidity that we have, very significant changes in the reporting and management information on risk ... on concentration and risk. I think I provided to you a contrast. And this is, you know, I was a member of the team so I must obviously must take responsibility for that, as well as what happened subsequently. The contrast, in particular, between the kind of strategic papers we would've produced and the focus in those strategic papers, which was earnings per share, etc., which would have been an eight or nine-page document, in particular the stress test document provided to Mr. Baron, deputy governor of the Central Bank in 2006, and the document we now provide, which is 175 pages, has a huge focus on stress testing, on liquidity testing, on capital under different scenarios and testing ourselves in different scenarios. So that's that. I think it's not confined to Bank of Ireland. I think those processes and policies, procedures, etc., are taking place in banks across the world. But, you know, we've put a much bigger focus ... but I think the biggest focus is on ... business model.

And you mentioned the €6 billion that you've repaid. What's the loss of shareholder value from peak to trough for holders of Bank of Ireland shares?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think it's always hard to do that. As I said you've to look at ... the share price absolutely peaked at €19 but how many people bought their shares or sold their shares at that? There's been a massive loss in shareholder value. I can't say what it was or wasn't. Our market capitalisation peaked at around about €13 billion. It is around about €11.5 billion now but obviously we've generated new capital. One of the things that I would note is a lot of the ... some of the capital we generated and raised was to do with losses but also there's a significant increase in capital ratios. So capital ratios have moved from about 7% to 14%. So some of that capital is about strengthening rather than filling holes.

How much did shareholders lose?

Mr. Richie Boucher

It's an impossible question for me to answer, Senator, because I don't know what ... the position of individual shareholders. Shareholders made money and shareholders have lost. Some shareholders bought their shares at ten cents, some of them bought them at €19, some of them bought at €2, some of them sold at €3. It's an impossible question to ask.

But wouldn't people who have your shares as pensions or, indeed, pension funds have an idea of what this has cost the wider society?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think one would have to ask an individual shareholder what price they bought the shares at and whether or not they hold them or lost them. Also, I think one of the questions in particular ... we've had two rights issues. So one of the things that we've focused on is the dilution impact in raising capital. We always gave an opportunity ... and shareholders can follow their money and if they follow their money they can ... if the capitalisation of the bank increases ... if they decide not to follow their money, they lose capital. I think, to go to your question, I would be very cognisant of the fact that institutions have a greater ability to follow their money in rights issues than individuals do. And that ... so I would say that the individual shareholder ... personal shareholder didn't have the ability or financial resources to follow the progress the bank has made and to participate in rights issues under which they've made money. So a shareholder that would've bought ... would've held shares ... would've bought shares maybe in 2007, if they had followed their rights, I'd say they'd probably break even at the moment. Shareholders who bought their shares in 2008 have made a lot of money. Shareholders who bought in 2011, including the State, have tripled their money. But I'd also ... you don't actually make your money until you cash out. You know, your share price, your bond price can go up, down. Ultimately, it's when you buy and when you sell.

You mention ... in our papers ... B2, at pages 18 and 19, that the 100% mortgage was introduced in July 2005. And it's recorded that by November there was no formal response from the regulator. Now, we've heard from Mr. Goggin that there was misgivings within the bank and that he recommended 90% in discussions with the regulator. Did the regulator ever express an opinion after July 2005 when 100% mortgages were introduced?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I'm not conscious that they did, but I also ... you know, I didn't have .... I had surprisingly little interaction with the regulator despite my roles over four years in the jobs I was in, which is very different now. As recently as last week, I'd a three-hour meeting with the regulators. But I would say that ... I'm conscious that colleagues did seek engagement with the regulator saying that this is a dangerous market practice. But like I've also said, if we absolutely, absolutely felt it was so bad, we could have decided not to.

Yes. Would you have expected him to come back at least by November when this practice started in July?

Mr. Richie Boucher

They would be back to us today in a nanosecond. I don't think that timescale was evident in that period.

Residential investment property ... that's also ... it's 63, 67, in book B2. The residential investment property, RIP [I think there's irony in that] doubled within Bank of Ireland over 15 months from 2003 to September 2004. Was the risk associated with that appreciated?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Again, like I've said ... like I wasn't ... that was outside of the roles I was in at that time but clearly, as hindsight has shown, it wasn't. I think there was a desire - and that was reflected in subsequent minutes - to, in particular, recognise there were risks ... or what we would have described as amateur investors. There was controls put on lending to people who had certain income levels, etc. And ... so there was a desire to limit the exposure to certain income brackets. That was a ... it was an enlightened self-interest rather than a social good issue, to be honest because we felt that the ... people mightn't have the ability to support the property if the rental didn't transpire.

Because, by 22 November 2004, the risk policy committee minutes says, "the book is relatively unseasoned and untested" ... "50% of [that] book is less than 12 months old". So that was a speculative era in property to a dangerous degree, I suppose, compared to what the bank had to correct later on.

Mr. Richie Boucher

It was ... it's an absolutely true statement that the lending hadn't been seasoned, that there hadn't been sufficient experience of what would happen in a downturn. The models were tested for interest rates. So when we did a lending, we did a test for an interest rate assumption for ... income assumption. The buy-to-let book, which is what we now call it ... I think, as I've disclosed, is performing slightly better. But, in fact, I think the decision to move to more professional landlords who were connected, in particular, with the construction industry was the biggest exposure we had in that buy-to-let book and I've said that to the market.

Thank you very much, Mr. Boucher. Thank you, Chairman.

Deputy Pearse Doherty. Ten minutes, Deputy.

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh, agus fáilte roimh an t-Uasal Boucher chuig an coiste. Mr. Boucher, your institution showed an increased reliance on wholesale funding from 2005 on, to finance growth in the loan portfolio, and I'm referencing here core documents, BOI - B3, page 15, which shows that wholesale funding in March 2004 was 30% of the balance sheet and was forecasted to increase two years later to 44%. Given those quite dramatic increases over a short period of time, were you aware of the issues at that time and did you regard this as a fundamental risk to the bank?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I don't think we recognised it as the risk it was, Deputy. I think we believed that what other banks were doing, what the markets were doing, what advisers were doing, that securitisation was safe. It was a good way to do it. There's not a problem with securitisation, there's an over-reliance. I've given in earlier testimony, if I look back, I think that was the biggest single mistake and I think there was a fundamental flow in the sterling securitisation markets of sterling being a natural short currency and it had actually been financed in reality, in dollar markets. A number of other banks that had financed UK mortgages found out a similar issue. So I would say the biggest ... we made a lot of mistakes, Deputy, but our biggest mistake was a liquidity mistake. As it transpired, when the authorities were able to provide liquidity against collateral, our ability to ride through the liquidity crisis was better because we had that collateral, but the business model was flawed.

Mr. Richie Boucher

It was a flawed business model to lend money when you're not gathering customer deposits on the other side.

Okay. Mr. Boucher, I'd like to refer to book of evidence, BOI, Vol. 2, page 17, and the reference is BOI02042001. This is an extract from the minutes of the court of directors meeting on 21 October 2008 and it deals with a meeting between the Bank of Ireland executives and the Financial Regulator, at which the issue of recapitalisation was raised. The minutes say "Messrs. Goggin, O'Donovan and Donovan took the opportunity to outline the case for early recapitalisation by Government as set out in ... paper which has been circulated to the Court and the desirability of early consolidation." Can I ask you, Mr. Boucher, does the paper on recapitalisation by Government exist?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think we would've disclosed that ... if it did ... like I said, Deputy, I, for very obvious reasons, I haven't been involved in the disclosure process in our own bank, but there has been a high level of governance. If there was a paper, it would've been presented to the committee.

Why did Bank of Ireland make a case for recapitalisations, what I understand is three days before you signed up to the Government guarantee on 24 October?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think we recognised what we would ... recognise at that time, in the United States, in Belgium, in Holland, in France, and in particular in the UK which is the most contiguous market to us and where the capital markets look most closely, there had been a significant change in the market's perception of the level of capital needed in the bank. That, you know, banks just needed more capital, whether there was an absolute ratio but there was an absolute recognition you need more capital.

And when did you come to this conclusion?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think over a period of probably from ... I would say from the summer, Deputy, there was an increasing recognition within the bank, that we were ... whereas we were adequately capitalised, we weren't sufficiently capitalised for a storm that could come and-or to pursue the business model.

But when did you come to the conclusion that you needed Government recapitalisation?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think that there, what was a ... our desire was to explore what was happening elsewhere. Naturally, the markets at that time ... so what we were looking at, do we have a private sector solution? And what the markets were looking in particular, was Government intervention and Government-related solutions, so what my colleagues were trying to explore is, what was the approach, we were trying to get some feedback from the regulators because we were hearing from our investment bankers and our contacts that in the Bank of England, for example, was giving very, very clear guidance to the banks it regulated as to what capital levels it expected. There was no point in us starting a capital-raising exercise unless we were at a level of degree and be able to tell investors, "This is what we think the ratios are going to be required, this is a buffer and this is ... the Government is or isn't going to be involved."

Okay. The minutes also record, and this is on page 18 of the same book that:

The Governor then reported that he had called his counterpart in AIB for a general discussion on the market and learned that AIB [did] not propose to approach the Government for capital but would be receptive to preference capital if available. However, DG expressed a distinct lack of enthusiasm for the idea that the Government might recapitalise all banks because, like the [Government] guarantee ..., it would sustain some which do not deserve to survive in his view.

For the record, was Bank of Ireland at the time arguing for the recapitalisation of all banks that were guaranteed?

Mr. Richie Boucher

No, I don't ... I have no recollection of that, I mean, we were probably selfishly focused on ourself, but that was our job. It's a matter of public comment, public note and statements made. Bank of Ireland took a different view of their requirement to recapitalise than our biggest competitor. I have no recollection and I would be surprised if Bank of Ireland was advocating-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

-----either directly or indirectly for other banks to be capitalised.

Okay. Did Bank of Ireland share the view of AIB that, and DG which I assume is Dermot Gleeson, that not all banks deserve to survive?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I don't think we had a ... I have no recollection of us having as direct a view on that. I think we felt it was inevitable that some wouldn't and there needed to be plans for those. But we weren't as focused on ... I've read Mr. Gleeson's testimony. His testimony said on 28 September, they had information that we didn't have, that two banks were going to be dealt with and four banks were going to be guaranteed. We didn't have that information. I don't recall us being as, I don't want to use the word pejoratively, as fixated on what ... we just ... you know, as to whether or not two other banks should survive, as AIB have testified. But at the same time, I would also be ... I don't have a personal recollection of AIB as being vehement, as has been reflected in the commentary to the committee.

Okay. Maybe just ... on the night of the guarantee, did you believe that Anglo or Nationwide were solvent or insolvent?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I didn't ... I felt that it was a matter of record, Deputy, that I felt that Irish Nationwide had much bigger problems than the market and people realised. I got ... as I said, I was very shocked. I had been involved in an exercise back in 2006, late, I can't remember the exact date, where at that time, options were being considered for Irish Nationwide. One of the investment banks had approached us and said, "Would we be interested in looking at it?" Mr. Goggin asked me to, because obviously I was chief executive of retail. I had probably an afternoon of meetings by myself with the then chief executive of Irish Nationwide and his company secretary to discuss their business model to get an outline of the type of lending they did, in particular to understand the franchise value in their mortgage markets with small business lending markets. I got an understanding of what I felt the business model was. I went back to the chief executive and said I didn't feel that there was an opportunity for us and I didn't recommend we pursue it. I recognised as we were coming back up to the night that weekend, I recognised the liquidity problems were not as big. There was a discussion between ourselves and AIB, there was some commentary from the regulator that they felt, well, the haircut on Irish Nationwide's books would be, I don't know, a mid-teens per cent. Whether I had a justification to say it, but I do recollect I said, "Well, whatever they say, it's two or three times that."

So the AIB minutes that we've discussed with AIB reflect the meeting that you had, suggested that Bank of Ireland believed that the write-down would be 30% to 50%?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes, but ... look, it was a ... there was no kind of, mathematical ... I said, "Whatever that is, it is going to be two or three times that."

And that was informed to the regulator at that time, three weeks before the guarantee?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Whether or not that was directly said, we ... I just said, I mean, my ... I felt we couldn't support it. I didn't want to get in a position where we were having a discussion. I felt we ... to be honest, I felt we should get out of the building. I said, "We can't support these people. You don't have enough information to enable us." I didn't want us to get sucked into a discussion-----

Okay. My final-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

And that's being very honest.

Okay, I appreciate that. My final question, Mr. Boucher, in relation to Bank of Ireland and your entry to NAMA, the board considered a paper in relation to a proposed application for Bank of Ireland to become a participant institution of NAMA. In that paper I've seen, my apologies it is not in the book of evidence, but if you can recall it, it will be helpful.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes, I can.

It mentions that if the bank is unable to participate in NAMA the bank may ultimately face nationalisation. How ... was this, was this a major concern, a minor concern for the bank that if you didn't go into NAMA that you could be nationalised? And maybe if you could tell us about that-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

Well, I mean I'm, I'm not sure, like it was a potential consequence were a concern. I recommended to the board ... that was my responsibility, you know, so once you become chief executive you take accountability and responsibility for everything you must recommend. Like I had tried to identify in an earlier question, I had had experience of work-outs. I said we are not going to be able to work out our property ourselves, we'll have a view on this. We're not going to be able to do it. I said we have to raise capital. The markets won't believe what our marks are on the property. We need to get these assets off our books. We might have a view that it'll work out okay - we might believe it, the markets won't. And if we don't raise capital, the only source of capital ... if we don't raise capital from the private markets, then the only other source of capital is from the Government. I think I used the phrases to the board "We're going to have to suck this up, we're going to have to participate in NAMA, we're going to have to persuade the shareholders it's a good idea because I don't think we can work it out if the whole system is in NAMA and we're not, the market won't believe that we'll be able to work it out." We could have believed it, and we could have been right, but I don't think it would have happened, and that's why I recommended to the shareholders ... I recommended to the board to recommend to the shareholders we had to participate in NAMA, because if we didn't, my view is the markets would just not have participated in the recapitalisation we had in 2010.

So NAMA, in your view, and correct me if I'm wrong, saved you from being nationalised?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think NAMA was a process to enable us to deal with an issue and to raise private sector capital. I think the nationalisation was a consequence. I might have used it for dramatic effect with the board to say like you know, I doubt we have a choice. I said I don't think we can raise the ... if I was a market participant - because I was looking at it from the people I'd have to go and try to sell the bank to in terms of raising capital. I said if I'm spending nine tenths of the meeting explaining a property and construction book, and not talking about what the other aspects of the business, I said I'm losing; I'm losing before we start the discussion with these investors.

Thank you. May I just clear up one matter as well, just the ... in regard to Bank of Ireland on the entry into the guarantee, just to clarify Mr. Boucher, do you believe that Bank of Ireland was solvent at that time, or not?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes. I had a view that the bank was solvent and it subsequently transpired we were.

Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Richie Boucher

But, sorry, Chairman, I forgot to say, on the night of the guarantee we believed that we could see ourselves through the liquidity issues. I can't do a counter-factual-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

-----as to what would have happened six weeks if the TARP hadn't happened, other things. We could have run out of money. It would have taken us much longer than other banks, but we could have run out of money. So the guarantee ... we made a decision to go into guarantee. I was a member of the committee that recommended we had made a decision. I didn't think we had a choice, and I think we would have been isolated.

When you say you don't think you had choice, do you-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

Like if the rest of the system had been guaranteed and we hadn't.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Again, we would been spending our whole time explaining. You know, if you were talking to investors and you're explaining rather than pitching - you're losing. I think we could have guaranteed, and I think that is evidenced by an area of my personal responsibility, when inadvertently due to the scrambling on the night, a subsidiary of ours, a licensed subsidiary, ICS, was left out of the guarantee. And I think it was an accident whatever happened. And the records we've disclosed to the committee would show that I, I urged other colleagues who had engagement with Central Bank and with the Government, saying we need to get ICS in. So that could evidence that, you know, even a small subsidiary under the blanket of Bank of Ireland, which was specifically guaranteed, that I felt that, you know, we could have a problem in ICS if all the other Irish banks were guaranteed and our subsidiary wasn't. So, I advocated. Once the guarantee became available, once it became a guarantee that we couldn't ... we couldn't operate systemically.

Our other competitors, Ulster Bank, the main competitor, had been, effectively, nationalised by the British Government, so the depositors had an implicit guarantee. Rabobank was a very strong retail banker, so I thought we would be dealing in an isolated capacity, but that was ... once the decision had been taken to systemically guarantee. And I think, at a little bit to go to Deputy Doherty's question, once the decision had been taken to have NAMA it's very hard to take out a systemic decision. Just as you're going into a spiral, you can make your choices, you can decide I'm not going to be do this, I'm going to do ... it is harder, and you can get sucked into a systemic issue as well.

Thank you, Mr. Boucher. Deputy Higgins, ten minutes.

Mr. Boucher, at a group risk policy committee in January 2007, the minute states that within retail six senior business manager portfolios and 21 business manager portfolios were rated unsatisfactory - a doubling since March 2005, and the report emphasises a need for a structured credit training programme. Can you explain that, please?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Well, there was credit reviews done. We would have had, in business banking - I'd just come into the role, as the Deputy's aware - we would have had somewhere between 250 and 300 managers that were rated on an ongoing basis, and we had a credit review who go and rated them, to credit stance, credit policies, the number had increased. That number, and the credit skills, were still lacking. During the course of 2006 we had had rapid growth, as of our testimony and is recorded in the documents of, I think it's B4, page 25. In 2008, it was noted there had been a significant improvement, and I bought in from Ulster Bank people I knew had skills to help.

Okay. So these senior business managers and business managers, their unsatisfactory rating, did that relate to property loans?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I don't know if it related to property loans. It related to lending standards across their books. So it could have been to hairdressers, pubs and widget manufacturers could have ... there was not a, a delineation. Business bankers in retail, we didn't have a specialised property unit, so they could have been doing some property lending, but it could have been other lending.

Considering that property lending was beginning to take, or continuing to take such a high profile, should that not have been done at that meeting, to have a profile on exactly where the credit problems were with these people?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Well, it was their adherence to credit standards, so it was their adherence to documentation issues and equity release, seeing preconditions, I believe, and I still believe now. So if I saw that information now today that it ... would I have said is it because ... is it specifically related to their lending to hairdressers, property, - no. I would just say like they're not adhering to credit standards, credit policies. We need to help them with their credit skills, and we need to put in more rigid processes.

Mr. Richie Boucher

So one of the things that, as part of the rectification of those issues, I required that in business bank they put a higher part of a performance rating in adherence to credit standards.

Was the board made aware of this level of unsatisfactory reports regarding credit control?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I'm not aware of that. But the GRPC, the group risk policy committee, minutes were provided to the board, whether it was specifically drawn to the board's attention in January 2006, I don't know, I wasn't on the board.

The minute also states, Mr. Boucher, "A review of the Legal Services Unit identified a backlog of files, some with serious issues, which could expose the Bank to significant risks." Can you explain that?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think it's self-evident. There were ... the legal services unit was finding it difficult to deal with the volumes. It was also-----

Which volumes? Property loans?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Lending volumes in total. I don't ... I wouldn't characterise it as to do with property loans. As the minutes record or at a subsequent meeting, having come into the role, I said I wasn't comfortable and that I wanted much more. And in particular, what was happening was that some of the more complex business related loans - and some of them may be in property, some of them may be to export companies, etc., were taking up an inordinate amount of time in a legal services unit, which had been dealt with for more, say, bread and butter loans, and they were subsequently moved to external firms where there was a greater accountability, responsibility - we were paying them.

Going back to your point on property loans, as I've testified and as is evident, our haircuts we received on transfers to NAMA for documentation issues were extremely small. I think in the total context of €9.9 billion of transfers, our haircuts were about €20 million relating to documentation issues.

Okay. Yes, but the NAMA chairman in his evidence to this committee spoke about... I quote him:

The model did not appear to require a stringent approach by borrowers to analysing project feasibility. The safety zone of borrower equity usually existed only on paper. The result is that the borrower was typically not the first to lose.

Do you recognise the Bank of Ireland in here?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I recognise components of the Bank of Ireland.

Components, yes. Can I move on rapidly, Mr. Boucher, perhaps? In relation to state aid, you've spoken that ... you said here today that NAMA would make a profit from loans to the Bank of Ireland. Do you mean that the €5.6 billion that was paid by NAMA, that they will get more back than that, is that what you mean?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes.

But are you aware that NAMA, in testimony, said to this committee that it overpaid the banks by €10 billion, €32 billion in total, to all the concerned banks, rather than €22 billion if they had been left exposed in the capitalist marketplace?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Well on a mark-to-market basis that would have happened, potentially. We don't know. I mean, no one ... I don't know how anyone can actually extrapolate the figure of something that didn't happen, but on a mark-to-market basis-----

Well they gave quite a rationale in-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

But ... I would say in a general term I don't ... I can't quality the figure. If all the property loans of all the banks ... that was recognised by the British Government, it was recognised by the TARP, it was recognised by support schemes, if all the banks balance sheets had been marked to market. But if you mark-to-market a bank's balance sheet today, you could have a problem. So like let's be clear about this.

Mr. Boucher, you say as well that you repaid the recapitalisation. That's been repaid to the State.

Mr. Richie Boucher

We repaid the state aid.

Mr. Richie Boucher

And that's, Deputy ... that's been ... the arbiter on state aid is the European Commissioner.

Yes. Would you accept, or not, Mr. Boucher, that that repayment is far ... far from makes up the collateral damage to the economy, in general, that was caused by the bubble, and the role of the banks in creating a crash in the crisis, for example, damage to public services, to Exchequer funding, austerity on citizens, that there was a much wider collateral damage caused by what happened in the banks? Is that true or not?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Well my testimony is my job in Bank of Ireland. I can't speak for the banks as a whole. I recognise that I said it at the time when I came into the role. Taxpayers shouldn't have had to support Bank of Ireland, that taxpayer support that went to Bank of Ireland at that time. Notwithstanding, Deputy, as I should point out, that we also held Irish Government bonds, and when we got the NAMA money, we bought Irish Government bonds. We partially bought them as a hedge. So it was at least cash flow neutral to the State. But, Deputy, I am extremely conscious that at that time that the capitalisation was provided to Bank of Ireland, that that was taxpayers' money that could have been used for other things.

Yes. In relation to that, Mr. Boucher, then can I ask you, going into the future, where in the annual report 2014 Bank of Ireland you refer to €1.2 billion deferred tax asset and that you hoped that that would be recognised in full, does that mean that you can against the profits into the next several years, you can write off your losses by not paying corporation tax to the State?

Mr. Richie Boucher

That's the accounting rules, yes.

Yes, so how much profit would you make then to ... before you have to start paying?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Well, the corporation tax is 12.5%.

Mr. Richie Boucher

But it's also a mix of UK and Ireland, so it's about one third UK, two thirds Ireland. In testimony to committee last week I pointed out that, outside of corporation tax, in 2014, Bank of Ireland would have paid directly to the State approximately €175 million in taxes through PRSI etc. and we would have collected seven hundred and-----

I know, but in relation to tax and profits, Mr. Boucher, would it be true to say that, roughly, the next €9 billion in profits ... you won't have to pay any tax because of the deferred tax asset of €1.2 billion?

Mr. Richie Boucher

To ... in terms of our deferred tax assets in Ireland and the UK, if you've incurred a loss under the tax rules and the accounting rules, then you can ... you get an alleviation for that loss. That's the system.

Yes. Do you think ... would you understand if the taxpayers found it extremely galling that after a bank had been bailed out it has now a further €1.2 billion write-off of corporation tax that might help to make up some of the damage that many people felt was done by the collapse?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Well the taxpayers have got significantly more back from Bank of Ireland than they invested.

Okay. Last question so, Mr. ... or, Chairperson, is this. Mr. Boucher, in ... sorry, in 2007 you wrote a letter to Dublin City Council in relation to the Jury's Berkeley Court site ... it was being attempted to be developed by Mr. Dunne, and you said, I quote, "Dear Sir, I refer to the above and write to confirm my strong support for this landmark proposal which I believe will significantly benefit the city of Dublin and its citizens through helping enhance the concept of a living city and providing buildings of significant architectural merit befitting Ireland of the 21st century." And you signed it, "Richie Boucher, chief executive, Retail Financial Services Ireland". Is it usual for banks to involve themselves in the planning process on behalf of developers?

Mr. Richie Boucher

No, that letter was a mistake. It was one of the many stupid things I've done.

Were other representations made by Bank of Ireland for ... in relation to developers?

Mr. Richie Boucher

No. Not that I ... not that I can recall.

Why was it made in this case?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I don't have the same immunity as-----

I'm sorry, Mr. Boucher?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I don't have the same immunity as the committee does.

Okay, that's answered. Senator Michael D'Arcy, ten minutes.

Thank you Chairman. Mr. Boucher, you're very welcome. NAMA has highlighted the issues in relation to valuations and the veracity of security and titles. Can you comment on why your internal controls never highlighted these issues as a problem during your tenure? And the document, the core documents I'm using-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

I ... Deputy, I'm sorry I ... would it be possible for you to repeat the question? I couldn't hear you, I'm sorry.

Sure. NAMA have highlighted the issues in relation to valuations and the security and titles involved that were transferred from NAMA ... from yourselves to NAMA. Can you comment on why your internal controls did not highlight those concerns?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Well, I-----

The documents that I'm using are BOI - B4, pages 27 to 31.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Well, I think if I go back to my testimony on NAMA, and the verifications by NAMA is the level of discounts that we suffered and incurred on documentary issues in terms of transferring €9.9 billion loans, were very low. So, like, in that context, we suffered about €20 million. I think roughly half of that was in relation to specific transaction. We had a considerable dispute with NAMA as to whether or not we agreed with that. They made the rule and took that. So as a factual matter, as a matter of fact, from Bank of Ireland's perspective, the level of discounts we suffered in transferring loans to NAMA, or that NAMA imposed on us, was extremely low.

Mr. Richie Boucher

That was the discount on the transfer, it wasn't to do with documentation.

And the documentation ... why ... the question I'm asking you is, why did your internal controls not raise that issue directly with you?

Mr. Richie Boucher

But, sorry, Deputy, I've actually, hopefully, answered that question on documentation. It's a different ... so of the 43% discount ... of the 43%, I would say the discount, and I'm just doing the sums in my head, is about 0.0013%, 0.0014%.

Okay. Mr. Boucher, in terms of ... you said the biggest mistake you made was in relation to the funding of the mortgage book in the UK. Is that correct?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I said if I looked ... I mean we made a number of mistakes, but if I say it was the biggest liquidity mistake and was the biggest issue that we had to focus on, because it required an entire change in our business model, yes.

Yes, and document BOI - Vol. 1, B1, page 23, Funding and Liquidity, this should be up on your screen. This document-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

I beg your ... it's not quite up yet, Deputy.

Mr. Richie Boucher

I prefer it on the screen rather than transcribing it, if that's okay?

Mr. Richie Boucher

But perhaps if you can continue the question and if I need to refer to the screen I will do so-----

Funding and Liquidity, 3.1, "The single biggest strategic mistake the Bank made, in common with a large number of banks throughout the world, was to become over-reliant on wholesale funding to grow its loan assets particularly outside its core franchises". That document is contrary to what you're saying was the biggest mistake. Could you ... if you see it there, Funding and Liquidity, 3.1.

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think it's exactly what we said. I've said I thought that was the biggest mistake and I think that's ... if I read out the testimony I gave, I think, to Deputy McGrath, I said I thought it was the biggest single mistake, this is a document I signed, it had to be approved by the Government before it went to the Commission and it says "The single biggest strategic mistake the Bank made, in common with a large number of banks throughout the world, was to become over-reliant on wholesale funding to grow its loan assets particularly outside its core franchises". And that was my assessment as a member of a team who made the mistake, I ... when ... I came into my role I had to ensure that we, as a bank, recognise we made mistakes. That I recognised and all of my colleagues recognise we had made mistakes. I personally felt that was a very important part of the recovery and recuperation process, so I believe that. That is a belief statement that is not an absolute factual matter that I could ever verify, that was my personal belief.

On that same page, Mr. Boucher, it says that the amount of the reduction in wholesale funding is €69 billion that the bank were using. Was it a €69 billion mistake?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Well it didn't cost us €69 billion, but the level was too big. I mean, you can't draw a comparison between a number and a number. What we have done is, we changed our business model, we've grown deposits in our core franchises, we've ... I've described what our new business model is without going into ratios or absolute numbers. €69 billion was too much and we've brought it down by €69 billion.

Okay, can I just move on page 35 in the same document and it's a line that I use with Mr. Goggin, in all the Bank of Ireland documents a term cropped up continually and that was to protect the franchise. Are you aware of the term that was used?

Mr. Richie Boucher

It's a well-known business term, yes.

And on page 35, where there is an assessment of your competitors and the fourth paragraph on that page, we are discussing the 100% mortgages that we discussed earlier and other products, we're discussing "hero" products. Was Bank of Ireland's 100% mortgage a hero product? Fourth paragraph, page 35-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

Like I said, that document was before I came into my role.

Mr. Richie Boucher

But the concept of a hero ... actually I don't know whether it was chosen. The concept of a hero product is products you market strongly. My reading of the documentation provided ... other document provided to the committee has pointed out that the vast focus was on a lower LTV mortgage but that the 100% was part of it. In terms of the question of franchise, banks and any company will always try and protect its franchise. I am on the record, in my role as chief executive of the bank, is that we will not follow some business models. They might prove to be correct but we will not follow some pricing and other business models. We have competitors who give away product for free, I don't believe that's a sustainable business model. We might lose market share, we might lose customers over those decisions. Those decisions might be right or might be wrong but I don't believe that a franchise argument should override a sustainability or viability argument.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Decisions were taken to protect a franchise. I don't think they were taken to override it but now, our new structure is, is that risk, and it was pointed out in the Oliver Wyman document, pointed out in other documents, is we set a risk appetite statement so risk that constructed the group, the business model, is the boundary under which strategy is done.

Mr. Richie Boucher

It was ... I've jumped and I was a member of the team that made that mistake, so I'm very conscious of it.

But did protecting the franchise overrule the risk?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I don't believe it overruled it but I think now we have much greater clarity that the franchise argument must be done within the risk appetite, that the risk appetite doesn't sit beside it, the franchise sits within it.

Mr. Boucher, you've presented before the finance committee previously and the question of moral hazard has been raised with you and in terms of debt forbearance, has your position in Bank of Ireland altered at all in terms of debt forbearance?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I gave testimony to the committee, the finance committee last week and that's on the public record. I don't really have anything further to say. I'm here to discuss to a period up to 2013, Senator. But my presentation and documentation, the transcript of my presentation last week to the finance committee is available to anyone.

Okay and that was up to 2013, from 2013 to date-----

No, from 2013 to date is outside the scope-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

But to help the Senator-----

The question I'm asking-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

-----that was the position up to 2013. The position ... our current position was in accordance with the testimony I've given.

Okay, can I ask, Mr. Boucher, in terms of debt forbearance for corporate write-down including in our terms of reference which is to end of 2013-----

Within our terms of reference, yes.

Did Bank of Ireland provide corporate write-down debt forbearance for corporate entities within the terms of reference of today's hearing, which is to the end of 2013?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Well, as I disclosed at the finance committee yesterday, as a matter of public record we've done debt-for-equity swaps.

Have you done debt forbearance?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Debt-for-equity swaps.

Has there been any write-down with Bank of Ireland for corporate entities?

Mr. Richie Boucher

If the corporate entity is gone, then the debt is written off. So, a corporate entity, as a limited liability company, if you have-----

Senator-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

If a corporate entity is gone, you write it off. But an accounting write-off is different from a continued desire to recover the money, so if an entity is gone you write it off.

And can I ask you, Mr. Boucher, how you reconcile the moral hazard that you use in terms of the mortgage-----

Final question, Senator.

Final question - that in terms of the mortgage, no debt forbearance versus what you have done for corporate debt forbearance-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

Which is a debt-for-equity swap but we have participation in the upside.

Thank you very much. If I could just return to just something that Senator D'Arcy dealt with you there, it's in core document B1, page 23. I don't want to go into the commentary with regard to the mistake and just look for you to repeat that, there is a certain "stucktiveness", I could probably use the word, to go into the night the banking guarantee with inquiry members and there is a full picture of that, that's actually required but there ... a fundamental part of this inquiry, Mr. Boucher, is to find out what actually went wrong. On item 3.1, there is admission that a very large or a single strategic mistake was made by the bank. Maybe if you could explain to us how the mistake was actually made, so we can draw some learning going into the future in that regard.

Mr. Richie Boucher

The thought process and why that strategy was implemented, Chairman? Yes, I think and these are strategies that went back to 2001, 2002, I obviously joined the bank, I implemented strategy, I ... subsequent to 2006 I was part of that strategy but there was a belief that we should diversify outside of Ireland, that ... I believe that you obviously have to fund yourself, we didn't have natural customer deposits, long-standing customer relationships, branch networks etc. and as a belief how we could do that it. So it is a belief that you could get your loans, you could bundle them and you could sell them on - I would not sell them on. You could use them as collateral, so you'd get a group of mortgages etc,. use them as collateral and you'd raise funding from the market for that. That was a model that was being done for ... and is still done. It was a belief, you know, so there was an investigation of the depth of those markets, what were other people doing, you know, what was the advice, the best advice. It was considered at that time an appropriate model to grow your business.

As it transpired, when the markets freeze or when, like I said, you had particular technical issues in certain markets and that, the money is not available. Core customer deposits, franchise deposits, where people provide you with money because it's part of their day-to-day banking activities, etc., is a much better model. So, if I go to the UK, so this was our mistake, I think it was our biggest mistake with the UK, what we have done since is we've incorporated in the UK, we gather our deposits, primarily, in our Northern Ireland business, it's self-funded so that the customer franchise in Northern Ireland funds the personal lending business and corporate lending in Northern Ireland. In Great Britain, so that's England and Wales really for us, we gather deposits through our partnership with the post office in a separately incorporated subsidiary and we grow assets within that. We didn't do that, we didn't have those core customer deposits, it was a massive mistake.

So all the behaviour that you are talking about now which is currently in place is obviously based on a more prudential approach and a reduction of exposure and risk. Why wasn't that awareness there at the time?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think there was a ... it's hard to actually go back, but I think there was an element of a recognition diversification was good, a, "How do we deal ... how do we do that?" I think that's a reasonable thought process. "How are other people doing it?" You know, "What's the market practice?" You know, "What does this look like?" So, that belief that, you know, this was a good thing to do. I mean, I would say that our model now is a model of 100 years ago.

Yes, okay.

Mr. Richie Boucher

And I believe that in the period up to ... from the late '90s, even if I go back to my own career, too much of a belief in ratios, in models, computer-driven processes and less of a challenge on, like, "Does this actually make sense?"

Okay. And was there any influence with regard to remuneration or bonuses or anything else?

Mr. Richie Boucher

The growth of the company influenced remuneration, yes, of course.

Okay. So, that was a cultural influence, or would you reckon it was a cultural influence?

Mr. Richie Boucher

It's hard to say, like. Personally, personally-----

Yes, yes.

Mr. Richie Boucher

-----you know, I'm not sure that remuneration is the reason that you do certain things. You do it because you believe in your business, you believe it the right thing to do. Remuneration is a component of incentivisation, but I ... it wasn't my experience that people did things just because they were going to get paid more or less, but nevertheless you can't also say that remuneration wasn't an aspect of why people had ambition to grow their business, but I think it was a component but I don't think it was a driver.

Thank you. Senator?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Or it may have been one of the drivers, but I don't think it was the single one.

Mr. Richie Boucher

That's my personal opinion. I can't speak for other people.

Thank you, Mr. Boucher. Senator O'Keeffe?

Thank you, Chair. Mr. Boucher, you acknowledged to Deputy Higgins that the letter that he referred to was a mistake. Did you write any other letters of that kind about any other developers or consortia or anything of that kind?

Mr. Richie Boucher

No.

That was a one-off?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes.

Did any of your colleagues at the bank write any letters of that kind?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Not that I'm aware of.

Not that you're aware of?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes.

Okay. In 2014, last year, you were at an IBEC conference and RTE reported you as having said, when you were asked about the bank's property lending during the boom, you said, "Obviously everyone did things to different degrees, but when there is a wild party, even good girls get into trouble." What were you referring to there?

Mr. Richie Boucher

It was an unfortunate analogy which I was trying to ... I've been-----

I'll give you an opportunity to clarify it this morning, Mr. Boucher.

Mr. Richie Boucher

I've been advised that, in the past, that I used too much jargon and corporate speak. I may have gone too far in trying to go the other way. I am learning in life to try and get a different balance between what I say ... I tried to do it, it was ... some people took offence, I didn't mean to give offence to it. I was trying to give an analogy. It was an unfortunate use of moving away from my corporate speak.

But is it not-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

But if I got ... what I was really trying to say is that we might have thought we were ... we might have thought that our practice, our policies, were better. We knew there was a large lot of lending going on. We went along. Could we have left before midnight? Could we have left at 11 o'clock? Could we have left before the bar really opened? Yes, we could have. You do get caught up in things. That was the ... it was a ... I don't know what the word is, a mis-chosen analogy.

But was there a truth to the word "wildness" in the analogy?

Mr. Richie Boucher

There was a lot of ... there was a ... the markets, not just in Ireland, were very exuberant. Like, the subsequent crash has proved that. It's-----

Is "exuberant"-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

I don't think I've given a huge insight.

Is "exuberant" a posh word for wild?

Mr. Richie Boucher

It's ... yes. So, I just have to be careful. It was mad, you know. It was ... there was ... I mean, the chairman of the Federal Reserve said there's irrational exuberance in the markets.

Mr. Richie Boucher

I mean, we have dangers of exuberance in bond markets at the moment. You know, quantitative easing is creating issues in the bond markets. Whether that will happen today, tomorrow, next year, there is a bubble developing in bond markets.

Mr. Boucher, you've acknowledged errors and mistakes, you've talked about not recognising risk, you've said yourself you accept your share of responsibility. Would you like to apologise either to the shareholders or to the people of Ireland for what you did within the bank and your role in that?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I have done that. I continue to do that. One of my ways of dealing with that is putting action behind words. The actions over the past six-and-a-half years are a recognition of the mistakes I made and my responsibility and a huge drive I have to restructure the bank, to make it a sustainable, viable institution. I've been particularly personally conscious of the history of the bank. I joined the bank ten years ago, it's a 230-year history. I never wanted to be the person that saw that bank demise. I recognised that we had a huge responsibility to taxpayers and I haven't gone around talking in pious terms about, like, what I see other people, you know, "Maybe the taxpayers maybe get their money back at some indefinite date in the future, you know, when the curlew cries three times at Newgrange." I have said we must put in a definitive plan. It's in our commercial interest to repay.

No, forgive me, because I didn't see the words "sorry" in your statement and I just wanted to make that clear.

Mr. Richie Boucher

I've made my personal apology but I actually believe that you must back words with action. I hope I've demonstrated, in the past six-and-a-half years, I've put action behind words.

Just one thing ... Mr. Goggin ... I raised with him the assurance that he had given to your board - that's book 1, Vol. 1, page 13 and 14 - that he said that there was a contingency plan that had been put in place by the Financial Regulator. When I asked him about it during his testimony, he said he had never actually seen one, so I'm just wondering whether you ever saw a contingency plan by the Financial Regulator?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I've given in testimony earlier, Senator, that I was shocked on a weekend when there was meant to be a contingency plan for a particular ... I'm sorry, there was meant to be a contingency plan for a particular institution. I was shocked at the lack of ... we were asked to attend a meeting, we were asked to come up with a plan and there was no ... not even an identification of the problem, so it was ... my personal view is there wasn't a contingency plan, based on what I saw, but there might have been but it wasn't evident. By the testimony of what I saw, as, like I said, I wasn't ... I'm sorry, I have to go back to analogies, I wasn't on the pitch but I was in the dugout on the night of the 29th.

Mr. Richie Boucher

I didn't see evidence that there was a thought-through plan. I mean, if a decision was made to cover subordinated debt by a loose comment an executive of one bank may or may not have made when he was in a very stressed scenario, that wouldn't have identified for me a thought-through process.

Were you present at the Anglo Irish Bank meeting with Bank of Ireland that took place on the day of the guarantee?

Mr. Richie Boucher

No, I actually didn't know about that meeting until about 9 o'clock that night.

Were you present at the Central Bank meeting earlier that day?

Mr. Richie Boucher

That was a one-to-one between our chairman and the chairman of the Central Bank which ... I'm sorry, not the chairman, the-----

Chief executive?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Mr. Hurley, yes.

What was your ... why do you believe the Bank of Ireland asked to see the Taoiseach and the Government that night, because we're just still not quite clear what the request was?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I ... to be honest, I'm not sure whether there was a ... I think there was a, I think there was a belief that, like, the Government wasn't aware of the extent of the issues. There was a belief that the ... like, it wasn't explained to me. It was just said, "We're going". I mean, if I've learned, over my period of time, if you're going to meet a politician, you should have a pretty good idea in your mind what you're asking for, but, in fairness, like, we'd had the experience of Nationwide, what we'd seen at first hand, there were talks that morning about, you know, would we ... I understand, I wasn't at that meeting, would we consider Irish Permanent. Anglo had come in to us that afternoon to say, "We're going to default", that's effectively what they said, and my belief is, and my absolute belief is, that our chief executive and our chairman felt that they had to tell the Government something was going. If I read the testimony now, if I see that Mr. Gleeson has said that AIB had information that I don't think we had that day, I think our chairman decided they should ring up AIB and say, "Listen, we think we need to go to the Government. We think you should come." They agreed to go. But I don't think ... I wasn't conscious, as a member of ... a senior member of a committee-----

This is speculation on your behalf now, Mr. Boucher.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes, I'm giving a belief statement.

Okay, a belief statement, okay.

Mr. Richie Boucher

And I hope it's not pejorative or anything like that.

Yes, yes.

Mr. Richie Boucher

If it is, I would apologise.

No, no, no, continue.

Mr. Richie Boucher

But I've been asked my general impression.

Mr. Richie Boucher

But if the Chairman would prefer me to stop?

No, no, no, continue.

Mr. Richie Boucher

My genuine ... my genuine impression was that the desire of our chairman and chief executive was to point out, like, were they really aware that a significant bank, perhaps not systemic, I don't know, but a very significant bank was going to default the next day.

Can I ask you about Exhibit B3? This is a document you gave us yourself in your own statement. It seems to me to be a very serious document, in which it ... it shows the immediate actions that your own bank was taking at the time. You were sell ... you were continuing to run down books, various books and portfolios, you were looking at, sort of, how to ... basically how to save yourselves. You also have a big long list of immediate ... of actions ... management actions that might be taken, some of which are quite serious and involve selling off various businesses and so on. But in that document you ... there's a very long reference to the whole idea of a bank which you believe is about to fail, and I'm assuming it's Anglo Irish Bank, on page 13 of Exhibit B3. You say: "We assume that the institution concerned is ... Headquartered and supervised in Ireland ... Not our major indigenous [customer] ... [and is] A publicly quoted company". So is it Anglo Irish that you're referring to?

Mr. Richie Boucher

What we did was we put up for ... our belief is ... rather than identifying a bank, we said, like ... what's the concept, a straw ... straw person, straw man. We said, "If this was the scenario."

Mr. Richie Boucher

So we said ... so what we tried to do for ourselves on the board ... we'll do it to a much more sophisticated level and we said, "Let us presume that this was to happen or could happen; what would be necessary for us to do?" I'm not sure did we identify that ... let us presume it's a bank. I think the management, because I was involved in that presentation, decided, "Let's not get into a debate as to who it might be, let us just make a presumption that not ourselves, not AIB, but one of the large Irish banks goes bust and [you know] what would be the actions we need to contemplate."

But, Mr. Boucher, obviously this document, the Financial Market Developments And Scenarios - Strategic Implications, written in September 2008, quite clearly shows the Bank of Ireland under a lot of pressure, struggling with its own liquidity, looking around at the various implications of other banks, becoming insolvent, a hard crash, and so on. What was going on in Bank of Ireland in the ... I mean, I don't know, it doesn't say what date this was written, but obviously it's clear from this-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think that-----

-----that it was a very serious-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think that that paper, to help you, Senator, I don't have the exact date, but from memory it would have been the first or second week in September.

Mr. Richie Boucher

I can't remember exactly, but it would have been around about ... it was certainly after the weekend of the Irish Nationwide.

But, is it fair to say that it's quite revealing of the seriousness within the bank at very specific levels?

Mr. Richie Boucher

We were deeply concerned. We were deeply concerned at what was going on. We were obviously concerned at our own position. And to help put it into a context of what would we have to do ... and like we do today, so we run ... I've provided a 175-page document of the scenarios we run today, in that we said, "Okay, if this happens." So rather than to have the debate of who it is, we said let's just focus on the actions which would potentially have to be considered if a large bank went bust. So ... but we felt that banks could be going bust around us so, I beg your pardon, to answer your question: did we think it was a possibility that one of our competitors, an Irish-quoted competitor could go bust? Yes, we did.

Did the Government know about-----

I need to ask you to wrap up-----

-----answer a final question.

Did the Government know, obviously when you went in, did the Government ... was the Government made aware of the sorts of things Bank of Ireland was doing itself that are outlined in this document to keep itself going? Was that made clear to Government, to the Department of Finance, to the Central Bank? Or was this a private document that you kept to yourself?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I'm not sure. I'm not conscious that document and those scenarios were shared with the Government or the regulator.

Okay, that-----

To be clear, sorry, a Chathaoirligh... it's actually not the scenarios that I'm talking about here, it's actually what you were doing yourselves-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

We wouldn't I, I-----

-----that you'd talk about your own immediate actions on a page-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

I don't believe we would have articulated to the Government or the regulator what ... the potential actions we were taking or what we were actually taking.

So the seriousness of those actions were not shared?

Mr. Richie Boucher

In September?

In, yes, in September?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes, yes, I mean, and I think as we've given in subsequent documents, in subsequent interactions with the Government, the regulator, we pointed out the business plan that we would be proposing to implement.

All right, thank you.

Mr. Richie Boucher

But sorry, Senator, in September ... I'm not conscious ... at that particular date, whether it was the first or second week in September, we went to the Government and said "We're gonna do this". I would be surprised if we did.

Okay. A Chathaoirligh, it might be worth asking Mr. Boucher if that can ever be clarified?

Because it is quite serious, I think, whether or not-----

Can I just summarise what's happened?

-----you might have?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I will ask a colleague and I will come back.

Okay, thank you very much, Mr. Boucher.

Okay. I just want to wrap up. I'll be inviting Deputy Murphy and Deputy McGrath in for five minutes of supplementaries to finish, but maybe just to ... there was a lot of discussion this morning, Mr. Boucher, between the board and the subsidiary boards and the transference of information and so forth. Maybe if I could put the question to you, and in two different stages: first of all, did you think the board of Bank of Ireland was as good as it should have been in terms of how it operated and how it pulled together the different information streams, decision-making processes that were taking place at subsidiary levels to the main board?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think they were genuine people who thought they were doing their best. I think that they felt that they were discharging their responsibilities, and I was a member of the board.

Mr. Richie Boucher

So, you know, I can't exactly say what everyone else felt, but that was my impression. But, clearly, the level of information, the understanding of risk, the management of information, and not just at board level, let me be straight about this, Chairman, but also within a management team, that we have an understanding of the correlation of risk, the influence of liquidity and capital and that, did we have the understanding then that we have now? No. Do we have a process now to provide that information? Yes.

And the board subsequently changed during your period as the chief executive officer as well, yes?

Mr. Richie Boucher

That's correct.

The composition of it? And a part of that change of the composition of the board saw new members coming in, significant investors such as Wilbur Ross and other people. Was that change of personnel and personality ... was that reflected in a change of culture, management style, and do you have any reflection and thoughts on how that actually impacted on the day-to-day operation of Bank of Ireland?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Well, I think that, you know, there was a transition, where people moved from ... so I would say that the board members in September 2008 embraced very quickly an understanding of the ... of the issues and mistakes the bank had made, and were strong advocates for change. There is a greater diversification on our board in terms of experience levels and international experience. A lot of them have financial services ... we give a lot more ... management take a greater responsibility for what we call the education process. So our board members spend a lot of time understanding and getting presentations - outside of normal board meetings - on liquidity, capital, risk. And I think it's a major responsibility of management to ensure that the board members have sufficient knowledge to challenge and to have an input. We have a lot of financial services expertise on the board; I think that's appropriate. I sometimes wonder ... if you have too much financial service expertise and you don't have someone who's just kind of saying yes, like, that's all ... seems to make sense in your jargon, but doesn't make real sense, so I think you need that balance on a board.

Okay, thank you. Deputy Murphy, five minutes, thank you.

Thank you, Chairman, and thank you, Mr. Boucher. I just want to come back to what we were discussing earlier about this dedicated property unit that you established in 2004. When you look now at the PwC Project Atlas report, and you look at what happened with NAMA, do you view the setting up of that unit as a mistake for the bank?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Well, just as I explained in my earlier testimony, that was part of a wider restructuring of corporate. It was a consequence rather than a deliberate, "We must do property". It was, like, we needed to restructure what ... corporate. We needed to also restructure risks that were being taken in retail which we felt should be taken in corporate. As it transpired, and if I listened to the testimony, and what I viewed in AIB, AIB were taking much higher property risks within their retail division than we were, and that subsequently turned out ...but, nevertheless, we had an over-focus on property. We focused on lending in a lot of other areas but we ended up having lent too much money to property.

Can I ask about the structure of this dedicated unit? Why was private banking included?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Because private banking was involved in lending for property-related purposes.

Exclusively at the time?

Mr. Richie Boucher

No, no, the private banking had a range of other activities. It was one of the services provided.

And if you could just explain to me what private banking is in terms of what Bank of Ireland offers? Is it a licensed credit institution?

Mr. Richie Boucher

No.

Mr. Richie Boucher

No, it's a descriptor.

Can you elaborate on that please? I don't understand the term.

Mr. Richie Boucher

I mean, we call different businesses under different brand names. It's a brand name.

It's a brand name?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes.

But it's not a licensed credit institution?

Mr. Richie Boucher

No.

Is it a separate entity then from the bank?

Mr. Richie Boucher

It's a brand name, Deputy. So, like, you know, we have different ... we operate under different offerings to customers, we call it different things. But it is under the Gulf Co. licence.

So it's just a point of presentation for the bank, if you like, to customers?

Mr. Richie Boucher

It's a differentiation in presentation to customers.

Is it the same as a car manufacturer having a series of different cars, or is this a separate company? I suppose this is what Deputy Murphy wants-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

It's not a licensed entity.

Are you asking is it a legal entity?

Mr. Richie Boucher

No, I don't think so but certainly it's not a licensed entity.

Okay. Would it have the same oversight that the rest of the bank would have in terms of the Central Bank?

Mr. Richie Boucher

There is a certain aspect of the bank, of that bank's activities which is the provision of fund management services, which is covered under what we call EMIR. And I'm sorry, it's an acronym, I can't remember exactly what is ... but it has something to do with securities. And that has a regulatory interface with the Central Bank of Ireland.

The Central Bank wouldn't overview the private banking section of Bank of Ireland?

Mr. Richie Boucher

It would overview all of us. What happens today is the Central Bank will have insight into all of our activities. Do they have a specific focus on private banking today? I don't think so.

Has there ever been an investigation by an external agency into private banking in Bank of Ireland?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Back in ... in what time period are we talking about?

Up until and including 2013.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Like ... what ... I'm sorry-----

An external agency having an investigation into private banking, to look at their operations, say, as to what the bank provides.

Mr. Richie Boucher

Where there's been internal audits and that, I am not conscious ... that from time to time we refer specific cases, as we are required to do, if we suspect money laundering or if we suspect there has been a fraud either within the bank or outside the bank. We refer ... we bring our investigation to ... first of all, we ... our practice is if we suspect a fraud or if we suspect money laundering, we are required to advise the authorities, we are required to advise people and from time to time we have provided all of our internal documentation. I am conscious of that.

Okay, thank you. I just want to move to some of the evidence NAMA gave us when they were before us in relation to how NAMA debtors and the banks were managed once NAMA was announced. And one of the things that NAMA told us was that the extent to which NAMA, the banks, sorry, were collecting income from things like office blocks or shopping centres where the banks themselves ... that was not being collected in the millions. And NAMA estimated that about 20% of income from investment assets was being mandated to the banks. About 80% of the income was being diverted away. NAMA said that it seems no one was following up on it and NAMA then went after that income. Was it the case in Bank of Ireland that you were not following up on this income?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think we were and to a greater extent than other people but I'm sure there were cases where we didn't.

And in those cases where you didn't, what ... why wouldn't you?

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think it was a ... we didn't have the proper procedures. So now what we have is a core requirement that would have been an implicit requirement, now it's a core requirement that we lend for investment property and there's rent, the rent must come into the rental account.

Mr. Richie Boucher

I think if I ... we ... it's ... I'm on record as well going even to the period 2013 for buy-to-let or RIP properties or whatever were called whatever they are or whatever the acronym is now ... so now buy-to-let properties ... rent diversion was a significant issue and was a cause so it's not investment property-----

What do you mean by rent diversion?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Rent diversion. So this is a retail property ... so a house or a flat, the customer was keeping the rent the tenant was paying and we have appointed rent receivers to make sure we get that rent.

Deputy, the final question.

Mr. Richie Boucher

So I think there was a, more of a looseness in the buy-to-let area than in the commercial property lending but I'm sure there were aspects of that where it was not followed through.

Advances made to debtors once NAMA was announced that eventually went into NAMA. NAMA found that 17% of advances made by Bank of Ireland were not for commercial purposes and so were not repaid by NAMA, were not eligible under the scheme announced by the Central Bank at the time.

Mr. Richie Boucher

They have subsequently paid us back some of that money. I don't think that they have agreed with that subsequent and we are in a legal discussion with them.

I missed the first part of that, Mr. Boucher. Sorry, you think that NAMA has repaid some of that money since ... of the 17%-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes, and we're in legal discussion on the balance.

And can I just ask when that legal discussion began because we got this evidence only a few weeks ago----

Mr. Richie Boucher

I'm not sure ... This is a legal issue between ourselves and NAMA. I can't give any further testimony on this.

Thank you very much. Deputy McGrath.

Thank you, Chair. Mr. Boucher, just under the heading of counterfactuals, which you mentioned a while ago, if Anglo had been allowed to fail and in the absence of a bank guarantee, would Bank of Ireland have survived?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Senator O'Keeffe has pointed out, we looked at the scenario it wasn't necessary ... I believe, my personal view ...you know it's not ...

Mr. Richie Boucher

My personal view is that at that time - we have to also remember the time we were in, where the TARP had failed, there were banks collapsing all over the world. I believe if Anglo had had a disorderly process, it could have had very, very serious implications for the other banks and for the economy as a whole. Whether or not Anglo should have been brought into the guarantee ... if I could just expand a little bit ... I mean, I think there has been some commentary of Anglo being taken out. I have to remember that I noted at the time there was actually no mechanism ... you know in other jurisdictions you had "conservatory" which is the US term, in the UK they had ... there was actually no mechanism available to the State to how it took over a bank. I'm not sure nationalising a bank changed the problem .. you're changing the ownership. I note with Anglo, I mean, the period between the guarantee and Anglo being nationalised was three or four months, I don't think it changed things.

Yes. And if you had of -----

Mr. Richie Boucher

But I believe that the fall of Anglo, or collapse of Anglo in a disorderly fashion would have had serious implications in the market.

Even if the other four banks were guaranteed?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Yes, I think that's an interesting question. I think it probably would have been much more contained, yes.

Okay. Just on the issue of the subordinated debt as you know, Mr. Boucher, ultimately, in the guarantee there were €12.2 billion of dated subordinated debt included, of which Bank of Ireland had just under €5.2 billion. You may not have this detail to hand, but do you know how much of that fell due and was repaid during the two year guarantee window?

Mr. Richie Boucher

There was ... €750 million was redeemed in February 2010.

Mr. Richie Boucher

That was a ... a particular issue.

Redeemed at par?

Mr. Richie Boucher

Oh, I presume so, I don't know.

Mr. Richie Boucher

I'm sorry, I would say ... my presumption is was redeemed at par.

Mr. Richie Boucher

I doubt it wasn't, Deputy. I can absolutely verify that but I would be pretty sure that it was redeemed in par.

And you said in your opening statement that the bank generated capital of around €5 billion from the private sector through liability management exercises. Could that have been higher, perhaps by several hundred million if the date of subordinated debt was not ------

Mr. Richie Boucher

It might have been earlier, Deputy. I'm not sure the quantum had actually been changed because it was voluntary. Different processes, you know ... ultimately you ... because ours was always voluntary, the investor had to take a view that bonds were turning over. We found it easier once the guarantee had been removed because the bonds were trading much more quickly and you are moving it from natural holders to hedge funds and that who were taking a bet. If I could just confirm ... to help to your question ... the tier 1, we had €3 billion nominal converted into a gain of €2.2 billion equity ... and lower tier 2, €4 billion, which is €2.8 billion and the verification of that excludes €750 million of our redemptions.

Sure ... yes. Can I ask you how did the bank ever think it was going to make money from tracker mortgages?

Mr. Richie Boucher

We had a presumption, I think, that we would always be able to borrow at or near ECB rates and-----

How big a mistake was that assumption?

Mr. Richie Boucher

A very big mistake. You must always price your product based on the cost of your raw material, not of what you presume you might buy it. I don't think a farmer would sell milk on the basis of what he thinks it might cost. You know we made a basic mis-assumption of not aligning the pricing of our product to the cost of the raw material. We presumed we could get the raw material and we guaranteed the customer that we always thought we could get the raw material at different price ... it transpired we couldn't.

And it's not just your bank, of course, but did you ever estimate on behalf of Bank of Ireland what the cost to the bank was in engaging in tracker mortgages to the extent that you did?

Mr. Richie Boucher

If I look at the disclosures that we made today so even if-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

Our disclosure today is that the ... our average cost of funds right across the group from tier 2 capital down to our current accounts is about 1.03% to 1.04%. The yield, average yield on tracker mortgages is around about that. So at a gross margin basis ... but that doesn't take any recovery of costs, any provision for potential bad debts so tracker mortgages are still costing us money today as we speak, notwithstanding the fact that we have brought our cost of funds down. But it's not the gross margin cost.

But in the history of the bank over the last ten to 15 years, and I'm speaking from the bank's ... I'm asking from the bank's point of view not of course, the customers' point of view ... where does it rank in terms of mistakes that were made - property lending development, the UK liquidity, trackers-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

It would have been a significant but not that decisive an issue for the bank. We had a very large diversification of our income streams from other things, so we could bear it, but clearly it is costly to us, it's costly to our shareholders, but we have a contract with the customer, so we must observe those contracts.

Just one final question then, then I'm going to move immediately to the wrap-up. Just to ask Mr. Boucher, would the exclusion of subordinated debt have allowed Bank of Ireland to hold onto some of the subsidiaries they had to sell as part of the EU restructuring plan?

Mr. Richie Boucher

No I don't think so ... Chairman ... we were early into a restructuring plan. I think the Commission was taking a very doctrinaire approach at that time. We were required to sell certain businesses and we did negotiate in 2012 to substitute, so these are called punishment measures, moral hazard measures, to go back to your ... moral hazards - you got state aid, people must ... you must suffer. We were required to sell certain businesses. I would have preferred not to, but if we had not had clarity in our potential or existing investors' minds as to what the shape of the group would look like, and we hadn't done the deal with the Commission, I don't think we could have raised the capital to the extent we could. It's counterfactual but I ... in honest answer to your question, and my opinion is ... that ... it didn't influence ultimately because it was the state aid we got from the preference shares which brought the measures.

Okay. Thank you.

Chairman, can I ask you to explain, to the people out there listening, to explain the immunity issue? In response to a question I put to Mr. Boucher he says, "I don't have the immunity that members of the committee", but at the beginning you said, "The witness has absolute privilege", I think, so-----

Mr. Richie Boucher

In this jurisdiction.

I think it should just be explained to people who are listening to us.

Yes, Mr. Boucher has absolute privilege before this inquiry and this inquiry is taking place in the Irish State. Mr. Boucher does not have privilege outside the Irish State. That's it in summary.

Mr. Richie Boucher

And that's been pointed out to me.

So, what's the value of saying to people that the witness has absolute privilege if he hasn't?

In the Irish State he has absolute privilege.

I know, but any witness can then come and say, "Sorry -----"

Mr. Richie Boucher

Chairman, I answered very openly ... I have given very, witness statements, on broad issues, within my interpretation of this.

Mr. Richie Boucher

When it comes to a very specific customer issue, whether or not the work of the committee turns on that, I have tried to be as helpful as I can, but I have to point out I do not have that privilege outside this jurisdiction, and it has been pointed out to me. So I could be sued. Being straight about it. If the Chairman says, "You must answer that question because it is vital to the work of this committee", I will answer that question.

Okay, alright. I am going to bring matters to a conclusion now Mr. Boucher. The purpose of this inquiry is, as I have said in earlier engagements, is not just about learning the lessons from the past, but also applying some learning into the future. Do you have any final comments you'd like to add in that regard? And then I'll bring matters to a close.

Mr. Richie Boucher

No, I think ... you know ... in Bank of Ireland we made a lot of mistakes, we've worked very hard to repay the taxpayers. We can never fully repay in moral terms. We've tried to do it in financial terms. We've restructured our bank, we have a viable sustainable bank. Some of the lessons we learnt is not to follow a strategy we don't think appropriate. We are a strong bank. We hugely regret the loss a lot of people took on decisions we make, we hope that people can have now much more confidence and faith in how our bank will keep going forward, our contribution to the economy and the value we create for our shareholders, but we can never, never absolutely undo some of the moral issues that were a consequence of some of the decisions. We tried to do that financially. And ... I try to do my job in that context.

Okay Mr. Boucher. With that said I thank you for your participation and for your engagement with the inquiry today. I would now like to formally excuse you and in doing so propose that we suspend until 2.30 p.m. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 1.05 p.m. and resumed at 2.38 p.m.

Ulster Bank - Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Okay, so we're now proposing that we go back into public session. Is that agreed? Agreed.

So the committee of the bank inquiry is now back into public session for session 2 of today's hearings with Mr. Cormac McCarthy, former group chief executive and director of Ulster Bank. The Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis is now resuming in public session and can I remind members and those in the public gallery to ensure that their mobile devices are switched off.

Today, we continue our hearings with senior bank executives who had roles during the crisis. This afternoon, we will now hear from Mr. Cormac McCarthy, former group chief executive and director, Ulster Bank. Mr. McCarthy was group chief executive and director, Ulster Bank Group, from 2004 to 2011. Previously, he was head of finance and then chief executive at the First Active plc. Mr. McCarthy is currently a director and chief financial officer of Paddy Power plc, a position he has held since October 2012. Mr. McCarthy, you are very welcome before the committee this afternoon.

Before I hear from the witness, I wish to advise the witness that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If you are directed by the Chairman to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to do so, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence.

You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. I would remind members and those present that there are currently criminal proceedings ongoing and further criminal proceedings are scheduled during the lifetime of the inquiry, which overlap with the subject matter of the inquiry. Therefore, I would urge the utmost caution should be taken not to prejudice those proceedings. Members of the public are reminded that photography is prohibited in the committee room. To assist the smooth running of the inquiry, we will display certain documents on the screens here in the committee room. For those sitting in the Gallery, those documents will be displayed on the screens to your left and right and members of the public and journalists are reminded that these documents are confidential and they should not publish any of the documents so displayed. The witness has been directed to attend this meeting of the Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis and you have been furnished with booklets of core documents. These are before the committee and will be relied upon in questioning and form part of the evidence of the inquiry. So with that said, if I can now ask the clerk to administer the oath.

The following witness was sworn in by the Clerk to the Committee:
Mr. Cormac McCarthy, former Group Chief Executive, Ulster Bank.

Thank you again, Mr. McCarthy, for being with us this afternoon, and if I could invite you to make your opening statement please.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Thank you, Chairman. Good afternoon Chairman, members of the inquiry. I welcome the opportunity to appear before the inquiry and I'll be as helpful as I can to assist you in your work. I've submitted a witness statement to the inquiry which addresses the lines of inquiry, as requested.

As you all know, Ulster Bank is a universal bank operating primarily in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. It is owned by the Royal Bank of Scotland. My own background, as it relates to the inquiry, as the Chairman said, is as follows. In 1998 I joined First Active from Woodchester Investments as head of finance. Two years later, I was appointed chief executive. Following the acquisition of First Active by Ulster Bank in January 2004, I was appointed to the position of chief executive of the enlarged Ulster Bank Group. I left Ulster Bank and Royal Bank of Scotland in May 2011. The objective of Royal Bank of Scotland in combining RBS ... Ulster Bank with First Active was to form a credible third force in Irish bank ... in the Irish banking market, to enhance competitiveness and to challenge the dominance of AIB and Bank of Ireland in particular. You will all recall that the need for a credible third force in Irish banking was strongly promoted by politicians, the media, business groups and consumer advocacy groups.

As chief executive of the Ulster Bank Group, I was responsible for all of the operations of the bank. On assuming the role I was tasked with combining and integrating a management team from Ulster Bank and First Active, whilst maintaining the two brands, working with RBS to move the bank's technology platform to those of RBS, developing and executing a strategy to avail of the growing Irish economy and creating a real universal banking alternative to AIB and Bank of Ireland. I was very much enthused by this opportunity, believing that by being a part of RBS, the Ulster Bank and First Active combination could bring something to the Irish market that was both needed and unique. The scale and sophistication of RBS, allied to the on-the-ground capability and experience of the existing indigenous banks, underpinned the opportunity. At that time, all of the economic indicators in Ireland pointed towards sustained growth. I was assured by RBS following my appointment as CEO that capital and funding support would be made available to support growth, obviously with the appropriate group risk framework. I'd like to spend a couple of minutes explaining the governance structure at Ulster Bank Group, as it does differ from the other banks appearing at this inquiry.

The RBS governance model which was in place before the First Active acquisition remained unchanged. Integral to this was significant RBS oversight of and involvement in the Ulster Bank business, particularly where credit, regulatory and operational risk was concerned. Ulster Bank management in each of these areas had solid and dotted reporting lines into senior RBS management. This also applied to the CFO, the head of HR and the head of internal audit. Members of RBS senior management were either formal members of Ulster Bank boards or committees or had rights of attendance. In addition, the Ulster Bank Group had a board of directors comprising independent, experienced and high-calibre people. This board also had RBS representative members. The chairman of the board had open access to the chairman and chief executive of RBS and engaged with them regularly, independent of Ulster Bank management. Ulster Bank Group had three legal entities in Ireland, each of which had a separate board of directors with independent chairpersons and non-executive directors. The bank had what is called a high-level controls framework, which underpinned the RBS governance model. The governance structure at Ulster Bank Group was identical to the governance of all RBS subsidiaries. It was, and is, entirely appropriate for a bank with a single shareholder. Having both a local board and RBS governance felt like we had the best of both worlds, with the benefit of being part of a significant global bank and the comfort of having local boards populated by respected and well known business and public figures.

The approach to strategy was also dictated by the same high-levels control framework. This included, amongst other things, an annual off-site strategy session with the board where the proposed business strategies and five-year plans were reviewed and challenged. The outcomes were fed into the RBS strategic planning and budgetary process, which was a detailed and rigorous exercise in itself. Performance against plan was closely monitored by RBS on a monthly and quarterly basis. The business plans were constantly evolving, based on detailed reporting and forecasting. And this was subject to detailed engagement between myself, our CFO and the RBS CEO and CFO. I was required to report directly to the RBS board annually on Ulster Bank strategy and performance. In a nutshell, the bank's strategy was to grow all aspects of our retail business and corporate business throughout Ireland, North and South, availing of strong economic conditions and positive indicators. Each of us is looking ... each of us in the room is looking back at the period between early 2000 and 2008 with the benefit of knowing what happened. It is a sobering perspective, particularly given the impact the outcome has had on so many people's lives. It is, however, important to consider what the prevailing perspective actually was back in 2004 to put in proper context the development and adoption of strategies and decisions. All of the economic indicators in 2003 to 2007 regarding the demand for housing in particular over the median ... medium term were positive. This included underlying demographics, particularly in the household formation bracket, numbers per household, economic growth, migration and interest rates. It was estimated in 2003 that a minimum of 40,000 housing units a year would be required through the period to 2010, following which there would be a lower but still significant ongoing requirement. In aiming to become a genuine third force in Irish banking, Ulster Bank lent too much money to too many people on the basis of assumptions which turned out to be seriously flawed. This was not to say that we adopted a cavalier or reckless approach to banking, we didn't. What is clear is that our strategy, while genuine in its motives and ambition and backed by one of the worlds largest banks, was ultimately proven the have been ill-judged and mistaken in the light of what transpired in 2008 and beyond. I deeply regret that this happened while I was chief executive of Ulster Bank. I'd like to spend a couple of minutes guiding you through the banks approach to risk and credit.

Business divisions in Ulster Bank were given general, non-specific growth targets that were to be achieved within acceptable risk policies, appetite parameters and lending caps. Hence, as a full service bank, there was no formal sector-specific lending focus. Sector risk appetite over the period was set out initially at a high level. Appetite didn't set limits but articulated the bank's view of a sector which influenced business development. Over time, sector reviews and appetite statements became more detailed and prescriptive. The only property-related portfolio cap was in respect of speculative lending on commercial property. This was set at 3% of total loans and this cap was adhered to throughout my time in the bank. The Ulster Bank Group had a risk policy and controls committee. Policies were structured around rules and guidelines. Rules had to be followed and if breached, were strictly subject to exception reporting and higher level approval. Guidelines which were exceeded had to be justified. All credit policies were subject to annual review. Under the Ulster Bank credit committee and delegated authority policy, the most significant credit risks were presented to the most senior credit committee for approval. Delegated authorities to other committees were based on a combination of the aggregated amount of facilities and the borrower's credit grade. Credit authorities for the credit committees were approved by the RBS risk committee. Loans above certain thresholds had to be submitted to an RBS credit committee for approval.

In retail banking, Ulster Bank branches had no lending authority and every loan application was referred directly to credit. First Active branch managers had authority to approve mortgage lending up to certain limits, subject to policy rules. A detailed process was put in place to deal with exceptions to lending policy. All policy rule exceptions had to be reviewed and approved by the appropriate credit authority as set out in the policy. Exceptions within retail, were reported monthly to risk policy and controls committee and RBS Group credit risk and also presented to the relevant board. Responsibility for monitoring sector concentration risk rested with the risk policy and controls committee. Reports in this committee were presented to the board. The nature and purpose of concentration analysis evolved throughout the years to 2008.

In 2004 and '05 residential lending, commercial real estate and construction accounted for over 60% of the bank's lending portfolio. We did introduce a sector exposure framework in 2005 to develop a more systematic approach to concentration analysis in line with Basel II and RBS Group policy requirements. In 2006 a policy of producing quarterly operational reports was introduced to provide a risk-focused approach to the management of sector concentrations in the lending book. This was supplemented by periodic reviews.

Stress testing was carried out as part of the Central Bank and regulator's biannual process. This examined baseline versus shock scenarios provided by the Central Bank and regulator. The return for July 2008, following shock scenario testing, showed minimum tier 1 and total capital ratios of 7.9% and 8.8%, compared to base case ratios of 8.6% and 9.9%. These stress-testing processes were supplemented by macroeconomic stress testing, involving input from Ulster Bank Group economics and John FitzGerald of the ESRI. They tested three global shock scenarios and John FitzGerald used the ESRI HERMES model to simulate the impact on Ireland over the period 2006 to 2010. The results of the medium-term shock scenario were used as a basis of the Ulster Bank 2007 ICAAP return to the Financial Regulator.

I would like to address the issue of the introduction of 100% mortgages, because I know that it's a concern of the inquiry. In 2004 the First Active mortgage market share was coming under pressure in the first-time buyer segment, where mortgage brokers in particular were gaining increased traction. Following market research and customer feedback, two things became clear to us. Firstly, whilst dated market maximum loans to value were already at 92%, some of our competitors were increasingly prepared to stretch LTVs to 100% or more to secure first-time buyers' business. Secondly, our customers were increasingly having to rely on expensive short-term debt, through credit cards and personal loans, to fund the excess between the maximum LTV and the house purchase price. We already had a 100% mortgage product in existence for some years for professionals on which our experience had been very good. Given this experience, together with factors to which I already referred and the positive economic and demographic backdrop, we decided to recognise the market reality through publicly introducing 100% mortgages in what we judged to be a controlled and restricted way - no exceptions policy, reduction in maximum term. Before launching it, we put the mortgage through a rigorous risk assessment program in RBS and we notified the regulator of our intention. In the three years between mid-2005 and mid-2008, Ulster Bank and First Active combined advanced €1 billion worth of these mortgages to approximately 4,000 customers, which amounted to 4% of our total mortgage lending in this period. The introduction of 100% mortgages had little impact on our market share of mortgage lending, for which the period between 2004 and 2008 remained at 16%. In reality, the collapse in house prices has been of such a magnitude that almost any mortgage written after 2004 with a loan to value in excess of 50% subsequently went into negative equity. With the benefit of hindsight, the introduction of 100% mortgages was a detrimental initiative which became all too apparent as property values collapsed.

I appreciate that much of the inquiry's work has been taken up with the bank guarantee and in my witness statement I have touched on the difficulties which it created for Ulster Bank. I should also confirm, Chairman, the first I knew about the guarantee was when I heard about it on the news on the morning of 30 September 2008 and I was surprised, since I had been in touch with the Financial Regulator on two occasions in the preceding two weeks because of the obvious stresses in the funding market. Following the putting in place of the guarantee, we immediately made significant efforts to address the difficulties this was causing us. In the end, we were afforded the opportunity to enter the scheme but the terms involved proved impossible for us.

In conclusion, Chairman, I can say to you today, hand on heart, that all of the decisions I made were made in good faith on the basis of the best information to hand at the time. I never anticipated the circumstances that transpired in 2008 and beyond and I was mistaken not to have done so. I greatly regret that decisions I made while chief executive of Ulster Bank have had the impact they have had on so many peoples' lives. Thank you, Chairman, I'm happy to take questions.

Thank you very much, Mr. McCarthy, for your opening statement. And if I can now invite Senator Sean Barrett to open the lead questioning. Senator, you have 25 minutes.

Thank you, Chairman, and welcome, Mr. McCarthy.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Thank you, Senator.

On the 100% mortgages, there was a dissident at the board, Mr. Livingstone, isn't that correct?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

That ... Mr. Livingstone attended the meeting as would RBS members generally and, yes, as the minutes note, he had some reservations.

He found supporting the proposal difficult. Did you get a response from the regulator?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

We had effectively a non-objection, Senator, so the regulator did not object. We engaged in some correspondence and dialogue with the regulator over a period of months, where the regulator raised some questions but essentially there was a non-objection to the product.

When you say over a number of months, how long was that correspondence?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Approximately six months, to the best of my recollection, Senator.

So after six months you proceeded on the basis he did agree?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

There was further dialogue. I mean, I think it's been a matter of record that the regulator in time imposed higher capital requirements on higher loan-to-value mortgages. So that sort of developed over time but, in terms of our own particular dialogue, it was roughly a six-month period.

And while ... the bailout for Ulster has come from the Royal Bank of Scotland, is that right?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

That is correct, Senator.

€14.3 billion between 2009 and 2013. Has it been more since?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I think the total amount, if I'm not mistaken, Senator, is about €14.9 billion. Subsequent to that ... that was to the end of 2013 ... I believe Ulster Bank had write-backs of about €1.5 billion in 2014. So, the provisioning has been reduced so the capital may follow in time.

Page 6 of your presentation ... the one you sent in to us. The Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority also set a commercial real estate cap at 250% of the capital base. In July 2007 the financial regulator agreed to a cap of 500%. Could you give us the background to ... was that your request ... to raise it to 500%?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Certainly, Senator, and the papers that have been presented show a narrative on this. The cap was 250% from the early 2000s and it became clear to us that there were challenges around that limit in a number of institutions, so there was a sense that that was honoured more in the breach than the observance. We engaged in a conversation with the regulator as to whether that limit could be changed. As Basel II was coming along, and portfolio analysis was increasingly getting more detailed, it would have been possible to change the risk profile to such an extent that you would get a greater allowance above the 250%. So there was an ongoing discussion with the regulator over a number of years and after ... in 2007 the regulator agreed to increase the cap to 500%.

And did ... just Ulster or did the other banks join you in that episode?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I have heard that to be the case, Senator, but during our time in discussions with the regulator, there would be no insight - as one can understand - into what was happening in other institutions.

Were there concerns about the inflationary aspect of such a large increase?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Not to my knowledge, Senator, no. It was believed that it was, particularly with Basel II coming along and the risk weightings that were being applied to greater portfolio analysis ... that the 500% was something that the regulator had been looking at for some time.

Could I refer to B1 for Ulster Bank, Chairman, on page 6?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Sorry, I-----

It should come up on your screen.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Thanks, Senator. Sorry, I was trying to find it in my documents ... I have some notes, so.

It concerns a-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Sorry, I have nothing yet, Senator. My apologies.

UBI, page 6 ... it's the board meeting that is held in Carrickmacross, County Monaghan-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I have it, Senator. Thank you.

"Professor [Niamh] Brennan queried the level of sanctions outside limits, especially with regard to those which breached the loan to value and the debt to service ratio limits.", and she raised those concerns in June 2004. And when we look at later documents ... for ... on this occasion ... to UBI - B2, page 21 ... that three years later the problem that Professor Brennan raised didn't seem to have been addressed. That the loans to value outside policy had gone from 6.5% to 13.6%. And there is also an increase ... it is not a complete series in the DSR outside policy. There are also concerns by the regulator that the Dublin Mortgage Centre was not a very well run operation, to put it mildly. So there's a number of things there, but why did it take so long to respond to Professor Brennan's concerns?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Well starting in ... if you'll forgive the, it may take me a few minutes to explain this Senator so if you'll forgive me, feel free to interrupt me.

In 2004, we commenced a process of reporting exceptions to mortgage policy to the board, so this was the first time that the board members would have seen it so it was new news to them. A typical mortgage, a standard mortgage underwriting has a standard policy and there is typically exceptions allowed to that, so the core portfolio management limits, and we would have allowed exceptions of 10% for loan to value and 10% to debt service ratios. And what we did is in all the cases even though they were, if there was somebody looking to lend outside those particular limits that we had in place, it had to come into the centre. And in doing that we managed these exceptions so in the loan to values, it would not have been unusual for there to be a 10% variation or within a 10% variation. For example, a good chunk of those, as I understand it from my research, were very small changes in loan to value they weren't significant amounts, and on the debt service ratio, for example, if someone, 50% typically of those outside policies would have been for people with incomes of €75,000 and greater, so the greater your income the greater your debt service capacity so we had very clear policies on these but we had portfolio management exceptions that we allowed but they had to be underwritten centrally and then these were reported to the board.

As an aside it's interesting that even with the new rules that the regulator has in place there are exceptions allowed of anywhere between 10% to 20% as I understand it for loans to value and debt service ratios, so that accommodation has continued into the current environment. So what we were doing was, as was entirely appropriate, we were reporting these to the board. And having done the research and having presented to Professor Brennan and the board in 2004, as the minutes indicate she spent time with Mr. McDonnell outside the meeting and satisfied herself on the matter. And those reports would have gone to the board serially subsequent to that over the coming periods and the board minutes don't show until 2007 that there were concerns.

In 2007 as you rightly point out, the board again brought up the issue of outside policy and we agreed that we had exceeded loan-to-value policy in March 2007 in particular, again going back to my 10% limits, following which action was taken to deal with that and the records show that subsequent to that date, the LTVs outside policy and debt service ratios outside policy all declined further. So what we were doing was doing the right thing in reporting these to the board. We we were managing within portfolio management limits that exist to this day, and reporting them to the board, there was good debate and discussion at the board and to the best of my knowledge, the minutes reflect this, reflect this subsequently, the board was satisfied with the explanations it received from management.

With that said Senator, I accept that we let our standards slip in many ... in some occasions and I do regret that but we were managing within, you know, tried and tested and understood limits.

Because the regulator reported in February 2006, there is "no evidence that ... exceptions to policy ... are being reported to the board".

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

With respect Senator, that was erroneous. So they were being reported to the board and the records show that.

I see. Now could I come to the other regulatory issues, which are in the same volume beyond that one, UBI - B2, page 23. Now the first item on page 23 is a letter from the regulator dated 24 July, pointing out that correspondence of 12 March about regulation hadn't been replied to. Was that normal? What's that, about four and a half months without a reply?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Senator it was actually, it was too long and let me explain if you'll forgive me, if I can explain the circumstances. Firstly our reply crossed, so our reply to that letter which has been submitted to the inquiry was sent out two days before that particular letter, so our letters crossed with the regulators. Yes it took too long, if I could explain why it took too long. Typically, what the regulator did in their inspections was they visited your institution, they did their work independent of discussion, there was limited enough discussion with management. Typically, they would take files away they would look at those files they would return those files, then they would finish their inspection, go back to the Central Bank or their own offices and write their report. It was a matter of continuing frustration that there wasn't on-the-ground discussion with management at the completion of their review. So typically, what would happen is, you'd expect there to be a dialogue that would say, "We found this, can you help us with that". That didn't happen and typically you got a letter and then we would have to spend quite a bit of time going back over the individual files that the regulator would have pulled to see exactly what the nature of the query was and if the documentation had been in place. And what the reply to the regulator that we issued on, I believe, 22 July, indicates is that in a number of cases we were able to say to the regulator, well actually this document was there or that had been done. So unfortunately, the process was elongated by the fact that there was very limited dialogue at the conclusion of a review and it resorted to paper. I do regret that it took as long as it did to respond but the reality was that we had to do a lot of work after we received the regulator's report to make sure we got a full response in.

Because the queries raised in their documentation to you from the banking supervision department, March 2008, included their concerns for security of loans, reluctance of large developers to provide an independently-certified net worth statement, group exposures, that UBIL understanding of the wider group is extremely disappointing, wider group liquidity, the bank not at a position to have full understanding of liquidity, the lack of robust credit review and a 15-month gap between inspections, which the regulator wanted to have at least annually, the absence of valuations, no forward-looking cash flow statement, no development cash flow statements, no information for the purpose of potential equity release and the extent which UBIL expected its relationship managers to be aware of the purpose of funds being sought from the bank. That was the banking supervisions department. I mean, it's quite a list. I don't know if it explains how long it took to reply but it would certainly give rise to concerns about the way in which the bank was operating, and in retrospect it's not surprising that financial problems were just around the corner.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I'm sorry Senator, if the question is what my response to that is, as I said at the outset, the reply to that letter has been submitted to the inquiry and unfortunately, the nature of the engagement was such that a lot of those matters that arose could have been dealt with at the time of the review. We replied in full to that letter on 22 July. The response to that ... I mean if it serves I'm happy to go through each individual one, but we responded to each individual point that the regulator made and in some, in some occasions the assessment and the comment were wrong. We accepted some of their findings, I mean I said at the outset that we definitely made mistakes but a great deal of what was in that letter from the regulator was responded to and answered and following that, there was no further communication from the regulator so I don't know how best to deal with this, other than to say there is a very full lengthy response to that letter included in the papers we have submitted, which deal with most of those questions.

Because you can appreciate that this was going on in March to July 2008 and the banking system was pretty soon going to get in all these problems and the regulator did have, did have those concerns. The regulator was also concerned about the low percentage of your funding raised from deposits and in particular that you were bringing resources in from the Royal Bank of Scotland. Was that ... what was your deposits-to-loans ratio at that stage?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I think our loan-to-deposit ratio for the group in Ireland as a whole was of the order of between 150% and 200%. So that would not have been at odds typically with the system at the time, as wholesale funding had increased significantly in the previous five to ten years. But in addition Senator, as the liquidity crisis hit in late 2007, increasingly funding fell into the wholesale environment so that was our ratio at the time and that was not atypical of institutions at the time. And we had limits, RBS had Financial Services Authority in the UK limits imposed on how much they could lend us as well and they were observed at all times.

Is it possible to regulate the sector in Ireland if banks with connections outside the jurisdiction can finance their lending from that source ... has the regulator control over that?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

It's a ... I mean, I can't speak for the current environment, I've been out of banking for four years now, Senator. But the regulator, both the Financial Services Authority and the Irish Financial Regulator would've had full visibility of our balance sheet, our funding and would've had a lot of, I suppose, conversations between themselves as regulators. So there would've been a lot of visibility and the regulator would have ... ultimately had sanction on any of those things, such as, for example, the 250% limit that you referred to earlier. So, it's complex, no doubt, and I cannot comment on what the current environment is like, but certainly at the time, despite the complexity, it was manageable. I mean, it would have appeared to me at the time that the regulator was comfortable with the fact that, you know, an institution such as Ulster Bank had significant external parentage and support. It led a lot of comfort to the capital strength and liquidity of the local institution.

But was it an ingredient of a property bubble, that was happening at the time?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I don't believe so, Senator.

Thank you. On 29 September, were you aware of the momentous events that were taking place in Dublin on that day?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I wasn't, Senator. As I said in my opening statement today, I'd had a number of conversations with the regulator in the previous two weeks, since Lehman's collapsed, because stresses were apparent, just to reassure the regulator that we were sound as we could be and asking the regulator for any insight into what may be happening. But I was unaware on the 29th of what was happening.

And did you form a view afterwards of the guarantee?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I wasn't there, Senator, so it would be wrong of me to give an opinion. I didn't have all the facts, I wasn't in the room. All I can comment on was the impact it had on Ulster Bank and I've done that in my statement. It would be wrong of me to make any further comment on the guarantee itself.

Should any bank be allowed to fail?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Well, that's moral hazard and I think there's been enough papers written on that over time to give more opinion than mine, Senator. I think all I can say is that there is no doubt that the collapse of Lehman's and allowing Lehman's to fail had very significant consequences. As to what the right answer to that one is, it's a good question. I think that ... I think a lot has been done by regulators and governments since the crisis to shore up the system and to make sure that banks are either right-sized or insulated with capital and liquidity to make sure it doesn't happen. But it's ... I mean, it would not be ... it's a very, very difficult question for me to answer, Senator.

Was there sufficient value from auditors to bankers in Ireland during that period?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Well ... all of our audit opinions were clean audit opinions and they were ... you know, our accounting policies in Ulster Bank, which is the only ones I can speak for, were the accounting policies of the larger group, Royal Bank of Scotland, and our audit opinions and our accounts have been submitted to the inquiry. There has been some debate as to the appropriateness of provisioning policy through IAS 39 but it was what it was, so in the circumstances and with the policies that were in place at the time, you know, all I can say is our audit opinions were clean. And circumstances, you know, changed after the event.

And was that true of the internal audits also?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Again, internal audit in Ulster Bank was a pretty strong function and did a lot of work that was governed by RBS group internal audit. We had a very strong audit committee that was independently chaired. Again, the papers have been submitted to the inquiry. It acted independently and behaved independently, including separate reporting to Royal Bank of Scotland, so we had a very strong functioning internal audit function as well.

The internal audit report of December 2006 found lax controls under the disbursement of mortgages, inadequate and ineffective control of documentation required to obtain legal title over mortgage properties and no clearly defined process or controls for the handling of non-performing debt. Was there a response to that?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Yes there was. That report was brought to the board and the audit committee. Just to explain, we had converted our systems earlier that year from Ulster Bank's old systems to Royal Bank of Scotland systems and it's a matter of record there were challenges after that in the mortgage area. So there was a significant amount of oversight and insight into that particular challenge and a lot of work was done, so that by the following year ... there's an internal audit report of December 2007 that indicates that all of the issues that were brought up in the 2006 report had been dealt with. So yes, there were issues. Yes, I spent, personally, a huge amount of management time appropriately, making sure that these were addressed and within 12 months or shorter, these matters had been fully addressed as the audit paper of that time shows and the subsequent meeting of the audit committee covered. I think that was a early 2008 audit committee of the group.

Could you describe for us, then, and those at home, the outcomes of the round table discussions held with the Central Bank in relation to the financial stability reports from 2004 onwards?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Sorry, Senator, would you mind referring me to the appropriate document?

Now, it's on page 15 of ... it is ... so maybe I should make the question general, in the absence of putting my hand on the document, Mr. McCarthy.

We can come up with the supplementary later on.

Yes. Right. Thank you, Chairman.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I'm happy to take a general question, Chairman, if-----

Yes. The financial stability meetings from 2004 on ... if you could tell us your participation and what generally went on and what were the conclusions. Thank you very much.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

They weren't, in particular, financial stability meetings, Senator. I mean, our engagement with the regulator was typically periodic and you know, it was more situational or thematic. So there would not have been a regular dialogue that I can recall around that particular matter with the regulator. There would've been regular meetings, I would've met the Governor, I would've met the chief executive of the regulator, at least on an annual basis and we would've had broad general discussions about banking matters generally, but, unless you can draw my attention to this specific paper, I'm not sure I recall what you're talking about.

Okay, thank you. You referred to, in your presentation, when First Active was acquired by the group, that some 700 jobs were lost. You also referred to the Ulster integration project which was to transfer functions into the Royal Bank of Scotland. Was there much job losses on that occasion also?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I'm not sure about the 700 job losses, Senator. I don't recall that. We ... definitely after the crisis, we put in place a plan to resize the business for the new reality and there were significant job losses unfortunately as a result of that. But during the integration of First Active and Ulster Bank, over that period of time, the employment numbers in the Ulster Bank actually grew.

Was there much transfer of functions from local branch managers to the centre?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

There wasn't ... there wasn't anything particularly new. I mean, there was a theme in banking generally, of automation. Credit authorities generally, were vested in centre-independent credit. That would've been the case in Ulster Bank and that stayed the same. Other than a general drive towards automation and centralisation of processing which was thematic in the industry, there was nothing particular done. In fact, in my time in First Active and in my time in Ulster Bank, I always believed in the importance of the local branch and the local service and the community side of that. So, thematically, we were keen to make sure that local service was delivered locally and as best done locally, but there would've been, as a matter of course with greater systems automation, there would've been increasing centralisation, yes.

Because some people might say that when that was the system that banks were solvent and that the managerial reorganisation, integrations and transfers of functions, lost the connection between the manager and what risks were worthwhile in the local community and which ones were not.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

It's ... I've heard that comment before. All I can say is, in the case of our own institution, nothing changed. When I took over as chief executive of the group in January 2004, the credit authorities remained the same as they had been beforehand, so there was no ... there was, as you've referred to in the exceptions reporting, there was appropriate hierarchies of people who were looking for, you know, to override a policy. But there was no change in the local authority or local, in fact we believed fundamentally that the connection between our branch manager or our business centre manager was a very important one. In my time in the bank, we actually opened more branches and we opened more business centres across the country to that effect.

Thank you very much. And thank you, Chairman.

If I can just deal with two matters here before we bring in Senator O'Keeffe, Mr. McCarthy. One is just to clarify something you were saying about the round table meetings that was facilitated by the regulator from 2004 onwards. Were you saying that Ulster Bank were not part of their process, or you were not part of that process?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I ... my memory may serve me, but I don't recall any particular ... if you're referring to a meeting that took place with the chiefs of all the banks, that we were not included in any meeting like that that I can recall, no. Our engagement with the regulator was very much institutional and one-to-one, Chairman, if that's the question you're asking.

Okay. And I've just one other matter if I could deal with this as well, it's just, it's in regard to the property related lending strategies of the bank, and bring your attention to core document UBI - B2, page 13. And as you can this, this is-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Yes, Chairman, I see that, yes.

It's an Ulster Bank presentation.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Yes.

And it's, it ... a presentation of what I can gather, is a strategy document, Our Goals and Customer Strategies. These are where Ulster Bank sees itself going into the future. They ... it would appear, as outlined in this - I think this was presented to the board on 27 April 2007, and the question I'll be putting to you it was to become ... the target for Ulster Bank was to become the No. 1 new mortgage lending by tripling current account volumes, and secondly to double your share of corporate lending in the Republic of Ireland from 15% to 30%. I may be asking your views on the ambition of that in a moment. But in deciding the strategy, did you have any concerns that this could potentially lead to a degradation in credit quality in the drive to gain market share?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

It's a good question, Chairman. Just to explain the background to this: in 2006 we had come through a significant integration programme with Royal Bank of Scotland, and as had been the case when I took over as chief executive of Ulster Bank, our ambition was to take on AIB and Bank of Ireland, so being No. 1 in the island of Ireland was the stated ambition. What this programme tried to do was rally the flag and get, you know, the organisation united round a unified ambition to be the No. 1 bank. And what these numbers were purporting was to say that if you were the No. 1 financial institution in the country this is what the numbers would look like. So none of the shares that are up there, or indeed the numbers if looked at, the market leading position in the market at the time would've been different. So, we were not seeking in any way to be bigger than the existing leader in the marketplace. And so what these set out was what that ambition in five years, if we were to achieve the ambition of becoming No. 1, that's what it would look like. Governing all of this is risk. So as a table stake in our business, as I explained the structure at the outset of how things worked is none of this would have done without the appropriate reference and paying the appropriate attention to the risk parameters and the risk structures in the institution.

Is there an implied statement, or not, in the strategy document that this is grow the bank as fast as you can?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

No, Chairman. I mean, you know, it would ... everything we would have done would have been done-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

-----within a very strict and rigorous framework that was joined into the parent. So even if, even if I had wanted to go and grow to your - to use your language, the way you described it - I would not have been permitted to do it because I would have had to be able to fund the institution appropriately; I would have had to make sure that my lending was done appropriately; that my customer acquisition was done appropriately. So, all this tried to do was say if we were No. 1 these ... this is what the numbers would look like.

Now, in your own testimony earlier you said up to 2004 onwards, and mortgages issued after that were going to be, most likely, in negative equity. Now I'm assuming what you're talking about is first time buyers coming in, not people who are taking equity from previous properties, in the main?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Correct. Well, the first-time buyer market, Chairman, was typically 25% to 30% of the market, and the majority of the market was refinancing, people upgrading, but-----

And was this targeted towards the first-time buyers market?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

This would have been the overall market, so this would have been the total market.

Okay. Now we do know that Ulster Bank were giving 100% mortgages loan-to-value ratios of 100%. You had the tracker mortgage, as well, which was a part of your product mix, and your mortgage schedule, the traditional mortgage schedule would have been in and around 20 years. What was your mortgage schedule around this time? What would it have gone out to?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Well, typically it never varied much because the majority ... I mean in typically in loan to value, the majority written would have been around the 70%. So, typically you could get a mortgage at that time with anything of terms up to 40 years.

Up to 40 years? Okay.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

That was, that was generally available in the marketplace, Chairman.

But the traditional prudential practice for banks that had been in existence for decades, if not centuries, was in around 20 years. Would I be right in saying that?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

On average it would have been around that amount, but-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

And typically the portfolio would have had that, so in a balanced portfolio you would have had an average life. In fact, the average life would have been a lot less than that, because typically in mortgages you get early repayments of capital. So actually, the life is a lot less than that. But the typical term, on average, would have been of the order of 20% to 25%.

And we had lending ratios back in the day as well, where it would have been maybe two and a half to three times the principal earner's and one time the secondary earner of the household. Did that rate increase or did it multiply by any factor in Ulster Bank during that period?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

It changed, Chairman.

To what amount?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

So typically in the 1980s and 90s it was two times gross income or, two times the principal earner and one times the secondary earner. What that didn't take account of particularly was the improvement in personal take-home pays as tax rates fell. So the industry as a whole switched to a debt service ratio, which was a net disposal income.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

So people stopped doing the two times gross income because it couldn't take account of the take-home pay, and switched to a net disposable income, and that typically fell in around the 40% to 45% level. And if you look at the typical mortgage portfolio that was written in Ireland say between the mid-90s and say, 2008-09, that typically would have been around the 45% level. So 45% of net disposal income was the typical, typical stress test or hurdle for repayment.

But at the time the affordability rate of entry into the market for first-time buyers required Government intervention through the affordable housing programmes, and in parts of the country we were seeing subsidised entry at in and around €250,000 in urban areas, probably more in Dublin. So, at this time we had a mixture of 100% LTVs, tracker rates, mortgage schedules going from 20 years out to 40 years, as you said this morning, and lending ratios increasing severalfold, and we had to have State intervention to get people into the market because of earnings levels at the national industrial rate. Did anybody in Ulster Bank say that there's a problem here?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Chairman, at the time all of the indicators were positive. So, you know, in hindsight, as I've said, we've made mistakes, I acknowledge that. We definitely got it wrong, but at the time all of the economic indicators were positive. House formation was increasing, there was considered to be a deficit in house formation in Ireland. There was net migration, economic growth was strong, employment was full. The general sense of, you know, house production for the foreseeable future was strong, and we did stress test those as has been indicated. But, you know, we clearly got it wrong, Chairman.

But there was nobody in Ulster Bank at the time ... we know ... you said you got it wrong, but at the time was there anybody in Ulster Bank saying that this could be wrong? And if there wasn't, why was that concern not being expressed? That's not with the benefit of hindsight, but just anybody at the time saying that there could be a problem here?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

There wasn't Chairman. I wish I could say that, you know, there was. I wish I could go back and change things, but at the time the general consensus view that prevailed, and the view within our own institution was that there'd been a paradigm shift and that there was, you know, very strong growth, you know, for the foreseeable future, both politically ... it wasn't just within, you know, within Ulster Bank. We had our, we had RBS Group economics, who are an independent view, as well. We had third party economics, we had stress testing from the Central Bank, we had stress testing from the ESRI. Unfortunately, Chairman, no.

Well, we know from earlier testimony here that some of the stress testing wasn't looking at the property sector at all. We know that from earlier testimony given here. But looking specifically at Ulster Bank, what was absent in your risk assessment that this wasn't showing up?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I don't think we gave enough account of the ... we took enough account of the potential for extreme events to happen. We accepted the conventional wisdom that a soft landing was the logical outcome. The view was that Ireland, having come into the euro environment, had a very stable currency now that it hadn't had before. There was an infrastructural and economic deficit in Ireland that was being rebuilt, and low interest rates prevailed. So, that, for want of a better phrase, groupthink, or consensual view, prevailed throughout the period, and any of the stress testing that was done did not take enough account of potential for, let's call it catastrophic events, to occur. That was the mistake was that we didn't challenge ourselves enough as to what the potential outcomes would be if there was a significant, major shock to the system.

But I'll bring in Senator O'Keeffe after this, so just the traditional banking model that has sustained banks for over a century in this country and for several centuries, the prudential rules had changed completely. Did it require an external factor outside the Republic of Ireland for Ulster Bank to actually run into difficulty with these products now coming on line?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I'm not sure I ... with respect, Chairman, I'm not sure I understand the question-----

If a person bought a house in the 1980s, albeit with a different interest rate at the time, they would have had a 20 year schedule, the ratio of their income would have been more measurable to the mortgage they were taking onboard, they would have had to come up with 90% ... or they'd be on an LTV of 90%, they'd have to come for a 10% deposit, there ... there wouldn't have been a tracker rate, that would be subject to all the variables coming down the line, so regardless of any external stimulus that might have been happening outside the Republic of Ireland, given these significant changes away from traditional banking practices, was there or not a danger already in place in the Irish banking sector because of the product and how the product had changed over two decades from the 1980s into the 2000s?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Inherently, yes, but the circumstances were we had very low and stable interest rates so that was something we'd not experienced before and we even stressed those interest rates for 2% to 3% so stress tests were performed. In addition we had significantly reduced personal tax rates so take home pay was higher than it had been before. So the economic circumstances had changed dramatically, Chairman, but you are right, you know, we did not take enough account of potential stress, so we let our standards slip.

Okay, thank you. Senator O'Keeffe.

Thank you, Chair. Mr. McCarthy, when we go back to the Financial Regulator, forgive me, in 2003, in this ... I'm sorry I don't know what the reference is, this is this additional document, 2003, the letter that the Financial Regulator wrote to the chair, Mr. Burgess, and basically outlining quite a number of deficiencies at the bank. "Ulster Bank unable to provide details as to the precise level of exceptions outside policy directly from their systems" and so on, "loans in breach", "insufficient evidence of income on file", and so on. You're familiar with this document?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I ... I got this document last night, Senator, thank you.

I know. Yes. Yes, and you're familiar with it. So then again in 2004 we have, again to Mr. Burgess, in January, so that's seven or eight months or so afterwards, again, difficulties arising with ... with the Ulster Bank. So this is quite a long time ago, 2003-2004, and then, of course, we come up to 19 June 2006 - I think my colleague has mentioned this - and again a whole series of events, so I ... I'm really very puzzled that this would have been going ... I do appreciate these things take a long time, there's lots of paperwork and so on, but it does not appear from the reading of those documents that any substantial progress was made by the bank, the similar problems arising all the time. And people have been very critical in the public domain about the Financial Regulator, in fairness, they have. And here is the Financial Regulator saying to you, "You haven't done this, you haven't done that, and you haven't done the other", but they're saying it over a period of three years.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Yes, Senator, I can see how that can be interpreted from these documents, so if I might provide some context, again, in the time I had available since last night. I actually did recall this when the letter came in. The regulator wrote to every institution, so the letter you see went to 11 institutions, as did the following letter, both the letter of 31 July and 15 January were general institutional letters. So they went to everybody in the marketplace, not just to Ulster Bank.

Yes, but you're just speaking for Ulster Bank.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Yes, I am. But all I'm saying is that the ... just to give some context, this wasn't just about ... this wasn't just about Ulster Bank.

Yes, I know. I know. We've had that testimony before-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I think the second point is, again, the ... and we did ... we did discuss this with the regulator at the time, the methodology that the regulator chose to use was to come and do the review, not discuss the matters that they had found on the review with management, in other words, can you explain this, can you show me this, go away, and then write the letter in. That was a matter of some frustration over time, and so we replied to this letter and many ... I don't ... in the time available to me I haven't been able to find a copy of it, but from the board minutes that I've been .... managed to get a hold of in Ulster Bank and First Active subsequently, again, I am satisfied that we answered the regulator's concerns. The regulator asked us to raise things at board, we did that; it asked us to bring policies to board, we did that; it asked us to report exceptions to board, we did that. On the individual file by file cases, we would have gone back to the regulator on each one of those, and, in many cases, as subsequent reviews have shown, we were in a position to be able to answer, and, in some case, correct the regulator's misapprehension about files, because when you look at mortgage files or loan files, they can be quite thick and lengthy. They're not one page on a computer document or an A4 sheet, so there can be quite a degree of paperwork involved, and sometimes you need someone to guide you through it. So we took these letters very seriously. Every year the regulator would do thematic reviews. We always brought them to the board, we always replied, we took action where it was appropriate, and the evidence of that is in the regulator's either lack of follow-up or follow-up subsequently, but these particular letters, again, were thematic industry letters, and the points that were made regarding Ulster Bank were addressed and followed up with the regulator.

But, just to be clear, was Ulster Bank in breach, as per those letters notwithstanding they were sent to other people? I don't care about them, I care about you. Were you in breach according to those letters?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

In breach of ... of-----

Of what they said?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Specifically, Senator, I don't believe in most cases we were. There would have been instances, yes, where they would have found things, certainly, and we would have corrected them, and, indeed, our board minutes would show discussion and correction, but in the main, my recollection is, we were able to respond on most of the points to the regulator, addressing their concerns. And indeed, if the regulator brought something to our attention that we were in breach of, or doing wrong, we would have corrected it. We took our responsibility seriously in that regard.

So, as a banking inquiry, we should set these letters aside and not consider them as being relevant to the behaviour of Ulster Bank at that time, is that broadly what you're telling me?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I can't, Senator, all I can give you is the context in which they came, so, looking at the letters ... looking at the letters cold, you're correct. All I can say to you is that we responded to every one of these letters, we answered all of these questions. I don't have the responses to hand. What responses I've been able to find to some of the regulatory letters that were presented to me I have given back, and it shows, as do our board minutes, that we ... we took the matter seriously and we responded. Contextually, the point I make about process is it is very challenging if you're in a situation where someone does a review, takes a load of files, and doesn't ask you a question at the time, goes away, writes a letter, and then it comes into you, and it's clear that they have missed something, or not got something right, that's the challenge.

Okay, well then you will ... I think my colleague, Senator Barrett, did refer to the Dublin Mortgage Centre and the six significant issues that were mentioned there. That, correct me if I'm wrong, was an internal document created by Ulster Bank itself, not by the regulator, and it was ... discusses very serious elements that are going wrong, so I'm ... am I right in that?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

That's correct, Senator.

Yes, so ... So that's your own guys telling you things are wrong.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Correct.

So now you're saying to me that the Financial Regulator's letters really aren't wrong but your own guys were wrong, or not, or were they wrong too, or right?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I ... I'm sorry, my apologies, Senator, I'm not saying either. I'm simply saying that we took these letters from the regulator seriously. There is context for each of the letters, which doesn't appear. We replied to all of the issues. The fact that the regulator, in these particular letters, did not follow up with us subsequently indicates to me that they were satisfied with our responses. As regards the Dublin Mortgage Centre we had issues post a conversion of a system which we self assessed and raised. I believe I asked for internal audit to do that review myself, but I may be incorrect in that. And as those issues arose, we subsequently corrected them and fixed them. As issues came to our attention, Senator, we took them seriously and we fixed them.

But they ... in fairness, they were very serious issues. You know, non-performing debt, "clearly defined processes or controls for the handling of non-performing debt is not currently in place", "mortgages are processed to completion without sufficient consideration being given to whether all terms and conditions and documentation requirements have been satisfied". You were, after all, a bank. It ... these things are quite ... they seem to me to be quite serious breaches of your own, normal kind of business. Or maybe I'm wrong.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

That's ... no, Senator, that's ... as regards the internal audit report, if that's what you're reading from, that's correct, and we absolutely had issues after that. We self ... we self-raised them, the regulator was aware of them, we took significant steps with Royal Bank of Scotland to fix them, and by the end of 2007 they were fixed, in fact they were fixed largely early. So, yes, we had issues, I regret that it happened, but we self-assessed them, we told everybody who needed to be told about them, and we fixed them.

You talked earlier on about the 100% mortgages and we heard testimony that Mr. Goggin said he had a visit from the Financial Regulator. This was in his own testimony, page 19, "I had a visit from the Financial Regulator who himself was expressing concern about the development of 100% mortgages in the marketplace", and Mr. Goggin remarked that it was odd because the Financial Regulator came to visit him and that wasn't normally the case. That's why he remembered it very particularly. And I think you've said to us ... to my colleague, that you didn't think that the Financial Regulator had any concerns, so maybe ... you might just clarify for me.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

The Financial Regulator did not object to us launching the product. We had a dialogue with the Financial Regulator about aspects of the product. They asked us some questions and we replied. I think the ... the thing that Mr. Goggin was referring to was the Financial Regulator did talk to all the financial institutions about introducing higher capital charge for increased loan-to-value products. So, what happened subsequent to the introduction of first ... 100% mortgages and higher LTV mortgages, was the regulator put a higher capital requirement on those loans. And that, I think, I may be mistaken ... I think that's what Mr. Goggin referred to because the regulator-----

Well he says, "I had a visit from the Financial Regulator who himself was expressing concern about the development of 100% mortgages in the marketplace".

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I can't speak for Mr. Goggin, Senator, I'm sorry.

No, I'm not asking you to. I'm saying that he's observing that the Financial Regulator was concerned. You're saying that that didn't happen for you.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I'm saying the regulator did not object to our launch of the product.

Do you believe, Mr. McCarthy, as the chief executive officer, that you were satisfied with the level of financial information you received? I'm talking here about the board. Did the board have the capacity, did it have sufficient information to carry out its duty of oversight effectively, do you believe?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I believe so, Senator, yes.

Okay. You've nothing to add to that, no?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

We had, you know, there's no doubt we had issues when we converted the systems from Royal Bank of Scotland on to Ulster Bank in 2006 around just classic computer conversion stuff, where we had some information gaps but they were fixed in time and there was never a gap that was systemic or in any way would have put the situation in trouble.

Just to clarify, in relation to Professor Brennan having that conversation outside the room, that's Vol. 1, B1, page 6, where she had raised her concerns again and my colleague has raised this with you - it was agreed that Mr. McDonnell would meet with her outside the meeting to address her concerns. Was that something that routinely happened? You know, why would she be asked to leave the room if she had a view that was contrary to the other views?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I think the minutes may not serve that well. Typically, what would have happened is in ... if something was lengthy or complicated, it was often better to take it ... for a board member to come in and have a separate long conversation about a matter and we encouraged that, so if a board member had something they wanted to learn more about or understand more about it, it was not unusual and that would have been the chair, so William Burgess, who was the chair at the time, would have decided that. It would be better if the board member had a conversation with the team member of management, excuse me, outside the room and then bring back to the board any subsequent concerns.

But not minuted that meeting ... those meetings wouldn't have been------

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I don't have sight of the following minutes but if there had been an issue, it would have been recorded in the minutes that the non-executive member of the board had a subsequent issue and it would have been raised and minuted accordingly, as, you know, our minutes were quite detailed.

Is that good practice at a board level of a publicly quoted company to have ... sort of ... outside meeting ... I'm asking, I don't know the answer?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

It's not unusual, you know, in trying to run a meeting to a certain time period, if a matter becomes, you know, either detailed or complex, it's not unusual for there to be an agreement either to have, you know, in some cases either a sub-committee meeting or for a board member who has a particular interest to go and inform themselves about something outside the meeting. That would be quite normal and then it would be normal if that board member had further concerns to come back to the board and say to the chairman "I met with X, I was either satisfied or not satisfied". The absence of any minute to the effect would seem to indicate that there would be satisfaction and that has been the case with this particular point having been raised by Professor Brennan.

Okay, thank you. On Vol. 1, B2, pages 9 and 10, there was the group risk credit policy and strategy committee minutes of the meeting held on 28 July 2005 and this was a meeting, Mr. McCarthy, to discuss, I think, the whole first ... the whole ... the 100% mortgage introduction and, at the end, there is a decision and it says "JM summed up by confirming that all parties were in agreement to support the product", the product being the 100% mortgage-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Yes.

-----"BL stated that the decision should be recorded as ratified as the product had already been released". Now I understand from that the product had already been released by First Active and this was now Ulster Bank having a look at the same product, is that correct?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

That's correct, Senator, yes.

Is it the case the board of Ulster Bank would have been likely, or not the board, the group risk credit policy and strategy committee, would they have been likely to overturn a product that was already on the market with First Active, a company that you owned?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

It's unlikely that they would have, Senator, yes.

So this was a kind of a ... was this closer to a rubber-stamping than a ....

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I don't think so, the process was different. So the underwriting process in Ulster Bank would have been different and, therefore, it would have been appropriate that the Ulster Bank would have gone through the appropriate process for Ulster Bank, so, no it wouldn't have been, but given the fact that the product had already gone through an internal new product approval process, it had gone through the RBS risk process, then it would have been ... it would have been reasonable to expect that there .... that product would have been launched. It was not unusual to launch products across brand but, for good governance, it was important that the Ulster Bank risk committee went through it and if they had concerns or issues, that would have been escalated as well.

I mean, given that 100% mortgages were literally handing somebody, you know, carte blanche to buy a house, what was going through Ulster Bank's mind at that time that they thought this could possibly be a good idea, given that you had, I imagine, in the bank quite a number of people, possibly including yourself, who had been bankers for a very long time and had always known that there was a kind of practice there about mortgages that, you know, don't give 100% because people need to have saved something and so on? What on earth happened at that point that somebody said "Bingo, this is a good idea"?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Well, as I've explained, Senator, I do regret that we did it, so I accept that we made a mistake. That said, the circumstances at the time were that this product was generally available in the market; it wasn't publicised. And what we were finding with our customers was that well, No. 1, from a competitive position, we were losing share of the first-time buyer market because others were doing 100% mortgages. The second thing was we had seen customers who were to try and get the deposit for a house, were extending themselves on personal loans and credit cards, which is not the right way for people to find deposits for houses, and those two combined with the fact that we already had a 100% product in existence for some time for professionals, so typically you know, people who had significant income, more income flows coming, you know, with their businesses, doctors whatever it may be. So we had experience of the product, so it was a combination of those factors led us to believe that it was the right thing to do. In hindsight, it was the wrong thing to do, but those were the motivators at the time.

So, basically, you felt under pressure competitively and wanted to keep your market share or increase your market share at that time?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

There was ... candidly, Senator, there was a degree of that, yes.

You were ... you're members ... I don't know if ... assuming you still are of IBEC, the Irish Business & Employers' Confederation?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

We were at the time, Senator-----

You were at the time----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I don't know now.

In 2008 and this is the one I have the note for, you paid €194,000 in annual fees to IBEC, of course along with other banks, but again you're Ulster Bank. What did you get for your €194,000?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Well, I can't attest to the number but if you say that's the number, I take it as read. It would have been ... I mean there would have been .... IBEC would have done a lot of work on the industrial relations front, so we had a significant union presence, unionised staff cadre, so IBEC would have been the employer representative in negotiation around national wage agreements, things like that. So it's very difficult for an individual institution to do those things independently, so that's a simple case of ... IBEC would have been the employer's representative in doing negotiations around national wage agreements, etc., and so in engaging with our union, we believed it was helpful to be part of the employers' confederation so that we could make sure that we had, you know, a seat at the table when national agreements, etc., were being discussed. That's one simple example. There were other training courses that IBEC did, they did a lot of consulting work as well and so there was a raft of services they provided, but the one that occurs to me most is the industrial relations side.

Thank you. In Vol. 1, B2, page 3, it says that, "Additional risk transfers [are] required by [the] end of April", and a memorandum to the board dated August 2007, also in that book on page 16, notes that risk transfers had amounted to €4.5 billion, exclusive of some "notes which are transacted for Large Exposure risk diversification purposes". So, I'm wondering if you can explain to us what is happening here, what was going on?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Senator, this goes back to 250% limit that's been discussed and so as part of the capital planning for RBS Group, RBS would maintain minimum capital levels in its various subsidiaries, so it's not comparable with, say AIB or Bank of Ireland, who had the total capital in the public company and so for capital planning reasons, more of our group capital was held in Ulster Bank Limited, which was a Northern Ireland company, than in Ulster Bank Ireland Limited and the regulator had this 250% limit of own funds which you could lend into property. So, what we did was, with the agreement of the regulator, we did risk transfers to house some of that exposure and any of that exposure in excess of 250% was held on the balance sheet of Ulster Bank Limited through risk transfers, and again this was approved and agreed with the regulator and so what happened subsequently was that when the regulator agreed to the 500% limited, we then unwound those risk transfers and took them on the balance sheet of Ulster Bank Ireland Limited, the Republic of Ireland bank, and put additional capital in to support that, so it was largely a group ... RBS Group capital planning exercise.

Did that mean that Ulster Bank in Ireland, that your regulatory returns were an inaccurate picture of the bank's true exposure to the property market in the Republic of Ireland, you know?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

No, Senator, because the risk transfers took that risk onto the Ulster Bank Northern Ireland or Ulster Bank Limited balance sheet and, as I said, the regulator had full visibility and transparency of those transfers.

And approved that you could do that?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I mean, it was ... it was a non-objection, Senator, which was effectively an approval.

On the ... you just spoke briefly about the guarantee, the night of the guarantee, and you said that you learned about it, I think, the next day; is that correct?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

That's correct, Senator, yes.

So, obviously in the day leading up to the night, there were obviously all kinds of meeting, Anglo Irish, the Central Bank, all kinds of people were on the phone. Bank of Ireland and AIB obviously decided to go in and see the Government because they felt things were really, really running into the wall. How was it that Ulster Bank was just completely not in that loop?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I can't answer that question, Senator. I can speculate: the fact that we were not an indigenous Irish bank was ... you know, that we had a foreign or international shareholder was a factor in that, but, as I said in my opening statement, I rang the regulator after Lehman's collapsed. I rang the regulator each week before the 30th, just to ... just to reassure the regulator that RBS took its responsibilities seriously and that we were acutely aware of, you know, the stresses that, you know, that may have been there and to also ask the regulator if there was anything that we should know or be aware of, but I got no ... I got no indication back from the regulator to that effect, so essentially, on the night of the ... I learned about the guarantee and all that went with it on the morning of the 30th.

Did anyone ask you to buy Anglo Irish?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

No, Senator. There was some conversation subsequent to the guarantee about institutions merging and doing, you know, transactions. I think there's been some evidence to the committee about that and there were some conversations held with us as to whether we, as a group, would be interested in participating in consolidation of the Irish banking sector.

Final question, Senator.

And what about Irish Nationwide?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

No, Senator.

No, okay. So, did you ever make any phone calls to the Department of Finance, or did anybody from the Department of Finance ever contact you, in and around this period of time while you were talking to the Financial Regulator? Was there any conversation?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Not prior to the 30th.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Not prior to the night of 29 September, Senator, no.

Okay. When you talked about wanting to be the third force, as a bank, did your company spend much on marketing, or how did you ... was that something that was internal idea or did you externalise it? How did that manifest itself?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

It was very much an internal ... you know, I mean, when we would produce results, or, you know, our annual results for RBS, we would have kind of reiterated our ambition, but we did no more than advertise our product and our services, as others would have done, so there was no ... there was no kind of branding externally to that effect. It was a generally held ... there was a lot of talk in the market over many years as to the need for a third force. It became kind of the lingua franca of the time, so we didn't go out and post that on posters.

Senator, I need to move you towards a final question.

Yes. On Vol. 1, B5, page 4, you talk about incentive schemes and you say they "included Commercial [and] Residential real estate loan volumes" and I'm just trying to establish whether or not the incentive schemes were linked to volume.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Incentive schemes would have had multiple facets, as I think the papers we submitted would say, so typically we would have incentive schemes that were what were called a balanced score card, so there would have been ... there would have been targets for income, there would have been targets for deposit raising, there would have been targets for staff satisfaction, for customer satisfaction and, typically, one of those, you know, would have been loan growth, so ... but it wasn't of itself. There would have been multiple. We used quite a number of RBS variable rate and incentive scheme products that they had existing in the UK bank and RBS, so they would have been very, you know, balanced score cards and people would have had targets for multiple things at the start of the year, not just one thing, Senator.

No, I appreciate it's not one thing, but it does specify, "included Commercial/Residential real estate loan volumes" and I'm just trying to-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Yes. Yes, Senator.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

That's correct, yes.

Okay, okay. Just coming to the end, on page 4 of your statement, you say: "I was assured by Royal Bank of Scotland that capital and funding support would be made available to support growth. In this regard, capital and liquidity management were not considered to be a critical, local Ulster Bank priority." Do you think that this may have had, or did it have, an effect on the behaviour and attitude of Ulster Bank executives in the local market, in other words in the Republic of Ireland?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I don't believe so, Senator, because the risk parameters that we were subject to would have defined our capability and our appetite, so the advantage of that was simply the fact that we didn't have to have a full service, you know, treasury. We had a local, smaller treasury. As it transpired over time, as the FSA put in more limits on the amount of inter-company lending RBS could put in place, we actually had to beef up our own treasury so, as time passed, notwithstanding the commitment at the outset, and as the papers will show, we had our own group asset and liability committee, so we were very heavily exercised in our own funding as time passed, but we couldn't have done anything that was outside the risk framework that was put in place for us.

Final question, Senator.

So you don't think that the combined facilities available to Ulster Bank of risk transfer and funding support mimicked the sort of function of cheap credit following the EMU that you yourself raised in your opening statement?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I don't believe so, Senator. There's no doubt that liquidity was readily available in the system.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

It wasn't just for Ulster Bank, it was readily available generally and I think that's been witnessed. It was comforting to know that you were part of a bigger group and that you had access to funding, if and when you needed it at points in time, but again within the constraints of an overall risk framework that you had to manage too.

But comforting, rather than that it gave rise to risk?

This is your last question now, Senator.

To make people more reckless? Yes, I'm just clarifying.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Yes, absolutely, Senator, the two are separate. Treasury and capital management were entirely separate to credit risk.

Okay, thank you. Senator Marc MacSharry.

Thanks, and thanks, Mr. McCarthy, for coming in and being here. You said there were three legal entities here in Ireland and each with a board of directors; isn't that correct?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

That's correct, Senator, yes.

Okay. There are 27 registered companies for Ulster Bank between Dublin and Belfast. Why would that be necessary?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

It's not unusual in large groups and in banking groups to have multiple subsidiaries, so, without wishing to over-complicate it, so, for example, in Ulster Bank we would have had Lombard & Ulster, which would have been the leasing business, that was actually part ... that was one subsidiary. There would have been other subsidiaries put up for a whole variety of reasons and there would be legacy subsidiaries. In fact, one of the things we did after the Ulster Bank and First Active merger was the group had a programme put in place to reduce the number of subsidiaries because once you set up a subsidiary, it's actually very hard to close it down, or deal with it. You end up with trapped capital and dividend issues, so it's not unusual in large groups, and not even ... not just in banking groups, for there to be multiple companies in a group. A lot of those companies would have been dormant.

Were you responsible for all of these 27?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I wouldn't have been on the board of all of those 27. I would have been on the board of a number of them, but we would have had a variety. So, we had a treasury business in the IFSC, we'd an IFSC company, so that would have been part of the group as well and there would have been board members on that so, you know, ultimately, as a director and chief executive of the holding company, I would have had responsibility as chief executive for the group as a whole.

And would these 27 all have been in the group?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

To the best of my ... to the best of my knowledge, Senator, some of them may ... I don't have the chart in front of me, but some of them may have been RBS subsidiaries, so RBS may have had ... would have had IFSC businesses, international businesses, that would have been outside the Ulster Bank Group and may have been in the RBS chain. I wouldn't have any involvement in those. But any of them that were subsidiaries of Ulster Bank, in logic, as the top company chief executive, I would have had responsibility for them, but a good chunk of them, Senator, would have been dormant companies.

And whether they were registered in Belfast or Dublin, would that have-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Obviously, in terms of regulation and legal entities. I mean the companies law is different in Northern Ireland and in the Republic of Ireland, so there are different obligations for companies registered in Northern Ireland and registered in the Republic of Ireland, so, therefore, one would have had to pay attention to those obligations and, indeed, the regulatory obligations that went with the different jurisdictions.

They would be different, would they, the regulatory-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Yes, they would. The Financial Services Authority, Senator, was the governing regulator for Ulster Bank Limited, which was a Northern Irish company. The Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority was the governing regulator for First Active plc and Ulster Bank Ireland Limited, which were the Republic of Ireland banks.

Was entities on either side of the Border ever used to distribute concentration, to keep a lower level of, say, construction or-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

As I said in response to the Senator's question, there was ... the regulator in the Republic of Ireland had a 250% own funds limit, so we didn't want to breach that and, therefore, what we did was rather than inject capital into the Ulster Bank Republic of Ireland business, which was expensive for the RBS group, we used the capital base in Northern Ireland to transfer the risk in there and again, as I said, that was all done with the knowledge and agreement, for want of a better phrase, or non-objection of the regulator. So, the regulator was aware of what we were doing.

So is it fair to say then that the regulator endorsed, or not, that you would split the business, if you like, between one regulatory system and another in order to stay compliant?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

That's one way of looking at it. Let me put it a slightly different way: if the regulator had insisted that we do something else then we would have injected the capital into Ulster Bank Ireland Limited to deal with that. So if the regulator had come to us and said, "We don't want you to do this," and could support that argument ... "We want you to actually hold the capital in Ulster Bank Ireland Limited," then the capital would have been provided, as it was in 2007 when the regulator increased the limit and we supported the transfer with capital.

While I know you left in 2011, up to that date was there any difficulty, because of the number of entities, in retrieving assets?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Not ... to the best of my knowledge, Senator, no.

Not at that stage?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

No, I don't believe that was ... most ... again, a lot of the companies that you refer to would have been dormant companies or what are known as special purpose vehicles, and most of the, kind of ... most of the lending and the banking would have been done in either of those three legal entities you mentioned. So to the best of my knowledge, certainly by the time I left, there was not an issue with multiplicity of companies causing security or collection issues. And I'm not aware that there was any subsequently, although I may be wrong. I very much doubt it.

Okay. In terms of targets within the company, you had mentioned - and Senator O'Keeffe had touched on it there - where there was, you know, a series of ... your colleagues from other banks had been in and there seems to have been a theme throughout that there were never any targets, that people just went to work and they did their job and loan book and credit card book and so on grew. So in your time as CEO, did ... how did you drive the sales business if there were no direct targets on tellers or foot soldiers, for want of a better expression, in branches?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Well it's not fair ... it's not true to say that there weren't targets.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

There were multiple targets. There wasn't ... if anyone thinks there was, you know, one loan target and that's it - go and get it - that wasn't the truth. To my point about the incentive schemes, we had balance scorecards. So, typically, a branch would have a target for current accounts, for deposits, for non-interest income, for credit cards.

For the full sale-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

For the full suite of products.

The full suite of products.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Correct.

And then would staff then have cross-selling targets? So, I'm an employee in the branch in town A, and my boss is saying, "Now, your job today is to go out and sell two credit cards and four current accounts and two mortgages"; does that-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Cross-selling, Senator, was the norm in the industry, and there would be have been-----

And would there be remuneration linked to that?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Well, typically what there was was either ... there was either a branch incentive scheme or individual incentive schemes. And to that point those schemes would have dealt with any particular targets. But, again, everything would have been done within a risk framework that had to be observed.

Would the manager have a bonus structure that was linked to meeting these targets?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Typically, managers would have bonus capability, again ... excuse me ... depending on the achievement of multiple things in the balance scorecard, which would include deposit raising, it would include, to your point, cross-selling, it would include new current accounts, it would include customer satisfaction, which we measured on a regular basis. So there was a series of these things that the branch manager would have had a bonus or incentive scheme based on.

Okay. In your opinion how much was Ulster Bank Ireland Limited's strategy driven by the activities of competitors rather than assessing fully the quality and impact of the strategic decisions made? So, in your opinion, was the bank's business strategy over-reliant on property and construction loans?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

In hindsight, Senator, yes.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

We ... you know, we were over-exposed, as were many others, to the property sector.

Around the time of the guarantee, and indeed preceding that, Mr. Goggin, from another bank, gave testimony that he had had a meeting with the Governor of the Central Bank, who had asked his opinion of a guarantee that was being canvassed by other banks. Do you have any knowledge, either within your own personal domain within Ulster Bank or, indeed, the industry generally, that this was the case in June or early summer 2008?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

No, Senator, not at all.

Did you ever speak to Brian Lenihan?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I did, Senator, yes.

In the context of the guarantee or any of these matters?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Yes. The Minister was, as it happened, on the day of the guarantee, he had a ... we were launching a ... it was a customer event in Ulster Bank in George's Quay, and Minister Lenihan was due to come to launch that, and he turned up, which was somewhat surprising, given the events of the evening before. And I did have a conversation with him before that event started about the guarantee and the impact on Ulster Bank, and, you know, he listened, as he did, and, you know, he heard what I had to say. So that was the ... that was the first time I'd actually met him, and-----

Did he say anything?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

He listened to what I had to say, and-----

What did you have to say?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I explained to him what the impact was on Ulster Bank, that, you know, we were systemic in ... we believed ourselves to be systemic in that we had branches and business relationships across the country, and that already we had seen the impact of this, even though it was early in the day, of deposits leaving us to go to the competition. So the message I was giving was that this was having a significant impact on us and, by implication, it would have an impact on our customers.

So at what point after that then were you offered participation in the guarantee?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

We spoke to the Minister and his staff in the Department of Finance a number of times over the coming month. You may recall on 13 October, as it happened, Royal Bank of Scotland, along with other banks in the United Kingdom, were bailed out by the UK Government, so our immediate stress was resolved by that. But we still were experiencing, you know, challenges around deposit ... about deposit losses, so we worked with the Department of Finance over a period of months to try to see if we could avail of the benefit of the guarantee. And, sometime in October we got to a point where the requirements that the guarantee would have had for the group, not just Ulster Bank, RBS as a whole, would have meant it was impossible for us to join the guarantee. So we declined the opportunity.

Without the intervention of the Bank of England, would Ulster Bank have required the support of the guarantee here, or not?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I think, ultimately, Ulster Bank's fate in that regard was tied up with RBS's fate, and circumstances prevailed with the UK Government to offer assistance in liquidity terms to Ulster Bank, so the question didn't arise, Senator.

Were you aware ... this is my last question and thank you for your forbearance, Chair ...were you aware of the position of Anglo or Irish Nationwide in advance of 29 September?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I wasn't, Senator. But, you know, I once ... there had been liquidity stresses in the system, but when Lehman's collapsed it clearly was exacerbating. Hence my calls to the regulator to try and assess if there was ... you know, if there were matters afoot or if there was something I needed to know, etc., and to reassure the regulator that Ulster Bank was conscious of its obligations. But I was unaware of those two institutions' situations.

Okay, thank you very much. With that said, I now propose that we break until 4.25 p.m. The witness is reminded that once he begins giving evidence, he should not confer with any person other than his legal team in relation to his evidence on matters that have been discussed before this committee. With that in mind, I now suspend the meeting until 4.25 p.m. and remind the witness that he is still under oath until we resume. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 4.10 p.m. and resumed at 4.30 p.m.

I'm now proposing that we go back into public session to continue with our engagement with Mr. Cormac McCarthy from Ulster Bank, this afternoon. Is that agreed? Agreed. And, in doing so, if I can invite Senator Michael McD'Arcy please. Michael ... Senator D'Arcy. We're more informal in the afternoon, I'm afraid. Senator D'Arcy, you have ten minutes.

First time I've ever been called "McD'Arcy". Thank you, Chairman, Mr. McCarthy. Thank you for coming in. In terms of the Government guarantee ... and you're out of banking now for a number of years and you've the benefit of hindsight and the benefit of where we've come from to where we are today, Mr. McCarthy. Do you think the bank guarantee was a good idea?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Again, Senator, I've ... I wasn't there. I wasn't party to the conversations-----

No, but you ... you were a national banker and you would have-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I didn't have ... I can ... I have explained the impact it had on the institution that I ran. I suppose, the best I can say is that in the circumstances, I can understand why a decision like that would have been made, but I say that without the benefit of all knowledge of what happened that evening. So, therefore, you know, the value of my opinion must be questionable, but, you know, it had a significant impact on Ulster Bank, and that was my focus and my concentration, but my lack of insight into the circumstances, as I've explained, leading up to that point and what happened on that evening, leave me compromised in my ability to give an answer to that that would be meaningful, I think.

Okay and, I suppose, the same question in relation to NAMA, the establishment of NAMA?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Again, Ulster Bank was not involved in the set up of NAMA. It didn't participate in the stress test. It didn't participate in NAMA. It had a significant impact on Ulster Bank, given that it was the mark in the market. So, in a market that wasn't moving at all, it was the only valuation methodology available, so it had an impact. Again, in the circumstances, I have some understanding of why one would do what was done but, again, I was not party to the discussions or the debate. We did have some conversations with NAMA about ... in the early days, about participation or, given that NAMA was the only vehicle that was acquiring assets at the time, as to whether we could participate, but it was ultimately for the guaranteed banks and not for us.

In terms of the numbers from the national Exchequer from the British Government for RBS, £46 billion was provided for RBS. Ulster Bank, the figure I had was €14.3 billion, you said €14.9 billion, but it was in that territory.

Ulster Bank's ratio of RBS was, you know, the figures I have '07, 3%, '08, 2%, '09, 3%, '10, 3%. It seems like a very large quantity of the funds that went into RBS found their way into Ulster Bank and yet Ulster Bank was a very small sector of RBS. Could you explain that please?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Yes, it's a fair question Senator. The first thing to say is that the funds that were injected into RBS had no ... Ulster Bank was not part of that decision, so when the British Government injected its capital into RBS in the first half of 2008, Ulster Bank was not a factor in that decision. So the Ulster Bank losses that occurred subsequently were supported by the ongoing business of Royal Bank of Scotland. There is no doubt that it was a significant cheque. There is no doubt it was a significant amount, but it is not, so I don't understate that at all. But it is difficult to make comparators with the Irish banks, for example, simply because Ulster Bank had no international business, it had no share capital in terms of third-party shareholders. It did not participate in NAMA, so it's...it's only time will tell what the ultimate cheque from RBS will have been. As I said in my statement ... as I said earlier on, in terms of provisions, which is what drove the capital, Ulster Bank wrote back €1.5 billion of provisions in the year end-2014. And I expect more will be written back, so the ultimate cost to Royal Bank of Scotland of the Ulster Bank support will only be known in time. But it is not an insignificant sum, Senator.

One third of the overall moneys from the national Exchequer of the UK that went into RBS found their way into Ulster Bank.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Well, the money that went into RBS in 2008, went in to support the challenges RBS had in its global banking business. Ulster Bank in 2008, its results and its performance in 2009 were not part of that decision, so in making the decision to invest in RBS at the time, the Ulster Bank situation was not germane at the time. Subsequently RBS injected money as it traded through the following years into... into Ulster Bank.

Okay, and can I read a quotation to you please, "For all those who say investment banking is this evil thing, as a terrible activity which lost all the money, the most money that RBS lost, the least wise decisions, were property lending in the UK and Ireland, of which Ireland was worst of all." That came from Mr. Stephen Hester, RBS boss. Do you think that is fair?

When was that said?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I don't ... I have no.... I don't recall or have seen that statement. I mean I reported to Stephen Hester for a while before I left the bank. I make no ... at the end of the day, Royal Bank of Scotland lost a lot of money through Ulster Bank and the losses in Ulster Bank were significant. But we were subjected to a situation where we had no.... we had no fall-back on the Irish Government. We had no access or insight into NAMA. We had to make provisions on a worst-case basis, only time will tell what the outcome was. But I have said already that I acknowledge that we made bad decisions and we made mistakes but I would, I would suggest that notwithstanding the significance of the numbers, comparability is very difficult still and it will take time before the ultimate cost. But ultimately, Ulster Bank had no international businesses to sell, it had no independent share capital to fall back on as other banks did. So only time will tell, I believe Senator.

Can I ask, Mr. McCarthy, the 100% loan to value of mortgages, they were available from First Active prior to Ulster Bank making them available?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

That is correct Senator, yes.

Was there an international dimension or did you take the provision of 100% mortgages from another jurisdiction? When did the idea come up initially? I'm not talking about the First Active, was that on your watch in First Active or was it before that?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

There had been a practice generally in the market of 100% mortgages for professionals, it wasn't uncommon. It was a small part of the market, but typically people who had... you know, very high incomes and had...you know, clear visibility of income. So it wasn't... it wasn't a unique product, but it wasn't available to first-time buyers. So what we did was, we made it available to first-time buyers, that was the change. And that happened on my watch, Senator yes.

And did you take it from an international ... or from some other jurisdiction and say this could work here?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

No it was available in the United Kingdom so we had insight as most mortgage providers in Ireland had, into the UK market so the product was available in the United Kingdom as well but that wasn't the driver. I mean it was, it was our own experience and market circumstances that lead us to offer the product.

Okay. The terms, the loans that were offered and the terms offered to borrowers which were outside the normal commercial terms that were available from your institution made during your period as CEO. Can you identify why this happened or how it was allowed happen? The exceptions rather than the rule.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Exceptions had always been part of the norm and as I said earlier on, there were portfolio management limits. The typical mortgage was arranged around a standard model but every mortgage was individually negotiated so there would have been latitude allowed but that was only at the centre, so typically the tolerances were 10% loan-to-value and 10% debt service ratio. And by and large those were adhered to. I have acknowledged that in some circumstances we did let standards slip but by and large we were satisfied that the exceptions were within portfolio management limit tolerances and that they were justifiable. The experience of the Ulster Bank mortgage portfolio as it has worked through the cycle has been not particularly different to the rest of the market so there's no particular skew that I'm aware of in the Ulster Bank mortgage portfolio versus the rest of the market. So the exceptions were not the norm but exceptions were a factor of the industry for some time beforehand, they didn't arise subsequent to 2004.

Can I just bring to your attention just a follow on, document UBI, Vol. 2. And it's a report form the Financial Regulator June '06 and attached to the report is page, go to page 13. And the letter that's attached to this shows ... the letter is page 3 but there is an appendix attached on page 13. And I think it's out of 61 files inspected 46 had some form of an exception deficiency and under files descriptions, no valuation, no evidence of cost of renovation being financed, no evidence of remaining terms of leasehold, no evidence of cost of reconstruction work being financed, no evidence of site ownership for a new build. I mean these are ... I'm not allowed make a judgment Chairman ...

You are a professional politician.

But these are surprising. That out of 61, 46 had deficiencies of this nature. Could you explain that to the committee please?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Unfortunately Senator I haven't been able to find the reply to this letter. However I'm satisfied it was replied to because I've seen-----

Can we just forget the reply, explain the appendix there with the likes of "Value of loan repayments included in DSR calculation not clear", "No evidence to support recalculation of DSR", income, "No details of income, P60, payslips." I mean these would suggest that there is an enormous deficiency in the documentation required for a loan.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

All I can say Senator is I don't believe that to be the case. As I described earlier the process the regulator had for these reviews was to do their review and do their work and then submit the letter. Typically as I said earlier we would rather they had discussed these with us at the point of the investigation because I believe most of these as has been seen by subsequent reviews, are capable of being answered. So to the best of my knowledge all of these were answered to the regulator's satisfaction because there is no record that I have of follow up, Ulster Bank can't locate the answer but unfortunately I don't have the benefit of the answer to this which would address all of these on the basis of the regulator. As I said earlier on, the modus operandi was to come in, take the files and do the work and then leave and write the report. So we would have been able, because mortgage files are quite detailed they can be quite significant.

Just to finish. You have had sight of this document?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I have had sight of this document yes.

Can I just, No. 37 - "Use of terms 'nixers' in branch assessment and the use of income arising from 'nixers' in accessing a mortgage application."

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Again, Senator, I don't have the benefit of the answer other than to say that if ... to the best of my knowledge and belief, all of these matters were addressed and answered. If that were not ... and that is recorded in the board minutes ... but if that were not the case then the regulator would have had the right of recourse to come back to us and express its dissatisfaction and escalate it. That did not happen, but, unfortunately, I don't have the answer to this particular letter. But I think the circumstances of how the work was done and how the letters were written to us are relevant in understanding this.

Okay, thank you. Deputy Pearse Doherty. Deputy you have ten minutes.

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh, agus fáilte roimh an t-Uasal McCarthy chuig an coiste fiosrúcháin. Can I begin by just asking you ... just in your opening statement on page 6 you say the Financial Regulator also set real estate caps at 250% of the capital base. You go on to say "In July 2007 the Financial Regulator agreed to a cap of 500%." Can I ask you, Mr. McCarthy, did the regulator ever confirm to Ulster Bank that it approved ... it had approved or consented to the increase in Ulster Bank's sector limit of 500%, as opposed to simply not objecting to it?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

We would... there ... I will find... if I can find the appropriate documentation, Senator, I'll provide it but we would not have done something like that without regulatory approval. The regulator would have had to approve that.

So the regulator approved-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Correct.

From your ... that would have been in the form of a letter, a communiqué, would it?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I would think so, Deputy, but we would never have done something like that. There was an ongoing dialogue with the regulator on this topic, so we would not have been able to do that without regulatory consent.

Would you be able to furnish ... could you furnish the committee ... is it possible-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

If that can be done, I'd be happy to do so.

Okay. I appreciate that.

In March 2008 ... on 15 March on the RTE "Marian Finucane Show", a developer by the name of Mr. Dunne spoke on the radio show. And the contents of that interview made its way into a Sunday Tribune article by Justine McCarthy and I want to just refer to what was referenced there. It talked about Mr. Dunne was at the time in Thailand with his wife and young son in late July 2005, with just seven days to secure financing before signing the purchase contract for Ballsbridge. This is the quote: "I phoned up a very good friend of mine, Richie Boucher. He's now deputy head of Bank of Ireland," Dunne remembered. "And, after about Wednesday, Richie said, 'Seán,' he said, 'if I was trying to borrow the money you're trying to borrow, I wouldn't stay in Thailand. I'd come back to Dublin.' So I thought that was good advice, even though I wanted to stay in Thailand with my wife and son." Dunne goes on to say that he flew back immediately, landing in Dublin on Thursday night and this is the quote: "I went straight from the plane to a meeting. I spoke to Bank of Ireland. I spoke to Irish Nationwide and Paul McDonnell in Ulster Bank," he said ... and then, "That Friday night, at nine o'clock, Ulster Bank walked through the door of my office and ... they produced the letter for the full purchase price. The contract was signed the following Wednesday." Is this typical of how Ulster Bank provided loans in excess of a quarter of a billion euro?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Deputy, unfortunately, I can't comment on that particular situation, for both confidentiality and legal reasons. So I have to say I cannot respond to that. Forgive me but-----

No, that's fair enough and I won't press you on that particular issue. But forgetting ... parking Mr. Dunne's comments on RTE radio to one side, have you known, in your time as head of the bank, a situation where an approval of a loan of in excess of €100 million would be turned over in a number of days.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

As I ... as we've described in our ... in my submission, and the documentation I submitted to the inquiry, we had a very rigorous credit process, so any loan of such would have had to go to the Royal Bank of Scotland credit committee. We had no capability within Ulster Bank to do that. If that ... so, therefore, there was a process involved, that something like that would have had to go to a local credit committee, and then an RBS credit committee would have had to be convened, and that RBS credit committee would then have to sit, listen to the credit and then give an opinion or delay it. So there was a modus operandi.

And would that all happen before a letter of approval, in principle, would be given to a borrower?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Absolutely, absolutely.

And in your time ... so am I taking from your answer in relation to the procedures they had to go through that you are unaware, during your time as head of the bank, of a loan in excess of €100 million being turned around in a matter of days.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I mean, sometimes I wouldn't have been involved in loans of that case. So if, for example, the credit committees were lined up appropriately or due to meet, it's possible that the process could work that way, but the process had to work.

My expectation, given as a former chair of RBS credit committees with the difficulty there was in convening those kind of committees, that it would've taken more than a couple of days to get that organised.

And, again from your experience, as head of the bank, would it be ... are you familiar with situations where bank officials would go after hours to developers' offices or homes to provide them with letters of offers?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I'm not particularly familiar with that, Deputy. I can't say that it didn't happen, but I'm not particularly familiar with that as-----

Do you have any knowledge of it ever happening?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

To the best of recollection, Deputy, I can't say that I recall it happening. No, it stands out of the ... out of the norm. Normally what would happen is there would be a postal or there would be a meeting or you would go to people's offices. But outside of hours in homes is ... strikes me as being unusual and not normal practice.

Okay. Can I ask you, in relation to the ... and I'm referring to book of evidence, UBI - B2, page 28, and this is in relation to the inspection of commercial property lending exposures which was carried out by the Financial Regulator between 4 and 14 December 2007 and its General Findings - Medium Priority. The quote is:

The inspector's noted from the minutes of the RBS Group Credit Committee held on [the] 14 May 2007 that in relation to a €90 m[illion] facility being discussed for [blanked out customer's name], "The relationship team said they did not know exactly what the €70 m[illion] equity release would be used for", but that they were ... aware that [the blanked out customer's name], had tendered for two significant projects.

Was ... what was the bank's policy in relation to obtaining information on the purpose of a potential equity release?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Well, we would've had to have full details. So, in that particular case, because again I have cited the reply to that letter which has been submitted to the inquiry, the facility would've been granted subject to there being a referral of the ultimate drawdown. So it wasn't a case that there was a wallet or envelope available, irrespective of what the credit was. So when the ultimate drawdown would've come to the bank, there would've had to been an appropriate authority and review that that particular amount was relevant and appropriate and would've had to have been approved. So what this was a facility ... a general facility approval, that again, would've had to go through the process subsequently based on the information that would've been provided on the individual date.

Okay. The same inspector's report quotes minutes of the board meeting on 26 September 2007. It's on page 27 of the same book of evidence and it reads and I quote:

[The] Chair noted that the bank was not in a position where it had a full understanding of [blanked out customer's name's] liquidity. It was ... strongly emphasised that the bank needed information as to how [the customer] will generate cash and what its wider strategy is, as well as gaining further insight into the local strategy in relation to the build up of assets around [the blanked out customer's name and] the bank was now heavily exposed to this group and uncertain at this stage whether c. [€]500 million was the right number to be basing our appetite.

Can I ask you, given those board minutes, what was the problems, if any, with the credit review process in Ulster Bank?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I'm sorry, Deputy, I'm just trying to find this on my screen. Can you just remind me of-----

It's on page 27 and it's the inspector's report about how the bank was heavily exposed and uncertain at this stage whether half a billion euro was the right number to be basing their appetite on.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Again, Deputy, I have the advantage of the response in my hand and I'm satisfied that the response back to the inquiry ... to the letter, was to satisfy them, that due process had been observed by the credit committee in this regard. So it had been referred back to credit committee and dealt with on that basis, so the point was responded to in full.

Yes, but that's fine in terms of that there was a response issue. But this your ... this is your board minutes, Mr. McCarthy, and the board is actually saying that the bank wasn't in a position where it had full understanding of the customer's liquidity, that the bank needed information as to how the customer would generate cash, and this is a customer that belongs to a group that had half a billion euro exposure to your bank.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

The response that I have, firstly, it's not a board minute; it's a credit committee minute so there is a difference but I don't want to split hairs, but it's a credit committee minute.

The response that I have that's been submitted to the inquiry went back and said that full cash flow detail and analysis had been prepared in that particular case. So again, Deputy, this is part of the issue with ... again, if the inspectors from the Central Bank or the regulator had sat down with the team after completing their review and had that conversation, I believe that matter would have been resolved. But it was the nature of the process that meant this came back and then we had to respond. So I'm satisfied that the response dealt with the matter in that the credit committee did get cash flow information, did get full sight, and was deeply familiar with the details of the case.

Final question now, Deputy.

Yes, final question. At another meeting on 14 May 2007 - it's on the same page as the book of evidence, it was noted and I quote "the bank lacked a real understanding of the wider group liquidity, and we were unable to explain the inherent structural risk." And again, this isn't ... this is not the same minute that I referred to earlier on. This is a number of months earlier, your bank failed ... were unable to explain the inherent structural risk and lacked a real understanding of the wider group liquidity.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

And again, Deputy, with the benefit of the response in front of me, I'm satisfied that we responded in that regard and dealt with the matter. So-----

Could you satisfy this committee?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I'm happy the response has gone in to the committee, so it's part of the papers in the inquiry, so that has gone in.

But the question isn't ... the question is is how could your committee be recording the fact that Ulster Bank lacked a real understanding of the wider group's liquidity, were unable to explain the inherent structural risk of loans that you issued to customers?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

That was an independent committee. And I, from what I have seen, the individuals in Ulster Bank went back and satisfied the committee of those matters, so that shows that was good process and good questioning. I accept, as I've said all along, that we got things wrong, but in this particular case I'm satisfied that we responded to the query that they'd sent, that the regulator raised.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

But, Senator - sorry, Deputy, we didn't ... we made mistakes.

Just the date of the response, can you get the date of the response there, Mr. McCarthy, please?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Sorry, Chairman?

The date of the response.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

The date of the response was 22 July 2008.

Okay. Thank you very much.

Mr. McCarthy, I just want to deal with the issue of remuneration there just for a moment, and refer to core document UBI - B5. There is in that, there is a description of remuneration schemes in period 2001 to 2008, and there's also a list of top ten bonus payments and share option awards for each of First Active and Ulster Bank for the period of 2001 to 2008. In specific, I want to draw reference there to page 9, and if I could maybe put the question first to you that the salary bonus and pension plans offered to the senior executives of Ulster Bank were significant, and on reflection, do you believe that they were justified and appropriate for an Irish financial institution?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Well certainly I would agree they were significant, but they were competitive. So, salaries and remuneration, remuneration generally was bench marked and there was significant comparability and oversight from Royal Bank of Scotland, not just Ulster Bank. So at any point in time our salaries were independently benchmarked and found to be competitive. Certainly with the benefit of hindsight, Chairman, yes there was an excessive element to things, yes.

Bearing in mind the confidentiality factors there, you see redacted with regard to customers' information, but there is two employees have caught my eye: employee 14 and employee 15. In the year 2001, employee 14 and 15 received a bonus package of €65,000 and €45,000 respectively, and in 2003 their bonus packages went up in approximately on average €250,000 each.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Yes, Chairman?

How ... was that reflective of the, as Deputy, or Senator MacSharry there indicated earlier, the sales culture that was growing in the bank, and the grow fast approach, and coming back to the earlier presentation of gaining market share where employees were being heavily incentivised to extend the bank's lending?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I don't believe that was the driver. For a start, employee 14 and 15 in that year would've been First Active, and then in the subsequent year would have been Ulster Bank so it would've been much bigger business that those were reflective of. And the ... so, I mean both of those salaries would've been subject to RBS oversight, and one of them would have been subject to Royal Bank of Scotland remuneration committee oversight.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

So everybody had ... there was ... there was a ... in the same way as I described it for the business as a whole, there were ... there was a balanced scorecard of objectives, so, profitability, customer satisfaction, staff satisfaction, so there were multiple factors that drove remuneration and incentives.

So, in average terms, there is a fivefold increase in the bonus payments paid out to these two individuals over a three-year period. Would that be normal or would it be an exception?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Well, I think firstly, the fact of a much bigger institution came into play, so you go from the First Active business, which is much smaller, to the combined First Active and Ulster Bank, so there's a scaling factor in that too. And then there was general growth in the market and benchmarking. I mean, one of those would be mine, and I never had any input into my remuneration; I never had any input into my incentive scheme. The Royal Bank of Scotland remuneration committee, in latter stages, prior to that, the First Active remuneration committee would have decided on my remuneration.

And was there any risk associated or not, with this?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

In balanced scorecard terms, risk, under ... risk was just a constant in the business so again, nothing we did or could do could be done without paying attention to, and observing, the risk parameters that were in place.

Okay, but given your current position where you take a bet, you put odds on, and there's a gain and there's a loss. In the situation here, was there ever a factor built in with regard to remuneration, that if somebody got something wrong that the remuneration was claimed back?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

There was no claw-back in general market terms in those days. Claw-back is a norm now, but there was no claw-back in place in those days and clearly that wasn't right.

Okay, so just to get it on the record, there was no penalty in Ulster Bank if risk was found to actually be adverse and it impacted upon the bank?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Subsequent to receipt of a bonus, no, there was no claw-back. I'd imagine, Chairman, that there would have been more significant employment consequences to that extent, so one's job would be at risk, so ... I should say nobody ever set out to do anything on the basis of incentives in remuneration, that generally my experience had been, that was not a driver of people's performance particularly.

Okay, but in terms of motivation of people, the ... if there is no penalty for taking risk, is one likely or less likely to be more riskful?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Certainly, Chairman, it never crossed ... it never crossed my mind to do anything on the basis of ignoring risk. I think that remuneration structures subsequent to this have taken on board the claw-back matter. But at that point in time in the industry, there was no claw-back, there was no penalty, subsequently or at the time. Risk was a given and accepted and you didn't break ... you didn't break the protocols and the policies.

But in a bookmakers, you take out odds on the risk and your ... your odds are made out then by the level of the risk. In this case, there is reward for taking risk and there is no penalty for getting risk wrong.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I think, Chairman, at the time, as I said, risk was a given. I think there is ... there was no claw-back, as such, which is now in place. So remuneration schemes in the industry have claw-back as a standard, and deferral as a standard. I think the other ... the other thing that wasn't in place at the time was deferral. So most bonus schemes that exist in financial services at the moment have a defer element so that you don't get your full bonus at the end of the year, it's deferred over a number of years. That allows one to take account of the risk issue as things emerge in time, as well as claw-back of bonus.

So, on reflection of this, do you believe that this was good or bad practice in terms of the bank making decisions?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

All I can say, in my own case and the experience of the people I worked with, Chairman, nobody ever set out to do anything, to take risk for granted, risk was a given. That said, I accept that with the benefit of hindsight and looking at it now, the structure of some of these schemes and the quantum of these schemes was excessive.

Okay, thank you. Deputy Eoghan Murphy. Deputy, ten minutes.

Thank you, Chairman. Mr. McCarthy, I just want to pick up where Deputy Doherty left off, if I may, and that's the letter from the regulator from 12 March 2008, and the reference document is UBI - B2, page 24. It took three months to reply to the concerns that Deputy Doherty already examined with you. Would that be an average length of reply or is there a delay there?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Well it was ... it was definitely too long, Deputy, so I accept that. The principal reason for the delay would have been, as I explained earlier, the nature of the engagement, which would have been to come into the institution, to do the work and then leave and then send us the letter and thus, there would have been a significant amount of work to be done to get all the papers back together again, to look at them, to make sure that all the answers were ready. So that would have taken an amount of time. As to whether the length of time here was appropriate or not, on the face of it it seems to be lengthy, but I can understand the amount of time it takes to do these things properly, because we took our responsibility seriously in this regard.

I think you said earlier that matters could have been dealt with during the review with the regulator.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Correct, I believe so, yes.

If you could just help me then with ... on page 24, in the letter from the regulator, the first bullet says:

Following a request by the inspection team to meet with the relationship managers at [the bank, at Ulster Bank] our inspection team was advised by senior management that this may not be appropriate. In this regard, I would be obliged if you advise all staff of their obligations under Section 17 A 3 (e) of the Central Bank Act, 1971 as amended".

Can you explain that bullet to me?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Yes, it's not ... I can give you what the answer was in the letter we responded and we did explain and the answer is that we noted their comments and confirmed that all staff were aware of their obligations. That's not satisfactory, there is no reason why I would want restricted access to be given to anybody in the institution. So at the time, if the regulator had raised an issue with me or my senior staff about access to people, I would have dealt with it at the time, so-----

Is that not a case of the regulator trying to meet with senior staff and them refusing to meet with the regulator?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

That would have been people who were further down in the organisation, so this would have been about meeting relationship managers who handled client relations. It was not about meeting people further up the organisation. So what the letter seems to be saying is that Central Bank inspection team or the regulatory inspection team had asked to meet relationship managers who dealt individually with clients and for whatever reason that was denied----

I mean the regulator wouldn't be contacting them directly, they would be going through their managers-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Of course ... I would suspect so, yes.

So would that mean senior staff would then deny the opportunity for the regulator to meet with those relationship managers?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Unfortunately, Deputy, I don't know. All I can say is that I would never had a problem with the regulator speaking to relationship managers and on foot of the letter, we went back to the regulator and, as requested, said to them that we had explained to our people what their responsibilities were in this regard. But if the regulator had come to me or to my senior executives at the time and raised this issue, I believe that there would not have been a problem, so I don't understand how the matter arose. If it had been brought up at the time, I believe it would have been dealt with appropriately in allowing access and subsequently we responded to the regulator to say that "Yes, we were conscious of our obligations and had told our people what they were".

If we take then the incidence of the interaction, the exchange of letters over this inspection process by the Financial Regulator and some of the comments that you've made in terms of your interaction with them being periodic or there being no regular dialogue, could you characterise then your bank's relationship with the regulator in that period when you were CEO, 2004 up to 2008?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

As I've said earlier, it was respectful and appropriate, we respected the regulator, we regarded our obligations as being, you know, as being serious. We sought to behave and observe all the appropriate protocols, we took inspections seriously. The relationship was characterised, I think we've submitted something like 300 pieces of correspondence for the relevant period to the inquiry, so there was a fair degree of interaction, but typically it was situational and thematic. There was little enough, kind of broad-based discussion, you know, I would have met the chairman of the Central ... the Governor of the Central Bank and the chief executive of the regulator probably annually for a general discussion, but typically the engagement was around situational matters, inspections, industry-thematic things. I mean, 60% to 70% of the engagement was around consumer matters not prudential matters, so typically what you're seeing in the flow of documents would have been not unusual in that there would have been an inspection or review, a thematic issue came up, a customer issue or a fee issue or something like that, so a lot of the dialogue and engagement was to that end.

Would you ever discuss the Financial Regulator or your relationship with the Financial Regulator with your parent bank, with RBS, would that-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Yes, indeed and our parent bank would have met with the regulator when they visited, so for example, the head of regulatory risk or regulatory risk in Royal Bank of Scotland would have met with the regulator. Senior management from Royal Bank of Scotland would have, as a matter of courtesy, if they were visiting Dublin would have met the regulator, say, on an annual basis, so the chief executive of Royal Bank of Scotland Group would have met the Governor of the Central Bank or the chief executive of the regulator on, say, an annual basis when visiting Dublin.

And would letters like these been brought to their attention?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

To the attention of?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I can't recall - the process would have been the group policy committees, that RBS members sat on, would have sight of these. There were independent directors on our boards, so it was agreed that they would have oversight and in some cases the board of Ulster Bank Limited would have regulatory conversations and issues brought to it and there were Royal Bank of Scotland members on that, so but to the extent a detailed matter like this would have been escalated right up to the top of RBS, I'm not sure, Deputy.

And when you talk about receiving a non-objection, you know, you introduce a new product into the market, or a new policy-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Yes.

-----there's a non-objection; is that the same as approval?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Yes, I suppose so, Deputy, in that if the regulator had said to us, "Don't do this" and had brought their ... you know, as has been seen subsequently, you know, had brought themselves to bear on us, we were respectful enough. Now, in fairness, we would have had a discussion about it, but, ultimately, if the regulator told us not to do something, we wouldn't have done it. For example, the 250% limit, we did not breach that limit, so we were conscious of our obligations and respectful of the regulator. So, you know, non-objection is tacit agreement, but if the regulator told us not to do something, we wouldn't have done it.

And what about being proactive in your approach with the regulator, ever going into them prior to September 2008, with a concern, say, over a particular product or, for example, an accounting standard, IAS 39?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

On the latter point, Deputy, the accounting standards were the accounting standards. They were a given and they were accepted and then there was a huge amount of work went into it. We would have had a lot of engagement with the regulator over stress testing, so on a macro-prudential side of things, there was regular stress testing which was done and so that would have been quite an important series of engagement. When Basel II and ICAAP came in, we would have had a lot of engagement with the regulator in that regard and, in terms of products, as I said, we would have notified the regulator of the introduction of the 100% mortgage. But that was the general flow of things.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you very much, Deputy, and moving on, Deputy John Paul Phelan. Deputy, ten minutes.

Thank you, Chair, and welcome Mr. McCarthy.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Thank you.

I want to ask you firstly in relation to the relationship between Ulster Bank in the Republic and your parent company. Did the ability, and it was touched on by previous speakers, to borrow from your parent company, did it allow you to expand your loan book at a faster rate than if you were relying on funding from other, third party funding sources?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I don't ... I don't believe so, Deputy, on the basis that there was a risk framework to our lending and funding and lending were separate, so treasury and capital risk were one part of the engine and credit and risk were another part, so to the extent that we had credit policies and approval policies, we couldn't breach those, even if we had the money, but, that said, having access to liquidity is not unhelpful, particularly from a cost perspective. If you can access relatively cheap liquidity, it does enhance your capability to be competitive.

Okay. Can I ask ... changing subject slightly, I was struck by some of your answers earlier. Were you personally invested in the property market in your time in First Active, or in your time as chief executive of Ulster Bank, outside of your own residence, we'll say?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I did, Deputy, yes.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I wouldn't ... for pension planning purposes, Deputy, yes, but significant is a judgment call. I did invest in property outside my home, yes.

Okay. In Ireland or overseas?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

In Ireland and overseas.

Okay. Can I ask in relation to the 100% mortgages issue, which previous speakers have touched on in questioning to you and you've pointed out that other products existed in other financial institutions at the time prior to the marketing initiative that Ulster Bank undertook, a direct quote from last week, Mr. Goggin, former chief executive of Bank of Ireland, I want to specifically quote what he said. He said that, "The pioneers of 100% mortgages was Ulster Bank, through First Active, and we actually, when the concept of providing 100% mortgages was first raised at a group risk policy committee, my recollection is it was declined and by the time we came to providing 100% mortgages, we were very much a reluctant follower." Do you believe that Ulster Bank ... or that analysis, that Ulster Bank effectively were the drivers because there was a significant marketing effort made for this particular product?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

We certainly did ... we put it on the counter, for want of a better phrase. The product ... I'm satisfied that the product already existed and was being accessed and delivered by others. Our policies were such that we couldn't offer it, other than to professionals, so to do it, arguably properly, we had to go through a process and approve it and put it on the shelf. So, yes, we did launch the product in a public way, so ... but to that end, it didn't make significant difference to our market share in time, so ... and the total amount that we lent as a percentage of our portfolio amounted to some 4%, so it wasn't a significant part of our business, as it turned out.

4%. What would it have been, sorry, originally under ... before it was marketed as a product at first-time buyers, what percentage would it have been originally?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

It would have been less than 1%, Deputy.

So 4% was still a huge increase on where it was?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I don't gainsay that, no, in fairness. I've accepted we made a mistake.

What would 4% have been figures-wise, do you know?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

As I said in my opening statement, approximately €1 billion of lending over three or four years.

Okay. I want to refer briefly to the site in Dublin 4, the hotel site which has been referenced by previous speakers in their questioning. Ulster Bank was the major funder. I think it was ... the purchase cost of the site was in the region of €380 million. Where you sit or stand now, what do you think of the decision that was made in 2005 to fund that particular investment?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I'm sorry, Deputy, with respect, I can't, I can't answer that question, because it's ... there's a matter, firstly, of customer confidentiality, and there's a legal matter there.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

So, Chairman, I can't answer that question, if that's okay.

That's agreed.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Sorry, Deputy.

Can I ask just for clarification on what is the legal ... I'm asking for his opinion now on that particular investment. It's the most renowned property investment that happened at the height of the boom. I don't ... I'm not looking for personal details of why the decision was made at the time, but can I just get some clarification on-----

Well if the ... I just need to check on the witness, if you're saying that this is a matter of some proceedings at the moment; is that what you're saying?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I believe-----

Or is it commercial sensitivity?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I believe that it is extremely commercially sensitive, Chairman, so I would prefer ... I would prefer not to answer the question. I believe it is extremely sensitive. That has been, Chairman, that has been ... in preparing for this I was conscious that this matter may arise, and I took some advice, as you'd expect, and my best advice is that I should not-----

Okay, all right, that's fine.

Okay, well look-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I apologise, Deputy, but-----

I won't ... I won't ... I won't pursue it, but it is, you know, I just wanted to put on record, it's probably the most significant property investment that happened at that particular juncture. Can I ask you, Mr. McCarthy, did you ever seek to have Ulster Bank loans transferred into the National Asset Management Agency provisions when it was established?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Yes, Deputy, as I said in response to, I think it was Senator D'Arcy's question, we did engage with NAMA in its early stages to see if there was any possibility of us selling assets to NAMA. NAMA was the only buyer of assets in the market at the time. There was no liquidity available from anything else, so it would have been reasonable for us to try to do that. As it turned out, those conversations didn't last very long, because it was the guaranteed banks that were involved in NAMA, and nobody else. So nothing came of very early stage conversations.

Okay. I want to again refer to a line of questioning that previous questioners have referred to, which is the sectoral limits, the 250% limit that was increased to 500%. We've had evidence from previous witnesses, most notably Mr. Gleeson, among others, who have observed that these sectoral limits, as set out by the regulator at the time, were guidelines more than limits. I just wanted to ask in relation to your activities in Ulster Bank, did you see them merely as guidelines or were they hard and fast limits which you tried to adhere to?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

We believed that to be a limit, and we adhered to it. Hence the capital planning exercise we did around our Northern Irish bank and our Republic of Ireland banks, so we believed that to be a limit, and we observed the limit.

You didn't breach it at any-----?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

No, we didn't breach it, no.

Okay. My final question, again, I can't remember who asked you the question earlier about your personal view on the guarantee, and I'm conscious of the fact you mentioned that you had a meeting with Mr. Lenihan on the day after the guarantee, but you didn't answer the question with relation to your own view as to the guarantee. Can you ... are you in a position to give the committee an insight into what was happening in Ulster Bank at that particular juncture?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I've tried to do that in my statement, Deputy, and, to that extent, I'm sorry if you feel I haven't answered the question. It's difficult for me to give an opinion on something that I had no involvement in and wasn't anywhere near the action, for want of a better phrase. So literally I heard about it the following morning, so all my insight is based on subsequent to that. What I've said is I can try to understand what the circumstances were at the time, but nothing beyond that.

As I've said in my statement and subsequently ... it had significant ... it had a significant impact on Ulster Bank in terms of deposit outflows. And, indeed, on Royal Bank of Scotland because money was not just flowing out of Ulster Bank in Ireland. Money was flowing out of high street banks in the United Kingdom into Irish banks in the United Kingdom as well ... because they all had operations in the United Kingdom. So collaterally, at that point in time, it wasn't just an issue for Ulster Bank, it was a broader issue. In many ways the UK banking system ... and ultimately the UK banking system had a bailout on 13 October which ... was not long after the Irish Government guarantee. So the impact ... the impact on Ulster Bank was immediate and significant.

What were your superiors in Royal Bank of Scotland ... can you give us any insight into what they were saying to you at the time in relation to the impact of the guarantee ... or was ... are you at liberty to divulge that?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I am, Deputy. They encouraged us to try and join the guarantee. So the view at the time of my superiors in Royal Bank of Scotland was that, given we were a systemic bank in the Irish market ... and that the guarantee was arguably afforded for systemic institutions ... that it would be in our best interest and in the interests of the RBS group to try and avail of the guarantee, given that enormous stresses at the time in the UK banking system and in Royal Bank of Scotland. So ... the idea that one of your subsidiaries, a systemic bank in, say, Ireland could avail of a guarantee to prevent the outflow of deposits ... not to do anything else but to prevent it ... was obviously attractive. So my superiors would have encouraged me to try and participate in the guarantee.

Final question now, Deputy.

-----or any other employees of Ulster Bank have subsequent meetings with Minister Lenihan or others ... officials of his Department about ... about pursuing that?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Yes, Deputy. We had a number of meetings during the course of October in an effort to try to reach an accommodation or a situation where we could avail of the guarantee. We submitted quite a number of documents, board meetings in the main and added papers ... that Ulster Bank board meetings where this discussion took place. And, as I said, ultimately, we made our best effort but it wasn't possible for us to avail of the guarantee in time. So some time, you know, in late October, we ... we ceased and desisted from trying to do that. That said, at the same time ... you know ... the bailout of the UK banking system had brought some measure of stability, although we were still challenged. And we still would have liked to get into the guarantee ... it just was not possible for us to do so.

Okay, thank you. Deputy Kieran O'Donnell.

Just to follow up on that, Mr. McCarthy ... and welcome. In terms of your interaction with the Minister for Finance ... who did you actually meet at Government level in terms of looking to be ... to form part of the guarantee ... to join the guarantee?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

We would have met the Minister ... and my chairman and I would have had meetings with the Minister and, as I recall it, with the Attorney General at the time as well because there were significant legal matters associated with it. We would have met with the Secretary General of the Department of Finance and we would have met with the assistant secretary general of the Department of Finance as well. They would have been the main dialogue we would have had. Obviously, I was in contact with the Governor of the Central Bank and with the chief executive of the regulator at the same time ... so there was-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Mr. Neary and Mr. Hurley-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

-----yes, So there would have been a series of dialogues between my chairman, Sean Dorgan at the time, and myself and-----

How often did you meet?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I can't, I can't recall. There would have been ... with the Minister, there would have been no more than one or two meetings with his ...with his Department of Finance officials ... where most of the work was being done ... there would have been a number of meetings. But there would also have been a lot of, you know, telephone conversations and e-mail exchanges-----

And that was over the month of October.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Over the month of October, yes.

What was the issue that gave rise ... that you couldn't join the guarantee?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Ultimately, it would have required Royal Bank of Scotland to guarantee, effectively, Ulster Bank, which was the same difference as being in the guarantee, if you know what I'm saying. So ... the ... the way the guarantee was structured would have required Royal Bank of Scotland to effectively guarantee Ulster Bank and the Financial Services Authority in the UK, who was the regulator of Royal Bank of Scotland, saw that as being akin to essentially providing a UK state guarantee to Ulster Bank, which was a separately regulated and rated entity. And there were other matters. There were operational issues about appointments of directors. As you'll recall, the Government at the time insisted on appointing directors to the boards of the banks. That would have been challenging in governance terms ... although RBS could have got there with that ... but it was principally around the fact that RBS would have had to provide a guarantee for Ulster Bank ... which had ... would have had the same effect as the Government guarantee at the time.

And did the UK regulator ... was of the opinion that was not acceptable, is that correct?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

No. We just got to a point where ultimately, it was just not possible for us to do it. We understood where the Irish Government were. We had our own position. Our regulators were in a certain position and it just wasn't possible. I think as well, Deputy, the passage of time ... in that month ... I mean, a lot happened in that month ... the passage of time-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

In October 2008, with, you know, with the bailout of the UK banking system, added some measure of stability to the Royal Bank of Scotland situation and, collaterally, to our situation. So, you know, within a month the ... not the urgency of the issue, it was still a pretty stressed time, things had settled to a degree.

And was there an outflow ... did the guarantee being put in place in Ireland, did it have an impact on your deposit base in Ulster Bank in Ireland?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Very significant. Within a period of weeks there were billions of wholesale customer deposits and a degree of retail deposits flowed out of the institution, yes. It was-----

Did it put, did it put Ulster Bank Ireland under financial pressure?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

We had to get an increase in the inter-group limit that we had from Royal Bank of Scotland. So we would have had a funding limit approved by the Financial Services Authority that ... which would have governed the amount of money that Royal Bank of Scotland could lend to Ulster Bank, so as soon as the guarantee came in we had to get that increased because the only place at the time we could get funding that we'd lost was from Royal Bank of Scotland-----

And was that ... was that a function of the UK regulator?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

It was function of Royal Bank of Scotland and the UK regulator, who were also our regulator in Ulster Bank in Northern Ireland-----

How big of an increase was that, how big of an increase was that?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

A number of billions, Deputy.

So, we'll say in total, what level of billions would have flowed out in that month?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

A number of billions, so it would have been of the order of €2 billion to €3 billion.

Okay, and what would your deposit base have been at that time?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

As I recall our deposit base was of the order of €20 billion to €25 billion which was-----

It was significant.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

It was very significant. Yes, Deputy, very significant.

Can I just make a point? How much, between directly and indirectly, how much of UK taxpayers' money has been put in to Ulster Bank in Ireland?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I think ... I've been asked that question already, it's ... on the face of it, the capital that Ulster Bank got from Royal Bank of Scotland was of the order of €14 billion to €15 billion. That was ... that came from Royal Bank of Scotland. The capital that ... and I have no wish to be ... to get into semantics on this, but it's not unimportant. The capital injection that was made into Royal Bank of Scotland in 2008 had nothing ... little or nothing to do with Ulster Bank. So that money was in to deal with Ulster Bank, sorry with Royal Bank of Scotland-----

But in essence, if Ulster Bank had been a stand-alone Irish bank, you would be looking at potentially up to €14 billion of Irish taxpayers' money being invested in Ulster Bank.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

It's impossible to make that comparison, Deputy. The reason for that is Ulster Bank is not ... was not a quoted public company so, therefore, we had no capital base or no foreign businesses to sell, as some of the Irish businesses did, to generate capital. Our capital buffer at the start was less than it was, so if you look at the capital that was injected into the Irish banks, versus the provisions they made, there's a substantial difference. Ulster Bank's capital versus provisions is essentially one-for-one. We had no access to NAMA, so we had to make provisions on the basis of the lowest point in the market. I have no wish, Deputy, to underestimate the significance of this loan-----

I suppose the question I'd ask is if NAMA was an option, would Ulster Bank be in a healthier position today?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I think Ulster Bank is, as it stands, in a reasonably, as I understand it, healthy position. So Royal Bank of Scotland has committed to the future of Ulster Bank in Ireland and the business is trading and lending so my understanding is that right now Ulster Bank is ... is, is operating in Ireland-----

But if NAMA had of been an option, you would have taken it?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

It's very hard to say Deputy, the circumstances were so different and ... and comparisons are almost impossible to make.

Can I move on to the whole issue on the loans? At what level did you have to seek approval from Royal Bank of Scotland, at which level did they kick in, in terms of loan approvals in terms of Ulster Bank?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

It varied depending on credit grades, so typically what you have in any particular loan is-----

An average, an average.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Anything, typically €30 million to €50 million, above that had to go to Royal Bank of Scotland credit committee.

So if you were typically putting a loan, of the order of the loan that's been mentioned in terms of the Ballsbridge site which was well in excess of €300 million, what type ... in a typical loan, what type of due diligence would be done? Would you give loans on the basis of land ... on the basis of land and development that would be subject to planning permission being applied for and obtained, as distinct from giving the loan without ... without planning permission? What would the normal due diligence you would have done?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Every situation would have been different Deputy, for obvious reasons, so, depending on the particular instance, there would be different levels of due diligence or various requirements, so every loan was different. But at that particular level you're talking about, that would have to have gone to an independent Royal Bank of Scotland credit committee, and as we have submitted in the papers to the inquiry there was a significant degree of due diligence required for credits of that level across the Royal Bank of Scotland group, and there would have been a significant amount of information provided to the credit committees. As Deputy Doherty's questions have arisen vis. what the regulators asked us of, there was quite a degree of independent oversight.

You've a few minutes, Deputy.

Yes, and, typically, in terms of the ... did you have any internal controls about the percentage of the loan book in terms of land and development that would be in any one particular loan?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

We had. There were large exposure caps, yes, across the Royal Bank of Scotland group. So those large exposure caps had to be governed and run through RBS policies as well. So anything between €300 million to €500 million on a group basis required what was known as advances committee. So there were caps on individual and collective exposures.

Well, can I make ... in 2005, what would have been your level of, we'll say, a land and property development loans issued in that particular year, roughly?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I don't have that information immediately to hand, Deputy. I can provide it.

Well, you were ... you were CEO over those years. Typically, what were you lending per annum?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I think the evidence shows that the lending per annum - let me get my numbers here to hand - was typically of the order of maybe ten ... across the whole group, maybe about ten ... about €10 billion.

No, I'm talking purely Ulster Bank Ireland, Ulster Bank Ireland.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

It would have been ... Ulster Bank Ireland Limited, a couple of billion, Deputy.

So, typically, what? €2 billion?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Probably, but I'd have to come back and correct that figure.

Okay, one minute, Deputy.

So you'd be talking that 15% of your entire loans issued in 2015 ... in 2005 went to the Ballsbridge site, which had ... appears to have had no planning permission in place. How would that have arisen? How would that satisfy due diligence requirements?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Again, Chairman, I'm sorry, I just do not want ... if it's ... I do understand the question, Deputy. I cannot talk about that particular-----

Okay, you'll need to move on from that question.

Well, it's the process I'm more interested in. I'm not talking about ... but the process, that you have a loan here making up 15% of the entire loan book issued, the land development in 2005, a site with no planning permission. So the question I'm asking, what due diligence process would you have gone through when you're saying it would have been heavy due diligence? How would these two particular issues have got through that due diligence process?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

In any individual case, there would be significant documentation and due diligence done for any large case that we would have lent ... we would have lent. They were the standards and requirements of the credit committee process, so we would have had to have appropriate independent valuations-----

And you would have made a recommendation to the RBS board ... this particular ... if it went to the RBS board, you would have been making recommendation that this loan would be granted?

Okay, that's it.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

No, if ... if anything ... on any large case ... no case would be brought from Ulster Bank to Royal Bank of Scotland credit committee without a local approval. It would have had to go-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

-----through the local approval process first. It's not ... it would be impossible for a rejection at local level to get taken to Royal Bank of Scotland credit committee, Deputy.

Okay, thank you, Mr. ... Deputy, and thank you, Mr. McCarthy. Deputy Michael McGrath. Deputy, ten minutes.

Yes, thank you very much, Chair. You're very welcome, Mr. McCarthy. Can I just clear up one thing with you? And that is in the immediate aftermath of the announcement of the guarantee, you said you met Minister Lenihan the following day. Was that on the Tuesday, the 30th?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

That's correct, Deputy, yes.

Yes, okay. And just the day after that again, Minister Lenihan, in the Dáil, in response to a number of Deputies when the Credit Institutions (Financial Support) Bill 2008 was being discussed, a number of Deputies raised the impact of the guarantee on non-Irish banks, including Ulster Bank. The leader of the Opposition, Enda Kenny, raised it as well, and Minister Lenihan said on that day in the Dáil, "I understand one of the institutions, namely, Ulster Bank has made an application to the Government [to join the guarantee]." Was ... is that the case at that stage?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

That would have been the case, so we would have ... we would have either written or verbally requested to join the guarantee, and that was part of the process I discussed with Deputy Phelan, where we-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

-----went by ... we went through a process of discussion and communication with the Department of Finance on that matter. So, yes, we would have written in, I'd ... we would have written in to say, "We would like to avail of the guarantee."

On 30 September?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Probably, likely. It was ... a lot happened on that day, so-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

-----logically, we would have written either that evening or the following morning.

Okay. And were you lobbying politically as a bank? Were you making representations to politicians to be included in the guarantee?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

We made it known through our normal channels that we had challenges in this regard and that we would like to avail of the guarantee, yes.

Okay. And were there any contacts that you're aware of between the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for example, in the UK - I know they hadn't bailed out your bank at that stage - but between them, for example, and the Irish Government in that 24-48 hour period?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I have heard it said that there were contacts, but I have no personal evidence of that, so it was said at the time that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had contacted the Minister, but I have no personal evidence of that.

Okay, but we can take it that the bank sought to be added to the guarantee as soon as it became aware of the guarantee as such. So on the 30th or perhaps on 1 October.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

That is correct Deputy, yes.

Okay. And just to pick up on Deputy O'Donnell's questioning about the direct impact and the immediate impact it had and in terms of your... your deposit base and you make reference to 8 October, the UK Government announced £500 billion bank rescue package and then five days later, the bailout of RBS and Lloyds Bank. Did it ease somewhat after 8 October? What was the critical period, was it a week, ten days, two weeks, of significant outflows of funds?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

It was two weeks in particular Deputy, when most of the, for want of a better phrase, damage was done. And it kind of settled, post the UK bailout, but we didn't... recovering the position was very challenging. So the money that went did not repatriate itself to Ulster Bank as a result of the UK bailout, that money took an awful lot longer to come back. So we were still at a deficit compared to where we were, on say 29 September.

There is a reference as well in your statement that around this time, when the guarantee had been issued by the Government, "certain of our Irish bank competitors persuaded a significant number of our depositors to move their money from [Ulster Bank Group] to avail of the suggested greater security provided by the Guarantee." Do you want to elaborate on that?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Yes, pretty quickly after the guarantee was announced there was predatory behaviour on the part of certain institutions. People in certain institutions contacting customers to the effect that, you know, "Bring your money in here, there is a State guarantee, it is much safer." So that behaviour, and in fact that behaviour became public knowledge. So there were some... I certainly believe there were some media reports to that effect.

Who was doing that?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

There were a number of institutions. So that definitely happened, we were aware of that from customer contact.

In the Republic?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

In the Republic and outside the Republic. Elsewhere, I think I explained, elsewhere ... earlier on, that this was not confined to the Republic of Ireland because the guarantee embraced the international divisions of the Irish banks, therefore those, perversely at the time, the Irish Government guarantee was the best guarantee in the world for a period of... a short period of time. Therefore money, internationally would have moved into Irish banks, because the system was very stressed at the time. That would... we would have seen that in the United Kingdom.

And what were they targeting? Was it corporate deposits?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

It was principally wholesale and corporate, because they were significant... they were of size. So if you were aware that a customer had a large amount of cash, and because you had a knowledge of a customer, then it would be... you know, it is easier to get that then a whole load of small deposits. So that was the behaviour at the time.

It didn't last very long, the regulator stepped in very quickly and the instruction was issued. I believe the Minister may have said something at the time that the guarantee was not to be used as a means of acquiring deposits. The guarantee was meant to be protecting your existing base and not as a means to go and take deposits from other institutions.

And did Ulster Bank feel that the guarantee was being abused?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

At the time for... in certain occasions, that was how it felt Deputy, yes. Because we did not believe that the purpose of the guarantee was to be used as a marketing tool to harvest deposits. We believed that it was a protection mechanism and it was being used as a marketing tool to harvest deposits.

And how serious did the situation become for Ulster Bank before the UK bailout was announced?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Well, as I said earlier, we had to increase and get permission to increase the intergroup line that we had from RBS by a number of billions. So we had to get support from Royal Bank of Scotland and collaterally from the Financial Services Authority who would have had to approve that intergroup line. And that was forthcoming, so RBS were, you know as good as their word and stood up to it.

As you mentioned earlier, Ulster Bank didn't participate in NAMA, so can you advise what happened to the property and development loan book within Ulster Bank?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Well...you know I left... I left the bank in April-May of 2011, so a lot happened after I left.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

But up to the time I left, given that there was no activity in the market at all, all we could do was mark to what the NAMA marks were. So we basically benchmarked our portfolio to what the best knowledge we had of what NAMA was valuing portfolios at. That was a very crude exercise-----

So, you wrote them down, is it?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

We wrote them down. So we took significant provisions in 2009 and 2010 in particular, when the NAMA haircuts as they're called came in.

So that was the only time in a completely illiquid market that we had any reference point. Subsequent to that, the market deteriorated further so after NAMA did its marks, the market went deeper and Ulster Bank had to mark further to, again, an illiquid and lower point in the cycle. In addition to that, RBS set up its own resolution vehicle and a number of Ulster Bank assets were transferred to that vehicle and so, to the question I was asked earlier about capital, RBS itself made a number of decisions around portfolio management that affected the quantum of capital that was injected into Ulster Bank, so therefore you have a situation where you have no comparability with what was going on between NAMA and the Irish banks and the Irish Government and capital and what was happening in Ulster Bank and Royal Bank of Scotland, in terms of capital and provisioning. And it will only be clear in time what the real comparability is, if at all Deputy.

But while you were there, that loan book was left within the bank and provided for in accordance with market value and the accounting standards.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Correct Deputy, yes. Now that's from a statutory perspective, the resolution, the way the resolution worked in Royal Bank of Scotland is the management of a chunk of those assets was taken out of Ulster Bank and managed by a separate unit within RBS.

Yes, a bad bank.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Correct. But in terms of governance and statutory accounting, those loans and they still are on the balance sheet of the Ulster Bank Group.

Okay. Can I just ask about the loan-to-deposit ratio in Ulster Bank Group, which peaked at 211%, as I understand, in 2007? Many commentators would say anything north of 120% is not a comfortable position to be in. How did the loan-to-deposit ratio go so high for Ulster Bank during your time?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I'm not sure that at the end of 2007 it was that high Deputy. I've seen a page in these documents that is an extract from a set of Ulster Bank Ireland accounts that actually, there were some errors in that 2007, which were subsequently corrected, so the loan-to-deposit ratio was closer to 130% to 140% at the time in reality. That deteriorated subsequently and did get to the order of the 200% level simply because of the stresses that happened in the liquidity markets. So Ulster Bank's loan-to-deposit ratio, in common with many others, deteriorated through the course of 2008 to the extent that it did reach levels close to 200% but that wasn't the case at the end of 2007.

My final question, just on the 100% mortgages, did you go beyond 100% in some cases and provide funding for doing up the house and a car loan and buying furniture?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

No Deputy, we were very strict on that policy.

Never more than 100% of the purchase price of the property?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

To the very best of my knowledge Deputy, that was the case. We restricted the product and there were very clear rules on it. So to the very best of my knowledge Deputy, no.

Deputy Higgins, Deputy you have ten minutes.

Mr. McCarthy, in your opening statement that you presented in written form to the inquiry on page 4 you say in 2003, that Ulster Bank contributed €350 million profit to the Royal Bank of Scotland and then you contrast that with €1 billion profits in Allied Irish Banks and €1.17 billion at Bank of Ireland. And then you say, "On this basis the enlarged [Ulster Bank] appeared to be punching well below its weight and to have a clear opportunity to challenge the ‘dominance’ of AIB and [Bank of Ireland]". So, as you became chief executive officer in January 2004, was your main motivation to catch up, profit-wise, with AIB and Bank of Ireland?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I think Deputy ultimately yes, but it's not as simple as that, in that the route to profit is through multiple channels so as a universal bank, we would have been looking at things like market share of current accounts, market share of mortgage lending, market share of business accounting so it would have been a broad base but ultimately, income or profitability is what defines success at the top.

Yes. But you then go on and give information in your statement in relation to loans to customers between 2004 and 2007 and Ulster Bank, which you were in charge of, extended a loan increase of 172% for the four years.

Now, Patrick Honohan, the Governor of the Central Bank, writing in the Economic and Social Review of summer 2009, said and I quote, "A very simple warning sign used by most regulators to identify a bank exposed to increased risk is rapid balance sheet growth. An annual real growth rate of 20% is often taken as the trigger." We had evidence here from Mr. Bill Black, a veteran regulator from the United States, of a similar nature. I know balance sheet growth is not exactly identical to bank lending, but there is a close correlation. So, should you have known that the rapid increase in lending, much of it for property, could have led to serious risks which is what happened?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I think Deputy, with hindsight, that is what happened and it is what we got wrong. We lent too much to the property sector and were overexposed. At the time, in the context of what I said at the outset, we believed that we would be taking market share so that growing from a lower base, one could grow by a greater percentage because one would be taking market share. Therefore, we were comforted by that to a degree, in terms of why would we grow more than the market, and the second point was our incorrect assumption about continued economic growth. The backdrop to what we were doing was, No. 1, we can grow by more than the other guys because we are smaller and can take market share. It didn't transpire that way. Secondly, all of the economic indicators to the backdrop of what we were doing were extremely positive.

Mr. Honohan goes on to talk about that that growth amount that he said contained risk was triggered by a number of banks. He concluded that this was a very obvious and public danger sign, not only to these two banks which he referred to, not Ulster here, but because of the potentially destabilising effect of reckless competition on the entire sector. You yourself, Mr. McCarthy, summed up as follows, "Despite Ulster Bank Group's significant growth during this period [that is 2004 to 2007] it is probably fair to say that the Bank's competitive position at the end of this period was, in reality, no different to that which it found itself in at the start." Could I ask you, would it be fair to sum up the situation in this way or not, that you all engaged in vicious competition, you all massively overextended in terms of property loans, you created a huge bubble and crash that devastated countless lives around Ireland, and apart from short-term profits which you had in a few years, you all finished up in mutually assured destruction? Would that be fair or not as a summation of what happened between you?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I have acknowledged that we made mistakes and we got our assumptions wrong. At the time everything we did, we did in good faith. I certainly did not make any decision on the basis of feeling that it was reckless. We did it with an environment that was positive. We did it with a, in my own institution, with an infrastructure of one of the largest banks in the world around us that made us feel that we were doing things in a proper way. It was very competitive, there is no doubt about that. The market was extremely competitive and that has been characterised by everybody, and we did get it wrong. As to whether I would characterise it as vicious, reckless, I don't believe that is the case because that is not how it felt at the time.

Mr. McCarthy, can I move on to the Jury's Berkeley Court situation? When did RBS Bank board agree to fund that project?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I am very sorry about this Deputy, but as I have explained earlier on to the Chairman-----

The fear of legalities have been expressed so unless you have a different approach to this, Deputy Higgins, we will move on to the next question.

Chair, can I remind everybody that Dáil Éireann dictated that the subject matter of the inquiry should be to inquire into the reasons Ireland experiences systemic banking crisis, including the political, economic, social, cultural, financial and behavioural factors and policies which impacted on or contributed to the crisis, by investigating relevant matters relating to banking systems and practices. I would say Chairman, that I am trying to explore banking systems and practices in relation to property loans.

I am trying to assist the inquiry just like yourself Deputy, and every member has the facility to engage with a legal team here, before they engage in a line of questioning with the witness. I am not too sure if you raised this matter or not with the legal team.

But if you had, you would have been informed of the specific customer matters in this regard are not engageable ... and there are other matters such as NAMA ... there are particular aspects of NAMA legislation that make it prohibitive to discuss these matters in this inquiry as well. But you can get an extensive legal briefing after this meeting as to why this ground is not coverable by your line of questioning.

Well, can we know ... can we know, for example, who delivered the letter to Mr. Dunne on the Friday evening of that July?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I'm very sorry, Chairman, I would like to help the Deputy but I feel I cannot discuss this matter-----

I don't think that compromises anybody. We have Mr. Dunne saying that the bank of Ulster ... the Ulster Bank came to his office on Friday night with a letter for ... covering the deal. Do we ... can you tell me who delivered the letter?

Again-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Again, Ulster Bank has never commented on this matter publicly, Chairman, so I feel ... I would like ... I'm here to help the inquiry, Chairman. I would be very keen to help in whatever way I can, I don't like not answering questions, but I feel-----

But how does it prejudice in any way ... to answer that question, Mr.-----

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I'm sorry, Deputy, there's a customer confidentiality issue here for starters, so that's-----

I'm talking about an employee of the bank.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

That relates to a customer. And the second point is, that there are legal matters affecting this particular matter that I-----

And as a general rule ... and I'll facilitate you with some time here, Deputy Higgins, because this engagement has kind of maybe brought us outside to your time allocation .... is for all members - and every member is aware of this - that if ... and the facilities available to all members prior to any, sort of, specific question that they might be engaged with ... there is the interaction with the inquiry investigation team that can be availed of and there is the process of engagement with the committee's legal team as well. And there is also, just in terms of due process and procedures, of due notification to witnesses before they come in before the inquiry, in this regard as well. So ... to maybe avoid situations like this, I would just, on a general note, ask members to avail these processes so we don't end up in a repetitive situation of a question being asked that has legal difficulties in this regard. So Deputy Higgins, I'll afford another two minutes ... two or three minutes.

Well, Chairman, I think it's highly unsatisfactory, frankly. And Mr. McCarthy, you know, you might be familiar with the fact that, you know, a journalist in The New York Times, writing in 2005, by coincidence, said something to the effect that Dublin had become known of something of the wild west of European finance. I'm trying to tease out the banking practices that led to this crisis. I'm not getting very far but, you know if ... would it be fair or unfair to push what he says ... what happened to a caricature of the town banker rushing the saloon door to get to the biggest rancher before other bankers get to them. Is ... doesn't it conjure a picture of really frenetic activity among banks to gain and win a major project, or not?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I think, in an effort to be helpful, Deputy, what I'd say is, it was very competitive, yes, the market was extremely competitive, and that was characterised across the piece, so it was a very competitive market. As to whether the language that's been used in extremis is how it felt at the time ... that's not how it felt. At the time, we felt that whilst it was competitive, the economic backdrop and the economic story in a European and Irish context was extremely positive. Again, the population was growing ... economic growth, we had full employment, there was a deficit in housing, there was a need for housing, so across the piece the view was that the economic backdrop was very sound and the forecasts were good. But I would completely agree, it was a very competitive marketplace, but at the time, it did not feel the way that you have characterised it. And that's all I can say ... that's how I felt at the time and how the business felt at the time. Certainly, it was competitive but the backdrop was very positive.

Well, I was putting it to you as ... that it might be caricatured as such or not.

Final question.

Final, final question? I had a little bit of time out there while you were clarifying the legal position.

You did and we stopped the clock as well. But I'm going to give you a bit of time, Deputy.

Yes, okay. Maybe two last questions now, very quickly.

Mr. McCarthy, you weren't able to give us a precise figure in relation to how much of the bailout to Royal Bank of Scotland would've been accounted for by the crash in the Republic of Ireland and the losses. But could I ask you, would you understand if the British taxpayers felt quite aggrieved that activities by a bank headquartered in Britain, should be bailed out by them, for activities in Ireland?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

In principle, Deputy, yes. And in my opening statement, I've expressed my regret and my, you know, effectively how I feel about it. I have said that I'm sorry for what happened. But in principle I agree with you; I would say that it's not as simple as that, and I've no wish to get into semantics. It is a significant sum of money, but the RBS bailout and capital injection from the UK Government, Ulster Bank was not a factor in that when it happened in 2008.

Last question so, Chairman.

Thank you very much, Deputy.

Can I ask you, Mr. McCarthy, if you are employee No. 14?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I believe I am, Deputy, yes.

Yes, in the thing. So, a question in two parts, which I'll ask at the one time for, that No. 1, your written statement and your colleague's written statements to come, the verbal one might be different, as happened today, there is no acceptance of responsibility whatsoever for any part in the property bubble and the banking disaster. Today, you did put it in, and you expressed regret. Did you do that as an afterthought? That's part A and part B, there were very, very high levels of remuneration for you in bonus terms, Mr. McCarthy, including €1.1 million in 2008, which was the year when the whole thing tanked. Do you think that that might sound extraordinary to the ordinary person out there or not?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I'll, I'll take both of your questions, Deputy. The first one is in submitting my statement, my written statement originally, I was trying to address the particular lines of inquiry in factual basis and it had always been my intention to make an opening statement and express regret because that's how I feel and that's how I felt. That's why I said what I said at the outset. So there was no afterthought; in any event, I've always felt this way and I expressed that today. So, my apologies if that creates any confusion but what I said at the outset was heartfelt and I reiterate that point. It was not an afterthought. As regards the €1.1 million, just to clarify and again yes, it was excessive. But that payment in 2008 was in respect of 2007. I received no incentive bonus for 2008, it's just the way it's presented. But to your question, it certainly, with the benefit of hindsight, it was excessive.

Thank you very much. Just before I go to the wrap-up, if I can maybe just ask you, Mr. McCarthy, did you ever invest in a property transaction that was actually financed by Ulster Bank?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

No, Chairman, I didn't.

Okay, thank you.

So we'll go to the ... move to wrap up. So, Senator Barrett, you have five minutes and then Deputy McGrath, sorry, Senator O'Keeffe, my apologies.

Thank you, Chairman, and ... the link with the Royal Bank of Scotland, you know, which had to be bailed out for £46 billion and in 2008 lost £24.1 billion, the largest annual loss in UK corporate history, that was unfortunate for Ireland that that kind of a bank was also trading here, wasn't it?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I, I really can't comment on the particular Royal Bank of Scotland Group circumstances. The matters that led to the bailout of the Royal Bank of Scotland were unrelated to Ulster Bank at the time. So, I, I unfortunately I'm not in position to comment on that, Senator.

Mr. Goodwin's pension was reduced from £550,000 to £342,500 in 2009. Were those kind of pensions paid in Ireland?

Now we are moving outside the terms of reference now Senator as well, this is the Republic of Ireland investigation that ends at the end of 2013.

The reduction of the pension by 38%, did something similar happen to executives in the Ulster Bank?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

The ... I'm a member of the ... deferred member of the Ulster Bank pension scheme and it's a different scheme to the one that, the one that was the case in Royal Bank of Scotland. It was a pre-existing scheme.

Were there any reductions?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

My pension, Senator, is a private matter. It doesn't vest until I'm 60. So there's been no disclosure of my pension.

Were there any pay reductions?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

There have been significant changes in banking subsequent to 2008, and I left the bank in 2011, so up to that point in time, I received no bonus or incentive subsequent to 2007 and I had no pay increases between 2007 and when I left in 2011.

Could I draw attention to the letters from the regulator, UBI - B2, pages 26 afterwards. You were saying to Senator O'Keeffe that lots of banks got these kinds of letters, but I have to point out for the record that there are two recommendations which are general findings and there are five more which are specific to Ulster Bank.

In fact, they're called on page 26 Ulster Bank IL -"Specific Findings". So, in fact, we don't know that other banks got the majority of that report on them, dated March 2008, isn't that right?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Sorry, just for clarity, Senator, the letters that I referred to as being generic were the 2003 letters that Senator O'Keeffe referred to. This particular letter was entirely specific to ... to Ulster Bank. It was a 2003 and perhaps the 2004 ... the letters, Chairman, that I received last night, that were generic industry letters with specific items for Ulster Bank. This particular letter relates to a specific inspection of Ulster Bank, and to the best ... I'm not aware of this letter or a version of it, going to other banks. I would say though that it would have been the norm that there would have been thematic inspections and reviews of other financial institutions.

You say on page 10 of your statement there was no apparent deterioration of the performance of the Ulster Bank group loan portfolio, but £14.9 million sterling had to be put into that, was ... so that was the deterioration that took place.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I mean, your numbers are correct, but at the time of the guarantee, as has been well discussed, the view abroad was that there was a liquidity, not a solvency issue, and that was where people where focused. So at the time of the guarantee ... and, indeed, our financial statements for 2008, and the subsequent work that took place in 2008 seemed to indicate, that what existed was a liquidity, not a solvency issue. Ulster Bank was no different in that regard than any other Irish bank. Events subsequently transpired differently.

The numbers you have on page 4, and discussed with Deputy Higgins, your advance is growing at 172% over four years, or second only to Anglo at 265% over four years, which was a major ingredient in the property bubble.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

That's a very big difference in percentage terms, Senator.

You come in No. 2.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

There is some ... there are some currency effect in that as well, but yes, we grew. I accept that we grew too much and we lent too much money to the property sector, I accept that.

Now, you spoke earlier ... my final question, on branch banking, but on page 7 of your statement it says: "Ulster Bank branches held no lending authority and everything was transferred to Credit", with a capital C. Now, you were defending the local branch bank manager earlier, but it looks like, by what you said on page 7, that the powers were being transferred away.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

That had been the case for many years before I took over as chief executive of Ulster Bank. That was the standard process in Ulster Bank before my arrival, that lending authorities were confined to the centre.

On HERMES to model property, there is no financial sector in HERMES, the ESRI economic model.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I accept that we used ... you know, what John FitzGerald did, and I know he's given witness to this inquiry, was we ... we used the property price corrections and the employment correction numbers to input into our model, so we used those factors as the appropriate inputs into our stress testing.

Thank you. Thanks Chairman.

Okay, thank you. Senator O'Keeffe?

Thank you, Chair. Mr. McCarthy, in relation to ... particularly in relation to property, but in general, did you think that, at the time as ... when you were a member of the board, that there was sufficient level of discussion and challenge at the board about concentration risks at both sector and borrower level that you were facing? Did you feel that it was a good robust board?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I did, Senator. There was quite a degree of conversation. A number of our non-executive directors would have raised property concentrations at various points along the continuum. We had various reports to the board at a variety of times from either internal management or third parties around the economy, and I think what the board did was accepted management's representations around the quality of the portfolio and the analysis that came behind that, which was significant, and also accepted the economic ... the general economic environment and expectations for growth that were there, but, yes, to the credit of the non-executive directors in the Ulster Bank board, it was a board that, you know ... it met regularly, and there was good debate, and there was good challenge. And I think that's been evidenced by some of the papers we referred to earlier where some of the non-executives were challenging what was going on in the business, so I think the evidence reflects that, Senator.

Given your evidence today, Mr. McCarthy, would you say that you were broadly satisfied with the bank's behaviour over the years that we've discussed?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Clearly, you know, I've said, Senator, that I greatly regret the mistakes we made and the assumptions we made. I'm sorry that that happened and the impact that that's had.

At the time, all I can say is, that it felt ... that we had appropriate structures, we'd appropriate oversight ... being part of a very large international and globally respected institution gave us comfort that there was second-guessing and testing of what we were doing. So, at the time, all I can say, Senator, is it felt appropriate.

As you watched the ... you know, the sort of crash develop and as developers became ... you know, their loans and their situation became more apparent ... and some of them in the public domain at the time ... was it the case that Ulster Bank discovered that some of the people they .... you'd be doing business with, particularly lending money to, did you find that they had been borrowing money from other banks and other financial institutions that you didn't know about when you lent your money to them?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

In most-----

And, if so, to what extent did that happen?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

In most cases, we had reasonable insight into ... particularly with our larger connections ... into what they were doing elsewhere, they gave us that evidence, so, yes, we had good insight. We didn't have validated detail in some cases, we made some mistakes in terms of checking that but, by and large, we had good insight into the cross-connections of our larger customers, yes.

Now, when you say good insight, do you mean that you ... you know, does that mean all of those loans were okay? Were you caught? Did people not give you information? Were there moments when, as I said, when you saw it unwinding that you realised certain people had used other vehicles, other consortium, other companies, other structures to not tell you about things or was it all just absolutely fine?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

No, I don't believe that we were misled by any customers. I don't believe that anything I saw after the event led me to think that the majority of our customers had been, you know, duplicitous or misleading with us in any way------

Well, I wasn't suggesting actually a majority. I was just trying to find out were there any.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

To the best of my knowledge, Senator, most of what transpired after the fact we had awareness of in advance. So we would have been aware of cross-connections and we would have been aware of other banking relationships. So a lot of our customers had a long and successful history with Ulster Bank, so we would have had good insight into what they were doing. We didn't have full documentation sometimes but we had very good insight into our relationships.

You mentioned your own property interests for ... I believe you said, for pension purposes. Did you enjoy favourable loan terms from Ulster Bank for any of that property or did you borrow from any other financial institutions or both?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I only borrowed from Ulster Bank for my personal residence, everything else I invested in ... I don't need to go there but for what it's worth, was all in cash.

It was all in cash. Okay. Other bankers have said that they ... and I know you weren't there the night of the guarantee and I'm not asking you, but they said they were surprised that all six banks were covered rather than four. What went through your head when you realised all six were covered?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I suppose my immediate reaction was what it meant for Ulster Bank, so I didn't have the luxury of spending much time on 30 October thinking about the whys and wherefores and who and what. My concern was what this meant for Ulster Bank and how we could deal with it, so, you know, again------

Yes, but surely in the day after or the week ... you know ... I mean you must have given some thought, no?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

You know, again, the difficulty with this, Senator, is I wasn't party to the conversations ... I wasn't party ... I didn't have any insight. I didn't have any insight at all, Senator, so it's very difficult for me to say. I mean, my immediate reaction was one of significant surprise on the day.

Okay. Just finally, I just notice and I just ... you might clarify that some of the passages in your statement here are repeated in your colleagues' statements and I just wondered why that might be.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I didn't confer with my colleagues ... with my former colleagues in preparation for this. None of us work with Ulster Bank any more, so I didn't confer with them. I've seen their statements, they were circulated to me by the inquiry, so-----

Yes, but there are passages that are pretty verbatim in each of your statements.

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

We would've had a very similar experience and I assume that ... I had significant briefing and input from Ulster Bank, so, you know, fortunately RBS-Ulster Bank have been very accommodating in briefing me for this and I got a lot of briefing papers. My assumption is that the briefing papers that I received were circulated to my colleagues as well and I took extracts from some of those briefing papers in preparing my witness statement. My only assumption is that my colleagues did the same ... my former colleagues did the same thing.

Thank you very much. Just one final question to you, Mr. McCarthy. In ... and correct me if I'm wrong in this regard, but a repetitive theme in your responses to a number of questions - most recently to Deputy Higgins - with regard to the crisis period was that it seemed right at the time, it felt to be the right approach and so on and kind of commentary of a similar regard, would that be fair enough?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I suppose, just to be clear, Chairman, the crisis period I consider to be sort of 2008 on. Prior to that was a ... let's just say it was the economic growth period. That period felt, you know, very competitive, but it felt that the circumstances were supportive of that at the time.

Yes, but would you be acknowledging that the seeds of the crisis were actually in the pre-2007 period?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

Indeed, Chairman, I would agree with that, yes.

Okay. In addiction models, there's a term called euphoric recollection and what euphoric recollection is when somebody is in danger of falling off the wagon and to engage in behaviours that were damaging to them in the past, that they recall their addiction in positive terms, euphorically, hence the term euphoric recall. Is there a danger in Ulster Bank, to your mind, or in the banking sector at large, that the type of mindset that was there, back before 2007, could be engaged in, in terms of euphoric recall again?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

I'm not familiar with the particular context that you describe, but I think what has happened in Ireland has been so searing in the public consciousness and the impact it's had on people in the banking sector, I certainly don't think in my lifetime that we're likely to see anything emerge again. History tells us that cycles repeat themselves and that history tells us that people always believe that they've learned from history and therefore they're destined never to repeat it and that may be the ultimate flaw. But I would say that, as regards the particular circumstances of what happened in Ireland in the banking sector, for the very ... for the foreseeable future, Chairman, I do not see any risk of that occurring.

Okay, thank you. Is there anything first you'd ... or anything you'd like to add before we complete this evening's session, Mr. McCarthy?

Mr. Cormac McCarthy

No, thank you for listening to me, Chairman.

Okay, with that said, I'd like to thank you, Mr. McCarthy, for your participation here this afternoon and for your engagement with the inquiry. I now propose that you be excused and I also propose that the committee will suspend until 6.45 p.m. and return in private session at that time. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 6.12 p.m. The joint committee resumed in private session at 6.45 p.m. and adjourned at 8.15 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 7 May 2015.
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