Skip to main content
Normal View

Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine debate -
Thursday, 20 Feb 2014

Coastal Farm Holdings: Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine

The purpose of the meeting is to discuss the recent storm damage to coastal farm holdings and the implications for area aid applications under the single farm payment and other schemes. I welcome Dr. Kevin Smyth, assistant secretary; Mr. Paud Evans, principal officer; and Mr. Liam Fahey, senior inspector, from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and thank them for coming to discuss these issues.

Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or an entity, either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Dr. Smyth to make his opening statement.

Dr. Kevin Smyth

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to discuss two important issues with the joint committee. The presentation I would like to make to it is about ten minutes in length, following which my colleagues and I will be happy to take questions.

I acknowledge that the recent stormy weather has had a significant bearing on farming and fishing communities and on others living and working in the areas badly impacted on. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine has visited a number of these areas to see the effects the severe weather has had on farmers. He has said he fully recognises the difficulties and the hardship being experienced as a result of land being extremely wet and slurry tanks being full or nearly full. He has reassured farmers that both he and the Department will do everything possible to assist them.

With regard to inspections, in particular, an issue in which I know the committee is interested, the Department will take a common-sense approach and farmers need not be worried or concerned on this front.

For example, where there has been severe storm damage, including damage to fences and grazing or large deposits of stones or debris, farmers will not be penalised under direct payment schemes. I will say more about this later.

The Department and the Minister have advised farmers who find themselves unable to feed their animals that help can be provided. He reminded farmers that the animal welfare helpline continues to operate for those with animal welfare concerns. Teagasc is already engaging with those clients who have been affected by bad weather. In addition, the Minister has asked Teagasc to make practical advice available to all farmers on steps that can be taken to deal with their particular problems and I understand it continues to do so. While the majority of livestock are still housed and the supply of fodder is not an issue, there may be cases in which farmers are faced with slurry tanks that are almost full and ground conditions that are not suitable for spreading. The Minister, Deputy Coveney, has said there are ways of addressing this and he advised farmers to seek advice from Teagasc.

To say that rainfall everywhere for January was above average would be a massive understatement. Percentage long-term average, LTA, values ranged from 122% at Finner in County Donegal to 183% at Oakpark in County Carlow, its wettest January since 2007, with almost double its average rainfall. Belmullet reported its wettest January since 1993 while Dublin Airport and Mullingar reported 162% and 159% of LTA respectively, with both having their wettest January since 1995. Knock Airport had its wettest January on record while Johnstown Castle had its wettest January in 16 years, with 140% of LTA. This weather is unprecedented and I remind the committee that this does not include the February rainfall figures.

As a result of this rainfall most lowland areas have experienced some flooding. However, with the majority of cattle housed at present, difficulties are localised to areas adjacent to rivers where flooding is above that normally experienced. There have been individual reports of storm damage to coastal lands and loss of fodder on a small number of farms. There are no indications of pressure on fodder at the moment. The quality of fodder conserved is generally excellent on farms and, subject to a normal spring turnout, the overall quantity should be sufficient.

A small area of winter cereals is flooded but has not yet suffered any ill effects. Crops were well established last autumn and would have to be flooded for nearly two weeks before major harm could be caused. No spring planting has taken place. The period for cutting hedges ends at the end of February. The current poor weather is preventing access to carry out this work. However, the dry autumn meant that the work was well progressed before the latest period of adverse weather conditions.

With regard to the major issue concerning this committee - that is, the effects of the weather on farming and possible penalties - I reiterate my central point. The Department's staff have been reminded of the need to adopt a common-sense approach and to be mindful of the recent weather. By way of example, a similar approach was taken when dealing with the proliferation of rushes due to the wet summer of 2012. In addition, as I have stated, storm damage such as loss of fences and boundaries, large deposits of stone and damage to grazing will be dealt with as force majeure cases and farmers will not lose their entitlement to payment or be penalised in such cases under the various direct payment schemes.

In regard to the second issue of the LPIS review, the committee will be fully aware of the background to this problem. The European Commission has an obligation to ensure that member states manage and use the EU funding granted to them in accordance with the very restrictive provisions governing the schemes and general financial provisions. Under the Common Agricultural Policy this is done by way of a clearance of accounts procedure. This is a formal process and both the Commission and the member states are obliged to adhere to the requirements laid down in the legislation. In the case of Ireland, the clearance procedure is currently covering five financial years, 2008 to 2012. In this regard I can assure the committee that every effort is being made to ensure that Ireland's case and the position of Irish farmers are strenuously argued during the process. It is vital that the payment to farmers of more than €1.5 billion of EU money every year continues, as these payments are vital both to farming and to the rural economy.

During the years from 2002 to 2012, the Commission imposed financial corrections amounting to almost €6 billion - that is, €6,000 million - on member states. To date, Ireland's share has amounted to about €26 million, or less than half of 1% of the total amount corrected. Ireland has one of the lowest rates among member states; I believe we are number 21 out of 27 member states. However, under the EU regulations, the Commission has the right to impose a flat-rate correction of 2%, 5%, 10%, or greater, depending on its assessment of the risk to the EU fund involved. A mere 2% correction to the money spent between 2008 and 2012 would mean a loss of €160 million in funding to Ireland, with further losses in prospect on an ongoing basis. Member states such as France, the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Austria and the United Kingdom have received major financial disallowances amounting to hundreds of millions of euro for weaknesses identified in their land parcel identification systems.

The LPIS review process initiated by the Department consists of a review of all eligible land parcels in the LPIS database which were declared by farmers under the 2013 single payment scheme, the disadvantaged areas scheme and other direct payment schemes. In total, the review covered more than 132,000 applicants and more than 900,000 land parcels declared by them as eligible for payment under one or more of the above-mentioned schemes. That review is almost complete and some details have been given to the Commission. The Department is currently examining the applications for reviews and appeals submitted by farmers. If the outcome of a review is successful the applicant is informed and the relevant adjustment made in the payments. If it is unsuccessful, the applicant is notified of his or her right to submit an appeal to the independent LPIS appeals committee, chaired by Mr. Pádraig Gibbons. Where there is doubt in relation to the area deemed ineligible, the Department arranges for the area to be clarified by ground verification - that is, a visit to the holding. More than 500 of these visits have taken place.

I would like to clarify the impression that this is something new. The undertaking of LPIS reviews is not a new development in Ireland. In particular, the Department carried out a significant review in 2007 and 2008 when ortho-imagery relating to 2004 to 2006 was reviewed. Ineligible features were identified and the appropriate reductions and penalties were applied in accordance with the governing EU regulations. The only significant difference with the 2013 LPIS review is that developments in technology achieved by the Department make it possible to carry out a review of all eligible parcels in the LPIS database.

In addition, while the Department was able to source new imagery in 2012, this does not mean the identification of ineligible features and areas arose because of the quality and resolution of the new imagery. The new imagery was used simply to identify ineligible features in areas. All land parcels which were identified as having these ineligible areas were redigitised to make appropriate exclusions.

What is the responsibility of the applicant? The applicant must be fully aware of all features such as houses, roads, rivers, forests, areas of scrub and ineligible bogs when submitting the annual application. The committee will also be aware that each year the Department forwards maps, a copy of the terms and conditions, and a covering explanatory letter to all applicants. In all of the documentation forwarded, it is made clear to farmers that they should not claim for any ineligible land or in respect of features such as houses, buildings, farmyards, lakes, bogs, or, most importantly, scrub. Given the size of farms in Ireland, I believe all applicants who are farming the lands they declare are fully aware of the features on their lands.

The retrospection process involved confirmation that ineligible features identified in 2013 existed in previous years. This was done by examining previous ortho-images for earlier years. If the existence of the feature cannot be confirmed then no retrospection will apply. To date, approximately 2,500 farmers have been informed of the application of deductions for the period 2009 to 2012. The amount involved was €1 million, or an average of €100 per annum on an average payment of €11,000.

The applicants involved have the right to appeal under the robust review and appeals mechanism that the Minister has introduced. The process is ongoing and the European Commission has been informed that more verification checks on the work undertaken to date will take place next month.

Let me reassure the committee on one important point – no farmer will be penalised in his or her direct payments for temporary difficulties that he or she has experienced during the current spell of unprecedented stormy weather. Through a combination of a common-sense approach by inspectors, force majeure provisions for temporary losses and a robust review and appeals system, no farmer will lose in his or her payments or be penalised where eligible land is temporarily rendered ineligible.

I understand we are dealing with both issues. I thank the delegates for attending and the clarification provided. However, what I am experiencing on the ground is slightly different from what has been presented, to which I will come shortly.

There are two major issues, the first of which relates to flooding. Huge areas of land are flooded and, in many cases, this flooding could continue for a considerable time. Will it be accepted that it is a case of force majeure in these areas that continue to be flooded for a period of months in regard to the seven month rule under the disadvantaged area scheme? As each month passes, the position becomes more and more difficult and some of these areas could be flooded for a considerable time.

I know slurry spreading is primarily an issue for the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, but no doubt it tic-tacs with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine which always cites Teagasc as the source for what we call "calendar farming". I asked a parliamentary question about slurry spreading dates and in the response I was informed slurry could be spread at that moment. However, in many places farmers would be spreading it in water causing serious pollution. Up until mid-December, we had had a particularly dry season, but farmers were not allowed to empty their tanks and spread slurry. Many farmers have slurry tanks filled to capacity. Now that there is much better forecasting, is consideration being given to moving away from rote calendar farming which in our climate does not have major relevance in terms of when land will be dry or wet? Are we going to move to a system under which slurry can be spread when conditions are suitable, when land is at its driest, particularly in view of the fact that most farmers only have limited storage capacity and that if there is a long wet spell, their tanks will be filled to overflowing? While they might be legally entitled to spread slurry at such a time, it would be at great risk of causing pollution.

I note what was said about inspections and, presumably, what was said was related to REPS and AEOS inspections and the 2013 single farm payment. However, I understand the relevant period has passed and that once a farmer had the land in good agricultural condition for the summer, the inspection does not matter because if the land has disappeared under water in the meantime, it could make no difference.

It is stated in the presentation that there have been individual reports of storm damage to coastal lands and loss of fodder on a small number of farms. Perhaps my constituency is different, but the majority of farmers in my constituency have land in coastal areas. The bigger farmers are in the core of Connemara, but the majority are along the coast because that is where the green strips of land are. The majority of the population in Connemara are in these areas. From the time one leaves Bearna through Spiddal, Inverin, An Cheathrú Rua, Cill Chiaráin, Carna, Roundstone, Ballyconneeley, Errislannan, Clifden and Renvyle, as well as the island, areas that face west or south west suffered damage. There is a continuous strip of damage all along the coast and thousands of farmers are affected. Therefore, it is wrong to say only some individual farmers are affected. I have files and could show the officials the information I have available.

There has been huge damage on the islands, some of which has been seen on television, but what has been seen on television is the damage done to public property, not to farmers' lands. Along the coast, in places never affected previously, walls in existence for 100 or 200 years or more - stone walls in many cases, not post and wire fences - have been knocked down. Worse still, the sea came in and flotsam and jetsam of every kind were thrown on the land, including many stones from dúirling or pebble beaches. The land has been destroyed and stripped back in some places as one would roll back a carpet. The rebuilding of these walls will require a major effort which will certainly not be made by 15 May. That is the real issue in regard to what will happen next. This means that farms will not be in compliance with the terms of either the DAS or the single farm payment scheme which requires a farm to be fenced.

There is another issue. As land has been lost to the sea or destroyed by it and it is impossible to provide forage by the end of the year, will maps have to be adjusted and, as a consequence, will people wind up with more entitlements than land? Is it possible to stack these entitlements for them? In other words, will the Department rejig their entitlements based on the reduced amount of land which was beyond anybody's control? Alternatively, is it suggesting they will have to get more land, even though there is no more available, or that they will have to sell their entitlements? This would be an expensive exercise because everyone must have his or her land measured.

I have made a suggestion to the Minister for Social Protection and I am making the same suggestion today because no doubt the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine tic-tacs with that Department. It will be beyond the ability of many of these farmers to rebuild these walls on their own because they were built in the old days when there was plenty of help available. I suggest that in view of the large number of farmers in receipt of farm assist payments, the rural social scheme be expanded for a 12-month period to enable people participating in that scheme to be employed to replace all of the coastal walls lost, not with post and rail fencing which would be a simple and cost effective way for a farmer to replace them but with the stone walls that are a characteristic feature on the west coast. However, to do this the creation of new foundations would be required and it would not be as simple a job as it sounds. These walls were built on green land which is no longer there. In this situation there would be a double win. We would provide employment for farmers who need it and preserve the heritage value of the walls. The walls in each area have a unique style, which it is important to preserve.

We need to get clarity on the application for the single farm payment and the disadvantaged areas payment.

I have had many calls from farmers around the Maugherow and Mullaghmore areas in Sligo. Fences have been damaged with much debris washed up on the land. The main problem is land that was ripped away and will not be able to be replaced by May. I welcome the news that farmers affected will not be penalised between now and May. However, will they be penalised if they have not removed debris from land or have lands that were washed away by the sea when they make their applications on 15 May?

I thank the officials for their presentation but the concern of farmers along the Clare coast goes further than what was addressed. Most of these areas are SACs, special area of conservation, and SPAs, special protection area, and farmers are unclear as to what they can do with repairing embankments on them. They simply cannot get an answer to this. It is indicative of a fragmented approach by various Departments. This has not been going on for the past several weeks but goes back 30 years with various Departments pussyfooting around this, disowning responsibility for culverts, in particular, and embankments. Farmers are quite prepared to repair these themselves, if they think they could without being penalised. They all have detailed maps setting out what is and is not in a SPA and SAC, yet, they still cannot get a clear answer as to what they can do on them.

Which Department is responsible for this? I have correspondence going back to former Ministers, Brendan Daly, Noel Treacy and John Wilson, on this matter. I do not mention them because they are all Fianna Fáil. They just happened to be in power at the time. If it had been Fine Gael or Labour Ministers, I am sure it would not have been any different. At some point, the buck-passing has to stop and someone must take responsibility. Democratic parliamentary accountability is about someone being responsible for key State infrastructure. Will the officials address this point? What steps are being taken between the Department and the National Parks and Wildlife Service which regularly inspects farms along the Shannon and Fergus estuaries?

Mr. Paud Evans

I spent my early years on a farm on which some fields were covered by rocks from an adjacent pebble beach, so I am familiar with the problems raised.

The Department operates robust derogation provisions for farmers in the agri-environment options scheme who do not meet the minimum stocking density. Each year, many affected farmers get paid when this occurs. In the cases of the seven-month rule and flooded lands, the Department will take a sympathetic approach when assessing them at payment time in September 2014.

We have to look at land that is lost and land that is temporarily lost as separate matters. The decisions recently made by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine on the implementation of the basic payment scheme will assist farmers affected. In the first instance, the number of entitlements a farmer will hold under the basic payment scheme in 2015 onwards is the number of eligible hectares he or she declared in 2013 and 2015 if lower. That means that land that is lost permanently will not be declared in 2105 and, therefore, that farmer will fully protected under the new regime. There is also a second element of protection. This week, the Minister announced he will use the value of the payment entitlements owned on 15 May 2014 to calculate the value of the basic payment from 2015 onwards. This means that if a farmer did not have enough land in 2014 to obtain the full payment, they will still get the benefit of the full value of their entitlements in the new calculation for 2015.

I note in the media that farmers with surplus entitlements are being encouraged to dispose of them. My advice would be to think very carefully about this because the value of those will be built into their new payment for at least seven years.

As for the protections for 2014, we have to look at land that is lost and land that is temporarily lost as separate matters. For land that has been damaged by the recent storms and will not be properly back in agricultural use by 15 May 2014, the principle of force majeure will have to apply and farmers will get payment. As Dr. Smyth said, the Department will take a pragmatic approach to these cases. The second element is land that is permanently lost which has happened in several counties. There will be no issue from 2015 onwards and the farmers will be fully protected. However, for 2014, the Minister has asked us to examine this problem to see if there are solutions to these cases.

We have great sympathy for these people who have lost some of their land. We are examining the possibility, as the Deputy mentioned, that these people could consolidate on their reduced hectares in 2014, which would mean they could be fully paid in 2014 as well as being protected going forward. That covers most of the queries on the disadvantaged areas and the single farm payment.

I welcome the efforts being made because last week the indications I received in the Dáil were very different. I accept that in the last week a lot of work has gone on. What Mr. Evans has outlined resolves the long-term issues for farmers. He has said if a farmer has a value of entitlement of €10,000 and had, say 50 ha and lost four hectares, the €10,000 stays and is spread over the 46 ha from 2015 onwards and, therefore there is no loss of money and no need for people to dispose of anything.

Mr. Paud Evans

It is the so-called surplus entitlements.

That is very good news and I welcome it. I asked another question on the fencing requirement. There is no way farmers along the coast will have all the walls built this year. There is a regulation in the single farm.

Mr. Liam Fahey

Again, we have to take a common sense approach. While, strictly, it would not be compliant, people must take into consideration the amount of damage done and how long it will take to have it repaired. Each case will be different in the amount and severity of the damage. If a farmer makes an honest endeavour to get this done as soon as possible - I know that is like asking how long a piece of string is - our intention would be to work within the constraints we have as far as possible so that the farmer will not be out of pocket for any moneys accruing from either Pillar 1 or Pillar 2 payments.

Could the Department comment on the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, and the relationship where there are special areas of conservation, SACs or natural heritage areas, NHAs?

Mr. Liam Fahey

For any land that is designated as Natura, be it under a special protection area, SPA or SAC, there is a prescription for each of those habitats that must be abided by. That is drawn up by NPWS. Each habitat has its own set of criteria of what one can and cannot do. A farmer who wishes to do something over and above what is allowed must get permission from NPWS. In the case of culverts and embankments it is up to NPWS to make the decision whether it will interfere with the habitat, biodiversity of flora and fauna or whatever. If it gives permission, the work can proceed.

I accept that everyone has to take holidays but I spent the past week trying to contact the relevant people down there and I was referred from one to the other, but they are all on leave. I am just a politician. I am paid to do this and it is not interfering with my land, but if I were a farmer and I had urgent works to do to get my lands into shape for next spring and summer I would not be very impressed. This is not about individuals but surely there is some planning going on somewhere. There has not been a national emergency, but it has not been too far off it in parts of west Clare and along the estuary, and one cannot get an answer from the appropriate people. Something must be done soon or else farmers may not be able to use those lands this year. If they do the wrong thing they potentially lose the single farm payment or a chunk of it.

Mr. Liam Fahey

That is a possibility but as I have pointed out to the Deputy, farmers must get permission if they intend to do something that is not within the prescription-----

As I have pointed out to Mr. Fahey, the reaction of his Department and others is wholly inadequate.

If somebody has sought permission to carry out work necessary to restore the land to good agricultural condition, and is having difficulty doing it, is that one of the considerations the Department would give when considering land not being as it should be? Mr. Fahey said the Department would take a sympathetic, case-by-case approach.

Mr. Liam Fahey

Yes, we would have to approach it on a case-by-case basis but any Natura land that is designated under the EU directive is either an SPA or an SAC. There are specific prescriptions for each of those habitats and that is under the auspices of the NPWS, in whose gift it is to allow a farmer to do something if that farmer seeks a derogation. If NPWS does not give that, it is not allowed to be done and if the farmer proceeds to do it, there are consequences, as the Chairman knows.

I will put it in reverse. I am a farmer-----

Deputy Penrose has indicated.

Surely this has come to the nub of the problem. There is no interaction between NPWS and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. NPWS will come down like a tonne of bricks on somebody who does not get the permission. A person could find himself or herself with a District Court prosecution. In this context, surely the Department, at a national level, could contact NPWS and indicate that force majeure circumstances will apply and that a farmer who cannot get clearance will have to take immediate measures to rectify and remedy the situation. In that context, surely NPWS can also take a force majeure approach and a parallel force majeure situation can apply in terms of what NPWS and the Department accept. This could ensure those farmers in west Clare or west Galway are accommodated and that they are not hit with a possible prosecution by the NPWS and, in parallel with the commitment the Department has given here today, do not find themselves losing anything as a result. I salute the Department for adopting a very common sense, pragmatic approach. Would that apply to all other agencies involved? The Department should contact them to ensure they area aware of the situation.

Let us suppose it is a notifiable action to restore the land, and any land reclamation tends to be a notifiable action. Let us further suppose a farmer writes to NPWS to ask permission to carry out this work. I take it that until NPWS replies - and if that is ten or 20 years that is tough luck - the State cannot have double jeopardy for the farmer and the farmer is covered and can keep drawing all the grants until the work is done.

That is the point I raised.

I would welcome an answer to that. The other issue is that while these works are being carried out by farmers who are willing to carry them out, they are the Department's responsibility. These culverts were under the Land Commission and most of them are State property. The embankments are State property. A succession of Governments since the foundation of this State has ignored these pieces of protection. Now farmers find themselves in the bizarre position where they will be penalised because of the failure of the State, its servants and agents to maintain these culverts and embankments since the foundation of the State. They were in much better shape relative to the needs of the time when the British flag was taken down in Dublin Castle in 1922.

We will try to wrap up. We are straying slightly outside the remit.

It is penalising farmers for the failure of the State.

We understand. The point is that in almost all cases all that will be asked will be permission to put it back into the condition it was in, that was the condition it was required to be in to allow the SPA or SAC to be protected. If somebody breached the NPWS prescription on that, NPWS would not be long notifying the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to impose a fine on the single farm payment. That high level of communication seems to be available.

Dr. Kevin Smyth

I take the point made by the committee on the need for joined-up Government and to do things right. The Department in which I work is taking a flexible an approach as we can using force majeure. I assure the committee I will write to my counterpart in the NPWS to express the concerns of the committee. I will tell the NPWS the approach we are taking and ask it to adopt a similar approach. Is this fair enough?

That is very fair.

We would all be very happy with that.

I thank the witnesses for the approach they took earlier. As my colleague stated, it was very pragmatic. I welcome Dr. Smyth's offer to write to the NPWS. We are trying to repair the damage caused by the sea and it would be very unfair to penalise a farmer in any way for trying to bring land back into production after damage caused by the sea.

We will move to the second issue with regard to the LPIS process that is under way.

I thank the witnesses for the detail they have given us. The LPIS process is causing huge grief. The major problem with the 2013 maps is that many of the features being picked out involve 0.01 ha or 0.02 ha. Some of it is a matter of opinion with regard to whether it is scrub with no grass growing on it and therefore not forage. Many farmers dispute this. The Department may state that an area is 50% or 80% scrub but a farmer will state it is 20% scrub and the rest of it can be grazed at times of the year over the required period. The statement that a farmer knew and it was on the forms is fairly simplistic and does not reflect the reality. Most farmers did not have methods or ways of measuring down to 0.01 ha and in many cases relied on measurements taken many years ago relating to land registry maps.

There is a further issue to which the witnesses alluded. They spoke about the fact that between 2004 and 2006 all of the land was reviewed, and significant reviews also took place in 2007 and 2008. Most farmers thought if they were not written to it was not because they had not been reviewed but because everything was in order. When they received the form they were asked by the planner whether any changes had occurred. They stated they had not, that they had the same land as they did last year when everything seemed to be in order, and they sent back the forms. If we were speaking about a significant amount of land, such as 2 ha, 5 ha or 10 ha, one could state that a farmer could not miss it, but we are arguing about farm roads and rocks, which are hard for a farmer to measure. The big issues are farm roads, rocks and scrub. In many cases farmers would dispute how much rocky land is not grazable in the summer and they would certainly dispute this with regard to many areas now declared as scrub.

Some of the maps are not square on the land. When the Minister came before the committee I had a copy of a map on which one could see parts of the green land were outside the line and parts of the strand were inside it. The lady with the farm in question had 3 ha. Ten percent of 3 ha is 0.3 ha and 3% is 0.03 ha. This is where penalties come in because once it goes over 3% one is penalised by three times the amount of land on which one is meant to have over-claimed. When this is multiplied by five years - one might argue the rocks were there all the time or the scrub is no different, and I will not disagree with this - one finds that people who happily took and spent the cheques are facing huge fines. I know of cases where the fine amounts to 3% multiplied by three, as the penalty is 9%, then multiplied by five, which is 45% of one year's payment. It is quite devastating. I have asked the Department for figures on this because it seems it will disproportionately hit farmers with very small farms on very poor land with a large amount of rocks which are not so productive, because the percentage game means it is easier to make an error and be tripped into the penalty regime of 3% on a small holding than on a significant holding.

Has the Department reviewed the 132,000 applicants? My figures suggest there are 120,000 single farm payment applicants, and I wonder from where the extra 12,000 come. Have they all been reviewed at this stage? Do we know, in rough terms, what percentage had no cut, what percentage had a cut of less than 3% with just a deduction in the land, what percentage had a cut of between 3% and 20% with all of the penalties attached, and what percentage was ruled out completely because the error was over 20%? Do we know how they relate to the size of farms? Are the vast majority of the people getting caught on very small farms because it is much easier to make a small error? It is very hard to miss a hectare but not so hard to miss a very small part of a hectare. Do we have this information, and can we relate it to farm size to see what is happening? If it is predominantly on very small farms, the total amount of over-claimed land about which Europe might be concerned would be very small; 3.5% of 10 ha is a very small amount of land compared to 3.5% of 100 ha or 1,000 ha.

I have a big objection to the retrospective element of this. Farmers sent in the forms in good faith believing they had been checked, that no change had been made and that they were in order. It came as a total surprise to them to find that, with no change in their farming, they were being slapped with a five-year penalty. How many of the 132,000 farmers will receive retrospective penalties for the five years?

It was stated that the amount involved was €1 million, or an average of €100 per annum. Does this mean the total overpayment was €1 million with regard to all of the farmers in Ireland? Is it an average of €100 per farm per annum?

Does that include all the penalties and is it just for one year? Does it mean that if it dates back to 2008, which is six years, it will then become an average of €600?

Farmers were penalised for having scrub. We would argue that some of the scrub would be broadleaf scrub, so the leaves would be off it and the cattle would graze through it, but they were still penalised. I am referring to 2013. A number of farmers have been in contact with us on that issue. That is basically the problem. Deputy Ó Cuív has outlined it in greater detail, but is there anything we can do to help them? They are losing sums ranging from €500 or €600 to €1,700, and it is over €2,000 in a few cases.

That is the 20% people.

I understand that the imagery has become very refined and one can do those things. However, the big issue is that a contractual arrangement was entered into with farmers. It was subject to a review in the mid-2000s and everybody thought everything was hunky-dory. Farmers are entitled to have a legitimate expectation, and that is a European principle as well, that all was fine and dandy, but now they are being hit with this. I saw some of the stuff that was sent out. I saw some of the maps excluding an area of land where the man lives - his house is on it. I wrote in about it, but I do not know whether it was corrected. I was absolutely astounded. This is a big area of land in the Ballymore area of Westmeath. As a result of this, he did not have the correct area of land. He said to me, "This is where I live, as you know". I knew that and I was astounded by it. Some of the areas that were coming out were bounded by the lines, but this area did not appear to be bounded. That led to a misconception, in my view. I did not hear anything back so it probably was corrected, although it might not have been. That is the type of thing that drives people mad, when they think that they have made everything they have submitted correct and they have done so over a number of years. It is causing real angst.

Deputy Ó Cuív is correct. If there is a small area of land and the penalty is trebled and so forth, it has a huge impact. Does the appeal system allow for an oral hearing, or is it just a documentary, evidential hearing? Is it like the normal appeals system that was established in 2006 - the witnesses will know that I was deeply involved with and interested in that - or is it just the submission of documentary evidence? A person who feels aggrieved should be entitled to give oral evidence, backed up by whatever professional he or she brings to ensure that their case is adequately presented and that there is no ambiguity about the point they are making in terms of the corrections.

Dr. Kevin Smyth

Paud Evans will deal with some of the detailed areas that have been mentioned. I will put this in the overall context. The Commission auditors are coming over to us next month and, basically, they want to close off five years of audits for Ireland. They have done it to many other member states. They have visited the state, looked at the LPIS system and in virtually all the member states the Commission is not happy with the land parcel identification system. It has introduced a series of disallowances for member states and has taken massive amounts of money from those states. It has taken £240 million from England, £80 million from Northern Ireland and it is threatening the French with a three-year disallowance of 5%, which will amount to €1.1 billion. That is the position.

There are two ways in which we can deal with this. The Commission has identified weaknesses in our system and it wants some of its money back. It says the system has not been operated properly. It is particularly worried about the way we have been dealing with ineligible features. It is telling us we have two choices. We can take the disallowance route and the disallowance can be 2%, 5% or 10%. Over five years a 2% disallowance would be approximately €160 million. That is the minimum disallowance. It could be 5%, which is €400 million.

The other way of dealing with it, which is the approach we are taking and which is relatively innovative, is to look at every land parcel in the country and take out all the ineligible features. That will result in a more personalised approach, in the sense that we will identify individual farmers. We will also be able to quantify what the risk to the fund was. We will say where the problems were and we will show them. We have done much of that work. The Commission is coming over and I do not wish to talk about figures until it has verified our work, but we are hoping that by taking that approach, the bill will be much smaller. However, money is owed to the European Union, and there is no way out of that.

Deputy Ó Cuív asked about percentages. Just over 70% of farmers do not have a problem. They have either put in the right area or they claimed a lesser area, so they cannot be accused of over-claiming. They have allowed for it. Approximately 20% of farmers have an ineligible area of less than 3%. They will not be penalised on that. The area will simply be taken away. This is the 2,500 farmers we mentioned and the €1 million in that regard. Then we get to the problem area. Approximately 6% of farmers have an over-claim of between 3% and 20%. There are penalties arising from that.

Finally, there is a category of 400 farmers who have an over-claim of over 20%. The problem under the EU rules, and they are very strict and brutal, is that once one has an over-claim of over 20% one is entitled to no payment whatsoever. It is that simple. An over-claim of over 20% means no payment, and there are 400 of those cases. These are the cases we have prioritised. I referred to the verification checks. We have checked them out both by getting our best people to look at the maps to see if there is any way to get the percentage down, and by sending inspectors just to look at the farm and see if there is anything there, for example, different types of scrub where we can make a difference and try to get the figures down. That is what we are dealing with at present.

Mr. Paud Evans

Deputy Ó Cuív asked about the number of applicants. The number of people who are paid a single farm payment at present - it will change next year - is 123,000. The remaining 8,000 to 9,000 farmers submit a single payment form every year and declare eligible land. Most of them are in receipt of the disadvantaged areas scheme payment or REPS, now AEOS, or possibly the organic scheme payment. There are 132,000 farmers on our database making an application in 2013 with eligible land. Many of those will get entitlements if they were farming in 2013 under the new regime, so they will be in receipt of the basic payment from 2015 onwards.

The Deputy mentioned the map he showed the Minister during the discussion on the Estimates. We have looked at that map and it is accurate. There is an issue in our system. We started digitising in 1995 or 1996 using the Ordnance Survey map. A great deal of work has been done on that database since then and there is what is known as a nudge issue with the lines one might see. We can correct it most of the time when we are printing the map. However, when one is working on the system, one might see the digitised line perhaps inside the fence whereas it is gone onto the road on the other side. We are aware that it is an issue, but it does not affect the accuracy of the area that is measured. In that particular case, it did not.

The review that was undertaken went on for a number of years, from 2007 to 2009. That was a limited review. We did not have the technology we have now to be able to go through 900,000 parcels in a few months and it was entirely based on risk. It was based on farmers whom we asked in 2008 to tell us where the farm hub was. We identified farmers or applicants who told us the farm hub was in a parcel on which they were claiming 100%. They were clearly risk cases, so it was limited to those.

A full review was not conducted. Nobody was ever told at any stage, during or subsequent to that review, that everybody else was clear. That was not said, absolutely not said.

I will now deal with the situation in regard to applicants. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine ran a major media campaign in 2010 which we followed up with direct correspondence to farmers to get them to take areas ineligible for EU payment purposes, out of the farm acreage. We wrote to all farmers, enclosing the map of their lands, asking them specifically to identify on the map roadways, scrub, buildings, forest and any other ineligible features that were not shown on the maps, which dated from 2004 and 2005 and take this out of the total acreage. To emphasise the point, written in red typeface in the letter running to a page and a half, was a request to please deduct the acreage of the parcels of lands that were ineligible for EU payments from the total acreage. This letter was sent to every farmer in the country. Clearly any farmer who reads the correspondence from the Department would have been fully aware of what he or she was meant to do and what he or she was obliged to do.

On the issue of smaller deductions, there is a tolerance at farm level of 0.1 hectare. Where we take out 0.1 hectares or less in any scheme year, that has no impact on payments. I take the Deputy's point on scrub. We took a decision, based on the ortho-imagery which has very good resolution. We take the point that there can be grazing but the grazing must be used. Sometimes when we go onto the ground we can see no animal has been there for a number of years. A farmer who has sought a review on the level of reduction for scrub will have a departmental official visit his farm. One of our major objectives for this entire exercise is to have our system as accurate as possible for the future. That is vitally important. The problem will continue to exist if we do not have that level of accuracy. We can only determine the level of scrub by sending somebody out to the farm. There are down-sides to seeking a review. Farmers are made aware by our staff of the three possible outcomes of a review: the situation can remain the same, the situation may get better but the outcome may be that the situation gets worse. That happens quite a bit. Farmers are told to be very careful and be sure they are on solid ground before making an appeal.

We took out roadways but many farmers have told us that the roadway has been grassed over and is now an area of green grass. We are putting all of that land back onto the maps. We are also aware that mistakes will occur when one is working on 900,000 parcels and redigitising one third, some 300,000 parcels, over a very short period. We will put our hands up if we make a mistake and we will correct it. Deputy Penrose raised that issue. Let me give an example, in one case in County Donegal, part of the parcel we were taking out seemed to be a lake, but during the internal review before it was taken out, what was thought to be a lake was a shadow on the screen. In that case, the penalty would have been more than 20% but following the review, the penalty is zero.

Rocks also cause issues. The ortho-imagery taken in December is a very different picture from that taken in July. We were very careful when considering rocks. Initially, we took out REPS 4 habitats, as they were seen as ineligible but all of those were put back. In some of the ordnance survey maps, drains were classified as rivers. A drain is fully eligible but we are able to identify all of those internally and correct our mistakes. We do not have to wait for a farmer to tell that to the Department. The same applied to the habitats issue, we were able to identify all REPS habitats on our system and put them back into the land parcels as eligible lands. This is an ongoing process. We are going through the appeals. Some 800 appeals are now with the digitising company, so that means the mistakes are being corrected and the areas in dispute are being reduced. Farmers will get refunds for 2013. When we have the outcome of the so-called rapid field visits and they show a reduction, refunds will be made to those farmer. Dr. Smyth has outlined what will happen to the cases with discrepancies in excess of 20%. The fine in these instances is very serious. There are 260 such cases in the LPIS database. We conducted an internal review of the case of each of those farmers, and that is how we discovered the case in County Donegal involving the shadow. We wrote to the farmers, explaining the situation and gave them a full set of maps and told when an official would visit. We also told them that they could have somebody with them when they were visited. We are now getting the results of those verification visits. Some of them will benefit from a reduction from over 20% to under 20% and that will be good news for some of the farmers.

We are very conscious of the impact of this on individual farm families. We want to ensure that no farmer is penalised for having declared eligible land, that our system is accurate and that we have carried out the task to the satisfaction of the Commission.

I am a little confused. Mr. Evans said that 70% of farmers have no problems, which means 30% of farmers have an issue. He then indicated that 2,500 farmers approximately were informed of the application deductions for the period from 2009 to 2012. I wish to establish whether it runs from 2008 to 2012 or from 2009 to 2012. Second, does that mean that the other 30,000 farmers are through the gap in respect of retrospection or that the Department has not got as far as dealing with them?

The major issue is retrospection, because it multiplies the sums involved by five.

Mr. Paud Evans

In the 1,000 cases dealt with as part of the balancing payment were 1,000 farmers who had an over-claim established as part of the 2013 LPIS review. The over-claim in these cases was under 2 hectares or under 3% and did not attract penalties. In these cases, there will be a deduction for retrospection for the four years from 2009 to 2012, inclusive. The total amount payable for the four years in question is approximately €1 million, which is €400 per person, or €100 per annum for four years. In relation to all of the other cases that had over-claims in 2013 and warranted retrospection on the basis that having looked at each case individually, we established whether we could find the ineligible feature in a previous photograph or ortho-imagery and if we could not, there was no retrospection. All of that retrospection has been done on the system for the Commission auditors to review when they come. No further decision will be taken about that until the audit is complete.

There are some 30,000 farmers who could potentially get a letter once the Commission auditors leave numbers telling them there is retrospection.

Mr. Paud Evans

No decision has been made in that matter.

I know that, but there are some 30,000 farmers in the pool. Is that not correct?

Mr. Paud Evans

No. There are fewer than 20,000 farmers in that group.

How did Mr. Evans arrive at that figure?

Mr. Paud Evans

We were able, subject to the Commission agreeing to this, to apply the principle of cross-compensation in the calculations for the previous years. Cross-compensation means that if one has a parcel of land and the reference area, that is the total eligible area in the parcel is ten hectares and the farmer is being prudent and is claiming 9.8 hectares, we have looked at the parcel as part of the entire review, we have not identified it as having something ineligible in the parcel. The farmer gets credit for that for the purposes of recalculation. If he had an over-claim of 0.2 hectares, but we establish that he is not claiming 0.3 hectares within his reference area, there is no retrospection.

That is the nub of the problem. It is fine that the Department wrote these letters to people, but most farmers thought they had made enough adjustments for the features, as Mr. Evans called them. Rocks are very hard to measure, scrub is always going to be a point of argument and other features are hard to measure when one gets down to the micro level of these maps. A farmer does not have a digital system to measure all of these elements so it is unfair to set him back five years. I do not have a huge problem with the small adjustments for the current year. If there is an adjustment of between €50 and €100 in the current year and it is claimed the land was not measured accurately, then most farmers will accept such decisions.

Let me return to the idea that the Department wrote and told a farmer the information. The farmer had no way of measuring and that is where the retrospective aspect is unfair. The common perception, be it right or wrong, was that the Department had checked the details and once a farmer got the payment he or she was in the clear. Everybody in rural Ireland would have thought that once the Department approved claims and made payments to farmers it was not possible that the claims could be wrong and the Department could claim the money back five years later. The retrospective element is the major problem, particularly when many cases involve very small pieces of land amounting to 0.1 of a hectare, when one hectare is 2.5 acres.

Mr. Paud Evans

It is 2.47 acres.

Yes; we want to be very accurate. I presume that there are a few more digits after that.

We have to be very accurate for them.

Mr. Paud Evans

Yes.

Exactly. We could probably add a few more digits. It could be like pi and be without end. If we deem 1 hectare to be 2.471 acres, then 0.1 hectares equals 0.24 of an acre. That is not an awful lot of land for somebody to measure accurately, particularly when talking about rocks and things.

Another problem that I find annoying, and which many farmers find awfully strange, is to do with farmers who have hazel, scrub and whatever. What if they decide to make the space a forage area and get a big machine to flatten the ground? The Department's birdy friends would be down on them like a shot declaring that they cannot carry out such work. What happens if somebody wants to keep the land in its natural state but the Department refuses to pay them for doing so even though it remains part of the claim?

Mr. Evans has clarified that matter. He said that habitat zones were added back in.

No, only if they are in REPS 4.

Mr. Paud Evans

When people finish their REP scheme - as many have done - we made provision that if they want to retain the habitat that they could call it a designated habitat on their application, retain it and get fully paid for it going forward.

I have a designated habitat at home so I know there is restricted access to grazing but it is still included in the eligible area.

Mr. Paud Evans

I will respond to Deputy Ó Cuív's query about people destroying habitats and so on. I ask him to recall my initial comments on the new regime. I said that the number of entitlements that people will hold going forward will be based on the number of eligible hectares determined in 2013 or in 2015, if that is lower. We will ask people to think very carefully when making their declaration. If they want to be fully protected going forward, then they must ensure that they only claim for eligible land in 2015.

With regard to the decision to use entitlements rather than payments, these people will be fully paid under the new regime without the need to take a match to their land, or whatever the case may be, which has consequences.

It is designated habitat.

Mr. Paud Evans

Yes. It carries forward.

If I decided in 2018 to record all of my 20 hectares, for example, on the application, with only ten acres recorded as eligible, then I could double my payments on the ten acres, yet still be on the right side of things forever. Perhaps that is an exaggeration. Let us say I recorded 19 of the 20 hectares and stacked it. Therefore, the only difficulty would be that one could not go up or down. In fact, one would come down more or go up slightly less.

Mr. Paud Evans

People are meant to declare all of their eligible land. An accurate LPIS is an issue for the Commission. In the same way member states under-managed the process, underclaims are nearly being treated with the same disdain as overclaims.

It is possible for a farmer to practice what I call consolidation by stealth under the new regime. Let me give an example. If a farmer does not want to continue to rent land from 2015 onwards, based on the fact that he or she may not be able to get it every year, they can make that decision, but they must pay the consequence. The number of entitlements that will establish the new unit value will depends on whether one is above or below average.

One will not go up as much or one will not come down as much.

Mr. Paud Evans

The consequence is that it will either decrease or increase, and it depends on where one is.

That is the other side of the equation that must be factored in.

Under the EU regulations the Commission has a right to impose a flat rate correction of 2%, 5% or 10%. If one is 99.9% accurate can the Commission still impose a fine of 2%?

Dr. Kevin Smyth

That depends on the weakness that the Commission finds in the system. It often does, and it has been the norm up to recently to apply a flat rate correction. The European Court of Auditors does not agree with this approach and views it as being very unfair to member states. Its opinion is that the risk to the fund should be quantified and that one should say "No, the risk is actually 0.7%". That is the risk involved if one adopts the approach mentioned by the Deputy.

Is that the reason the Department has adopted such an approach?

Mr. Paud Evans

Yes.

To date, and cumulatively, 132,000 have been done. Let us say every appeal fails. What percent is the overclaim out of the total amount of land involved?

Mr. Paud Evans

Slightly less than 1%.

What does that percentage represent in hectares?

Mr. Paud Evans

I have not got the calculations completely updated, but it is 44,000 hectares. Every year 4.7 million eligible hectares are declared under the single farm payment scheme and the other direct aid schemes, which 132,000 farmers claim for, and it amounts to 4.7 million hectares.

Is that 44,000 hectares?

Mr. Paud Evans

Yes.

That amounts to €250 per hectare.

Most people have an average of less than a hectare.

Mr. Paud Evans

Quite a lot of people have reductions, yet they have no impact on their payments.

For the State, it seems to me to be €1 million.

As opposed to €160 million or €1 million per year.

It will cost €1 million to sort out the fact that 44,000 hectares have been overclaimed. That means farmers have been paid for 44,000 hectares they should not have been paid for. Is that right?

Mr. Paud Evans

Yes. Some people would not have suffered any consequences because they have more land.

I am not saying that. I am referring to the State or Ireland Inc.

Mr. Paud Evans

It is €10 million.

Is €10 million the bottom line?

Mr. Paud Evans

Yes. Based on the calculations that Deputy Ó Cuív has, it is 44,000 hectares.

Is that €8 million?

Mr. Paud Evans

Yes.

Is that €8 million out of €1.2 billion?

Mr. Paud Evans

Yes.

The single farm payment amounts to €8 million out of the €2 billion total. Some people in Brussels must be awful bored because, like a lot of things that people get excited about, this is peanut money in the greater scheme of things. This issue has caused a lot of personal grief to an awful lot of people, and has led to an awful lot of worry for older people, over a whole heap of nothing. It confirms my belief that European bureaucrats live in a rarefied and weird world that bears no relationship to my world.

Dr. Kevin Smyth

I wish to make a final point that sum refers to just Ireland. Let us consider that the amount of money that is collected across the 28 member states - as it is now - is enormous and amounts to hundreds of millions of euro every year. Between 2006 and 2012 the EU took €6 billion off all of the schemes, which was returned to the EU budget.

Clearly, all the European Union is saying is that it is enforcing the rules as it sees it and that it has identified weaknesses. The key for us is to minimise the amount of money that has to be transferred.

If we can demonstrate that it is only €8 million or €10 million that we have proven that-----

Dr. Kevin Smyth

I am not going to speculate. I would not like to be drawn.

On the calculations that we have just discussed, if it is that minimal and there is all this work, but at the same time the potential-----

Dr. Kevin Smyth

We must remember it is five years of retrospection.

I am aware of that but it is a hell of a lot different from some of the other figures. The process has been explained very well by Dr. Smyth. I thank the officials for their openness in the first instance and for the clarity provided to the committee. I thank them also for the approach they have taken in respect of the first issue, on the result of the recent bad weather and storms, to individual cases. I hope that Dr. Smyth's letter to his counterpart in the National Parks and Wildlife Service is met with the same type of approach.

Dr. Kevin Smyth

I will forward a copy to the committee.

I thank Dr. Smyth.

Deputy Eamon Ó Cuív

Through all of this grief, which I think is European, crazy, bureaucratic madness, I pay tribute to the staff of the Department because they are dealing with an impossible situation. They themselves are always courteous and incredibly helpful to us in trying to deal with difficult problems for many constituents who are amazed at all of this and who never acted in bad faith and cannot understand the reason they are suddenly adversely affected by this issue. The officials say they wrote to them all.

I will conclude on this issue. I remember when I became a Member, in 2002, we were all given a big book which contained everything to do with fire regulations and the fire safety of the House. Fire safety statements were written. As Members we should all have written it. I remember asking hundreds of my colleagues if they ever read it. I think I was the only one who ever looked at it; I looked at only to say that I had looked at it. Like every other human being, we are already overloaded with pages, and the more that comes the less that is read. They had done what everyone else had done, namely, just threw it up on the shelf and never read it. Then somebody will say to them some day: "You were given it; you are a TD and should have read it, as you made the laws that stated it was important that all this material was given to you." That is the problem.

On that note, as there is no further business, I thank the officials for appearing before the committee.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.43 a.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 4 March 2014.
Top
Share