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Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis debate -
Wednesday, 17 Jun 2015

Nexus Phase

Department of Finance - Mr. Tom Considine

All right, as we have a quorum, the Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis is now in public session and can I ask members and those in the public Gallery to ensure that their mobile devices are switched off? In commencing session 1 today, we will be hearing from Mr. Tom Considine, former Secretary General, Department of Finance. I would like to welcome everybody to the public hearing of the Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis. Today we begin a series of hearings with senior officials from the Department of Finance who had key roles during the crisis period. At this morning's session, we will hear from Mr. Tom Considine, former Secretary General, Department of Finance. Tom Considine joined the Department of Finance in 1974. He was Secretary General of the public service management and development section of the Department of Finance from 2002 ... or from 2000 until 2002. Mr. Considine succeeded John Hurley as Secretary General of the Department of Finance in March 2002, a position he held until his retirement in 2006.

Mr. Considine, you're very welcome before the inquiry this morning. Before I hear from you, I wish to advise the witness that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect to their evidence to this committee. If you are directed by the Chairman to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to do so, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. I would remind members and those present that there are currently criminal proceedings ongoing and further criminal proceedings are scheduled during the lifetime of the inquiry which overlap with the subject matter of the inquiry. The utmost caution should therefore be taken not to prejudice those proceedings. Members of the public are reminded that photography is prohibited in the committee room. To assist the smooth running of the inquiry, we will display certain documents on the screens here in the committee room. For those sitting in the Gallery, these documents will be displayed on the screens to your left and right. Members of the public and journalists are reminded that these documents are confidential and they should not publish any of the documents so displayed.

The witness has been directed to attend this meeting of the Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis. You have been furnished with booklets of core documents. These are before the committee, will be relied upon in questioning and form part of the evidence of the inquiry.

So, with that said, if I can now call on the clerk to administer the oath to Mr. Considine, please.

The following witness was sworn in by the Clerk to the Committee:
Mr. Tom Considine, former Secretary General, Department of Finance.

So, once again, welcome before the inquiry this morning, Mr. Considine, and if I can invite you to make your opening remarks, please.

Mr. Tom Considine

Thank you very much, Chairman, good morning, and members of the committee. I thank you for allowing me to make this opening statement and I'll draw on my witness statement and summarise a number of points - the international and domestic background, the system of financial regulation, fiscal policy and the risks as they were seen in 2005 and 2006.

In relation to the international and domestic background, by 2006 financial markets had become increasingly globalised. They had become accustomed to readily available credit, significant product innovation, greater financial integration in the euro area, large current balance repayments in balances and lower risk premiums. Technology had transformed the efficiency, speed and complexity of financial instruments and transactions. This was supported by a strong belief that new modes of finance had reduced systemic risk. Against that background, Ireland experienced an extended period of strong economic expansion, interrupted only by lower growth rates in 2001 and 2002. Consequently, Irish expectations were high that living standards and assets ... asset prices would continue to advance. This, in turn, was reflected in strong demand for credit in housing. The Department's statement of strategy, particularly fiscal policy, was strongly influenced by the provisions of the programme for Government published in June 2002. The Social Partnership Agreement 2003 to 2005, entitled Sustaining Progress, also had a strong influence on fiscal policy. Fiscal policy, incomes policy and regulation were the key policy instruments available to the Irish authorities to manage the domestic economy within the euro area. This was recognised from the outset of our EU membership. The Department of Finance established an internal working group to examine the implications of EU membership. The report, entitled The Implications of EMU Membership for Various Aspects of Public Policy, was approved by the Minister of Finance for publication in October 1999 on the Department's website. And at page 10 that report states:

The “Celtic Tiger” economy is already having a major effect on expectations in terms of income, taxation and expenditure policy and it is clear that, far from moderating, these pressures are likely to continue to grow. In the circumstances, it will undoubtedly prove extremely difficult to persuade the social partners, interest groups and the public in general to accept a prudent fiscal stance.

Being a euro area member state, the Irish Government had no function in relation to official interest rates or the euro exchange rate. During the period 2002 to 2006 Ireland had a AAA credit rating and Irish banks were able to borrow wholesale funds at competitive rates.

Turning to the system of financial regulation, in October 1998 the Government agreed in principle to establish a single regulatory authority and established an implementation advisory group chaired by Mr. Michael McDowell, senior counsel. The group reported on 19 May 1999 and recommended that the single regulatory authority, or the SRA, should be an entirely new, independent organisation. As a member of the implementation group, I proposed an alternative model on behalf of the Department of Finance. This model located the SRA within a restructured Central Bank and provided for increased autonomy for the regulatory function but under the direct control of the Central Bank board. This alternative model is at appendix II of the report, page 79. In the event the Government legislated for a model with a separate board for regulation but within an overall Central Bank and financial services authority framework. The new model came into operation on 1 May 2003. The Government's White Paper, Regulating Better, was published by the Department of the Taoiseach in January 2004. It identified what the Government saw as the principles of good regulation, namely, necessity, effectiveness, proportionality, transparency, accountability and consistency. The White Paper advised, "The recommendations and actions in this White Paper are best seen in the context of the continuing drive for competitiveness and people's expectations of high quality public services."

The 2006 annual report of the Irish Financial Regulator, at page 26, refers to its approach to regulation in the following terms, "In order to ensure that our regulatory requirements do not become a barrier to competitiveness and innovation, we apply the Better Regulation principles which the Government published in January 2004 [...] and are an active member of the Taoiseach’s Better Regulation Group."

This approach in turn appeared to be aligned to the prevailing EU and wider international belief in the economic benefits of rational self-correcting markets and the merits of financial intermediation.

On fiscal policy, over the four years 2002-2006, each year the Department of Finance engaged with the Minister on the preparation of the budget strategy memorandum that was submitted by the Minister to the Government at mid-year. The Government decision, based on that memorandum, formed the basis for the preparation of the spending, taxation and borrowing ... and deficit-surplus framework for the upcoming budget. Government Departments were required to submit their spending proposals by early autumn, based on that Government decision. The Department of Finance would also prepare an estimate of the cost of funding the existing level of public services during the following year and this would be used as a reference point in discussions with Departments-Ministers in the lead-up to the budget. The budgets for 2003 and 2004 were difficult because, in each case, Departments were required to prepare their pre-budget expenditure figures at a level significantly below what the Department of Finance estimated it would cost to fund existing service levels during the following year. For the 2003 budget, the required reduction was €900 million and, in the case of the 2004 budget, the corresponding figure was €500 million. In the case of the 2004 budget, line Departments contended that the Department of Finance base was €2.1 billion too low. These two budgets were naturally unpopular and subject to criticism.

When it came to preparing the 2005 budget, the political pressure to ease up on what were seen as expenditure cuts was very strong. In addition, the pressure was more difficult to resist because the economic recovery from the 2001-2002 downturn was more firmly established. Against that background, Government decided, on the recommendation of the Minister for Finance, that Departments should prepare their Estimates for 2005 on the basis of the Department of Finance Estimates of the cost of funding the existing level of services in 2005 and that, in addition, €900 million would be provided to cover the cost of the budget day social welfare and tax changes. In the event, the budget strategy memorandum targets were exceeded by approximately €1 billion in gross terms. The budget day tax package accounted for almost €580 million and gross public expenditure accounted for the remainder of the €1.9 billion. The year-on-year increase for gross voted public expenditure was just over 9%.

In preparation for budget 2006, the Department tabled a paper for the ministerial management advisory committee of 2 February 2005 entitled, "Draft Framework for Developing the Budget Strategy Memorandum 2006-2008". I enclosed a copy with my witness statement. That paper recommended that the target for capital expenditure be about 5% of GNP and that gross voted current expenditure be increased by 6.6% over its 2005 level. In the event, the 2006 budget strategy memorandum was based on an increase of about 7.5% in gross current expenditure and gross voted Exchequer capital of 4.6% of GNP. Post-budget, the gross voted current expenditure increase was 10.9% and gross Exchequer capital was 4.7% of GNP. From a sustainability viewpoint, gross voted current expenditure is particularly important because of the difficulty in reversing welfare, pension and pay increases once granted. The gross 2006 cost of the budget day tax package was €763 million.

During each of the four years ending 31 December 2006, the general government was in surplus and these surpluses ranged between 0.4% of GDP in 2002 and 2.9% of GDP in 2006. During the same period, the general government debt declined each year as a percentage of GDP from 32.2% in 2002 to 24.7% in 2006. The European Commission recommendation on the Irish stability programme update of 22 February 2006 to the Council of Ministers stated, "The fiscal position can be considered [as] sound and the budgetary strategy provides a good example of fiscal policies conducted in compliance with the Stability and Growth Pact."

On taxation of housing and property, the 2005 Budget Statement delivered by the Minister for Finance in December 2004 announced that the Department of Finance and the Office of the Revenue Commissioners would undertake, in 2005, a detailed review of certain tax incentive schemes and tax exemptions in the areas of property and housing.

Arising from the review, the Minister for Finance in his 2006 Budget Statement announced a broad range of changes including the ending of a number of property based tax incentive schemes, subject to certain conditions. The main condition was that the period during which the qualifying expenditure can be incurred was extended to end July 2008. This extension was limited to projects that had already satisfied the terms of the particular scheme. The Minister also introduced with effect from 1 January 2007, a new measure to limit the use of tax breaks by those with high incomes.

Turning to risks, publically acknowledged in 2005, the annual financial stability report was produced jointly by the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator. The two boards came together to approve the document. Despite this level of co-operation, I consider that the single board structure, recommended by a minority of the McDowell group, was the best option and in the aftermath of the crisis, the Government reverted to a single board structure. The 2005 financial stability report published on 1 November 2005 identified the primary risk to be credit growth and indebtedness levels. This risk was placed ahead of the risk in unanticipated and sudden fall in residential property prices because of a moderation in house price growth since the 2004 report. However, the report notes the emergence of tentative evidence that this moderation may not have persisted and goes on to state that if house prices were to accelerate this would increase the risk of a sharp correction to house prices.

The report went on to conclude, “The stability and health of the Irish banking system appears generally sound, according to the standard indicators of financial health such as asset quality, profitability, solvency, liquidity and credit ratings.” This view was broadly shared by the IMF and the OECD. The IMF executive board published an assessment of the Irish financial system in August 2006. That assessment stated, "Directors welcomed the Financial System Stability Assessment Update, which finds that Ireland’s financial sector soundness indicators are generally strong and that the major lenders have adequate buffers to cover a range of shocks." In March 2006 the OECD economic review of Ireland had stated at page 118, "The most likely scenario is that prices stabilise and the housing market stays flat for some years."

Regarding the fiscal situation, the 2006 budget material made clear that as a small open economy, Ireland was particularly vulnerable to changes in the world economic outlook. Among the significant international and domestic downside risks highlighted was the following:

Given the loss of competitiveness in recent years, the economy is vulnerable to any further deterioration. In addition, the fact that the construction sector now accounts for a historically high share of economic activity and employment, implies that the economy is vulnerable to any shock affecting this sector.

In this context, the December, 2005 ESRI Medium-Term Review, 2005-2012, included an economic assessment of a housing shock. The ESRI stressed that the assessment was not a forecast. For illustrative purposes, it calibrated a housing price shock with a fall in house prices of approximately one third in 2007 and with house prices only beginning to recover after 2010. They analysed the potential impact of these major changes on the economy over the period 2007 to 2010. The study concluded that annual housing completions would not fall much below 40,000 and GNP would fall sharply in 2007 but remain above 1%. Unemployment is shown increasing sharply and peaking below 12% in 2009 before beginning to ease back, with the rate of wage increases falling sharply to just above zero. Considering a scenario where the Government allowed the deficit to rise without responding, the paper concluded that the impact on the public finances would be quite large, with a peak Exchequer deficit in the range of 4.5% to 5% of GNP in 2009. However, despite the acknowledged risks, the consensus view remained that the external environment was broadly positive, with international forecasting agencies projecting continued strong growth in the world economy in 2006 and 2007.

In summary, against the background of the financial stress tests and the outcome of the ESRI assessment of the fiscal impact of a severe housing shock, the available safety margins seemed to be more than adequate.

In a budgetary context, this safety margin can be summarised as follows: in 2006, the general government surplus was 2.9% of GDP and the general government debt was the second lowest in the euro area at less than 25% of GDP when the Stability and Growth Pact reference point was 60%. Ireland had a AAA credit rating, was financing a major capital programme from current revenue, and, by end-2006, the National Pensions Reserve Fund had a balance of €18.9 billion. The then consensus view of economic commentators, including the EU Commission, the IMF and OECD, was that the domestic and international economic outlook was broadly favourable. The Government's 2006 budget had included measures designed to help ease pressure in the property market and these pressures were further eased by increasing interest rates and the requirement on banks to hold higher capital against some higher risk loans. Measured by reference to 2006 GDP, the safety margins I have outlined above had a value of up to €95 billion. However, that safety margin and the measures taken in 2006 proved to be inadequate in the face of the crisis that reached seismic proportions in September 2008. In this regard, I note a conclusion of the US Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission report of January 2011:

...the ... inconsistent handling of major financial institutions [by the US Government] during the crisis - the decision to rescue Bear Stearns and then to place Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac into conservatorship, followed by its decision not to save Lehman Brothers and then to save AIG - increased uncertainty and panic in the market.

We now know that Ireland did not have a sufficient safety margin in place to withstand the domestic and international pressures that emerged in September 2008. In the event, our exposure to private sector debt and the direct and indirect impact of the property crash on the Exchequer were more than we could manage without outside assistance. I very much regret that I did not see that as a likely outcome in June 2006 or earlier. Thank you for your attention. I am happy to assist the committee and to answer your questions.

Thank you very much for your opening comments, Mr. Considine. And if I can invite Deputy Joe Higgins to lead off in questions this morning. Deputy, you have 25 minutes.

Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Considine. Mr. Considine, you were on the board of the Central Bank of Ireland from 2002 to 2006. Over that period, from your observations and experience, do you think that board members had the knowledge and expertise necessary to judge on the macro-financial stability matters that arose?

Mr. Tom Considine

I would say that they had. I mean, the ... there was a structure in place. It wasn't, obviously, just the board members. The Central Bank and the Financial Regulator had established a section which examined financial stability issues and brought their conclusions to the board. And the two boards came together to decide on the content of the annual stability report. So, I think when you look at the membership of the boards, I mean, including, say, you know, the Financial Regulator, there were people there with significant financial experience ... insurance, markets, banking, NTMA, and so on. So ... I mean, given my experience of boards down through the years, I wouldn't say that that was an issue. The issue was, really, how to evaluate the information that was coming. And that information included assessments by the IMF and others and, say, in 2005, the last one I was there for ... I mean, the conclusions that were reached on that were based on the belief that a lot of the increases in Irish house prices could be explained by the rapid growth in population. The large numbers of additional people who were on the labour force, in the previous ten years, it was something like 600 and ... if my memory tells me right, 650,000 or something like that. And in addition to that, salaries, wages, and so on had gone up.

And there was also a fairly widespread belief that supply and demand would eventually balance out. And particularly in, I think, the ... from, say, the start of the second quarter of 2005 up until after the summer break, there was a general view around that the property market was coming off the boil.

But there were more overall facts as well, Mr. Considine, particularly with relation to the rapid growth in the banks. Can I quote to you from the then Governor, or at a later time Governor of the Central Bank, Patrick Honohan, in the report that he did into the banking crisis, page 217:

A very simple warning sign used by most regulators to identify a bank exposed to increased risk is rapid balance sheet growth. An annual real growth rate of 20 per cent is often taken as the trigger. ... So this was a very obvious and public danger sign not only for these two banks, but because of the potentially destabilising effect of reckless competition on the entire sector.

Now at previous hearings, Mr. Considine, we don't need to rehearse it again tonight, but we showed the figures, in the time that you were on the Central Bank board, for Anglo Irish Banks, for Allied Irish Bank and for Bank of Ireland, of astonishing rates of lending, astonishing rates, and astonishing increases in profits. And we had evidence from Mr. Bill Black, a famed US former regulator and bank expert, that growth of this type means that the alarm bells should be ringing for regulators, for people like yourselves who are supervising the whole system. Why weren't there alarm bells ringing in your head and in the board at that time?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, Deputy, it depends on what you mean by alarm bells. The financial stability reports do recognise these risks. The problem, with the benefit of hindsight, is that the evaluations that were done didn't suggest that the outcome could be anything like what was ... what was ... what eventually happened. If you read the financial stability report, say of 2005, I mean, the risks are set out. I referred to them in my opening statement. But the judgment that was arrived at really was that these could be explained to a great extent by what was happening in the real economy. It was, as I said, I don't want to repeat it again, but, yes-----

Yes, I heard you saying it first time, Mr. Considine.

Mr. Tom Considine

-----yes, yes.

But, I mean, Mr. Considine, you were a long, long time in around finance issues. You must have been aware, for example, of the Scandinavian banking crisis in the 80s and into the 90s based on speculation, property, and massive over-lending by the banks. Would that not have caused you, and indeed other board members, to fear and to understand indeed, that the same could happen here?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, Chairman ... or, sorry, Deputy, the ... in my opening statement I refer there to an exercise that the ESRI did in December 2005 in their 2005 to 2012 medium-term review, and in that there is a table which shows all these previous crashes. And they modelled at the time a crash of a third in the Irish housing market. The problem is that the results of it, it ... even if it happened, and it wasn't expected, it wasn't a forecast, it was a modelling exercise, even if it happened it didn't seem to threaten the stability of the Irish financial system. And the reason for that was that there seemed to be so many buffers in the system: we had a big surplus; we had low debt; we had a pension reserve fund; and we were funding our capital budget from current revenue. And people like the EU were saying, "This is a model of how you should manage your public finances." So I know with the benefit of hindsight I've no problem, that ... that is not what happened.

Mr. Considine, there were voices from early in the 2000s, loudly raised, warning of the dangers. Did that not make any impact on people like yourself?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, Deputy, I think, you know, I, as you say, I've been around a long time. I never remember a time when there weren't voices threatening, you know, or listing out risks and we listed them out as well. The Minister for Finance in particular, in the run-up to the 2006 budget repeatedly - and in the budget material itself - stressed the risks but, at the end of the day, you have to come to a conclusion. And the conclusion that was arrived at was that the system had sufficient buffers in it to cater for any likely shock. Now that has turned out to be wrong but I heard, at one of your sessions here last week, somebody saying this was a one in 100-year event. But, whether it was or it wasn't, it was certainly a very unusual occurrence and, I suppose, that ... the only thing I can say to you is I didn't see that as ... as the likely outcome.

Thanks, Mr. Considine. Some people would say that notwithstanding the international storm that the ... there was sufficient elements within the Irish situation for a blow-up and a crash in any case but I want to move on-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Sorry, excuse me, I ... I, just to be clear, I'm not disputing that. If we had had, you know, greater buffers in our system, say, just for argument's sake, twice as much as we had, we would have been able to withstand this, so, I'm not saying that we're not responsible for what happened to us. But the trigger for it ... the trigger, what set it off, is all I'm saying, came from outside.

Mr. Considine, was the Department of Finance ever asked to undertake studies on the effects of the strong credit growth of the Irish banks, the effect that that might have on financial stability generally?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, the model ... the model that we had - and, you know, I know it has been criticised in some of these reports - was effectively that the Department of Finance and the Minister were essentially responsible for putting in place a structure to manage the financial system, including to regulate it. And, if you look at, say, the 2003 Act that set up the regulator, you would see in that there are clear structures set in place, functions assigned to the board of the regulator, their strategy statement required to be submitted to the Minister, laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas, performance reports and so on - the same thing. So that was how we operated. We are a small country and we ... one of the difficulties that we had down through the years in finance, was retaining people with financial expertise and, essentially, that's why the NTMA was set up in 1990. We couldn't keep people in the Department because the wages that we were paying were so much below what was paid-----

I ... I have no doubt that other Deputies will get on to that, Mr. Considine, but just ... I know you did ongoing monitoring etc., but that there was no specific request to the Department in relation to a very rapid growth in the banks in your time?

Mr. Tom Considine

No.

Okay, can I move on to a different thing. John Hurley was Governor of the Central Bank in your time, yes? In his opening statement, on page 12, he said, "I was not aware of contrarian views within the Central Bank, which differed in substance from the Bank's overall assessment." And again said, "Views, which set out a different risk assessment, were not made known to me or to the Board in my presence." Now, Mr. Tom O'Connell, who was head of economics and research within the Central Bank from 2005 to 2010, in his evidence, page 3, said:

While the Central Bank in its public utterances presented a low-key assessment of what was happening, that is not to say that it was not fully aware of the major excesses ... Patrick Honohan’s report acknowledged that the three major excesses were well recognised in the [financial stability reports]; [that's] the huge increase in bank lending ... concentration ... [on] property ... and the ... reliance by the banks on potentially volatile wholesale funding ...

Mr. O'Connell then says:

In fact, I should say that one member of the board did have grave doubts, to the effect that I can recollect his words still ringing in my ear, "It was all a house of cards and would all end in tears". However, his views appear not to have had any impact on policy-making in the bank.

And Mr. Honohan said again in page 10 of his report, "More generally, a rather defensive approach was adopted to external critics or contrarians." And finally on the same subject, Mr. Considine, the Nyberg report in its executive summary said:

A minority of people indicated that contrarian views were both difficult to maintain during the long boom and unhealthy to present to boards or superiors. A number of people stated that had they implemented and consistently supported contrarian policies, they may ultimately have lost their jobs, positions or reputations. Other signs were also noted pointing to sanctioning diverging or contrarian opinions as well as self-censorship because of this.

Now, can I ask you starting in the Central Bank first, were you aware of people who had an opposite view to what was generally accepted in relation to the credit growth, the property speculation, etc.?

Mr. Tom Considine

I got ... you sent me ... the committee sent me Tom O'Connell's opening statement ... so I didn't ... you know ... it didn't ring any bells with me. I don't remember any such views being expressed to the board but I think there is an issue around house ... there is an issue around asset pricing. Sometimes, as in the case of our own housing situation, prices can rise for a very long time without anything happening.

Yes. Now we've done that-----

Mr. Tom Considine

No, no ... we haven't. The point I want to make is that if you start off ... your point was about contrarians and what might happen to them, but for argument's sake, if you start in year 3 and you start telling people that there's going to be disaster, by year 8, you will have lost your credibility. That's just a fact of life and there is a-----

Mr. Considine, with respect, was there any serious debate inside the board, for example, where one or two members, for example, were arguing strongly about serious dangers and that that made a mark-up on you and other members? Did that happen?

If I can assist for a second here, Deputy Higgins. Mr. Considine, we can get a secondary opinion and subjective opinion from other witnesses in terms of ... you're in here this morning and we'd like to be talking to you about your contributions, what were your advices, what actions did you recommend and what actions did you personally take. So, if you could respond to Deputy Higgins in that manner, please.

Mr. Tom Considine

I am not aware of anybody having a difficulty with the position that was arrived at, say, in the stability report. In every board that I was on, there'd be debates about things but I don't recall anyone saying, "Look, I'm very uncomfortable with what we are saying here; I don't think that's what's going to happen." I don't recall that happening. No.

Okay, thank you for that. And then, Mr. Considine, within your own Department ... in recent years, newspaper reports emerged that there were a number of people who had a very seriously different approach and were attempting to raise red flags about a property crash, for example, housing crash, etc., in the middle of the 2000s. Were you aware of this?

Mr. Tom Considine

One of the things that we did every year was to meet every assistant secretary and their staff and during the course of those meetings, particularly with the economic side, such issues would be discussed. And I see in the core papers there, there's position notes developed for MAC meetings and they would have been discussed. But the bottom line really is somebody has to arrive at a conclusion at the end and when there's a meeting to discuss an issue, if you don't manage to persuade your colleagues of your position, then it won't be adopted but, you know, there is nothing unusual about that. And there was no issue about trying to stymie these comments or in any way close them down.

But, for example, Mr. Considine, there was an allegation that in relation to answering parliamentary questions, etc., when there were shock warnings of the extent of the credit growth, the property market and the danger of a crash, that the official or officials concerned were instructed to change that. Is that true?

Mr. Tom Considine

It wouldn't surprise me, if it was out of line with what the general view of the Department was. One of the things I used to do as Secretary General was to read all the replies to PQs, every single one of them, to make sure that they weren't representing the views of the Department differently to what the Minister and the Department had decided. And we, no organisation I think would actually send out material which didn't accord with its central beliefs.

Right. Move on again so, Mr. Considine. The Regling and Watson and indeed many other reports and individuals highlighted the over-exposure of banks to commercial property, including land and development sites. Was your Department aware of the risks as they emerged or as that ... the speculation and so forth intensifies and were any steps taken in relation to that?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, there are two levels of that, two levels at that. The first one is I suppose in so far as fiscal policy was concerned and in my opening statement and in my witness statement I outlined the measures that were taken in 2005 and in the ... for the 2006 budget to phase out a whole range of, you know, of supports for the property sector. So that's one thing. The other thing then is in relation to individual banks. Now the regulation of individual banks was at arm's length from the Department of Finance and I mentioned that in my witness statement. One of the results of the new arrangement, if you like, the two-board structure, was the Department of Finance didn't have any representative on the board of the Financial Regulator. So we would have been at arm's length from the actual regulation of individual banks.

Okay. Could I turn then ... a continuation in some senses of ... of this question, to Vol. 1 of your core evidence document. And that's page 155 which is DOF and then 001. It's the ... a letter from the Irish Auctioneers and Valuers Institute to Mr. Charlie McCreevy TD, Minister for Finance. That should come up on the screen.

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, I have it.

You have it there yes?

Mr. Tom Considine

I do, yes.

And then if ... so it's the auctioneers association lobbying the Minister for Finance in June 2003 and we then turn to page 157.

Mr. Tom Considine

Sorry, I must have the wrong ... I must have the wrong ... yes ... no, I-----

It's Vol. 1, Mr. Considine.

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, yes okay. 150-----

Page 157 now, we can ... if ... can that come up on the screen now as well?

157, yes.

Mr. Tom Considine

No, I have it, Deputy, thanks.

Yes, and I just want to refer to four, "The IAVI recommends consolidation of the legislation surrounding compulsory purchase rights, but is strenuously opposed to any amendment to the fundamental principle of compensation being open market value.", and they are talking about land here. Can we go to the next page then please on the screen? Sorry, two pages down, page 159. Just the next one, thank you.

What is that Deputy, now-----

Yes and down at the bottom of that page, "Conclusions". Yes, if you see "Conclusions"?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes.

The IAVI, ''Believes that the market for housing and housing lands is heading towards equilibrium and will, if not have interfered with, find that level of equilibrium in the next 24 to 36 months and is best left alone to achieve that.'' And finally, the next page, please and the last paragraph there, Mr. Considine, ''The IAVI is totally opposed to any system in which individual landowners are deprived of the open market value of their land in the interests of favouring other more disadvantaged members of the community.''

And that's 30 May 2003, that document. Just to ... just to give it a timeline, it's May 2003.

Yes, "It is the view of the IAVI that any subsidy of housing costs should be borne by the tax payers at large rather than penalising individual landowners." Very, very strong lobbying, would you agree or not, on behalf of the property industry? Was this common and what impact did this have on Government policy?

Mr. Tom Considine

It was common, yes. We received about 350 pre-budget submissions and if you actually count them, you know, that's not counting duplicates. If you count duplicates we received about 1,000 or 1,200. We count them now for FOI and that's what the figure was last year I'm told. So some of the bigger representative ... it's a standard thing for representative bodies to make submissions, pre-budget submissions and some of the bigger ones, at least, will look to see the Minister and they will meet the Minister most of the time, I would say. And others might meet the head of the division, the taxation division or whatever. But this ... all this material is fed into the system ... that ... that produces the tax, the finance Bill.

Yes, but would the record show or not, Mr. Considine, that, in fact, this carried huge weight with the Government in the huge, by common consent, very large concessions that were given in tax breaks for developers and so forth?

Mr. Tom Considine

I doubt it in the sense that, well ... the following year, I mean, we embarked on a ... the Minister embarked on a study which ended up phasing out most of these.

Over a long time, was it?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, that's all set out in the budget, if you want me to go into it, I will, but it starts to phase out from the end of 2006 or ... yes, at the end of 2006.

Okay, so, just to conclude then, that last paragraph again, "The Irish Auctioneers and Valuers Institute is totally opposed to any system which individual landowners are deprived of the open market value of the land in the interests of favouring other more disadvantaged members of the community." We know, by common consent, there was massive speculation in building land, which hugely drove up the price of homes, etc., for ordinary people. Who do you think came out best? Who was "favoured most" to use the language there, Mr. Considine, by Government policy - the landowners and those who speculated with land or the more disadvantaged members of the community - during that whole period of the bubble?

Mr. Tom Considine

It's a very political question, Deputy. I mean, basically, at the end of the day, I mean ... these pre-budget ... this is almost an industry, you know, submitting pre-budget submissions and what you expect these people to do is what... a term they use in financial markets is to "talk their book". I mean, you know what else would they say? But, like, this is only part of the policy making, you know, input and people are entitled to say whatever it is that they feel, you know, is ... represents the views of their sector and, you know, whatever decisions are made, at the end of the day, is a matter for the democratic system and whoever gets elected by the people decide whether to, you know, go along with this submission as opposed to this other one, or whatever. So I don't ... I don't feel I can answer that question.

But is it-----

Briefly now.

But is it manifestly clear or not, Mr. Considine, that, for example, the young people buying their first home between ... who saw between '96 and 2006 the price of home increase by the equivalent of the average industrial wage each year, much of that driven by the land price ... Is it clear or not clear who won out in that circumstance by the policy that was actually implemented?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, there was ... I mean, there's no doubt about it what you're saying in relation to house prices, you know, they did increase rapidly, but there were lots of contributors to that, including wage increases, strong wage increases and so on, but, at the end of the day, like, this was a long game and, at the end of it, I'm not sure who won out. Not too many did at the end of it.

Okay, thank you, Mr. Considine. Senator O'Keeffe please. Senator, you have 25 minutes.

Thanks, Chair. Mr. Considine, did you ever, in your ... in the public arena, ever have cause to criticise any colleagues or people working in the Department of Finance or the Central Bank, or any other organisation? Did you ever offer criticism in the public arena?

Mr. Tom Considine

No.

No. Do you accept, or not, that the Irish economy overheated quite dramatically during your tenure as Secretary General of the Department of Finance?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, it ... it ... in the early part of it ... we were coming out of the dotcom bubble, 9/11, all that sort of thing. It certainly picked up in, you know, moving into 2006. But it wasn't anything like as overheated as it had been, say, before the dotcom bubble period.

Various people have given evidence here, including Mary O'Dea and others, that the damage, if you like, to want to put it in the broad term, was done by 2005-2006, that in other words we were always going to be scrambling thereafter. Would you accept that?

Mr. Tom Considine

I saw ... I heard her giving that evidence. I wouldn't, really, no-----

Where do you think the damage was done in that case?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, I think ... I think what she was talking about was in terms of lending and the impact it had on the banking crisis. There's two sides to the balance sheet obviously. One, on the funding side, if you decided in the middle of 2006, you woke up some day ... some morning, and decided that you wanted to take measures to insulate the banks from a possible shock, you could have raised extra capital, you could have lent the maturity of your ... of your wholesale funding and so on. So there was quite a lot that could be done. If you look at the core documents that are here in ... given for this session, one of them shows the amount of mortgages that were issued each year. 2007 was the biggest year ... second biggest year, in that table.

But 2007 didn't occur in isolation. I think you'd agree that there had been-----

Mr. Tom Considine

There is momentum, and this is why-----

And I'm asking about your tenure and what momentum you believe, or not, was built up, and what your ... you and your Department's responsibility might have been during that time. And I'm just trying to gauge how responsible do you believe you might have been, your Department in that time, for what happened.

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, I think the ... there are two responsibilities which we had in particular. One of them was fiscal policy and I've gone into that in quite detail in my witness statement, and touched on-----

-----now, thank you.

Mr. Tom Considine

Okay. Now, in relation to the financial markets, the view in my Department that time and, you know, it is challenged, you know, by some people as to whether that was the right view or not. But we had a model of ... for managing the regulation of banking. And that model was that the Department of Finance provided the structures, the legal structures and so on.

Sorry, just to interrupt you for a second, Mr. Considine. Just set aside the Central Bank for a moment, because I'm going to come back to that. I'm actually talking here about the Department of Finance and, if you like, your ... your relationship with the Minister, and how it arose that during that period of time, you know, tax breaks were introduced, serious tax reductions were made at each budget. People would say that the policies that emerged during that period of time contributed to the economy overheating. And I'm asking you whether you believe you made a contribution to that or not. "You", meaning your Department, not you personally.

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes. I ... I think if you look at, you know, the Vol. 1, TCO, page 53, there is there a chart showing the budget packages, you know, the advice that was given by the Department and-----

How did you rate that advice?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, if you look at it there, the years that I was ... you're asking me about, 2003 is the only year that actually less was ... the budget cost less than we recommended. Every other year it cost more. But I'd like to stress though, that what happened was, and this is a very important point, that that advice was actually signed off by the Minister for Finance. So, what happened was, in the autumn when the horse trading took place between the Department of Finance, the Minister for Finance and other Departments and Ministers, then it wasn't possible to hold the line. The political pressure to spend, to give extra tax relief, and so on, was too strong and-----

Is that how you describe it, Mr. Considine, "horse trading", that's what goes on before a budget?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, it is yes, basically, because every Minister in a line Department, if you're Minister for Social Welfare, if you're Minister for Health, you're trying ... I'm sure you believe that you need extra resources and if you take, say, in 2000 ... in my witness statement there and in my opening statement, we had huge problems in 2003 and 2004 because we cut back €900 million in 2003 and €500 million in 2004 from the cost of paying for the existing level of service the following year. Now, when it came to the 2005 budget, because the economy ... we were able to do it in 2003 and 2004 because the economy had turned down, but when we came to 2005, the political pressure to ease up on this was enormous.

But, Mr. Considine, most members of the public would believe that a Government, a Cabinet would sit down and construct a budget that was appropriate for the country and for its economy and for its sound economy, and that civil servants advising any Government would also have that in mind, and that it not be a moment for horse trading, for people trying to take their piece so I'm-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Just so, Senator. That is exactly what the Government does every ... or did anyway when I was there every year at the middle of the year. And if ... I took some trouble in my witness statement to show how that evolved in 2005 for the 2006 budget. We actually started in February of 2005 looking at how we should frame the 2006 budget and we anchored it on competitiveness, the competitiveness of the economy, and the challenges that we saw down the road. We had ... in 2003, we had a working group, which was well supported by economic talent, that looked at what were the consequences up to 2050 of the emerging trends in public expenditure.

So how did it end up that the Indecon report in 2006 valued the property-based tax breaks that had been granted in the previous years at costing the State €6.8 billion? How did that arise if what you were doing, you and everybody else, was in the pursuit of a sound economy?

Mr. Tom Considine

When you talk about some of these tax breaks, like, they are things like mortgage interest relief, the various personal allowances and so on-----

I'm looking at the total price of it and I am saying €6.8 billion is a considerable sum or perhaps you don't think it is. I'm not sure.

Mr. Tom Considine

Oh, indeed, I do, Deputy, and you're talking to the converted. My view would have been that, wherever possible, Governments should actually spend money as opposed to give tax breaks because-----

So how did it arise that these tax breaks came at the cost they did and at the extent they did if you were of a different mindset?

Mr. Tom Considine

Because, well, I was not elected, Deputy. You know, if I had been, I'm sure I could answer that question.

So it was a political decision.

Mr. Tom Considine

It was, of course, yes, of course it was.

So how then ... just explain to us what happens then if you as a Secretary General are giving advice based on your Department's experience and capacity, and you bring that advice to a Minister and a Cabinet and they say, "Well yes, political ...". Just explain what happens there? Is it another sort of horse trading?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, if you look the first ... again at this chart, there's two halves to this. In the start of the year, the Department does out its work and prepares its advice and, by and large, the Ministers for Finance bought into that. If you take 2006, for example, the paper that we produced in February recommended a 6.6% increase in gross public expenditure. The figure that went to the Government for approval in June or July was 7.5%; it's not a million miles away from it right. But the problem arises then. The Government decides that ... they sit down the way you are sitting around the table and they decide that, but when the rubber hits the road and you come back in the autumn and health says, "Well, you know, we can't live with that. We need to do X, Y and Z." One example might be, in 2003, the Government decided it had to do something about controlling public sector numbers. It took a decision that it was going to stabilise them, I think, and cut them by 5,000 over the following three years. Now the Civil Service actually delivered on that because we were in a position to actually exert enough influence but political pressure caused numbers in health, education and elsewhere to keep on going.

What words would you use to describe the level of tax breaks and the level of spend that occurred in that period of time? Looking at it, what words would you use, now that you are at this inquiry? You may not have been able to do it before, but perhaps you can have the opportunity now.

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, I was able to do it, Deputy. There was no one ever-----

Well, perhaps you can do it in public now I mean, not in private.

Mr. Tom Considine

Senator, nobody ever-----

No, I wasn't suggesting that. I meant this is a public arena and you have the opportunity now.

Mr. Tom Considine

No, I mean, the reality of it is that every year, you know ... first of all, in relation to taxation, which is what you're trying-----

Sorry, Mr. Considine, I'm just asking if you might just tell me what you think of what happened. Just what words would you use to describe the level of spend and the amount of tax breaks that occurred in that period of time?

Mr. Tom Considine

I don't know what ... how you think I should describe it. But it is the result-----

Good, bad or indifferent?

Mr. Tom Considine

It's the result of the democratic process. Basically, budgets are about ... you can see it in the public domain now ... you have a fiscal council. The fiscal council give advice, the Government decide is it going to take it or isn't it going to take it and if you want to evaluate whether the advice given in this chart here over that period was any more or less successful, well, you have it in the public domain.

Yes, I suppose because you were a person with considerable experience of the Department of Finance, I'm interested in your own view of what happened at that time as you are now in front of this inquiry. Your view, not the evidence, your opinion and your view.

Mr. Tom Considine

Absolutely. No, we weren't successful in ... we weren't successful in either ... most of the time, apart from 2003 and 2004, you know, we weren't successful most of the time in making our advice stick. Now, people have said if we had presented it differently or whatever and look, I'm not going to argue with that. You can always present things differently. But to be quite honest, and I'm sure you want the facts here, it's a political system. We are operating in a political system. I have worked in commercial operations; they're totally different. You know, this is a political system and, you know, advisers are there to advise, politicians are there to make decisions and that's where it ends up. Now you can always criticise us for saying if we had provided the advice, if we had shouted louder or something, but you know, you can't ignore the fact that that's how it works.

You were on the McDowell group that reached the decision about the new Financial Regulator. The decision was that there would be ... that the Financial Regulator would be separate from the bank. That was what they were asked to look at that and that's what they came back with. And I'm asking, do you think ... that's not what happened in the end, of course. Do you think that the governance structure that was put in place for the Central Bank and Financial Regulator was effective and appropriate, the one that emerged?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, Senator, I was on the McDowell group but I didn't subscribe to the conclusion. I put in a minority report which was supported by the Central Bank.

Why did you not agree with the conclusion of the report?

Mr. Tom Considine

Because I thought it was ... I thought it was a dangerous way to go about regulation in the Irish context.

Mr. Tom Considine

My experience of regulation down through the years, and I have been working in it for an awful long time, is that the more fault lines you open up - and, by fault lines, I mean where different institutions have to come together, they have to rely on each other and so on - the greater the risk that you're going to end up with things falling between the cracks and one saying, "No, that's not my issue, it's your issue", and so on. And one of the key things when a crisis comes around really is that you need to have all the people moving quickly, very quickly. And also I had experience. Prior to that, there was an awful lot of trouble because the Central Bank, because of ... you're familiar here with 33AK. Well, there was a version of that before 33AK came in and it made it very difficult for the Central Bank to pass information about, say, a wrongdoing that came into its possession, say, to the consumer director at the time, who was ... it was separate, right. So what I wanted to do really was to keep them under control of the same board so that we could get rid of these issues and you couldn't have people coming up and saying, "Well, I knew about that but because of the law, I could not do anything about it." And that's why I was-----

Would you say or not that the resulting body that was set up then in 2003 was a creature of the Department of Finance?

Mr. Tom Considine

It certainly wasn't. My ... my creature is there ... you're talking about did I ... what I did in public. It's there on page 79 of the McDowell group and what was ... what was set up there was not ... was certainly not that anyway.

On page 61 of Vol. 1 of your book of evidence, Mr. Considine-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Vol. 1.

Vol. 1, page 61.

Mr. Tom Considine

Is that the one, TOC?

It'll come up ... Vol. 1 of your own book.

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, okay.

Tom Considine, TCO.

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes.

It talks about the Department facing a specific skills challenge, and I'm sure you'll recall this, with a broad spectrum of skills requirements between others in banking and finance and it says, "At present, the main-----

I think it's actually on your screen there, Mr. Considine. It'll save you going looking for it.

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, okay.

-----skills in short supply are economic modelling along with banking, accounting and legal skills." Now, we see from the Wright report that emerged much later on that there was still shortages of skills at the Department of Finance and various people raised it in their own evidence to the Wright report. So, I'm wondering what did you do in your tenure to try to address that skills shortage and, indeed, what difficulties may you have faced in trying to address them?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, first of all, what did I do: we modernised the legislation for recruiting public servants - that's one thing that we did - and I used that legislation to recruit eight administrative officers, you know, graduates, in the first quarter of 2006. Three of those had master's degrees in economics and the rest of them had various kind of qualifications that we had specified. And, in March 2006, the management advisory committee agreed to recruit another ten. I assume ... I don't know what happened to that, but that's what the decision was anyway when ... you know, in March 2006. In addition to that, we felt that there was a need to strengthen analysis, not just in the Department but throughout the public service, and we launched a programme allowing suitably qualified assistant principal officers to do a two-years master's in policy analysis and generally we stepped up our support for policy analysis all over the place; you know, five-day programmes, diplomas, that kind of thing. And I-----

But it obviously wasn't enough.

Mr. Tom Considine

Pardon? No-----

It obviously wasn't enough.

Mr. Tom Considine

Well I ... look, I don't ... I mean, in my view, it's the constant challenge to keep up. It has never been different. As I started to say to Deputy Higgins, back in 1990 that was the reason the NTMA was set up, because you couldn't keep people from the financial sector in the Department of Finance and, by ring-fencing it, you know, you could pay the going rate, or whatever. So that ... you know, it was a challenge but it was a challenge though that, you know, it was worth dealing with and I felt, you know, that if we kept doing what we were doing, which was bringing in and targeting, you know, the particular skills that we needed, that that would build up. But one of the things that happened, you see, was because we were part of a wider Civil Service promotion system, all these bright people ended up departing pretty quickly, so that was ... you know, that's a problem.

In the time that you were in the civil servants and attached to the Department of Finance, and as you came close to the end of your period of time, would you have said that the centre of power, for want of a better expression, shifted at all from the Department of Finance to the Department of the Taoiseach or was it more equal, or was there any change. Because, arguably, people would've said the Department of Finance was more powerful at the end of the 20th century than it was in the beginning ... or in the middle of the 21st century, in the decade that we had, or would you have any comment to make?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, I think, as a general rule, it's much easier for the Department of Finance to operate in fiscal policy - and by that I mean expenditure and taxation - when money is in short supply. If ... to put it crudely, if you don't have it, it's a good excuse. When there's a perception ... and, you know, the two things I think that made a big difference were the programmes for Government and how they became increasingly more ... more detailed. Like, for example, I think the 2002 programme had ... had a provision in it that old age pensions would be increased to at least €200 a week - at least. Now, not that I have any judgment to make about what old age pensions should be but, in the political world, if you see a statement like that, what it tends to signal to people is "Well, we have at least 200, so what ... what more can ... can be delivered?" So, the way programmes for Government and the agreements with the unions worked, once they were there they had their own structure for monitoring were they being implemented. So, the ... I mean, it wouldn't have been just, say, civil servants but I think some backbench Deputies might have felt as well that this was a major driving force and Wright, I think, mentions that in his report fairly clearly. So, in that sense, like, you were centralising power not so much in the Taoiseach's Department or, you know, anywhere. They did have a role because of their role in the social partnership agreement but it was more to do with, you know, how programmes for Government and the agreements with the unions actually drove things.

As financial markets became more global, particularly, say, up to the time you were finishing at the Department of Finance, what impact did the International Financial Services Centre have, if any, do you think, on the way in which the Department of Finance operated and, I suppose more importantly perhaps, in the way the Financial Regulator and the Central Bank operated? Did the presence of it in Ireland change the attitude to finance, to regulation, to competitiveness?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, I suppose, you know, as the Department of Finance, I mean, I would always have seen it as my job, you know, to make sure that Ireland was competitive in every sector and the financial sector wouldn't be any different from that. In my mind, like, there was no issue there between that and regulation, you know, sound ... in fact, I would have the view that if you engaged in sort of dangerous regulatory practices that you would probably suffer in terms of, you know, your business, as opposed to anything else. But, listening to some of the people that gave evidence to this committee, I could see that, down the line, that message may ... you know, it may have come across differently. There's always that risk that, you know, you ... you give out a message and the people who are giving it out maybe understand it, hopefully, but when it gets translated down several steps ... I heard what they said and I have no reason to believe that it's not right.

Just to go back, if I may, to finish, when we talked about the various sorts of tax breaks and they broke down into, you know, very specific ones for car parks and nursing homes and holiday homes and guest houses and seaside resorts and so on, did you think yourself, when you saw the range and the depth of those tax breaks, did you have an image in your head of what might happen, literally, around the country? Did you see that those would suddenly develop, that all sorts of buildings would arise, in all parts, particularly in rural Ireland? Did you ... did you actually translate that into what would happen or did you see it simply as a piece of financial, you know, construct that you needed to deal with or to advise on?

Mr. Tom Considine

I hope not. I did see, you know ... and the problem with tax reliefs really again, in a political system, is ... and particularly when you have area-based tax reliefs, originally they tend to get introduced for some specific reason which kind of makes sense but very quickly then demands start to come in, like, "Well, we should have some as well", and so on, so they can get out of hand. And, I suppose, when you look at those tax reliefs, I mean, they should have been phased out earlier. But I have to say that the reason for that was there was a great nervousness about doing this. Back in 2000, you know, the Bacon reports and so on, when they moved to make purchasing property less attractive to the buy-to-let people, and they saw the consequences of it in terms of higher rents and all that, it made everyone in the whole system - in fact, I reviewed those papers - it made them very nervous about touching the property market and it wasn't until, you know, 2004 that ... you know, that we actually set about ... and there was a good job done on it then but, I think, obviously with the benefit of hindsight, it should have happened a lot earlier.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much. I just want to deal with one or two matters then I'll bring in Deputy O'Donnell and we'll take a break at that time then, Mr. Considine. Mr. Considine, if ... just locate something for a moment and just familiarise myself. From the period of 2002 to 2006, you were both the Secretary General of the Department of Finance and you were also an ex officio member of the Central Bank. Yes?

Mr. Tom Considine

That's correct.

So those two roles are held concurrently, those two senior positions. Okay. Sorry, so after 2004, the IMF, the OECD and the ECOFIN all clearly recommended a tighter fiscal stance and a building up of a cushion for the time when income from property-related transactions would fall. That was a consistent message coming from those very, very senior observers. And, in fact, in the Regling and Watson report looking back upon that period, it talks about one of the difficulties ... it's on ... I won't take you through the reference documents, as such. What's relevant to you, Mr. Considine, I'll bring up on the screen. But, in page 43 of Regling and Watson, it talks about the "light-touch approach to supervision has been discredited: it sent wrong signals to banks and left supervisors poorly informed about banks' management and governance, potentially impairing crisis [driven] response capacity also", which is the type of cushion type of things we would be looking at.

So I just want to go on now Mr. ... and I'll bring up on the screen, it's related to pre-budget letters from the Central bank in around the period 2004. And this is a narrative document and I just want to take you through two sections of the pages in front of you. The first one is the pre-budget letters to budget 2004 and if you look at the italics section there it says:

Fiscal policy could also play a role in smoothing the adjustment of demand for property by limiting its more speculative components. In this regard, it would seem more appropriate, for example, to allow no further extensions to the termination date of mid-2006 for a range of tax driven incentive schemes for housing.

So there's an early flag up in 2004 there, that something should be done with regards to the tax incentivisation for the property market. Down at the end of the page then, it says in the second last bullet, "After the budget was announced, the board discussed the budget outcome and it was noted that the advice from the Governor was not fully adhered to." I might come back to that in a moment. So, this is a board that your sitting on. Would you have been privy to these documents in your role as the Secretary General the Department of Finance and in your role on the board? Would you have been familiar with these devices and these documents at that time?

Mr. Tom Considine

Oh, I would, yes.

Okay. So we'll go on a small bit more then. And its ... the next document is a pre letter in 2006 and there's a box here. If you look at the section ... the mid-section in the box it says, "Another indicator that house prices are becoming overvalued is that, based upon a debt service threshold of 40% of disposable income, an increase in proportion and potential buyers are being priced out of the market." So this is 2006, house prices are still going up. 2004, there's discussions with regard to tax relief being a difficulty. In 2004, there is commentary with regard to the Governor's advice not being adhered to and so on.

Then I'll just ... to finally to go on to the Honohan report, and that'll come up on your screen there, where he makes a general commentary on the annual pre-budget letters ... these are the sort of documents that I just discussing a moment ago. And if you look at 7.8 and take it from the second sentence in, it says. "These letters regularly highlighted the issue of house price inflation and the size of the construction sector, particularly in the letters of 30 September 2004." This is well before 2006. It's a year into your tenure as the ... as the general secretary of the Department of Finance. "The level of house prices, along with continuing high rates of increase in prices, posed macroeconomic as well as financial stability risks" - stability being a responsibility of the Central Bank, regulatory being an issue of the regulator, but you're on the board of the Central Bank and stability is an issue concerning your responsibility. "There remains a risk, however, that in the current state of housing output is on some estimates very much higher, not far off twice." And this goes back to your earlier statement this morning about housing supply and demand, there's a very, very strong indication here that demand is less than 50% of actually supply ... that there's an oversupply of a very, very high capacity. So, not far off twice the underlying demand for property.

Then the very, very final statement I'll take it ... its the last line on that page and continues into the next page, "In this regard, it would seem appropriate, for example, to allow no further extensions to the termination date of mid-2006 for the range of tax driven incentive schemes for housing." So what we have in the earlier testimony there is back as far as 2003, there is discussion with regard to doing something about the tax incentivisation in the property sector. And here we are out in 2006 and it's still being discussed. Could you explain to us this morning, Mr. Considine, why was the Central Bank's recommendations to the Minister not more forcibly alert to the issue, given that you would have been, maybe, conceived as being the middle man between the Department of Finance and the Central Bank?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, first of all, I suppose I was a non-executive director of the Central Bank and I don't think there's any issue about the Central Bank's advice not being presented. The Governor would have written the letter and he would have come and spoken to the Minister himself. So the advice was there and it was clear. Now one of the ... the 2007 budget, I wasn't there for the second half-----

I'm not really interested in 2007-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes.

-----I'm interested in your period this morning-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes.

-----Mr. Considine.

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, but one of the items that you mentioned there I wasn't there when that happened.

But we'll go back-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes.

But you see, the ... here on the evidence that we have in front of us, this is ... I'm talking specifically about your term. In 2003, there are significant concerns about where the economy is going. There's significant concerns about the inflation that's in property and there's concerns with regard to the taxation measures and how it is affecting the property market. And as Deputy Higgins was referring to earlier, there is an adverse effect to that. While there might be greater profits being made upon the purchasing of homes, the cost of them are increasing significantly and having an adverse effect upon purchasers. So, what I'm kind of trying to drill down to is can you explain why no action was taken by the Central Bank board up until 2006 to start cooling house price measures? Why wasn't that happening?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, I don't think that's correct, Chairman, because going back to the budget of 2003, was the tightest budget of the whole ten years. So ... now in relation-----

Yes, sure.

Mr. Tom Considine

-----in relation to the specific property things, I've already said in reply to Senator O'Keeffe that I thought they should have been abolished earlier but in 2004 the Minister did commence the process of doing this. He assigned the task to the Department and the Revenue Commissioners and we hired in two outside consultants who made recommendations in relation to a whole range of these - about 13 of them in all, I think.

Am I being correct, or maybe it's just from earlier testimony, sometimes so much of it comes by us I maybe forget the chronology and the sequence of it, but, by 2003, weren't the measures in the Bacon report being pulled back?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, they were pulled back earlier, but you see the thing about it is that-----

And ... but, as a result of that, wasn't the ... all the figures showing that house property was escalating at an increasing rapid rate, that the graph, which was kind of somewhat flat after the Bacon report, started climbing like a ladder?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, I don't think that's a fair representation of what happened-----

Well, the graphs in the evidence that we would have before this inquiry, Mr. Considine, would show that house price inflation in this country significantly grew after the Bacon measures were actually removed in the budget.

Mr. Tom Considine

I know, but I think you need to break it down a bit more than that. Following the ... Bacon did three reports, and the net effect, I think of ... you know, I'm just talking now from my memory what, what ... the main things that were done was people who bought buy-to-let properties were not allowed to offset the interest against their income and stamp duty was put up for buy-to-lets to 9% at max, I think. Now, the effect of that actually was to create a scarcity of rental properties and rent started rising. At the same time, you had the bursting of the dotcom bubble. And for about three months, house prices actually fell and I'm referencing that to the Permanent TSB house price index, right? They fell both for new houses and for second-hand houses. So, the lesson that people learned from that and I think they over-learned it, including myself, was that ... it was you needed to be extremely careful when you were interfering in the property market; you need to be clear. So-----

Would the proposition not be put to you, Mr. Considine, that when the taxation was, kind of, put into that area that, paradoxically or ironically, that actually made a bad situation potentially worse because the economy was moving to more and more consumption taxes at that time and away from income tax and one of the biggest consumption taxes, or the biggest consumption tax that was being arrived at, was through people actually purchasing homes and paying stamp duty?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, but-----

And was that not creating a structural difficulty in the overall macro management of the budget?

Mr. Tom Considine

It does, to some extent, but you need to break them out. I mean, when you arrive at the situation where we were in ... you know, just take stamp duty - if you cut stamp duty, what you do, actually, is boost the property market further. So, you know, the point, really, has more to do with all these individual property things like rural area schemes, urban schemes, car parks, all of that.

So we'll equalise that comment - if you cut stamp duty-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes.

-----you increase house prices.

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes.

But you had a whole load of tax incentivisations that were taking place at the vendor end. The stamp duty was at the purchaser end. So why was there not more tax at the vendor end of things?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, basically, Deputy, I don't think we're ... I think we're just ... I'm agreeing with you, like. I mean, I think-----

Well, why didn't it happen, if you're agreeing with me, so?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, because, as I said, people were very nervous about actually what might happen, that they might bring down the whole market, but nonetheless-----

Who was nervous particularly?

Mr. Tom Considine

I think if you review the tax strategy papers-----

Was it the Department, the Minister?

Mr. Tom Considine

I'd say the Department and the Minister.

Of the day, was very nervous.

Mr. Tom Considine

The experience that they had when they moved on Bacon was that they felt that they nearly toppled over the edifice at the time. And I think that had a sobering influence. But when it came to 2004, that explains, to some extent, the great care that was taken in actually phasing these out, and the fact that they brought in Indecon and Goodbodys to actually evaluate each of them.

Just one final question. I'll bring in Deputy O'Donnell then, Mr. Considine. If the tax incentivisations that were being discussed in 2003 in letters coming in from the Central Bank to the Department of Finance and obviously to feed on to the Minister of Finance for that year's budget, starting in 2003, our evidence will show that there was serious concerns with regard to tax incentivisations and that those difficulties and concerns were still there by 2006. If action had been taken earlier to deal with the tax incentivisations and to bring an end to them, would it have cooled the property market and would it have lessened the level of exposure of risk to this country?

Mr. Tom Considine

I think, as a general statement, the answer to that is, "Yes". But I think the property market is a lot more nuanced than people give it credit for. If, for example, you have a scheme in place, just for argument's sake, which gives, say, 50% allowance for spending done in a particular period, if you actually come along and say, "We're going to end this now," one of the effects that happens is there's a rush to hire labour and get the job done within the period that will allow them to claim. So you have to be careful. And that's why when it came to 2000, to the Indecon and Goodbody thing, that you had the phasing out. There was a great fear that you do more harm than good if you just said, "It's all going to end now."

Thank you, Mr. Considine. Deputy O'Donnell. Deputy, ten minutes.

Thanks, Chairman. Mr. Considine-----

I find it works if you turn it off.

I'm trying my best, Chairman.

Deputy O'Donnell.

Yes. Thank you. Mr. Considine, during your tenure as Secretary General, what was the role of the Department of Finance in overseeing the Financial Regulator and was that ... was this role restricted to legislative issues related to the implementation of the new regulatory system or did it expand beyond this? I suppose, in simple terms, what was the role and, for instance, what was your role with the IFSC?

Mr. Tom Considine

The IFSC was part of ... we would have seen it ... two dimensions to it. It was part of the economy and, as such, we would have been anxious to develop it, make it a significant contributor to employment and growth. That's ... now, side by side with that, we would have certainly seen that an essential element of that was sound regulation, because if we got a bad name of, you know, running the thing loosely, it couldn't but do us harm. So that's the way we looked at it.

Now, when it comes to legislation and the Financial Regulator, the legislation is actually very specific. If you take, you know, the specific ... I saw Mr. Patterson giving evidence there, and the actual format of the strategy was set out in legislation. So it wasn't just, you know, that the legislation didn't just say, "You should produce a strategy statement." The legislation said, "You should produce a strategy statement with A, B, C, D and E in it." And our job was to make sure that that was done.

The next thing that happened was that that strategy statement had to be submitted to the Minister and then placed before both Houses of the Oireachtas, and it was open to scrutiny. I don't know to what extent that happened, but I know they were up before some committees. Then following that then there was a requirement for an annual report. And the same thing happened there. They were required to report on what was in the strategy statement and that, again, went to the Minister.

Who was preparing that strategy statement?

Mr. Tom Considine

The regulatory authority. And it's absolutely clear. It says, "The regulatory authority shall at least prepare a strategy statement."

What role did you have in terms of the overseeing of financial regulation apart from ensuring that these statements were completed? Did you have a role in terms of an analysis of these statements? Did you have a role in terms of overseeing how the IFSC was functioning?

Mr. Tom Considine

No. Our role was basically to make sure that the structures were in place and that they operated as they were supposed to in the sense that we provided the regulatory authority with whatever support it needed in terms of resources and so on, again as part of the legislation that set it out. And I think there is more or less universal agreement that there was no ... certainly during my time, I never remember anybody being refused extra staff. There was a problem all right in recruiting staff, and that goes back to what I was talking to Senator O'Keeffe about.

And when you say there was never an issue in terms of extra staff being refused, who would that request have come from to the Department? Would it come from the CEO of the Financial Regulator or the board?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, actually it was done within the regulator. Our function was mainly around who was going to pay for it, right. And initially, as I recall it, 50% was levied on the industry and 50% came from the internal resources of the Central Bank. Originally, I think the McDowell group recommended that the industry should pay the whole lot. And, obviously, you can make a case for that.

So any questions that have come up ... and we've had various witnesses in before us ... there was an issue in terms of extra staff being forthcoming in the Financial Regulator, that it was purely an internal issue for the Financial Regulator. If a request ever came to the Department, you approved that request?

Mr. Tom Considine

It didn't come to us, you see. It didn't need to come to us. They had the capacity to do it themselves.

Can I just go back on a quick note. You were Secretary General of the Department of Finance for four budgets, the '03 budget, which was in December '02; the '04 budget, December '03; the '05 budget, December '04; and then the '06 budget in December '05. Am I correct in that?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes.

Okay. Over that period, how many Ministers did you deal with?

Mr. Tom Considine

Two.

And which ... can you tell me which Ministers would have been dealing with which budget?

Mr. Tom Considine

It's ... the first two-----

Mr. Tom Considine

-----yes, were Mr. McCreevy. And the actual submission to the Government for the 2005 budget from the Department and the Minister was also Mr. McCreevy. Mr. Cowen didn't become Minister until - I don't know - late September-early October.

He became Minister on 29 September, correct. And then in '06? That's Mr. Cowen.

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, that was ... that was for the '06 budget, yes.

And there appears to have been a marked shift, '03 and '04, there was ... there were ... there were reductions in the spending in both budgets of €900 million for December budget '03 and €500 million for budget 2004.

And we find in '05, suddenly almost overnight that you had an increase in expenditure of €1 billion in '05, and '06 you had an increase overall from the previous year of around ... nearly 11% by the end, when it eventually arose. How did that arise, because the fundamentals appear to be in relatively the same over those four years? Was it a ministerial decision?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, the fundamentals weren't the same.

The growth, the GDP was going up, I mean it was increasing in '03 and '04, '05 and '06.

Mr. Tom Considine

But the background though was you were coming out of the recession or the downturn that was caused by the dotcom bubble, 9/11 in the US and foot and mouth disease here.

So did your Department in the '05 budget argue for that €1 billion of an increase in spending?

Mr. Tom Considine

The, the submission that was made to the ... if you look there on page 53 of the TCO - Vol. 1, you will see the graphs there. I mean essentially in 2003, it's the only year where actually expenditure was less than what was recommended. And when I say expenditure, it's the cost of the budget, it's both tax and-----

Do you agree that in the budget 2004, there was a reduction in expenditure of coming up nearly half, of half a billion?

Mr. Tom Considine

There was, but you see, the thing about it is that ... what, what we were faced with then was increasing pressure on the political system because we were holding back, you know.

How do you define increasing pressure on the political system? How do you define that?

Mr. Tom Considine

The difference between what was recommended in the budget, you know in the budget strategy-----

Why suddenly did you have pressure on the political system in '05 and '06 and you didn't appear to have it in '03 and '04?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well you did have it, and in '03, for example, we had to bring in a group of three independent, sort of, honest brokers to try and get agreement.

But why didn't you bring those in in '05 and '06?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well these things don't tend to work, you know, they don't, you know, you play a hand of cards and that wasn't considered to be of help.

Why not? But you see, for the ordinary person looking in you had the credit growth rate in those years between '04, '04 and '05, the ... dare I say it, the credit growth was ablaze like a burning fire. So, what I'm trying to understand, and for the ordinary person out there is, how do we suddenly come to a situation were you had budgets in '03 and '04 that were conservative budgets-----

Question there Deputy-----

-----and then '05 and '06, you need to explain the process. And did you have reservations about your budgets in '05 and '06?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, first of all I think in '05, I mentioned in my witness statement that by the 2004 budget there was serious concern throughout the spending Departments that what we were doing was really depressing spending. There's a figure which I took from ... a memorandum for Government that the view was that the base was €2.1 billion too low, right? So, when we came in to preparing the 2005 budget then, the economy had picked up and the case, it became increasingly difficult to actually keep the same pressure on. So the decision, and I know you're trying to figure out, this wasn't anything to do with changes of Ministers, this had happened-----

I didn't ask that question-----

Mr. Tom Considine

No, but you did ask me-----

You have only one supplementary, Deputy, so don't use it yet.

Mr. Tom Considine

So, it's, it's ... that's the background to it. I've set it out in my witness statement I can go through it again if you wish.

Ask the supplementary and we will have the break then.

And final supplementary, in the property schemes that were in place, they were supposed to finish at the end of 2004. You were general secretary over that period, they were extended for another four years, right, up to 31 July 2008.

Mr. Tom Considine

In ... oh sorry, yes, yes.

31 July 2008. So, the question I'm asking you is, did you, as general secretary of the Department, stand over those pushing out of the deadline dates on an annual basis? Did you stand over that?

Mr. Tom Considine

But that's not what happened, Deputy. I mean I, I have explained, I think fairly clearly, that at the end of 2004 the Minister decided that all these would be evaluated, all these schemes would be evaluated. And they were evaluated by the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners, with the help of Indecon and Goodbody Consultants, and the decision to extend them subject to phasing, they weren't, they were being phased out gradually from the end of 2006. That decision was based on that advice and that work that was done and it's published and it's available in the budget booklets in great detail.

Okay, just explain this one thing just to finish off Deputy O'Donnell's questioning and we'll go for a break then. Yes, they were commissioned in 2004, why did it take so long for them to actually come home with the recommendations, as publication didn't actually take place until 2006 and then it wasn't acted upon until 200-----

Chairman, can I just-----

No, let me just get this answer-----

No, no but Chairman, this-----

I'll bring you back in Deputy, please. Can you just explain that? It was the, they were commissioned in late 2004, published in 2006 and not acted upon until 2008. That's a four-year turnaround.

Mr. Tom Considine

No, that's not correct, they were acted on from the end of 2006. The, the percentage that you could claim was reduced, I, I think-----

But not abolished.

Mr. Tom Considine

Pardon?

But not abolished.

Mr. Tom Considine

They weren't abolished entirely until-----

Okay, Deputy O'Donnell, quickly.

Okay, in the budget 2004, well before this report was ever commissioned, the incentives were extended for another two years to 31 July '06. So it, they were extended for a further two years before this report. So why didn't you look for report to be commissioned in 2003 before the schemes were finished in 2004, would be, would strike anyone looking in as maybe, would you not think as being, the, maybe the more clinical process to put in place?

Mr. Tom Considine

I think, as I said to you, I have reviewed the tax strategy papers and so on and I think the explanation for that really was that there was a general nervousness, which extended back to the experience after the Bacon report in actually interfering in the housing market and I'd say that's what delayed it. That's to the best of my knowledge.

I propose that we break until 11.30 a.m., if that's agreed, we'll do it. In doing so, I'll just remind the witness that once he begins giving evidence he should not confer with any person other than his legal team in relation to his evidence or matters that are being discussed before the committee. With that in mind, I now suspend the meeting until 11.30 a.m., and remind the witness that he is still under oath until we resume. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 11.17 a.m. and resumed at 11.39 a.m.

Right. I now propose that we go back into public session. Is that agreed? Agreed. Okay, and I'll invite Deputy Murphy to continue the questioning. Deputy Murphy?

Thank you, Chairman, and thank you to the witness, you're very welcome. I want to return to an area of questioning that Deputy O'Donnell raised earlier, if I may. And it's in relation to the introduction of the new regulatory structure in 2003. When that new structure was put in place do you believe that there were effective instruments available to it to deal with excessive credit growth and sector risk concentration?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, I do believe that but, I suppose, the approach to regulation would have made it very difficult for them to use those but they were there. For example, you could attach conditions to a licence, there were a number of things you could do.

They had sufficient powers to regulate the banks.

Mr. Tom Considine

I think so, yes.

Okay. When things like sectoral limits were breached by individual banks, would the Department be made aware of this by the regulator?

Mr. Tom Considine

No. For, I think that the whole business about sectoral limits is a very complex issue. First of all they were only guidelines from the regulator, that's the first thing. The second thing was the introduction of Basel II effectively took a different approach to this by requiring capital as a solution to these sort of things but, you know, the Department was well at arm's length away from, you know, individual-----

You as a member of the board of the Central Bank, would you have been made aware when breaches were reported to the regulator?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, because there was a decision taken not to have the Department of Finance represented on the board of the regulator.

But, when the regulator then, when things were reported to the actual Central Bank, the CBFSAI board, which had an oversight role, would those things then be reported in to that board?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, it didn't have an oversight role, it's important, it had a role in relation to stability and the two organisations came together to input into the annual financial stability report, and the two boards came together to approve that financial stability report.

Okay, but then in, from your recollection, from your time on the board, you do not remember breaches of sectoral concentration limits being discussed then, in that process?

Mr. Tom Considine

No.

Okay. Did the Department review the establishment of the new structure at all in the years following its establishment, when you were Secretary General of the Department of Finance?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, actually, it was very early days, like the first strategy statement that it was required to produce under the Act covered the period up untll the end of 2004, and there was only one annual report actually, I think, published during my time. So it would have been, you know, it would have been pretty early days to do that.

You mention this, but also Patrick Neary mentioned it as well, when he was before us, about the limits being more of a guideline. Why were they only a guideline?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, I don't know. I mean, you know, I shouldn't talk about things that I wasn't involved in. I, I didn't-----

But would it not fall to the Department of Finance, in terms of the legislation to establish the regulator, whether or not things like sectoral limits would be guidelines or be strict rules to be enforced?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, no, I mean, that would be very much, I think, the day-to-day operation of regulation. The Department of Finance was more concerned with structures and so on like that and if you read, say, virtually all the documentation, including McDowell, I mean, there was more or less universal agreement that the regulator should have autonomy on its day-to-day regulation.

But when Mr. Neary tells us, as he did, and it's on page 31 of the transcript from his session here, that there was no legal or supervisory remedy in relation to breaches of the limit, the question is should there have been and, if so, did the responsibility not fall to the Department?

Mr. Tom Considine

It would if the regulator had come to us and said, you know, there's a deficiency in the legislation.

But the regulator never came to you and said there's a deficiency.

Mr. Tom Considine

Not that I can recall, anyway.

Were deficiencies ever discussed during your time on the board on the Central Bank?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, the ... in so far as I can recall, and I've been two days reviewing the minutes of the boards of IFSRA and the Central Bank, and when you review the minutes and I have to be careful about this, but generally, the general impression you get, was that regulation was being conducted as you would expect, and I had some experience of regulation, so I would have been looking, you know, looking at it fairly critically, and it appeared to me to be normal.

Okay. But, just to clarify that, the regulator never came to you, looking for-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Not that I can recall.

Okay. When the chairman of the regulator, Mr. Patterson, was before us, on page 111 of his transcript, excuse me, he said that the sector concentration limits were relaxed in the 1990s to attract one particular large foreign bank, and as a result the limits were then relaxed for everyone.

Mr. Tom Considine

I heard him saying that, yes.

Would you care to comment on it?

Mr. Tom Considine

I don't know, it's news to me, I didn't know about that.

You don't recall the concentrations being weakened in the 1990s for one particular bank?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, I don't.

You don't recall any discussion of that, then, later on, on in relation to sector concentration limits.

Mr. Tom Considine

No.

Okay. I'll move on from that, then, if I may, to the Wright report. You have read the Wright report, I take it? Do you accept its findings?

Mr. Tom Considine

That's a very broad statement. I suppose the first thing about the Wright report is that he found that the Department was fit for purpose, that its advice had been generally stronger and clearer than was available anywhere else. He makes points about the strengthening of the skills, I've dealt with that already. I agree that it was a constant issue to build up the skills and so on. So, some of the things that he says I wouldn't agree with, but you know-----

I'll put those things to you, and ask if you agree with them then. On page 23 of the Wright report, "the public and policy makers were insufficiently sensitive to the effects of extraordinarily expansive monetary conditions at the time, and to the fact that fiscal policy was the key potential counterbalance to this pressure". Does this finding apply to you in your role at the top of the Department?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, I suppose, he doesn't actually say what period he is talking about.

That's why I'm asking if it applies to you in your role.

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, in the four years I was secretary. I don't think so and I took some trouble to set out in my witness statement why I believe that to be the case and the steps that we took to actually try and, if you like, dampen down expenditure as best we could.

So on page 25 of the Wright report, paragraph 3.3.7:

As the representative of the Public Service employers, the Department of Finance had an important input to the Partnership Process, and consistently warned of growing threats to competitiveness. But it did not drive the process, and was reluctant to oppose packages that included outcomes that retained labour peace for the economy as a whole.

Would that be true for your tenure?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, first of all ... I think the Department of Finance through the public service side of it, was the employer, if you like, in those talks ... for the public service, so that's the first thing. I think in some other report, it notes there, I forget where it is now but, that essentially, the unions and the private sector representatives tended to dominate the, you know, the settlement, and then it was applied to the public service, sometimes with pay pauses of six months or whatever. But the idea that we didn't ... I mean, the document I submitted with my witness statement, I mean, clearly shows that we were anchoring the advice we gave on competitiveness, it was a big issue, and also on the, if you like, the upcoming calls on the Exchequer over a long period out until 2050. So I don't know whether he had sight of these, I don't know that, and we would have submitted those to the Government and then say, you know ... and absolutely fed in; there were four principal officers from expenditure division on the one that reported in 2003.

Reflecting on the graph we looked at earlier in relation to the memorandum in June and the budget decisions in December, Wright also says on that same page 25:

Relatively clear advice to Cabinet in June on the risks of excessive spending and tax reductions was lost by the time of December Budgets. Spending pressures of this magnitude could have been resisted even within the established Budget process.

Do you accept that?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, I don't.

You couldn't have resisted the pressures that were coming.

Mr. Tom Considine

Well it wasn't for civil servants to make those decisions. I mean, the reality of government is that these are decisions that are made by Ministers and eventually, you know, approved by the Government.

Were they making decisions with the appropriate advice? I ask that because on page 32 of the Wright report:

There was no analysis or advice on the broader risks to the tax system from a more general downturn in economic activity from levels created in part by pro-cyclical fiscal policy. ... such analysis should have been provided and communicated forcefully to the Minister for Finance and the Government.

Did they have the information to make those decisions?

Mr. Tom Considine

I think so, but I wouldn't be so defensive as to say that this couldn't be presented in a different way.

I mean, one of the things that Wright, you know, talks about - and he's not the only one who does this - is that there was a tendency for the advice to come on the financial side from the Governor of the Central Bank and the regulator direct to the Minister. Now, that doesn't mean that we didn't know about it. Obviously, we got the letters and I was on the board of the Central Bank so I, you know ... but, you know, I'm not going to say there couldn't have been a better presentation of this.

Just a final question because I'm ... I'm out of time. You said earlier on, "We weren't successful in making our advice stick." So, were the decisions taken in the budget contrary to the advice of the Department?

Mr. Tom Considine

Not alone were they contrary to the advice of the Department but they were contrary to the advice of the Minister for Finance as well, as presented at mid-year when the strategy was set. So, as the year went on then ... in the autumn, the pressures within the system meant that that advice was relaxed and the spending was greater for, as you saw there, for most years, apart from 2003----

So, the budgets decided-----

Mr. Tom Considine

-----building in tax-----

Briefly, now, Deputy.

-----the budgets decided after 2003, were decided contrary to the advice of the Department of Finance was giving for that budget year?

Mr. Tom Considine

I'd like to stress again, in relation to the strategy set by the Minister and the Department - both of them together - I went to some trouble to set out, for the 2006 budget, how that worked. It started in February. The Department set out its stall ... said, you know, "This is the way we think budgets should be determined for this country: they should be anchored on competitiveness; they should take account of the things that we can see down the road." On that basis, we think gross public ... gross current expenditure should increase by 6.6.%. In the event, the memorandum that went to the Government had a 7.5% figure which isn't, you know, unreasonable. It's from there on in the autumn, engaging with the other Departments, it wasn't possible to hold that line.

Thank you. Deputy McGrath. Deputy Michael McGrath, ten minutes.

Thank you very much, Chair, and you're very welcome, Mr. Considine. You answered a question earlier on from Senator O'Keeffe about staffing numbers and skills and experience within the Department and you made reference to efforts that were made around 2006 to enhance them. Can you answer the same question but about the earlier period of your tenure, 2002 to, say, 2005, what efforts were made to improve staffing levels, resources, expertise?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, yes I can. Well, first of all, I think the legislation was kind of ... it was ... it was ... it wasn't very modern. So, we actually modernised the legislation and when we had the modern legislation, we moved to target the particular skills that would fit within the Department of Finance and those people, which was very unusual ... we brought in eight people at the same time in the first quarter of 2006. I'd a belief that, you know, they would feed off each other and they would be good for, you know, the ... the Department. In March 2006 we decided to hire another ten. Prior to that, we did a lot to strengthen ... there used to be a system in the Civil Service where people were trained as analysts and back, I think it was in 2003, we relaunched that and invited applications for suitably qualified assistant principals to do a two-years course in analysis. At the same time, we also had diplomas and other analytical courses. So ... and also coming out of the ... I forget which ... which union agreement it was, we got agreement from the unions that where someone left the public service at, say, at a non-recruitment grade, that we could replace them by open competition ... advertise on the market. So ... and as part of that agreement, we also launched a special competition for people with IT skills. So, I mean, I don't quarrel with Wright, that there was a constant issue around trying to keep the skills up to the level that were needed.

Okay. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you made reference a few moments ago in response to Deputy O'Donnell about three independent brokers being involved in 2003, 2004-----

Mr. Tom Considine

No, 2003. In the 2003 budget------

What were you referring to there?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, we ... it was a big ask to actually reduce public expenditure by €900 million below the level that it would cost to keep the existing system operating and we got three people in who would be in good standing, let's put it like that, with the wider Departments - Maurice O'Connell, Dermot Quigley and Kevin Bonner, I think - and-----

Mr. Tom Considine

No, just as, kind of------

As independent-----

Mr. Tom Considine

-----as honest brokers as to how the €900 million cut was to be applied.

Okay. But there was 9.2% increase in spending in 2003, so was it demographic issues that you had to have an actual ... that you would've needed €900 million more?

Mr. Tom Considine

There was a lot of pressure coming on, you know ... coming in to the system and one of the things that we did in 2003, was the Government took a decision to try and cap and then reduce public service numbers because there was quite an amount ... there was a significant amount of spending going on increased numbers.

Can I ask you, Mr. Considine, do you accept now, in hindsight, that the extent of the dependents on cyclical taxes - such as corporation tax, stamp duty, capital gains tax - concealed an underlying vulnerability in the public finances which, when the property market collapsed, was exposed in a very significant way?

Mr. Tom Considine

I do. I accept ... I accept in one sense, like, I mean if you take VAT, which would be one of those big taxes, you can't easily, you know, sort of, distinguish between what happens in the property sector and other sectors. And as I said to the Chairman earlier, once you get into a position where a property market is overheating, it's very difficult. I mean, the obvious thing to say - and it's not a smart comment - is "You shouldn't have allowed it to overheat in the first place". I mean, that is the criticism, if you like. Once you're in there, it's very difficult because if you cut stamp duty, for example, I mean, there's no doubt what you'll do is just drive the market harder and, equally, if it was possible to cut VAT, it would have the same effect. So, once you're in there, it's very hard to get back out of it. Now ... you know, you could argue ... someone could say "Well, you could have offset that by public expenditure cuts" but I think I'm just after demonstrating that we were doing as much public expenditure cuts as we could in 2003 and 2004 anyway.

If I can put it to you, Mr. Considine, an extract from Regling and Watson where they say "The IMF estimates now that in 2007, when the headline budget was approximately in balance [as was reported at the time], the underlying, structural deficit ... had deteriorated to 8¾ percent of potential GDP and amounted to 4 to 6 percent in the run-up to the crisis." So, while large budget surpluses were being reported, in fact, when you stripped out the cyclical element of much of that tax revenue, there were underlying deficits. Do you now accept that?

Mr. Tom Considine

I accept that the cyclically-adjusted ... that the approach to calculating cyclically-adjusted deficits or surpluses wasn't robust enough but the reality of it is that you have to recognise that in the spring of 2006, you had the EU Commission applauding Ireland for the way it was managing its public finances. So, this is all with the benefit of hindsight, people are ... you know ... are doing these exercises and, I think-----

And do you accept it in hindsight?

Mr. Tom Considine

I do, of course, yes.

But it wasn't seen at the time-----

Mr. Tom Considine

No.

-----that this was a risk to the public finances?

Mr. Tom Considine

There was a certain risk in ... as I said, in 2001 and 2002 with the downturn associated with the dotcom bubble, tax revenue fell off by, I think, it was €3 billion between the two years. The reason that sticks in my mind is because I had to answer to that ... for that to another committee, the public accounts committee at the time. So the ... that experience was repeated ad nauseam in advice. I mean, there was a recognition that if ... if things went wrong that ... that you would be hit but, as is demonstrated by the exercise done by the ESRI and so on, the problem is it wasn't seen to be anything like what happened and, viewed against the buffers that I listed out at the start, it wasn't seen to be something that couldn't be handled.

Okay, but I would put to you, Mr. Considine, that the evidence shows very clearly that from the late 1980s onwards, there was a gradual increase in the dependence on the cyclical taxes, being corporation tax, stamp duty and capital gains tax. And during your years as Secretary General of the Department, there was a dramatic acceleration in the dependence on cyclical taxes to such an extent that it increased to 30% in 2006. So 30% of all taxation revenue was deemed to be cyclical in nature and dependent on, essentially, temporary factors which, ultimately, fizzled away.

Mr. Tom Considine

I couldn't agree with that. I mean, corporation tax ... what ... you know ... what ... how can that be, you know, it is cyclical but, I mean, what can you do about it? I mean, we have a ... we have a national policy in relation to our corporation tax rate.

You are disagreeing with the fundamental element of the reports that have been published by Nyberg, Regling and Watson, Honohan?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, it's the definition of cyclical taxes. If ... if you were to narrow the definition to include taxes arising from property then I would agree that that's the case. But what I would say to you is that by the time you get to 2003 or 2004, the scope for actually moving off that situation that you found yourself in is quite limited. And once you get ... once you get into a situation where the property market is overheating, then almost anything you do to cut taxes will have the opposite effect of what you ... what you would like. In other words, it would stimulate the market as opposed to ... to dampen it down.

Okay, can I ... can I just clarify, Mr. Considine, the role of the advice from the Department of Finance in setting the actual quantum of expenditure? And if we take the example that you went into some detail on, 2006 ... in the February 2005 paper, the draft framework for developing the budget strategy memo '06 to '08, that basically set out an expenditure growth in 2006 of 6.6%. Then by June there was a budget strategy memo, which was based on the Department's advice and was accepted by the Minister, and that pencilled in growth of about 7.5%. And then in the ... in the budget, the increase was closer to 11%. So, okay, in February the Department recommended 6.6%; in June the Department was satisfied with 7.5%; but can you advise between June and the first week of December when all of this horse-trading is going on between Ministers and Department officials, what role did the Department of Finance play in October, in November prior to the budget? Did the Department of Finance say, "We reiterate our position that the growth in expenditure should be no more than 6 or 7%.''?

Mr. Tom Considine

The short answer to that is, yes, it did but the longer answer is that this breaks down to individual negotiations between the Ministers for the spending Departments and the Minister for Finance, with officials involved some of the time, and, you know, it's a process that goes on over time and it proved to be impossible to hold that line. That was ... that's it in a nutshell.

Thank you very much, Deputy. Deputy John Paul Phelan. Deputy, ten minutes.

Thanks, Chair. Good afternoon, Mr. Considine. Continuing on from Deputy McGrath's questions, were you happy during your tenure as Secretary General of the Department of Finance that the revenue base of the Exchequer was sustainable into the future?

Mr. Tom Considine

We had concerns about it, as I said. Arising from the experience in 2001-2002, when the dotcom downturn - using short hand-----

Did you conduct any in-depth analysis of-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, we did. Yes, we did. We tried to ... we did a lot of work and it's on the public record. I ... I appeared before the public accounts committee at the time and I set out, you know ... the problem really with a lot of this is that a big driving force in a small, open economy like ours is the initial forecast for the economy. A lot of the tax revenue hinges on that, right? So if the ... if the initial ... if the forecast turns out to be wrong, you know, if it doesn't happen, which is what ... what, you know, essentially happens when you get a crisis, you know, then-----

Did you or any of your senior officials raise with Minister Cowen - it would be by 2006 - a concern that almost a third of the tax base was from these cyclical sources?

Mr. Tom Considine

I don't recall putting it that way. No, I don't.

Can I ask you, in terms of the relationship with ... your relationship with Mr. McCreevy and Mr. Cowen in their roles as Minister, was there a difference in how they approached dealing with officials, dealing with Secretaries General, dealing with the compilation of budgets?

Mr. Tom Considine

I don't think so. I mean, we had you know, I mean, if ... as Secretary General, you would be working very closely with the Minister, all Ministers I imagine, unless there was something very unusual.

So there was no real difference between ... between either?

Mr. Tom Considine

No.

Okay, can I ask then in relation to the loss of competitiveness in the Irish economy? You mentioned that the EU Commission was praising Ireland in the 2006 ... aftermath of the 2006 budget. There was also in that budget an indication that, you know, competitiveness had dropped fairly significantly. Were you raising any concerns at that particular juncture with the Minister?

Mr. Tom Considine

I was in the sense ... if you go back to my paper of ... of February 2005, I mean, that is really based on competitiveness. The whole thing is about competitiveness. What can we afford in Ireland? And government is a cost, government is a cost, just as sure as anything else is a cost.

Did the Minister act on your concerns?

Mr. Tom Considine

He did in the sense that, you know, the recommendation to the Government was ... was, you know, somewhat higher. I mean, you can't afford to ... to ... you can't expect to ... to have 100% success in an argument-----

What did he do? What did he ... can you point to-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, basically we recommended in the memorandum about a 7.5% increase as against 6.6%.

Can I ask did ... did the Department at that time conduct any in-depth analysis of house price growth particularly with reference to maybe other European economies or other economies ... advanced economies in general and as to how crashes had occurred in other economies?

Mr. Tom Considine

This would have been available to us. You know, the ... as I said, the 2005 ... the December 2005 ESRI report, which is the medium-term review 2005 to 2012, that actually did that you know, and set our you know what it saw the consequences of a 33.33% fall in house prices. And in that, I mean, there is a lot of talk about, you know, there wasn't an awareness. There is a table in that report which sets them all out, you know. I mean, that's there.

In hindsight, can I ask you what's your view with regard to ... and it was touched upon with one of the previous speakers, that during your tenure, public expenditure increased by almost 44% in the four years that you were Secretary General. I know you have stated clearly that politicians make policy decisions, but do you have any regrets about the fact that expenditure spiralled to such an extent while you were Secretary General?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, you know, I ... I wish it didn't. I mean, who wouldn't want, you know, a different outcome to what happened? But when I look at ... at ... at the process and as I have set it out, it's for others to judge. But I, you know, I'm satisfied that particularly, you know, in 2006 where I have gone to some trouble to set up the sequence and what happened and how we built our arguments and so on, that we did what you can do as a non-elected official.

Okay. Can I ask you, during your time, did the Department of Finance conduct any in-depth analysis of the banking sector, particularly with reference to the level of concentration of lending to such a small number of individuals, evidence of which we have heard from several witnesses?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes. No, we didn't is the short answer to that. And the reason for that is that the model that we had in place assigned that task to a combination of the regulator and the Central Bank.

Okay, can I ask you to outline maybe ... what is your pension as Secretary General of the Department or former Secretary General of the Department?

Mr. Tom Considine

€118,000.

Okay, can ... can I ask you how ... how did you come to be appointed to the board of Bank of Ireland in 2009? How did that happen?

Mr. Tom Considine

I received a call from, I think, the then Secretary General of the Department of Finance and he asked me would I ... would I take ... be interested. And I was somewhat reluctant so the then Minister, Mr. Lenihan, came on the phone and he said "Look, you know, I'd like you to do that". So I agreed and that's ... that's what happened.

Do you believe you're ... have ... it has been a successful tenure as a director of Bank of Ireland ... that you've contributed?

Mr. Tom Considine

I think so, yes.

Can I ask you is it a remunerated position?

Mr. Tom Considine

Absolutely.

Are you at liberty to say what the level of-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, it's published in the annual accounts of the Bank of Ireland.

Now, Deputy, if I can just one second there, bring you-----

Yes, no, that's fair enough. Can I ask you then, in relation to your time on the board of the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority between 2003 and 2006, when property lending began to soar, did you at any opportunity during that juncture raise some of the concerns which your Department had, we'll say, with regard to increases in expenditure and maybe the cyclical nature of revenues? Did you use your position on the board to raise any of those concerns at the time?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, I think the advice was coming the other way, if you like, that the board of the Central Bank was trying to get the Minister to, you know, to do whatever could be done on the fiscal side as they saw it and my natural instinct in that situation would be not to stick in my oar, so to speak.

Do you regret ... or do you think you should have, in hindsight?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, I don't think so because I had direct access to the Minister and I could advise him on whatever I felt was appropriate.

Okay. Can I ask you, did the interaction between the Department's economic analysis function with the economic research section of the Central Bank change as a result of the 2003 restructuring of the Central Bank and Financial Regulator?

Mr. Tom Considine

Not that I'm aware of, no. I don't think so.

Okay. I have a final question. No, actually that is my final question. Thank you.

Thank you very much and if I can just wrap up one item that you were dealing with Deputy McGrath there a few moments ago, Mr. Considine. You said earlier that the Department did a lot of work on the problem of unsustainability of property-related taxes. Maybe you could give us some further information as to what concrete plans were developed by the Department of Finance to replace the revenues from these sources and have these been considered by or discussed with the Minister at the time?

Mr. Tom Considine

I ... it wasn't so much revenue, what we did the work on really was abolishing incentives to ... to support the property market. That's what the work was. And, essentially, what it should end up doing in the end is saving the taxpayer money.

Was there any worst-case scenarios modelled or examined or looked at?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well the whole ... every scheme was looked at. There were two sets of accountants ... of consultants, Indecon and Goodbodys. If I'm not mistaken, it's all in the public record.

Okay, but I'm asking you was there any worst-case scenarios or contingency plans developed?

Mr. Tom Considine

I ... I ... you know, each scheme - I don't know that any one was worse, you know, as such. I mean, in the case of some of them ... I can't recall offhand but in the case of some of them they would have said "Look, they're not contributing anything to economic growth" and that would-----

I'm not discussing evaluations, now, of a tax measure, Mr. Considine, or I'm not saying that this, kind of, tax measure needs to be filtered in or filtered out or developed or lessened, I'm asking you, in regard to the way that the Department is actually looking at the unsustainability of property-related taxes - and given that 24% of the Irish economy was in the construction sector, given that a lot of consumption taxes were being derived from that, stamp duty, VAT, retail, because white goods would be following and builders providers and all the rest of it - was there any worst-case scenarios or contingency plans developed that ... given the level of exposure that was actually there and identified?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, there was a paper submitted to the Minster. One of the issues would be - and, you know, it was modelled by the ESRI, I think, in 2004 as well - if the output of housing, for example, fell from, you know, whatever it was, 80,000, 90,000 maybe to 40,000, what would be the impact and what could the Government do to replace that in the economy? And there is a paper - I think it's in the core documents somewhere - that was done in relation to that. In relation to the taxation which you're asking, I mean, the work that I was talking about there was more or less the ... when the tax take fell sharply in 2001 and 2002, the work was concerned about understanding why that happened, could we improve the forecasting methods and that kind of stuff, rather than replacing the taxes.

One question just before I bring in Senator D'Arcy. When the bailout programme was entered and taking the banking collapse out of that period, there was a structural deficit of approximately €30 billion regardless of bank debt - approximately €30 billion. When were the seeds of that deficit sown?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, I mean, one of the things that you can look at in relation to that is that paper I submitted, again, and it's at pages 3 to 6 of ... of Vol. 1, TCO. And, essentially, at the outset of that, it says that Government spending was falling up to:

General Government expenditure as a percentage of GNP in Ireland was on a downward trend from 1997 to 2000 ... The total fall in the period was 5 percentage points. There was a 4 percentage points increase over the two years 2001 and 2002.

Now, that was in the context of the dotcom bubble and there was a lot of controversy about it but that ... the response to that, if you like, was a major step change from the direction it was going.

Okay, so you would say that the seeds of that structural deficit was sown during that period, yes?

Mr. Tom Considine

It ... it was a change from a downward path to an increase back again. There were obviously lots of other things ... you can't, you know ... because you're talking about ... you're talking about ... from 2002 to 2008 is six years, there was ... there'd be six budgets in between.

And with other testimony ... and I'll bring Deputy D'Arcy ... or Senator D'Arcy in a moment. The ... a continuous theme coming up in some of the testimony today is that the crisis isn't happening when the crisis ... when the house is on fire, the crisis is happening when there is something else happening earlier in the timeline. And you're indicating that the timeline in and around 2003 onwards was where the seeds - and I need you to clarify this - is where the seeds for the ultimate structural deficit of €30 billion in the Irish economy, separate from the banking debt that actually was there at the time as well and which ultimately led Ireland going into a bailout programme ... are you saying that that ... that the structural aspect of Ireland's requirement to go into a bailout programme, that the seeds were set during that period?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, I'd say that up to 2000 the Irish economy was very competitive. From 2000 onwards, it wasn't and we started depending more on domestic spending like-----

Houses-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Well housing, you know it was all feeding back in.

But the consumption taxes.

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes. But it can all be anchored in competitiveness rather than ... than anything else and the ... you know, I mean, if you look at, going back to that chart, I mean, you can argue that if the advice that was given by the Minister for Finance in the middle of the year had been followed religiously for the ten years, you would obviously have created a greater buffer than what we had. And that's what it's all about at the end of the day.

Senator D'Arcy.

Thank you, Chairman. Mr. Considine, you're welcome. I want to start with the Wright report, Mr. Considine, please, on page 22, section 3.2.5, there's a diagram, you've probably seen it, I'm sure you've seen it.

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes.

Effectively, it's the starting position with the Department in relation to the budgetary expenditure and then the final position. When Mr. Wright was before us, we discussed this. Can I ask your view about that particular diagram in that era?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, I mean if you take ... I mean the diagram speaks for itself. I mean ... but, in reading it, you have to take into account both the domestic and international background. So, I'll say, if you look at 2001 and, in particular there ... I mean, that was, you know, associated with a big downturn in the international economy and, you know, so, it doesn't happen in isolation. If you then take the years 2003-2004, as a consequence of, you know, what had happened previously, there was a greater buy-in to trying to, you know, get things back on track. And you can see there that the advice given by the Minister for Finance, in the middle of the year, stuck to a much greater extent than it virtually did any other time, except with the exception of 2008 there, I'd say. So ... and I have explained, I think, already that in the case of 2005, the pressures were building up in the system, a bit like a pressure cooker. And the ability of the political system to hold the line when the economy is seen to be improving ... see, the ... the argument for ... for holding back was a weaker economy in 2003 and 2004, but that was gone by ... by-----

The report ... the report says, "We examined why relatively prudent fiscal advice in June was systematically ignored in the Budget process." Now, you've mentioned the politicians on a number of occasions. Were you, as an individual, as perhaps the leading civil servant in the State, as a Secretary General, Department of Finance, were you strong enough with your Minister?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, first of all-----

I'm asking ... for your years.

Mr. Tom Considine

It's ... yes, it's quite clear from the draft, they weren't systematically ignored, you know, over the whole period. That's the first thing. The second-----

Sorry, the Wright report says it was.

Mr. Tom Considine

I know, but sure you can read the graph the same as I can. Yes, so-----

Yes ... systematically.

Mr. Tom Considine

Anyway-----

Were you strong enough?

Mr. Tom Considine

In the sense ... if you advise somebody to do something and they don't do it, then I don't think it's up to me to say whether I was strong enough or not. Quite clearly, the advice that was given wasn't taken in some of the years. It was taken in other years.

Did you ... did you see the section when Mr. Wright was before us? Did you see his presentation?

Mr. Tom Considine

I saw some of it.

Yes. One of the lines that he did use was, he would have pressed the red button.

Mr. Tom Considine

I saw that bit.

Yes. Would ... would you ... why did you not press the red button?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, first of all, I don't have a red button. It's very colourful, but I don't ... I didn't have a red button. But I think the bottom line is, partly as a result of that, I went to a lot of trouble to show how we went about providing the advice in ... for the 2006 budget. And, you know, that was ... that's how it was. It's there in black and white. I don't know whether Mr. Wright saw that or not, I don't know. But, anyway, that's it.

Okay. I'll move on, Chairman. You were a member of the CBFSAI board?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes.

Okay. Why did the board and the Department accept the soft landing scenario?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, in ... you know, just to take ... I mean, some people say, in particular, that, you know, at the end of 2005, you know, it should have been clear that some kind of action should be taken. Now, the ... in the ... the middle two quarters of 2005, that's from April to September, say, there was a general view that the housing market was coming off the top. But, as ... and you can see that reflected in the actual stability report. But, once the fourth quarter began, doubts began to emerge about that. And I've seen that repeated in ... in different papers from different organisations. So, when it came to producing the 2005 stability report, the view was that the growth in population, the huge numbers additional at work, the rise in the prosperity of the country, and so on, explained an awful lot of the increase in property prices. That is, you know, that is, I think, the reason why, you know, there was an acceptance that a soft landing. Now, if you go to the OECD report which went into this in great depth, it was done in March 2006, and they are one of the few people actually who defined what a soft landing is and they say quite clearly that the most likely thing to happen is that prices will stabilise and stay that ... and stagnate for a number of years.

Mr. Considine, in the Honohan report, on page 84, under section 6.17, he points out that the FSR cites no quantitative analytical evidence for the conclusion of a soft landing. You say there is from other sectors?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, I didn't ... I didn't say that. I'm just outlining what the thinking was. Now, the ... in relation to ... there's so many of these reports. The IMF did an assessment of Irish banks in 2006, it published it in August 2006. And it did a stress test, it got a stress test done, and the actual outcome was published by the IMF as Annex II to its report. And it makes clear that they were considering a 40% ... the impact of a 40% fall in house prices. Now, the fact of the matter is they still concluded that the banks would still be able to cope with that. Now, it's quite clear that there was some problem with those stress tests, but that was the state of knowledge. Looking at them now it's very easy to say they couldn't have been right.

We'll move on then to the FSR reports and during your period there was an ... Deputy Higgins discussed the growth of the balance sheets. But the growth in personal indebtedness went from 71% in 1995 to ... of GDP to 248% projected in the final 2007 FSR report. The vast majority of that happened on your watch, from '02 to '06, where they passed the European average and then went from the European average to the most indebted citizens in Europe. Can I ask your explanation how that was allowed go unchecked, with you, as the most senior, or certainly one of the most senior, civil servants in the State, in the crucial Department in question?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, as I ... as I said to you, we had established a structure, a model, for dealing with regulation, and that-----

Personal indebtedness specifically, Mr. Considine, please.

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, well that's part of regulation, yes, very much so. And, the fact of the matter is that, I mean, it's not that there wasn't an awareness of these risks. There was clear ... clearly ... clear awareness of those risks.

But the action or inaction?

Mr. Tom Considine

The ... to the extent that action was required, it had to be taken by the regulator.

What action would-----

-----the time there again.

Does an indebtedness level at some stage move beyond a regulatory problem and become a matter of stability, and therefore not become an issue, for your role in the Central Bank, and your role in the Department of Finance? Back to yourself, Senator, but if you can answer that first.

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, it would and, you know, it would be based on the analysis. The situation in relation to that tie-up, if you like ... both the Central Bank and the regulator inputted into assessments of the stability of the system. Now, if those had pointed out that some action needed to be taken then obviously that would have been discussed, but that just didn't happen. Now, you can say, with the benefit of hindsight, I mean, something more should have happened.

I'll bring you back in there.

Yes, Chairman. Mr. Considine, I'm not saying with the benefit of hindsight. FSR report after FSR report clearly itemised the level of personal indebtedness for the citizens was increasing. Start from the low level, move up to European average, surpass the European average, and then the people of this country became the most indebted in Europe.

Not with the benefit of hindsight, why was there not actions taken to deal with the level of indebtedness of which you are a member of the board? The Chairman has touched upon that. That's certain - I won't use surely - that could have been a stability concern for the board of the Central Bank of which we've discussed previously there were powers available to do something about it but those powers were unused.

The question is made. Mr. Considine.

Mr. Tom Considine

The analysis that we did and the discussions that we had didn't lead us to the conclusion that it threatened the banking system.

The highest level of indebtedness in Europe.

Mr. Tom Considine

That's the conclusion that's there in the public domain.

And now, with hindsight?

Final question, Senator.

Mr. Tom Considine

Obviously, the stress tests and so on that were done weren't sufficiently either technically correct or robust to give the answer that eventually ... you know-----

And, finally, what was going to be the outcome when there was a downturn, when the citizens were now hugely indebted and there was a downturn when the banks were going to be coming looking for the money?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, I suppose, Deputy, or Senator, the ... you know, we're looking at this with the benefit of hindsight.

I am not talking about hindsight. The growth started and continued unchecked.

Mr. Tom Considine

I think the consequences ... the number of people who are impacted in the event of a downturn depends on the severity of the downturn. The greatest driver for bad debts is unemployment. So it does depend on the extent of the downturn and we did not see at the time an event of the type that happened.

I might return to this in the wrap-up and give you some time to think about it. The Keane report and all the other reports actually showed that the critical matter of dealing with debt is affordability; it is not necessarily unemployment. If a household income is reduced, not even made unemployed, there are affordability difficulties that arise and I may touch on that point again with you in the wrap-up. Senator D'Arcy, or excuse me, Senator Marc MacSharry.

Mr. Considine, thanks very much for coming in. I'm going to start with this question. You may have covered aspects of it already. Can you remember if, and at what time during your tenure, the Central Bank identified excessive property-related lending and the heavy interbank borrowing of Irish banks as a substantial threat to their financial stability?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, I suppose the whole time that was there, once credit was increasing rapidly, which it was, this concern was there. I mean, it is not about not recognising it; it's about whether you ... what you consider to be the threat that it poses and the analysis that was available suggested that the banks could deal with any likely shock to the system. And that's where the flaw, you now, was. It wasn't that ... I mean, it would have been clear that credit was increasing; it was clear that house prices were increasing.

Yes, so you felt that everything is okay, it is increasing year on year to a huge amount. People have mentioned percentages earlier on. But it was felt, according to yourself, that this was sustainable, this was a storm that could be weathered if it turned into a storm.

Mr. Tom Considine

I think that last bit is more accurate. That, you know ... that describes it better.

Okay. Against the backdrop of a small open economy like Ireland, export-led in many terms in the context of its past in the 1980s and so on. As a percentage, exports have been falling from the late 90s. Is that the case?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, I think from ... yes, certainly around 2000 anyway we weren't as competitive as we had been.

And did that ring any bells?

Mr. Tom Considine

It did and, as I said, an awful lot of our advice was formulated against that background of trying to restore competitiveness. And I mean, it is ... once you lose competitiveness, it is extremely difficult to get it back, because it's the totality of your costs and nobody wants ... people don't want to have their pay cut, they don't want to have, you know, a loss of income or whatever so it is not easy to reverse that.

So what tangible measures did you, as Secretary General, recommend specifically to counteract the loss of competitiveness in the early 2000s particularly?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, as I said, in 2003 which was, you know ... the 2003 budget was my first budget and it was an extremely tight budget. I am not claiming that, you know ... it was as much to do with the fact that we were coming out of a downturn, which ... and that there was an expenditure momentum in the system which it was necessary to counteract. And that required some pretty harsh expenditure cuts, and, indeed, the whole budget was pretty tough so ... and 2004 is much the same except on the graph it does not look as bad but it probably was even worse.

But exports kept falling, so it was not enough. Would that be fair to say, or not?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, I mean, when you are in a ... I don't think you can cure the ... you know, a loss of competitiveness by budgetary policy alone. It requires sensible incomes policy as well and that's a much bigger issue which involves private sector as well as the public sector.

In terms of taxation, is that what you mean?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, in terms of pay levels themselves, pay levels.

Could you expand on that? Do you mean that the private sector needed to keep pay low or-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes. If you're uncompetitive, there's a whole range of costs. How much is your government costing you? How much are your inputs costing you? So in other words, are your pay levels in line with those of your competitors?

Was it the Department policy at the time, or view, that the private sector was irresponsible because it was paying too high wages?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, it wasn't. It was .... in the period up to 2001, the economy was very strong and the pressures and that, you know, coming from that, I think, drove up wages. I mean, there's a kind of a belief that, say, for example, if you want to build roads and you have the money to build them, that that's your problem solved. Well, it isn't, because you need engineers and you need planners and you need ... and sometimes, I ... that paper that I submitted, again going back to it, mentions that, that in the early years, the skills weren't in the system and you ended up pushing up wages and costs. So it's not that anybody is acting irresponsibly; it's ... we were coming from a situation where-----

Okay, so. My time is limited. So am I right in saying what you're saying is that, you know, circumstantially we were losing competitiveness despite our best efforts, or despite any efforts that could be made. Is that what you mean?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, in a sense, because when an economy is successful, one of the ways that slows it down is prices are bid up and it's almost unavoidable.

Okay. Earlier on, Deputy Higgins brought you to the core documents and we saw the submission from the IAVI, which was one and you said there were many, and horse-trading goes on and people make representations on behalf of their sector, and they are either taken into account or not, or in part or whatever, in your deliberations. Is that what happens?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, you are mixing ... I didn't say horse-trading goes on in relation to the taxation-----.

Okay, well, I withdraw than then but the submissions come in and you consider their contents. Is that what happens?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, that's it. There's a whole industry around it, 350 or ... depending on how you count them.

So lobbying, I suppose, we might call that.

Mr. Tom Considine

I suppose so.

Okay. So a lot would come in would they, from all sorts of individuals and organisations?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, I tried to get a handle on it there yesterday and the way they are accounted now from FOI is each one is counted. I think there was 1,200 of them last year. So ... but they are fed into the system and, you know, the big organisations, like, with staff and so on, they submit well-developed-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes.

So is it fair to say, or not, or is it the case that certain organisations have a higher weighting in terms of the attention that might be given, or the consideration that might be given by the Department and the Government?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, I suppose, you know, if you represent-----

For example, IBEC, the unions?

Mr. Tom Considine

If you represent a lot of people, you know, inevitably-----

Okay. So it would be based-----

Mr. Tom Considine

-----you're more likely to be-----

It would be based predominantly on the size of the representative organisation?

Mr. Tom Considine

Generally I'd say that's right.

Okay. Just ... and, again, my time is short, so quick answers if we can. Would you say that any one sector had an unbalanced impact on budgeting policy at that time, based on what was 1,200 last year in the numbers, in terms of lobbying that went on for that budget?

Mr. Tom Considine

It'd be very hard to make that judgment. I mean, you know-----

But if you had to call it, would you say education had more of an input than property, or-----

Mr. Tom Considine

No, it varies from time-----

-----the arts industry had more of an input than technology? I mean-----

Mr. Tom Considine

No, it varies from time to time and-----

Okay, so at that time specifically?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes. I'd say, in my time, health probably got more resources than-----

Health got more resources?

Mr. Tom Considine

-----virtually anywhere.

Can I also ask, as these submissions that would come in in advance of a budget, would they come from political parties, from politicians?

Mr. Tom Considine

I think a lot of them came from somebody like you have here approaches their local TD. You might approach three or four of them, in which case you get three or four-----

Yes. Well, would parties make submissions, pre-budget submissions?

Mr. Tom Considine

I don't think so. I stand to be corrected on that now, but I don't think so.

Okay. But often TDs and-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Ah yes, individual TDs, they'd be approached-----

Mr. Tom Considine

-----and they'd write to the Minister.

Mr. Tom Considine

I ... you know, I-----

Finance spokespeople?

Mr. Tom Considine

Can I tell you, I hardly ever saw these.

Mr. Tom Considine

They're dealt with down at the section level.

So, you didn't read any submissions?

Mr. Tom Considine

Excuse me now, you're putting words in my mouth.

No, no, no, I'm only asking.

Mr. Tom Considine

I didn't read-----

I'm only asking.

Mr. Tom Considine

I didn't read these particular ones because they're coming in to, sort of, feed in to the production of the finance Bill and so on like that.

Did you read any?

Mr. Tom Considine

What I did was when every ... what happened in the end then, just to follow it through a small bit, this led to the production of a note, or a paper from the Minister, to decide if it was an issue that was going to be changed and they were submitted and I remember we spent maybe two days down with the Minister and we'd go over all of them and that's just one input, you know. At the back of it, the tax strategy group would be meeting at the same time and the analysis would come up, so inevitably if somebody came in with something that we hadn't know already, that'd be taken on board.

Okay, last question, and thank you, Mr. Considine. Can you tell me, from the best of your recollection, and bearing in mind that you didn't read all the submissions that came in, but obviously you liaised with your staff who did, could you put a very rough estimate, to the nearest hundred even, of the number of submissions that would have come in from any organisation, TD or political party that sought less expenditure and more taxation in that period?

Mr. Tom Considine

I ... since I didn't read them all and I ... I don't think I can answer that question. I don't know what the answer to it is.

No, well I'm asking you to-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, I don't know-----

I'm asking you, in your experience, to answer the question.

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, but I don't-----

And that's what we're here to do.

Mr. Tom Considine

I don't know of any-----

Would you say there were any?

Mr. Tom Considine

Probably not.

All right, thank you.

Thank you very much. Okay, Senator Sean Barrett.

Thank you, Chairman, and welcome, Mr. Considine. In your opinion, did you feel that, during the course of your tenure in the Department of Finance, that the Department of Finance was well informed by the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator as to matters concerning financial stability?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, in so far as the advice was published, the analysis was published each year and the Governor personally briefed the Minister.

If I bring you to page 73 of your own Vol. 1 in the core document, the briefing of the new Minister for Finance in 2004, and Nyberg notes, "However, the brief was silent in relation to credit growth." So that rather contradicts what you've just said to us, that the Minister wasn't briefed in relation to credit growth according to Nyberg in that section on page 73.

Mr. Tom Considine

Page 2 of that submission to the Minister made it clear that he would be briefed separately by the Governor and by the chairman and chief executive of the Financial Regulator.

But you didn't do it on that occasion when you were meeting the new Minister. Could I bring you to page 119 of the same document, the briefing of the Minister in the same year, which says that, "[T]he Bank expresses concern about the high rate of credit growth [...] which has been increasing by around 25 per cent." And the advice to the Minister is to say that the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator, on the next page, should "remain vigilant". Was 25% growth of credit per annum not a matter of some concern in the Department?

Mr. Tom Considine

It was and, you know, it was ... as I say, it was discussed and, you know, evaluated in the context of the stability ... the financial stability report that was published each year and the conclusions arrived at in ... as a result of those evaluations were published and reported to the Minister.

On page 75, Nyberg says:

There is no evidence that the DoF [Department of Finance] was particularly concerned with prudential matters or in assessing any possible financial stability concerns relating to either individual institutions or the financial system collectively. The annual Financial Stability Reports [to which we've referred] ... did not contain any critical analysis.

Mr. Tom Considine

I think, you know, as I said, the model of regulation that was there assigned very clear roles to the regulator and the Central Bank and also where they had to input in relation to the stability of the system. So I ... you know, I don't know what, you know, what that is based on. And the annual financial stability reports, you know, to the best of my recollection, did contain analysis and they were certainly based on analysis by the relevant sections.

On page 73:

In particular, substantive discussions do not appear to have taken place directly between the DoF [Department of Finance] and the CB [Central Bank] on the content of the various Financial Stability Reports, either before or after their publication ... no officials were present and there appear to be no records of the discussion in either departmental [the Department] or CB [Central Bank] files.

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, the reason for that, I imagine, is that ... well, first of all, I was on the board of the Central Bank and therefore I was present when the discussion took place in relation to each stability report and I agreed with the conclusions that were published in them. That's the first thing. The second thing is that the Governor then came in ... these of course were published. But the Governor then came in to see the Minister and brief him on what was in it so that was the model that we used.

I read at page 75:

The Spring 2007 QEC [quarterly economic commentary] also noted that if the astonishing growth in net foreign borrowing by Irish credit institutions since 2003 had been used to fund the ongoing boom in the housing market, the situation was not sustainable. This particular point does not appear to have been followed up the DoF [Department of Finance] or brought to the attention of the Minister.

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes. Sorry, Senator, but I wasn't in the Department at that time.

When you were on the board ... or the council of the ESRI and the board of the Central Bank and the Secretary General, did it come to your attention, because it's been in evidence here, that a man who's code named "Nervous Nelly" in the Department of Finance rang up Professor John FitzGerald to complain about the content of a report? And there was also ... Mr. O'Connell said that he rang the ESRI to complain about a reference to the property market by Professor Alan Barrett.

Did you know that on the three boards who were on, that one of them ... that pressures were being exerted by people from the other two organisations which were associated?

Mr. Tom Considine

I didn't, no. I think ... well, first of all, I think, in fairness, there should be, you know ... I was on the council of the ESRI and we didn't interfere with any of their academic work. It was purely just managing the organisation and that's a fact. The second thing about it is that as part of its ongoing day-to-day work, and I think John FitzGerald said this, there would have been contact between the relevant section and the Department of Finance and the ESRI and that was mainly technical. Now, every now and again, inevitably, there would be maybe difference of opinion which would be more than technical. Now, I inquired ... I got on to the Department of Finance and I was told anyway that ... that one of the issues anyway definitely didn't concern me, it happened after I had left. I don't know anything about it. I couldn't get to the bottom of the nervous Nellies either, so I'm afraid I can't help you with that.

And thank you for that. Because I would have some concern that the apparent consensus that's been referred to was, in fact, manufactured because of the way the contrarians may have been silenced in one way or another and I thank you for your clarification because I would not like if such had occurred. The IMF concerns about house prices in Ireland ... you know, double digit growth rates in 2006. The concerns of the IMF in 2003 ... and a five-line note from the Minister saying, you know, "Dismiss the IMF on house prices". Didn't we pay a price for that afterwards?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, we did and, I mean, I think this - you know, I think I touched on this before - I mean, this was based on a belief of a few things. One is that supply and demand would help to solve the problem. The second thing is that there had been a large increase in the population of Ireland and, in particular, the number of people at work. And that the ... that the prosperity and wage levels in the country had increased. And the belief was that this accounted for a lot of the increase in property prices. Now, you know, with the benefit of hindsight, you know, you'd have to question that.

Did the Department monitor commercial property prices at all?

Mr. Tom Considine

No. I mean, basically as ... as ... except in so far as ... I think the analysis that we did ... I haven't gone into all the reports now that were done by Indecon and Goodbody and I imagine, having looked at 13 different property incentives, that they looked at, certainly, those sectors.

And a last one, if I may, thank you, Mr. Considine. That ... while there are rumours, I suppose, that the Department of Finance was against directors' compliance statements ... that Nyberg says he could find no evidence that the Department of Finance gave explicit instructions to the Financial Regulator not to proceed with the implementation of that provision. Have you ... like to cast on that? Is Nyberg right or did the Department in fact try to postpone directors' compliance statements in banks?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, I think ... I inquired about this and I'm told that the ... whatever decision was made on it, wasn't made during my time. But, I think, though, that I did see somewhere that ... that ... it was pointed out as well, that the Department said that the bank could impose these requirements selectively, you know ... that they had the power to do that.

Thank you. Thank you, Chairman.

Okay, thank you very much. Deputy Pearse Doherty. Deputy, ten minutes.

Go raibh math agat a Chathaoirligh agus fáilte roimh an tUasal Considine. Can I start by maybe just asking you - in relation the interaction that took place ... regular interaction that took place between the Department of Finance, the Central Bank and the ESRI on matters regarding macroeconomic forecasting - in your recollection, Mr. Considine, were there ever any major difference in outlooks between the different parties and if there were, how were those differences dealt with?

Mr. Tom Considine

I'd say, you know, Dublin is obviously a small place and I'd say that the forecasters are fairly regularly in contact with each other. So it would be a bit naive to claim that, you know ... you'd be unlikely to produce a forecast if you were in the Department of Finance without knowing what, you know, the ERSI and the Central Bank and various other people ... indeed, not alone that, but we published it in the budget statement every year, I think, while ... certainly in a number of years ... and we said "Here's what our forecast is, here's what the other ones are". And in one year we actually compared how the forecasts worked out over time. So, you know, there would've been-----

Was there any ... was there major differences-----

Mr. Tom Considine

I-----

-----between the three and if there were major differences, how were they worked out?

Mr. Tom Considine

I wouldn't necessarily know because this would be, you know, very much at technical level.

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes.

In relation to the financial stability report which you signed off on as a board member of the Central Bank, did you agree with - you say you agreed with the report ... was it your view or not that the warnings or the risks that were in ... outlined in the financial stability report were toned down? Was there more information at board level in relation to ... board level in relation to the risks than actually went into the financial stability report?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, I don't think so. I've seen this ... and including the proposition that somehow we should have been saying something in private and saying something different in public, wouldn't like to be here trying to explain that. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, this is pretty straight down the middle. The analysis came to the board, the discussion took place between the two boards, they signed off, there were no dissensions. Now, you know as well as I do if you're on a board, you dissent if you're strong and your dissent ... you should have it recorded.

But, in your view ... and that's fair enough ... but in your view there was no stronger feelings in ... there's been evidence given, for example, that if you said there was such a risk to financial stability it would be self-fulfilling, it would bring on the thing you wanted to avoid. In your view, were there any kind of discussions of that nature at board level in relation to the financial stability report?

Mr. Tom Considine

No. Well, I need to be careful. I saw that evidence you're talking about. It didn't apply during the time I was there and, to be clear, that's the ... 1 November 2005 was the last stability report that I was involved with.

Okay. You mentioned earlier to one of our Deputies, your pension was in the region of €118,000, I think. That's the current, probably, salary, is it? I think it was higher than that at one stage.

Mr. Tom Considine

Not much.

Not much. I think it was €125,000-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Twenty three.

-----that's been put on the Dail record. Can I ask you, in relation to your appointment as a public interest director, did you receive the €97,000 - as a public interest director - in 2012 on top of the pension or was that subsumed into the pension?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, that was on top of it.

On top of the pension. And when did you step down as a public interest director?

Mr. Tom Considine

I didn't.

You didn't? You're still a public interest director?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, I am.

And what is the level of fees for a public interest director on the board of Bank of Ireland today?

Mr. Tom Considine

All directors have the same fees.

Mr. Tom Considine

€63,000 for being a director and, with additional allowances for chairmanship of committees ... and committees so ... that's it in a nutshell.

So, what is the total just for the last published year that you have?

Mr. Tom Considine

€98,000.

€98,000. So that was to ... for 2014, is that correct?

Mr. Tom Considine

That's it.

So it began at €79,000 in 2009, went up to €90,000 in '10-----

Just, now, with the timeframe now, Deputy.

---in '11 up to €90,000, '12 it went up €97,650 and then two more years it went up marginally.

Mr. Tom Considine

All those figures are published in the annual reports of the Central ... of the Bank of Ireland.

Okay. Can I ask you the question, in terms of the term "public interest director" - you've been paid over half a million euro, in excess of half a million euro, for your role as public interest director - is there a difference between a public interest director and a director of Bank of Ireland?

Mr. Tom Considine

I might've answered that question the last time I was before your committee but, this time ... there's only one director of a company. You know, all directors have the same responsibilities. The difference is that the Minister decided to appoint people with a public sector background in the belief that that would influence the way they looked at things. It's as simple as that.

But in the 2006 ... 2010, I think, Central Bank Act, all the directors of what they call the covered banks, banks that were ... they all have a public interest obligation.

Okay. Can I ask you, just, when was the first time that you became aware that the bank that you were a director of was providing bonuses to its customers to the tune of €66 million and was subsequently fined by the State?

Mr. Tom Considine

To the staff. Bonuses to staff.

Bonuses to staff.

Mr. Tom Considine

I don't ... I don't know about ... I was, I was directed to come here to address something else. I'm not ... I don't even understand that question.

Well, the question is, Bank of Ireland was, was paying out-----

Okay. Now, when was this this, Deputy?

It was ... this was during the terms of reference of the banking inquiry. They were providing bonuses after the guarantee, which was prohibited under the terms of the guarantee, to its staff - there was a special report done by the Department of Finance that was commissioned by the Department of Finance - which totalled €66 million. They showed that bonuses were being paid out or to be paid out and Bank of Ireland was fined €2 million as a result of this in terms of, I believe, misleading information to the Department of Finance. The Dáil record had to be ... had to be corrected because misleading information was given to the Minister of Finance at a prior occasion. As a director of that bank, were you ... as a public interest director of the bank, when did you become aware of such an event that were in breach of the guarantee?

Mr. Tom Considine

To be honest, Deputy, I haven't reviewed those papers, you know, for ... for a long time now, so ... if you want me to come back and give you the details of that, I'll be happy to do it.

Were you aware before the Minister was made aware?

Mr. Tom Considine

I don't know the answer to that.

Okay. Can I ask you in relation to the property tax reliefs ... and you talk ... you talked at length in relation to the fact that you phased them out in 2006 in the Finance Acts 2006, but is it not the case, Mr. Considine, that these property tax reliefs were going to expire in 2006 anyway? Can I put it to you that the urban renewal scheme was actually going to expire in 2002 and extended to 2004 and then extended to 2006 and then extended to 2008? Can I put it to you that the living-over-the-shop scheme was extended twice during the period of the scheme? The rural renewal scheme was extended twice up to 2006. There was the park and ride scheme, the town renewal scheme, the student accommodation scheme. The multi-storey car park scheme was extended twice over the period of that scheme. And these were all supposed to conclude either in 2002 and 2004 and were extended to 2006 and 2008. Wasn't it not the case, if the Department took a position of no policy change, that these would have just ... there was an exit clause or a conclusion date on them that you decided in your review to extend up until 2008?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes. Well, I think I said that, you know, ideally these should have been ended a lot earlier, you know, than they were, but the reason for it was there was a nervousness about the whole property and housing ... particularly housing and I, I think the reason why there was such a thorough exercise conducted in 2005 was to make sure that we didn't do any great damage by ending them. They could have ended. They could have ended-----

But they were due to end is the point I'm making.

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, yes.

The evidence that's been provided is-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes.

-----that you began to phase them out, but is that not just changing the language? They were going to expire but the Department intervened or the Minister intervened to extend them on a number of occasions, including in 2006. And can I ask you this point here: is ... when you mention that ... your concerns in relation to the property sector and you mention the implementation of the Bacon report, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you suggested that there was a dip in property prices as a result of it, can I-----

Mr. Tom Considine

I'm not sure it was a result of the Bacon report. What happened was, as a ... what was seen to have happened as a result of the Bacon report was that the effect of it was to reduce the amount of people coming into the buy-to-let sector and it drove up property prices or, it drove up rents. I think the fall off in house prices, it's probably as much to do with the downturn in the economy.

Which fall off, sorry?

Mr. Tom Considine

This was in ... I think it was 2001.

Can I put it to you that-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes.

-----there was no fallout ... fall off in property prices and the Department of Environment statistics, which are published on their website, will actually show that there was an increase in house prices right throughout that period, including in 2000, 2001-2012?

Mr. Tom Considine

If you take individual years, yes, but I'm saying there was a period of three or four months where house prices fell.

Could you not leave it sure to ... to go the way you did? Could you not have waited longer?

Mr. Tom Considine

At that time, I wasn't dealing with this particular situation.

Would you consider it premature on reflection now?

Mr. Tom Considine

I, I don't think so because I, I think that there wasn't a proper appreciation of what the impact would be of the decisions when they were made.

But given that you would be looking at budgets on an annualised basis, you'd be operating data off an annualised basis, that two or three months of data to then engage in such a significant decision with just three months' data, would that not ... would that be common practice that a decision of that scale would be made on very limited data confined to two or three months? I mean, we know the house prices cycles operate in different times of the year. People don't buy a house in December if they can avoid it. They'll most likely buy it in the summer when the days are longer.

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes. I, I think there was a feeling at the time that, you know, you couldn't, you know, if, if this got momentum, you know, that you mightn't be able to stop it. So that's the ... you know, that's essentially, I think-----

Can I put it to you-----

Now, can you wrap up.

-----just, finally, to wrap up here. Mr. Considine, you're talking about, you know, we've put on the record that these ... these were extended on a number of occasions-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes.

-----right up until 2008. And you're saying because of the three-month blip in house prices in 2001, that that was a concern. Now, given the fact that second-hand houses in Dublin rose by €30,000 between 2001 and 2002 ... but can I put it to you, in 2006 a second-hand house average price was €512,000, compared to in 2001, when this blip happened, of €267,000. How could a three-month blip, where the overall year showed an increase in house prices of quite a substantial amount, be of a major concern when people like the ESRI and others are saying that there is an overheating in the economy and we need to start to not just phase out the property tax reliefs but "Do not extend them", which is what calls were being made at that time from external agencies? And what was your advice? Were you of the view, in 2002, 2004, 2006, that each of these property tax incentives should have been not extended at that point in time?

Mr. Tom Considine

I don't recall exactly, you know, on each individual ones but I did review the files in relation to it and it's just a fact people were nervous about intervening in the property market. That's a fact. And, you know, you can-----

Your view ... sorry, your view.

Mr. Tom Considine

No, it's-----

Were you nervous?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, it's ... at that time, 2001 and 2002, I wasn't really dealing with this, but this continued on down. There was a whole structure around looking at the taxation of property and so on, the tax strategy groups and so on. And what I'm saying to you about ... what I'm picking out of the analysis that I've done is that there was this concern not to upset the property market.

Thank you very much, Deputy. I'm going to move towards a wrap-up. I'll just deal with a couple of questions and then I'm going to conclude with the two lead questioners. I just want to revisit one question that was ... I think Deputy O'Donnell engaged with you this morning ... I just need a bit of clarity on it ... it's during your tenure as Secretary General as to what was the role of the Department of Finance in overseeing the Financial Regulator. If you could explain to us, Mr. Considine, was this role restricted to legislative issues related to the implementation of the new regulatory system or did it expand beyond that?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, the legislation that established the regulator set out in some detail what the regulator was required to do. For example, section 33P required the regulator to draw up a strategy statement. And that legislation was more specific. It also specified what was to be in it. So the function of the Department was to review the strategy statement to see did it actually comply with the Act, did it have in it what it was supposed to have.

Then that was submitted to the Minister and then the Minister laid it before both Houses of the Oireachtas.

Was the term "soft landing" forged during your tenure?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, it was kind of ... I don't know whether it was forged during my tenure, but, it ... it was there anyway because the ... the ... I mean, the OECD report of March 2006 is one of the few places where it's defined. It could mean many different things but they define it.

And the other reports, they were, kind of, maybe using similar language but not maybe the exact ... exact terminology. So, if I could ask you in that regard, Mr. Considine, what attempts were being made to qualify ... quantify the effects of a soft landing and what impact this would have on Government finances - for example, in terms of loss of revenue and increased expenditure - what advice was given to Government in this regard?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, as ... as I said to you ... one of the exercises that was done on this by the ESRI, and published in December 2005-----

Was that on the Department of Finance's behalf or was that something that the ESRI took on board to do themselves?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, it was something the ESRI did themselves.

It wasn't something that you commissioned or asked them to do, no?

Mr. Tom Considine

No, but ... I mean, we would have been aware of, you know, all ... all this stuff that was in the in ... in the public domain. I mean, it was published ... this was ... this was published data. So, you know, that's-----

But the Department of Finance, did it carry out any modelling itself on the soft landing?

Mr. Tom Considine

We ... I think it's in one of these core documents here that we did actually look at what the consequences of a fall in the output of the housing market would be from, whatever it was €80,000, €90,000 to 40-----

And what was the concrete evidence or the pinning, the conclusions that you were drawing there?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well I ... I suppose the ...the ... expertise that was in the system in relation to public expenditure and taxation. So, I mean, one of the things the Department did on a regular basis was forecast tax revenue ... in ... in consultation with the Revenue Commissioners and also it did analysis of public expenditure and the cost of funding ... or the cost of spending over a period.

Okay, but that's ... if I could maybe say ... use the statement, all things being equal ... but the Irish economy had very particular difficulties with it at the time. As has been stated earlier, 24% of the economy tied up in construction ... as members have identified a whole series of issues this morning - highest debt, indebtedness in Europe, most ... evidence, I think, I presented myself to yourself this morning, the house ... the highest property values in western Europe, most expensive houses, Dublin more expensive than cities like New York and Hong Kong - just for residential property not even commercial stuff - consumption taxes now becoming the balance of income more so than the structural tax. And ... so where's the evidence to say that as soon as this ... there would be a slow down in construction, there would obviously be a knock-on effect upon employment, this would have a knock-on effect upon consumption taxes, peoples indebtedness levels ... it's not even a case ... like, we know from the finance committee that you've been in before and from the Keane report, that for a lot of people who ran into difficulty, it wasn't that they actually lost their job, what they actually lost was their affordability to actually pay back their debt? Was there any evidence that any of these things was going to happen?

Mr. Tom Considine

I ... I think the work ... the work that was done on ... on these I have outlined already, which was done in the context of the, you know, the ... the ... financial stability reports and the ESRI material. I mean, and our own Department looking at what would be the consequences, you know ... or how could ... how could we support the economy if there was a downturn in the property market.

But .. okay, sorry, go on conclude now.

Mr. Tom Considine

Yeah, but, and I suppose in relation to the experience in 2001 and 2002, when tax revenue fell off, it was apparent - and it was frequently referred to - that this would ... this would be a consequence. And it depended on, you know, how much of a fall ... but there was nobody predicting the kind of economic shock that actually transpired.

And this brings me to my final question, Mr. Considine. The ... what ... what we do know is that there were a lot of external reports by the IMF, the OECD and all the rest. These are all reports about you, about us. These are external reports talking about the state of our house. You're using the language and the vocabulary of a sort landing ... a soft landing and you're referencing the content of their reports with our external analysis of us. Did you carry out any analysis in the Department of Finance with regard to modelling, examining, stress testing and actualising the reality that there would be a soft landing when there was the inevitable downturn that was being projected or identified in the financial stability reports and all the rest?

Mr. Tom Considine

Nothing other than what was in the financial stability reports.

Yes, but I don't want to get into the situation now that we have the IMF report, the OECD report, the others. Did the Department of Finance, under your watch, carry out any examination in preparation to get a concrete evidential book of material to say this is the evidence we're going to base our soft landing on. This is our information, it's not external examinations by the OECD, the IMF or anybody else.

Mr. Tom Considine

No, not to my knowledge, no.

Okay, thank you. Deputy Higgins.

Mr. Considine, just briefly, following on the questions in relation to house prices that Deputy Doherty was on, did you ever discuss with any of the Ministers for Finance the massive increase in house prices that was happening between 1996 and 2006?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, obviously we did, yes, because repeated reports came out drawing attention to it, yes.

Well, the fact that the price of a home for an ordinary working person was going up with the equivalent of the average industrial wage each year for ten years, was that not a cause of a massive discussion with the Minister?

Mr. Tom Considine

Not alone ... it caused massive discussion everywhere but, unfortunately, the conclusions that were arrived at ... were that this was justified to a great extent by reference to what was happening in the wider economy, namely, the big increase in population, the large increase of the number of people at work, something like 600-----

Okay, but, Mr. Considine, how does that justify ripping off young people and extending their mortgages to 35 and 40 years? I mean, the industry ripping them off in terms of ... of the equivalent of the average industrial wage each year-----

We're coming up to lunch, Deputy, and I don't want to be getting indigestion so don't be too prejudgmental but ask the question please.

It started at three minutes rather than five-----

Yes, I ... I'll give you a bit of extra time if you don't give me indigestion.

Sorry, Mr. Considine.

Mr. Tom Considine

Well ... I ... I'm not sure what the, you know ... I mean, I'm not trying to justify the fact that house prices went up.

I know, but why was it not the cause of a massive debate inside in the Department with the Minister and action taken to stop it?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, I think the number of levers that were available to ... to stop or to, if you like, reduce price increases in the property sector are limited.

Was it perhaps a reality, or not, Mr. Considine, that the interests of big property developers and big builders took precedence with the political leadership of the country over the interest of home buyers?

Mr. Tom Considine

I ... I ... I didn't ever see that. I think the concerns that the Government Ministers that I saw was about employment and, generally, economic development. I mean, I ... those terms that you describe, they don't, they don't ring a bell with me anyway.

But that was the reality, that massive profits were made on the backs of young people buying a home. Is that not the case, or is it?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, in the end ... in the end the property market crashed and I don't know who ... you know, not too many people came out well out of it.

Okay. Mr. Considine, in March 2006 the Revenue Commissioners wanted to impose stamp duty on contracts for difference and there was strong lobbying by stockbrokers and interested parties against that. In a book, The Fitzpatrick Tapes, by Tom Lyons and Brian Carey, it was said that on 22 March you were emailed by Davy Stockbrokers significant ... heavily lobbying against this, that PricewaterhouseCoopers also lobbied and that by 30 March, under the Minister, Mr. Cowen, this proposal was dropped. Do you remember this?

Mr. Tom Considine

I do, yes. Actually, what happened was that Revenue was going to issue an opinion that stocks purchased for ... to support sales of contracts for difference will be subject to stamp duty. Now, the understanding I have is that when that piece of legislation was introduced, these didn't exist. So, what we got was representations from the Irish Stock Exchange, the London Investing Banking Association, J&E Davy and PricewaterhouseCoopers. And the essence of it was that if we went ahead and did this, that the stock market would be hit fairly hard in terms of ... in terms of its business and so this was ... it was decided to review it and this was eventually dealt with in the Finance Bill of 2007 with the introduction of intermediary relief and it was fully debated in the Oireachtas and the Taoiseach, Brian Cowen, made a statement on that in Wednesday, 18 February 2009.

So was it the case that powerful interest, stockbrokers-----

Last question now, Deputy, and don't be leading, just ask the question.

-----stockbrokers, developers seemed to win out over the interest of the small people, let's put it like that? And then finally, since I have to conclude, Mr. Considine-----

Okay, Deputy Higgins, I'll have to ask you to put the question, not to present evidence. So if you can maybe put a proposition-----

Yes, I know. I'm putting my last question and the last one was a question as well. But, Mr. Considine, after this very heavy lobbying by Davy Stockbrokers and others, you resigned a few months later and then, within six months, you were employed by Davy Stockbrokers. Would you not see a problem of ... with that?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, first of all, there was no connection between the two things, I can assure you. What happened in the case of Davy Stockbrokers was that they repurchased some of the equity in the firm in the middle of 2006 and they wanted some independent people on their board and that was ... and I had all appropriate approvals for what I did. There was an actual structure in the Civil Service at the time called the outside appointments board and at the ... I submitted to them the proposal to join Davy's board for their direction and that's what happened. In relation to the functions of the Minister and the Department of Finance, one of them is clearly to make sure that we don't do anything which will undermine a sector of the economy. Now, if we have reason to believe that there was something proposed which could cause a significant loss of business to companies operating in Ireland, of course we have a duty to respond to that and look into it and examine it and see, is it wise? If it were considered to be the right thing to do, we would've gone ahead with it.

Thank you. Senator O'Keeffe?

Thanks, Chair. When Minister Lenihan asked you to be a public interest director for Bank of Ireland, did he ask you to waive the fee?

Mr. Tom Considine

No.

Did you consider waiving it given that you would ... only got the job because you'd been ... you had the lifelong career that you'd had and that you were already receiving a pension?

Mr. Tom Considine

No.

No. Did you ever yourself have any informal meetings with representatives of banks or building societies or property developers in your role as Secretary General? Would you have ever met them for a cup of tea or a chat or a briefing?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, as Secretary General, lots of people call in to see you and most of them are courtesy calls but if what you're asking me is did I go to various functions and things like that other than accompanying the Minister, I don't think so.

Did you meet with any other former secretary generals or other members of the Department ... former members or members of the Department of Finance for any briefing prior to this hearing?

Mr. Tom Considine

I got assistance from the Department, yes, they have a section set up to help with ...

But did you meet any other former secretary generals?

Mr. Tom Considine

No.

You didn't. In relation to the tax breaks-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Sorry Deputy, I suppose ... when you say meet, I should be clear about this. I mean obviously some of these are friends of mine. I would have met them in, you know, social settings and so on like that, but if you're saying, did I discuss, you know, what evidence I was going to give, or anything like that, no.

No, you didn't discuss evidence-----

Mr. Tom Considine

No, no.

-----but you would've met them socially?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes.

Okay. In relation to the cost of the tax breaks we discussed earlier that Indecon produced, did you have any idea in your own head that the final cost to the Exchequer of those tax breaks would be as high as it was or did you have any idea at all?

Mr. Tom Considine

We did, sure we knew what they were, you know, we had various tables showing what they were, yes.

So why did you require Indecon to give you a figure and given that you then knew them and they were so high, why did you allow them to go ahead if you knew the costs to the Exchequer would be as high as it was?

Mr. Tom Considine

I think we're ... the taxes that Indecon looked at were specifically tax breaks to support the building industry. And what they were doing, was not so much looking at the cost of them, but looking at the effectiveness of them and what they were contributing to the economy and whether there was a case for continuing them in that regard.

So what was your view when it was revealed by Goodbody that it was a small group of high net worth individuals that had in fact benefited from those tax breaks rather than a broad-based benefit? What was your view, was that something you'd expected or did you know or were you concerned?

Mr. Tom Considine

I would've expected that, yes. Because, I mean, you need large income to benefit from-----

Had you advised the Minister that in fact this would not have a broad-based benefit but that it would be individual high net worth people that would benefit from such tax breaks?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, I think if ... just to speak about 2006 budget, I mean, the Minister took action in the 2006 budget.

No, I'm talking about past ... I'm talking about before that.

Mr. Tom Considine

Before that.

Mr. Tom Considine

I don't recall. But to be honest, I don't think anybody who would be familiar with the tax system would have had any doubts that it would be people with high income who would benefit most from these.

I have one last question, Chair, and that is, you referred several times, Mr. Considine, to the expression "People were nervous." Who were those people and what do you mean by nervous? Because you said several times also that, you know, you, as a Secretary General, and your team could only advise and in the end the politicians decided. So I'm not clear - were those people auctioneers, property developers, bankers, civil servants, politicians, Ministers, the Taoiseach? I'm not clear.

Mr. Tom Considine

I'd say the Civil Service advisers and the Minister, I'd say were both ... maybe I shouldn't have used the word "nervous", but they were concerned that you needed to be extremely careful in interfering with the property market in case you would cause a severe downturn. I think that was ... that's the-----

So that if anything was ... I just ... let me ... I'm sorry, Chair, I just need to be clear. So that if any changes were to be effected, that there was concern that those changes might make the property market go down, is that right?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes, I think it's not so much if changes were made, but that they needed to handled carefully and consequently. If you look at the Indecon and Goodbody reports, you will see that they both recommended phasing out of these rather than just an abrupt end to them. And that's the-----

Sure, but you knew, because you've just told us, you knew that there were high net worth individuals that were effectively benefiting from all of this. So were there not flags being raised in your advice that if high net worth individuals were benefiting from this, that perhaps this advice needed to be rescinded?

Mr. Tom Considine

But I'm not sure I see the connection between the two things. I mean, the reason for the property tax incentives was not driven by a desire to reduce the tax paid by individuals. It was designed to-----

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, it's an inevitable consequence. Any tax ... any tax break is going to benefit somebody, otherwise it won't work.

Right, and so are there figures-----

Right, but last question now, Senator, I'm wrapping up.

Yes, in fairness, you've said that you can't remember whether you gave that specific advice as to the benefits that people would get ... whether you gave that advice to the Minister?

Mr. Tom Considine

Well, I ... to be honest, I think it would have been so self-evident, I don't see how you could have tax incentives that wouldn't benefit high net worth individuals.

Thank you. Okay, with that said, I'm going to bring matters to a conclusion, we're going to break for lunch. In doing so, I'll just wish to wrap up with yourself, Mr. Considine, and in doing so to invite you, if you want, to make any final comments by means of closure, or by means of clarification to anything else you've said.

Mr. Tom Considine

No, thank you, Chairman. Thank you for your courtesy. Thank you.

Could I just ask, just on that point, the information that he said ... you said you would look for in terms of the bonuses, if that could be furnished?

Mr. Tom Considine

Yes.

And Mr. Considine has agreed to do that.

Mr. Tom Considine

I'll send it in to the committee.

Okay, with that said, I'd like to thank Mr. Considine for his participation here today and for his policy of engagement with the inquiry. The witness is now excused. The witness is suspended until ... or the meeting is suspended until 2.30 p.m. when we will hear from the further witnesses from the Department of Finance. So, with that said, thank you again, Mr. Considine, for your engagement with the inquiry this morning. I propose that we suspend until 2.40 p.m., but I would suggest just for members we just need a quick, short two-minute private meeting to deal with some issuing of a notification that we just need to be in session for to make happen. So, with that said, just a brief suspension and to resume in two minutes for a two-minute meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee went into private session at 1.34 p.m., suspended at 1.36 p.m. and resumed in public session at 2.40 p.m.

Department of Finance - Mr. David Doyle

So I now propose that the committee of inquiry goes back into public session, is that agreed? Agreed. And doing so, we'll move on with session 2 of today's hearings with Mr. David Doyle, former Secretary General, Department of Finance. The Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis is now resuming in public session and can I ask members and those in the public Gallery to ensure that their mobile devices are switched off. Today, we continue our hearings with senior officials from the Department of Finance who had key roles during the crisis period. At our first session this afternoon, we will hear from Mr. David Doyle, former Secretary General, Department of Finance. David Doyle joined the Department of Finance in 1975. He was second secretary in the public expenditure division from early 2001 to June 2006, when he succeeded Tom Considine as Secretary General. He retired in January 2010.

Mr. Doyle, you are very welcome before the committee this afternoon. Before hearing from the witness, I wish to advise the witness that by virtue of Section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If you are directed by the Chairman to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to do so, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with this subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. I would remind members and those present that there are currently criminal proceedings ongoing and further criminal proceedings are scheduled during the lifetime of the inquiry which overlap with the subject matter of the inquiry. Therefore, the utmost caution should be taken not to prejudice those proceedings. Members of the public are reminded that photography is prohibited in the committee room. To assist the smooth running of the inquiry, we will display certain documents on the screens here in the committee room. For those sitting in the Gallery, these documents will be displayed on the screen to your left and right. Members of the public and journalists are reminded that these documents are confidential and they should not publish any of the documents so displayed.

The witness has been directed to attend this meeting of the Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis. You have been furnished with booklets of core documents. These are before the committee, will be relied upon in questioning and form part of the evidence of the inquiry. So with that said, if I can now ask the clerk to administer the oath of affirmation to Mr. Doyle, please.

The following witness was sworn in by the Clerk to the Committee:
Mr. David Doyle, former Secretary General, Department of Finance.

Thank you, Mr. Doyle, and if I can now invite you to make your opening remarks to the committee this afternoon, please.

Mr. David Doyle

Thank you, Chairman. Thank you for the opportunity to make these opening remarks to the committee. May I say that my objective at all times during the banking crisis and today has been and is now to serve the public interest. I will limit myself to comments on the guarantee, nationalisation, the ECB, Central Bank, regulator, while also dealing briefly with fiscal policy.

Fiscal policy in the decade up to 2008 should have been more conservative and the crisis was caused by a dramatic escalation in lending by the banks. The banks created the banking crisis but the Financial Regulator and others might have done more. The Department was concerned about the over-reliance on the property market as a component of economic growth and, of course, about pro-cyclical fiscal measures and Ireland's lost competitiveness. However, the Department did not anticipate the severity of the property crash and the international financial crisis. It accepted the consensus view of the Central Bank, the ESRI and others that the construction sector was facing a soft landing. At that time, it was generally thought that there would be a significant reduction in levels over a number of years and not a sudden crash. The Department was wrong to take, without challenge, the assessment of the Central Bank, the Financial Regulator and the banks' reassurance about the state of the financial sector. Such a reliance on consensus forecasts and the assessment of the Central Bank, the regulator and the banks was a mistake and I regret it. In the decade up to 2008, the demand from virtually all sides of the political and lobbying spectrum was for greater expenditure on more public services and for a reduction on taxation. The typical response to increased levels of spending in many quarters was that it wasn't big enough.

Before dealing with fiscal and taxation policy matters in more detail, I'll just run over quickly the guarantee decision itself and the decision to nationalise Anglo Irish Bank. You are all familiar with the fact that funds were flowing out of the country and that there was huge public concern about the safety of savings, which led to the introduction of the €100,000 guarantee. That assuaged the ordinary customers of banks but not the wholesale money market and larger depositors. Intensive discussions took place between the day of that decision around the middle of September and the end of the month about what further measures might need to be adopted. Matters came to a head on 29 September. The Minister had detailed advice from Merrill Lynch with the input from the Central Bank, the regulator and the NTMA also. Merrill's document, that was considered on the night of the guarantee, was that you could not ... they recommended you should not allow any Irish bank to fail because of the state of the market and the impact of that would be so damaging. They went through a number of options, liquidity provision, taking Anglo and Nationwide into protective custody, consolidate some of the banks and introduce a guarantee. Their conclusion was:

Even if the situation stabilises the immediate outlook for monoline single asset ... lenders is increasingly uncertain. In this context it is important for the Government to act quickly and decisively to step in and prevent a systemic problem.

Turning to the guarantee night, on the night of the guarantee, the Financial Regulator was of the view that while Anglo was illiquid, it was profitable and solvent. All of the banks were suffering from liquidity pressures but Anglo had no access to liquidity and was facing imminent collapse. The question of emergency liquidity assistance was considered for Anglo that night and stand-by arrangements were put in place for it. But there was a major concern that if word got out into the market that ELA had been put in place, that this would have leaked, inevitably it would have leaked, and lead to the sort of consequence that you had with Northern Rock which has, if you recall, the BBC running the story, ELA had been extended, massive queues outside their branches, including in Ireland, and a decision then to guarantee their deposits and ultimately nationalise it. On the night, concern about the sustainability of Anglo and Nationwide models were heightened. The two major banks, AIB and Bank of Ireland, emphasised those concerns and argued that they should be addressed by nationalisation, which should also be accompanied by a guarantee for all banks. The regulator continued to assure the Government on the night that all the banks were solvent. Nationalisation of the organisations was considered on the night of the guarantee. The case for nationalisation was that the business models were regarded by the major banks and indeed, by the Department and the NTMA as suspect.

There was a real concern that there could be a serious problem with their loan books, regardless of what the boards of management were saying.

An involuntary liquidation at that time of a bank would have created a real danger of a complete collapse in the banking system with all that would entail for the economy as a whole. An orderly nationalisation, given the conditions at that point, would have taken over all the assets and liabilities, as occurred in January 2009. The reservations that night about nationalisation centred around a number of key questions. The first was whether nationalisation was warranted. There were concerns about the business model but no quantified evidence had been produced which showed insolvency. There was some theoretical stress testing but no bottom-up examination of the loan books had been carried out.

On a second question, whether nationalisation could be undertaken without having a domino effect, one view was that nationalisation might lead to the undermining of the other banks even with a full guarantee. This is because it could give rise to the idea well if Anglo was that bad, the others could be equally exposed. So in that case, the guarantee might not have been convincing from day one and might have failed.

On the third question, whether nationalisation would avoid the need for a guarantee, the view was that, nationalisation or not, a guarantee would have to be given to save the banking system and in strong conditionality terms. On a fourth question, whether the ECB would allow a bank failure, the view of the ECB as quoted to the meeting by the Governor on the night was that Mr. Trichet had advised him that no bank failure could be allowed, or words to that effect. On this point, the domestic and international market turmoil at that stage was such that this view was shared by all concerned at ministerial, Central Bank and Department of Finance official level. Nationalisation would not, of course, have been a bank failure as such, but it might have been regarded in the panicked market conditions as tantamount to a failure, and indicative of greater dangers.

Throughout the night of the guarantee the pros and cons of (a) nationalising Anglo and having a guarantee, or (b) having a guarantee, were debated several times and late into the night. The two main contending viewpoints in the debate were: there was a strong case for immediate nationalisation; and the nationalisation at that point could lead to an undermining of the banks and the guarantee. Whatever about those contending viewpoints, the simple fact was that if emergency measures were not taken that night to address the problems created by the banks, there was a very real danger of a collapse in the domestic banking industry, not just in Anglo but quickly in the rest of the banks, through a widespread loss of confidence.

The damage to individual depositors, large and small, both personal and business would have been extreme. The potential reputational damage would have undermined consumer business confidence, domestic and international investment, existing and future. A collapse in the banking industry would have led to Ireland's sovereign borrowing reputation and capacity being irretrievably damaged. A collapse on this front, combined with impacts on revenue, would have resulted in Government services and investment across the board being summarily cut or suspended. No one was prepared to countenance this. The Taoiseach and the Minister left the room for a private political discussion late in the night to review the debate. On their return, my recollection is that the Taoiseach said they had decided to recommend a guarantee to the Cabinet and that Anglo would not be nationalised for the present. The Minister did not in decree, indicate any disagreement on this approach.

Turning to nationalisation of Anglo in January of 2009, very quickly after the guarantee, there were a series of meetings with Anglo which didn’t generate a lot of confidence given their business model, one aspect of which was they paid more for deposits and charged more for loans. They very assertively stressed their profitability, their liquidity and their positive future but it was received with some scepticism. A report by PwC after the guarantee pointed to end September transactions with another bank and this raised serious questions. That matter was referred immediately to the Financial Regulator. Subsequently, further corporate governance issues regarding directors' loans and the nature of certain other loans also raised serious concerns.

It also became clear over the following months that new or existing shareholders were not going to emerge and a "white knight" who some people were expecting to emerge, wasn’t going to emerge either. The banks, the domestic banks had enough of their own problems to address without getting involved in Anglo. All of that undermined confidence, despite the appointment in December of 2008 of a new chairman and public interest directors. The loss of confidence culminated in early 2009 and led the Government to decide the close control of the bank had to be taken to ensure confidence in the banking system for the same reasons I referred to earlier, that a bank closure had to be avoided. That decision was taken after consultation with both the Central Bank and the regulator.

Turning briefly to the ECB. The ECB is an independent body and it pursues its treaty-mandated primary role which is the maintenance of price stability through interest rate policy, and that policy takes account of the average conditions across the eurozone, not in individual countries. Credit growth in Ireland to households and non-financial businesses in the ten years 1998-2008 increased by an average of nearly 20% each year. Interest rate policy over much of the early 2000 period operated to boost borrowing and lending in the Irish context. Those low rates encourage inappropriate lending by the banks.

The Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union states that the European system of central banks, which consists of the ECB and the national central banks of all member states, "shall contribute to the smooth conduct of policies pursued by the competent authorities relating to the prudential supervision of credit institutions and the stability of the financial system". The ECB, as you know, is completely independent of Governments and so is the governor. It’s a matter for the Central Bank to say whether the ECB ever advised the Irish Central Bank and any others experiencing excessive growth rates that specific measures needed to be taken to curb this. My view is that they should have.

Turning to the Central Bank. When the Central Bank was being amended following the Government decision in 2001 on financial regulation, there was express powers included in the legislation to give authority to the Governor and the board to issue guidelines to the regulator. I might just read that out:

'Either [the Government] the Governor or the Board may, with respect to the functions of the Governor or the Board, issue to the Regulatory Authority guidelines as to the policies and principles that the Authority is required to implement in performing functions, or exercising powers of the Bank ... The Regulatory Authority is required to comply with guidelines issued to it under this section.

The financial stability analysis produced by the Central Bank in 2006 and 2007 suggested that while concerns were heightened about escalating house prices and associated banking exposures, this would not lead to any insolvency issues. The Central Bank placed undue reliance on their reports of the banks and assessment of the regulator in arriving at this conclusion. That was a mistake. The regulatory regime also imposed ... the legislation also imposed obligations on the regulator in relation to financial stability. It provided that if a matter relating to the financial stability of the State’s financial system arises in the connection with the performance or exercises by the regulatory authority of its functions, that authority shall consult the Governor. It goes on to say then if that arises, they may give a report to the Minister. The Department has told me there was no ... they could find no record of such a report. I do recall the financial sector having deep concerns about the credit union sector.

The combination of the express authority given to the Central Bank, together with the requirement on the Financial Regulator to put any financial stability issue to the Central Bank, and the fact that there was some common membership of the board did provide for an effective corporate governance structure if properly operated. While somewhat cumbersome, it was an appropriate regime. I'll just mention briefly an IMF report into the regulatory system in 2006 more or less gave it a clap on the back and said it was amongst best practice and that they had ... conclusion was that the results of stress tests undertaken through the Central Bank and the regulator and the major lending institutions confirm that the major domestic lending institutions have adequate capital buffers to cover a range of large but plausible hypothetical shocks. The Financial Regulator operated a principles-based regulatory system, which obviously took at face value the assessment of the banks and did not exercise independent judgment on their exposures and the quality of their loan books. This, too, was a mistake.

Turning to fiscal policy, in the decade up to 2008, Government programmes, combined with the pressures ensuing from social partnership, as well as the need to address both infrastructural deficits and demographic pressures on various sectors, drove expectations of public expenditure higher. The outcome was that from 1998 to 2008, total Government current and capital spending, excluding the Central Fund, increased from €20 billion to about €60 billion. Total current spending increased from €18 billion in 1997 to €53 billion by 2008, an average increase of 11%. That was clearly an excessive increase. The Department did recommend a much tighter control of current spending. Total capital spending increased from over €2 billion in 1997 to €9 billion in 2008, an average increase of 15%. A good deal of this increase was supported by the Department, as it felt that major infrastructural deficits such as our core interurban transport corridors - motorways - had to be tackled before demographic pressures crowded out investment. In general, prior to 2008, and as result of the pressures exerted by the social partners, individual Ministers and the Cabinet, the annual budget day packages ended up significantly higher than those recommended in the budget strategy memoranda put forward by the Ministers for Finance. The fact that revenues were buoyant in that period added to expectations.

Taxation, just to touch briefly on that, Chairman, the reduction in the top tax rate from 48% in '98, to 41% by 2006 increased disposable incomes significantly and that added to the appetite for fixed assets. The pressure from all sides were for less taxation over that period and, as I noted earlier, for more public services. Tax incentive generally in relation to housing and the incentives for commercial development did contribute to pressures in the construction sector. Other factors driving activity were reduced interest rates, the availability of loans and easier terms and the expectations that investing in property was always going to be a winning formula. Loose and unco-ordinated planning development controls contributed to the problem. On foot of recommendations from the Department of Finance, the Minister for Finance progressively moved from 2005 onwards to reduce and terminate tax incentives associated with building and tax minimisation by high earners.

Uncontrolled lending: the accepted analysis after the establishment of the ECB and the transfer of monetary policy from Irish Central Bank was that the only tool available to Government to control economic activity in the economy was through taxes and spending. The Department of Finance placed too much store on this conclusion. Greater consideration should have been given to the impact of uncontrolled lending. The Department should have adopted a more critical stance on monetary and regulatory matters in the decade ending in 2008. As Secretary General between July 2006 and January 2010 I was an ex officio member of the board of the bank but not of the regulator. I do not recall any proposals being advanced by the management teams of either the Central Bank or the regulatory side on foot of any identified imminent threat to financial stability or to the solvency of any particular institution.

As I said earlier, the analysis that was done was insufficiently critical of the realities behind the financial reporting of the banks. Some of the factors involved in pushing growth in the economy over the decade ending in 2008 include increased wages and changes in Government spending and taxation. However, increased bank lending was by far the biggest factor. The average annual increase in spending already touched on was about €10 billion - sorry - €4 billion a year, average of about 10% a year. The tax package cost about €1 billion a year, increased costs of wages and salaries in the economy, all adding fuel to what was going on, was about €6.5 billion. Unit labour costs in the economy increased by more than 55% in Ireland between 1997 and 2008, remained static in Germany and increased by 26% in the USA and 36% in the UK. The average increase in lending to individuals and non-financial business was almost €25 billion per annum or an annual average of more than 20%. The total increased from €40 billion in 1997 to over €300 billion in 2008. The reality is that it was this huge increase in lending that drove excesses in the property market. A more moderate approach to spending and taxation would have been better. Even with such moderation in spending and taxation, the uncontrolled explosion in credit by the banks would still have created much of the problem which crystallised in 2008.

I might conclude, Chairman, the guarantee decided in September 2008 was essential to avoid a complete collapse of the banking system and the economy. Ultimately, Anglo Irish Bank had to be nationalised in January 2009 to stop it collapsing and triggering a wider banking failure. The ECB set interest rates at a level that it judged appropriate to the whole of the euro area. The question of ensuring that credit growth was appropriate to the particular conditions in each euro country was left to the domestic central banks. Measures to control credit should have been taken. The Central Bank placed undue reliance on the regulator's assessment of the financial reports of the banks - that was a mistake. The regulator took the report of the banks at face value and did not subject their loan books to any meaningful scrutiny - that was a mistake. The Department of Finance was wrong to rely on consensus forecasts for a soft landing. It was also wrong to take at face value the assessment of both the Central Bank and the regulator of the state of the financial sector. I regret this. Fiscal policy in the period 1998 to 2008 was pro-cyclical. The pressure for more spending and less taxation came from all sides. The average increase in lending by the banks to individuals and non-financial business, in the period 1998 to 2008, was €25 billion per annum. That is what really caused the banking crisis. Thank you Chairman.

Thank you very much, Mr. Doyle, for your opening statement. Just one question before I bring in Deputy O'Donnell. At any time from 2006 onwards, when you became the general secretary, did you ... under your tenure as Secretary General at the Department of Finance, carry out any in-house examination of the theory that there would be a soft landing? Not external reviews of other material, was there any examination carried out by the Department of Finance to examine the possibility that there would be a soft landing?

Mr. David Doyle

I don't recall such an examination, Chairman. As I said in my statement, the Department placed its reliance on the consensus forecasts, including forecasts from the Central Bank, the ESRI, which all spoke about a gradual reduction to a more sustainable level, which was assumed at the time to be about 50,000 houses a year.

Which were all external assessments but not one done by the Department of Finance?

Mr. David Doyle

Not to my knowledge now but I am not putting my hand on my heart and saying that nobody in the Department did that. I think you are going to be meeting some of the people that were involved in the economic side but I can't recall one major-----

Okay, thank you very much. Deputy Kieran O'Donnell you have 25 minutes.

Thanks, Chairman. Welcome, Mr. Doyle. Mr. Doyle, I want to, Chairman, make reference to document Vol. 2, page 27, and also the Department of Finance, Vol. 2, page 114.

-----up first?

We'll get the ... one up first, yes?

Mr. David Doyle

Sorry, Chairman, ... or, Deputy, what's the Department of Finance document that you're referring to?

Department of Finance document is a document from Merrill Lynch ... memorandum from Merrill Lynch, Sunday 28 September.

It'll be on your screen there, Mr. Doyle, rather than going through the books.

They're related, Mr.-----

Mr. David Doyle

Which volume is that in, Deputy?

Mr. David Doyle

Which volume is that in?

That's on ... Vol. 2, Department of Finance. They're both Vol. 2, one Department of Finance, page 114, and one Vol. 2, David Doyle, yourself, page 27. And the question, I suppose, I have, Mr. Doyle, is, when you've got it-----

Mr. David Doyle

Yes.

You've made reference to everyone else stating that the banks were solvent on the night. Do you believe, based on ... do you believe that the banks were solvent on the night of the guarantee? And, more particularly, I want to draw reference to a ... a memorandum from the 25th, page 27, where you say "D Doyle noted that Government would need a good idea of the potential loss exposures within Anglo and [Irish Nationwide Building Society] - on some assumptions [Irish Nationwide Building Society] would be 2bn after capital and Anglo could be [€8.5, obviously, billion]." And I'm referencing that back to the Department of Finance document from Merrill Lynch, where Merrill Lynch states in their document that, and I quote, "However [this is about Irish Nationwide] there are concerns over the influence of the Chief ... In the extreme stress case analysis the total writeoffs including loss of interest income would ... [would] just deplete most of [Irish Nationwide] reserves of €1.8 billion."- which is really very close to the €2 billion you speak about ... Irish Nationwide Building Society - and, secondly, about Anglo Irish "If one [were] to apply [Irish Nationwide] stress case scenario the writeoffs would deplete ordinary shareholders and other lower category subordinated debt of €7.5 billion". The overall capital that Anglo had at the time was just over €9 billion. So, based on what I read there and your own pronouncements in ... on the ... the memo of 25 September, did you believe Anglo and Irish Nationwide Building Society were solvent on the night of the guarantee?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, first of all I think that that meeting was the 24th. It's ... it's ... 25th is written on it, I believe.

Mr. David Doyle

Secondly, in relation to the note on the fifth paragraph - D. Doyle note and so on - the question posed sounds like me. All right, the question. But I wasn't in the habit of answering my own questions.

Mr. David Doyle

So, I-----

Allow the witness respond to this question.

Mr. David Doyle

I'll just finish it now.

Mr. David Doyle

When I first saw that note appearing in ... I think it was the year after I retired, I ... I was ... I didn't accept that I had actually given the information that's included in the second bit of that. And, since ... since it was included in the ... in the documentation, I have racked my brains to try and remember did I say that and I'm convinced I didn't. And, in fact, I am saying I didn't give that information. I asked another party that was at that meeting from PricewaterhouseCoopers, did I in fact give that information in response to my own question, and he said "No". My understanding from him is that it was probably the people from the NTMA that were at the meeting.

That posed that question?

Mr. David Doyle

Yes, that posed that question. No, no, I'm saying I probably did pose the question. But I didn't answer my own question. There was a contribution from-----

What question would you have posed, do you believe?

Mr. David Doyle

No, I ... the question's fine. The question's fine. The Government would need to have a ... a clear idea of the potential exposures.

Mr. David Doyle

The answer ... the answer that was given by somebody else, I ... I can't give you an explanation as to what their ... what their-----

Mr. David Doyle

Well, I could try and help you on it. I believe that, in the manuscript notes which this comes out of, the next statement that was made by Merrill Lynch was that these were top-of-the finger assessments. Now, at that point you are ... in terms of a stress test, this wasn't a detailed analytical stress test that we're talking about here. It was, "Here's a loan book, €70 billion. If the potential losses are 5%, 10%, 20%, 30%, what does that show?" It's not based on any rigorous examination of the loan book. A real test ... stress test that you would get in a due diligence situation would be to get in and do a bottom-up examination of the loan book - look at the collateral, look at the cross-guarantees, the wealth of the individuals - and come up with an analysis. But, as I said, this is ... this is a-----

Mr. Doyle, you would have read the Merrill Lynch document that I've quoted from, which ... with the memorandum-----

Mr. David Doyle

Yes.

Mr. David Doyle

Well, I ... I'll come on to that, Deputy. As I said, for a start, it wasn't a D. Doyle answer to my question but obviously on the night there ... there was some speculation done on ... on the basis of the theoretical stress tests I'm talking about. Apropos of Merrill Lynch document, what ... what they ... what they did say was ... what size ... page number is that again, Deputy?

Mr. David Doyle

114, yes. "In [an] extreme stress case analysis the total writeoffs ... would just deplete most of INBS reserves of €1.8 billion." Now, the other document talks about "on some assumptions INBS could be 2bn after capital". Now that ... after capital is their reserves are wiped out and another €2 billion is required. So-----

Yes, but, sure, Merrill Lynch was saying that as well.

Mr. David Doyle

No, they're not saying that. I'm sorry-----

Merrill Lynch are saying that'd wipe out all the reserves.

Mr. David Doyle

Yes, but they're not saying "and another €2 billion in capital is required".

Mr. David Doyle

Yes. And similarly then, on Anglo, they're saying if you apply the same stress test, that you will be ... the €7.5 billion, which was the bulk of their capital, would be ... would be wiped out.

Well then, taking-----

Mr. David Doyle

It's not saying "and another €8.5 billion would be required".

Well, then, taking all factors into account - obviously the limited time - do you believe Anglo and Irish Nationwide were solvent on the night?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, on the basis of ... of what the regulator was saying, that they were solvent, on the basis of what-----

What did you think on the night? You were general secretary of the Department of Finance at the time.

Mr. David Doyle

Well, I might just finish. At the top of page 114 you have a statement from Merrill Lynch, "It is important to stress that at present, liquidity concerns aside; all of the Irish banks are profitable and well capitalised." Now, in the case of Anglo, that night they had run out of liquidity. And a bank that runs out of liquidity is on borrowed time. If it can't meet its obligations, that will become known very fast. Liquidity, being the available ... cash available to it, would simply disappear. People would start pulling out funds and, very rapidly, an illiquid bank becomes an insolvent bank. So, what I definitely felt ... that if their lack of liquidity continued, they would rapidly become insolvent. Now, if ... if ... there was certainly a concern about the ... the business model and-----

You have given, I suppose ... I want to get through a couple of areas Mr. Doyle and you've given, your basic point is you're saying that you had serious concerns about the solvency of Anglo and Irish Nationwide in terms of the way the liquidity was-----

Mr. David Doyle

I had clear concerns. I had serious concerns that their liquidity had disappeared and if that continued, they would rapidly become insolvent. Just if I might, finally, Deputy, point out that after the guarantee, PwC were sent in to do a range of analyses on the banks and I think in the case of Anglo, certainly in the case of Anglo and I think also probably Nationwide, they applied stress tests of varying degrees of write-offs and I don't think in any of those write-offs they come out and said they're insolvent. Finally if I might just point out that-----

You'd appreciate I want to cover a number of areas Mr. Doyle and I appreciate you want to-----

Mr. David Doyle

Yes, but I think it is a salient point. The interim results that were produced by the bank on 2 December did not show an insoluble position.

Okay. In terms of your role as general secretary of the Department, what advice did you give to the Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach leading up to the blanket guarantee being put in place? What advice did you give to them that you felt should be put in place in terms of the guarantee?

Mr. David Doyle

In terms of the guarantee. Well I-----

Include the options in that as well, Mr. Doyle.

Mr. David Doyle

Yes, well the options that were all there in relation to the presentation by Merrill Lynch were discussed with the Taoiseach and the Minister. The first and overwhelming view that we did give them, which tied in with the view of the Central Bank, the regulator and the European Central Bank, that you could not have ... let a financial institution fail. Because of the complete collapse in confidence that would ensue, on top of the collapse in confidence that had already occurred in Ireland and internationally because we were dealing with a context of an international financial meltdown. I am not saying that that caused our problem.

Did you consider the nationalisation of Anglo and Irish Nationwide in terms of the options you put to Government?

Mr. David Doyle

Yes, that was considered on the night. It was considered part of the suite of-----

And what was your view on that Mr. Doyle?

Mr. David Doyle

My view was that there was on the one hand a strong case for doubting the business model but I could see the reservations that there were at that particular moment in time.

What was your own personal view that you gave to Government?

Mr. David Doyle

I'm giving it to you now. I could see the reservations that if you did immediately nationalise, the potential was there for ... to undermine the rest of the banks. Nationwide or Anglo Irish was significantly exposed to commercial property, as was Nationwide. So too were AIB and Bank of Ireland but not to the same extent. And that ... the view that you could undermine the guarantee had to be taken seriously. That was the view of the Governor and the chairman of the Financial Regulator.

So, when it came down to it Mr. Doyle, what was your bottom-line view to Government?

Mr. David Doyle

My bottom-line view was that, in light of the various considerations that the guarantee was a measure that had to be taken place, in the context of being the first stage in addressing the problems in the financial industry.

You agreed then, with the blanket guarantee?

Mr. David Doyle

I wasn't happy about it. We hadn't been happy about it right over the course of that year, but by the time the end of September arrived, the international meltdown was such that I didn't really see a practical alternative. I could see the arguments for a nationalisation but-----

We have Mr. Kevin Cardiff's statement, which we have received. He has to say, as yourself, that the Taoiseach and Minister for Finance left the room at some point. You might just explain when they left the room? And you added into your own statement that the Minister for Finance, when both the Taoiseach and the Minister came out and said they are going with the blanket guarantee, he did not in any way show any disagreement. Yet, we have Mr. Cardiff saying:

the Minister [for Finance] told me some time later that during a pause in the meeting, when he and the Taoiseach had left the room to speak privately, he agreed with the Taoiseach to follow the broad guarantee approach. He did not use the word 'overruled' but rather indicated he thought it important that he and the Taoiseach presented a common political position.

Now, what view did the Minister for Finance express to you in terms of his view on the nationalisation of Anglo and Irish Nationwide?

Mr. David Doyle

Are we dealing with before they left the room or after it?

Mr. David Doyle

Both, well okay. Before they left the room, the Minister and Mr. Cardiff were very strongly of the view that Anglo in particular should be nationalised.

Mr. David Doyle

I didn't disagree at that time. I wanted to see what ... how the argument would unfold and how the debate would unfold. The reservations about that approach that I touched on in my opening statement were that it could undermine the guarantee and call into question the need to have further nationalisations. We now know what happened since but ... so that particular argument, Anglo business case very doubtful, there's an exposed property market, the need to be nationalised and take out versus the other one.

You had the Minister for Finance and Mr. Cardiff in favour of nationalisation of Anglo and Irish Nationwide and after the meeting-----

Mr. David Doyle

Well, I am not finished, if I may, on the Minister's perspective. That was the argument at the outset of his intervention. When he listened to the reservations about what nationalisation could imply for the credibility of the guarantee and the rest of the banks, he changed his mind and he accepted that-----

But was the decision changed? The decision to go with a blanket guarantee, did that arise out of the meeting between the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance when they stepped out to have a private meeting?

Mr. David Doyle

I just might continue, if I may, seeing as how this is an important issue, the debate went on. Nationalisation could be a problem. The Minister would have said "Yes, I accept that view, I have listened to the views of the Central Bank and the regulator, they don't think there should be nationalisation at this point." The meeting would then go on several times over the course of the night. The Minister went back to the same issue and the same debate took place quite a number of times over the course of the night. So there was a continual concern. Each occasion, the pros and cons of each would be discussed and it appeared that the Minister was acquiescing. What he was really ... position ... he was not saying "I remain convinced that Anglo should be nationalised." At some stage during the course of the night - you asked me when, I actually can't recall what time, it was quite late anyway - the Taoiseach nudged the Minister and said "Come on, let's go out and have a chat." So they went out and had a chat. I don't know how long that lasted. I can't recall. It certainly was not five minutes or ten minutes, could have been longer.

It was an a.m. meeting rather than a p.m. meeting was it?

Mr. David Doyle

I could not swear on that Deputy.

Very late anyway.

Mr. David Doyle

Very late. Eventually the Taoiseach came back in and said that they had decided to recommend to the Cabinet a guarantee and that Anglo was not being nationalised. I am pretty certain he said "for the moment".

Mr. David Doyle

And the Minister-----

Did you have any subsequent discussion with the Minister on this matter?

Mr. David Doyle

No. No, I never had that discussion-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----that Mr. Cardiff refers to. No, about the decision.

Mr. David Doyle

No.

Not with the Minister, no.

Mr. David Doyle

No.

Can I just move on-----

You have five minutes, Deputy.

Yes, I appreciate that, thanks, Chairman. The ... also on the night of the guarantee, we've had the banks in before us, who've stated they did not bring the broad outline of a guarantee to the meeting on the night ... on that fateful night on 30 September, on the night of the guarantee. Kevin Cardiff has stated in his statement that they explicitly sought a very broad guarantee and provided a suggested wording. Did the banks, on the night of the guarantee, bring a formula, a wording, for a guarantee?

Mr. David Doyle

My recollection is they sought the broad guarantee and the nationalisation. I don't recall myself seeing a draft of the guarantee statement. I certainly saw one coming up from the Central Bank.

Did you see one coming from the banks?

Mr. David Doyle

Personally I can't recall one.

But they gave a verbal that they wanted a broad guarantee?

Mr. David Doyle

They wanted a broad guarantee.

With Anglo and Irish Nationwide nationalised?

Mr. David Doyle

Yes.

Can I ... on ... can I go to document ... Vol. 2, page 111, Department of Finance, Chairman, and it's the bullet point for Cabinet, 28 September '08, it's a handwritten note: "As of 9 a.m., ... the"-----

Mr. David Doyle

Sorry, Deputy-----

Mr. David Doyle

What's the date on that? The date on the volume?

28 September ... it's Vol. 2, Department of Finance, page 111 ... it's a handwritten note from your good self.

Mr. David Doyle

Yes, Deputy.

Yes:

Minister from D. Doyle

Above summarises position on financial markets.

As of 9 a.m. today the Governor has not heard from Trichet.

Now, what was your understanding of the communications between the Governor of the Central Bank, John Hurley, and the ECB officials in the period that led to the guarantee, the bank guarantee being put in place?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, first of all, I will just explain that that note would have gone over to a Cabinet meeting which was considering the budget, which was the other crisis that was in train at the time.

I presume the bank guarantee was of a top ... higher priority on the night?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, this was on the morning of 28 September.

Mr. David Doyle

It was ... the banking situation was critical and so was the budget, but I'm just making that point. That was the context. They were meeting-----

So, when you-----

Mr. David Doyle

So, in relation to the question that you asked, what was the relationship between John Hurley and the ECB-----

And what was your understanding of communications coming up to the guarantee with the ECB?

Mr. David Doyle

My understanding was that the Governor was in close contact ... now, he had been out sick with a serious illness, came back around the middle of September.

I think around the 19th.

Mr. David Doyle

My understanding is from then on he was in close contact with the European Central Bank in relation to unfolding events. You had Lehman's etc., etc., etc., and that weekend, because of the unfolding pressures, there was an expectation on our part that something could come from the ECB in terms of an intervention. And we were anxious to know was there going to be some intervention coming and, as I recall, Mr. Hurley was in contact with the ECB to establish whether something was ... would be coming, but, as to what he was told by the European Central Bank-----

What did Mr. Hurley tell you on the night of the guarantee he had been told by the central bank, by Jean-Claude Trichet, the ECB?

Mr. David Doyle

What he told ... what he told the meeting that night was that the ... Mr. Trichet said to him ... and I have included in my written statement my version of that. Just to be precise: "On the core question [whether the ECB would allow a bank failure] the view of the ECB as quoted to the meeting by the Governor on the night was that Mr. Trichet had advised him that no bank failure could be allowed, or words to that effect."

And looking back now, Mr. Doyle, would you have done anything different in terms of advice given to Government on ... leading up to the night of the guarantee in terms of the decisions that were taken?

Mr. David Doyle

Looking back now, there's an awful lot of things have happened since I retired, but, on the night, I think the Government were in an impossible position. They were on the horns of a dilemma. Action had to be taken. As various learned commentators have said, it was the least worst option on the night.

And do you think-----

Final question, Deputy.

Yes, final question. The ordinary person looking in, where they've ended up at a gross cost of €64 billion, do you think something could have been done differently in the periods ... the years leading up to cause the crisis, to ensure that it didn't happen?

Mr. David Doyle

Yes. Well, as I've said in my statement, steps to control excessive credit growth should have been taken. Now, that credit growth peaked in 2007 and was the same in 2008 as it was in 2007.

He'll explain.

Mr. David Doyle

Yes. Sorry?

I'll give you room to explain the steps.

Sorry, yes. Go on, yes. What steps should have been taken?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, as I said, credit should have been controlled. It averaged 20% a year for ten years and, what I'm saying, steps should have been taken over the period up to the build-up of that from 1998 to 2006-2007. If you have credit growing, as it was in some years by 30%, 35%, it would seem to me blatantly obvious that there should have been an intervention. Now, what should that intervention have been? If you listen to some people, they say they didn't have the authority. In my opinion, there was authority there.

Did you bring ... you were-----

Sorry, Deputy-----

-----you're out of question time. I'll bring you back in-----

Well, it's just the context, Chairman.

No, no, no.

He's a member of the board of the Central Bank.

I'm going to let ... sorry, Deputy, I'm going to let Mr. Doyle answer this question.

I'll bring you back in in the wrap-up because you'll have other time, and then I'll bring in Deputy McGrath. Mr. Doyle, please complete the question and then we'll move on.

Mr. David Doyle

Yes, steps should have been taken to curb the credit growth. The regulator should have stepped in and said to each, individual bank, "You're lending too much. It needs to be cut back." They should have gone to the Central Bank and looked at the whole big picture and said, "We're building up too much credit" and there should have been an intervention. Now, the Central Bank had force majeure authority in relation to the regulator to issue directions which they had to observe. That should have been done, directing the regulator to make sure that credit would only grow by whatever rate was appropriate to the economy. It wouldn't have just been ... the whole picture is not just credit, but it's largely credit, as I said in my opening statement. The pro-cyclicality of expenditure and taxation added somewhat to the issue, but it wasn't the major component. The major component was the excessive lending. If ... if ... if the banks weren't complying with directions from the regulator to curb credit, well then it would have ... should have been a matter for the Central Bank to step in and bring in the chairman and chief executives, lay it on the line, and if they didn't accept that credit was going to be curbed, then you'd make a public policy intervention. If the Central Bank felt that, for some reason, they had inadequate authority or powers, they could have presented suggestions to the Minister for Finance to get additional powers. I don't believe they were necessary. To touch on the question that you were ... on the latter part of your question in relation to the ... to my arrival on the board of the bank in 2006, I think Governor Honohan, when he was here, said that the problem in the banking system was created in 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2005 and that if you came up with a bright idea in 2006 to address the problem, it was too late.

Okay, thank you. Just before I bring in Deputy McGrath, can I just ask you one question, Mr. Doyle, and that is, was there any prepared documentation or draft Bill or draft legislation in the building on the night of the guarantee that was proposing or suggesting the nationalisation of a financial institution?

Mr. David Doyle

There were drafts of legislation that had been prepared by the Department with the agreement of the Minister, with the input from the Attorney General, not physically in that building but they were in the Department of Finance across the square. There was a team ready on the night to finalise a Bill for nationalisation of ... there would be different versions, for a bank, a building society, and there was stand-by arrangements for a bank guarantee also. So that legislation was on stock waiting for political direction.

So, because we've had heard discussions that there was some legislation prepared earlier in the year, we want to ensure what that's for. Are you saying this evening, that once the meetings were taking place around the guarantee, that somewhere here in Dublin, there was a draft of a Bill to nationalise a bank if a decision was made in the room that night potentially to nationalise the bank, specifically for those discussions - not something that was earlier drafted, not relevant to those discussions?

Mr. David Doyle

No, though the legislation had been drafted over the course of the year and it had very advanced stage by the night of the 29th.

Okay. And on the night of the guarantee, was that legislation ... were ... was the Minister for Finance or the Taoiseach or yourselves, cognisant of that draft Bill? Was it specific to the discussions that was taking place and at any time during the night was it discussed that there was, that there was legislation that could enable the nationalisation of a financial institution?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, the Minister was inextricably involved in the work on drafting the legislation with the Attorney General and he was totally aware of the work that had been done and the stand-by team that was there, ready to turn it into a final product.

Okay. Anglo was subsequently nationalised in the following January or in and around that period. The Bill to nationalise Anglo in or around that January, was that similar or more or less the same Bill that was in waiting or available on the night of the guarantee?

Mr. David Doyle

I couldn't swear it was identical. It was the principle features and the provisions that were in the September draft were utilised in January so that when the Government made the decision, the Bill was very quickly produced.

Mr. David Doyle

There was a lot of the issues that were considered in September had to be incorporated in that Bill.

So, very final question on that. Was there legislation available and prepared enough that could have advanced the nationalisation of Anglo or another financial institution on the night of the guarantee?

Mr. David Doyle

It was at an advanced stage and it could have been turned around, with the input of the parliamentary draftsmen and the Attorney, within a very short period.

Okay. And was it discussed in the discussions over the course of the evening that that was available?

Mr. David Doyle

Well everyone knew that, whatever decision was made, legislation was required.

Okay. Thank you-----

Mr. David Doyle

So-----

-----Deputy McGrath.

Thanks Chair. Mr. Doyle, you're very welcome. Can I just continue along the theme that the Chairperson opened up there. You have confirmed that draft legislation to nationalise a bank was prepared and similarly to issue a guarantee. Was there special resolution legislation prepared, which would have enabled the Government to take a bank into State custody, as such, to separate the deposits from the bondholders and to execute an orderly wind-down of a bank, involving the bail-in of bondholders?

Mr. David Doyle

Not, not ... I'm not aware that there was, Deputy. I do know that over the course of a year, and I wasn't dealing with this hands on myself, there was a small team dealing with it. I did know that, in the context of moving on any particular organisation, there were all sorts of legal issues, some of them relating to constitutional issues in relation to the rights of shareholders, if the State was to step in and how you would deal with them. So at that particular point in time, there was no special resolution legislation ready.

Mr. David Doyle

And in relation to the question of dealing with bondholders, the bondholder issue in terms of whether you would bail them in, it wasn't, it wasn't an issue that was on the agenda; it was deliberately put off the agenda. Dealing with bondholders, to get them to take a bath you're more or less getting into a liquidation situation. And the read at the time was that if you got into a liquidation situation, certainly an involuntary liquidation, where a deficit ... whoever was driving the liquidation saying there aren't enough assets here to discharge the liabilities, an involuntary liquidation would have been seen as a disaster for the rest of the industry. A voluntary liquidation, where the shareholders or the promoter of the liquidation was saying that all the assets will be realised and all the liabilities of that company would be discharged, that would be a totally different question of thing ... different question. But, bondholders being written off in that context couldn't arise in a voluntary liquidation.

Can I put it to you, Mr. Doyle, that as far back as January 2008, in a financial stability issues scoping paper, it looked at a number of different scenarios, including the scenario of an insolvent bank. It looked at the scenario of examinership for a bank, for example. And yet, are you telling me that at the end of September 2008, when the proverbial hit the fan, the Department did not have resolution legislation in place to deal with a situation where a bank was insolvent or where the Department felt that the bank should be put into some form of examinership, so that there could be a more detailed examination under the bonnet to check the proper underlying health of that bank?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, a lot changed between January and September 2008. The financial markets continued to melt down and then reached crisis point. The resolution mechanism that was available was the one that I outlined to the Chairman. An examinership of a company, an ordinary company, doesn't give rise to the same sort of an issues that does in relation to a bank. If you appoint an examiner to a bank, the first thing that happens is that a red card goes up around every money desk around Europe and the world, and no ... and funds are called and there's no fresh funds made available. So you instantly trigger a financial crisis with that institution. So an examinership wasn't judged, at that point, to be an appropriate approach. You must remember that throughout the year, all these financial institutions were producing annual reports saying they were making huge profits with their interim results and five-year declaring dividends. So, there was nobody saying we are going to have an actual crash.

In February of 2008, in a paper "Overview of Financial Stability Resolution Issues", 8 February 2008, its on Vol. 1, page 71, of your own booklet, David Doyle booklet. Page 81 in that presentation says - this was February 2008, over six months before the guarantee - "As a matter of public policy, to protect the interests of taxpayers any requirement to provide open-ended/legally binding State guarantees which would expose the Exchequer to the risk of very significant costs are not regarded as part of the toolkit for successful crisis management and resolution." And yet, six months later, the Department did not have in its toolkit the option, where it believed, if it did so believe, that a bank was in deep, deep trouble, to strip that bank down, to protect depositors to the extent of the deposit guarantee, to bail in bondholders and effectively conduct an orderly wind-down of that bank. Why not, is the question?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, it could ... it could have quickly produced that, I suspect, if ... if the policy decision had been made to-----

Had any steps been taken towards preparing resolution legislation prior to the end of September '08?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, I've already told you, I'm not aware that there was, what became common throughout Europe, a resolution suite of legislation prepared. You'll be meeting some of the people that dealt with this day-to-day, but what was ready was a suite of legislation to deal with the Government decisions that emerged.

Nationalisation or a guarantee?

Mr. David Doyle

In relation to that particular statement that you have there in that presentation - that State guarantees are not part of the toolkit - that was the view, that State guarantees should not be part of the toolkit. And right through ... like, the ... when people did their crisis exercises, my recollection is, from what I was told, is that the reaction of the central bankers, the regulators, was, "Well, based with this hypothetical crisis that you're looking at now, the Government will have step in with cash." That was their first reaction. Our reaction was that's not the first thing to do, it's to try and see can you resolve it on trade acquisition or trade sale or merger-disposal situation. Now, by the time September arrived, you had the international financial meltdown taking place; you had Bradford & Bingley being nationalised; you had German banks being nationalised; you had Lehman's being let go to the wall; so towards the end of that month, the view down in Dame Street was that the financial markets had become so crisis bound that, as a last resort, a guarantee would have to be considered. That was the view that started to emerge the week before this down in Dame Street, because of the huge flows of liquidity and what was going on internationally, that it would have to be considered.

So do you believe that the Department was as prepared as it could be at the end of September 2008 in putting before the decision-makers the options at their disposal to deal with the crisis?

Mr. David Doyle

Everyone could always be better prepared. What was ... what was prepared was to meet the political decisions that were arrived at. At the time-----

But you didn't know in advance ... you didn't know in advance-----

Mr. David Doyle

At the time-----

-----what the political decisions were going to be.

Mr. David Doyle

No.

So should you not have had the broadest possible set of options available to the decision-makers, that if they had decided that they wanted to let Anglo and Nationwide go, that that could have been done in an orderly fashion, protecting depositors in so far as possible, burning bondholders and limiting the impact on the rest of the system? That option wasn't there.

Mr. David Doyle

Well, the legislation could have been rapidly turned around, but the option wasn't there. The option wasn't there to burn the bondholders. You had crisis in the money markets; you had panic right across Europe; you had people in the domestic market extremely worried, money being withdrawn; you had the view being taken around Europe that bondholders could not be bailed in, that you couldn't have a bank failure, and that if you had a bank failure, this would cause a most extreme financial and economic crisis in Europe. But, as I said, if ... if the possibility had emerged that you would ... you would make an intervention where you would secure the depositors and have a deferential approach to bondholders, it could ... it could have been rapidly dealt with in the legislation. We had the most amazing Attorney General of all time when it came to drafting legislation, but you would have to consider yourself what would have happened if you had brought in a measure to wipe out bondholders. Now, I can't recall what proportion of the Anglo funds were bondholders. I don't think it was by any means the majority of their funds. But if you had said, "We're going to take on this particular institution, guarantee deposits under the deposit guarantee scheme up to €100k and everyone else will be burned proportionately", there would have been an instant meltdown in the rest of the banks in Ireland, possibly having a domino effect across Europe, given what had happened on Lehman's and the ... the knock-on effect in terms of the domino implications for the Government sovereign market would have been disastrous. The Exchequer would not have been able to go into the market. It did have ... had built up a big cash reserve at the time against the pressures that could emerge in the market. But once that was exhausted, you ... and funds had been withdrawn from it, well, you would have been in severe difficulties.

I think ... I think, Chairman, we're in the realm of speculation now as opposed to evidence and I'd like to stick to evidence.

Okay, and ... yes, and I would encourage that as well.

You said twice in your witness statement, Mr. Doyle, that Merrill Lynch, in their evidence ... or in their advice, stated it was "important to stress that at present, liquidity concerns aside, all of the Irish banks are profitable and well capitalised." That was their advice to Government, as such, at the end of September 2008, and you clearly placed some weight on it, because you've quoted it twice, but can I put it to you that, in arriving at that conclusion, what Merrill Lynch did was base it on some information and conversations they had with PwC as regards Anglo Irish Bank, with Goldman Sachs as regards Irish Nationwide, and with very limited verbal information from "the Ministry of Finance", as they put it, and IFSRA, the Financial Regulator - "We have not spoken to the management at any of the Irish banks." So, in arriving at that conclusion, Merrill Lynch had not gone into the banks, they hadn't assessed the records of the banks, the quality of the loans, the quality of the underlying collateral, and they hadn't even spoken to the management of the banks, not to mention ... not to mind, say, examine the underlying documentation. So was that not a rather flimsy basis for advice to Government which formed the basis of a very significant decision?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, to be fair to Merrill Lynch, they had only been in there for ... on the assignment for a couple of days. They were reviewing the published documentation in relation to the financial institutions, which were statutory declarations under company law in relation to their financial results. They wouldn't ... they wouldn't have got much information from the Department of Finance because the Department of Finance was not the regulator of the financial institutions, but the people in the regulatory regime were supposed to be the experts on the true state of the banks. So were they to ignore what the Financial Regulator was saying or take it for what it was worth? I'm sure they would have assumed that there was a robust regulatory regime there.

But do you now believe, Mr. Doyle, in truth, that those who had to make a decision on that night were in a position to base that decision on accurate and comprehensive information about the underlying health of the banks?

Mr. David Doyle

The information that they had from the regulatory system was that the banks were solvent. The information that they had from the financial organisations themselves, if you look at any of their reports or interim statements in 2008, they were all claiming they were making huge profits. If-----

We know what's in the public domain, Mr. Doyle.

Mr. David Doyle

If ... if ... if ... pardon?

We know what's in the public domain. All of that is in the public domain.

Mr. David Doyle

Yes. Yes.

I'm asking you, do-----

Mr. David Doyle

Yes, well-----

-----you believe now that those making the decision had access to accurate and comprehensive information about the underlying health of the banks? We know what information they had. We know what they were told by the regulator. We know what the annual accounts for the banks told them.

Mr. David Doyle

They had limited information. They didn't have the bottom-up analysis of the books of the banks that you would need. If you were in a full due diligence situation, you would know exactly what was underneath the loan book of any institution. The Government did not have that.

Can I ask you about the inclusion of subordinated debt, Mr. Doyle, in the guarantee, and if you can outline the reason as to why it was included? You might comment whether the ECB had any view on that issue.

And I believe you're familiar with the evidence, the witness statement from Mr. Kevin Cardiff, that that was circulated to you and he says in that witness statement, page 12 ... that there was a short discussion about the question of whether to include dated subordinated debt within the guarantee. "I was asked", he said, "whether that issue had been covered in any of the discussions with the Merrill Lynch team, and I reported that at the meeting of 26 September they had advocated - on balance - that dated subordinated debt would have the same protections as senior debt and so dated subordinated debt ... was included." Is that accurate to the best of your knowledge, that Merrill Lynch recommended the inclusions of dated subordinated debt?

Mr. David Doyle

To the best of my knowledge, and I think if you look at their document ... where they're dealing with the nationalisation ... recommendation ... if somebody tells me where that is ... their document, anyway, says that if you were to nationalise, you would also guarantee the depositors and the ... and the dated subordinated debt in that institution. So it came up in that context, and Kevin's recollection there, to the best of my knowledge is, is accurate. I did see some documentation, separately ... in relation to, to that question and ... I ... I don't ... I haven't seen any documentation produced by the committee but it's a minute after the event of the guarantee from the NTMA to Kevin and William Beausang. And it ... it said ... and I think this might have been written in the context of presenting a case to the European Commission as to why ... may I read that out, Chairman?

You can, indeed.

Mr. David Doyle

"I believe it is important to include dated subordinated debt under the guarantee"-----

Before you just commence can you tell who it's to and whose name is at the end of it, Mr. Doyle, please?

Mr. David Doyle

It's from Brendan McDonagh. It's dated 11 October and it's an e-mail to William Beausang and Kevin Cardiff, and people in the Attorney General's office-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----and various others.

This is your document and not a committee document yes?

It's not mine; it's a copy that I was given by the Department.

All right. It's probably not on our system, no.

Mr. David Doyle

It is not on the system. But I've no problem giving it over to you:

I believe it's important to include dated subordinated debt under the guarantee as the problems we are dealing with here were caused by the financial institutions having too great a mismatch between their assets and liability profiles to such an extent that they were funding long-term assets with too much reliance on short-term funding, be it commercial paper, interbank deposits and corporate deposits. Surely the objective of the guarantee of this dated subordinated debt from our point of view is to give the covered institutions the ability to access at least two-year term funding to reduce their reliance on short-term funding, thereby avoiding the liquidity squeeze. If any covered institution was to issue term debt with a maturity longer than two years, then the market would want to be compensated for that by an appropriate step up in the interest rate pricing. The investors in dated subordinated debt, while receiving a reasonable return commensurate with the risk, are not equity-type investors and invest on the basis that they expect their original principal to be returned at maturity whereas equity investors take the risk of losing their equity, but also with the very real possibility of receiving a multiple of their equity investment through dividend income and capital appreciation, in theory.

So that was the, that was the raison d'être I saw on the documentation after the event. The first time I, I recall seeing anything about it was in that Merrill Lynch document. And, as it turned out, a lot of that subordinated debt was taken out through liability management exercises.

Do you believe, Mr. Doyle, that the Central Bank and Financial Regulator had sufficient powers to take direct action against banks in the period 2003 to 2008? Do you think they had the powers?

Mr. David Doyle

Personally, I think so. And if there was any ... as I said earlier, if there was a deficit in it, there was very close liaison with the Department of Finance in terms of identifying an issue that needed amending legislation.

Mr. Doyle, Morgan Kelly published an article on a potential house price bubble in The Irish Times at the end of 2006, as you know, and later published a report on the same theme as part of the ESRI bulletin in summer 2007. Can you recall if any discussions were held ... at senior management level in the Department afterwards on either of those? And were Mr. Kelly's concerns given serious consideration?

Mr. David Doyle

I don't recall any discussion of the article. But what I ... I ... I have read the article and ... what he was, in fact ... with his conclusions ... it was interesting the conclusion that he reached. He said the expected ... if the average. He says:

a close relationship historically across different economies and housing markets between the size of increases in real house prices, and subsequent declines. If this relationship were to hold for Ireland, the expected fall in average real house prices is in the range of 40 to per cent, over a period of around 8 years. [So a soft landing]. Such a fall would return the ratio of house prices to rents to its level at the start of the decade.

Now he wasn't predicting a short ... a soft landing, he said that could happen but, equally, the opposite could happen. But he did go on to say "The Government did not cause the current boom, and is powerless to do anything about a subsequent bust" That's on page 15 of his article.

Thank you, Mr. Doyle. When Governor Honohan attended before this inquiry and he clarified some evidence subsequently in writing on the question of what should have been done with Anglo Irish Bank and Nationwide, he set out a hindsight scenario. And I want to put that to you ... and that hindsight scenario is on the basis that you now know the cost to the State of rescuing Anglo and Nationwide will be in the order of €35 billion. And in that hindsight scenario, his view is that although Anglo was systemically important at the time, the Government would have done better by not including those two banks in a guarantee. It could have advised the ECB and the European Commission that it intended to liquidate these banks, protecting only insured depositors. European officials would have been shocked, they might possibly have agreed to some risk-sharing arrangement to induce the Government to refrain from the bail-in and absent from such a risk-sharing agreement and notwithstanding the associated significant reputational damage, on balance, some bail-in should have been applied. My question is, with the benefit of hindsight, and given we now know the cost of rescuing those two banks is of the order of €35 billion, should a different decision have been made regarding Anglo and Nationwide?

Mr. David Doyle

If ... if the conditions in the domestic and international European financial markets were such that the lenders to those banks could have been hit for a significant write-off, I think that would have been a preferential outcome, but the conditions that applied at that point, given the advice that was coming from the European Central Bank that there was to be no bank failure, it's very difficult to see how that could be done. I think ... I think Governor Honohan made a number of comments. He did say:

I think, with the information available, they should have nationalised Anglo ... Would it have saved €40 billion? No.

That was his answer, on page 732 I have written down here, I don't know whether ... I don't have the hearing notes with me.

Yes. Well, that's with the information available at the time. He is now saying that his recommendation would've been to nationalise and work it out that way-----

Mr. David Doyle

Well-----

-----and ... but-----

Mr. David Doyle

Well, Deputy, I'd have to say, you know, nationalisation at the time that was being considered ... the type of nationalisation that was being considered was not to step in and take control of the assets, being the loans, and release all ... release ... say to the depositors and lenders, "You'll get your money back when the assets have been realised." That's sort of tantamount to an involuntary liquidation. The nationalisation that was being-----

Just to get clarity - I'll afford Deputy McGrath a bit of extra time here - we established earlier with you, Mr. Doyle, that there was legislation that was available through the nationalisation of a bank and that Anglo could've been nationalised on the evening. Given the comments that you said there and your quote with regard to Professor Honohan, I suppose the obvious question, is why was legislation not actually acted upon and did anybody, on that night, advocate that the legislation would be used?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, as I've said in my earlier comments, the Minister and Kevin Cardiff pressed strongly for nationalisation. The Minister, having heard the debate surrounding the possible consequences of that, arrived at a different view and then went over those arguments a number of times. So, in terms of, was anybody saying the legislation should be used, the argument was being put forward that Anglo should be nationalised. It wasn't accepted universally or by majority of those, so-----

And I'm not-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----if it had been ... if the decision had been made to nationalise it, it could've been used.

I'm not being pedantic and I will afford Deputy McGrath time to come back in, but you see, it's one thing to say, "Let's go and nationalise a bank." That's a very abstract concept. What I'm trying to establish is on the evening, was there a concretised proposal that said, "We can nationalise Anglo Irish Bank, we do have legislation here and we can move it." So the argument in terms of nationalising Anglo is in the context that there is a vehicle and a mechanism and a methodology to actually do so. Not that we need to go in and do something now, how can we do it, but there is actually a method to do it.

Mr. David Doyle

To be honest with you, Chairman, I don't recall anybody saying, "We have a piece of legislation." But everybody knew. The attorney who had written it with his parliamentary draftsman, the Minister who was involved with it-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----Kevin, myself, the Governor, the regulator all knew that the legislation was there.

Thank you. Deputy McGrath.

Finally, Chair and Mr. Doyle, when this committee had an engagement with Jean-Claude Trichet in Kilmainham, he was very explicit that in the lead up to the guarantee, there was no message to Brian Lenihan, there was no message to Ireland, there was no message to the Government that "You shall save your banks and that no bank shall fail." And can I just ... you have given your own statement to us today on that issue. But again, can I just put to you what Mr. Kevin Cardiff submitted in his witness statement which starts on page 14. His recollection is that:

[B]efore the guarantee night, the Governor of the Central Bank, John Hurley reported three important points from Frankfurt, after discussions with the President of the ECB:

1. There was no European approach to the financial crisis in preparation at that point.

2. The message from [Mr. Trichet] the President was that each Government should protect its own financial institutions and should not let them fail [and finally]

3. The ECB was not preparing any special intervention in relation to liquidity, including in relation to collateral.

That is a complete contradiction of what Mr. Trichet said to this committee in Kilmainham. Which is accurate?

Mr. David Doyle

I don't want to be semantic, but-----

Could you just answer the question?

Mr. David Doyle

My ... but ... my ... no, we will go through it. My recollection on this before the guarantee night ... so that was the day before I take it, because Kevin was in touch with the Governor on that Sunday and my understanding is you had a certain note there that was passed into the Cabinet. The Governor was in touch with Mr. Trichet. My understanding is that Kevin's account there is what he would've got from the Governor that Sunday. I think the Minister and Kevin were down in the Central Bank on the Sunday and inevitably, the feedback in relation to where the ECB was or wasn't, would've come to him then. So, if you're asking me, is it accurate, I didn't hear that, but the impression that I got, was that the substance of what Kevin is saying there is correct. But I couldn't put a hand on my heart and say-----

Did this account that Mr. Cardiff has given, was that conveyed on the night of the guarantee to decision makers? Was any account given by him or Mr. Hurley of the position of the ECB or of any communication from the President of the ECB about the backdrop against which the decision was being made?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, what I have included in my statement is a statement to the effect that on the night the Governor advised the meeting that the message from the ... Mr. Trichet, was that no bank should be allowed to fail.

Thank you. I think we have clarity on my first question.

Okay. And we may come back to this in the supplementaries-----

-----afterwards, Deputy. Senator Michael D'Arcy.

Thank you, Chairman. If I could just continue there, Mr. Doyle, please? You said Kevin and the Minister went to Dame Street.

Mr. David Doyle

Central Bank headquarters.

Mr. David Doyle

My understanding is they were down there.

Your note for the Cabinet meeting of the Sunday-----

Mr. David Doyle

Sunday morning.

Sunday morning. So, subsequent to the Cabinet meeting, they went to Dame Street, is that correct?

Mr. David Doyle

No, they ... well, the Cabinet meeting continued. My recollection is that Kevin was over in the treasury ... national treasury building for a good deal of the day, going through the options of what needed to be done and later on then, teamed up with the Minister and went down to the Governor for a discussion.

Okay, that's fine. Within the Department of Finance, who is the best placed person to ... who is the best informed person in relation to the entire banking sector in your view?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, I'd have to say Kevin was extremely well informed. He was the head man on that side. He had my full confidence, the Minister's full confidence and he was very familiar with the financial services industry.

Thank you. Can I just refer to your ... our Department of Finance document, Vol. 2, please. And if we start with the crisis simulation exercise which was late in 2007-----

Mr. David Doyle

What page number there please?

Page 7. Okay.

Mr. David Doyle

Sorry about that, do you know what page?

Mr. David Doyle

Page 7.

Yes, so it starts with the crisis simulation exercise and then it moves to the summary of each individual group who participated and the Central Bank feedback on page 12 and it says to a number of points that are outlined why it "meant ... it was not possible to carryout a systemic impact assessment". And move to page 15 which was the Financial Regulator's feedback, "The assessment of the crisis was unclear as there was no systemic impact assessment carried out." And then I move to page 16 and it is the feedback from ... again, sorry, continuation of the feedback from the regulator and it says, "We need to explore what measures/options are available to handle a crisis apart from ELA or Government guarantees." And then on page 18, Mr. Doyle, the Department of Finance feedback:

In planning [a] next exercise, a particular concern should be to test the central elements of the national response to a financial stability event ([that is,] financial analysis of an individual institution in difficulty, liquidity/solvency assessment, ELA procedures, Eurosystem/ECB aspects, systemic analysis, interacting with media/political level, communications between national authorities, resolution issues etc.) rather than areas which are, while still important, more peripheral.

There seems to be a lot of energy put into the exercise without a clear determination that this was worthwhile. Was it worthwhile and the benefit that it contributed towards the actual crisis, when the crisis erupted?

Mr. David Doyle

Deputy, for a start, I wasn't at that exercise. That was Kevin and William Beausang, and I think Michael Manley were there, the people who represented the Department. The purpose of having the exercise, my understanding was they'd have the exercise, stand back and look at actually what happened and identify, well, how well did that go? How could it be made better? You know, the next time round what were the areas we need to look at? So that was the sense that the exercise took place, there's a critical evaluation taking place, with a view to what would happen the next time. I think Kevin would probably share with you his view of that particular exercise.

I'm asking your view, Mr. Doyle, please.

Mr. David Doyle

Well, my view is what I said. The reason they did the exercise was to see, if there was a problem, how would the various players in the Central Bank, regulator and Department react to the hypothetical stress scenario that was discussed, and then to evaluate that, and then clearly a lot of people weren't totally satisfied with the way it had done and were identifying how the next such exercise could be enhanced.

Can I go to page ... same volume, page 93 and 94. There was an e-mail to yourself from Brendan McDonagh. I'm not sure if this is protected. Is this protected? No. This is from Brendan McDonagh to William Beausang.

Mr. David Doyle

Beausang.

Yes. And it's also available to yourself, cc'd to yourself. And the question was in relation to the impact of a full guarantee, and this is dated 26 September 2008. So this is three days before the actual night of the guarantee. And Brendan McDonagh says:

This is very difficult to answer as the potential real exposure to the Exchequer of writeoffs is not yet independently qualified.

The rating agencies will be taken aback at the scale of the state involvement in any [I'm not quite sure what it is, I assume it's clean-up] operation and the speed of it occurring. Clearly the length of the workout will be an important factor in their assessment of Ireland's credit rating also. We expect to be put immediately on negative watch and probably soon after be downgraded, how many notches from AAA we just don't know.

Combining [to] takeon of banks Balance sheets of Anglo and Inbs of 110bn and guaranteeing the others of over 420 bn with a deteriorating budget deficit will lead at least in our estimation, an increase in the cost of funding of perhaps ... 1 percent in funding costs.

I just want to leave it there, Mr. Doyle, please. It would suggest, or would it suggest, that the bank guarantee was well considered days before the night of the bank guarantee itself within the Department, within the NTMA, that this was one of very few options that were available to yourselves? Is that a fair comment?

Mr. David Doyle

It's fair comment that by the end of September the possibility of having a guarantee was going to be looked at. I think the reason that I that day asked for the assessment of the implications for the sovereign debt was that ... I'm not sure whether I can refer to discussions of the Central Bank board, Chairman?

You can in general terms as long as you don't be specific in terms of personalities or institutions.

Mr. David Doyle

Okay. Well, my recollection is that at a board meeting the previous day or two days ... I think it was the previous day, that the Governor at that meeting said that up to that point his conclusion, having regard to all the analysis available to him, was that a guarantee shouldn't be part of the suite of measures, but that given where things were now he felt that, for the first time, that a guarantee would have to be contemplated.

And in the light of that, then, I posed the question, "What are the implications of that going to be, for the sovereign debt cost?" Now, in Brendan's note, which actually wasn't copied to me at the time ... what the note at the top ... oh, yes, it was ... I'm sorry it was, it was forwarded on by William ... what Brendan's note is saying there, a 1% increase in debt costs, and the debt ... national debt at the time was €50 billion, so that's going to cost €500 million. The reference to €110 million nationalised bank is a separate issue. That was hypothetical and if it had been nationalised, in fact, it wasn't going to be on the basis of the State writing cheques to make up for the borrowing of those nationalised banks, so it's ... I don't think the read ... I can see where he was coming from, but it was going to be, we were going to be underwriting ... the nationalisation would have meant that we would have been standing behind the borrowing of the banks, not actually, borrowing the money. So we're like the State, like the borrowing of the ESB which ... so what was really critical there was the 1% and the half a billion that that was involved in the additional servicing cost, and that was the figure around which the fees for the guarantee centred, in, in the days after the guarantee had been decided.

Mr. Doyle, the Wright report, Nyberg report, public accounts committee report and Professor John FitzGerald were... none of whom were satisfied that the Department, the Department had neither ... the Wright report states:

The Department had neither the time nor the resources to conduct in-depth investigation of issues. There was a shortage of skills in the requisite disciplines.

Do you think that's a fair assessment?

Mr. David Doyle

I think it's a fair assessment. The Department had a wide range of staff, I think, before I retired. We had our own in-house review of the capabilities of the Department. That was published about six ... in the middle of 2009, and it identified the need for the Department to increase its skill base. I wouldn't accept that the Department had no skill base, say, in relation to economics, for instance. There were something like, depending on what figure ..I ... 60 to 80 people in the Department with some form of economics qualification, but, as somebody else commented, how many economists do you need to work out that the explosion in credit was a fundamental problem, you know? There was a failure there, as I said in my opening statement, to stand back and look at what was happening in reality in the housing market, and to accept the assurance of the Central Bank and regulator. But, basically, a lot of the people in the Department were very committed and dedicated, but the Department did need a broader pool of skills, accountancy, taxation, economics, right across the board; it did need to enhance its skills base. And from what I've read, that has been carried through into action.

Okay, I now propose, given that Senator D'Arcy has concluded his questioning, that we would take a short break. It is now 4.40 p.m., that we would suspend until 4.55 p.m., and resume at that time. In doing so, if I could just remind the witness that once he begins giving evidence he should not confer with any other person other than his legal team in relation to his evidence or matters to be suspended ... or discussed before the committee. With that in mind I now suspend the meeting until 4.55 p.m., is that agreed? And in doing so remind the witness that he is still under oath. Thank you.

Sitting suspended at 4.40 p.m. and resumed at 5.02 p.m.

Can I now propose that we go back into public session? Is that agreed? And the next questioner is Deputy John Paul Phelan. Deputy, you've ten minutes.

Thank you, Chairman. Good afternoon, Mr. Doyle. I want to refer to your opening statement and indeed to the core documents ... I think it's page 141 to 145, which is about the domestic standing group. What arrangements, if any, were in place for the Department of Finance representative on the domestic standing group to report back to the Department's management board on the working of the group and were there regular updates provided and, if so, how were these provided?

Mr. David Doyle

There weren't ... open reporting to the management group. The reality is that the work that this group was doing at the time was regarded as ultra sensitive. The manager group was quite a large group and, while everyone trusts everyone else, I think, as a former Minister said to me once, "If you know something and tell somebody else something, the number of people that know it is not one plus one equals two, it is one plus one equals 111." So it was regarded as ultra sensitive that ... the fact that legislation was being prepared to take fundamental action. So ... but I would've been briefed by Mr. Cardiff as he saw fit.

And were there others?

Mr. David Doyle

The people that were involved in the work of the group? Well, there was Mr. Cardiff, Mr. Beausang, Mr. Michael Manley, they would've been the three main people - second secretary, assistant secretary and principal officer.

And there's no written reports or ... or ... you know, that would've been brought back to the Department from the standing-----

Mr. David Doyle

I think they were keeping records of the meetings-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----which they retained themselves and ... but they weren't being circulated in the Department.

Can I ask you also to explain why your Department did not undertake or commission any analysis of the risks to the economy that would arise in the event of the ... of an interruption in the flow of foreign funding that was coming in at the time when you were Secretary General?

Mr. David Doyle

Those ... those ... was there a risk analysis taken of an interruption in the international money supply? No.

There was a progressive tightening of the money markets but at no point before September did they become so critical that liquidity ... the bottom of the liquidity pot available to the banks started to run dry. Also, being part of the European Central Bank system, the Department always hoped that the European Central Bank would ... as things tightened, that their arrangements for providing liquidity would be loosened. In fact, they were moving the other way - and I think Kevin mentions that in his documents - they were moving towards tightening of collateral.

But why was there ... was there any in-depth analysis of the risks that that could pose?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, we were ... no, no. We were dependent on the Central Bank, which was responsible for financial stability-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----monetary policy and, in conjunction with the regulator, in dealing with the financial markets.

Mr. David Doyle

You ... you ... we would expect that that's where the financial expertise lay and if there was an identified need, they would bring it forward before the board and then bring it forward to the Minister and the Department.

I want to turn to your membership of the board of the Central Bank, by virtue of your position as Secretary General. You said earlier on - in answer, I think, to Deputy O'Donnell - that steps to curb excessive credit growth should have been taken. Did you, at any juncture, voice those concerns as a member of the board of the Central Bank? You had an opportunity and a position on the board to raise those concerns.

Mr. David Doyle

Yes, I did have that opportunity but, as I noted earlier, with the wisdom that Governor Honohan shared with you, which was to the effect that the damage was being done by the banks mainly in 2004, '05 and '06; if you come up with some great idea at the end of 2006, it would've been too late. If you look at the trends for lending to households in the non-financial sector, which is not the total-----

My time is very ... we're down to four minutes and I don't want to cut you too short, but I-----

Mr. David Doyle

Well, I'm sorry, Deputy, but it's an important part of the response.

I'll afford you a bit of time, Deputy Phelan.

I'll afford you a bit of time.

Mr. David Doyle

The main increase in lending took place before 2006. It went from €40 billion in 1997 to €270 billion by 1996. There was another increase in 2007 of 311 and it's ... remained at that and started to reduce significantly after that. So, when I went on the board, there was a lot of concern about the explosion in credit that had happened - the potential implications of it. Their assessment was that it wasn't going to create financial instability. They had tightened some of the liquidity rules, made the decision in 2006, implemented it in early 2007 in relation to 100% mortgages but that was all too little too late. The first thing that I read on becoming Secretary General was an analysis from the International Monetary Fund on our regulatory regime which, as I said earlier, gave us a green card, not quite best-in-class, but the banks could cope with anything adverse that would come down the road at them.

I want to turn now to your time before you were Secretary General, when you were ... I think, immediately prior to it, you were head of ... or responsible for public expenditure division within the Department of Finance in the run-up to 2006, a period when public expenditure increased by almost 44%. In hindsight now, do you believe that you ... or can you express to the inquiry whether you voiced any concerns at that increase in public expenditure or do you think, looking back on it now, that you could have done more to raise those concerns?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, I think if you go through the budgetary documentation for each year, you will see the Department of Finance expressing concern about the rate of growth in spending. If you look at what happened in the first ... 2000, an increase of 20% in current spending; 2002, 14%-----

Are you happy that you-----

Mr. David Doyle

I'm-----

-----voiced those-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----I'm happy that-----

-----concerns? Okay.

Mr. David Doyle

-----there was a serious political discussion-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----at that point, with the Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance, and the Tánaiste-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----of the day in which it was pointed out, clearly to them and it was pointed out in a memorandum for Government that this pace of increase could not be sustained.

Okay. But your advice wasn't taken, is that what your inferring from-----

Mr. David Doyle

The advice of the Department of Finance is sometimes taken-----

And sometimes not.

Mr. David Doyle

-----but not always.

Okay. Can I ask you-----

Mr. David Doyle

That's what governments are for.

I want to turn now to the night of guarantee, in particular. We've had evidence from Mr. McDonagh, then of the NTMA, that they were not consulted on the night of the guarantee, that they were in a room adjacent to where the discussions were taking place. Why were the NTMA not part of that discussion on the night, in light of the fact that the taxpayer was put on the hook to the tune of €34 billion or €35 billion, and these were ... this was the authority which was responsible for funding the State, effectively?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, for a start, they had contributed to the analysis that underlay the Merrill Lynch and their input was invaluable in that context. They were ... they were invited by Kevin Cardiff to come in and to be available and to deal with the decisions. As to why they weren't invited ... I actually can't ... into the room, I can't recall.

Do you think that was an error in hindsight, in light of the fact that they were the people responsible, with expertise for funding?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, I think they would ... there would potentially have been a more thorough discussion. I know at least one of the people that was there from the NTMA in the outer chamber would have been as sceptical, or possibly more so sceptical, about one of the financial institutions.

Can I ask, also, in relation to the relationship between the Department of Finance and the National Treasury Management Agency at the time, there was some comment in some arms of the media that it was an uneasy relationship. Can you describe the nature of it?

Mr. David Doyle

For the vast bulk of the period of my career in the Department, I didn't actually deal with the treasury management agency, except for a short period. Going back when it was established in 1990, by a decision of the Government to separate from the Department so it would be professionalised and staffed with people with appropriate skills, there did seem to be some - I'm just observing from outside - some historical baggage about the few of the people in the Department that the NTMA were, had, you know, been hived off. The people in the NTMA seemed to think that the Department resented that. I never found any justification for that myself. My own dealings with them were ... I regarded them as highly professional and competent. Towards the end of the 90s, I dealt with a number of issues where we transferred additional tasks to them - central treasury management agency ... or central treasury management, State Claims Agency. And at the time, Charlie McCreevy issued a press release in which he said that the investment experience ... investment expertise available to him was in the National Treasury Management Agency.

Mr. David Doyle

They were subsequently tasked with the National Pensions Reserve Fund, the National Development Finance Agency, the National Asset Management Agency. That was all testament to the way in which both the Ministers for Finance over the years and the Department regarded them as independent, expert advisers in relation to financial matters.

Finally, I'm going to ask you, all in the one question, in relation to your own pension entitlement, leaving the public service.

When you retired in 2010, your pension was topped up in order for you to be able to pay ... be paid the maximum on retirement. I want you to state whether that's correct or not. And, secondly, is it common practice for retiring civil servants, teachers, nurses, guards, to have their pensions topped up in such a manner? Why was this payment sanctioned? Who sanctioned it? And do you believe that the taxpayer has got value for money for that payment?

All right. The question is made.

Mr. David Doyle

Well, the arrangements for ... for pensions for secretary generals are laid down at the outset of a contract. Mine were no different from anyone else. I think in my case there was two added years because I had been in the service for ... I can't remember now, 1972 to 2010. So it was about two added years. Younger secretary generals retiring would have got an awful lot more than that. Standard arrangements. Do I think that the arrangements were justified? I think that the pension arrangements for top people and, indeed, the salaries for it were excessive. They've been significantly reduced now and the pension arrangements have been significantly curbed.

Who sanctioned it?

Sorry, Deputy, I'm moving on.

No, but that's ... I'm ... I'm-----

Okay-----

I asked the question and I just ... I'm going to ask-----

I'm after giving you lots ... I'm after giving you more leverage now than I ... than others, in fairness, and-----

-----you've been chasing salary levels and ... I don't know how that's relevant to the lines of inquiry. If you can make an argument for that, I'll facilitate it but if it's just kind of looking into somebody's wallet, I'm just moving on. Deputy Higgins.

I asked who sanctioned it. I asked it about three times now at this stage.

All right, well ... all right, well, what's ... make the relevance to evidence, Deputy, and then I'll make ... I'll move on with the question.

The relevance to evidence is that there's a lot of people watching here today whose pensions have been greatly depleted as a result of the crisis that the country found itself in.

And they have a legitimate question as to people who got substantive pension payments. And this is a unique, slightly different, topped-up pension and I want to know how it came about. That's all.

Mr. David Doyle

Well, my understanding of the general arrangements that were made for secretary generals - there was a time limited nature of the appointment and there was an age limit also on the appointment. The time limit was generally seven years and so if you retired considerably below the normal retirement age of 60 or 65, there was a top-up. I couldn't swear what the total top-up was supposed to be but I have a feeling it would've been up to seven years generally. In my case, it was two. Who sanctioned it? They were the arrangements approved by the Government. They have been ... they have been ... those top-ups, as I understand it, no longer apply and the basic salaries have all been significantly reduced. As I said, I ... I never set out to become Secretary General so that I could earn more money. That was what went with the job. I'd have been very happy with less and, in a way, I'm surprised that my pension wasn't cut even more than it was.

Okay, thank you. Deputy Higgins.

Mr. Doyle, could you tell us, just very briefly, relating to PricewaterhouseCoopers loan book analysis of Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide Building Society around the guarantee time?

Mr. David Doyle

Are you referring to a particular page there, Deputy?

PricewaterhouseCooper. No, it's-----

Mr. David Doyle

Is that a document?

Well, there is reference to it, yes, in the Department of Finance, Vol. 2, page 113, but I would ... I think this is well known. I'm not asking you for a specific-----

Mr. David Doyle

Okay.

Mr. David Doyle

Okay. Okay, don't hold me to specific figures then - but if there's a particular document, I'll have a look at it - but my recollection is that post the increase in the deposit guarantee scheme to €100,000, the view was that that bought time. It bought time to ease the concern of the ordinary citizen who had a few bob tucked away in the banks and was concerned about it ... that assuaged them. But, in relation to what the position was in the banks, the Department and the National Treasury Management Agency were very concerned that we didn't have a flow of information coming to us about what the real state of play in the financial institutions was.

PwC were commissioned by the regulator, to my recollection, at the request of the NTMA and ourselves to go in and have a look firstly, at what the liquidity position was in each of the financial institutions and in the case of Nationwide, I think what they found was that the, there was, strangely enough a large cash pile at the time, which was going to dissipate rapidly over the following few months because there was a major facility going to expire. They were, they were losing a lot of their normal deposits. If you recall, there had been a false story published at the beginning of September 2008 to the effect that Nationwide were in discussion with their, with their lenders in the context of, of seeking protection. I can't remember the exact story but it was false and it did damage them, quite apart from whatever other damage might have been done there anyway. They also went in and looked at Anglo, and they found-----

Yes, but in relation to that looking Mr. Doyle, were you made aware that this look was really depending on the banks' own management information?

Mr. David Doyle

Yes, we were aware of that. We were also aware that the PwC people that went in there in the course of, of a couple of days were able to feed us information about the liquidity exposures, information that we didn't have otherwise. So, like, they-----

But did it or did it not emerge later really, in view of the huge amount that was spent on the guarantee, that there should have been a much more thorough and forensic examination? Rather than relying on ... and can I refer to one document ... that's from William Beausang, it's not in the book but it's cleared for display ... from William Beausang, e-mail, and yourself is copied into that Mr. Doyle, on 19 September 2008? Maybe that could go up, yes, thank you. And then in the second last paragraph under Anglo, it says GS, which is Goldman Sachs, who were had looked at INBS, "were very clear that if they were in our position they would have legal, accounting and corporate finance expertise combing through the books". Now, shouldn't that really have been a warning to the regulator and to yourselves that a forensic examination was needed, not depending on information from the management of the banks?

Mr. David Doyle

For a start, this is about a fortnight before the actual meltdown of the market. Secondly Goldman Sachs were in there originally doing some work for, as I regard, Nationwide, and they were asked by the Central Bank to go in and have a look on their behalf. So, while they did say this, they also said I think over the following fortnight, that things weren't as bad as they thought originally. Goldman Sachs expressed that view in some document or other. The, the central point that you're making is that the system didn't have adequate information, we found that the regulator ... did not have adequate information to say to us exactly what was their liquidity position, what was their exposures. And we weren't happy with that, we were pressing the regulator to get people in ... Goldman Sachs did some work for them, they eventually brought PriceWaterhouse in to do a, a job on the liquidity and then they also asked them to do a significant job on the loan book.

Okay. Would it be true to say, Mr. Doyle, that in the case of Irish Nationwide, more was known. and that really by the guarantee night, it should have been clear from the evidence that it was not solvent? Can I refer to core document Vol. 2, page 6? And this relates Mr. Doyle to the-----

Mr. David Doyle

What book is that in?

It's Vol. 2 of the ... your document.

Mr. David Doyle

I, I have two Vol. 2s.

DDO, Vol. 2, David Doyle.

Mr. David Doyle

Yes, but which date Deputy? I have two----

Vol. 2, 9 June 2015, page 6.

Mr. David Doyle

And now I just ... I'm just saying, I have two blocks of green-----

One for the Department of Finance-----

Mr. David Doyle

Yes, but-----

The one with dates on them.

Mr. David Doyle

Yes, but-----

Yes, but we have it on screen anyway here, Mr. Doyle.

Mr. David Doyle

What days are on the bottom of it ... on yours.

9 June, but it'll come up on the screen anyway.

Mr. David Doyle

Okay.

This relates, Mr. Doyle, to a meeting organised by the Regulator with the main banks and Irish Nationwide, etc., and in page 6, at the bottom half of the page, meeting 5. I'll just take a sentence from that ... two sentences from that paragraph. It says, "The banks [this is a minute of the meeting] ... The banks reiterated that it was not a realistic proposition for either institution [that's AIB or Bank of Ireland] to provide unsecured funding for an entity that had a hole in its balance sheet which would exceed its reserves." And two sentences down, "Both AIB and BoI [Bank of Ireland] independently took the view that the CBI/FR [Financial Regulator] was seriously ruling in the possibility of letting IN [Irish Nationwide] go as a realistic option." And because of time, I'll just go to another piece of evidence, which is Mr. Drumm and this on the same book but it's page 119 and this is a letter from Mr. Drumm to the Financial Regulator in relation to whether Anglo Irish should take control of Irish Nationwide and in page 119, Mr. Drumm says, in a minute or statement, and I repeat:

To publicly undertake to make up any deficit in net assets after the loan book has been realised and all liabilities [...] repaid. That is to say, any losses incurred in realising the loan assets will first be absorbed by member's equity [...] and then if any loss remains, by the Minister.

Is it very clear or not, Mr. Doyle, that all the main players were saying Irish Nationwide is simply insolvent?

Mr. David Doyle

That first meeting that you referred to, page 5 and 6 of Vol. 2, DDO ... The background to that particular meeting which the Department wasn't at. I think Mr. Cardiff deals with it in his statement. The regulator brought in AIB and Bank of Ireland ... this is post the leak in London that said they were-----

Mr. David Doyle

They were-----

The nub of my question, Mr. Doyle, essentially, because of time, is this, with all that evidence, a person might say ... an ordinary person might say that it was blindingly obvious that main players were saying "INBS is finished. It's a bust bank." And my question to you then is this, on the night of the guarantee, was there a discussion on the seriousness of INBS's alleged hole, according to other banks, before a decision was made to guarantee it?

Mr. David Doyle

The banks came in to that meeting on the night of the guarantee and said that, in their view, Anglo and Nationwide should be nationalised.

But that's not the question I've asked-----

Mr. David Doyle

Well there-----

Was there a major discussion on how serious the situation was and that this was in fact insolvent?

Mr. David Doyle

The bulk of the discussion was on Anglo, rather than Nationwide.

Mr. David Doyle

There were concerns about Nationwide. Looking at it in retrospect, given everything that emerged for both those organisations, once you got past the point of the guarantee, the capitalisation and then the NAMA loan acquisition and write-offs, obviously they were seriously insolvent. Were they insolvent on that night? There were people who were saying that they were in major trouble. The ... what the regulator was saying they weren't insolvent, my understanding from what I saw elsewhere subsequent to some of those earlier meetings with Goldman Sachs, they weren't saying clearly that they weren't insolvent.

The PwC, when they went in and did the liquidity thing, said, "Yes, actually, INBS might have plenty of cash but it's all going to disappear." When they went in and did their Project Atlas work, the three different stress tests, my recollection is that that ... even that stage didn't show that their capital was wiped out, but it did show a lot of concern.

Yes. And in Vol. 1 and Vol. 2, I don't have time to quote it, Mr. Doyle, but you can take my word that it's here, both Merrill Lynch said that INBS loans were €11.7 billion, and that its assets were €3.6 billion, and Goldman Sachs said it had regulatory capital of €1.834 billion; again, further evidence. Now, in view of these ... all these players were in daily contact with yourselves, with the regulator; would you say that there should have been ... of course Anglo, but because of the apparently extra information that was known about Nationwide, that there should have been the most serious discussion in relation to Nationwide? And because my time perhaps is finished-----

Mr. David Doyle

Could I just note quickly, if you're saying ... and I haven't put my finger on the document ... if you're saying that there was still roughly €2 billion in shareholders' funds left that didn't mean that they were insolvent-----

No, no, no-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----that they were below the-----

That would be ... that's all the regulatory capital it had. But if-----

Mr. David Doyle

But if it was insolvent, it would have had no regulatory capital.

No, but I was taking from two separate things. The-----

Mr. David Doyle

Merrill's were saying in their document, on the night of September, if you apply the stress test of whatever it was, 10% or something, maybe it was 20%, that there would be a large write-off in their capital, but, as I said earlier, that stress test was a theoretical one; it wasn't constructed on the basis that Deputy McGrath referred to earlier, getting in and actually looking at the individual loan books and the collateral cross-guarantees, net worth of the individuals and so on. So were we convinced that Nationwide was a wonderful organisation? No. Did we almost collapse when Anglo came in and said they wanted to buy Nationwide? Absolutely.

Finally, Mr. Doyle, then-----

Ask, and I'm going to move on then, Deputy, thank you.

Finally, on the night of the guarantee, Mr. Cardiff says that the Taoiseach was from the very beginning advocating a broad guarantee, and stuck with that, which included both Anglo and Nationwide. Is it surprising to you, in view of these serious concerns about some of these institutions, that the Taoiseach of the country would take such a stand at the very beginning of what was a critical discussion?

We have to test that evidence now, by the way, Deputy. So, first of all, would you concur with what is being presented, and do you have a view on it? Like, that evidence has to be tested.

Mr. David Doyle

I accept what Kevin is saying, that the Taoiseach put it on the table early on. It's ... it's impossible to recall with clarity a meeting that happened, whatever it is, seven years ago now, but I accept his word that the Taoiseach put it on the table. But my recollection is the Taoiseach was a pretty direct character. He'd put it on the table and say, "Now, let's examine this." I don't recall ... like, if he had come in and said, "Let's examine this. We're not going to discuss anything else. Let's just do it", I'd accept that that wouldn't have been the appropriate position, but that's not what he did. He put it on the table and the debate went on for about six or seven hours after that.

Would it have been more appropriate to put on the table first the known state of the banks one by one, and the risks, and then come with possible solutions? Would that not have been a more logical approach?

Mr. David Doyle

On that night, the money was running out.

The fear was that Anglo wouldn't open in the morning and the rest of the banks would be disastrously affected and there'd be economic chaos. There wasn't the time to go in and get a root-and-branch analysis from the ground up as to what the true financial position of the banks was. We were relying on what the regulator - who had been regulating all these institutions for so many years - presenting his view or the view of the regulatory machine, which is more appropriate to describe it, of the state of the banks, which was that they were solvent, profitable, well-capitalised and well-managed, I think, was the mantra.

Senator Sean Barrett.

Thank you, Chairman. Could I bring you ... you're welcome, Mr. Doyle, could I bring you to page 169 of Vol. 3, in the core documents, DDO?

Mr. David Doyle

Vol. 3. Which page again there, Deputy?

169. It's an interview with you in, I think, 2010 on 14 October, "David Doyle, Former Secretary-General", and the second last bullet point is "The ECB's supervisory role with regard to the Central Bank was questioned." Could you give us your questioning of how the ECB supervised the Central Bank?

Mr. David Doyle

So I'm just trying to find that bullet point - page 169, is it?

The second last-----

Mr. David Doyle

The second last, okay.

---of the bullet points, yes. It begins, "By 2007 the damage was done", and the last sentence is: "The ECB's supervisory role with regard to the Central Bank was questioned." Could you give us your views on that?

Mr. David Doyle

First of all, this note of this meeting was never agreed with me, right. It's just to note that, it's not an agreed report. It's their note of the meeting. The statement there is still the same statement I made in my opening statement today, in my written response to you and my oral statement today. I don't know what the workings between the European Central Bank and the Central Bank are because they're shrouded in secrecy and, you know, if you want to know - from an authoritative point of view - as to what ... how that worked, you'd have to get it straight from the Governor, who's a member of the ECB. In relation to my ... my, just, external observation, when you had credit growing throughout the early part of the 2000s, at phenomenal growth rates, 30%-35%, I'm just staggered that no intervention was made. Now the European Central Bank, its core function or its principal function, I think, is the word, is inflation; but it's also, as part of the ESCB with the central banks, charged with the task of contributing to financial stability. Now, throughout the 2000s, you had a significant drop in interest rates, which reflected the economic conditions right across the eurozone, particularly some of the bigger countries where the growth rate was very low. In our case, it was extremely high, so the interest rate regime applicable throughout the eurozone was not appropriate to Ireland, and my point ... my criticism is that, given that excessive growth rate and what that was doing to the economy, there should have been an intervention. I don't know whether the ECB ever advised the Irish Central Bank that they should make an intervention.

Thank you. On page 11 of that volume, there's a letter to Mr. Jean-Claude Trichet, dated 30 October, from the Taoiseach's private office and it says, "I ... acknowledge receipt of your letter ... of 16 October", and it's copied to the Department of Finance and it's copied to the Governor. Was that unusual, at that time, that people would wait a fortnight and not reply to Mr. Trichet?

Mr. David Doyle

That's on page ... page-----

Mr. David Doyle

It's the Taoiseach's letter and the Taoiseach's .... I think, you know, there was an awful lot going in the country at that stage.

If I could come to ... on page 13-----

Mr. David Doyle

You want to ask ... ask other people.

Okay. The last paragraph is that Mr. Trichet says: "I am writing to underline the importance that the ECB attaches to the exclusion of interbank deposits with maturity of up to three months from liabilities covered by the draft-scheme." So, we could have saved money if we'd responded to Mr. Trichet's letter?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, that's one view. As to whether you would save money, is another thing.

If you exclude people from a benefit, you save the money, isn't that right?

Mr. David Doyle

It depends on what the market interpretation of that decision would be. If the Government took their decision ... the ECB, obviously, had some reservations but in the final analysis, they didn't pull any support for the guarantee or, indeed, for the liquidity available to the Irish ... the Central Bank's ... you must remember that in Paris, a week before this, the Heads of State and Government got together and they more or less, basically agreed that they'd throw the kitchen sink at the financial crisis in terms of equity, guarantees, special facilities.

I'll bring you to page 71 in that volume at point 28, "According to the Irish Government, Anglo is a fundamentally sound institution", and this was on 14 January 2009. That's what we told the European Union. It wasn't a financially sound institution at that stage. It was in all the evidence to the contrary.

Mr. David Doyle

I think, you know, the reality is that the assessments that were ongoing in relation to Anglo, around that time, were showing concern but they were ... and if you recall, just before Christmas that year or before Christmas ... in Christmas 2008, the Government had decided to put forward a proposition to invest in the banks and as part of its intent to stand behind the banking system and it had intended to supply €1.5 billion in capital to Anglo. This document, reading it, is the Commission analysis of the proposal. That proposed injection of €1.5 billion of Anglo was, in fact, taken off the table that, that week, I suspect. Around about that time, the Government decided to nationalise Anglo-----

Who made the €8.5 billion estimate? I know you didn't, it was attributed incorrectly to you. Was somebody else at the meeting - in response from questioning by you said that they ... they were short €8.5 billion? Who said that?

Mr. David Doyle

Are we going back to the note now of 24 September?

Mr. David Doyle

I have seen various manuscript notes talking about different figures. One that refers to figures after capital and one that doesn't refer to figures after capital. So, precisely which is the correct transcription, I don't know. I did say earlier that I'm absolutely satisfied I didn't answer my own question that I posed. I asked the accountant that was attending the meeting from PwC, whose name is incorrectly recorded in that minute as Dan O'Connor - I think it was Denis O'Connor - I asked him "Did I, did I make those ... did I gave that answers to my own question?" He said, "No", that he thought it was the NTMA representatives.

So, I can't recall on what basis they made those but I would suggest that they were saying, "Well, if Anglo's book has to be written off...", like, to arrive at a figure of €8.5 billion after capital, their loan book at the time was about €70 billion. Their capital say was, just to make it easy, €7 billion.

And did this undermine-----

Mr. David Doyle

If ... if you wrote ... if you had to write down a loan book by 20%, that would be around €15 billion. Which we----

Does this undermine-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----but there was no ... there was no evidence-based analysis that demonstrated that but you know, you can do .... you can do a stress test. You can say, "Well, if the book has to be written off by 20%, this is what could emerge." So as to what the person that made the comment meant by that, you know, you would have to ask that person.

On the ... in Vol. 2 on page 151, on the afternoon of the guarantee, there's a memo here, "Anglo currently 1.6 billion short." And then you were at the meeting with the €8.5 billion. So we shouldn't have said to the EU on 14 January 2009, Anglo is a fundamentally sound institution when we knew it wasn't.

Mr. David Doyle

Is that ... is that, sorry, Chairman. Is that in booklet DDO?

This .. the Vol. 2 of DDO on page 151 is a note that says Anglo on the-----

Mr. David Doyle

Okay-----

-----the 29 September 2008 was €1.6 billion short and yet four or five months later we told the EU it is a fundamentally sound institution.

Mr. David Doyle

Well currently, well, like the way I would read that it's a liquidity report. It's not a capital report. ILP is "currently 0.5 billion short due to net outflows of 1.1 billion". Anglo "currently 1.6 billion short."' That seems to me to be an update on liquidity. If you recall on the night, the Central Bank and the regulator advised the meeting that Anglo were short something like €2 billion potentially the next morning. They would be going into the red. And if that wasn't addressed, that would have had the most dire consequences. So that's not a €2 billion deficit in insolvency as far as I read that.

That's supplementary-----

Page 91 of Vol. 3, Ms Nolan estimates "a possible economic loss in Anglo's loan book over the next three years of €12.5 bn".

Mr. David Doyle

Certainly, give me that reference again, Senator.

It's page 91 of Vol. 3 and that's called Anglo's Capital Position. And it's €12.5 billion over three years.

Mr. David Doyle

Are we DDO now or DOF, Vol. 3?

It's on the screen in front of you, you don't need to be going through those books there.

Mr. David Doyle

Yes, and on what date is this?

What date? It's 13 May 2009.

Mr. David Doyle

13 May?

Mr. David Doyle

13 May. Well, there was an awful lot of water passed under the bridge between the 30 September and 13 May. And some of that water I can't get into in relation to Anglo. In relation to corporate governance issues that came up and concerns about different loans. They ... they were in the public domain. They had a major damaging effect on the company. They produced interim results in December-----

I ... I'm ... because the matters and the feeling where I'm actually I think you are actually going, Mr. Doyle, and because in my entry today, I spoke about other matters that are running concurrently and all the rest of it, I'm going to conclude that there. Senator, I'm moving on unless you have something really, really pertinent to ask that is not related to this matter?

Well, yes about NAMA.

Yes, very briefly if you can.

I'm moving on; we're not taking any more on Anglo.

Yes, thank you. The alternatives to NAMA that were considered and why was NAMA chosen? Thank you, Mr. Doyle.

Mr. David Doyle

After the guarantee there was a lot of concern about the situation of the banks as the property market continued to decline. There was more and more concern in the international market about the real position of the banks. They were regarded as having a lot of deadweight loans, which was dragging them down. The Minister decided to bring in Dr. Bacon to look at the options. The two principal options that were identified was, one, an insurance-based approach where you would write out an insurance policy, charge the banks an appropriate fee, let them work out the facility over the following ten years, say, and at the end of that period, if there was a deficit on the loan portfolio, it would be made good by the policy, for which they would have paid a significant premium. And the understanding on that particular option was that if there was a deficit from that arrangement, there would be a levy on the bank in subsequent years. However, the analysis that was done was concerned that that approach would still leave the market very uncertain about what, in reality, was going to emerge. So, the recommendation was that the cleanest thing to do was to take the loans off the banks for a discount and take it off their balance sheets, remove the doubt about their underlying financial position. They were the two main options, Senator.

If I can just deal with one matter briefly with you before I bring in the next questioner who is Senator O'Keeffe. In an analysis paper you prepared in 2004 - it's coming up on the screen now, Mr. Doyle - it was estimated that a decline in housing output of 10,000 units would cost the Government €500 million in lost revenue. Despite warning that the current level of housing output was unsustainable at that time, no policy or strategy was proposed to deal with such a scenario." So can I ask you was this, in your opinion, a reason for the Government to be very reluctant with measures to cool down the property market?

Mr. David Doyle

That particular note, Chairman, was done in the context of propositions being advanced. I think that note was-----

In and around .... I think it's August '04 is the period-----

Mr. David Doyle

I think it's later than that to my recollection.

Sorry, it's actually ... it is later in the year, it's quite recent.

Mr. David Doyle

It's 24th of the something, '05.

Yes, '05, sorry. That was-----

Mr. David Doyle

And I have signed it 24/11 there when I came back from the Minister.

Mr. David Doyle

That was done in the context of a proposition being advanced ... I ... I ... as it's in the heading there: "Could a significant decline in housing or output be affected by an expansion of public investment?" So like, in 2005 there was the usual heightened concern about housing output, or where the housing market was going and, I can't remember who advanced the proposition that if the market did contract, that the Exchequer would be in position, because of the marvellous position the Exchequer was in, to make up for that drop in activity, which wasn't an argument that held any water. And the purpose of that note was to demonstrate that well, if ... if housing output dropped, there would be a big impact upon revenue and that if you then tried to replace, through public capital investment, the capital equivalent of 10,000 houses, there would be a huge net cost on the budget. So it wasn't a practical proposition.

Okay, can we maybe examine that proposition a bit further with you, Mr. Doyle, in that we do know, and we knew it then as well, that the construction sector was growing so exponentially that it had grown to nearly one quarter, just under one quarter of the Irish economy? And it was by any measure or means at least twice what it should be by EU norms or considered at a sustainable level, which is in around 10% or 12%; it was up around 24%. So the proposition ... could a counter-proposition to that be - and this is what the question is that I'm testing with you - was the Government, or was it your opinion, a reason that the Government to be very reluctant for measures to cool the property market because there's not a lot of apparent measures there at this time to actually cool the market?

In fact, discussions of earlier today, with Mr. Considine this morning, will show that the taxation measures that were under review were not actually acted upon, they just remained under review between the, kind of, 2003 to 2006 period. So, can I put it to you, if I go onto the next page there, it's two pages in ... and in the top paragraph it gives a sort of relationship between the 10,000 houses volume decline or ... it's the third line down, "a rough rule of thumb is that each 10,000 volume decline in housing output [my Latin isn't great so you might translate that for me later] reduces economic growth by about [one quarter] - 1 percentage point. As a result, employment growth would be around ½- 1 percentage point lower than would otherwise be the case." So there's a correct ... or there's a direct correlation here between the number of houses being built and how it's actually presenting in economic growth and if the production of houses ... and as we know this morning ... there was an overproduction of houses being built at the time as well, that if the ... the roll-out of housing units was reduced, it would have an impact on the headline sum on the economy. And then it ... just to bring you down onto the next paragraph, and it's the ... it's the second line into that and it goes again, "However a broad rule of thumb is that each 10,000 reduction in housing output would reduce revenue by around €500 million", and I presume that that's in annum. So, the question I'm putting to you: did these figures in any way influence or give consideration to the Administration of the day that to take any cooling measure with regard to the property market would have an immediate adverse effect upon the revenue and employment figures, regardless of what the long-term consequences would actually be?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, the Administration of the day were aware that the market had overheated and there was a crazy level of output. The clamour of the day in relation to the higher prices was to try and have some sort of an intervention to make it easier for people to get houses. It was the market that was driving the completions, complete with the zoning, the banking credit, and as I said-----

Well, we subsequently discovered afterwards that a lot of these houses were built in places nobody actually wanted them to be built.

Mr. David Doyle

Well, that's your planning development and control. As I said in my opening statement, it was totally unco-ordinated.

But also, Mr. Doyle, that's also the bricks and mortar of it. That's where the houses actually were. It wasn't just the planning. The bricks and mortar were in different parts of the country where nobody wanted to live. So what we had was an overproduction of houses at the time, it was having an impact upon the economic figures, it was having an impact upon the employment levels. And the question I'm putting to you, and I'm asking for your opinion ... was, in your opinion, a reason for the Government to be very reluctant with measures to cool down the property market?

Mr. David Doyle

I don't think so because at that time, we were talking about prior to my becoming Secretary General, essentially-----

But it continued on.

Mr. David Doyle

Yes. The ... well, the market started to slide at the end of 2006. House prices started to decline, credit peaked, the level of houses being bought dropped. And that ... it coincided on my becoming Secretary General, I wasn't responsible for it.

But you were in the Department ... but you were in the Department at the time. Did you ... did you not have an observation on it?

Mr. David Doyle

The Department and the Government of the day would have been looking at what the net debt position was. And net Government debt had fallen, as proportion of ... of output, to about 25% by the end of 2006 and the cash reserves and the National Pensions Reserve Fund were significant. So the debt was ... the true debt was about half that. The general Government surplus in 2006 was €5 billion or 3% of output. If the ... your hypothesis that the Government wasn't concerned about-----

I ... I'll simplify the question. I'll simplify the question. Was the percentage of the Irish economy that was into the property sector and the direct and indirect relationships that it had, both in terms of the ... it ... it's sheer size, 25% - consumption taxes and other things come with it - did that have an influence or any bearing in terms of how that sector would be actually addressed? I think you used the word earlier, I think that ... when you're into something, how do you get out of it afterwards? Were you in so deep into property that it became impossible to extrapolate yourself out of it?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, that was Morgan Kelly's conclusion, that the Government hadn't caused the problem and the Government couldn't do anything about the collapse. Whether that's true or not, I mean, he did say that. You could debate parts of that. But all I was making the point that the budgetary position was so strong, if the Government wanted to make an intervention to drive prices down or to drive property output down, which wouldn't have been all that easy to do because everyone was building all over the place, there was the financial scope there, apparently, only on the face of the numbers.

The underlying position was that given the obsessive level of building that had been going on, the real revenue flow was underneath that, were... weren't lasting, that was clearly known. I can recall myself pointing out at the end of 2006 to my colleagues and to political people that the very figure that you spoke about, the 25% of output there on the construction side, that it was unreal and that it would come down and that we were going to be facing tremendous pressures. What we didn't factor in was the international recession which drove out but down internationally about 8%, including in America, England, our main markets. That impacted on us. It didn't factor in the financial crash either and it didn't factor in the collapse in building. It didn't factor in the unsustainability of the reality behind the banks' explosive increase in lending.

Senator O'Keeffe.

Thanks Chair. Mr. Doyle, are you currently or have you been since you retired in any paid directorship of any financial organisation or financial company?

Mr. David Doyle

No, Senator, I spend my time minding my grandchildren.

Excellent. When you were, to follow up on Senator Barrett's observations about NAMA, was there any involvement on the part of the European Central Bank in any of the final decision-making, given that you laid out certain options that were there? Did the ECB get involved and if so how?

Mr. David Doyle

My recollection is that the ECB were approached at the highest level by the Department and the National Treasury Management Agency and the Central Bank in the run up to the decisions on NAMA to ensure that decisions that were being contemplated would be supported by the European Central Bank. Their involvement in funding the whole operation was critical and that was explored and I understand, cleared and agreed with them, before the final decision was made.

That is to suggest that they agreed with whatever had been laid out. Did they actually have any input into the discussions, negotiations, ideas?

Mr. David Doyle

I can't honestly answer that. But all I know is that when the ideas were articulated and before they were approved by Government, the arrangements with the ECB to stand behind it were put in place. That's my understanding, you know, if you asked me to swear on it, I am 99% certain that there was advanced clearance by the ECB for the concept.

Okay. Was it something you had close up and personal...

Mr. David Doyle

I was not over there, no. Mr. Cardiff, I think Ms Nolan, the Governor, the Minister possibly were over there.

Perhaps we can ask them when they come in.

In relation, going back to 2008 if I may, in the summer of 2008, you will recall in July that you were looking, obviously the Department was looking at the budget situation and it was predicted at that point in July that there would be a shortfall perhaps of about €3 billion. And by the time early September came, that had moved on to €5 billion. In fact, in your own ... in the documents, it was already declared that there was a recession in the country, and that by the end of September there was, the shortfall looked like it was perhaps close to €6 billion. So obviously there was a lot of concern behind the scenes. Yet in that documentation relating to the budgetary consolidation, there is no mention anywhere of the banks and what was happening with the banks. Was there a parallel universe there where budget and constraints and expenditure and so on was here, and over here you had "bank mess", for want of a better word? And if so, why was that?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, the manner in which tax shortfalls emerge is by stealth. You don't get, like when Revenue Commissioners get in the cash in a particular quarter, it is impossible for them to extrapolate from a particular quarter what's going to happen by the end of the year.

It's an accumulation of knowledge, so the budget deterioration was accelerating. I can recall myself coming back from my holidays in August that year and it was as if the wind had been taken out of the country. There'd been a complete loss of confidence. I can remember the Taoiseach being personally alarmed at what was going on and was very anxious that something be done to try and address the slide in economic activity. But equally we were concerned about the slide in the revenues, so when the Government decided to bring forward the budget, there was a twin-track approach of, say, "Okay, we'll take some measures to reduce the fiscal slide", bearing in mind the strong position that the public finances were in, apparently, "but we will also look at stimulatory measures where it can be shown to be good value for money". So, you'd have a twin-track approach.

Mr. David Doyle

The Taoiseach ... the Taoiseach and the Minister and the Department were well aware of what was going on in the banking side. Now, at that point, for good or evil, what we had been told was the banks were solvent. There was no talk at that point ... at the end of September, the budget was about a fortnight away. There was no talk about major capital outlays. That started to emerge in December, when the Government decided it would have to back up its support for the banks by a capital injection.

But, in fairness, Mr. Doyle, you didn't know ... okay, you knew how bad the tax returns and the economy was sliding. You also knew that all of the banks, and in particular two or three institutions, were under extreme liquidity stress-----

Mr. David Doyle

Yes.

-----and that internationally there was very little confidence in them and that there was a stand-by on the Moody's and so on, looking to downgrade and so on. How is it then that you waited - you collectively, not you personally - until you arrived in the ... in the state of crisis on the 29th? Why was there no intervention before the 29th, given that those tracks were going in only one direction at that time? Why not act earlier and do something?

Mr. David Doyle

In which area now? The banks-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----or the budget?

Well, either. I mean, everything was converging and everything was going down and neither looked like they were going to come up. Why did you wait until the 29th, until the absolute crisis came, when everyone was then running around and chasing and trying to fix something? Why not act earlier? Why not nationalise one of the banks earlier, or offer some other alternative? Why did you wait?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, just firstly on the budget, we didn't wait until the middle of October. There was corrective measures in-----

No, no, I'm not talking ... I'm talking about the night of the guarantee.

Mr. David Doyle

Yes, but you were talking about the twin-track approach. Just dealing with that track, in the middle of the year, there was corrective action taken. There was a squeeze put on everything. At the end of September, there was a slide taking place in revenue. There was a budget coming up to address that slide that would be followed up in the months that followed. The real crisis on the banking front, it was beginning to emerge, but it didn't cascade until that weekend.

But why did you wait for it to cascade is the question I'm asking you? Why didn't you intervene earlier before it absolutely hit the buffers in the state it was in?

Mr. David Doyle

The perception was that the need for a capital intervention wasn't there. There were reservations about nationalisation but not total; it could have been contemplated. Was that going to make things any different for Anglo, or Nationwide, vis-à-vis the guarantee? Not really. The guarantee was going to ... was saying the Government is going to stand behind them. The nationalisation was going to say the Government is standing behind them. In terms of the impact on the budget and on economic activity, in the short term, it wasn't going to be significant. We know that in later months, and moving down ... moving down the road there were major issues in relation to capitalisation requirements which had significant budgetary implications. The big fiscal problem ... yes, the capitalisation was one and the debt that ... the net debt that arises on foot of that was truly shocking, but the big fiscal impact was first of all the collapse in the international ... not the collapse in the international economy, a significant downturn over two years.

And then, the huge drought in domestic confidence, big increase in the savings ratio, a massive shake-out in employment. All of that accelerated after the period we're talking about. But the-----

But that's not-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----the Department we're looking out of all of this from the point of view of very ... what it perceived to be, a very strong financial position.

Even though the banks had been in crisis now since August 2007, you were still of the view that the banking situation in Ireland was strong?

Mr. David Doyle

No, I'm talking about the Government finances were extremely strong at that time.

Even though you were in recession, you'd already declared that the country was in recession? How could that be?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, your recession could be X quarters with a negative growth. What I'm saying is, if you look at, at what was ... what the debt position was, it was one of the lowest in Europe, at 25% of output. That was the general government debt, and the surplus ... there was a surplus of €5 billion, 3%. There's that point of view, that the Government came into the 2007-8 period from a position of recent financial strength. So there, there was no evidence that ... at that time, that you were facing a major-----

It does say in the document-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----capital requirement-----

It does say here-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----for the banks.

-----agree that the current state of the public finances and its future trajectory if left unchecked, is untenable. And that was dated 3 September 2008. But any ... I ... well ... that's okay.

Mr. David Doyle

That's right.

I mean, I don't understand how that can be untenable and stable at the same time?

Mr. David Doyle

The future trajectory? The particular point that we were ... you were at at that stage was, we had one of the lowest debt ratios in Europe. So, if the downturn had been a small downturn, you would have been able to cope with that. So from that point of view, some relative position of finance strength, apparently.

Can I just for clarification? The famous document that we discussed before with the note from you about Mr. Trichet, I don't want to discuss the document per se, I'm just trying to clarify, this was bullet points for the Cabinet on 28 September 2008, is that correct? That was a Cabinet meeting that took place therefore. on 28 September. The day before ... I'm sorry, I'm not ... or was it the morning ... for the following morning, I'm not clear?

Mr. David Doyle

My recollection is that in the run up to the budgets the Cabinet would be in session most weekends just immediately before a budget. So I'm assuming that, I think it was, a Cabinet meeting to go through the options for a very difficult budget. And it was written at 9 o'clock in the morning or thereabouts.

Yes, that would have been the Sunday morning?

Mr. David Doyle

Yes.

Yes, okay. I'm ... just wanted to clarify that.

And then finally if I may, in a separate point, much has been written and through freedom of information and so on and shown, the various meetings that the Minister for Finance would have had with various bankers and various property developers and so on. During his tenure as Minister for Finance, when you were the Secretary General, did you ever attend any of those meetings with the Minister for Finance, when he would have been meeting with bankers or ... and-or property developers? And-----

Mr. David Doyle

Which Minister are you talking about now, Senator?

I'm talking about Mr. Cowen. And I'm also trying to find out if you know ... can you recall when you learned about the Maple Ten? At what point did you learn-----

Mr. David Doyle

Well let's deal with the first point in relation to meetings with developers and bankers. If you're talking about a particular meeting-----

The second question-----

The second question; I don't want to know anything about the details. I just want to know-----

Well, don't be asking it, so, if you don't want to know anything about it.

No, but I only want to know when Mr. Doyle found out. I don't want to know any of the detail about it but I think we are entitled to ask when he discovered, or when he found out, that we don't need to know the rest of anything. But we are entitled to ask that, I believe, without declaring any-----

I'll let Mr. Doyle to make the judgment of responding to that now.

Anyway just-----

Mr. David Doyle

Will I deal with the first part-----

You can.

Mr. David Doyle

-----of the question first?

Mr. David Doyle

Yes. Every Minister for Finance that I ever dealt with had meetings with bankers and developers. And usually there would be an official there. Every Minister for Finance that I ever dealt with, which goes back to probably ... well, I don't know was I there when Richie Ryan was there, but it goes way back anyway.

Or privately.

Mr. David Doyle

They had ... they had meetings socially, in social settings. And if you're referring to a particular meeting in 2008 down in Druid's Glen, there was nobody from the Department at that. I don't know-----

But you may have attended-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----was Minister Cowen, was he even the Minister and I forget-----

But you may have attended some meetings.

Mr. David Doyle

But I wouldn't see anything unusual about-----

No, I wasn't ... I just asked-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----a Minister ... it would be perfectly respectable for a Minister to meet developers, bankers, both formally in the Department and at social occasions.

Okay. Thank you. Deputy Doherty.

Sorry, Chairman, did you make a ruling on-----

Mr. David Doyle

There was the other ... the other question-----

I would always give members advice that when they move into an area that is somewhat sort of eyebrow raising for me-----

-----that they would discuss that with legal before we actually move into that area.

I don't know if you've done that, Deputy ... or, Senator.

No, because I wasn't looking for anything except the timing. That's all.

But it's still ... it's still an eyebrow raising moment for me if you're inside in that space and-----

I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to accuse you. I was-----

-----and I would ask people to talk to legal before. I don't know where you're going with it.

That's it. That's all I wanted to know, was when did he find out. That's it. I don't want to know any more than that.

Mr. David Doyle

Well, that may be material to some of the issues that are in progress at the moment.

Okay. Thank you.

Okay. Thanks for that answer. We're moving on, okay. Deputy Doherty.

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh, agus fáilte ag an coiste, tUasal Doyle. Can you describe the general nature of the advices, if any, that you provided to the Minister and the Government on the risks involved and especially the growing dependency on construction-related economic activity and tax revenues? And, Mr. Doyle, can you refer in your response to the frequencies of such advice and the nature of supporting analysis, if any?

Mr. David Doyle

Now, are you talking about the period since I was appointed or just to take a broad retrospective view?

As general secretary.

Mr. David Doyle

As general secretary. Well, as general secretary, if you look at pre-budget outlook documents, memoranda for Government, stability pact updates, you will see that the Department was concerned about the state of the industry. As I said, in my opening statement, the Department was wrong to accept the general consensus that the industry was facing a gradual reduction to sustainable levels. In the run up to the 2007 election ... sorry, Freudian slip - budget, it was totally different.

Some people believe they're connected, but anyway.

Mr. David Doyle

There was a lot of concern that ... if you recall, the housing market had started to slide the previous ... the ... yes, around about that time. So there was a lot of worry that the construction industry was going to contract. And, on the one hand, you had ambition of the political system, taken at its widest, to have the best possible intervention in a budget in terms of improved public services and appropriate levels of taxation. And we were arguing for a very much lighter approach because our concern was that while we were exhibiting high growth rates at the time, that the possibility ... probability was that that was going to tail significantly. I think at the time, I was concerned myself that we could have been facing a recession. Now, a recession would be a very technical thing, a small drop in growth. We never envisaged a depression.

You state that this stress test, in your opening statement, conducted by the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator weren't based on the worst-case scenarios. Did the Department have concerns, or not, about the adequacy of these tests at the time and were those concerns expressed to the Central Bank or to the regulator?

Mr. David Doyle

As I said at the outset, it was a matter of regret that the Department, over that entire period, took the assessment of the Central Bank and the regulator in relation to the true state of the financial services.

The Department should have been more ... questioning.

I heard your comments in that the question specifically is, did you have concerns in relation to the adequacy of the stress tests and if you did at the time, did you ... make that, did you make your views aware to the Central Bank or regulator?

Mr. David Doyle

My understanding is the Department didn't have those concerns, that they regarded the people down in Dame Street as the experts in the financial sector and the markets and knew what was going on in the banks. The traditional stance in relation to the Central Bank and the regulator in the Department was to regard them as completely autonomous and independent, and-----

You didn't have the concerns so that's the way ... I'll move on to the next question. You were a board member of the Central Bank ... you were the Secretary General of the Department of Finance, you had a bird's eye view in relation to both prudential supervision, the stability of the financial sector, and also the issues in relation to the Department. Given everything that was happening in public, and I'll just mention a number of them. We had, in January of 2008, we had UBS telling their investors to sell shares in Anglo Irish Bank; we had Fitch coming out with critique in relation to Anglo Irish Bank; we had an attack by the markets in relation to the banking sector; we had the issue that was revealed sometime at least round February-March in relation to the contracts for difference issue in Anglo Irish Bank. We had all of that and the construction and obviously the Central Bank had the whole access to information in terms of concentration of lending in the property sector, and concentration of individuals. Why did you, or can you convince us otherwise, take no action to deal with the tsunami that was facing the Irish State in relation to this?

Mr. David Doyle

You're talking about 2008 now-----

I'm talking about any time when you were on the board of the Central Bank and general secretary to the Department of Finance, why didn't you do anything to try and stem the problems that the people in that room, on the night of the guarantee, faced?

Mr. David Doyle

Can I go back to what I said at the beginning in relation to one of the remarks that Patrick Honohan made when he was in here? And I'll just ... I hope I got it right-----

If you had a bright idea, it was too late in 2006. My question to you, Mr. Doyle, is did you even have a bright idea after 2006?

Be mindful of the language now, Deputy.

I'm sorry, I think the quote was put to me, or was about to be put to me and has been put to the committee beforehand.

Mr. David Doyle

I didn't have a bright idea. The lending had all been incurred. The problem, as Patrick said, was sitting in there waiting to pop out. What I did hear at the Central Bank was a lot of concern about potential exposure in the market, but I also heard was the ... the risk analysis that they did in their financial stability reports in late 2006 and late 2007 which said, "Yes we're concerned, yes there looks like the property is overvalued ... we've looked at this and our conclusion is that even with a market correction, the banks are well placed to cope with the pressures that could emerge.'' As I said, we were at fault for accepting that analysis.

You gave evidence to the committee in relation to previous questioning about the Merrill Lynch analysis, and the document about €8.5 billion capital for Anglo after ... after capital, and about €2 billion for Nationwide. And you mentioned that Merrill Lynch said this is tip of the finger tips, or some language of that sort. Top of the finger tips data, it wasn't an in-depth data. The question I'm really putting to you is, given your position as general secretary of the Department of Finance for a number of years, given your position as a board member of the Central Bank, do you think it was appropriate that we had to rely on that type of tip of the finger tips data, or whatever suggestion that you had, no real in-depth analysis of where the losses could be in the banks? Could a bright idea not have been, to look in at the start of 2008, to send a team into Anglo Irish Bank when the markets were saying there was going to be losses in terms of their loan book, and actually assess that? So there would at least be a bit more concrete data on the table when the decision had to be taken on the night.

Mr. David Doyle

It would've been better if the regulator had done that, but the noises that were coming to the Department from the regulator from the financial reports the banks were producing right throughout 2008 is, "Everything in garden was rosy; they were making big profits."

You believed all that?

Mr. David Doyle

There were a lot of people believed it and ... the Central Bank, the regulator, was mistaken to believe it, and I regret that we believed it.

Okay. Can I ask you, on the night of the guarantee - forget about whether they were insolvent or not, because I think that's some ... a bit of semantics, because solvency is not just solvent on that point in time, it's the risk of solvency in the future - was there any concern raised in the meetings that took place on the night of guarantee in relation to the risk of solvency of either Nationwide or Anglo Irish Bank?

Mr. David Doyle

There was. There was an immediate consideration that illiquidity would rapidly become insolvency.

I understand that. I'm not talking about the danger of an illiquid bank becoming insolvent. I'm talking about an analysis from some financial institutions or others that the banks themselves, given the loan losses, not the illiquid nature of the bank, could be insolvent in the future.

Mr. David Doyle

Well, that debate around nationalisation reflected the concern that there could be a problem emerging. And if that problem emerged, that would damage the market.

Mr. David Doyle

So the argument that they should be nationalised related to the concern about the quality of the loan book, but in the case of AIB, Bank of Ireland, EBS, Irish Life and Permanent, there was no such concern. There was a concern about Anglo and Nationwide.

And was that ... you mentioned problems, because you had problems arising and so on in the past and in evidence that you've given, was that named in the meetings, as in, "There is a potential risk of Anglo Irish Bank or Irish Nationwide becoming insolvent as a result of loan losses and its lending?" Was words to that effect mentioned by anybody in any of those meetings?

Mr. David Doyle

That would've ... that was the raison d'être for the argument for nationalisation. They needed to be taken out ... that, you know, in simple terms.

Can I ask you-----

You should wrap up now, Deputy, shortly.

Okay. Can I ask you in relation to the guarantee itself ... and explain this to me because I've not been ... we've not been able to get this at the committee so far. The guarantee was announced by Government. When did the banks, legally ... when were we contracted, bound by the guarantee? There's evidence here in the book, I think, which talks about ... it's page 26, Vol. 3, which says that on Friday, 24 October, it was in "[the] order [to designate] the first group of banks and building societies to participate in the Credit Institutions (Financial Support) Scheme 2008 ..." was made on Friday, 24 October 2008. It's also the same month where the Minister starts to make provision for contingent capital to be made available to the banks. So my question to you is: were we actually, as a State, legally bound by a guarantee on the night of the guarantee, or was it when the banks signed up to the scheme and the order was signed on the 24th? And at that stage, did we know that these banks would be requiring at least some capital?

Mr. David Doyle

To be honest with you, Deputy, I couldn't give you a legal answer to that. When the announcement was made, there was a moral statement made. The legislation, I think, was passed on the 3rd. It was introduced the next day and I think it was passed within a day or two. I can get a precise answer for you from the Department for that, or you can ask Kevin - he will know on the spot - when he's in.

And the capital ... when did you begin to know that capital would be needed? Did you know on the night of the guarantee that at least some capital would be needed for these institutions or how soon did you know, with the first date we have here is sometime at the end of the October?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, on the night of the guarantee, what we knew is that you had taken a step which was supposed to ensure financial stability, and everything associated with that in terms of the legal instruments that you mentioned, negotiation with Europe for clearance of the guarantee, dealing with people coming in, saying, "We want to be in it too," and so on, and so on, that takes up ... did take some time, but I think I saw in Kevin's document a note that he sent to the Central Bank, the NTMA, and our legal people, and Merrill Lynch and so on to the effect that we need to lift our heads now and start looking at options in relation to the strategic direction of the banks, whether any of them needed capitalisation and so on. So it was actioned from that point on, once the smoke had cleared on the outcome of the guarantee, the initial smoke.

Thank you. Deputy MacSharry.

Thanks. Thanks, Mr. Doyle, for being here. Can I ask ... the Central Bank financial stability reports were flagging risks to the financial system as early as September 2004, and what action, if any, was taken by the Department of Finance in response to these reports?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, in 2004, I can't comment. When I was on the board-----

You did work in the Department at that stage, did you?

Mr. David Doyle

I did. I wasn't dealing with banking; I was dealing with spending.

Have you a view, while we have you here?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, I have ... as I've ... I've given my view in my opening statement today, which I think covers the decade prior to 2008, in which I said that I felt that the regulator didn't get involved adequately in assessing the real position surrounding the loan books of the banks. They accepted too readily the analysis that the banks made, that they were making huge profits, which went on over quite a number of years.

You did mention that, in fairness, earlier on. But I suppose what I want to get at here-----

Mr. David Doyle

The Central Bank would have been largely reliant on the view of the banks and the Financial Regulator. You had people doing their stability report who said there are risks, but there's no fundamental issues arising, and there's no threat to financial stability. So the Department didn't, on foot of that, take action. What it did do in relation to the brief the Department had on the fiscal front was to urge caution and moderation on spending and taxation.

So in 2004 ... sorry, after 2004 and the IMF and the OECD and ECOFIN and various bodies were recommending tighter fiscal stance, and you spoke a little bit about that, would you have a view, in terms of your own opinion of the Central Bank's recommendations to the Minister that they weren't more forceful at that time, is there any view you'd like to give on that?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, I think ... the recommendations to the Minister came in the form of a letter once a year from the Governor to the Minister separately from very, very periodic visits to the Minister by the Governor on a one-on-one basis at which home truths, I'm sure, were shared. But in relation to the-----

And yourself. you used to-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----in relation to the letters that came in to the Minister from the Governor on behalf of the board right over that decade, they were all based around, "You must run a tighter ship on expenditure and taxation, and run a better fiscal balance." And it was a mistake not ... for the Department not to examine what was going on in the credit market and to seek to have the Central Bank make an intervention.

You were a director of the ... you sat on the board of the Central Bank for the period that you were secretary?

Mr. David Doyle

From the middle of 2006.

From the middle of 2006 on. And there were six members of that board that were also on the board of the regulator; isn't that correct?

Mr. David Doyle

Approximately, yes.

And would you have been aware at all that in the period up to your tenure and the time that you would have finished up as director general ... as Secretary General that no action was ever taken by the regulator or the Central Bank following any prudential regulatory breach by a financial institution?

Mr. David Doyle

I'm not sure that I was aware that they took no action. We are talking about middle 2006 to the end of 2009.

Mr. David Doyle

I am aware that there's a criticism that the bank, the Central Bank/regulator ... it ended up as a single organisation, but ... they were criticised for not being sufficiently interventionist, particularly in relation to one institution, which I don't think ... I'm not sure whether it has been named or not, and that they were overly concerned about legal exposures. So there was ... there is that criticism, but I am aware that, in 2006, they decided to tighten up on the capital adequacy requirements for 100% mortgages. There was action in 2007. That was too little, too late. In relation to imposition of fines, I do recall them imposing fines on one particular organisation which I, I don't propose to mention, Chairman, on foot of an issue that was brought to them by the auditor of that organisation, and that, as I understand, was actioned and might have led to some penalties; and there were other penalties emerged. But there was no ... like, in relation to the big issue of what was happening this big explosion in credit-----

When somebody's in breach ... somebody did make a breach, there was no action taken: you weren't aware of that - or were you?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, I'm saying that I was aware of some action in particular instances, but, if there were breaches of regulation-----

Mr. David Doyle

That I ... yes, well, I'd have to know what they were, and was it the case that there was absolutely no intervention?

Would it suffice to say that there were-----

Mr. David Doyle

Okay.

-----and would it suffice also to say that it's a matter of evidence here that there was no action taken against any prudential regulatory breach? Does that surprise you, and why do you think you didn't know that if you were a director of the Central Bank?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, I'm not saying that ... I, I mean, I'm saying that I'm aware there was measures taken for potential regulatory breach - at least one or two that I'm aware of. Maybe I'm being Jesuitical, on that point. I'm also aware of the criticism that the regulator wasn't sufficiently determined in relation to the market, was too deferential ... that's the word.

Did you know Tom O'Connell, the chief economist in the Central Bank?

Mr. David Doyle

I met the guy a couple of times.

Did you ever liaise with him, or have an exchange with him about the economy, what needed to be done, what was being done, the state of affairs in banks, or any aspects of the economy?

Mr. David Doyle

I didn't have any contract with Tom outside the board, outside the Central Bank. He would have interfaced with the Department, with the head of the economic desk, I'm sure, in relation to meetings of the board. I would have seen, Mr. O'Connell presenting papers, I'm sure, in the context of the stability report.

Did he ever when presenting papers, highlight his major concerns for the situation, from a banking regulatory perspective? Because he has given evidence to the committee, he had an extraordinary difficulty in getting his message across to board level.

Mr. David Doyle

I have no recollection of documents being presented and the case being made that those documents were not agreed with, and that there was some effort made to stop any individual at the board, who appeared before the board, making their own views clearly known to the board; they had the floor.

They had the floor, okay, good. Can I ask you about your relationship with Ministers of the day? Was it difficult to get your point across if, for example, a Minister had view A, and you had an alternative view, because you felt that the Minister's view was wrong? Did you find any of the line Ministers that you dealt with in finance particularly difficult in that regard, or were they very open to your advice?

Mr. David Doyle

I'd honestly, say, Senator, I never had that difficulty. And Ministers ... and Ministers can be extremely robust and I think, on occasion, I would be myself, if I needed to be.

Good, can I also ask and I asked your predecessor earlier on, in your period as secretary of the Department, did you feel that there was any sectoral interest that had the leg of Government or the ear of the Minister or the Taoiseach to the extent that it had an unhealthy influence on budgetary preparations, such as health was put forward as something that had a very significant input by your predecessor in the earlier session. Did you have any view on that?

Mr. David Doyle

Sectoral interests, now, outside the role of Ministers and Departments?

Yes, we spoke previously to your predecessor and following on from some documentation which was a budget submission by the IAVI, I think, in that instance, and I asked, "Did this happen regularly?" He said he had checked. In fact, in the current year and there seem to have been 1,200 such representations made pre-budget and just in line with that, I was asking him, "Was there any unhealthy level of contact or influence of a particular sector over another that could influence policy?" Such as, I suppose, in this instance, either financial services in banks or property.

Mr. David Doyle

I can honestly say that every interest group that came into the Department with their submissions or in to meet a Minister were given a fair hearing but I never saw or never picked up on a Minister ... any Minister paying undue deference to any particular group.

Mr. David Doyle

Every Minister, without exception, gave them a fair hearing, listened to their point of view, considered the issue objectively, independently afterwards.

And if I could just ask you to confirm very finally and you did ... you did make reference to it in your opening statement. Do you recall any representations being made by politicians or sectoral interests for less expenditure or more taxation, during the period you were Secretary General?

Mr. David Doyle

No.

Thank you very much. Deputy Murphy.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Mr. Doyle. So, a few brief questions following on from your earlier evidence today. You said earlier on that accepting the consensus view of the soft landing was a mistake. But were you not a part of formulating that consensus view ... in that language soft landing? Because we heard in evidence from Tom O'Connell about the 2007 financial stability report which talked about favouring a soft landing over a hard landing. Professor Honohan told us that there was no evidence in that report and there is none to back up that assertion and Mr. O'Connell told us that that language came from the board, which you sat on at the time. Do you remember that conversation about putting that language into the document?

Mr. David Doyle

I don't recall that ... I've a vague recollection of being sent a draft of some document by Tom O'Connell, whether it was 2007 or 2006, I don't know or what the document was. Following a discussion of the board, board members might be sent documents that want to ... "Is this okay? Does it reflect your views?" I might have put something in and I recall the only instance I ever got that was I sent it back to them and said, "You have editorial control."

Because according to Mr. O'Connell, the editorial control was actually exercised by the board in a one-day or two-day session during which they would finalise the language for the financial stability report and that the language-----

Mr. David Doyle

The board would discuss it but the final editorial control, in that sense, would be the Governor but he would try to reflect what was going on at the board but I ... I don't recall a discussion at the board myself to the effect that soft landing is the only credible scenario.

But do you recall receiving that first draft and-----

Mr. David Doyle

Oh, yes.

-----and seeing the soft landing language and taking comfort in it?

Mr. David Doyle

I don't, I don't to be honest with you.

You said earlier on that September was the crisis point but there were earlier crises in 2008 and one in particular was the St. Patrick's weekend-----

Mr. David Doyle

Yes.

----- in March of that year. At that point, one bank, no one would lend to one bank in the Irish economy. In another bank, no Irish bank would lend to. The Governor and the Financial Regulator were approaching each of the banks and asking them to lend to each other. That was the green jersey agenda. €20 billion had been wiped off bank shares in Ireland since the beginning of the year and there was a feared run on one bank, which led to intervention. So why not move in then? Why not take the opportunity then to seek a resolution?

Mr. David Doyle

For a start, the ... there definitely was confusion in the minds of the banks themselves about the ... what was the driving force for that speculation and threatened runs and adverse comment. Was it international speculation, was it caused by some of the speculation on shares that was going on that we ... would be difficult to go through? Was it based on analytical evidence on what the true story in the banks was or was it just an Irish ... an anti-Irish story? Or did it reflect the common things that were happening across Europe, the UK, the massive downward trend in share prices generally? Now, the trend in Irish share prices was more. But there was ... there was clouded thinking there. There was a cloud, you know, was there a real Irish problem or was it an international problem?

That's just the potential share run, though. That's almost a crisis point in itself. At the end of the first few months of the year, which had already seen a number of mini-crises and I listed them out, the different things that were happening. Banks weren't lending to Irish banks. Irish banks weren't each other. The Financial Regulator and the Governor were going to the banks asking them to lend to each other. And they were or were not ignoring them. So, why not take the opportunity then and it's come up briefly raised by my colleagues, why not step in then and make a resolution?

Mr. David Doyle

With the guarantee, with capital, with nationalisation-----

With anything that's already been discussed by the domestic standing group since the summer of the previous year.

Mr. David Doyle

Yes. Well-----

You're anticipating something, why not take an opportunity then?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, it's a viewpoint that maybe an intervention ... there was, there was no evidence being produced by, by the banks themselves that an intervention was necessary or appropriate. There was no analysis from the regulator or the Central Bank that an actual intervention was necessary. There was stand-by arrangements being pushed through that consultative process with the bank and the regulator and the Department to prepare for an event, an event in the future. The event hadn't crystalised. Possibly, if you had stepped forward with an announcement at the time that the Government was going to stand behind the banks and provide capital, that might have calmed the market down. But the reality ... like what the real problem was that when it came to the crunch and the problem was created by the explosion increase, explosive increase, in credit rolled out by the banks - when it came to the crunch, they assets that they had lined up, particularly on the development side weren't remotely near worth what their loans that they should ... for those assets.

I don't want to go over old ground Mr. Doyle, I'm actually running out of time. So I will just move on to ... just briefly, were any decisions taken at that Cabinet meeting on 28 September, the Sunday meeting in 2008? Any decisions by Cabinet in relation to the banks.

Mr. David Doyle

I don't know. I've read what Kevin says about that but I don't know. I was never informed. In fact, there was never-----

But ... but if Cabinet makes a decision, you would be informed?

Mr. David Doyle

About the banks now?

Mr. David Doyle

Yes, well, not always. The Cabinet could have a discussion, arrive at a preliminary view, arrive at a decision in principle they are going to think about it. They are not going to unnecessarily release it ... they'll release a decision when they've made a final decision. So, I mean, I realise what's in Kevin's document.

But I wasn't aware, I wasn't made aware that they had, as Kevin's suggesting, made some sort of a decision in principle.

Thank you. Earlier on in evidence you were talking about the Minister and the Taoiseach going into a room and coming back out and saying, "We're going for a guarantee and not nationalisation", and you used the words "for the moment". So, was it implied that nationalisation was coming, shortly, down the line?

Mr. David Doyle

Well ... the nationalisation, if it had been decided, wasn't going to happen that night, but it would have taken a couple of days to put in place. It's a messy arrangement, the preference of the bank and the regulator was to do it at a weekend. Now, as I said, my recollection is that is what the Taoiseach said.

Mr. David Doyle

I haven't seen it written anywhere but that's my recollection.

From your recollection-----

Mr. David Doyle

Whether he meant ... whether he did, in fact, say that ... I'm basing that on a non-contemporaneous note that I prepared myself about two years ago about the night. And that was my recollection. I'm trying to dredge it up from my subconsciousness and it's what happened on the night. And I noted that in that particular non-contemporaneous account, which is a personal one.

But if that ... even if that isn't your recollection or even if it isn't accurate, does it infer that you were expecting nationalisation to come shortly after the guarantee decision?

Mr. David Doyle

It wasn't being ruled out.

It wasn't being ruled out.

Mr. David Doyle

That's ... that's my interpretation on it.

Okay, thank you. Just two other brief questions. Were you aware of the over-exposure of the banks to commercial property from 2006, when you took over as Secretary General at the Department of Finance?

Mr. David Doyle

I was aware from what the Central Bank work was being done that the scale of property exposure was significant. Was I aware that they were issuing loans without adequate appraisal of the valuation, the net worth of the individuals, the cross-collateral, the personal wealth, other pledged assets, inadequate documentation-----

I said,"Were you aware of the exposure?", though, which was the question.

Mr. David Doyle

I was aware of the exposure but-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----I would have always assumed that the banks were being run on a sensible basis, that if they were lending money to David Doyle for €100 million that they would check out David Doyle and expect David Doyle to put up significant equity, that in return for lending David Doyle €80 million or whatever that I would have sufficient assets behind me to back that up. I would have checked out the exposures of David Doyle to other banks ... now all of these things were going on.

Yes, but surely the point of the whole regulatory infrastructure assumes that you can't just trust the banks, so when you became aware of that over-exposure, what did you do about it to satisfy yourself that it wasn't a risk to the economy or to the banking system?

Mr. David Doyle

I don't think I said ... I may ... I didn't intend to say I was aware of over-exposure. I was aware of the exposure.

The exposure. And you didn't consider it an over-exposure?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, what we're ... what the analysis that the industry and the Financial Regulator were presenting was that the overall exposures of the banks still left them in a profitable, solvent, liquid and well-managed state. That was the story. As I said originally at the outset, it is a matter of regret that the Department accepted that analysis of the banks, the regulator and the Central Bank.

Okay, thank you. Thank you Chair.

Thank you very much. I'm just going to move to wrapping things up. I have just one or two questions that remain outstanding and I just need to round off some matters with you as well, and then I'll invite the two leads and bring matters to a conclusion. If there is anything you'd further like to add at that time, Mr. Doyle, you are more than welcome to. If I could just return to the issue or, or get into the area of the troika bailout programme and Ireland's contribution to it. The bailout programme was of €85 billion, €17.5 billion came from a National Pensions Reserve Fund and that's excluding bond redemptions from NAMA disposals. Could you maybe please elaborate to the committee the main features of the discussions with the troika, bilaterally with our EU partners and particular, if the €17.5 billion, as mentioned with regard to the National Pensions Reserve Fund, was presented as a precondition for assistance in that programme?

Mr. David Doyle

I'm sorry, Chairman, but I ... I can't answer those questions because that all happened after I retired.

Mr. David Doyle

But Kevin is coming in and he's the man on that.

And ... and you have no information in that regard, no?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, the only information I would have in relation to the National Pensions Reserve Fund, what happened behind it ... when I was leaving, there was a significant cash reserve there and the conclusion of the Minister - with the advice of the Department - was that that cash reserve, while it was supposed to be for the longer term, needed to be used in the emergency that we had and he took steps to ... I think to provide for directed ... directive investment powers in relation to the fund. So, obviously that translated into action later on.

Okay. On the eve of the guarantee, was there a sum put on how much Anglo would cost if it were nationalised or during that broader discussion period?

Mr. David Doyle

No, the ... the legislation for ... for nationalisation of Anglo was ... was centred around stepping in as a shareholder, as it were, you would take responsibility for collecting the value of all the loans and you were going to stand behind the people that had loaned money to the bank.

Okay, okay.

Mr. David Doyle

You weren't going to stand behind the shareholders. The shareholders were not going to be compensated for any historic value. They had essentially almost been wiped out at that point. But there was a billion apparent capital value in Anglo around that time, on the basis of the shared value, and there was-----

But ... but wiping out the shareholders, yes-----

Mr. David Doyle

Sorry, just to finish on this. There was a mechanism envisaged in the draft legislation to ... to deal with the shareholder residual value and a process of assessment and determination and appeal and so on, and that's all in the legislation ... in the January legislation. But from ... from, as I said, from the middle of October on, Kevin and his team moved on to considering what are the real financial needs of Anglo. And the initial figure that was put on that was about a billion and a half. I recall the company asserting, throughout that last quarter, that a billion in extra capital will see them right and they were confident that major investors were going to supply that ... that equity. So when ... when the State did move in to nationalise, the quantification of the likely capital hadn't been determined. The Government nationalised to take Anglo off the agenda and to stand behind the banking system.

But we ... we know all that happened and it happened after your tenure. I want to come back to your tenure, which is, on that eve ... was a costing put on how much it would cost to nationalise Anglo? You say ... you've indicated there that part of the nationalisation process would be to take out the shareholder base. That's one cost eliminated immediately. There's also the borrowings that ... and the lending exposure that Anglo had. So were you ... was there discussions of that nature as to how much Anglo ... it would cost to nationalise it? At the guarantee time, now.

Mr. David Doyle

The cost of nationalisation. There was no ... there was no figure put on it because what the Government was ... was going to contemplate at that time ... it was standing in to stop the ... the bank sinking. There was a realisation that there ... there might be a need for financial strength and the company had been saying it needed about a billion and it was confident. So, that was the figure. As events unfolded, that figure became unreal.

I still don't understand and I'll just repeat the question once more and I will, maybe, press you to answer it.

Was there a cost put on ... you've confirmed earlier this evening that there was specific legislation with Anglo in mind with regard to its nationalisation. In that period, was there any costing put on what this action would cost if we were to enable this draft legislation into a bill to deal with this bank? I am not talking about the year after; I am talking about during your term.

Mr. David Doyle

During my time.

During the guarantee period.

Mr. David Doyle

On the night around my time. On the night, no. The Government was contemplating stepping in to rescue it.

Sorry, but I have to force you here now. I try not to interrupt, Mr. Doyle, but we know that a Bill was prepared. What I am asking is you, you said that everybody was cognisant of it but it wasn't on the table. Were people cognisant of the figure in their head even though it might not have been on the table and if they were, could you inform us what the figure was?

Mr. David Doyle

That night, no. There is a longer answer but-----

Okay. I will give you time for a longer answer if you give me a figure.

Mr. David Doyle

I will give you a longer answer with a bigger figure.

I need a figure. You can talk all day if you want but do you have a figure at the end of it?

Mr. David Doyle

The first big figure that emerged was the following April, May, June - I can't remember the exact date - when a figure of, when you had the... It had been nationalised, you had a new chairman.

We will cover this with Mr. Cardiff tomorrow because that's during his tenure; it's not during yours.

Mr. David Doyle

I was still there but Kevin is in a much better position to explain it because he has it all comprehensively in his document. There was a need, given everything that had happened, with all the events of December 2008, a further loss in market confidence, a new board, a new approach had been taken to look at what the reality behind that bank was, and quantifications being reached. I think there was a figure of €4.5 billion or €5 billion capital, provided before the summer, and further large figures after that.

I will wrap up with this. Just on the night of the banking guarantee, the question has it been solvent or not solvent, the proposition was put forward, I think, by Mr. Trichet when we met with him because the State were guaranteeing them they were de facto solvent, because the State was solvent. Would you concur with that?

Mr. David Doyle

That they were all solvent?

Because the State was now guaranteeing them they were de facto solvent.

Mr. David Doyle

What the State was guaranteeing was borrowing. To conclude that they were all solvent, you would have to be absolutely certain that the assets were in each company to back up those loan exposures. The fact that they were being guaranteed meant that if a deficit arose due to solvency, that the State would step in and provide capital. So, in that broad sense, what he said is right.

So they were de facto solvent because the State was now standing behind them?

Mr. David Doyle

Yes.

Did the banks in that regard remain solvent from September 2008 up to the end of your tenure as Secretary General of the Department of Finance?

Mr. David Doyle

Capital had to be provided for them, that was to strengthen their capital position, not to address an insolvency. So my recollection is that the insolvency positions ... the insolvency position ... I think in fact if you look at the whole period since, none of them were determined to be insolvent because capital was provided.

The State was standing behind them and the State was solvent. So I'll repeat the question to you. Did the banks remain solvent right up until the end of your tenure as Secretary General of the Department of Finance?

Mr. David Doyle

On the definition of solvency on the basis that you outlined, yes.

Can I then return to the e-mail that you introduced earlier this afternoon and it's the correspondence to William Beausang from Brendan McDonagh? It's the third paragraph of it; actually I think it's the fourth paragraph of it. This is actually, I think, is in the Beausang documents but you actually introduced it this afternoon. You are familiar with the e-mail that you were talking about earlier today yes?

Mr. David Doyle

That's the one of 11 October?

Yes, that's the one, the one of 11 October '08. That's it. In the ... in the fourth paragraph of that, it says - one second there now - "Surely the objective of the guarantee of" ... and this is October '08 now, I'll remind.

Surely the objective of the guarantee of this dated subordinated debt from our point of view is to give the covered institutions the ability to access at least two-year term funding to reduce their reliance on short-term funding, thereby avoiding the liquidity squeeze. If any covered institution was to issue term debt with a maturity longer than two years, then the market would want to be compensated for that by an appropriate step up in interest rate pricing and that would be entirely commercial."

So basically what they're saying there is that the guarantee is going to be called in, or would be called in in that regard. So, can I put the question to you, Mr. Doyle: did this structure or design of the banking guarantee, along with the period of duration as outlined here, have any relationship to the Irish State entering a bailout programme two years and two months later, after the banking guarantee had expired?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, the bailout happened about ten months after I left-----

Yes, but the architecture-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----so------

And I pitched my question very clearly now to your term in the way that it was designed and set up and all the rest.

Mr. David Doyle

It played a part. It played a part.

To what extent?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, the guarantee said that the Government was going to stand behind the banks to stop them collapsing and ruining the country; that had a price. The price of not doing that, of letting them fail and ruin the country would have been far greater, so if you're subtracting the answer to that second bit from the first bit, it didn't have a cost, but there was a huge cost and the cost was caused by that drastic increase in lending by the banks. The alternative would have been a nightmare for the country.

And we'll try to get our head around as to what the guarantee or not guarantee options actually were as this inquiry commences, but we do know a guarantee was put in place, we do know it was of a particular construction and design and the question I'm putting to you is: did the structure or design of the banking guarantee, along with the period of duration, which was as outlined in the e-mail that you provided, or introduced into discussions this evening, the ... have any relationship to the Irish State entering a bailout programme, or an assistant programme, as it was called, two years and two months later?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, on the narrow issue of subordinated debt, it wasn't ... it wasn't critical. Most of that subordinated debt-----

... the duration and the time, would that be considered-----

Mr. David Doyle

Most of the subordinated debt was wiped out.

Forget about the duration and ... or, sorry, forget about the subordinated debt, but the duration period.

Mr. David Doyle

Well, that's fine. On the general implications of the guarantee-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----once it became established, post the really ... the biggest ... the big exposures, realisation about the exposures happened post-NAMA loan transfers and valuations. A huge bill emerged. On foot ... as a result of the Government deciding it's going to stand behind the banks, that deficit had to be made good and that was part of ... of the bailout.

Final question. Was the Irish State solvent in the immediate period prior to the bailout programme commencing?

Mr. David Doyle

In my opinion, it was, in the immediate period ... we're talking about 2010. It had a very much increased debt burden. In terms of------

Structural deficit of about €30 billion as well.

Mr. David Doyle

In terms of the sustainability of that debt problem, if the conclusion was that that debt burden, the overall debt burden, wasn't going to be sustainable in future years through economic recovery and achieving a better budget balance, then the debt would have continued to deteriorate and that would be a sort of a Government insolvency-----

But the assistant programme indicated a €30 billion structural deficit that had to be corrected over a period of time. That's what the programme was about. So, did that ... does that imply or not that the Irish State was solvent?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, a structural deficit is something that ... it leads to an insolvency unless it's addressed.

So without the assistant programme, was the Irish State insolvent?

Mr. David Doyle

Without the ... without the rescue? Well, that depends on what was happening on the markets, would the Government be able to borrow funds, would it be able to correct the budget sufficiently to turn-----

The funds were at eight point odd percent at the time, that's what when ... we were approaching junk status on our bond yields at that time. They were gone over the 8% threshold.

Mr. David Doyle

Well, the bond yields were 15% a decade previously.

Once they went over 8%-----

Mr. David Doyle

Relative to what Germany was paying, 8% was a huge burden.

Okay. Thank you very much. We'll wrap up so with Deputy O'Donnell and then Deputy McGrath to conclude.

Mr. Doyle, would you be able to provide the committee with those non-contemporaneous that you've completed on the night of the guarantee?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, I've given them to my legal advisors and the Attorney General's office. I'd have to take direction from them on that.

Subject to clearance, you'd provide them to the-----

Mr. David Doyle

I've no problem myself.

Why was there no contemporaneous notes completed around the decision on the night of the guarantee? There appears to have been contemporaneous notes done on various other meetings but why was there no note done by you or your officials on the decision taken on the night of the guarantee?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, I think Kevin has a copy of his contemporaneous notes-----

Are they personal notes, now?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, they are notes; that's a record. There are also ... there are other records that I have seen of a privileged nature in relation to the night.

When you say privileged nature, what do you mean?

Mr. David Doyle

That would be communication between the Attorney General and the Taoiseach.

And are they ... do they form the ... in substance ... are they contemporaneous notes of the decision that was taken on to provide the blanket guarantee?

Mr. David Doyle

I don't think I'm free to comment on the content of any Attorney General communication. But it was the communication to the Taoiseach after the night about what transpired that night.

So there is a note there that indicates what happened on the night.

That note is in possession of the Attorney General, is it?

Mr. David Doyle

It's an Attorney General communication, yes, which is legally privileged.

Okay, and that is no ... well, the committee has, with the permission of the Taoiseach's office and Cabinet, got up a situation now where the Attorney General will be waiving a lot of his entitlements, so maybe that question can be referred to the AG when he comes in-----

Thank you, Chairman.

Or the then AG.

Okay. Thank you, Chairman.

Just on all the evidence that's been given, like, can you explain the gap here that back as early as 6 June and it's document 77 on Vol. 2 of your own documents, you're preparing legislation to nationalise, legislation for a bank, okay? Then even prior to that, on 24 April, the Department of Finance, page 21 ... document 21, Vol. 2, you're preparing ... your ... within your Department, you're looking to put in place a guarantee for institutions. So, it would appear as if you were doing some contingency planning, at least, what, nearly five months out? So the question I'm asking is, there appears to the ... in terms of resolution mechanism legislation, it was mentioned at some stage but it never seemed to get anywhere. Why did you get to a point on the night of the guarantee where ... or two quick questions, did you ... was it your understanding prior to the meeting the night of the guarantee that you would be nationalising Anglo? And, why was there no resolution mechanism legislation in place? How much did ye pay Merrill Lynch, and why did ye ignore the advice of Merrill Lynch and who was driving on the night of the guarantee ... the blanket guarantee would be put in place?

That's a lot of questions now, Deputy. Mr. Doyle?

They're a summation really, Chairman.

Mr. David Doyle

Well, I think Merrill Lynch were paid, as I saw on Kevin's note, something like €7 million for a year's work, which was a massive amount of work, massive price.

But you didn't-----

Mr. David Doyle

They gave their advice. The Government, Taoiseach and the Minister, with the input of the people that were there, considered that advice. The Taoiseach and the Minister made a decision brought it to Cabinet, they made a decision. That's what-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----they make decisions.

So was it a political decision or a financial decision?

Mr. David Doyle

It was a financial decision. I have a clear recollection of both the Taoiseach and Brian Lenihan saying to me that in their view this decision had to be reached regardless of the political consequences, that what they were trying to do was to do the right thing for the country at that time.

Why did you ignore the advice of Merrill Lynch?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, they had a view. The recommendation that came in from the Governor of the Central Bank, the chairman, chief executive, the regulator, was to take a different course. So that was the recommendation that was given to the Taoiseach and the Minister. I think when a Governor and chairman of a regulator and regulator and director general come in and give you advice as to what they think should be done, having touched base with the ECB, it's not advice that can be-----

So who drove the blanket guarantee? Who was driving the blanket guarantee policy on the ... before or on the night of the guarantee? Who was the prime driver of it?

Mr. David Doyle

The prime driver was the market. The market was taking money out of the banks-----

No, no, who was the individual-----

Mr. David Doyle

-----which was going to lead to a collapse.

Could I maybe reclarify your question? The shape of the particular ... like, there's multiples of guarantees that could be put in place and different structures of guarantees. The model of guarantee that was put in place. Is that what you're asking?

Who was driving that on the night of the guarantee, and what ... and the model that transpired?

Mr. David Doyle

Well, the model that transpired was a universal model. Apart from undated subordinated debt, everything else would be guaranteed. The view was that the guarantee had to be comprehensive and not leave room for doubt and further undermine-----

Whose view was that, Mr. Doyle? Whose view?

Mr. David Doyle

That was the general view - the Central Bank, the two main banks, as I recall. It had to be comprehensive.

Mr. David Doyle

In terms of who was driving it on the night, there were options put on the table. The Taoiseach was in charge. There was a robust debate. They were taking the decisions that they felt needed to be taken to save the banking system.

What advice did you give finally? What advice did you ... because, ultimately, you were the Secretary General of the Department of Finance. What advice did you give on the night of the guarantee to the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance?

Mr. David Doyle

My view was that the decision they were arriving on it was the right one. It wasn't a pleasant decision. It was going to be a very difficult outcome. We were in an impossible situation. Faced with the alternative - an economic and fiscal meltdown, with the huge economic consequences that would have for the country, left, right and centre, for public services that, if you had a collapse in the banking system, a collapse in funds available to the Government-----

It's a very simple question.

It's the final question. Deputy, final question.

Did you disagree then with the Minister for Finance and Kevin Cardiff on their view that Anglo should be nationalised?

Mr. David Doyle

I didn't ... I didn't ... I didn't disagree or I didn't agree. I listened to the views of the other parties in the room. The other parties in the room from the Central Bank and the regulator were of the view that the market conditions weren't right at that point to nationalise.

Thanks, Chair. Mr. Doyle, just picking up on what Deputy O'Donnell was saying there about Merrill Lynch, can I ask you, in your view, was there one clear recommendation from Merrill Lynch on the eve of the guarantee as to what action should be taken? We've all read the memos and reports and there's a lot of, "On the one hand and on the other hand." Was there one clear recommendation as to the action that the Government should take?

Mr. David Doyle

There was one clear recommendation and that recommendation was that the Government could not afford to let the banking system fail and that it had to step in with measures to ensure that the banking system didn't collapse.

And apart from that? In terms of options, say, to implement that?

Mr. David Doyle

Apart from that, there were a number of options put on the table. There was no ... what they said was, "There is no right answer." So, it was ... it was up to ... the Taoiseach and the Minister to decide which of those options they bring to Cabinet.

So, is it unfair to say that the decision taken was against the advice of Merrill Lynch? Or is it fair to say?

Mr. David Doyle

I don't ... parts of it ... if you read ... if you read the document ... parts of it they said they wouldn't support. But at various stages, you know, an option to guarantee everybody was there in the document. At another stage,. that was downplayed a bit, but, like, in the round, I don't think it would be fair to say that the Government took decisions contrary to the recommendations.

A number of weeks later, Mr. Doyle, Merrill Lynch presented some reconsiderations for recapitalising Irish financial institutions and, in essence, they estimated that, dependent on the level of impaired loans "cumulative capital requirements will range from €6.6 billion, at the current estimate at impairment rates, to a maximum of €13.1 billion", based on Merrill's own analysis, which takes account of PwC's stress testing for a worst-case scenario. They were only out by about €50 billion. Have you any comment on that?

Mr. David Doyle

They were out by €50 billion because of the events that flowed after that. The commercial property market continued to slide. That was the big impact on the banks, not the housing market, strangely enough, although that was a big impact. But the big issue was the development loan portfolio. The quantification of that ... was extremely slow coming, it didn't really ... it didn't come until NAMA became operational and they started to get the loan portfolios over and they saw precisely what was behind them or, more relevant, what wasn't behind them in many cases, and what the reality of the valuation ... the valuation of the property on the ground was. If they had had ... sight that all that was going to happen, combined with the international recession that was going on, combined with the collapse in domestic confidence, and investor confidence generally, they would have come up with a bigger figure, but they didn't.

Final question, Chair, is just on the issue of ... of fiscal policy in the Department during your tenure, Mr. Doyle. And Governor Honohan makes a number of criticisms, as you know, in terms of fiscal policy in his report. But there's one reference on page 30 of his report where he says: "And, in a final twist, real expenditure rose by over 11 per cent in both 2007 and 2008, an unfortunate late burst of spending which boosted the underlying deficit at almost the worst possible time." What was the advice that you were giving, at that time, to Government about spending, going into 2007 and going into 2008? The outturn was an increase of about 11%, in both years.

Mr. David Doyle

I have slightly different figures here myself. Well, maybe 11%. In 2007? For the 2007 budget?

Yes, well, I think it's outturn really.

Mr. David Doyle

Do yo want me to go into recommendations in terms of the outturn?

Mr. David Doyle

In 2007 - the 2007 budget - the recommended increase in current spending was about 7.5%

In the June budget strategy memo is it?

Mr. David Doyle

Yes, the outturn year on year was 12%. For capital expenditure, the recommended increase, from the notes I have, was 9.5%. The outturn was 20% in 2007. In 2008, the recommended current increase was 7% and the outturn was about 10%.

The recommendation on capital was 13%; the outcome was 16%. And there's a consistent pattern, if you look back over the years, of the Department urging moderation in relation to current outlays and the outturn, at the end of the day, being significantly ahead of that. On capital, we were positively disposed, I suppose, towards capital, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, because we had concluded at the end of the '90s that the country had a major infrastructural deficit, that there was an opportunity on the fiscal front because of the improvement that was happening to make significant investments in our capital, motorways and so on, and we felt that that opportunity had to be taken over the decade, early 2002 to 2012, because our feeling was that after that period, demographic pressures would start crowding out investment.

Just to clarify, when you said the recommended increase in expenditure, are you referring to the budget strategy memo from the summer, from June? Is that what you are referring to?

Mr. David Doyle

Yes, that's my understanding-----

Okay. Thank you.

Mr. David Doyle

-----from what I've been given.

I'm just going to invite you for one final comment ... just one note there I have in front of me. There is, on the basis that all evidence has to be tested, one evidential narrative would be that Minister Lenihan, on the night of the guarantee, was overruled by the Taoiseach and some suggestion has that been made. Can you concur or do you ... with that suggested evidential narrative or do you have a different view in it or could you care to offer an opinion from your observations on that night?

Mr. David Doyle

I can neither concur or with ... that he was ... I can't concur that he was overruled, I can't concur that he wasn't overruled.

Mr. David Doyle

On the night, as I said in my remarks, there was a debate going to and fro ... there were different opinions. The Minister had one; others had another. That debate took place right over the night, over hours and hours and the Taoiseach and the Minister left the room and came back with a recommendation to Cabinet was the guarantee.

Mr. David Doyle

And I ... I was never aware that there was a suggestion that the Minister was overruled. And at this stage, the late Mr. Lenihan can't deal with it. I know there are stories out there about it, but I believe the Taoiseach of the day is coming in, so-----

Okay, I will bring matters to a conclusion, Mr. Doyle, and if I can invite you by any means of any final comment, any other thing you'd like to add before we close for today's proceedings and excuse you.

Mr. David Doyle

No. I'd just like to thank the Chairman for your ... and the committee for your courtesy. Thank you very much.

Thank you and with that said, I now say to the witness, to thank Mr. Doyle for his participation today in the inquiry and for his engagement with the inquiry and to now formally excuse you and to say the meeting is adjourned until 9.30 a.m. tomorrow morning.

The joint committee adjourned at 7.28 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 18 June 2015.
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