JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FOOD debate -
Wednesday, 25 Apr 2007

Irish Food Industry: Discussion with DIT.

Chairman

I welcome Dr. Michael Mulvey, Professor Marlene Proctor, Dr. Gary Henehan and Dr. Aodán Ó Cearbhaill from the faculty of tourism and food at the Dublin Institute of Technology, who will make a presentation on the development of the food industry in Ireland. Before I ask Mr. Mulvey to commence his presentation, I draw attention to the fact that while members of this committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not extend to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way that would make him or her identifiable.

I apologise to Mr. Mulvey and his colleagues because we were not in a position to facilitate a Powerpoint presentation today. Rather than reading out the document, Mr. Mulvey might summarise it.

Dr. Michael Mulvey

I thank the committee for the opportunity to make this presentation, along with my colleagues. We will then be happy to join a discussion.

We sought this opportunity to meet the committee because we respond to areas of great interest to members, namely, food and agriculture. The faculty itself responds to the tourism and food sectors. The faculty focuses on the post farm gate produce. With the diversification of agriculture into tourism, the sector represents an important part of the tourism product. The faculty is unique in that it brings together the areas of culinary arts, the food sciences and pharmaceutical sciences. We differ in how we respond to these two sectors. We want to articulate that and show members what we are doing. By our faculty programmes, research, scholarship and involvement with industry and society we are anticipating the future. We are here to listen to the feedback of members so that we can take it on board and incorporate it in our activities.

The links between tourism and food are numerous. With more than 6 million foreign visitors to Ireland each year, we have an opportunity to market not only the landscape, culture and built environment but Irish food products. A good cuisine is an important factor in creating an impression of Irish food products. We have an opportunity to impress people and create a market for Irish products in their home countries.

The faculty of tourism and food in the Dublin Institute of Technology responds to these two significant sectors and we have had continuous growth in our undergraduate programmes, master programmes and research to PhD level. We are extremely fortunate to attract highly motivated students who are interested in careers in the tourism and food industry. Within DIT there is a great sense of collegiality and community and the faculty of tourism and food is based in Cathal Brugha Street, formerly the College of Catering and in a previous incarnation it was known as St. Mary's College. We know from feedback that students experience a great sense of community in our faculty and that is an important part of the student experience. We endeavour at all times to take a partnership approach to all our activities within the faculty and across DIT.

We operate in a very competitive environment. Successive governments have set targets for greater participation. Education in the 21st century is a driver for economic growth. We seek to achieve not just by doing things on our own but by collaboration and by partnerships and by sharing the costs and accessing expertise. We strive for social inclusion. With participation levels in the region of 55% to 60%, depending on how one quantifies them, there is still a way to go. While we do not have full levels of participation, the nation loses out on the ideas and creativity of that section of the community which does not make it to third level.

Today there is a demand for choice and flexibility in education. People want to access education in bite size pieces tailored to their lifestyles. We are working hard to meet this trend by modularisation of our curriculum. We are conscious of new knowledge domains. Old disciplines change and new combinations of disciplines are created as we attempt to respond to the external environment in the tourism and food sectors. We have identified three areas, competitiveness, innovation and consumer focused marketing which are required for these sectors to continue to make progress. We try to operationalise our response to the environment and to education in the 21st century through the triangle of knowledge, teaching, and research and innovation.

I have circulated a comprehensive list of our education programmes to the committee. I do not propose to talk through the list but I draw the committee's attention to a number of them. We engage in everything from skills based programmes, such as the certificate in professional cookery which goes back to the origins of the college, to masters' programmes in areas such as food safety. We have developed a BA degree in culinary arts and a BSc in tourism marketing for people wishing to work as community officers for county councils or with voluntary groups or large companies. More recently we developed a BSc in nutroceuticals, health and nutrition. This responds to the demand for functional and fortified foods. My colleagues, Gary, Aodán and Marlene will comment on that later.

It is a feature of DIT programmes that we offer a ladder of opportunity. A student who enters at certificate level can progress to an ordinary degree, a four year degree and a masters' degree. No one goes into a cul-de-sac. Students can come in and out of education as they wish. A student can start on a short programme and progress to a PhD.

We have many approaches to teaching and I draw the committee's attention to one of them. In an attempt to serve society and the community better, we are developing a community learning model. This involves assessing the student across a range of subjects using a project within the community and encouraging the student to engage with a not-for-profit organisation and to reflect on environmental, community and wider societal issues and on how they impact on the student's subject area. That is funded by the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs.

A number of colleagues are the chief examiners for the Department of Education and Science in areas such as restaurant service and pastry and professional cookery. A colleague is chairperson of the International Federation of Environmental Health, another holds the presidency of the World Association of Cooks Societies. We are a world tourism organisation. We have UN designation as a centre for education and research and representation on the Food Safety Authority.

Our areas of research will be close to the hearts of committee members. We have accessed very good funding through the food industry research measures. We have researched food safety and shelf life and microbial reduction in fruit juices using ozone reduction and ultrasound. These are all collaborative projects. We do not try to do things on our own but collaborate as much as possible. We have looked at the quality of mushrooms and shelf life prediction and at developing functional foods using by-products from fruit, vegetables and fish. We have also established a group to bring together the pharma and biometic research areas. Other research initiatives include the development of organic breads and confectionery and the production of a range of Irish hearth breads, which was a collaborative project.

On the tourism side, we have a project on developing sustainability indicators, which is funded by the Environmental Protection Agency. The culinary arts area has always been successful, particularly through awards in competitions such as the Culinary Olympics and EuroSkills.

In the triangle of teaching, research and innovation, we see innovation as the application of research. There is no point in engaging in research unless its results are disseminated. We do this through a number of research centres but also because our graduates go forth into industry, set up their own businesses, become involved in projects and bring ideas from their education into the environment. We facilitate colleagues in collaborating with companies. We participate in external bodies such as the environmental health organisation and the Irish Tourist Industry Confederation.

With regard to lifelong learning, there are a number of experienced people in the areas of environmental health, tourism, culinary arts and food generally. Going forward, one of our initiatives will be to develop a programme of professional doctorates which recognise the achievements of these people and bring their learning back into academia.

The members are probably aware that DIT through the initiatives of successive Governments is to move to a new campus at Grangegorman. It is a very welcome opportunity to which we are looking forward and it has represented a great shot in the arm for the institute. The move will allow us to build on and improve what we do and to bring together our various activities more effectively.

My colleagues will elaborate on some of the points I have made.

Dr. Gary Henehan

Uniquely, DIT brings to research a blend of food and pharmaceutical sciences. As we go forward, there will be a significant emphasis on and market for foods which have a positive impact on health over and above their nutritional value. We have seen the great success of yogurt drinks which can lower cholesterol and will see many more such products. The development of food expertise at DIT alongside pharmaceutical expertise will be a key strength for us going forward. It is a sector that deserves a great deal more support and attention given the potentially very attractive margins for industry.

Dr. Aodán Ó Cearbhaill

DIT is a leader in Ireland in the culinary arts and has a very good international reputation. DIT was the first institution to introduce an honours degree in this area by blending the vocational approach or ability of a student to cook with an underpinning technical and academic rigour. One of our key aims is to develop the idea of Irish gastronomy. I am sure the members are well-travelled and have been to France and Germany and experienced the beautiful foods and ambience. It is part of our mission to develop these things in an Irish context and contribute to the experiences of tourists and Irish people themselves. Thanks to the great support we have had over the years, we are well on our way to succeeding.

Professor Marlene Proctor

I will adopt an overview of tourism and food and add to the points my colleagues have made about what DIT can contribute which is distinctive. Our faculty is unique in that members deal with both food and tourism. Food is quite a strong constituent of tourism. Food and tourism are multi and interdisciplinary areas which the composition of the faculty reflects in its expertise. We are ideally placed to take advantage of the various sources of funding which are now available with the new framework programme and other Government provisions, including the surf and turf initiative announced yesterday for the agriculture and marine sectors. Another of the faculty's strengths is its coverage of both natural sciences and the business and humanities area. While the research approaches in these areas are different, it is interesting to note that the end product is somewhat similar. It demonstrates the fact that there is a need for different metrics, in which context we have promoted the importance of competition. DIT's ability to cover the social and business aspects of research, the importance of which has been increasingly recognised, means we can look at food from a total perspective.

Chairman

I thank the delegation for its presentation. I will now take questions from members.

Deputy Naughten

I welcome Dr. Mulvey and his colleagues to the meeting this afternoon and thank them for their presentation. The delegation is taking the right approach in terms of marrying primary food production with the value added sector in respect of food, tourism and the pharma industry.

The traditional lines drawn between agriculture, food, tourism, pharma and so on have pigeonholed us and restricted development of this sector. From an agricultural perspective, if we are to have viable family farms and viable primary food production in future, farmers will require a significant increase in the return on their farm gate price. The thrust of where the organisation wants to go is the way Ireland Inc. needs to go in respect of its food industry.

While foreign direct investment is important and welcome, the agriculture and food area has been, to a certain extent, ignored or sidelined in recent years. We are all aware of the vulnerability of jobs in this area. The key principle in respect of agriculture and food is that it is indigenous industry that is tied to this country: it cannot simply up and leave. Also, it has the potential to be a sustainable plank in the development of our economy.

My main concern is that primary food manufacturing, using raw materials and producing basic food products, is beginning to shift to the UK because of high costs here. This trend could develop unless we invest in primary research and applied research in developing the food-pharma sector and we will be seen as the bread basket for food and pharma manufacturing in the UK. We cannot allow that to happen. Science Foundation Ireland and the Government have at long last realised that we must invest in this area.

What does the delegation see as the timescale, based on the funds now being slowly released to build up the critical mass to have a significant research capability here? Tourism was mentioned in the presentation. The point was made that we need to impress on tourists the quality of our food product so that when they return home they will purchase our foods. I have two questions in that regard. The sale of third country foods within our catering industry is causing significant problems. How damaging is this to our indigenous food industry and tourism sector as a whole? The beef industry is also experiencing problems in terms of beef labelling within the catering trade, though I appreciate the delegation may not wish to go into this issue now. The problem is being ignored right across the board by the catering industry.

All members of this committee have been abroad and have come across supermarkets retailing Irish meat products. It is often difficult to differentiate between the Irish product usually located in a small corner of the store and indigenous local product. Does the delegation believe there is a role for a distinctive Irish food label that is instantly recognisable not only in Ireland but throughout the European Union?

Perhaps Dr. Mulvey could give us an example of the development of functional foods through the use of by-products from the fruit, vegetable and fish processing industries. This has the potential to give the primary producer an additional return on a by-product which up to now the producer has had difficulty disposing of and which imposed a cost on the processor which was passed back to the primary producer. That is a very interesting topic on which Dr. Mulvey might elaborate.

I wish turn to the issue of fruit juice production. Currently, there is a heavy focus in this House on water. Water is a basic product in food processing. The point is made that €500,000 is being spent on antimicrobial reduction using ozone and ultrasound technology. How applicable would that be to public drinking water supplies? It appears it is a technology that could be transferred. Cryptosporidium contamination is the topic of the moment. Would it be feasible to use that technology in that regard? Perhaps I am being too technical.

What is the source of antimicrobial peptides on which research is being conducted?

Deputy Upton

I welcome Dr. Mulvey and his colleagues and thank them for their presentation. Lest any of my questions lead to compromising situations, I should declare a minor interest. I was formerly an external examiner for undergraduate and postgraduate courses at Kevin Street and Cathal Brugha Street.

Chairman

I hope the Deputy was not too hard on the students.

Deputy Upton

Standards were very good. I congratulate the DIT on the culinary arts, of which I am conscious, as I see it frequently winning awards abroad. It seems to have a very strong international status and reputation which is great for Irish food and industry and should be recognised as part of our food programme because clearly it is important from a marketing point of view.

I reiterate much of what Deputy Naughten said in regard to food and the need to develop our indigenous food industry. I understand that much of the research programme is of an applied nature. What level of success has been achieved in getting new or modified products to the marketplace? Historically, much time has been spent on producing new products that have failed. I appreciate the difficulties surrounding this. There is a recognised failure rate in respect of any new product, whether food or anything else, and it is a difficult problem to overcome. Products such as organic and hearth breads have been mentioned. Have these found a market niche? Are there others that have got onto the market and been a success?

I attended a multicultural function at lunchtime, the purpose of which was to give us a sample of many international foods. We had Chinese, Japanese and Spanish food and so on and I sampled them all. We also had Irish food, Irish stew. There was nothing wrong with it but I wondered, if one were to offer the quintessential Irish food product or range of foods to tourists, what would the delegation recommend? That question is prompted by my experience this afternoon which was very pleasant with very nice food. What else would be seen as typically Irish? Is this an important factor?

In regard to the research programme, I note there is collaboration with Teagasc, while the FIRM programme is ongoing. Is there significant industry funding also? If there is, is product development or the outcome of research tied to the industry that provided the funding? What are the implications of this? In other words, can it be delivered to the wider Irish food or agriculture industry? The combination of the pharmaceutical and food elements is a good one, but will our guests tell the committee what kind of jobs will be available to pharmaceutical graduates — I am unsure of their titles, but whatever the basic qualification is — and how many will be employed in Irish industry?

DIT is engaged in minimal processing, which may be attractive from a consumer's point of view. A contradiction on the part of consumers is that we like our food fresh, cheap, widely available and safe without the use of chemicals. Without being too technical, which aspects of minimal processing is DIT engaged in and how useful is it in the marketplace? I know about modified atmosphere packaged food, any risks and the advantages of that research process.

Will our guests comment on DIT's environmental health graduates, who fall under this banner and have an important role in terms of food in particular? We need many more such graduates. We have a situation in which Irish beef used in catering is supposed to be labelled on menus, but there are no inspectors to monitor that requirement. What are the limitations on DIT's production, as it were, of environmental health officers? For example, we do not appreciate the limitations in terms of allowances for recruitment in the public service.

I congratulate DIT on its community learning initiative. DIT brings its research activities and teaching skills into the community, from which it learns in turn.

Deputy Hoctor

I apologise for being late. I welcome Dr. Mulvey and his colleagues, including my fellow county person, Dr. Aodán Ó Cearbhaill, a long-term friend.

In the past ten years, we have seen a dramatic ethnic and cultural change in our society. There has been a considerable change in the diet and lifestyle of the Irish and those who have reached our shores and become as Irish as ourselves in many ways. For example, the consumption of potatoes has decreased or been replaced by pasta, and Guinness has been replaced by wine, or so we have been told by the Department. How has our guests' faculty responded to the changes in its approach to devising its programme of learning for students?

It is the aim of the Department, the Minister and the Government to promote Ireland as a food island. The quality of our food has improved, to which DIT has contributed as a leader in terms of its expertise in cooking and presentation. We are happy to have our guests' expertise before us, but what is their opinion on how committee members, as legislators, the Minister and her Department could work on further promoting the food island concept?

Deputy Crawford

I welcome the guests. I will not go into the academic end of the discussion too much. As a practising farmer and someone who spent seven years on the Irish Livestock and Meat Board, I visited many shows to ascertain the capabilities of the opposition. I am interested in research and how it can be undertaken to maximise the value of the product we have available. We all claim that our products, including beef, milk and poultry, are among the best in the world. We have rigorous regulations to show how and where the product was produced. At the same time a considerable level of imported product is being mixed through because no effort is made to show the difference.

On the first slide in the presentation mushroom quality is mentioned. I come from Monaghan, the home of the mushroom. However, fewer than one fifth of farmers are producing mushrooms and competing in the market compared with five years ago. While research is important, if we cannot utilise its findings to retain those working in the field and our share of the market, the situation is serious. Members of the committee travelled to the research unit in University College Cork and the Teagasc facility in Moorepark.

Regarding dairy products, one of the highlights mentioned was Baileys Irish Cream. However, it is some considerable time since the development of that product which has had great benefit for the country. One must ask when we might develop a product of that nature which would deliver returns and create a specific Irish niche in the market. We can no longer compete on the basis of export refunds and various subsidies. We must compete with a quality end product. While I recognise the excellent job being done by the Faculty of Food and Tourism at Dublin Institute of Technology, I question how that work can be turned into an end product. I know the institute's graduates are working in the industry. From my involvement with Denis Brosnan on the board of CBF, I know that organisations such as his were recruiting the institute's students, even before they graduated. We need to maximise the benefit to the agri-industry. In recent weeks there was grant aid for dairy products, 60% of which was allocated to the production of cheddar cheese. However, there seems little scope to widen production and create more opportunities.

Deputy Upton

There has been considerable discussion recently about the number working in the catering industry whose first language is not English. Does Dr. Mulvey believe this has an impact on the tourism industry, as we hear? If so, how might this issue be addressed to create an environment in which the typical Irish welcome can prevail?

Dr. Mulvey

That is a formidable list of questions. I will address some of them and refer others to my colleagues who may cut across me as necessary. If we are not getting to the nub of the question, members should say so.

On the issue of timescale, teams need to be in place and expertise needs to be developed to access the fund, operationalise the research and disseminate it in the market to which Deputy Crawford referred. In the past ten to 12 years this process began in the areas of food production and tourism. It may have been slow but it is a cumulative process. There is an element of building the expertise and retaining a team of people who improve at it.

The funds made available in recent years have had a positive effect. However, it takes institutions time to internalise, access and apply them and achieve results. The level of expertise and knowledge has been built steadily and we wish to continue on our current trajectory. We are doing this in collaboration with others but it is cumulative. The performance of Irish food companies is having a visible effect on Irish cuisine. We are on a good trajectory and it is important to maintain the current level of funding and undertake constant reviews to ensure it can be accessed and managed easily.

Professor Proctor

I would approach the timescale issues raised by Deputy Naughten by drawing out different aspects of the research and development process. There are two dimensions — scientific development based on the fundamental research and commercial development. In recent times considerable efforts have been focused on the scientific developments to provide the underpinning knowledge for the safe products mentioned by the Deputy which are readily available to the consumer. There may well be wrong perceptions in understanding the commercial aspect of the development and, while much attention in our institute and others has been focused on developing products, it is essentially done at the pre-competitive stage.

The Deputy asked whether our research was available generally to the industry or to one company only. In the science area we position ourselves in the pre-competitive stage, which means we work in collaboration with particular industries and the results are disseminated through scientific literature, on various industry days and by other modern means of dissemination. Effort needs to be put into the interface between the scientific development and commercial output of a product. That is a cost for industry which is not always noted for its input in this area, although the bigger companies have changed in this regard recently. The scientific element is a process of discovery which is almost lifelong. The ideal is to reduce the timeframe between scientific and commercial development.

Dr. Henehan

With regard to the engagement with industry and the problems encountered in this regard, the larger players in the sector have the resources and, in particular, the staff to address research issues but the smaller players do not. It would be very useful to provide those companies with people who could be in a position to engage with new research and development knowledge. I refer to initiatives such as sabbatical leave for academic staff who might spend a period in industry with a company to exchange knowledge and vice versa. That cross-fertilisation process could be accelerated in an active way. However, there is a difficulty moving from the pre-competitive research stage to products. It is not always possible for an educational institution to take all those steps and to be as involved in the product development, launch and marketing that might be needed. Very often, companies are not in position to do that. It is not their priority or it may not be part of their product range for a variety of reasons but it is an area we could target.

Deputy Naughten asked about the various functional foods, where they come from and the use of by-products. At a very crude level, we can examine by-products where parts of food, predominantly fibre, can be discarded and recovered to add to other foods. That is a crude use of functional foods from waste materials. We do not know the answer to this but there is also the possibility that food products are chemically complex. There may be proteins and peptides in those food matrices that might have a positive benefit on health. Omega fatty acids are found in fish oils, for example, but a great deal of fish oil is discarded.

Deputy Crawford referred to mushroom quality and yields. Our project will, hopefully, lead to improved yields of mushrooms. We are examining damaged mushrooms, which result in significant losses. If we could solve those problems in a way that is not labour intensive, we would, hopefully, increase yields through an automated means. That might go some way to addressing the problems with costs. Foreign competitors have effectively squashed that market in Ireland.

With regard to the new Baileys Irish Cream product, as Isaac Newton said, "If I have seen farther, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants". People must be in the game engaged in research so that those with innovative ideas can emerge from that cohort. If we hang in there, these developments will come along but they are a question of not only science and technology but also of the readiness of the market to accept them. With regard to Deputy Naughten's question, marketing and branding are a critical part of selling new products and innovations. We may have products that work and sell but they do not have the marketing behind them.

Deputy Crawford

When I was on the meat board, we created a market for high-quality beef in Germany. Unfortunately, because of export refunds and opportunities that arose in other markets that were more profitable at the time, we walked away from a market to which we exported 10,000 tonnes of high-quality beef and we have not recovered that share yet. We changed from high-quality beef to cow meat and the high-quality beef was exported to other markets. We have a history of doing this and it is part of the problem. We are stuck with a scenario of no subsidies.

We have no choice but to maximise our performance in the marketplace with our quality products.

Dr. Henehan

The issue of branding and labelling was raised. A number of attempts have been made to brand food. Brands such as Kerrygold have had enormous success and marketing has a very significant part to play in this area. It is true that we have an image of French or Italian food but not of Irish food. There has not been a successful attempt to brand Irish food as a product with a distinct identity. This is an area where some work and effort might be worthwhile.

The use of ozone and ultrasound in water purification is new technology. A large number of alternative technologies are being proposed to lower the bacterial count in fruit juices. This is potentially interesting if it works. We are still at the stage of trying to find out how well it works. We simply do not know if it could be applied to water. I could not say whether or not it would be effective against cryptosporidium. It is certainly an interesting idea and one that may be worth looking at.

Dr. Mulvey

The issue of caterers accessing food from other countries is interesting. Dr. Ó Cearbhaill might address that point.

Dr. Ó Cearbhaill

I was interested in Deputy Upton's fundamental question regarding what Irish food is. We grapple with this issue every day in our school. It is only with increased confidence in our economy and the growth of knowledge and skills-based education that we have been able to consider these issues. Financial support from the Oireachtas has allowed us to research the issue and to evolve the notion of Irish food and cuisine. This will take time and I do not have all the answers. It is often said among the academic staff that the wholemeal bread our mothers made is one of the few food products which are unique to Ireland. The quality of our fish and shellfish and what we do with them are excellent. Slowly but surely a distinct Irish cuisine is beginning to emerge within a broader European context.

Many of our graduates are beginning to work with large companies as food product development chefs. A food product development unit is attached to the faculty and many of our lecturers work with it. Its results are often highly confidential so I cannot discuss them. However, I can say that many of the wholesalers and retailers who would not traditionally have been involved in the kind of cuisine one sees in restaurants knock on the door of the food development unit.

We are beginning to see a focus on health and organic food. Our research into organic food indicates that many of the claimed health benefits of organic food do not exist. The principal benefit of organic food is to the environment and the soil. The question of the amount of organic production one can have must also be considered. We are working constantly on all of these issues. I do not have an answer to the question of what constitutes Irish food. I can only say we are working on the issue and I believe the answer will emerge.

It is important that we promote a quality tourism image of Ireland and of Irish food. We cannot compete with the low price end of the market. An enormous quantity of food is imported into Ireland and I sometimes wonder what control is exercised on much of it. This area must be monitored carefully to ensure that imported food is of good quality. That said, we need to have our own house in order. A focus on quality, up-market, value-added initiatives is the correct one to adopt. That is our focus in the school and all our graduates are gainfully employed.

Dr. Mulvey

On Deputy Naughten's questions, it is important to note the issue of food imports. The true origin of foods coming into catering establishments is not always obvious, which is a difficult issue. I do not have an answer for the Deputy at this moment, but it is useful to get some feedback. Part of the solution relates to the professionalism of people in the industry who should not deal with products of dubious origin. There is a high standard of professionalism in the industry, for which DIT forms part of the support structure. The problem emphasises the need for continued entry of professionally trained people into the industry. There is a good and developing level of food safety and traceability in Ireland, which has a cumulative effect. The education of the Irish consumer, who is now very discerning, has also been cumulative. More and more often, people are asking from where their food originates. There is no single answer to the problem. It is a question of consumers not accepting anything inferior and professionals refusing to allow products to enter through the back door. On the Government side, environmental health officers also have a role to play. There is no magic bullet, however.

Bord Bía is doing very effective work on labelling. We supported the board in its successful initiative during the Ryder Cup to promote Irish food. Deputy Naughten asked specifically about beef labelling, but I am not sure if we have a specific view on the matter. It is a very specific marketing and merchandising question. Perhaps my colleagues wish to contribute.

Dr. Ó Cearbhaill

Some restaurants have become involved in clearly stating on menus the origin of their beef. The initiative may need to be beefed up, so to speak. Sometimes self-regulation does not work as well as a more formal structure. People are becoming much more concerned about health and safety which suggests an appeal on that level to consumers would prompt them to ask more questions about the sources of food.

Deputy Naughten

My question was something of a curve ball. The Department does not even know what it is doing in this area.

Dr. Mulvey

It is useful to have a signal. We will take the Deputy's points on board and reflect on what we have heard today. We cannot attempt to provide the members with complete answers and solutions today, but it is useful to know what their concerns are.

I was aware of Deputy Upton's involvement in DIT over the years, for which I thank her. She asked specific questions on food products with which we have had some involvement through the food product development centre. Most of the products developed have been proprietary. There have been some successes in the seafood area in bringing products from the development stage through to market. It is a difficult area. An efficient interface between academia and industry is a great idea, but bringing it into operation is difficult. DIT performs the task through a range of initiatives including centres and graduate collaboration with industry on research projects. Part of the difficulty is that very large companies tend to keep research to themselves while smaller companies do not have the funds required. While we have discussed funding for small companies, by their nature they do not have the specialist skills or time to access it. It is an area that requires work. There is a willingness on the part of the DIT and all other third level institutes to operationalise this research. In relation to the hearth breads project, Mr. Derek O'Brien from the bakery sector of the DIT has been very active and successful in this area.

Dr. Ó Cearbhaill

The issue of confidentiality arises in that while we do the work with it, we are often not allowed to publish the research. It is interesting, however, that we are being asked to undertake more of these projects. In particular, our graduates are taking up positions they would not have taken up traditionally. They are no longer taking up positions cooking in kitchens only but are finding employment in food product development. The long-term cumulative effect of this will be great. However, it is a slow process. We do not have instant answers for members. This slow, steady and carefully thought out strategy is yielding results and will yield even better results in the future.

Dr. Mulvey

A positive element of research funded through Science Foundation Ireland is that the findings can be disseminated and made available to everybody. This is the positive element of Government funded research. The involvement of industry carries with it the caveat that its findings are kept confidential. There is a reasonable mix. It is good to have industry involvement but it is equally good to have research findings disseminated.

Dr. Henehan will respond to Deputy Upton's specific question regarding pharmaceutical graduates and their destinations.

Dr. Henehan

The neutraceuticals nutritional health programme being launched by us is the first of its kind in this country. It is the first to utilise the strengths referred to involving the blending of food and pharma skills. It is, as far as we know, one of the first in Europe, although there are such programmes in the United States. We have not yet had graduates and as such, do not know where they will go. When designing the programme, we tried to determine the direction in which the industry would go and envisage there will be a lot more interest in the area of neutraceuticals. We believe there will be room for our graduates in areas such as product development. We were also interested to learn that many of the major pharmaceutical companies were targeting neutraceuticals as an area of interest for them because of problems with their drug development pipelines in the first instance and because the lead-in time to the market with neutraceuticals was substantially shorter than for traditional drug products. This is mainly due to the fact that, by and large, neutraceuticals are food components which are already in of our diet and, therefore, more acceptable and easier to get over regulatory hurdles. I envisage there will be outlets for our graduates in the food and pharmaceutical industries.

Minimally processed foods were mentioned. We have examined different types and tried to gauge the effectiveness of one versus another in terms of its effect in reducing microbial load. The Deputy pointed to the exact problem, namely, that we want cheap fresh and safe food. There is a contradiction because minimal processing essentially means doing as little as possible to food in order to preserve it in its freshest state or as close to its natural state as possible. However, one risks carrying over bacteria that might be present in its natural state.

We have had some success in certain areas. A striking example is our discovery of what happens when one subjects lettuce products to brief periods of heat shock. One might think that if one heated lettuce for any period of time it would wilt. That is true if one goes too far but one can, inside a very narrow window, heat shock lettuce and extend its shelf life dramatically by a number of weeks. However, this exercise must be carefully controlled.

The next question for us is how that can be translated into an industrial setting and whether it can be accomplished on an industrial scale. We are looking at washing with organic acids and compounds like this. We are also looking at mixtures of treatments, organic acids combined with heat shock or combined with microwave treatment. We are at the early stages of these kinds of investigations, at least in respect of some, and we do not know all the answers yet. However, we hope to come out of this with a clearer picture of what works and what does not work so that we can feed into industry. There has been quite a bit of industry interest in heat shock, but it has to be very carefully controlled.

Dr. Mulvey

In response to the question on environmental health graduates, I may not have got all the detail. Producing them is not an issue. To some extent there is a ceiling on our intake in that there is an industrial placement with the health boards which dictates that to some extent. However, there would not be an issue in regard to recruiting more because there is quite an amount of interest in that area. Deputy Upton envisaged an additional role for them. Could she clarify that?

Deputy Upton

I was talking about the labelling issue and the assessment of whether Irish beef was labelled in restaurants.

Dr. Mulvey

A wider inspectorate?

Deputy Upton

My understanding is that requirement has not been fulfilled. That is an example of how we put in place a legislative requirement and are unable to deliver on it. It appears we cannot deliver on it because of the lack of personnel capable of carrying out that work because they are overloaded with other work. It is not a question for DIT. It is a comment. The delegation has answered it in so far as it has said DIT would provide as many environmental health officers as are needed, obviously with some limitations, presumably based on laboratory requirements and so on.

Dr. Mulvey

That is right. It is an area that attracts highly motivated and interested individuals. Dr. Gary Henehan is involved in that area. It attracts very good students. Deputy Upton would have had contact with them when she was an external examiner.

Deputy Upton

Yes. As far as I recall the entry points have increased significantly, indicating great interest in the area, which is also very welcome.

Dr. Henehan

I spoke to the final year class this week and three or four have already secured employment with industries that are interested in their area of expertise. The unique blend of regulatory affairs and sciences is very attractive to a number of companies that are interested in their regulatory compliance in a number of areas. They are very high quality graduates. We can train more. It has been rightly pointed out that the bottleneck is the laboratories and amount we can process through the laboratories.

Dr. Mulvey

Could I return to Deputy Upton's comments on food? We all want low cost widely available food. That links in with Deputy Naughten's comments as well. There is a link to health promotion. Maybe the willingness to pay more for better food can somehow or other be linked into the notion of health promotion and promoting the nutritional aspects of food rather than focusing only on price. It is very difficult, depending on the income group, but there is an issue of having a market for quality food, where we are strong in Ireland. The issues are quality, promotion and health promotion.

Professor Proctor

I wish to broaden the domain of environmental health and take in the issue of ethnic and cultural change that Deputy Hoctor mentioned. Traditionally environmental health evolved in post-industrial revolution times and addressed what were then problems of the day, such as, difficulties with water, housing and the rate of transmission of infectious diseases due to overcrowding. As Western society developed, these issues were addressed. While we have a new set of problems that tend to hinge on quality of life and so forth, the underlying problems have not gone away and need attention.

In the current climate, the need for national environmental health action plans is recognised by the World Health Organisation and at European level. The Department of Health and Children's draft national environmental plan is on some iteration. The idea is that it should encompass all aspects of the interaction between the individual and the environment so that issues of multiculturalism, including the language difficulties referred to by Deputy Upton, or the interaction, which has always been dispersed between various Departments, would be viewed under the same umbrella.

The institute and our faculty have expressed interest in hosting a national environmental health action plan centre where we would carry out some of the underlying studies necessary to promote the positive approach to health implicit in the questions asked, which also relate to food, labelling and the general behaviour of consumers, producers and everyone else. It would serve to leverage all of the knowledge of the professionals involved in environmental health issues, not least of which is nutrition. We have been discussing food, but there has been an historical division between it and nutrition as if they were separate entities. It is important that they be brought together within the context of blending matters of food, health, diet, lifestyle, cultures and levels of potato and pasta consumption and examined in a modern way. For example, there are programmes in Dr. Ó Cearbhaill's area of culinary arts to cater for health, which is a significant development.

There are other issues and we should refer to what occurs in Europe. The faculty is taking part in a European programme on examining what the heating processes used in different methods of cooking food do to constituents. There is an acceptance that heating is good because it gets rid of microbes, but it can have a down side. Different processes are used in different cultures and may affect health over a longer term. As my colleague Dr. Henehen stated, food is a complex matrix and it is not always easy to attribute an effect to a particular issue.

Regarding the comment on Irish food, I view it in light of the culinary heritages of Ireland and Europe. We are seeking to become part of a European group that is examining copyrighting, so to speak, particular culinary products that are characteristics of certain regions. This country is not to the fore in doing that and there is scope for us to get involved in the area.

Dr. Mulvey

That addresses some of the questions. That is a particularly significant initiative for us to become involved in.

Professor Proctor

It comes back to earlier questions about the rural aspects of developments in the country and blending the tourism product with the food product in a particular way.

Dr. Mulvey

I believe that addresses Deputy Hoctor's questions.

Deputy Hoctor

There is a remarkable trend in diet. The Dublin Institute of Technology is a leading institution in the area and programmes would need to respond to meet that need. We have Irish people with foreign accents who have very good English and are integrated into our local communities. Their traditional dishes along with their integration into our traditions represent an internal tourism market. I am sure the institute's programmes will reflect that change away from what was traditional Irish food.

Dr. Mulvey

Very much so. We would add to the knowledge base in the country and also draw from the best of international products, trends and techniques used.

Dr. Ó Cearbhaill

Bringing international people from abroad to teach their specialist subject would be a regular feature. On our staff we would have half a dozen non-Irish nationals who bring with them their expertise. We have a very well developed system of new programme development, through which we constantly introduce new modules as the demand arises. The aspect of diet and health is starting to filter through in virtually all the cooking programmes. For example people often ask whether cream can be replaced with yoghurt, etc. Some of my students carry out experimental cooking focused on these emerging trends.

Dr. Mulvey

Deputy Upton raised an important point about the language skills of people working in the catering industry. It is most important for anyone coming to work in any industry here to receive the benefits of education and training that everybody else gets. If they are working in a hotel, restaurant or factory they should be integrated into the team. For instance we provide evening programmes to help people in the catering industry upskill into supervisory management. A substantial number of them are foreigners. It provides a useful networking opportunity and helps them settle into the country. Education has a part to play in ensuring that foreign workers can become as much a part of the Irish welcome as the Irish workers. That is the way to proceed.

Chairman

There is considerable emphasis on low fat foods. Are they all they are made out to be or is it all in the mind?

Dr. Mulvey

They do all they claim they will do provided one eats them in moderation and eats a range of them. It is a lifestyle issue — it is not just the food.

Deputy Naughten

The Chairman will burn them all off in the next few weeks anyway.

Dr. Henehan

If they claim to be low fat then they are. We can be confident of that now.

Chairman

I thank Dr. Mulvey and his colleagues for giving the presentation and responding to the questions raised by the members. I am sure they are very happy with the quality of questions asked by the members. I thank the members for posing those questions.

Dr. Mulvey

I thank the Chairman, as we found this meeting and the points made at it useful and will reflect on it.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.25 p.m. and adjourned at 4.35 p.m. sine die.