JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD debate -
Wednesday, 31 Mar 2010

Slaughter of Horses: Discussion.

Chairman

I welcome Mr. Ted Farrell of BF Meats and Mr. Ted Walsh, horse trainer, who will make a presentation on the slaughter of horses in Ireland. I draw their attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I congratulate Mr. Walsh and his family on the great honour they have brought to this country, including at Cheltenham this year. We are very proud of their achievements.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

So say all of us.

Chairman

It was a great achievement for the young lady in particular.

Mr. Ted Walsh

I thank the Chairman.

Chairman

Ruby has done us proud on many occasions, and now Katie has also brought great honour to the country. I now invite Mr. Farrell to make his presentation.

Mr. Ted Farrell

BF Meats is a small, family owned, export standard abattoir which exports its produce throughout Europe, including beef, lamb, deer and horsemeat. We slaughter up to 100 horses per week, all of which must be fully traceable. There is a requirement that their passports, in the section on medicines, must not be stamped as "not fit for human consumption". Under existing provisions, the passport of any horse to which a medicine such as phenylbutazone is administered and is prohibited from entering the food chain, must be stamped accordingly. In addition, a European Union provision introduced in 2006 and enforceable in Ireland since 2009 stipulates that if a horse is not registered before the age of six months, it will, on subsequently being registered, have its passport stamped to indicate it is not fit for human consumption. There is no medical reason for this and no logical reason I can see.

In my submission some weeks ago I included three papers setting out the detail of the provisions that are causing problems for our business. We employ up to 50 people but that employment will be threatened if horses cannot be slaughtered for no good medical or other reason. In two to three years, we will have a shortage of animals to slaughter and there will be nowhere for these animals to go. The European Union provision allows for a derogation, for which member states must apply, whereby the age limit for registration is extended from six to 12 months. I appeal to the committee to press for an application for this derogation. We estimate that extending the registration limit to 12 months of age would make another 50% of horses eligible for slaughter.

We are obliged to turn away horses every day because their passports indicate they are not fit for human consumption. In some cases this is because of medical treatment they received ten years ago. It does not make sense. I asked staff at the equine centre in Naas, which does our laboratory testing, whether residue could be found in the meat of a horse of ten years of age. I was told that it is not possible, even in the most severe anti-doping test, to find phenylbutazone after 14 days. These provisions are affecting my business. It is important that the many end-of-life horses in the country can have a purpose. I will be pleased to answer any questions members may have.

Chairman

Does Mr. Walsh wish to comment at this stage?

Mr. Ted Walsh

No, I do not. I am here to speak about the welfare of horses.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

I welcome Mr. Farrell, who is a neighbour of mine in south Kilkenny. I compliment him on his work in taking in horses and cattle. We are all aware of the problems arising from the downturn in the horse racing industry, with many horses now needing to be removed from the system. Mr. Farrell has identified two problems he is facing in his business on a day-to-day basis. First is the requirement that horses be registered by the time they are six months old. If horse owners forget to do so, the animals in question are, under European Union guidelines, ineligible for slaughter. That does not make sense to me. Mr. Farrell argues that we need to go to the Minister and Europe to increase the derogation from six to 12 months. That would include a considerable number of horses which cannot be slaughtered by Mr. Farrell's facility at present.

In regard to the injections given to horses for infections, I am a cattle farmer and when I treat an animal I observe a withdrawal period of between three weeks and six months, depending on the size of the dose, before sending the animal for slaughter. I do not see why the practice should differ in the horse trade. It does not make sense to prohibit the slaughter of a horse ten years after it received an injection.

These rules need to change and I look forward to hearing Teagasc's views. This committee needs to pursue the issue with the Minister and whoever else can help us change the rules or get a derogation. I fully support Mr. Farrell in this regard.

Deputy Martin Ferris

I welcome the witnesses and would like to be associated with the Chairman's comments regarding Mr. Walsh's family.

Mr. Ted Walsh

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Martin Ferris

This is a very similar issue to the crisis we experienced when Brazilian beef was allowed to flood Europe with less stringent restrictions to those applying to Irish producers. It appears that American horses can be transported to Canada without passports and put into the human food chain for export to Europe and Asia, irrespective of their age.

I support Deputy Aylward's proposal that we approach the Minister to seek a derogation for 12 months. I would argue the case on grounds of discrimination against Irish producers. We need to get answers from the Minister and the Department on why the criteria are so strict in Ireland compared with non-EU countries.

Deputy Tom Sheahan

If a cow calves today one has 20 days to register the birth. Is it due to negligence on the part of owners that their animals are not being registered within six months, which is a fair timeline? A farmer may have 100 suckler cows but I do not know many men who own 100 brood mares.

Imposing this rule just because an animal was not registered before it was six months old is the worst type of bureaucratic baloney I ever came across. We have an abattoir at home and it is similar to having a vet destroy a bovine animal before it is slaughtered. Has the issue been raised with the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food? I cannot for the life of me understand why this has not been addressed. If it requires an extension of the timeline to 12 months, so be it, but one must ask why a man cannot have his house in order or his stock registered within six months.

Chairman

I apologise to Deputy Christy O'Sullivan because I incorrectly stated that Deputy Aylward rather than he invited Mr. Farrell to attend the meeting.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

That is all right. At least we can address the issue at this meeting. I welcome the witnesses and congratulate the Walsh family on what it has done for horse-racing. The members of that family have been fantastic ambassadors for the horse-racing industry and the country.

Mr. Farrell explained that his family business employs 50 people. These are the businesses we have to support if we are to get this country out of its present economic situation. We have a golden opportunity to support a business which has survived through bad times and has the potential to expand. As someone who comes from a farming background and was interested in horses since I was a small boy, I recognise that we are facing serious problems. While the racing side of the industry may have come to the top, the development of riding horses for hunting or pleasure has not received the same attention.

I can safely say that 75% of the equine stock in this country lack passports or other forms of identification. Anybody who knows anything about a horse could tell when it is just about standing in the field and would be gone with one little push or a gale. This is how the entire industry is portrayed but if that gets out to the wider European scene, we will be in real trouble.

I want the Minister to take a real interest in this issue by regularising the industry once and for all. Animals should be registered in some form within six months of birth but a system should also be put in place so that a once-off grant can be made available to deal with all the horses which are already older than that age.

I have no doubt that many horses are worthless when they are sent to the factory because they are in such a bad state. What level of demand exists for horse meat? Mr. Farrell stated that 100 horses are slaughtered per week in his plant but how many would he envisage if the rules were changed? I have heard stories about horses which were rejected at the factory gate. In some cases, the owner pleaded that the animal be slaughtered and dumped in a skip. If somebody takes a horse to be slaughtered, the last thing he or she wants is to take it back home again. I want to see something being paid for a horse. A once-off slaughter premium for an animal that would not go into the food chain would mean that an owner would at least get €100 for the cost of transport. It would not cost a fortune. At this point we are paying local authorities approximately €2.5 million to administer some form of a pound system, and we are paying charitable organisations another €2 million. If that money could be directed to the slaughter premium for six or 12 months, it would eliminate the problem once and for all. The Department would then be able to enforce proper regulation in the industry, which is the way it will have to go. I will leave my contribution at that but may come back in later.

Chairman

There may not be many questions as people agreed with the delegation's comments. Is there anything the witnesses want to refer to before I bring in the next group of questions?

Mr. Ted Walsh

Deputy Christy O'Sullivan has mentioned almost everything I was going to comment on. I am here to ensure the welfare of horses. As the Deputy said, driving around the country one notices that people cannot afford to feed horses or even cattle because of the harsh winter. There is a great number of people who will do the right thing in taking the animals to be put down at a hunt, which costs €150 or €180. Mr. Farrell will also do it. If there is a stamp on the animal, Mr. Farrell cannot take it. At one stage the animal could be taken for pet food but he cannot do it at all now. It is a good operation but it is a place where nobody wants to go.

Nobody wants to bring a horse to the factory and although I know Mr. Farrell is employing people, the owner of a racehorse would like to think it would die peacefully in the field. One of my horses, Barney Burnette, lived to be 28 last year. Many horses get shook and need to be put down. The great majority of trainers and responsible people will get a horse put down, either through the vet or bringing it to the hunt. There are some who mistreat horses, like other animals, and leave them out in the field because they cannot get them put down or get some money for them. They will not give €150 to the hunt and the horses may be starving.

This idea might be some incentive. It is a shame we have to subsidise cute hoors that will not pay to get horses put down but at the same time, people like Mr. Farrell have good factories. We hate going there but sometimes it is necessary to get horses put down. A horse can be properly put down and dispensed of for the sake of a few hundred euro. For example, if a farmer was to get four horses put down, the farmer could have €800.

Some fellows will not pay the hunt and give the €150. They may have a poor horse standing beside a ditch starving. We are a country that prides itself on its tourism, as the Deputy mentioned, and there is nothing worse than driving around the countryside and seeing mistreated animals, be they cattle, horses or donkeys. It looks bad.

The stamp crucifies the man involved in horse racing. Once a two or three-year-old horse gets a touch of colic or a bit sore, and it gets a shot of bute or Buscopan, the vet has no choice but to stamp it as not fit for human consumption. The horse cannot go anywhere else. Riding horses may be ten or 12 years old but at some stage they may have to be put down, and people may neglect them. As Deputy Christy O'Sullivan has stated, almost all thoroughbred horses are registered. If they are not registered as a foal there is a penalty clause and it is about €300 to register them as a yearling.

Most thoroughbred horses are registered and with half-bred horses, people may want to see how they turn out before registering. The tightness is miserable. Fellows will wait to see if the six-month foal will grow into a nice yearling. If the horse turns out well, it would be registered. The people will pay a fee to the stud and if things do not go well, people may not want to go to any more expense and allow the horse stand out in the field. It is terrible that a horse must suffer because of a bad owner. We are a country that prides itself in our livestock in general and we look after animals well. We look after people as well. We are not as bad as the English but at the same time we should look at the issue.

The members have the power between them and perhaps individually to get this changed. It is terrible to have an old racehorse left in a field because of its owner. I will not mention any names but there are owners who have had great horses in training and ultimately they will have them put down. They will not give €50 a week to keep the horse going for the rest of its life. The best of horses could be left starving.

A trainer might keep six to eight horses but at some stage it will be decided that he or she cannot feed hay and nuts to 20 of them in a field. They would also have to be medicated. The economics are not viable and it is common sense. The members do not need me to tell them as they all know exactly what must be done. I hope the committee acts on this issue. The members are men of the world and of the land and know what must be done. I would love to see action on this.

I am not speaking from the slaughtering perspective. It is a great way out for a fellow with a horse that should be put down. Mr. Farrell has a very well run business; there are vets and horses are checked. The owner will be out of his or her misery when the horse is out of its misery. The owner will come home with an empty box. It does not make any sense that a horse would get a shot of Buscopan as a three year old and cannot be put down at 20 because the minimum residue levels have not been sorted out by the committee. It is madness.

Deputy Andrew Doyle

It is crazy.

Mr. Ted Walsh

I thank the committee for the compliments. I hope the members had a few euro on some of those horses.

Mr. Ted Farrell

I will reply to Deputies Sheahan and Christy O'Sullivan. The costs were outlined by Mr. Walsh. There is a cost in having a passport for a horse. I am not a horse breeder but a person may buy a horse and leave it until eight or ten months before knowing if the horse will turn out well. At that stage the extra money would be paid and the horse would get a passport. Mr. Walsh also touched on the stallion fees, which must be covered once the horse is registered. That is another cost.

The Deputies spoke about minimum residue levels, MRLs, with regard to traceability on passports. DG SANCO is the European health arm of the EU and the members are probably aware of it. It has issued a document, included in my submission, and is dated 17 April 2009. It applies to all horse meat imports into Europe. The essence of the document is the need for traceability for six months before the date of slaughter. Most horses are not slaughtered until they are five, six, eight, ten, 12 or 15 years old. A meat horse is at the end of life; in 95% of cases, a horse is not bred for meat.

DG SANCO looks for six months of traceability. There are countries which allow steroids and the Deputies mentioned problems with other chemicals being introduced to meat in South America. We import meat from such countries with six months of traceability. On one side, those in Europe are looking for 100% traceability but on the other side they allow the rest of the world to export to Europe at a much cheaper rate and with six months of traceability.

If DG SANCO is happy that six months is enough traceability on a horse's passport, does it make sense to stamp a horse that had a medicine with no MRL ten years ago — where the medicine cannot be picked up in meat — as unsuitable for human consumption? That is the essence of my presentation. I thank the committee.

Chairman

I will allow the Deputies contribute again at the end.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

I must go to another meeting.

Chairman

The Deputy should be brief as other members wish to contribute.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

Mr. Farrell has put his finger on the cost of getting a passport for a horse. It must be microchipped by a vet and there must be a book. It costs at least €140 or €150. When the animal is taken to the factory nothing will be given for it because of the state it is in. We must consider the current position. The horses fit for nothing but to be put down are the problem. For them to be put down they must be taken somewhere that can deal with them. If we cannot address the problem we are going nowhere.

Deputy Tom Sheahan

We sought a cull before at this committee.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

I have a brief question before going to another meeting. Mr. Walsh spoke about horses and their passports in his contribution. Are there many horses in Ireland, from a welfare point of view, which could be killed and used as meat? If the horses are not used for meat, where do they go? What is the outlet for horses which are not used for meat?

I have to leave because I have another meeting with a Minister. Will we discuss this issue again at a future meeting?

Chairman

We will. We will move on.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

Can I have an answer to my question?

Chairman

Mr. Farrell can give a brief answer.

Mr. Ted Farrell

We pay for all horses we take. We do not take any horse without paying for it. We take horses at the end of their careers or whatever. They have to be in good condition. We currently pay up to €350 for a horse. It is a depressed time but it is still not a bad amount of money. There is a glut of horses all over Europe. We are turning around some 20 horses a week with passports stamped "Not fit for human consumption", some of which have been stamped for ten or 12 years. We turn around mares which are 15, 20 or 22 years old.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

How many horses are currently slaughtered in the country?

Mr. Ted Farrell

We slaughter up to 100 per week.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

Can Mr. Farrell give me any idea how many are slaughtered in the country as a whole? Is BF Meats the only factory which is currently slaughtering horses?

Mr. Ted Farrell

I understand there is one other facility.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

That is our big problem because there is a sea of horses out there.

Mr. Ted Farrell

We are short of horses.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

There is currently a sea of horses out there.

Mr. Ted Farrell

In November we had enough horses, but normally we are looking for horses.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

They cannot be processed because of their passports.

Mr. Ted Farrell

That is the only problem.

Chairman

We should be able to give the witnesses the figures on how many horses are slaughtered.

Senator Paul Bradford

I apologise for leaving the meeting to attend another meeting, but I heard the presentation and know from where the witnesses are coming. They made very sensible proposals and it is only a question of trying to sort out the administrative difficulties. I do not have to repeat how daft it is that a drug administered to a foal, yearling or two or three year old can militate against a horse being put into the food chain down the line. We all know what the problem is and what the solution needs to be. It is a question of how we get there. The work of this committee should involve sitting down with the appropriate veterinary people, the Minister and his officials in order to tease out a solution. I am sure that can be done.

In Ireland there is a unique relationship between people and horses. We need to address the issue in a planned and structured fashion. Horses must be treated properly but everything, human or horse, reaches the end of its life and one has to have a procedure in place. It is regrettable that so many horses have starved in fields and corners, and yet there would be a demand for them if we could sort out the regulations. I do not have to question the witnesses because I know from where they are coming and they know from where we are coming. It is now a question of sitting down with the relevant officials.

We discussed the European angle, SANCO and European regulations. As with every aspect of business discussed before the committee, we over-regulate, over-extend and over-stretch every European directive. That is why we need a little common sense to be applied and to sit down with the Minister and his officials. I am sure we can do so because the solution is staring us in the face.

Senator John Carty

I welcome the witnesses to the meeting and compliment Mr. Farrell on the very fine presentation he made. I wish other witnesses which come before the committee would make short, precise and concise presentations like that produced by Mr. Farrell.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Hear, hear.

Senator John Carty

It says it all. Like other speakers, I hope, with the permission of the Chairman, we will discuss this issue at a later date, go to the Minister and try to get something done about it. That is all we can guarantee the witnesses. I join the Chairman in complimenting Mr. Walsh and his family. I enjoyed the shot he gave Mr. John McCririck and thank him for the entertainment it provided.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

I will be very brief. I welcome the witnesses to the meeting and thank Mr. Farrell for his detailed presentation, which spelled out in no uncertain fashion the irregularities which appertain in this business. I cannot see why the Commission Regulation (EC) No. 504/2008 stipulates equines not presented for identification within six months of birth are not suitable for slaughter for human consumption and must be classified as not intended for human consumption in section 9, part 2 of the passport. On 17 April 2009, some 12 months later, the SANCO report was issued in Brussels detailing the new conditions which were required for the importation of equines to Europe from third countries.

If other countries require horses for slaughter to be clear of residues for six months before they are killed in order to be fit for human consumption, why does the same law not apply to Ireland? It is as simple as that. It is a duplication of two orders from Europe. The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, when the issue is explained to him and the committee makes its request, in his wisdom will see fit to regularise the unfavourable conditions which appertain in this country.

When a horse is slaughtered in BF Meats, it collects the passport. What does it do with the chip which is inserted in the ear of the animal?

Chairman

Mr. Farrell can answer the question briefly as he may forget it.

Mr. Ted Farrell

The chip must be removed and destroyed while veterinarians are watching. The passport is submitted to the office of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in our plant. It then marks it as disposed of and sends it back to the relevant authority.

Deputy Andrew Doyle

I thank the witnesses. The role of the committee was to have this issue brought to our attention. There are two matters. One is a derogation which is needed and should be sought. The second is the need to address the anomaly in DG SANCO's regulations. That is putting it simply. The logic behind DG SANCO's regulation was that animals which receive medication at any stage in their life are no longer fit for human consumption, when the same medication can be administered to a bovine, and the milk withdrawal period is 14 days and the slaughter period is 28 days or whatever. It seems to make no sense that it has applied such a policy. I would like to know the logic behind the policy.

At the time the regulation was being formalised, somebody from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food must have been involved in its preparation. At another committee meeting we need to decide how we will make the case to have the derogation and the rules of DG SANCO, which conflict with one another, regularised. The six-month traceability rule for any animal coming into the European Union is fair enough. If the equine laboratories carried out tests they would find nothing if nothing was administered. Why are we treating our animals differently?

I agree with other committee members that there is a welfare issue. I am not quite sure what happens to the animals Mr. Farrell turns around. Do they have to go to the hunt? Are they returned to a farm? Are they sent for rendering? What happens to them? I ask Mr. Farrell to answer those questions.

Senator John Paul Phelan

I thank the Chairman for allowing me to contribute as I am not a member of the committee but I am a neighbour of Mr. Farrell and wanted to lend my support to his submission to the committee. He mentioned the European Commission's regulation which is the source of much of his difficulty. It should be pointed out that every regulation and directive agreed at European level is signed off on by a Minister or senior civil servant from Ireland. The Government had a chance to have an input when the regulation was introduced, but the chance was not taken at the time. Mr. Farrell is correct to state we need to get a derogation from it now.

Currently, there is a serious difficulty in Ireland and a glut of horses. Mr. Ted Walsh does very good work in Thomastown. I recall going there with my late father, not for horses, but with lambs. While I do not come from a horse background as such, I wish to raise the issue of animal welfare which Mr. Walsh mentioned. Deputy Christy O'Sullivan proposed the notion of a slaughter premium. I would not use the term "slaughter premium" but an animal welfare premium that could be introduced for the glut that exists at present. Whether we like it or not, there was a proliferation of horses particularly in the past ten or 12 years when the economy was doing well as many people became involved with horses.

Senator Paul Bradford

Senator John Paul Phelan included.

Senator John Paul Phelan

Myself included. When Mr. Walsh said there were horses that should have been put down, Senator Bradford took me to a horse that should have been put down a long time ago, which I am still part of. It might yet go to Farrells. There is a strong case to be made for an welfare premium to be applied in the current climate, where many people got into horses in the past ten or 12 years, myself included, who are now trying to get out of the business. I can assure Senator Bradford I do not mention this from a purely selfish point of view.

Senator Paul Bradford

I am sure——

Senator John Paul Phelan

I would like to hear the witnesses comment on the issue. We need to do something because there is a difficulty, due to the glut of unwanted horses. Unless the Government acts there will be a serious animal welfare issue.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

Much has been said. I thank Mr. Ted Farrell for his presentation and Mr. Ted Walsh for his attendance. The main issue here is the derogation. I suggest the officials from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food be invited to appear before the committee in order that we can make the case to them. I was in the meat business for a number of years and I am aware that horsemeat is not eaten in Ireland but it is a terrible waste. I have a share in a horse and while doing quite well it is still in debt. It is a good sport.

It is a terrible waste that horses taken to Mr. Farrell's facility were not registered until they were eight, nine or ten months old. I am sure those horses are buried in a hole in the ground. I read a report stating that horses in America are exported to Mexico and other countries and that the meat is exported back into Europe with apparently no regulation. It is an open free market for these horses and nobody knows what is in them, no more than the Argentinian beef which was coming into Ireland with few restrictions on it. I suggest the relevant officials from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food be invited to appear before the committee and that we try to make the case as strongly as possible to resolve this issue. I drive through the countryside and there is no doubt there are more horses than there used to be. There is less value put on them. It is obvious they are not being looked after in the way they should. This is an opportunity to resolve what will soon be a serious problem.

Chairman

I call Deputy O'Keeffe, the expert on horses.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

I welcome the delegation, especially Mr. Ted Walsh whose foundation was in Cork. He is now in Kildare. He ancestors came from Rathcormac. He brought the good of the racing industry to Kildare from the great limestone land of north Cork and the great college horses many decades ago.

While I do not wish to bore the meeting, I am taken aback by what is being said. We have the Irish Medicines Board which regulates the use of medicines. Recently it put very strong regulations in place on antiemetics because of the withdrawal period which upset the milk industry. I was surprised because any medicines used have to come through the Irish Medicines Board, whether for horses, cattle, animals or humans. I do not know what drugs can be used or whether they are drugs that are not regulated.

On the farming side we are dealing with bovines which involves milk and the treatment of cattle. There would be a withdrawal period of 72 hours for some of the tubes for mastitis. There is a withdrawal period of 90 days on antiemetics, some of which have the same base as those used in the horse industry. I cannot understand what is going on. We import Brazilian beef from outside the EU and yet we hear so much about hormones. There are huge contradictions in this area as my colleagues have said.

Deputy Paul Bradford drives to Dublin as I do. On either side of the new road there are all types of horses, including half-breds, that are neglected and undernourished. There is a necessity for something to be done. While the derogation is important the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food can do a certain amount to manage the regulation in place to alleviate the difficulty that arises for many in the horse industry. That issue should be addressed. The Department officials who are dealing with this area should be invited to appear before the committee to discuss the problem. That is the way to sort out the problem. If we are to await a derogation from Europe there might be two or three more Dáil sessions before then. Ireland is highly regulated. When there is such a high level of regulation it all starts to break down. The more laws that are put in place the more difficulties there are. We are getting very involved in the horse industry here. We will soon have the horses and dogs here and we will be saddled with another difficulty.

The draught horse problem has been discussed by the committee, as have the licensing and regulation issues and who will have control of the book. The draught horse industry has traditionally been the basis of the horse industry. I support the draught horse people and I hope they get the right to regulate themselves and have their own herd book, which is the way to do business.

I am aware of the difficulties arising for the horse industry and for the entire economy. I am pleased to see my colleague, Senator Bradford, is in the horse industry. I went to the stock market and I do not know which is the worst.

Chairman

Many questions have been posed for the witnesses.

Mr. Ted Walsh

I think the problem with the drugs is the minimal withdrawal period to deal with residue. The companies who produce these drugs have never tested the horses and it will cost a huge amount of money to test them. Given that they have not gone to the expense of testing these horses, they ban the use of the drug on horses. They know how long it takes for it to disappear out of cattle, pigs or sheep but they have not tested horses. The industry is not sufficiently large for the companies to go to the expense of getting their drugs tested in respect of the withdrawal period so they just ban their use on horses. Basically, the chemical companies who manufacture these drugs have not spent the money on testing to determine the time limit for the drugs to disappear out of a horse's system.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

The Irish Medicines Board regulates all drugs in this country.

Mr. Ted Walsh

Yes.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

It is more involved with animals than with humans. It would certainly have looked at those drugs that are being traded into the horse industry. The drugs issue is very highly regulated.

Mr. Ted Walsh

I know it is highly regulated but the Irish Medicines Board has not come up with a time limit in respect of food and when it disappears out of the horse's system. That is the European side of the issue. Pressure should be applied to the companies which produce these drugs to determine the withdrawal period from the horse's system. This is for the welfare of the horse. We are all singing from the same hymn sheet. It is a matter of getting it done and it is a good idea to get Irish people here to do it, without worrying the EU which goes around in circles.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Are the horses vaccinated?

Mr. Ted Walsh

Every horse is vaccinated once a year and gets a primary vaccination 17 to——

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Against what are they vaccinated?

Mr. Ted Walsh

The flu.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Like ourselves.

Mr. Ted Walsh

They are vaccinated against the flu and they are vaccinated again every year. The vaccination is not a problem. Butazolidin is the biggest problem, or Buscopan as we call it. Every horse gets it.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Is that the trade name?

Mr. Ted Walsh

Bute is what we call it. Butazolidin comes in different forms. There is bute in many drugs. If a horse gets a touch of colic or pain one might give it a shot of Buscopan. As soon as that drug is administered the vet has to certify that the horse is not fit for human consumption. That drug may be administered when the horse is three years old yet when it is 17 years old it cannot be taken to the factory because at some stage in its life it got the injection. It does not make any sense and committee is well aware of that.

Deputy Andrew Doyle

Testing horses is fine but we already accept imported horsemeat with six months' traceability. Why not just bring our regulations into line with that? Any animal to which a drug has not been administered in the previous six months could be deemed safe. Samples could be sent to the equine laboratory in Kildare and tested for residue. The trial is a simple one. I suggest that all regulations should be harmonised with those of Director General SANCO.

Mr. Ted Walsh

That would do it. If that is not done it will be driven underground, like most things. If fellows cannot do something they will find ways around the regulations and it will take on a criminal aspect. While I think it is a good idea to have a slaughtering policy, I hope it will not be abused. When any kind of scheme is introduced people jump on the bandwagon and cash in on it. That must be very closely monitored. I have never seen a scheme which was not abused.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

I kept horses with Edward O'Grady and I learned a better lesson than I learned from the stock market.

Mr. Ted Walsh

They are still a better investment than Bank of Ireland shares. One can still talk about them. The pain is not as bad.

Deputy Andrew Doyle

When Mr. Walsh turns an animal away does it go to the hunts or to the knackeries?

Mr. Ted Walsh

A horse owner knows before he brings an animal to Ted Farrell whether it is fit for human consumption or not. A horse that Ted Farrell refuses to take would not be fit for a hunt. Such an owner should have taken the horse to the hunt in the first place. If Ted puts the horse down and throws it in a skip he does so at a loss and would only do so as a favour to the owner. I do not know what such an owner would do. He might turn the horse loose in a wood, because he would not want it.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

What would a hunt do with it?

Mr. Ted Walsh

A hunt would give the meat to the hounds. If the Green Party has its way there will be no hounds. I do not know what we will do in a few years time. We will be in right trouble. There will be no one even to eat the horses.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Where are the export markets?

Mr. Ted Farrell

I export meat to northern Europe, Sweden, Finland, Hungary, France, Belgium, Switzerland and Italy. They are my main markets.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

There used be a big market for horsemeat in South Africa.

Mr. Ted Farrell

There is, but South Africans probably have plenty of horses of their own at present.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Have they?

Mr. Ted Farrell

I do not know. There are also rumours of a market opening in Asia. In parts of China they eat a lot of horsemeat.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Where are the big horse populations?

Mr. Ted Farrell

The United States stopped slaughtering horses because a group in that country decided the horse should not be eaten. It was not nice for the horse. There were four abattoirs which exported to Europe and Japan. There is also a massive market in Japan. The business went underground, as Ted Walsh said. There are two or three abattoirs in Mexico and four or five in Canada. All the slaughtered horses from the US wind up there.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Has the US the biggest horse population in the world?

Mr. Ted Farrell

No. South America has a lot of horses.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Australia?

Mr. Ted Farrell

Yes, Australia. New Zealand exports a lot of horsemeat to Europe. We see horses coming in with passports stating they are not fit for human consumption. A mare might be 15 or 20 years old. It is not unusual to have a 20 year old mare. Her passport might be stamped 1999 or 2002. We would refuse to take such an animal and the owner might say, "What am I going to do with it?" We cannot make a suggestion. It costs us €120 or €140 per tonne to go to the rendering plant but we are not supposed to dispatch a horse that is not fit for human consumption. We cannot let such a horse into our premises. DG SANCO's document of 17 April 2009 states that such a horse in the Ukraine could be slaughtered and sold into the European Union. We could load a horse on a truck and send it to the Ukraine where it could be slaughtered and would be considered fit for human consumption in the EU if it had been clear of drugs for six months. DG SANCO would be very happy with that.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Is there a live trade for horses?

Chairman

Deputy O'Keeffe, you had a chance to ask questions. You have been in and out with questions like a yo-yo. You are not being fair to the witnesses.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

My questions are very fair and Mr. Farrell is answering them.

Chairman

He is. However, we have other meetings to attend. I am already late for a meeting. Do committee members have further questions and do witnesses have anything more to say?

Mr. Ted Farrell

I will be happy to answer further questions but I am satisfied that I have put my case.

Chairman

Deputy O'Keeffe if you have some brief questions please ask them now.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Is there a live trade for horses? Can they be exported live from Ireland?

Mr. Ted Farrell

Horses are leaving Ireland for slaughter.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Are they going to the Ukraine?

Mr. Ted Farrell

I do not know if they go to the Ukraine. I simply make the point that if a horse is sent outside Europe it can be re-imported as meat.

Chairman

Thank you, Mr. Farrell and Mr. Walsh, for attending the joint committee and I compliment you on your presentation. It was short and sweet and to the point. I wish everyone would act in the same manner. You heard the members. Every member is fully supportive of you. I do not own horses but I live very close to stud farms and I see the great work they are doing. I live on a back road and it is lovely to see horses out exercising at six and seven o'clock in the morning. We know the great work done by hunts and by people who have hunters and racehorses. You have looked after horses and will continue to do so. Unfortunately, there are people who do not. As a councillor, I used often receive calls to tell me that dead horses, sheep or cattle had been dumped in gripes and woods. We do not want to see that happen again. During the good times, many people became interested in horses who had not previously been involved with them. Now, they do not want to look after them. That is so sad. The horse is a lovely animal and should be looked after.

Mr. Farrell has told us about the derogation and regulations. These must be changed. The joint committee will discuss this matter at future meetings. We will invite officials and the Minister to discuss the necessary changes to EU regulations with the committee.

I thank you for a very entertaining meeting. You are the grass roots of the horse industry and you are a credit to it. I thank you on behalf of the committee.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.40 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 14 April 2010.