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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FOOD debate -
Wednesday, 8 Oct 2003

Vol. 1 No. 23

Transportation of Live Animals: Presentation.

I welcome Mr. Aidan Murray and his colleagues from the Department of Agriculture and Food, who have been invited here to discuss the proposals on the transportation of live animals. The proposal is COM (2003) 425 on the protection of animals during transport and related operations. It amends Directives 64/432/EEC and 93/119/EC. This is probably one of the most important proposals that has come before us and we discussed it recently with Commissioner Byrne.

Before asking Mr. Murray to commence, I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses. Members are reminded of a long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I understand that Mr. Séamus Healy is making the presentation.

Thank you, Chairman. I am accompanied by my colleagues, Mr. AidanMurray, Mr. Brendan Gleeson, Mr. Billy McAteer and Ms Anne-Marie Dempsey. We are pleased to be present to assist the committee in its examination of the Commission's proposal to which you have referred, Chairman. In layman's language it is referred to as the live exports regulation.

By way of background, Ireland exports significant numbers of cattle to the continent. These exports consist mainly of younger animals - calves and weanlings - which are mainly for production fattening. The main destinations are Spain, Italy and the Netherlands. Some 39,700 cattle in 2001 and 101,000 cattle in 2002 were exported to the continent. The corresponding figure for this year is higher already, at 117,784 head of cattle. In addition, 29,900 adult cattle have been exported to the Lebanon this year and 24,861 to Northern Ireland, bringing the total number of live exports in 2003 to 172,000. From these figures it will be clear that these outlets are vital to the livestock sector. They provide a good economic return and competition within the sector. For the most part, cattle are transported to the continent on roll-on/roll-off vessels, although on occasions dedicated cattle boats are used.

Apart from cattle exports, we also export smaller numbers of breeding pigs and horses to the continent. As a country which is heavily dependent on livestock exports to sustain competition and farm incomes, Ireland has been to the forefront in introducing rules for the transport of animals. In particular, detailed welfare related rules were applied in Ireland prior to the adoption of EU-wide rules for both intra-Community and third country trade. This regulatory regime has contributed significantly to protecting the welfare of animals being exported and there have been insignificant numbers of mortalities in animals being transported under the regime that has been in place since the mid-1990s.

It is often forgotten that exporters and transporters have a vested interest in ensuring that animals arrive at their destinations in good condition because prices are frequently based on the weights at arrival, and in the context of securing repeat business.

On the draft regulation that is now before the Council and this committee, in July this year the Commission published its proposal for a Council regulation to strengthen the controls on the welfare of animals during transport. This proposal follows a widespread consultation exercise by the Commission and is based, in part, on an evaluation of some scientific information by the EU's scientific committee on animal health and welfare. Not surprisingly, producers, transporters and exporters on the one hand, and animal welfare groups on the other have different perspectives on the various elements of the Commission's proposal.

The Commission's proposal includes a number of elements relating to the registration and training of transporters, improved control arrangements along the chain of transport, including the possible use of tachographs, and a focus on improved mutual assistance among member states. Ireland has traditionally favoured the strict implementation of existing rules and is at present engaged in an exercise to develop a harmonised system of sanctions for transporters in breach of those rules.

The proposal also provides that sea journeys are not to be considered as part of the overall journey time. We are particularly pleased that the Commission has adopted this approach which we have consistently advocated. However, other elements of the proposal involve a ban on the use of staging posts, reductions in stocking densities and in the maximum journey times allowable prior to a rest period. It is important to remember this is a Commission proposal, examination of which has only recently commenced at the various fora in the Community. Chief veterinary officers discussed the proposal at the end of last month and there is a further Council working group meeting on 23 and 24 October. I suspect the proposal will remain in the various fora of the Council for some time before it is eventually considered in detail at Council of Ministers level. It is rare that a proposal made by the Commission is adopted in that particular form.

We have undertaken some examination of the proposal and are currently engaged in a consultative process with the Commission and stakeholders to acquaint them of the implications of the Commission's proposal and, in the case of stockholders, to get their particular perspectives and to explore with them in some detail various aspects of the proposal. This latter aspect will encompass farmer representative organisations, exporter and transporter interests and welfare bodies at national level. This process is continuing.

Against that background, and bearing in mind that its consultative process has not yet concluded, the Department considers a number of specific aspects of the proposal to be problematic, to put it at its mildest. These aspects are, to a large extent, interrelated but I will deal with them one at a time.

On the staging post element, the Commission proposal provides that animals of all species should be rested for 12 hours on board the road vehicle on which they are travelling rather than for 24 hours at a staging post as is currently provided for. The Commission has based this element of the proposal primarily on concerns about the potential spread of disease where animals mix at staging posts and travel onwards to different destinations. However, on welfare grounds, the Department strongly favours retention of arrangements for unloading animals other than pigs at staging posts. In this regard, it is considered that unloading feeding at such posts rather than retaining them on trucks for 12 hours best meets the welfare needs of cattle. If necessary, disease concerns can be addressed by applying rules on the use of these posts - for example, by confining the use of individual staging posts to animals from a single sea-going vessel at the same time, by a cleansing and disinfection regime, etc. In the case of pigs, it appears to be widely accepted that resting them on the vehicle because of their susceptibility to stress at loading unloading times best protects their welfare. However, even in the case of pigs, it will be essential to identify places - probably staging posts - where vehicles can pull in to allow the animals to rest on the vehicle. Many truck stops on the Continent discourage or do not allow vehicles carrying livestock to stop.

Turning to stocking densities, which are to some extent related to the proposed ban on staging posts, this element of the proposal provides for a reduction in stocking densities by up to 30% in some cases. This element results mainly from the proposal to ban the use of staging posts and to allow animals to properly rest on the vehicle. However, Teagasc research work involving the transport of cattle to Spain and Italy under existing stocking density and journey time provisions, and comparison with a control group on a farm in Ireland, indicates that the existing regime, when properly applied, is not detrimental to animal welfare. In those circumstances, and in view of its wish to retain the possibility of unloading animals at staging posts, the Department favours retention of stocking densities as close as possible to the existing provisions.

Turning to journey times, the Commission is proposing to change the journey time-rest cycle primarily because of the proposed ban on staging posts and the consequent need to rest and feed animals on the vehicle, and to harmonise animal rest times with those of the driver under Community legislation. For all species the Commission proposes that the journey time-rest cycle would be nine hours travel followed by 12 hours rest on the vehicle, followed by nine hours travel and so on. This compares with the current regime which provides, in the case of adult cattle, for travel of 14 hours followed by one hour rest on vehicle, followed by 14 hours travel followed by 24 hours rest at a staging post and so on.

Although the Department believes that the existing regime is not detrimental to the welfare of animals, it would, nevertheless, be prepared to discuss alternative arrangements provided the needs of our island status are catered for and there is a degree of flexibility built into the new regime on completion of journeys. They are the elements of the proposal that create the major problems for the industry and the Department. They are interrelated and I have explained the Commission background and our thinking.

I will turn to some other elements with which we have some difficulties. On sea-going vessels, we believe we have more experience than other member states in this area and we consider the welfare proposals are probably less animal welfare friendly than those currently in place Ireland. We have had much experience of approving seagoing vessels. In the past, we have had difficulties with shipments abroad but the current regime has avoided large scale mortalities of the type witnessed prior to the mid-1990s. For example, we would like to see the Commission propose provisions relating to weather conditions and vessel stability. A difference in the standards of vessels approved in other member states could lead to trade distortions and could compromise animal welfare.

In regard to the legal basis for application of the proposal, the Commission has proposed a regulation but we would favour a directive that would allow for greater flexibility in the implementation of the new rules, taking into account the different systems for assembling and transporting animals in different member states.

We have stated our basic position. The Department has a consistent position on live exports, that is, that they provide a vital market outlet for the livestock sector. Accordingly, and with due regard to the current consultative exercise, the Department's focus in the forthcoming negotiations will be to ensure that this trade can continue on an economically viable basis, while always ensuring that the welfare of animals being transported is protected.

Thank you, Mr. Healy. We all know this issue is very important to the agricultural and livestock sectors. I am pleased you are opposing some of the regulations. I call Deputy Upton.

I thank Deputy Timmins for allowing me to intervene first. I apologise, but I must attend another committee at 3.30 p.m. I thank Mr. Healy for his presentation and the concise summary of the proposals and the approaches to them. On the question of journey times, he says that although the Department believes the existing regime is not detrimental to the welfare of animals etc., it would be prepared to discuss alternative arrangements. What kind of arrangements?

Members of the joint committee had copies of the research undertaken by Teagasc, which was very useful. It clearly set out that there appeared to be no difficulties in retaining the current processes. Is Mr. Healy aware if research has been undertaken in other countries and, if so, how might it compare with the Teagasc research?

Another key point that will be raised by my colleague, Senator McCarthy, deals with the rest period, the staging posts and the non-removal of the animals. I appreciate the difficulties that arise regarding the risk of animal disease, which we have discussed. However, from an Irish perspective, there would be a view that not being allowed to unload the animals creates other difficulties. While there may be animal disease implications, is it possible to elaborate on what precautions could be put in place to ensure they are not of any great significance and that they could be contained?

Perhaps, Mr. Healy, you could reply to Deputy Upton before she leaves the meeting.

On alternative arrangements, we are still in the process of consulting with the various stakeholders. One of our concerns is that a rigid regime can in some cases be detrimental to the welfare of animals. For example, if a relatively short journey could be completed, say, within an hour or two, it does not make sense to us to rest for 12 hours or to unload. We would like to see a degree of flexibility built into the arrangements. We do not have a position on alternative arrangements that would be acceptable but are in the process of consulting all the stakeholders with a view to teasing out the most suitable regime. In any event, we would wish to have a far more flexible regime, in particular one that allows for journeys to be completed, rather than that set out in these proposals, which call for rigid timeframes involving travel and rest.

I am aware that other research is being undertaken, particularly in France, on the welfare issues arising from transport. We have not seen them, but the French suggest that the current regime is not detrimental to the welfare of animals.

On staging posts, as I mentioned in my introduction, the Commission is basing its proposal not to allow staging posts because of concerns about animal disease spread. Other safeguards could be built in, for example, by only allowing animals that have travelled by boat from a country to stop at a particular staging post and to have a cleansing-disinfection regime with relevant supervision. That type of regime would avoid the kind of problems that arose, for example, during the foot and mouth disease outbreak on the Continent almost three years ago. These are broadly the views we will put forward to prevent disease and to safeguard welfare.

Thank you, Chairman.

I thank Mr. Healy and his committee for attending the meeting. Commissioner Byrne is out of step with the political parties here in terms of the response to his submission. He is also out of step with the partners in the business, which, we are led to believe, is worth approximately €200 million a year to Irish farmers. I am pleased that he now appears to be out of step with the Department of Agriculture and Food. Usually, officials in the Department are in conflict with the joint committee, so it is good that we appear to be singing from the same hymn sheet.

I thank Mr. Healy for his clear and concise submission. It contains little or no ambiguity. The operation of transporters and seagoing vessels must be streamlined to ensure that the highest standards prevail. I was a passenger on a boat during the summer that was not suitable for any kind of animal. It is important that these aspects are addressed.

The big issue concerns the proposals for staging posts. There is a fear they may be abolished, which would be detrimental to the industry as their retention is vitally important in terms of providing farmers with another competitive outlet for the price of their product. The matter can be addressed in terms of proposals that are country or vessel specific.

Mr. Healy's document mentions that the proposals are less conducive to animal welfare than those in place here. From what I have seen and heard, I would agree with that view. I do not understand why the Commissioner is making a different proposal, especially as it appears to be without any scientific basis. Stocking densities and the question of animals remaining on vehicles will not be an issue if staging posts are retained. Deputy Upton referred to the journey times.

Would it be correct to infer that the Department was happy with the current systems in place and that it did not seek new proposals? Do pigs stay on vehicles or are they put into staging posts? On the last paragraph of page 3 of Mr. Healy's document, dealing with seagoing vessels, it is stated: "The Department favours a stricter regime than proposed for the approval of seagoing vessels transporting animals. For example, the Commission proposals contain no provisions relating to weather conditions". Previous reports indicated that aspects such as this would be taken into consideration. Is this what the Department is concerned with and, if so, what changes does it consider to be desirable? If they are implemented, what impact will they have on the industry?

I am pleased to note the position taken by the Department. We will be urging the Minister to reject the concept of leaving animals on vehicles and increasing stocking densities. It is imperative that the staging posts be kept in place.

I thank Mr. Healy for his presentation. It is heartening to see the Department in harmony with the public representatives at this meeting. This matter is concerned with two fundamental issues. If the staging posts area abolished the cost incurred in transportation arising from the consequent reduction in density will have a detrimental impact on Irish producers. That aspect must be part of any forthcoming negotiations. That is an essential point, and it must be factored in by the officials in the negotiations ahead as a principled part of their negotiating strategy. The reduction of density in transportation will be a massive factor in costs. It is heartening to see also that Ireland has been at the forefront in terms of rules for transportation of animals that are conscious of animal welfare. It is disappointing to note that the Commission does not have any idea or understanding of this and has not factored it into the situation.

On staging posts, the density of cattle being transported at present is conducive to the welfare of the animals in so far as a good part of the journey takes place by sea. A reduction of density in sea transportation can have an adverse effect on the condition and safety of the animal. Do the Department officials agree with that?

Deputy Upton asked about alternative arrangements. I would be concerned if an alternative arrangement does not take into account that the staging posts are central to any arrangement, and I seek an assurance that this would be part of any negotiations and that the officials will try to ensure that the staging posts remain. It is of vital importance because without it the whole cost factor will soar and the producers will lose out.

Mr. Healy does not mind if I take all of the speakers?

That is okay.

I welcome Mr. Healy and his team. It is good to see for once that we are singing from the same hymn sheet, and I compliment Mr. Healy on his position. On the staging post proposal and the idea of resting cattle on board a road vehicle, the density would be so low that it would place an enormous cost on the transport system. I have no questions to ask. I agree with the position the Department has taken and I think the industry will be quite happy with it. I wish the officials well with their proposals.

I welcome the delegation and thank them, as Deputy Timmins did, for a very unambiguous report. It is very welcome. We all realise the value of our live exports when one considers that 172,000 animals have been exported this year alone and we have yet to enter the busy period for exports.

I am glad the Department is taking the stand it is because what is being proposed would be very cruel to animals. One could have a situation where one has a six-hour sailing, nine hours of road travel and the necessity to rest for 12 hours while holding animals on a lorry. That is absolutely ludicrous and is cruel to the animals. If an animal gets hurt in travel there is no way of treating that animal or of knowing if the animal is hurt or injured until it is taken off the lorry, but at that stage it might be too late. I am delighted the Department is taking this stand, and most of the people I know of, particularly the exporters, would wish it to take this stand and to continue with the staging posts.

What happens if one completes nine hours out of ten of road travel en route to one's destination? Does one have to rest then for 12 hours before completing the final hour of the journey? It does not make a lot of sense, and the staging posts are the best way forward. From the staging posts nine hours would take one almost anywhere in Europe.

I too welcome the delegation and agree with its presentation. I especially compliment it on the section on staging posts. Is there any report or indication of what the chief veterinary officers had to say on the 24th? I am delighted to hear that France in on side. It is very important that one of the big players agrees with what the Department is doing. I also agree strongly with the last page of the submission, in which the officials call for a directive rather than a regulation, because a directive would be easier to implement. Regulations can often take common sense out of the equation.

The Department should be complimented on the stance it has taken over the years in the export of livestock and in the improvements it has carried out. In another career I did some work in this area, and everything was done very well by the veterinary section of the Department. Even the company organising the live export of calves by plane from Knock airport had its own veterinary surgeon present, along with those from the Department, to ensure that everything was in order. It is hugely important to the livestock industry that everything is done right but also done with common sense. I am delighted that this presentation is full of common sense, and I compliment the officials on that and wish them well in the negotiations on this directive.

I join my colleagues in congratulating Mr. Healy on his clear presentation and I support the points made on all sides. I welcome the massive increase we see in the statistics before us in the number of live exports this year, almost 75% up on the total numbers in 2002. There must be a direct correlation between the current price in the marketplace and the level of live exports. Those who would do anything to interfere with that particular trade are directly affecting the livelihoods of a great number of farmers, not least those in the beef sector.

Is it not true that a reduction of up to 30% in stocking densities would effectively wipe out the live export of cattle because their transport to the destinations mentioned - Spain, Italy, the Netherlands and the Lebanon - would be completely non-viable? I ask the officials to tell us a little about the position of the animal welfare lobby because it was quite clear, listening to the Commissioner the last day, that the animal welfare lobby is enormously powerful in Europe. What are our own animal welfare people saying about the current situation?

I would be very conscious of the fact that it is possible - and we have proven it - to export animals safely and have them in prime condition when they arrive at their destination. One need only look at Dermot Weld's success in the Melbourne Cup. It is possible to send a thoroughbred racehorse to Australia and beat all comers from all over the world, so I am sure it is equally possible to successfully and effectively export animals to the countries we have mentioned.

I agree with what has been said by colleagues on staging posts. Is there any basis for concern about the operation to date of these staging posts? Have there been any incidents anywhere that have given rise to concern about animal health or disease control?

I just want to make a general observation and concur with previous speakers about the staging posts issue. I know that live exports are of huge importance to the industry and our economy. I urge these officials to maintain a resistance to this specific proposal. We must be cognisant of a number of issues in this regard in terms of animal welfare and economics. As a small island on the western periphery of Europe we are in a unique position. There is a huge difference between the amount of sea travel between here and mainland Europe and travel in the other continental countries.

The departmental officials face powerful lobby groups, as has been pointed out, such as the group lobbying for the implementation of this regulation. I agree with the officials when they say that the regulation should be examined in the form of a directive because it would allow some flexibility and a greater transition period for applying the rules. I wish those concerned good luck in the forthcoming negotiations and request that they maintain their resistance to this proposal.

I apologise, especially to the delegation, for my late arrival at the meeting. I have glanced through the submission and concur with most speakers in that I am happy with the stance taken by the Department. I will not be repetitive but I wish to refer to two items.

The submission states that the Department favours a stricter regime. As a person who deals with the Department on a regular basis, I become concerned when I hear it say it will impose a stricter regime. Is it possible that the regime would be so strict as to make it impossible for exporters to hire vessels to transport animals to Europe? I would like to hear some elaboration on that if it has not already been given.

The other issue is truck stops. The submission states that vehicles transporting animals are discouraged from stopping over. If that is so, we will need a better explanation from the European Commission as to how it will provide truck stops. That is important.

I concur with other speakers that it is of the utmost importance to the farming community, and to the broader Irish community, that we achieve a satisfactory outcome to this issue. I encourage the officials to continue with their approach and the stance they have adopted.

I concur with the members and compliment the officials. The Minister at a recent meeting with the committee indicated that he would oppose this measure. We put it to Commissioner Byrne that the concern about staging posts was the spread of disease. I suggested to him that, because of Ireland's unique position, there should be staging posts specifically for Ireland. He said he would examine that matter. Have the Department officials considered this option? Staging posts would not be as important for other European Union countries as they would be for Ireland. That is all I have to say. I call on Mr. Healy to reply.

I thank the Chairman and all the members who spoke. There is agreement with the stance we have outlined on the various elements and especially the most problematic elements of the Commission's proposals.

I wish to make it clear to Deputy Timmins that Ireland did not request the Commission to produce proposals. It has come forward with these largely based on a report from its scientific committee that recommended more draconian arrangements than are included in the proposals. It would be fair to say that we had ongoing discussions at all levels with the Commission.

It is for the Commissioner who appeared before the committee to defend his proposals. One element that would reflect the Irish position is that the sea journey would not be counted as part of the journey time. That is something for which the Minister has been pushing, as have we at official level, on an ongoing basis. That element exists.

I do not want to defend the Commissioner's proposals or his reasons for coming forward with them, but he must take account of divergent views, not just between the livestock side and the welfare groups but also between member states. Some do not want animals to be transported for any distance. I received a proposal at one stage that, instead of transporting animals, mobile abattoirs should be used to go around to farms. That is one extreme. It is not a government position but is a non-governmental organisation's position in a member state.

The spectrum ranges from this across to those who are prepared to accept reasonable arrangements to those who want animals to be transported from one end of the Community to the other. I am placing the Commissioner's position in context; I do not defend it. He must take on board the views of the livestock sector, the welfare groups and especially the member states. Otherwise, he does not have a hope in hell of having any proposals accepted. That said, we did not seek the current proposals.

As I said in my introductory statement, the three elements involved are inter-linked. We have made it clear that we believe staging posts should be maintained and appropriate safeguards can be built in along the lines to which the Chairman referred. In other words, there could be dedicated staging posts for animals coming from a certain destination. These posts would have a cleansing and disinfection regime. That would not add unduly to the current costs of the staging posts.

I have made it clear that we have a difficulty with the density element. Everyone accepts that there would be difficulties with reductions in density. There would be an economic difficulty with a reduction in density of up to 30% in some cases. There may also be welfare difficulties with animals that are packed in less tightly. I am not an expert in this, but if animals are tossed around because there is more space between them, they are more likely to become injured. There are economic and welfare reasons for maintaining the regime along current lines.

On sea vessels, we have long experience of overseeing a regime that ensures that animals can travel from Ireland all the way to Lebanon in recent years and further in the past. We have reasonably precise conditions relating to weather forecasts. Weather forecasts for the next 72 hours must be obtained to allow vessels negotiate the most dangerous parts of the sea. We also have provisions concerning when vessels can travel depending on their size. In most cases we do not allow them to set off if a force six gale is forecast. They are the types of areas we had in mind in having a stricter regime for vessels.

Such measures are not included in the Commission proposals. We would like to see them included to avoid the difficulties we have had in the past. The last thing we want is a repeat of what the Australian sheep exporters faced of 50,000 sheep stuck on a boat for 65 days, thousands of whom died. That is something we must avoid and we believe the regime we have in place would avoid that.

I understand that pigs remain on board vehicles at this stage and we believe there are good welfare reasons for doing that. On the issue of whether the trade would be viable if there were a 30% reduction in density, it would certainly make it much less attractive than at present.

On the different views of sectoral interests, we have had representations already from some of the welfare groups. We have not concluded our discussions with the welfare groups. It would be fair to say there is some common ground between the views of the different interests, particularly on staging posts. One of the organisations has made it clear that it sees a particular difficulty with keeping animals on board a vehicle for 12 hours. Obviously, in other areas there will be different positions but we are still in the consultation process.

On what CBOs had to say on the proposals, discussions are at a very early stage and they have not really outlined a member state position. They have identified various issues that need to be addressed and they will do so; in particular they want to address issues such as the scope of the proposal, journey times, standby vehicles and the resting period. However, they have not as yet clarified what their Ministers' positions will be when this proposal comes to council. The proposal is at a very early stage of examination - at working group-chief veterinary officer level - and it will remain at that level for some considerable time yet.

On journey times, members asked what the position would be if a journey took ten hours and there was a nine-hour travel period. As the Commission proposal currently stands, a rest period would be required after nine hours. In the current system there is a provision for completing the journey if one is within two hours of one's final destination and we feel that makes eminent sense. I mentioned the fact that a very inflexible regime could adversely affect the welfare of animals being transported. Some degree of flexibility, in particular on completing journeys when one is within shouting distance of one's destination, makes eminent sense.

Returning to staging posts, Deputy Ó Fearghaíl asked about disease and staging posts and inquired if the Commission was concerned about this. I am not sure if people remember the FMD episode in early 2001, when Irish calves mixed with or were adjacent to sheep from Britain. Our calves then travelled onwards to the Netherlands, where FMD broke out. That is the concern the Commission is addressing. We feel the situation can be addressed satisfactorily by having effectively dedicated staging posts with appropriate safeguards of the kind I mentioned earlier.

I am not sure if there were other questions but if members have specific questions I or my colleagues will answer them.

Thank you, Mr. Healy. Are there any further questions? As there are more meetings scheduled for 23 and 24 October, will the committee agree not to report until such time as further discussions have taken place on this issue?

Are we expected to agree to this document?

No, it is just a matter of expressing our views on it. We do not want to produce a report until such time as we get more clarification.

It is a matter of record that we are very opposed to the proposals as currently formulated.

That is unanimous.

I thank Mr. Healy and the officials from the Department for attending the meeting and responding to questions. Any time we request the attendance of the officials they are willing to do so.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.55 p.m.sine die.
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