JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FOOD debate -
Tuesday, 6 Apr 2004

Irish Cattle Exporters Association: Presentation.

Chairman

Are the minutes of the meeting held on 1 April 2004 agreed? Agreed.

I welcome Mr. Tom Clarke and his colleagues from the Irish Cattle Exporters Association. Before asking Mr. Clarke and his colleagues to make their opening remarks, I draw to their attention that while members of this committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not extend to them. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Paddy Hever

Thank you, Chairman. I am chairman of the Ballymoate livestock mart. Farmers need the livestock mart but the way things are going, it is getting increasingly tight to operate livestock marts. The mart also needs livestock exporters. Mr. Tom Clarke and Mr. Hubert Maxwell are livestock exporters, and Mr. Henry Dixon is a transporter. I do not intend to say much more but if better prices are not achieved for cattle and if the cattle are not produced, the marts will go and we will have nowhere to sell our stock. With the introduction of decoupling next year the marts will not continue unless some incentive is given. I am concerned about that. I will hand over to the other gentlemen who know much more about the position.

Mr. Tom Clarke

We come to this meeting from three different angles. The first is the European transport, the second is our facilities in Ireland and the third is the way the Department of Agriculture and Food works with exporters. I ask Mr. Dixon to make the presentation on transport, of which members will be well aware in recent days. Perhaps he will outline the picture in terms of what is happening currently.

Mr. Henry Dixon

As livestock transporters, we felt we had sufficient regulations in the past. We worked closely with the Department of Agriculture and Food in bringing in what we regard as the highest standards in the world for animal transport. We felt that the new proposed regulations would put the whole industry in turmoil, especially in regard to not declaring animals. We felt it would be impossible to transport animals from Ireland to our markets in Spain or Italy, first because the animals could not endure temperatures of 40 to 50 degrees which we experienced last year in the trailers. Basically, the animals would cook. Second, it would be dangerous for the drivers if they were asked to feed these young animals on the trailers. No insurance company would cover drivers or companies to do that. We believe the status quo regulations are sufficient for us to get the animals to our markets in Spain and Italy. There is a long-term business in those countries provided we do not bring in something that would give the likes of Compassion in World Farming Ireland an excuse to say we are not doing the job properly. The current regulations are quite sufficient.

Mr. Clarke

We have the strictest rules in the world for live transport. I am sure members are aware of that because they have been well briefed on the matter. We were very disappointed that Commissioner Byrne did not do some more research before he presented his proposals, but that is looking back in hindsight.

We understand the Minister, Deputy Walsh, is working very hard for us on sorting out the transport problem. I ask Hubert Maxwell to speak about the licensed exporters.

Mr. Hubert Maxwell

Our problem in regard to the assembly points has been ongoing for the past number of years. Mr. Clarke and I come from the west, as members are aware, and we assemble numbers of cattle to be exported to both Spain and Italy. We have licensed yards to assemble those animals but we do not appear to be recognised by the Department as having sufficient assembly places to have them cleared from our yards for export. We have to assemble the animals and send them to Dublin or Rosslare for the Department to check them but we believe that can be done in our own yards at much less expense to ourselves and with far fewer problems for the animals concerned. It would involve eight or ten hours less travel for the animals. That is something that must be examined.

In regard to our yards, we are not grant aided. If we need to extend our yards we have to do that at our own expense, and we believe that is not right. In regard to private enterprise, export plants such as factories and slaughterhouses have been grant aided in the past to a huge extent.

Getting back to the nuts and bolts of it, Mr. Clarke and I exported approximately 30,000 cattle last year and all those expenses have to be taken out of our own pocket. We did not get any help whatsoever in that regard. I do not wish to be critical of the Department, which has many problems, but we appear to be forgotten as are people in the same walk of life. We will be grant aided to extend our own farmyards but we will not be grant aided to extend the yards we use specifically for the export of animals. As everyone knows, the expenses involved in respect of that amount of cattle is huge. We should be grant aided, to what extent I do not know but the Department has definitely turned its thoughts away from us. We believe it is discrimination. We do not know whether that is a national policy or if it is being driven by European Union regulations. We would like to know if that is the case.

I hope I have given members a fairly clear picture of our position. Only last week Mr. Clarke had to provide a place to clean out lorries, which they call a dungstead. He tried to get grant aid for that but was turned down. He had to provide it out of his own pocket at a cost of approximately €10,000 to €15,000. If that had been done in a place other than his export yard, he would have received grant aid. I have the same problem. I ask the committee to help us with that problem, not just for ourselves but for the national economy and the farmers of Ireland.

Mr. Clarke

What we are asking for is political direction and that the Department would be more favourable in helping the exporter to upgrade his premises. We are not asking for rules to be changed or broken. We just want to upgrade our yards to allow me get my cattle checked in Sligo and Hubert Maxwell can get his checked in Roscommon or wherever. It is ridiculous that we have to go to Dublin. Both of us check our cattle. Mr. Lenihan has an export premises in Dublin. His yards have been limited by the Department this year compared to last year. Up to mid-summer last year he could do eight or nine loads of cattle every morning without any problem but the Department then introduced different rules which meant he could only do two or three loads of calves or perhaps a load of weanlings. That is more curbing and we do not understand that change of direction by the Department. We ask politicians to direct the Department to be more encouraging and to facilitate exporters in running their businesses.

From Frank Lenihan's point of view, nine or ten lorry loads of cattle could have been checked any morning before shipping. What has changed in the Department for its officials to limit such checking to two, three or four lorry loads of cattle? What is the explanation for that? It is difficult to understand the reason for the change. We have to transport cattle to Dublin a day earlier than planned for inspection if the number of lorry loads involved exceeds four or five. That is another problem we have and it involves further expense. From our point of view, it is important to ensure cattle arrive in a fresh condition on the Continent. We do not get a penny for the cattle until they arrive there and they must arrive in good condition. It is in our interests as well as in the interests of everybody else concerned that this process is done correctly and that the cattle arrive in a fresh condition. One of our requests is for Department officials to inspect the yards, ascertain what improvements must be made and allow us to make them. The Department's position was that it had no staff available for this purpose. Department officials are wondering what jobs they will have next January. The two answers being given in this regard are not the same because obviously there is staff available.

The Department has passed a few lairages in recent weeks or months. We want to be facilitated. We will comply with the regulations. We request the Department to have a different outlook on this service and to provide it to exporters wherever they may be. We live within the rules and all we ask is for fair play. Many vets may not like a Deputy calling them and pointing out that he or she wants something done, but some influence will have to be exerted by politicians to maintain the viability of this export business.

Everyone is worried about the mid-term review and how it will affect our cattle trade. It will affect it in two ways. If we are competitive in the European market, we will be able to deliver cattle, but if we are not, we will not be able to do so. With the accession of the new countries to the Union, we will face new challenges. Therefore, it is important that we get our own house in order, that we are able to export cattle in as fresh a condition as possible and that we have the most up-to-date lorries in Europe and elsewhere. That would be in the Department's interests. If a farmer does not get a good price for his animal in the mart, he will stop producing because he has entitlements now and does not have to produce them. If this business is to last, marts and those in the countryside will depend on cattle production, as they did a few years ago. The bottom line is the price. If we can produce cattle at a price, we will be competitive, the farmer will stay in business and we will be able to sell our cattle in Europe.

Chairman

Can Mr. Clarke give us a run-down on a typical day covering the period from when a calf or weanling is bought at a mart or at farm point until the animal is transported to the boat?

Mr. Clarke

We bought calves in Bandon yesterday and they will be exported on the boat tonight because we do not have any problems regarding testing as they are under 45 days old. Those cattle will be delivered Wednesday or Thursday evening and such delivery time is as good as one could expect from any country.

Weanlings or older animals have to undergo different tests. They are usually bought on a Monday and Tuesday. When one has approximately 80 cattle, one must check their test status. They must be blood tested and tested for TB, which takes another three or four days. One would be doing well to buy a lorry load of suitable cattle for a customer in one week. They have to be tested and they should be ready to leave the country about ten days later. That is the position at this time of the year because many of them are not export tested when they arrive at the marts. It takes approximately three days for them to be export tested.

Cattle I load onto a lorry in Sligo on a Monday evening are transported to Dublin that night, inspected by vets in Dublin on Tuesday and leave Rosslare on the boat on Tuesday evening. It is ridiculous that such cattle for export must travel a route from Sligo via Dublin to Rosslare. I am sure members are familiar with the transport arrangements for such cattle. When cattle are exported to France within two hours of arrival there they are put into a lairage and subsequently delivered. It takes approximately three days from the day they leave Dublin for them to be delivered to a farm in Italy or Spain. It takes a shorter time for cattle to be delivered to a farm in Holland or France because those destinations are nearer.

If we did not have to transport such cattle to Dublin, they could be transported directly from Sligo to Rosslare. That would make matters easier for us and it would be less expensive. We would not have to pay a lorry driver to sit in a lorry for a day in Dublin doing nothing. We would save on the cost of the diesel and on the journey to Dublin. It is in our interests to make sure cattle arrive at their destination in perfect condition. It they do not, we will not get paid. Basically that is what is involved in transporting cattle.

Chairman

What has happened in the interim to the calves that were bought yesterday morning in Bandon and that will be shipped this evening?

Mr. Clarke

They were put into a lairage last night in Nenagh. They were fed after coming from the mart. They were transported to Dublin and were fed again in Dublin this morning, and the minute they come off the boat they will be fed again. That yard in Nenagh should be passed to check out those cattle. Those calves were transported last night from Nenagh to Dublin and then on to Rosslare. Department officials will tell one they have no staff. I am sure it costs twice as much to have staff in Dublin as to have staff in Nenagh because of higher overheads. We are asking the Department to facilitate us by having staff in offices in Nenagh, Roscommon, Sligo, Mayo, Cork, Kerry or wherever they are needed to ensure cattle have to endure less hassle and there is less travel involved. That makes common sense. We have not taken on this issue because we listened to Department officials who told us there is no staff available. This issue has now moved past that stage and it must be addressed politically to ascertain what can be done about it.

Chairman

Thank you, Mr. Clarke.

Deputy Timmins

I thank the Chairman for organising for representatives of the Irish Cattle Exporters Association to appear before the committee and it is interesting to hear what they have to say. I wish to make three points arising from what they said. First, there is the issue of the facilities and the lack of grant aid for them. If a farmer erects a unit on a farm, he will receive grant aid for it, but the representatives do not receive grant aid for such facilities. They have made a fair point. Whenever I have raised the issue of live exports with the Minister, he has spoken about how he looks upon it positively with regard to open markets and so forth. I will take up the issue of grant aid for such facilities and the reason representatives of the association are not receiving it relative to those in other sections of the agricultural industry and those engaged in most businesses set up here.

Second, there is the issue of draft proposals at EU level, which would have a major impact on this business. Mr. Maxwell, and also perhaps Mr. Hever, dealt with that issue. The Commissioner has outlined to the committee many of the concerns raised by the representatives. I met the Commissioner in Brussels and he acknowledged that with regard to the concept of a staging post, which is vital for the export of cattle from Ireland, there is a move in the EU from some of the central countries to basically abolish the live cattle export trade. The Commissioner seemed well disposed to the concept of the staging post, be it country specific or run on a mechanism different from that on which it is currently run. I am not sure if the foot and mouth disease spread to Holland from one of the staging posts there, which was a concern in regard to them. The EU could put forward transport proposals. I understand it is hoped there will be agreement on them at the Council of Ministers' meeting at the end of April in Kerry. Hopefully, they will be favourable and will not have a negative impact on the industry. We will monitor this issue and press the Minister on it.

Third, I was not aware of the process and the handicaps encountered in the business. Is it the case that virtually all the animals in the trade are exported from Rosslare?

Mr. Clarke

Yes.

Deputy Timmins

This is an issue we will take up with the Department in the immediate future. We talk about decentralisation and so forth but it does not make sense that animals must travel from A to B to reach C. Perhaps there is a logical reason for it but I do not know it.

I will try to find out why the facility is not established at Rosslare, for example, so they could travel directly there rather than through Dublin. It would make sense from the point of view of traffic, facilities and so forth, which are an additional cost as well as the time factor. We will follow up on the three main issues raised and, through the committee or personally, come back to the association about them. There will be no competition in the cattle industry if there are no live exports. It is important to maintain that sector and every possible mechanism should be provided to facilitate it.

With regard to the point made about Rosslare, I cannot understand why that was not addressed in the past. Perhaps there is a stumbling block of which we are unaware. It seems to make sense because if one was running it as a private enterprise, one would never follow that line of thought. We will come back to the association on it.

Deputy Upton

I thank the group for its presentation. I agree with the points made by Deputy Timmins. It is illogical to take animals from Sligo or Nenagh, for example, to Dublin and then to Rosslare. The representative mentioned having inspections in Nenagh or wherever but it would be sensible to have it located in a central unit in Rosslare, for example. It is the obvious thing to do and I would have no difficulties with that. Equally, if it were done in the place they were being moved from, it would overcome the problem but centralising it in one location would be easier. However, there might well be scope to have inspectors in the main towns or where the marts are located throughout the country.

The representatives said that when the animals are tested for TB and so forth, there is a wait of up to three days for the results. Between the tests being carried out and the results being made available, where are the animals kept?

Mr. Clarke

That is the point. They are stored——

Chairman

We will take a few questions at a time and then you can reply.

Deputy Upton

That is my key question on that issue. With regard to grant aid, it is understandable that the representatives might feel a little aggrieved and disadvantaged. It is certainly something that could be raised with the Minister. These people seem to be left out of the loop in comparison with other areas in the agriculture industry. We will raise that question for the association.

My final question relates to the staging posts. If one is moving animals from Donegal or Sligo, it does not make sense not to have staging posts, even from an animal welfare point of view. I presume the door is not yet fully closed on that in so far as the papers on it are still at draft level. It is a matter we can take up with the Minister and the Commissioner.

Senator Scanlon

It is important that the committee listens to the concerns of the cattle exporters. Abattoirs were mentioned. Over the past 20 years they have decreased in number. County Sligo had 32 abattoirs and now only has two. That change came about by regulation. I do not want the same thing to happen to the export industry because it would be a disaster. Small abattoirs tried to get funding and applied for it but they were unsuccessful even though lorry loads of money were being thrown at the meat factories. It is important that we listen to what is said today and that we act on it.

With regard to the transport of cattle, everybody agrees the proposals made by Commissioner Byrne are unworkable. In fairness to the Minister and his officials, they are trying to sort out that problem and I believe it will be resolved. Two of the representatives before the committee are from the west, an area that exported 30,000 live cattle last year. That trade is vital to the west and it will be even more so after decoupling and 2005. That is the reason we should do everything possible to resolve this problem. With regard to testing cattle, it is ludicrous to have to move the cattle from the west to Dublin to have them tested and then to Rosslare. I propose that the committee write to the Minister outlining this problem.

If I understood correctly, the association asked that the guidelines provide that cattle could be tested in the yard before they are exported but it is having difficulty getting those guidelines put in place. If that is the case, it is most unfair. However, I understand how this can happen; I know what happened to the small abattoirs and they have gone out of business. That should not be allowed to happen. We should support the association in every way we can.

Mr. Clarke

With regard to centralisation, I buy the cattle that come to my yard in Sligo or else they go to the yard in Nenagh. A central checking point in Rosslare is not really suitable because everybody will be going through there. From our point of view and from an animal welfare point of view, it is better to check the cattle on our premises. The Department's vets could come to the yard, inspect the cattle and do whatever they have to do. If any cattle are rejected, they will be left in our yard. They will not have to go to Rosslare and then be returned to the yard. Whatever is checked and found positive, therefore, will go to Rosslare and out on the boat. If cattle are rejected for any reason, they will be left in our yard and, from an animal welfare point of view, will not be left in Rosslare and then returned to Sligo or Nenagh. That is the important issue.

With regard to the guidelines, we have asked the Department to state what we have to do to provide a proper service in our yards. It has told us we do not have the staff to do it and, therefore, it is not a runner. That is the answer we receive every time. One of our members has requested guidelines in Mayo. He was told to go to Dublin but when he went there he was told it was a Castlebar issue. We have been up and down to Dublin a number of times on this. We know the point of view in the Department. I do not wish to say anything wrong about the Department because the people there are doing their jobs. However, there is not a positive attitude towards facilitating live exports. We are not asking for any rules to be broken but just to live within the rules. We are asking the Department to produce guidelines.

The Department is curbing the number of cattle that can be checked in the lairage we use in Dublin. That means we are being restricted all the way. Why is there a sudden curbing of the facilities in Dublin? The Department says it does not have the staff to check them. Ten months ago, however, they could check ten loads of cattle there in the morning without a problem. Where did the problem arise? Everything is on CMMS and there is no problem with checking the cattle. We are told it is due to regulations. The regulation means that some of the cattle have to go to Dublin the day before transport, which means they are an extra day on the road. There is no reason for that.

Centralised checking is not an option. We would try to avoid that. The cattle should be checked in each exporter's yard and be sent directly to Rosslare for the boat.

Deputy Timmins

I know a man in Woodenbridge who has a facility and who exports cattle. Does he have to bring the cattle to Dublin to get them checked and bring them back down to Rosslare? When cattle are sent from Sligo to Dublin, for example, what happens to them if they are failed in Dublin?

Mr. Clarke

We have to send a truck to Dublin to bring the rejected cattle back to Sligo.

Deputy Timmins

Does the exporter in Woodenbridge have to bring his cattle to Dublin to be checked?

Mr. Clarke

His cattle are checked in Rosslare, at Enniscorthy mart.

Deputy Timmins

Where in the country can cattle be checked?

Mr. Clarke

There are three places. There is Casey in Limerick, Lenihan in Dublin and Enniscorthy mart. There are also people in Mullingar who have a private facility.

Deputy Timmins

Could your cattle be checked in Enniscorthy if you wished?

Mr. Clarke

Yes, but it is not suitable for me to travel to Enniscorthy from Sligo. If I send 80 cattle to Enniscorthy and two of them are rejected for some reason, I must send a lorry to Enniscorthy to take them back to Sligo, which is ridiculous. At least if we have them in Dublin, they will be looked after and we could arrange with two or three exporters to send a lorry to collect them, which would not be as bad. We should be able to check our cattle in our yards. The Department is available to check them. If I want to buy ten cattle in a mart in the North of Ireland, the Department will go there to check them in the mart. I do not know why the same does not prevail in the exporter's yard.

Mr. Maxwell

Each exporter I know has his or her own facilities, such as yards and shoots, which enable him or her to work with the Department. There was a time when facilities might not have been as good, but now everyone has a yard, shoot and offices. The Department does not have a problem going into any yard at present. Facilities might not have been good years ago but, as Mr. Clarke will verify, there are facilities in every exporter's yard for the Department. It is difficult for cattle to travel from one end of the country to the other. While there are two or three places in the vicinity of Dublin where cattle can be checked, there is no place in the west. The farmers in the west need exports because they do not have the facilities to fatten the cattle they produce. These people are being left out.

Mr. Clarke

Our yards are licensed to export, but we are not licensed to export from our own premises, which is puzzling.

Deputy Devins

I also welcome the Irish Cattle Exporters Association, which has made a strong case. I want to focus on one aspect of its presentation, namely, the work involved in inspection. Am I correct in understanding the work is done by a vet? If it was done in locations, such as Sligo or Mayo, would the local Department vet be able to carry out that work? If so, that means there would be no extra expense to the Department. If the cattle are brought to Dublin and they are rejected, the person must then pay the cost of transporting the rejected animals back to where they came from.

Senator MacSharry

I welcome the delegation. As regards live cattle exports, this committee and the Department should do everything it can to maintain and enhance the live cattle export business. As someone who was involved in beef processing, I know the importance of the live cattle trade in terms of keeping the market price high for farmers. Exporters probably made life difficult for me as a processor in the past by keeping the price high when I was trying to buy more cheaply. However, it is vitally important that everything which can be done is done.

I second Senator Scanlon's proposal that the committee should take this issue up directly with the Department and that we should commend the Minister for Agriculture and Food on his endeavours to tackle the unmanageable, ludicrous and ill-informed transport proposals which Commissioner Byrne tried to implement. It defies logic that one must bring cattle to three centres to facilitate their export. That does not make sense in terms of the cost, the welfare of the animals or the continuity of the agricultural business. I do not accept the staffing argument, particularly when one considers the issue of secondary grading during intervention. I remember a significant number of Department staff being brought around the country in buses at that time. There is a district veterinary office in every county, as Deputy Devins said. There is no reason those people could not be trained at a minimal cost to go to yards which have been brought up to the correct standard. Farmers should be given grant aid to bring their facilities up to a standard acceptable to the Department. Any Department or Department official which tries to make excuses or to put barriers in the way of genuine progress in this area is wrong. This committee should send a letter to the Department in that regard.

Deputy Wilkinson

I also welcome the Irish Cattle Exporters Association. I thank it for the case it has made. It is good to listen to people who know their business. That is how we get proper information. It is shocking that cattle must travel such long distances before they leave the country. The benefit of the export trade to Ireland is immense. The association must be congratulated for finding markets. It is good that cattle prices are doing well. There is no doubt there is discrimination in terms of grant aid. A way should be found to allow cattle to be tested in one's yard. One must consider the cost of sending a truck for cattle which are rejected and the stress caused to the animals.

Mr. Clarke said we should direct the Minister in this regard. Unfortunately, we are not able to do that, although there are times we would love to do so. I support the association's request and we will make the case to the Minister on its behalf.

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl

I thank the Irish Cattle Exporters Association for its presentation. I am worried that what it is saying is similar to what was said by other people in the export business in the past two months. We have good reason to be concerned about how Department officials deal with this trade. I appreciate the vital importance of the live export trade to the beef industry. As Senator MacSharry said, when we have good live exports, the farmers can expect a decent price for their animals. The reverse is also true. Senator Scanlon was right when he said we have regulated the butchery business out of existence. We should not allow the same to happen to the export trade because it would be disastrous for the beef industry. Perhaps we should accept the suggestions of members to contact the Minister and to write to the Department officials. It would also be practical and helpful if the relevant Department officials met us in the near future to discuss the concerns expressed.

Deputy Upton

Are the vets who check the animals in Dublin dedicated to that job or do they have alternative veterinary practices or commitments? How much manpower is involved? There might be some difficulties in terms of the role of vets and how that work is distributed around the country.

Mr. Clarke

Deputy Devins raised much the same question. It takes about two agricultural officers and one veterinary inspector to check a load of cattle in 30 to 50 minutes. If there is a big load of cattle in six or eight trucks, it might take four AOs and one veterinary inspector. The veterinary inspector examines the animals, does a spot-check on the documentation and signs the health certificate as being okay once the animals are passed. It is mainly a clerical task to check all the passports. Each animal has a passport and an export certificate. The AOs check the tag numbers with what they have written down on documentation, and check them off. That is quickly done now because the tag number can be read easily. The veterinary inspector examines the animals to see that they are okay and he looks at the documentation to see that everything is fine. There is no big deal about it. If the veterinary surgeon sees an animal with a sore eye or sore leg, he may not allow that animal to go. The AOs check the documentation and if a passport is out of date, that is if the 30-day test is out of date by one day, the AO will say the animal cannot go. If the documentation is not in order they cannot go. It is no big deal and one does not need many AOs to do it. Therefore, there is one veterinary inspector and two to four AOs depending on the number of cattle. Any exporter who is shipping two or three days a week would not have more than two loads of cattle going per day. Therefore, two AOs and a veterinary inspector should be able to do it in a few hours with no problem. One thing that will be required is computerisation in a farm office, which the exporters are willing to provide. They have them at the moment for their CMMS.

Basically, the vet looks at the animals to see if they are healthy and that there is no problem. Documentation is the most important thing and the animal seems to come second, unfortunately.

Deputy Devins

I wish to raise something to which Deputy Upton referred. The vets from the DVO have no particular expertise or extra training.

Mr. Clarke

No, they are usually departmental vets of senior standing. Their work might be a little bit easier than if they had to do a hard day's work.

Deputy Upton

Do not go there.

Chairman

Do you have any other comments on questions that were raised?

Mr. Clarke

The long-term problem is having our own yards passed. The short-term issue is why the regulation concerning Lenihan's lairage in Dublin is reducing the number of cattle being checked compared to nine months ago when they had no problem with the numbers. Now, all of a sudden there is a regulation which states that we can only do X number of cattle per day. It does not make sense to people who are working on the ground every day of the week. It is obviously a Civil Service problem and we do not understand it. I know the Minister cannot put his foot down but he can surely explain what is happening and why.

Mr. Maxwell

I wish to clear up one matter because not everyone may understand it. When the weather is rough and there are storms at sea, if we send two or three loads of cattle from the west, for example from Sligo, Roscommon or Mayo, to the lairage in Dublin for checking the next morning, it may be okay the following day and the cattle will be checked. During the morning, however, a storm may arise, which has happened in the past. As a result, those cattle may have to remain over in the lairage in Dublin or elsewhere for one, two or sometimes three days. That is a major expense. A number of those cattle will go out of date because one must have the animals cleared for export with an export test within 30 days. Sometimes up to ten cattle may not be eligible on the third day when the storm has abated. That causes major problems to exporters because they must get another lorry and replace the eight, nine or ten cattle whose export documentation may have expired by one or two days. They will have to be sent to Dublin and the rest must be collected. That is one of the reasons we feel it is very important that each exporter can have their cattle cleared in their own premises. If there is a problem at sea, one will know then that the cattle do not have to leave the assembly point. They can remain there under the care of the owner and his own veterinary personnel.

Chairman

How many exporters are there in the country? You talked about having facilities for every exporter.

Mr. Clarke

Currently, there is a maximum of a dozen. Five years ago there were probably a few hundred.

Chairman

Most of them, or a lot of them, are from the west.

Mr. Clarke

The majority.

Chairman

And the south.

Mr. Clarke

Yes, the south, including Kerry. The Department knows exactly how many exporters there are because they are paying the levies. The Department will say that one must have a certain standard for an export premises. We appreciate and understand that, and are willing to accept it, but the Department will not give us the guidelines on what we have to do because it says there are no staff. That is the answer. We are working with cattle in the marts and elsewhere every day. On many occasions we have travelled to Dublin to meet the Department's veterinary officers, yet we receive the same answer every time that there is no staff and it is not possible. We have heard every excuse under the sun.

Chairman

Individually, we have met a particular exporter from County Wicklow who wanted to meet us. That exporter has a fine facility on his own premises, yet he has to load calves and bring them to Rosslare, as well as bringing feeding materials——

Mr. Clarke

Milk powder

Chairman

——such as milk powder and hot water in churns. It is a crazy situation. He has to take the cattle off a lorry in Rosslare, feed them and re-bed the lorry. If he could do all that on his own premises before going straight to Rosslare it would be better. We certainly understand your situation too well because this man has contacted a number of us individually on numerous occasions. One feels sorry for him because of what he has to do. I am sure you are all in the same situation.

Mr. Clarke

We are actually in a worse situation.

Chairman

Yes, you are further away.

Mr. Clarke

Wicklow, Enniscorthy and Rosslare are not that far apart.

Chairman

That is right.

Mr. Clarke

We are on the other side of the country. Can you imagine calves going from Cork to Dublin to be checked, and back down to Rosslare, which is happening?

Chairman

It is crazy.

Mr. Clarke

It is ridiculous.

Chairman

It is.

Mr. Clarke

It is ridiculous up to a point but one must also look at the other side of it and ask why. Why does the Department want that? It is because the Department wants us to stop. They feel that if they stay long enough on our heads we will have to give in. That is the position. Now is the time to act, particularly with the mid-term review coming up and a whole new ball game with cattle prices next year.

Chairman

You have the full support of this committee. It is something we will have to deal with.

Deputy Kehoe

Does the Irish Cattle Exporters Association have much to do with the welfare groups? Perhaps this question was posed earlier, but are those groups following the ICEA on a regular basis? Does Mr. Clarke know about the animal welfare groups?

Mr. Clarke

Yes, we know about them all right.

Deputy Kehoe

I come from Wexford and I know they camp in Rosslare on a regular basis. Are they one of the biggest groups on the exporters' backs?

Mr. Clarke

I personally do not have a problem with them because at the end of the day it is about me buying animals, looking after them properly and getting them delivered to the customer. What these people do or say is up to themselves, but that is what I want to do. One cannot do anything with animal welfare people. They will always be there. If might be chickens today, pigs tomorrow or cattle the next day. What can one do with them? One cannot tell them to go away, but one can do one's own job well and then one will not have a problem with them and will not have to worry about them.

There will always be animal welfare people. I attended a farmers' meeting in Ennis about shipping and there were ten of them outside the door, but they were insignificant and nobody paid any heed of them.

Deputy Kehoe

I do not want to say anything bad about them. I just wanted to ask the question.

Mr. Clarke

We buy and pay for the animals. We do not get paid for our animals until they arrive in the country of destination. If they do not arrive in good condition, we get nothing for them. It is in our interest that the cattle are looked after well. Any person reared on a farm knows that most farmers feed their cattle in the morning before they feed themselves. Once one has that philosophy in mind, one does not have a problem. If one looks after the cattle, there will be no problem.

Senator Callanan

Mr. Clarke referred to the reduction in the number of inspections carried out in Lenihan's in Dublin. He stated he cannot understand it but I think he has an opinion as to why there was a reduction and I ask him to offer it.

Mr. Clarke

It is the same as what we were saying about travelling to a meeting of senior veterinarians in Dublin at which they state they have no staff. It seems they are trying to reduce the export by not facilitating the checking of whatever number of cattle appear in Dublin.

A year ago, if there were ten loads of cattle in Frank Lenihan's yard in Dublin, they were always checked and let away in time without a problem, particularly on a Saturday morning when they were getting an early boat. Often there would be nine or ten loads checked without a problem on a Saturday morning and everybody was happy. The Department's people worked well and there were no problems, but then something came from inside the Department on Kildare Street saying, "Slow down, boys".

Senator Callanan

Why is that happening?

Mr. Clarke

I cannot answer that. I do not know why.

Senator Callanan

Has Mr. Clarke a suspicion in that regard?

Chairman

Let Mr. Clarke answer the question.

Mr. Clarke

It appears to us who are exporting cattle that many of those people would prefer if they saw no beasts leaving the country.

Deputy Kehoe

Often I come across a similar problem in Wexford but it has to do with exporting pigs and bringing pigs to factories throughout the country. Would Mr. Clarke agree that departmental officials and veterinarians in different counties have different rules and regulations and often it depends on coming across a genuinely nice veterinarian who will carry out a job and come to a consensus with the farmer, and in other counties veterinarians will stick to the rigours of the law and will not meet the farmer half-way?

Mr. Clarke

That is true. It is like all walks of life. One meets gardaí who are not too bad and others who are strict. The one issue I have with the Department is that there are different rules for different counties and offices. The person who is used to animals does not have a problem because he or she understands it. The people who have a problem are the ones who do not understand cattle or anything they are doing. It is like putting a dairy science graduate into a veterinary college or vice versa — he or she would not have a clue. That is the way it is. In fairness, generally the local veterinary people are practical. The problem is in Dublin. Everyone says, “Dublin said.” We are here to ensure that Dublin does not say it anymore.

Senator MacSharry

Mr. Clarke did not mention shipping, the P&O scenario, the number of shipments per week and whether there should be a public service obligation to ensure that any shipping licensee has an obligation to take so many live animal shipments. Does he wish to touch on that?

Mr. Clarke

I would like to touch on it but we have touched on a great deal today. In a country which has islands like Scotland, for instance, each shipping company must carry livestock. It is ridiculous that if P&O pulled the plug tomorrow, we in this island nation would have no way out except by using live cattle boats. Most of the customers on the Continent do not want large numbers of cattle going on live cattle boats; they want individual truckloads. We would be much in favour of something being done in that regard for the future so that, under law, a roll-on ship would be entitled to take a certain number of animals. That is a serious point.

Chairman

I emphasise strongly the full support of this committee. On numerous occasions we have brought in Department officials and the Minister. We have brought in Commissioner Byrne on the transportation issue, which, as members stated, was ludicrous. We impressed upon him the importance to Ireland of the live trade and every member who spoke that day emphasised the importance of the live trade to the association.

Mr. Clarke

I was sitting in the corner the day Commissioner Byrne was here. He did the best bit of white-washing I ever saw.

Chairman

He might have but, in fairness to the members——

Mr. Clarke

That is correct, he did. He spoke of the many thousands of emails received. I could not open my mouth — I knew I would be put out if I did. What he was saying was ridiculous. Anybody, including the animal welfare people, could send in thousands of emails stating this has to stop and that is what he was reacting to.

Chairman

I am sure you accept that the members of this committee on that day emphasised to Commissioner Byrne the importance of the trade. Each member who spoke that day did so and I compliment them on the case they put across.

We also put the case to the Minister. I am confident the Minister is fully committed to the live export of cattle. Indeed, animal exports have risen from zero a number of years ago to nearly 500,000 last year. We want to keep that important trade going. As Senator MacSharry stated, it has helped to keep up cattle prices. If we were dependent solely on the meat factories, we know where we and the farmers of this country would be.

The cattle exporters have our full support. Certainly we will make contact with the Minister by letter immediately, advising him of the concerns of the Irish Cattle Exporters Association. We will also bring in the Department officials as soon as possible and raise all the association's concerns with lairage, assembly points etc. Is there anything you want to say before we conclude?

Mr. Hever

I do not know how many times in the past ten or 12 years in which I have been involved full time in exporting that I went to Dublin, thought I had a successful meeting and returned home only to find that was the end of it. I hope that will not be the case this time.

Politics should be direct. The Minister, Deputy Walsh, will probably come in and say "We are doing our best. We are working on it. There is nothing we can do." He might even come in and say "We cannot give every exporter a licensed premises." I know exactly what he will say. He must give everybody a licensed premises. We go out there and do our own job. We get no assistance from anybody. All we want is the facility to do that and fair play with grants and such like. It is ridiculous. If I put a tank in one end of my field, I will get a grant. If I put it in the other end of the field, I will not. To comply with my licence, I must be up to date. We are talking about spending considerable sums of money and if we must spend more, we are prepared to do so provided we get the facilities.

On behalf of the association, I thank the committee for having us here. I hope we will return to see that the committee has made progress. If not, these Deputies and Senators will have a rough time coming up to the election. The animal rights people were mentioned earlier. Mr. Clarke and Mr. Maxwell referred to cattle being vetted in the yards and dispatched from there. The Department is placing more stress on animals by not doing what it should do. Some of these animals are being obliged to make extra journeys and to return to yards from Dublin, Rosslare or wherever. I give credit to those who made a very good case on this matter. People present at this meeting appear to have heard things that they had not heard before and were surprised by them.

On behalf of my colleagues, I thank the Chairman and the committee for inviting us to come before them. We have been given a good hearing. As Mr. Clarke stated, I hope this will not be the last of it and that results will be achieved.

Chairman

Members have received information in plain language from the horse's mouth today and they are now clearly aware of the position. As stated earlier, individual members met one particular exporter in Wicklow to hear what he had to say. However, we have again heard it from those who came before us today.

Senator Scanlon

Approximately 70% of the cattle exported from Ireland originate in the west. It is sad and absolutely ludicrous that there is not one yard in the west at which cattle can be checked and tested before being sent to the boat at Rosslare.

Chairman

I fully agree with the Senator. I thank Mr. Clarke and his colleagues for attending and for their contributions to this informative discussion.

If there is no other business, we will adjourn until tomorrow at 3 p.m. when we will hear from Ms Mary Carroll, equality officer of the IFA, on women in agriculture. I hope the committee's sole female member will be present tomorrow.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.45 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 7 April 2004.