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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD debate -
Wednesday, 13 Oct 2010

Scrutiny of EU Legislative Proposals: Discussion with Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food

I welcome Dr. Cecil Beamish, assistant secretary, and Ms Josephine Kelly, principal officer, from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to discuss COM (2010) 306 which is a proposal for a Council regulation amending Regulation (EU) No. 53/2010 as regards certain fishing opportunities for cod, redfish and bluefin tuna and excluding certain groups of vessels from the cod recovery plan. Dr. Beamish and Ms Kelly have appeared before the committee on numerous occasions.

Before I call on Dr. Beamish to make his opening statement I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009 witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I invite Dr. Beamish to make his opening statement.

Dr. Cecil Beamish

I thank the chairman for the opportunity to address the joint committee on this important fisheries topic. Before I go into the detail of my address, I should say that this proposal was adopted as Council Regulation (EU) No. 712/2010 on 26 July 2010.

There are several aspects to this proposal. It was introduced to amend the 2010 total allowable catches, TAC, and quotas regulation, agreed last December, following the opening by the North Atlantic Fisheries Organisation of the cod fishery in the North Atlantic Fisheries area 3M, which is in the northwest Atlantic off Canada and Greenland, and redfish fishery in NAFO 3LN following a ten year moratorium. This fishery takes place in waters of the northwest Atlantic Ocean and is of no interest to Ireland as none of our vessels fish in this area. Second, the regulation was intended to amend the total allowable catch and quota Regulation 53/2010 to take into account the reduced quota for bluefin tuna on foot of decisions taken at the International Commission for the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas, ICCAT, in February 2010. The ICCAT is a body which regulates the fishery of tuna fisheries throughout the Atlantic and is a regional fisheries management organisation, given that many of the tuna fish are outside the 200 mile zone of the countries that fish in them. Ireland supports the conservation measures adopted to protect bluefin tuna. We do not have any major commercial interest in this fishery but are able to avail of a very small by-catch allocation for this stock.

The proposed change in respect of the transfer of fishing effort and capacity in respect of the Netherlands, from the North Sea to the Irish Sea, does not have direct significant implications for Ireland. The transfer of fishing effort between different fishing regions covered by the cod recovery plan is permitted under the terms of the plan. The rules for such transfers are set down and require that member states transfer effort between different geographical areas provided that the fishing activity transferred involves the use of fishing gear which has been certified as catching less than 1% cod or involves partaking in cod avoidance trips where the catch composition involves less than a 5% catch of cod.

The Dutch have a good sole quota in the Irish Sea and also a small plaice quota in the Irish Sea. The Dutch were not given an allocation of beam trawl fishing effort in the Irish Sea, originally under the cod recovery plan, as they did not have a track record during the relevant reference period set down in the cod recovery plan, 2004-06 or 2005-07. However, because the Dutch have quotas in the Irish Sea, they are permitted to transfer effort, under restricted conditions, to allow them to catch their quotas. The transfer of beam trawl fishing effort permits the Netherlands to operate in this fishery but it must use fishing gear that involves either the use of selective fishing gear or undergo cod avoidance trips whereby it avoids high density cod areas.

The important aspect from an Irish perspective is the proposed change in respect of the cod recovery plan which allows for the exclusion of certain Irish vessels from the fishing effort restrictions — the so-called days at sea restrictions — contained in the cod recovery plan. Specifically in Ireland's case, three vessels were removed from these days at sea restrictions under this regulation because of their decision to use a highly selective sorting grid while targeting Norway lobster, sometimes known as nephrops, but also commonly known as Dublin Bay prawns.

The scientific advice on the state of cod stocks in the Irish Sea and the north west — the area from Donegal Bay north — is that the stocks have collapsed and the advice from the International Council for the Exploration of the Seas, ICES, is that the cod recovery should be closed. In the waters of the north-west coast of Ireland and west of Scotland and in the Irish Sea the cod stocks have declined dramatically over the past two to three decades, from a peak in the 1980s when average landings were in the region of 20,000 tonnes in the north west and west of Scotland, and 11,000 tonnes annual landings in the Irish Sea, to levels in 2009 where landings were 222 tonnes in the north west and west of Scotland area and 468 tonnes in the Irish Sea.

Stock biomass, that is, the size of the overall stock in the area, mirrors the same story as the landings review. The levels reached for stock biomass were almost 40,000 tonnes in the early 1980s in the north west and west of Scotland and 14,000 tonnes in the Irish Sea. These have declined to levels of about 5,000 tonnes in the north west and 1,000 tonnes in the Irish Sea in 2009. The scientific advice available for these cod stocks is that they are at dangerously low levels, they are outside safe biological limits and extensive recovery measures are needed.

It is in the context of these stark figures that serious efforts at cod recovery began in 2004. It was acknowledged that those measures, initiated in 2004, were having little or no impact and a more stringent set of measures was adopted in 2008 and implemented from February 2009 for all EU vessels fishing in these areas. The details of the cod recovery plan are set out in Council Regulation (EC) No. 1342/2008 of 18 December 2008.

Under the new plan, each member state received annual allocations of cod fishing effort for the ICES areas covered by the plan, which include the Irish Sea and the north west of Ireland and west of Scotland. The allocations of fishing effort are based on each member state's historical patterns of fishing with particular types of fishing gear in the relevant areas during the relevant time period. A 25% cut in that effort was introduced in 2009 with a further 25% cut introduced for 2010. These stringent measures had a serious impact on Irish vessels that operate in an area of mixed fishery where avoiding cod is extremely difficult at times.

Article 11 of the cod recovery Regulation 1342/2008 allowed for the exclusion of certain vessels that could demonstrate that the gear type they were using was highly selective and reduced the catches of cod to a minimum. The vessels in question use a grid in their fishing net called a "Swedish grid" that has been shown to be very effective in allowing cod to escape from the net. We have been successful, under this regulation, in getting three vessels in under this measure whose owners have trialled the use of this fishing gear and have committed to its use going forward. The effect is that the vessels are excluded from the effort restrictions in the Irish Sea when fishing for prawns, following a case prepared by the Marine Institute and BIM and made by the Department to the EU Commission. The case was evaluated by the Scientific, Technical and Economic Committee for Fisheries, an EU body for examining such cases, and was recommended by that committee. The exclusion of the vessels from the effort regime, the days at sea regime, for prawns was legalised by the adoption of the regulation which is under discussion here today.

Effectively, these vessels are no longer subject to the effort restrictions imposed on the rest of the fleet. The committee may ask why more vessels do not follow this route. Essentially it appears to be a question of economics. These three vessels target prawns and have made a decision to specialise in that fishery. For most vessels operating in the prawn fishery in the Irish Sea, by-catches of whitefish such as cod and haddock provide a modest but important part of the financial returns for a fishing trip. By using the specialist fishing gear that allows much of the whitefish to escape, the operators become wholly reliant on the income from prawns.

BIM and the Marine Institute are working with the industry to promote the increased use of highly selective fishing gear in the prawn fishery in the Irish Sea. The experience to date is that vessels prepared to use, on a full-time basis, the Swedish grid can be permanently excluded from the fishing effort, the days at sea regime. Vessels may also use other selective fishing gear and Ireland has trialled the use of separator panels in the prawn gear. Separator panels reduce the by-catch of cod to below 5% but do not bring it down to below 1.5%, which is the critical threshold if one wants to be excluded from the fishing effort restrictions. On that basis, vessels committed to using separator panels will not be in a position to make a case to have the vessels permanently excluded from the effort regime. However, the cod recovery plan permits the allocation of additional fishing effort by vessels using this fishing gear. It is hoped that more vessels will be in a position to use highly selective fishing gear in the prawn fishery which will have the benefit of reducing the size of the cod catch and help rebuild the stock and allow the vessels either increased fishing effort or, ideally, exclusion from the effort regime completely.

I thank Dr. Beamish for his presentation. This is a complex area in which I confess I do not have a great deal of expertise. It is clear from various meetings we have had to discuss the whole fisheries area in recent years that there is a consistent challenge between conservation and the economic viability of the fishing fleet. There is also the issue of discharges, where fish have to be dumped at sea when caught, which does nothing for conservation. The general opinion is that the regulation must be amended. I understand that issue will be specifically addressed in the new Common Fisheries Policy. I would welcome any up-to-date news on that issue.

In regard to the specific matter under discussion, Dr. Beamish said that by not using the Swedish grid but rather the separator panels, the cod recovery plan permits the allocation of additional fishing effort by vessels using this fishing gear. How much extra effort does it allow for if the by-catch of cod falls to between 1.5% and 5%? Does it allow for a viable amount of fishing to take place? Has a comparison been carried out on the viability of that option as opposed to the Swedish grid system where vessels were allowed to fish without the restrictions?

Dr. Beamish mentioned whitefish, cod and haddock. This is a layman's question but is it possible to fish in an area where there are exclusively prawns and haddock and no cod?

I welcome the Department officials to the committee. The last time we met was before the meeting in Brussels to discuss the review of the Common Fisheries Policy, which was in late May. The meeting in Brussels took place in June. That exchange of views was very informative and it helped us make what I believe were concrete and sensible proposals to the Commission on that occasion.

Dr. Beamish referred to the three vessels that will be exempted from the regulation? Can he tell the committee the names of the vessels and where they are located? If not, I will understand that, perhaps for sensitive reasons, he cannot do so. In regard to the Swedish grid, what is involved in terms of effort to install it and what is the cost of installation of such a mechanism? As Deputy Doyle said, we always have to balance the economics of what is happening and conservation. In effect, we are talking about rural and coastal economies where there is a very significant dependence on this type of activity. At times of high unemployment and economic difficulties this is one area in which we can drive the economy and attempt to reboot the rural economy.

In regard to the Common Fisheries Policy, how realistic is it to expect an increase in the total allowable catch? In terms of the Hague Preferences, how realistic is to require that they be invoked or to require that we benefit from them?

I thank the Department officials for the presentation. In regard to the Swedish grid that is being used currently and has allowed for three Irish vessels to be exempted, what is the cost factor for that type of equipment compared with that which restricts vessels from using it? In Dr. Beamish's opinion, would more vessels avail of the Swedish grid if they were in a financial position to do so? Are there any grants or supports available to help other vessels from the Irish fishing fleet to avail of the Swedish grid?

Dr. Beamish mentioned that the areas affected are the north-west Atlantic and the Irish Sea. How does this affect other EU vessels? Is there a support mechanism available to them from their respective countries to help them continue as part of their fleet? We all support conservation but it is based on scientific research. Does scientific research include the stakeholders, in other words, does it take cognisance of the views of those involved at the coalface of the industry and those who are fishing or do they have any input? It strikes me that in other sectors within the Irish fishing fleet there was no input whatsoever from the stakeholders — it was based solely on scientific research.

I thank the Department officials for their presentation. The figures presented for cod are very serious for the future of the cod fishery sector. I am very interested in the Swedish grid model. Given that only three vessels use this system on a full-time basis for prawn fishing, how many vessels target cod fishing as a significant part of their fishing effort? What is the possibility of introducing the Swedish grid method to more boats? The figures given for average landings for the 1980s to the present day are staggering by any standard and cannot continue. That is the bottom line. What is the position in regard to this particular species or are we looking at the possibility of having to close this fishery? If those figures are correct and the trend continues, we are in serious trouble. Where can we direct the people who are fishing for cod to make their living? Obviously, they are full-time fishermen. If we are to protect the cod fishery sector to where can we direct it?

Dr. Cecil Beamish

I will try to respond to the various questions raised by members. We are talking about the Irish Sea and an area from Donegal Bay north. The area from Donegal Bay south and around to Wexford is not included in this discussion. Cod fishing and various other kinds of fishing still take place in that area from Wexford around to Donegal Bay. In respect of the figures presented, the scientists would say this is not something that has happened overnight, this has been a long decline. The optimistic note in the story is that the issue is being tackled and that in recent years people have been earnestly trying to find ways of separating out the cod to give it a chance or protect it. It may be that we are now addressing a circumstance that has been building up for a long time so there may be optimism in that respect.

The recovery plan is very demanding in terms of restricting people's activities. It is doing that on the basis that people catch cod, albeit a small percentage of their catch, in a whole variety of fisheries. It is very restrictive on overall economic activity by the industry in those areas where it is applied. The attraction of a system such as the Swedish grid is that it allows the fisherman to continue fishing for what is his mainstay. For example if a fisherman fishes in the prawn fishery in the Irish Sea, that is his mainstay, the bulk of his catch from which he derives his income and he can fish without impacting on cod. One could talk about whiting in the Irish Sea because it is also in a very bad situation and there are discard issues with whiting. The advantage of the Swedish grid is that it allows for a focused activity where one takes the fish on which one depends.

The Swedish grid is a rigid sorting grid, effectively like fingers placed in the net, usually made out of tubular aluminium or stainless steel. It is placed in the aft section of the trawl and is designed to release the bulk of the fish including the cod while allowing the prawns to go into the back of the net. The grid sits at an incline and the large fish cannot get past it and they go up and out through an escape hole. The prawns go back through the grid and they are held in the back part of the net. All the large fish are rejected. It is called the Swedish grid because it has been used extensively in the prawn fisheries off the Swedish coast and it is now mandatory to use it in Swedish coastal waters. We have been trying out this technology in Ireland and it has been tried in other countries. It has proven effective in sorting fish, in particular in sorting cod in the prawn fisheries. For that reason it became recognised in EU legislation as an effective selectivity device, an effective way of choosing what one wanted to catch and allowing the other fish to escape. In the trials, the cod catches were recorded as being less than 0.1 of 1 % consistently. That showed its effectiveness in our area. Fishermen felt there would be difficulties with debris blocking up the grid and therefore the grid would not allow anything to pass thus making the exercise ineffective. Some people would argue that has been overcome and certainly the people who chose to go ahead with the trials and chose to commit themselves to using the Swedish grid completely are now totally reliant on using it when fishing.

The choice people must make is that they will lose that part of their catch and that part of their income which would be made up by cod and some of the large white fish which will escape once they are using the grid. They will lose a bit of income but on the other hand the sorting time on board the vessel will be reduced as there will be less by-catch of different species. It appears that the quality of the prawns taken is better because it is more selective. One is excluded from the stays at sea restriction so that one can fish as one needs to. At one level it was optimistic that some of the vessels were willing to commit and go for the Swedish grid scheme.

The other type of gear, the separator trawl has a panel that separates out the large fish from the prawns. It is a flexible mechanism and it depends on the way the net is rigged. Some of the work done on this did not show it having great effectiveness in practice when one went back over trips where people used separator trawls. It was not always as effective as had been hoped for. The Swedish grid seems to show very effective results and it may well be that other fishermen will go down that road and use that technology. It is really a solution only in the Irish Sea, where we have a large prawn fishery and a selective fishery. In the north west one does not have the same type of prawn fishery and people rely on a greater mix of fish and it is a bit harder in the north west. This is a system that offers great potential in the Irish Sea. Apart from the immediate impacts, if we could engage in a cleanNephrops fishery in the Irish Sea, a side effect on the other fisheries that are at very low levels is the prospect of the stock of cod and perhaps whiting as well being able to recover which would offer a much better future for the fishing industry in the Irish Sea. There is a longer-term as well as a shorter-term picture.

I can give members the names of three vessels, but not the names of the owners , the Mater Dei, the Nosica and the Syracuse. The fishing vessel register is a public document and is on the web so that if anybody wanted to go beyond this and use those names they could get additional information.

What is the cost of installing and purchasing the Swedish grid?

Dr. Cecil Beamish

I do not have exact figures but it is regarded as low and cost has not been a big barrier to anybody who wants to use it. The grid is fairly simple technology and would not be a high cost for people who operate at a significant level in the prawn fishery, which is where they would use it. It is not a cost issue, but the choice of being tied into using that method only and having therefore to give up on cod and other white fish catches.

Does the Swedish grid apply only to prawn fishing?

Dr. Cecil Beamish

It is really only good for prawn fishing because other people who are trying to catch other round white fish, will lose them with the grid. Its potential is in the prawn fishery.

It has a limited use.

Dr. Cecil Beamish

The prawn fishery is the fishery in the Irish Sea at this stage.

My point is that it is limited in its capacity to have an effect on the cod.

Dr. Cecil Beamish

In so far as we can change anything in the Irish Sea, we can only change the fishing patterns. The main fishing activity that is impacting on cod in the Irish Sea is the prawn fishery and that is the underlying economic basis of the industry in the Irish Sea. If people can move towards the Swedish grid and exclude the cod from their catch, that would have a significant impact in terms of recovering the round white fish in the Irish Sea. The potential of the Swedish grid is very strong in the Irish Sea and the Irish Sea used to be a very strong fishing area.

How many Irish vessels are fishing for prawns in the Irish Sea?

Dr. Cecil Beamish

There were 47 vessels so far this year in the Irish Sea that were covered by the days at sea restrictions in the prawn fishery.

Yet only three vessels are using the Swedish grid?

Dr. Cecil Beamish

Only three vessels have chosen to use that system.

Are the restrictions applicable to the other 44 vessels?

Dr. Cecil Beamish

The days at sea restrictions are applicable to the others.

Are relations good with the fishermen? Was there a cost comparative study done between the cost of being restricted and being able to sell some cod as opposed to having unrestricted access only to prawns?

Dr. Cecil Beamish

Deputy Killeen the then Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food established a working group when this cod recovery programme was established at the start of 2009. That working group involves the industry representatives, the Department and the Agencies. They have been working to see how to allocate the available days, the available fishing effort and how it is being taken up. There have been seven or eight different plans in the intervening period and the available days are usually allocated on a three month period. That is done directly with the industry. There are very long discussions and intensive negotiations before decisions are arrived at. The trials and the work being carried out by BIM on the Swedish grid have all been part of the discussions. Ms Kelly will elaborate as she chairs that group.

Ms Josephine Kelly

The group meets on a regular basis and is composed of the industry and the agencies. Scientists are invited to give advice to the group regarding the best way to manage the fishery. One of the important aims of the group is to investigate how we can promote the greater use of these types of technologies. The Swedish grid, the incline separator panel, has potential. It significantly reduces the by-catch of cod and it has greater potential, even though in its present form it will not allow the elimination of vessels from effort. It will be effective and in some cases it may be more acceptable for fishermen because it allows a greater quantity of white fish to be retained on board and to be landed. It is a compromise between the Swedish grid, which results in a nearly-clean nephrops fishery and the regular gear which would have significant by-catches. This is a half-way house. For that reason, it may be attractive for fishermen in a situation where they feel it is not economically viable for them to concentrate solely on the nephrops. The working group involves the industry in detailed discussions. We look at these kind of issues and the industry is given the advice of the scientists and BIM. It is a work in progress and there are no easy answers. We listen to the experience of the industry, consider what it thinks is a working proposal and what needs to be given a trial. The Marine Institute and BIM hold meetings around the coast to talk to fishermen about it and to listen to their views on what they think of a new approach or other such matters.

I am a little confused at this stage and perhaps the delegation can enlighten me. There are 47 vessels in the fishing fleet of which 44 are restricted by days at sea.

Ms Josephine Kelly

I cannot remember if that 47 includes these three vessels. It may be 50 vessels.

I am not too concerned about those numbers. The three vessels using the Swedish grid are not restricted by days at sea and this effectively allows them a far greater opportunity to fish on a regular seasonal basis. The down side, I take it, is the cost, as catches will probably be reduced by the grid, albeit, I imagine, one would have a better quality prawn catch as a result. The running costs such as the cost of diesel are factors as one is unrestricted in the days one can fish. Only three boats are involved thus far. What is the difference in the cost of the Swedish grid gear, and the gear currently being used?

Ms Josephine Kelly

The cost of the gear is minimal; we are talking about a panel like a gate. The cost of manufacturing the grid and putting it into the fishing gear is not significant. That is not a deciding factor in the decision-making.

Dr. Cecil Beamish

I am conscious that I did not answer many of the questions asked by Deputies and Senators.

Does Deputy Ferris wish Ms Kelly to deal with his question?

I am working my way through it because we are dealing with three different types of gear. Why is it the case that approximately 43 vessels have not taken up the Swedish grid which would allow them to fish without restrictions from days at sea? It seems it is not a cost factor. Is there a psychological reason?

Dr. Cecil Beamish

In the past there were times when there is a significant amount of cod, haddock and perhaps whiting to a lesser extent on the same grounds as the prawn grounds. Therefore, if a fisherman fished with a high headline, he could take in a significant by-catch of those species and this was a significant part of income at a certain time of the year. If a fisherman commits to going with the Swedish grid, he has to say goodbye to all that and he focuses on prawns. It is a balance.

There has not been a take-up because there are financial benefits with the white fish.

Dr. Cecil Beamish

It is a financial decision that has to be made. Over quite a number of years the position was that this could not be taken up. To an extent, the three people who committed to the scheme have taken a new step which was not arrived at quickly. It may be we are in the middle of a transition period and some others may follow but we do not know that.

It all depends on whether the Swedish grid is seen to be financially beneficial in the catch and then people will go for it. In the meantime, people will not go with it.

Dr. Cecil Beamish

Yes, it is a commercial choice. I will answer the other questions I did not answer earlier. Deputy Doyle asked if one could fish in an area with prawns and haddock and avoid the cod. I am not a fisherman so I cannot really answer that question. However, the experience has been that cod and haddock are difficult to separate and to some extent, cod tend to be prevalent in the areas where prawns are available so there will be some by-catch of cod in the prawn areas. Given that the target is prawns, there will be a by-catch of cod. It is difficult to avoid them without something that takes them out of the gear.

The Deputy also asked about discards, which is a big issue facing all those interested in fisheries around the world. It is a current hot topic. Everybody is unhappy with discards and this is completely understandable. It is a common position but the problem is what to do about it. It is a question of deciding what discards are as they can be due to a variety of reasons such as discards of non-commercial species, discards of commercial species which are below a minimum size and discards where species are above the minimum size but there is no quota availability or some other entitlement to land them.

Various experiments are being carried out around the European Union as to how this problem can be resolved. Ireland has made suggestions on how this issue can be dealt with. Some people advise the banning of all discards. However, fishermen must be in agreement with whatever solution is arrived at for discards because they are the people who are grading out at sea and if it does not make sense to them, there is little point in writing down that discards shall be banned. If they are banned, then everything must be brought to shore and many would argue this is the solution. If the catch is brought to shore under the current system, there are a variety of effects but two significant effects, one being that the available quota for the fisherman and for the country would be used up more quickly and a significant part of that quota would be used up on low value fish of the species covered by the quota which would not currently be brought home and landed. Therefore, the fisheries would be closed much sooner. The fisherman would take a significant reduction in his fishing opportunities and his catch if everything had to be landed.

The second issue is whether one would create markets for small fish. If a market for small fish is thus created, people tend to fish more heavily on the small fish than they would if there was no market for them or if they were not allowed to land them. It is a question of whether this would be positive from the point of view of conservation. In the past people were allowed, or the market encouraged, fishing of small fish, which was negative from a conservation point of view. There are complications in many of the solutions. It is a very good start if one can avoid catching that which one does not want to catch in the first place. However, it has the impact to which Deputy Ferris referred. Much is going on and it is a high-profile issue in the Common Fisheries Policy review. The Commission has received the views of member states on this and has had meetings and so forth on it. There is a further seminar in November, and in late spring 2011 the Commission is expected to bring forward its proposals. The debate will start at that point. Discard and how to address it is a major issue in the debate.

Senator McCarthy asked if it was realistic to expect we could increase catch. We can consider this in a number of ways. It is not realistic to expect to increase catches globally on stocks beyond conservation levels. Catches can be increased if we come up with fishing and management methods that grow the stock back to the maximum sustainable yield. We could then be fishing at a higher level but that involves management and recovering stocks. Senator McCarthy also asked if it was realistic to expect the invocation of the Hague Preferences. Ireland has always invoked the Hague Preferences where it is relevant and has fought for it at Council level. It is a matter for the Council to honour the invocation. These matters will arise again in December.

Dr. Beamish referred to a seminar in November on the Common Fisheries Policy.

Dr. Cecil Beamish

The Belgian Presidency and the Commissioner will hold a seminar in Belgium on 16 November. It is regarded as having a major input into what the Commission will do.

Deputy Ferris asked whether the science involves the stakeholders. The then Minister of State, Deputy Tony Killeen, established a new science industry partnership programme, whereby the scientists and industry meet on a regular basis for the purpose of discussing input and each other's views on how the science is formulated and what it is saying. That industry science partnership, run though the Marine Institute, is ongoing. Deputy O'Sullivan asked whether, given the scientific advice and the figures available to us on cod stocks, we should close the cod fishery completely. Successive Ministers have been against a complete closure because the only way we could guarantee catching no cod would be to stop all fishing. Socio-economically, that is not an attractive choice. The choice has been to come up with management measures, such as the Swedish grid to which we referred, closed areas and other measures that protect cod and reduce the impact of other fishing activity on cod. The preferred route is to give greater protection to cod either through letting them out of the fishing gear, or implementing closed areas when they are spawning in areas where they are concentrated, such as is the case in the Celtic Sea. The preferred approach is a more targeted set of measures to protect cod.

How many of the Irish fleet are fishing redfish? People are targeting redfish. What returns are we making with this? How much per tonne can it be sold for?

Dr. Cecil Beamish

We need to be careful of what we are talking about. In EU and Atlantic fishery terms, redfish are a species of fish——

From Canada and Greenland.

Dr. Cecil Beamish

Yes, and we have no quota and have not been fishing redfish.

There is no quota involved in redfish.

Dr. Cecil Beamish

We had a minimal quota at one stage but it was not fished because it was not viable. We did not have a record of fishing in those areas of Greenland and Canada.

Is a quota needed for fishing redfish?

Dr. Cecil Beamish

Deputy O'Sullivan may be talking about boarfish.

No, I refer to redfish.

Dr. Cecil Beamish

There are different management areas for different redfish species. There are quotas for any of the areas in which there are redfish. There is a quota in an area south of Iceland, the Irminger Sea, where German vessels fished for years but we never fish there.

Do we know how many Irish vessels are fishing for redfish at any given time?

Dr. Cecil Beamish

Nobody is fishing for redfish.

Nobody knows what is happening in that sector.

Dr. Cecil Beamish

No, there are quotas and we do not have a quota so there can be no one fishing for redfish.

Is Dr. Beamish saying that no one is fishing for redfish at the moment?

Dr. Cecil Beamish

There are no redfish in our waters, except for boarfish, which are orange coloured but sometimes people use the term "redfish" loosely.

I know where Dr. Beamish is coming from. He is not concerned about fishing for redfish because it is not taking place in Irish waters.

Dr. Cecil Beamish

Whether I am concerned is not the point. The redfish fisheries, which tend to be further north than Ireland, off Iceland, Greenland and Canada, have been covered by quotas for many years and Ireland does not have a quota.

It is referred to in the document we received this morning, which mentions opportunities for cod, redfish and bluefin tuna. The fact that it is referred to in these documents is the point.

Dr. Cecil Beamish

In fisheries management language, fishing opportunities are quotas. They are the opportunities one has. We have not had a quota in redfish and we did not have a record of fishing redfish when it was divided up many years ago. It was allocated on the basis of record, as are most fishing allocations.

Regarding the Irish fleet, do we have an ageing fleet or are new people getting involved in the business? Is this one of the reasons some of the 47 vessels are not getting involved in new technology? These people may be seeing out the rest of their days. Are cod stocks or whitefish stocks falling worldwide as dramatically as they are in the Donegal area or in the Irish Sea?

Dr. Cecil Beamish

Sometimes a reference to an ageing fleet refers to the age of the vessels as against the age of the skippers or owners.

I am talking about both. Are new people getting involved in the industry?

Dr. Cecil Beamish

There is always a turnover in the fishing industry. There is new interest in the past two years and people are returning to the fishing industry at all levels. There are significant start-up costs in this industry, such as buying tonnage and a vessel. People either work their way up through the industry from small to large or there is a generational transfer where the parents pass on a large vessel to the next generation. In that way there is new blood but there is a generational transfer. In other cases, younger people work their way up through the industry.

In the prawn fleet, it is not correct to say people are not taking on new technology because they are ageing. The prawn fleet is an active and vibrant fishing fleet in the Irish Sea. The technology does not raise issues of cost. It is a simple tubular steel gate and it does not arise as a cost issue. The cost is the choice of the impact on one's catch income. One loses the round whitefish from the catch. That has an impact on costs. The benefit is that one can fish freely for prawns, one gets a better quality of prawn and there is less sorting and discarding of non-commercial species on the deck. It is a choice people make. For the first time we have seen some people in the prawn industry make that choice. It was not being made a few years ago.

The second question related to cod stocks. There are different cod stocks in different areas. There is a variety of factors. Management is trying to manage the impact of human activity on the cod stocks but there are other factors that also affect stocks, as with any fish stock. Southern cod stocks around this country, the southern North Sea and the Channel have tended to be in very poor shape in recent years. Cod stocks to the north of Norway and north of Russia have tended to do well. Canadian and Icelandic cod stocks have done reasonably well also. There may be oceanographic or climate reasons for those changes which occur over time. Stocks go up and down. For example, Baltic cod is enjoying a recovery at the moment. That is due to oceanographic change and food availability in the Baltic Sea.

The overall principle is that if cod is weak in an area one tries to avoid damaging it seriously so that it can recover when stock improves or the ocean conditions are more favourable. If a stock is completely wiped out in an area it will not recover when those conditions improve. It is necessary to keep enough of a brood stock in the area to allow recovery to take place. It is not a homogenous picture. The stocks off north Norway and Russia have been doing very well in recent years.

I do not know whether the officials are wrong or the Minister is wrong because it is not very long ago since he had an article on his website telling us the cod were jumping into boats on his side of the country. The two parties are not in agreement on the position.

We are talking about 47 Irish boats and the effect the proposed regulation will have on them and the cod stocks. What about the Spanish boats? What effect are they having on our cod stocks? Will the same regulations apply to all states or will this regulation be given the same treatment as the majority of regulation that comes from Europe in that we will add on our own 20% to it? Will the Spanish boats be under the same whip, for the want of a better word?

Has the Department quantified how many days at sea we are talking about? I note the reference in the presentation to boats being able to avail of a very small by-catch allocation. Is that just for bluefin tuna or is it for other species? That has been a sore issue for a long time.

I refer to the Department's statement: "Specifically three vessels are removed from the effort restriction because of their decision to use a highly selective sorting grid while targeting Norway lobster, commonly know as Dublin Bay prawns." How are the prawn stocks? I know people who have been seeking licences or permission to catch Dublin Bay prawns and they have not been successful due to reasons of stocks. Reference is made to "specifically three vessels". How many Irish vessels in total will be put out of action by this measure? I expect it is more than three vessels even though the reference is to only three.

Dr. Cecil Beamish

The Deputy's initial comments were about Celtic Sea cod which is not subject to restrictions. It is a different cod stock. It is subject to the restrictions applicable in the Irish Sea and the west of Scotland. The scientific reference was to the west of Scotland cod stocks and the Irish Sea stocks, not the Celtic Sea stocks.

The second point related to the effect Spanish boats are having on cod stocks, whether the regulations will apply to them equally and if Spain will be subject to the same rules. Spain has no cod quota. It does not fish in the Irish Sea or in the area where cod are prevalent, area 6A to the west of Scotland.

Are Spanish boats not fishing there?

Dr. Cecil Beamish

They are not fishing in the Irish Sea at all.

They are not fishing in boxes 6 and 7.

Dr. Cecil Beamish

They are not fishing in the areas in which cod are prevalent. They are fishing outside what is known as the French Line, which is the deep water line. There are no Spanish fishing vessels operating in the Irish Sea. Cod protection is in operation in the Irish Sea. This is not about Spanish fishing vessels in that they are not significant players in the fisheries concerned in terms of the demise, recovery or otherwise of the cod stocks to which we refer.

Cod can move around.

Dr. Cecil Beamish

Absolutely, all fish move around. In so far as——

That is my point.

Dr. Cecil Beamish

I am sorry. I do not follow. Spanish vessels are not in the Irish Sea. They do not take from the cod stocks in the Irish Sea. The stocks are defined on the basis of where they occur and these ones occur in the Irish Sea. The other ones occur in 6A.

The stocks cannot go out of the Irish Sea.

Dr. Cecil Beamish

They absolutely cannot. The fish will always make fools of all of us.

On the question of by-catch and bluefin tuna, there is a very small by-catch but we do not have any targeted fishery of bluefin tuna and never have had.

Will a by-catch allocation be introduced for other species? I refer to an acceptable amount of by-catch rather than forcing fishermen to go up the steps of a court house.

Dr. Cecil Beamish

The issue to which the Deputy refers is a national one not a European Union one. Ireland, like other member states, has a certain amount of quotas under the system for different stocks. How those quotas are managed internally, how much is set aside for directed fishery or by-catch is a national issue. That is worked out directly with the industry. In the case of white fish it is done on an almost monthly basis. In the case of pelagic fish it is done over a longer period. It is always worked out with a heavy industry input as to how much people want to set aside for directed fishery and by-catch. In most cases the call is made that X amount of the bulk will be put into a directed fishery and there will be restrictions on by-catch. That is where the issue of by-catch to which Deputy Sheahan refers arises. If the choice is made to put much more available to everyone for by-catch then people will have bigger by-catch provisions but that is a choice made with industry on a monthly basis across all the species.

In terms of three vessels being removed and how many will be put out of action, the figure we quote of 47 is purely the prawn fleet in the Irish Sea that is operating under the days-at-sea restriction. Such restrictions have been in place for several years. The regulation before the committee today is one that allows three of the vessels in that fleet that have chosen to go down a certain route to get out from under the days-at-sea restrictions. That is all the regulation is doing. The rest has been there for a few years. It is just a case of lifting the restriction for three vessels. The total of vessels operating in the north west across different fisheries is not 47, we were talking specifically about the prawn fleet so far this year in the Irish Sea.

The prawn stocks vary. In general they have not been in the same perilous state as some whitefish species. They have been reasonably robust, but there has been an issue with prawn stocks in the Porcupine Bank area for the last couple of years. Working with our industry, proposals were introduced that were followed up in Europe by the Minister at Council level. These involved the closure at certain times of the year of parts of the Porcupine Bank fishery. That was agreed with the industry as the best way to deal with the problem that existed in the Porcupine Bank prawn stock.

There are six or seven major prawn stocks around the east, south and west coasts of Ireland. They are all slightly different and there are debates going on about the management of prawn stocks. We have been in close consultation with the fishing industry on that issue. The Minister met all the fishing industry representatives and discussed the proposals coming down the line about prawn management.

Where is this regulation now?

Dr. Cecil Beamish

The regulation was adopted on 26 July.

I thank Dr. Beamish and Ms Kelly for bringing the committee up to date on this proposal. It was an informative meeting. The committee will report back on today's proceedings to the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.55 p.m until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 14 October 2010.
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