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Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine debate -
Tuesday, 20 Jan 2015

Rural Development Programme 2014-2020: Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine

I remind everybody to turn off their mobile phones. I welcome the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Before we begin, I take this opportunity to congratulate Mr. Aidan O'Driscoll, who is present today, on his appointment to the position of Secretary General of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. A letter of congratulations and good wishes was issued to Mr. O'Driscoll before the meeting.

I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. There was a slight delay as members have expressed serious misgivings about the fact that the document details were only made available at 1 p.m. and they have not had time to consider them. There are 266 observations on the part of the European Commission. Members feel it would have been much more beneficial if they had had more time to consider the document before discussing it with the Minister. That is the opinion of members. I regret that we are in this position. I have offered every member an opportunity to speak for three minutes if they wish in advance of any statement from the Minister. Those are the wishes of the committee.

As there are so many details in this document, we are not in a position to go through it with the Minister today. I am not sure if members wish to make contributions but they can have three minutes each if they so wish.

I do not understand what the committee wishes to do. Is the Chairman suggesting we will not have the meeting?

We could adjourn the meeting until we have had time to go through the document. We have not had the chance to do that yet.

May I explain the context of the document? Much of the document is no longer relevant as much of the detail has been already clarified and addressed.

It is not normal practice during the compilation of a Common Agricultural Policy for a Minister to come before the committee and be as open as I am being about ongoing negotiations with the Commission. This has not happened before. I have done so in an effort to be as open as we can be. The vast majority of the 266 questions have been dealt with. I wanted to give the members an update on the current position in terms of getting to a point where we can start opening some schemes. If people do not want to hear that, that is fine, but the next time we are likely to be able to meet again the whole conversation could be irrelevant. It is up to the members because I am trying to be as open as I can be. We have discussed the process around getting approval for a rural development programme in an open way, both in committee and in response to Dáil questions. The 266 questions were asked of us a number of months ago now. We did not make them public because we were in the middle of a process with the Commission, but I said that as soon as we could make those public, we would make them available to the committee - which we did. The last time a rural development programme was being put together, I do not think a similar list of questions was made available to any Oireachtas committee. This is a negotiation between a Government and a Commission, but I am trying to be as open as I can be about the process. I am in the committee's hands. I can give the members an update on the key issues that are potential stumbling blocks to progress - which is what I thought was the focus for the committee - but if members wish to look at all the questions and essentially take a retrospective look at how we dealt with them, we can do that in a few weeks' time. I am not trying to be unhelpful; rather, I am trying to be as open as I can be about the process. That is all.

This actually makes the situation even worse. Shortly after the Minister said he could not make the information available in reply to a Dáil question from me, it was made available and everyone got their hands on the 266 questions. What we did not have until 1 p.m. today was the Minister's observations.

To be clear, for the record, the information was not made available by us.

I know that, but it was available. I could never understand the big secrecy when it came to making that document available. Like everything else, it was inevitably going to come out in any case. The next issue concerns the observations. I understand these were sent back some time ago, if not well before Christmas. It now appears that we should have been given a further update in order to brief ourselves for this meeting. It is a matter for us then to decide, based on the documentation, what we consider to be the key issues. Therefore, I ask that this meeting be reconvened in a matter of days. I thought we were all trying to improve the practices of the Oireachtas. The past is another world and another time. I suggest that the Minister provide us with a commentary on the current position on these two documents so that the committee is properly versed on the up-to-date negotiating position and so that we can make our input into the outstanding issues. I fully support the Chairman in saying that this meeting should be suspended until we have the full relevant information, and we can then have a proper debate.

I welcome the Minister's statement that some of the 266 matters raised by the Commission have been dealt with. Rather than having each member of the committee go through each of the 266 matters, it would be more helpful if the Minister could clarify, either in documentation or verbally, how many of the 266 remain to be dealt with and how many of these are big-ticket items. If the Commission has accepted the answers from the Department then, in my view, the matter has been clarified, and we should just be dealing with the matters that remain to be clarified with the Commission. I ask the Minister how many of the 266 remain to be dealt with, because that is what we should be talking about.

While I welcome the Minister's involvement, it is not appropriate that we only received this information one hour prior to the meeting. I would like a process whereby the committee might be included in matters of this nature to be put in place. I am of the view that the committee is relevant - from the point of view of the position it occupies in this Parliament - and that should be in a position to advise on the direction Ireland takes with regard to policy. If the committee is merely a rubber stamp, then there is no need for me to be here. There are many competent individuals on this committee. Point No. 15 refers to the fact that the water footprint in Irish agriculture is low and it also refers to pesticide use. The deadline in respect of endocrine disrupters was Friday last. This matter is really relevant to tillage farmers but the committee is not being given the opportunity to have an input on it. There are those of us who are specialists in various areas and to say that our opinions do not count or cannot be contemplated in the context of the process is just not right. This is extremely disappointing.

Someone's mobile phone is switched on and is interfering with the sound.

I would like to have seen the document with which we have been presented a little earlier. Some of us can actually keep matters to ourselves. Not all information actually ends up in the newspapers.

I agree with Senator Pat O'Neill. We should listen to what the Minister has to say and perhaps he will provide clarification on a number of the points that have been made. If difficulties remain, then we can discuss the relevant points further.

We should listen to what the Minister has to say and obtain an indication of what is the up-to-date position.

Perhaps I might address some of the issues-----

The committee made a decision. Can we stick to that or if there is a need to change it, then we should go into private session again?

I am trying to-----

If we want to alter what has already been agreed, then it will be necessary to suspend proceedings for a few moments. I formally propose that we take this course of action.

Sitting suspended at 3.30 p.m. and resumed at 3.40 p.m.

My apologies for the disruption. We have asked the Minister to address us on the state of play at present, outline the outstanding issues that remain to be resolved and that the Department would furnish the committee with a summary document, even if it is on the 266 questions. Normally, when we would get a document it would be marked as resolved, unresolved and set out what are the issues. We would then be in a position to hear back from the Minister or, if he is unavailable, perhaps the Secretary General within the next two weeks on the state of progress at that point.

The members will make general points after the Minister has finished.

My apologies for the confusion. There was certainly no intention to keep information from anybody, in case that is the feeling at the meeting. This was a Commission document we received in October. Since then there has been an ongoing toing and froing. We have been sending teams to Brussels virtually every week. Fintan O'Brien has been leading that effort. We can talk about the 266 questions as if that is the only thing under discussion if the committee wishes, but it totally misses the point in terms of where the process is right now and how we can get this over the line so we can start opening schemes. That has been my focus.

By all means, if the committee wants me or some of the officials to go through each of the 266 questions and the answers we sent to all of them, we can do that. However, that will take a long time and members will find that most of those are issues that are long since dealt with. The vast majority of them are technical issues; they are clarifications for the Commission, which has a team of people looking at all of the RDP plans in the same way as they are looking at the Irish plan. In fact, Ireland was one of the countries that had the fewest number of questions. Finland was the only country that had fewer questions than Ireland. Another group, comprising Finland, Ireland, Lithuania, Latvia, Romania, England, the Czech Republic and Scotland, received observations more or less at the same time.

I have been on the other side of this discussion, seeking information as a committee member and a proper, in-depth conversation with the Minister to try to get under the skin of things. It is frustrating if one does not have information but I assure members that it was not due to any strategy by us. The Commission made it clear that this was its document and if we were to release it to anybody, it wanted to be part of that decision making process. The Commission specifically said that to us before Christmas.

I said I would release the questions when I could. I understand An Taisce then received the questions and they were published on the website of another NGO. Some members will have seen the questions, but the point is that many of them are no longer relevant. I will make my statement and will make myself available in the next few days, if I can and my diary allows, if that would be helpful, to clarify some of the other issues.

I thank the committee for the invitation to address it today on the approval process for the new rural development programme spanning 2014 to 2020. I am very pleased to have the opportunity to fulfil the commitment I made in the Dáil last December to apprise the committee on the progress being made by my Department in securing agreement with the European Commission on the approval of the draft RDP.

I must emphasise at the outset that RDP approval is a formal legal process and has been the highest priority for my Department since it submitted the draft programme last July. The proposed measures contained in the draft RDP have been the subject of detailed, lengthy and rigorous scrutiny by the Commission. The approval process is ongoing and my Department is currently engaged in a series of ongoing bilateral meetings with Commission officials.

The financial allocation for the new programme will total some €4 billion in EU and national funding over its lifetime. By any standard, this level of investment is a strong statement of the Government's commitment to developing the potential of the rural economy generally and the farming sector in particular. Programme expenditure will be a key element in enhancing the competitiveness of the agrifood sector, achieving more sustainable management of natural resources and ensuring a more balanced development of rural areas in the line with the overall CAP objectives.

The proposed measures in the new programme were framed in light of the experience of the previous programme and were developed over 18 months following an extensive stakeholder consultation exercise, a number of preparatory analyses and an independent ex ante evaluation. The draft RDP includes GLAS, a substantial new agri-environment scheme worth €1.4 billion over the programme period, and a number of other targeted environmental measures.

It has a continued strong support for areas of natural constraint, formerly known as disadvantaged areas, amounting to some €195 million per year. It also includes significant support for on-farm capital investment, with a total of €395 million over the lifetime of the RDP, a range of knowledge transfer measures across various sectors with which members will be familiar, support for collaborative farming, targeted support for the beef sector by means of an innovative beef data and genomics programme and support for wider rural development issues via the provision of €250 million in funding for the continuation of the Leader programme.

Following the submission of Ireland's RDP, the European Commission provided its formal observations on the draft on 20 October. I understand the members of the committee have been provided with the details of those observations. The receipt of these formal observations in effect opened a formal process of bilateral discussion with the Commission on the draft RDP.

Meetings between officials in my Department and the Commission services are taking place on an almost weekly basis, but it is difficult to be definitive about the likely duration of these discussions, given the demands on Commission resources and the need for the Directorate-General for Agriculture and Rural Development to co-ordinate with several other Directorates-General that have commented on the draft RDP. This is not just about negotiating with the Directorate-General for Agriculture and Rural Development. It also involves DG-CLIMA and the environment DG, in particular regarding measures like GLAS, where environment, climate and agriculture all feel the need to have an input. It is complex and involves back-and-forth negotiations.

The protracted nature of the approval process is also linked to the Commission's workload in examining 188 RDPs in accordance with stringent legal requirements on the justification for proposed measures and the need for sound financial management of public resources.

While all programmes are subject to the same approval procedures, the timescale for approval will obviously vary depending on the complexity, scale and scope of individual programmes.

Following agreement on a member state's national or regional programme, a draft RDP must go through a formal adoption process in the Commission. The Commissioner, Mr. Phil Hogan has, however, recently announced that the Commission will provide letters of comfort to member states whose rural development programmes have been agreed with the Commission in principle but which are awaiting the full formal and legal adoption of the programme. This development should facilitate early implementation of RDP schemes and supports across member states. Given the need for continuity in relation to RDP schemes between programming periods, my overriding goal now is to expedite the approval process.

In terms of the content of the observations received from the Commission, a total of 266 observations were received, incorporating a range of technical and legal policy issues. The level of feedback from the Commission is not out of line with the observations received by other member states, as I pointed out earlier. In fact, in many cases, the number of observations received on our draft RDP was significantly less than other member states. It is also important to note that the feedback received, and the follow-up discussions, incorporate the views of all the relevant directors general in the Commission, and not just those of the Directorate for Agriculture and Rural Development.

A significant element of the exchange of information to date with the Commission has been on some of the technical and legal issues raised in their observations. In many cases these have been easily addressed and can be rectified in the new draft of the RDP. For instance, in a number of the cases, the Commission has highlighted the need to reference particular EU regulations or to update particular pieces of data provided in response by my Department. Those amendments have already been made. Similarly, the Commission has raised a number of queries for further background and explanatory information. For example, the Commission has requested explanatory material on many of the background chapters which are included in the RDP, such as the strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats, SWOT, and needs analyses, and this material has been forwarded to the Commission.

As the flagship scheme within the RDP, much of the bilateral discussions have focused on the GLAS scheme. The bilateral discussions have covered in detail the targeted structure of the scheme and the Commission has gone through all the individual actions in the scheme to examine the underlying logic and costings and the need for all actions to go above the baseline. In other words, they have to add something to what is already the requirement under Pillar 1 payments.

These discussions have been very productive and the Commission is broadly supportive of the approach being taken. There are some issues which are still under discussion, such as the control and prioritisation of expenditure, including the issue of maximum payments, and the approach to controlling low-input actions - in other words, limitations on fertiliser inputs and so on, in terms of putting a value on those actions. However, very real progress has been made in recent weeks. I want to thank my team for the work they have been doing on this. They have gone way beyond what would normally be asked of them in terms of workload.

The proposed beef data and genomics programme has also been the subject of intensive discussions - mainly because this scheme is new and they need to get their heads around it. All three DGs need to do that. This scheme is included in the RDP as a climate change measure and the bona fides of the climate change benefits arising from the scheme have been the subject of rigorous scrutiny. At this stage, we are happy that the Commission accepts the basis for the scheme. Discussions are now at an advanced stage on the more technical aspects of the scheme's implementation.

Intensive negotiations with the Commission are ongoing and my Department has provided a range of requested information and clarifications to the Commission on its observations and queries.

Further meetings to clarify outstanding issues are scheduled to take place in the coming weeks. The successful completion of this approval process is very much my priority in order to ensure that the range of schemes contained in the draft rural development programme can be rolled out to underpin development and growth across rural areas.

The committee will probably ask me for a timescale in terms of when we might be able to get this job done. I would certainly be hopeful that by the middle of next month we will be in a position to at least make progress on the opening of GLAS, with a view to trying to open other schemes, probably in the middle of March. We are pushing hard to get agreement in principle on the detail of the key schemes and to get a letter of comfort, as soon as is practical and is legally possible, from the Commission, at which the Commission is also looking. As late as yesterday, I spoke to the Commissioner, Mr. Hogan, on this issue. I can assure the committee we will continue to push it as hard as we can.

I thank the Minister.

The Minister has already answered my first question, which is the obvious question of when we will see action. The Minister is already behind his original targets and the problem in that regard is that agri-environment scheme payments are falling off a cliff and farmers are suffering significantly from the loss of income. I note we got the farm review 2014 from the IFA today. It shows that, despite the benign weather, last year was not a good year for most farmers, and incomes are not increasing. For farmers who have been heavily dependent, in many cases for over 20 years, on agri-environment schemes, the delay in GLAS is causing severe financial difficulties.

Having read this document, I take it as the baseline document. In that document are the various schemes the Minister is proposing, with a lot of other background information that the European Commission requires. Of course, as we all will be aware, when the Minister is finished this process the ordinary farmer will get out this document and ask what schemes he or she can avail of, what are the conditions, and what return will he or she get in terms of more knowledge and income from the schemes. As of now, all we know is what the Minister has proposed and what is in that document.

It would have been useful if the Department had briefed us properly so that when we went through the 266 items that were raised by the European Commission and the Minister's negotiations, the Minister could tell us, for example, that 200 of these meant textual changes, such as references to regulation but not changes any scheme in the document. The details and conditions of the schemes are what the farmers are interested in. The Minister could highlight in detail, as Deputy Barry highlighted here in private, the negotiations that are going on, some of which involve quite finely detailed points that could make a scheme workable or unworkable, and we could then hone in on those rather than having to figure out whether the 266 points are relevant any more or whether the issue has been resolved, perhaps by inserting a technical reference into the document. I would hope in the next few days that the Minister could provide us with such a document so that we know where the changes are happening in the schemes that matter to farmers, because that is really what farmers want to know about.

I will make a second point that is relevant here. The world has changed rapidly, particularly the system of communications, and we need to change with it.

The Minister is going on simple facts and figures which indicate that the number of sheep on the hills had reduced but we knew that because the Minister had forced them down. He had forcibly taken the sheep from farmers. That was a given before he started and, therefore, I need clarification on whether the Department has been selling a story to Brussels that there is a problem getting farmers to put sheep on hills. Brussels will insist on action based on this which has nothing to do with reality. Reference is often made to evidence-based decision-making but the Minister has no evidence of farmers being unwilling to farm hills based on his replies to my parliamentary questions which I received eventually after going to the Ceann Comhairle. We need to find out whether Brussels is operating with false information from the Minister's Department and whether that could have negative effects on the regime introduced for hill farmers.

It is ironic to be told as a Dáil Deputy that the Commission said I should not be given the document. The NGOs have the document and were able to send it to me the next day. We have to say we can no longer be the last to know. We need faith in the system and in the elected people that the Commission will not tell all the NGOs in sight what is in these documents. All of us experience the reality that at times even the Minister does not know as quickly as these bodies because the EU machinery gives the documents away. I often used to comment when people referred to Cabinet security of documents and wondered how these were received electronically that the day the plain paper copier was invented - and we have gone well beyond that with e-mail and so on - was the day confidentiality went out the window. This false confidentiality that goes around the place does not serve anybody and, in particular, democracy in this country well. We were promised a democratic revolution but reference to how things were done in the past is irrelevant. Can the Minister indicate changes to this document in respect of schemes? Where is the main focus of debate? Where is Europe focusing the requirement for change?
The second issue is not covered in detail in the document but it is a major part of what has happened since the publication of this document. There is huge concern in hill areas regarding GLAS and the requirement that has been laid down by the Department that there has to be 50% agreement on a commonage. If a farmer is on three commonages, he will have to get 50% agreement on each commonage. He must have a plan for each commonage and he might end up with three planners and his own planner involved in a GLAS plan.
Significant issues have been raised in hill areas about the consequences of these negotiations not only on GLAS but on other payments in the context of eligibility of land. Will land in a natural state with heather and so on growing on it continue to be considered eligible? There is a major issue about ferns which are difficult to eradicate on mountains. There would be a big objection if we started to use helicopters to spray the mountains to deal with the fern issue. They grow on dry land, in particular. We need a steer on the land eligibility issue.
Hill farmers put forward 12 points. How many of these have been agreed with Brussels? Is the difficulty with the Department? The farmers who met the officials in Brussels thought that much of the difficulty relating to hill commonages emanated from the Department and not the Commission. We need clarification on that.
There is another issue of major concern, which could colour the thinking in Brussels. I attended a briefing at which departmental officials categorically stated that undergrazing was a major challenge on hills. I accept there are areas but they are predominantly where the Department and the Department of the Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht forced farmers to destock. In other words, it has nothing to do with farmers being unwilling to put sheep on the hills. Following persistent questioning and going to the Ceann Comhairle, it was admitted that the Minister could not identify any areas of undergrazing because he does not know where they are.

I refer to the 266 points we were circulated with in advance of the meeting. Has this made a difference to the substance of the rural development plan in the responses sought from the Commission? What impact will it make on the schemes in the plan? I am concerned about GLAS and I have similar issues to Deputy Ó Cuív. I am particularly interested in the 12 point plan submitted by the hill farmers to the Minister about the operation of GLAS. What discussions has the Department had with the Commission on the scheme? Has the Minister submitted proposals to amend the qualifying criteria for the rural development plan? Will any of those points be taken on board by the Department in the roll-out of the RDP and GLAS?

The Minister referred to issues under discussion such as the control and prioritisation of expenditure, including the issue of maximum payments. The Commission has highlighted that the maximum payments under GLAS are not justified. Will the Minister explain what is meant by that and what implications that could have for the scheme?

How many of the 266 points are outstanding and need to be addressed? Perhaps we could focus on them, particularly in respect of GLAS. There is a particular issue in south Kildare. Malt and barley growers need to be covered by the scheme but the clock is ticking on in the context of sowing etc. Is that on the agenda?

I am interested in No. 38. The position of Irish farmers as price takers is identified as a weakness and supporting producer groups is referenced. Has that been addressed?

I am interested in the identification of farmers as price takers. We are all aware of the crisis that occurred in the beef sector towards the end of last year, which the Department did nothing to assist with.

Thankfully, the markets are improving slightly. What will be done to improve the position of farmers and, in particular the bargaining power of farmers, given that the Department continues to stymie live exports so that effectively farmers are at the mercy of processors in Ireland?

On question No. 36, community-based rural development is identified as a strength but it is not clear in the strategy how this strength will be built on in the new Leader model. What will be done in this regard? Is there any movement towards implementing some of the Commission for the Economic Development of Rural Areas, CEDRA, proposals and, in particular, what are the pilot areas in this regard?

What offers a lot of hope in terms of in rural development is the many small food companies-processors such as cheese-makers. However cheese-makers who want to make cheese from non-pasturised milk are under increasing pressure from the Department which, again, appears to be determined to protect the major players. I appreciate that the reputation of the Irish dairy sector is of paramount importance but we cannot hammer one sector to protect another. The level of testing carried out on organic and non-pasturised cheese producers in Ireland is unparalleled anywhere in the Union. Cheese producers in Ireland have to compete in their own country with products from other European countries which are susceptible to less testing.

With regard to GLAS, the issue that arises is how it will work in special protection areas and, in particular, special areas of conservation and hen harrier areas. Will being in a hen harrier area in and of itself be a qualifying criteria? In other words, will such farmers be limited to the maximum amount for non-SAC and SPA farmers or will they get an additional allowance because of the additional disadvantage they are under because they are also in SAC and SPA areas?

A feature of the previous rural development programme was the de minimis rule. I am unable to recall the relevant treaty. The de minimis rule does not have to be applied to heritage and cultural projects. Although not legally obliged to do so, Ireland decided to apply this rule in its own rural development programme. I note from the July submission that no similar proposal was made to do that this time. However, I would like some reassurance from the Minister that the de minimis rule will not be applied where it is not required to be applied, namely, in respect of cultural projects. I am thinking in particular of projects in rural Ireland of a cultural variety in respect of which many bodies are unable to apply for funding because of the de minimis rule, when this need not be the case.

I thank the Minister for his attendance here today. As time is short, I will be brief. I am hugely interested in the GLAS. It is important that farmers, particularly farmers in the hill and commonage areas, are eligible for the GLAS, particularly those farmers who, as stated earlier by other speakers, have lost income under REPs and were not eligible in the past for AEOS.

The Leader programme is also very important. Will it be rolled out by the Leader companies or the councils? The Minister might elaborate on how it is proposed to move forward in that regard. Question No. 149 deals with the beef genomics scheme and whether it will fit. This, too, is an important issue in that many people are looking forward to qualifying under that scheme for the €100 on the first ten cows and €80 in respect of the remainder of them.

I will try not to reiterate what has been already said. I echo most of the points made in regard to the GLAS. Most of the hill farmers in my area believe it is unworkable. What changes have been made to try to alleviate that situation? I am particularly interested in the Leader scenario. I think the Minister travelled to Brussels on the same day as the delegation on Leader who went there to raise numerous issues around the new developments in that programme which appear to be moving away from what had been heralded as the best way of delivering Leader across Europe, about which they are very unhappy.

Perhaps the Minister would clarify where the Leader programme is going at this stage.

The companies concerned also raised with us issues pertaining to changes in the rules midway in the previous programme, which left them with financial liabilities they had not envisaged. In other words, because the amount of money allocated to them had been decreased, the amount of administrative funding available to them had equally decreased and, because they had planned over a seven-year programme for the administration of those programmes, a number of the companies will be in a precarious financial situation at the end of the existing programme. I would welcome more clarification from the Minister on the vision of Government for the Leader programme and if we have moved back to the previous model so heralded in Europe.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate. I am primarily interested in taking up the issue of GLAS with the Minister and how it will impact in terms of the ability of farmers who have commonage to become part of that scheme. In Donegal, 30% of active farmers have commonage land attached to their farms. In some cases, the farmers have commonage rights in respect of two, three or more commonages. There is grave concern, which is well-placed, in regard to the requirement for a mandatory grazing scheme and how this will impact on the ability of such farmers to join this scheme. When the scheme was first introduced, 80% of all farmers were required to sign up to it. That 80% figure was higher than the take-up of farmers in the county who signed up to previous schemes such as REPS and AEOS. It was not achievable because fewer than 80% of farmers had signed up to previous schemes. Despite this, the Minister proposed requiring 80% of them to sign up to the new GLAS. The Minister has since reduced the 80% requirement to 50%.

There was never a requirement of 80% sign-up. However, I will explain later.

It was the initial proposal. I recall raising it in the Dáil with the Minister of State, Deputy Tom Hayes, who at the time was sticking very clearly to his guns on the need for an 80% sign-up.

Given the practicalities in terms of how this is to be achieved and the red tape and time involved, it will not work on the ground. Unless the Minister changes his approach, many farmers will not be able to participate in this scheme. I know that the door is open in Brussels on this issue. I believe the Minister is taking the wrong approach, resulting in many of the farmers who availed of and depended on this in the past not being able to do so in the future.

On the Leader programme, is it proposed to continue to provide grants of up to €500,000 in respect of non-commercial projects? I acknowledge this is also a matter for another Department but it is one that also comes within the remit of the Minister's Department. I would welcome a response from the Minister on that issue.

I concur with some of the previous speakers that it is a sad day when NGOs are the ones providing information to the people involved in farming throughout the country. Many of these NGOs do not own even an acre of land. I have seen before the provision by Europe of information to people it believes are involved while those really involved do not get it.

On commonage, the point must be made to Europe that there must be a return to the situation whereby people can singularly apply for GLAS. This issue must be sorted. Also, because of the manner in which the Department is going about setting up this scheme, if something goes wrong down the road in two, three or four years, it will be the fault of the farmers. Many of the problems that have arisen, including destocking, have nothing to do with farmers.

On the disadvantaged areas scheme, the name of which is to be changed, will funding under this scheme be increased to what it was a few years ago or will it remain the same?

If we are going to support family farms, the funding will have to go up to what it was originally four or five years ago. As stated by others on rural development, the money in the Leader programme, from what I understand, is going through the councils. We must ensure that this is done properly to ensure that it goes right down to the heart of rural Ireland. Is the hill farmers' 12-point plan, referred to by Deputies, being adhered to?

There is one other thing, which I have discussed with some of those present. There are farmers in a situation where the double payment cannot work. They have small farms of ten to 15 hectares. These farmers cannot avail of GLAS and be involved in organic farming at the same time. Is there a separate scheme that will leave them involved in organic farming? We have to protect the people who have been in organic farming down through the years. The reality is that they will move out of organic farming because they will go into GLAS. Are we doing something about this? It must be remembered that it will take two years to be recognised in organic farming again. Are we doing something to resolve that situation for the farmer with ten to 18 ha.?

There will be a meeting in the next few weeks on what we call the forgotten farmers. These are farmers - young guys - who started off farming in 2002 or 2003 aged 20 or 21 and who have few or no payments. They are the forgotten farmers. We are trying to encourage youngsters into the industry. These farmers are grouping together and fair play to them. I have got word that, in the coming weeks, they will bring to the attention of all Deputies that they cannot live on what is being offered to them. Is the Department going to look after them when it comes to payments? We can talk all we want about aspirations for young people in farming, but they will not stay in it if we do not do look after them.

Many of the summary points have been identified in the questions and points made. After the meeting, it would be useful to get a breakdown of the measures, whether it is co-operation or otherwise, and a breakdown of the outstanding points and those resolved. In the meantime, am I right that members wish for the Minister to give a quick response to the points raised in the time that is left?

On the understanding that this is only a preliminary response.

That is what I said.

We need an opportunity in the next ten days if it is going to be sorted out by the middle of February in the manner that we have outlined.

That is the general agreement.

I will deal with some of the issues that have been raised, perhaps starting from the back and moving forward. Deputy Fitzmaurice raised a number of issues. Areas of natural constraint, ANC, payments, as they will now be called, and which were, essentially, disadvantaged areas scheme, DAS, payments, will be maintained as they are. There will be no further cuts. Almost everyone who is farming in ANCs will see the beneficial effects of convergence or redistribution of Pillar 1 payments. They will see their single farm payment increasing. They will do better out of this CAP than they did out of the last one.

There are no forgotten farmers in this scheme. If a person is a farmer in his or her 20s, he or she will get a top-up payment on his or her single farm payment. He or she will also benefit from convergence if he or she has a low single farm payment. He or she will get a 60% targeted agricultural modernisation scheme, TAMS, grant payment, rather than 40%, which is what everyone else will get. He or she will benefit from a whole series of tax changes made over recent years. There has been specific and positive discrimination in favour of young farmers in this rural development programme and in the broader CAP agreement. I will argue this with anyone. This was mainly driven by Ireland because we are very conscious of the fact that we do not have enough young farmers owning land and making the decisions on this land. The idea that there is not a new generation interested in farming is absolute nonsense.

(Interruptions).

The Deputy has had his say; now I am going to respond.

We have more young men and women in agricultural colleges now than we have ever had before. There is a huge interest in getting into agriculture and it is my job to ensure that they are not disappointed in terms of the supports that are available for them.

What if they have been farming more than five years?

In terms of the definition of "young farmer", in order to get a young farmer top-up, the applicant must have started farming in the past five years or be under the age of 40. The reason for this, if members wish to listen rather than shake their heads, is-----

I will shake my head if I want to.

-----Ireland was one of a relatively small number of countries that wanted to make sure that we had mandatory measures to support young farmers. To get this agreement, we had to agree a definition of "young farmer" with the Commission. This is someone who has come into farming relatively recently and who is young. The definition is in the regulation. We cannot simply change it to suit different case studies. Macra na Feirme and other organisations were right in the middle of the negotiations on supporting young farmers and have been hugely supportive of the measures introduced, which were not there at all in previous rural development programmes in the way they are now, which is on a mandatory basis across the European Union.

A number of people mentioned GLAS. GLAS is an environmental scheme which, when fully up and running, will be spending in excess of €250 million a year on farmers throughout the country. It will be about €260 million a year. Hopefully, we will have up to 50,000 farmers in it. In terms of the back and forth in the negotiations with the Commission, most of the time has been spent on trying to get GLAS right. This has been to ensure that regardless of what kind of farmer a person is, whether in commonage, dairy farming, arable farming, malting barley, or beef or sheep, he or she will be able to avail of GLAS. We will prioritise access to GLAS for certain categories of farmers. Farmers in special areas of conservation, SACs, and in commonage areas are getting priority access to GLAS, rather than the opposite.

We are looking to change the original proposal on the basis of conversations we have had politically and on the basis of conversations we have had with farmers who are concerned about the implications in accessing GLAS for their own activities. That is why I have said openly that we have been advocating successfully for farmers to be able to apply individually for GLAS. The original proposal, from which the Deputy is getting the 80% figure, was made when there was a suggestion that fewer farmers would be coming into GLAS for the first year. We had to look at tiers 1, 2 and 3 in terms of priority qualification to get into GLAS. It was in that context that the 80% figure was mentioned for priority tier 1 access. However, there was never a restriction of 80% on everyone coming into GLAS and this would not have been the case. We have looked to change that to ensure that the figure of 50% of active farmers is only a guideline. Farmers in commonage areas who cannot get 50% of the active farmers on those commonages to sign up to GLAS will still be able to apply, the planner who will be putting the plan together will raise the issue with the Department and we will have an implementation group which will try to work with farmers to get the numbers up. However, we will not exclude farmers under the 50% rule any longer. We are responding to what people are saying. There was also an issue around farmers' concern that they would not be able to agree to a planner collectively. If that is the case, the Department is agreed that it will appoint a planner to put a basic commonage GLAS plan in place for that particular commonage.

Much of what people raised with us has resulted in us changing approach and negotiating and renegotiating this with the Commission to try to get it across the line. There is no view coming from this Department that anyone should be discriminated against, particularly people in commonage and SACs.

They are being prioritised, and we have spent more time with those groups of people and changed our approach to try to accommodate the concerns they have expressed. I do not see how we could have been more reasonable than that and, hopefully, the outcome will become evident in the next few weeks.

I need to get more detail from Deputy McNamara on the de minimis rule because I understand it relates to state aid rules in terms of being able to spend and is not directly related to the CAP. Maybe we could clarify it afterwards and I will try to get an answer. For the first time, there will be a payment for farmers who have their land designated as SACs and who are subject to restrictions as a result. While small numbers of people were receiving payments for hen harrier designations, only a small number of farmers were lucky enough to get into the scheme. The majority of farmers affected by hen harrier designation receive no extra payments. We are correcting this and incorporating into the GLAS scheme a recognition that certain designations limit a farmer's activity and income potential and that there needs to be compensation for it. This is in response to conversations I had with the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Heather Humphreys, and the former Minister, Deputy Deenihan. We are trying to deal with the SAC designation areas by prioritising those people and paying them for restrictions that are already in place on their land and for which they did not receive payments before.

The Minister of State, Deputy Ann Phelan, who has moved from my Department to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, is responsible for CEDRA and Leader. She is going to Brussels to meet the Commissioner this week or early next week with a view to trying to progress some of the outstanding issues around Leader. They are making good progress on it. The structures and issues of Leader are being decided and negotiated by her Department.

While I note Deputy McNamara's comment on the beef issues last year, I do not accept that the Department was not active on it. We worked overtime trying to make the beef forum work. It worked and we got a good outcome late last year, which all the farming organisations signed up to and welcomed. Live exports increased significantly last year and we are doing nothing to stymie them, but are trying to facilitate them.

The issue of beef genomics is difficult, but we are making good progress. Fintan O'Brien and the team have spent much time explaining the thinking behind it. Beef genomics has been sold as an income support for beef farmers - for example, €80 or €100 per head. However, the beef genomics project is designed to be a climate change measure, using breeding to improve the growth performance of animals so they can grow faster and, therefore, be slaughtered earlier, thus releasing less methane in their lifetimes. This is the main benefit. Beef genomics is all about better breeding and performance. However, farmers need to change practices to achieve it, and there is a cost to it, which is where the beef genomics payment comes in. We have made good progress on beef genomics and have gone from a situation in which the Commission had concerns about it to one in which it understands the thinking behind it and supports it. Some details still need to be finalised.

Deputy Heydon raised the issue of malting barley and GLAS, and there is an issue around green cover and equivalence, about which we are having an ongoing negotiation in terms of cover crops. A farmer growing malting barley is predominantly growing spring barley, and there is an issue regarding green cover over the winter months which needs ongoing negotiation with the Commission, on which we are making some progress.

Deputy Pringle raised the issue of the changes that will be made to the schemes. This is evident in my comments on GLAS. It is a response to the ongoing conversation and contact we have had with farming organisations, individuals and politicians concerned. The maximum payment is one of the outstanding issues. We have made our case very clearly to the Commission, which is that if it wants 50,000 farmers in GLAS it must place some priority on how much money it gives to individual farmers. If there is no maximum payment, and payments for certain farmers increase, fewer farmers can enter the scheme. It is a simple mathematical sum. Although the Commission understands our position in terms of prioritising numbers over payments, we are having a continuing conversation about whether there should be a maximum payment cut-off or whether payments should be tiered down after a certain amount. There is no mystery. It is a question of trying to get as many farmers in as possible and ensuring that most of them get a decent payment.

Deputy Ó Cuív raised the handing over of information, and I do not want to overblow the issue. It was a Commission document and the Commission expressed a view that it would like to know if it was given to anybody. I do not know how it got to an NGO, but it did. Since then, it has been available to everybody. There was no deliberate decision to release the document to an NGO and not to parliamentarians, regardless of what unfolded.

We must be careful about undergrazing. We have anecdotal evidence from our on-the-spot inspections around the country that there are problems with undergrazing, which we need to address. The way to manage the majority of commonage land to keep it in agricultural condition is to graze it. Addressing undergrazing of commonage will be the role of GLAS. The fact that we have not had a dedicated study of undergrazing across commonages does not mean we do not have good anecdotal evidence. We should be careful what we wish for. Let us not create a major problem for ourselves by over-studying something. We have a reasonably good feel for the issues in commonage areas. GLAS can deal with many of the issues in a constructive way that rewards farmers for making the right decisions, working with a planner and the Department, and we should pursue it and make it work.

The Minister said that if commonage farmers cannot agree on a GLAS planner, the Department will appoint one. Does that mean the Department will pay the planner?

No. The cost of a planner to put the plan together is factored into the payment per hectare, which is calculated on the basis of what it will cost farmers in effort, organisation and change to get a GLAS plan in place and implement it. We have announced this figure and are trying to justify it to the Commission. Were the Department to pay for the plan, the payments to farmers would have to be reduced. Although farmers will have to pay for the plans, if multiple farmers share a commonage, contributing to the cost of a planner who will put a joint plan in place should cost them less than it will for farmers who are not on a commonage and who will have to pay a planner to do an individual GLAS plan.

What about a situation in which only one farmer in a commonage area is participating in GLAS and a commonage plan has to be devised? Will that farmer have to carry the cost of the whole plan for the farmers who may participate subsequently?

No, farmers will not come in subsequently without making a contribution to the cost of the plan. If there is only one active farmer on a commonage - there are rare examples of that - that farmer will, like a person outside a commonage area, have to put a plan in place with a planner and pay for that. Somebody must pay for the planner and that will be either the applicant or applicants working with the planner. Part of their payment is for that.

I now call Deputy Ó Cuív. I must take contributions from members before I move to non-members.

I am under time pressure.

I ask members to be brief. I will take supplementary questions from Deputies Ó Cuív, McNamara, Fitzmaurice and McConalogue and will take a question from Deputy Healy-Rae, but I cannot allow people to make opening statements.

I have specific questions. When we look at the document the Minister issued in the summer, it is clear that the only upland conservation measure was the one in tier one, with none in tier two. The document states that the uplands conservation action will require that farmers form a grazing association and apply as a collective, with at least 80% of the farmers on the commonage signing up. Deputy Pringle spoke about this, and all the documentation produced by the Minister backs up his interpretation. Therefore, it is important that it is admitted that this is what the document stated.

The Minister said that farmers - for example, those with hen harrier land - would get paid for SAC restrictions. I imagine those watching that on the web were rubbing their hands with glee and saying they would get a lot of money. However, will the Minister clarify whether this applies to restrictions on activities over and above the traditional farming methods used on those farms before they were designated? Are we talking about farming restrictions or are we talking about what the farmers have been talking about, namely, compensation for the fact that they cannot get a forestry grant or will not get permission to have the land forested or get planning permission for wind turbines on that land? Which criteria are being used by Brussels to measure the possible compensation farmers will get for designation of, for example, hen harrier land? Farmers want evidence of what they will get on this practical issue.

I ask the Deputy to be as quick as he can.

These are specific questions and I have waited two months to put them. I asked for this meeting two months ago.

We were not supposed to have discussion here. I am trying to facilitate everybody.

The evidence for undergrazing is anecdotal and, therefore, the argument is not evidence-based. The Minister says there is undergrazing right across the country. Would it be possible for the Minister to indicate to us the areas in which this is happening and to compare this to the restrictions in those areas under the commonage framework plans, so that we can have some measure of whether the undergrazing is farmer or Department-led?

The Minister spoke about the beef genomics scheme, and in his negotiations with Brussels he made great play of saying that this was about reducing methane output. Has Europe required that we back up this statement, or will it become a condition of the genomics scheme that farmers with high-methane-output breeds, which might be good for producing beef, must change to low-methane-output breeds? In other words, if this is about climate change and if the justification for the measure is a reduction in methane emissions, will Brussels look, as it normally does, for its pound of flesh from the genomic scheme? That seems to be the logical conclusion.

My last question-----

Please make it brief.

I am sorry, but I have to leave shortly. I cannot stay much longer, as I made clear at the start.

I appreciate that.

The Minister says his target for the GLAS is for it to open in February. That is a month and a half behind the original target. The Minister also talked about the scheme commencing for farmers in October. Are we now talking about mid-November? Does this effectively mean there will be no payment under GLAS to farmers in 2015?

I have two short supplementary questions. I understand farmers are required to be compensated for losses due to designation of their lands. Will farmers be compensated for their loss in respect of each hectare of their farming land that is designated, or will there be a maximum number of hectares? My understanding of GLAS is that there is a maximum number of hectares in respect of which a farmer will receive payment. Will a different or higher number of hectares be allowable for farmers who have designated areas in SACs or SPAs, or will they be subject to the same maximum as farmers who have no land in SACs or SPAs?

The Minister referred to active farmers and commonages. The Minister may recall that I raised in the Dáil an example from Wales in which farmers who had land in a commonage but were not active farmers in the commonage, although they were active farmers elsewhere, were allowed to enter schemes. There are a number of scenarios in Ireland in which people have a share of a commonage, but for the benefit of the commonage do not exercise that share by agreement with other farmers, although they are active elsewhere. Are these farmers to be disallowed from entering GLAS?

Earlier I mentioned farmers who already engage in organic farming on ten, 12, 14 or 15 hectares. In the current situation, these farmers will move straight away to GLAS because the payment is higher. Is there a separate system? Perhaps the Department is working on something to resolve the situation, and I will accept that.

When I talk about young or forgotten farmers, I am talking about farmers who were 18, 19 or 20 in 2002 and 2003. They are still young people at the age of 32 or 33. I agree that their payment will rise from €700, perhaps to €2,500. However, down the road they cannot survive on this. I understand there are between 4,000 and 5,000 of these farmers. These are the people who must decide now whether to move away from agriculture.

In the effort to ensure good farming practice, currently there are farmers, particularly farmers of hilly land, who are clearing their land of rocks and other impediments. What system is being put in place for these farmers? Will farmers get paid as they were paid in past years, or must every rock be counted and removed?

In regard to young farmers and to the exclusion of those who have been farming for more than five years, let me give an example of a young man of 29 who has been farming since he was 21. He receives a single farm payment of €70 per hectare, yet he is a full-time farmer who has invested significantly in his farm. He has been waiting for this process, hoping he would be able to avail of the top-up, the reserve or the targeted agricultural modernisation scheme, TAMS, but he is excluded. Is there any hope for such people of being able to benefit from this scheme?

On the issue of commonage farmers who are coming out of an AEOS at different stages over the next year or so, what will happen if, for example, only two out of seven owners of the commonage wish to sign up to the new GLAS? If more want to sign up, but come out of AEOS at a different stage, must they all wait until they have all exited the AEOS and then join GLAS together, which will cause a delay in the waiting time for some farmers to enter the scheme?

I thank the Minister and his officials for the work they have done over recent months in regard to the price of beef. They did significant work behind the scenes and I thank them for that.

With regard to the cost of plans, the Minister was saying costs might not be too high, but I can quote figures of €300 and €400 per plan. That is an awful lot of money for a small farmer, as the Minister knows. I again thank him for his efforts in recent months.

Deputy Michael McNamara might have a different point of view.

I think €4 in the case of quality-assured cattle is not a lot, but perhaps I am wrong.

That is for quality-assured cattle that are out of spec.

They still incur the cost of providing for quality assurance.

There is one question Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív posed on eligibility that was not answered. It has to do with areas of natural constraint and GLAS. There is a gross and a net figure and part of the difference between the two might be due to having areas like an orchard or a grove of trees that are not considered to be agricultural land but part of an environmental feature. They could be included in areas of natural constraint or, as in the case of commonages, where land needs to be improved. Also, regarding GLAS and particularly plans for commonages, the objective is to have land in a better condition. That land could be identified as being part of the overall area as long as the objective was to have it in good agricultural condition.

The Minister mentioned the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht in the context of commonages. In the area from which I come, a lot of land is leased from the OPW which currently does not rent land for more than a ten-month period. To qualify for GLAS, a five-year rental agreement is needed. Is it possible for progress to be made on that issue? I have written to the two Ministers concerned, Deputies Simon Coveney and Heather Humphreys, on the issue.

I will have to come back to the Chairman on it.

Let me ask about one technical issue. I spent a few of my early years in the west trying to control ferns on hill land Today, if someone tried to use the methods we used, he or she would probably have the National Parks and Wildlife Service stating he or she could not do so. It is a case of double jeopardy - one Department is stating farmers cannot bring land back into the condition about which the Chairman has spoken, while another is stating it is going to eliminate huge swathes of the driest land on which the ferns grow. This is going to have a massive effect on farmers' payments. A lot of farmers are not going to gain as much as they anticipated because their number of hectares has been dramatically reduced in recent years.

I understand what the Deputy is saying, but it is the Commission that decides what is and what is not eligible. The rules are clear. The Commission audits the results of inspections. We might not like everything it asks and whether we like it, but the single farm payment is 100% EU money and there are rules and regulations that come with support systems. It is not just a question of a hand-out with no strings attached. We are trying to be as flexible and fair as we can in areas where there are problems with land eligibility, with which people are very familiar as a result of the issues with the LIPIS with which we have been dealing in recent months.

I accept that there was a figure of 80% in the initial set of regulations, in the draft RDP we were proposing, in respect of tier 1. That is why we were asking more of the people concerned in order to guarantee that they would be first in.

There would have been lots of farmers coming into GLAS after tier one that would not have had an 80% requirement. Subsequently, we met people and took account of the point the Deputy is raising here today, which is valid - that on certain commonages, getting 80% of farmers to participate may cause difficulties. We looked at a figure of 50% and then at 50% active farmers, and now the 50% is simply a guideline figure. There will be commonages that have, say, two out of seven active farmers on those commonages deciding that GLAS is for them and they want to be part of it, and there will be a planner trying to put that together. I would imagine that the majority of commonage farmers will be looking at coming into GLAS. Why would they not? It will mean signing up to farming in a way that is consistent with a GLAS plan for the commonage, which is not going to be overly onerous but will require people to make a contribution to an overall stocking rate on that land. Farmers will be able to apply individually and work with the planner, and if there are problems with delivery, they can also be penalised individually.

We looked at the Welsh example after the Deputy raised it in the Dáil. It has a lot of strings attached. My understanding is that the farmers have to apply collectively and are punished collectively if they do not deliver on the plans. We are trying to move away from that obligation for a collective agreement in Ireland. It is quite a different proposal. The Deputy cannot have it both ways. He cannot have the benefits of a collective agreement while not actually wanting a collective agreement. Farmers have made it very clear to me that they want to apply for GLAS individually and we have been trying to facilitate that.

Regarding the limits on payments on SACs, it is important to say that 377 farmers got a compensation package for the restrictions linked to hen harrier protection. We could well be supporting ten times that number in the future. The one thing I made absolutely clear at the start of this process is that we are not going to favour people on the basis of having been lucky enough to get into a scheme in the past, in terms of trying to continue those payments while excluding everybody else. Everyone has to have the opportunity to apply and have their application assessed.

In terms of the timing, which Deputy Ó Cuív understandably-----

The Minister did not answer the question I asked about compensation for restrictions-----

Yes. I will come to that.

The Minister has jumped on to the timing issue.

Will people who are in SAC and SPA areas be subject to a maximum number of hectares?

It is a maximum payment, which effectively has limitations in terms of the number of hectares a farmer can get payments for, yes. We are discussing this concept of having a cap with the Commission at the moment - whether or not it is appropriate or whether there should be tiered payments above a certain figure. That is still in play. The issues around what the farmer is actually paid for will partly be determined by a threat response plan that is being put in place by NPWS. It is currently working on the effectiveness of measures to date in certain SACs, particularly those relating to the hen harrier scheme, and they will be making recommendations as to what should be done in the future to get a better environmental dividend in terms of maintaining breeding pairs of hen harriers and so on. SAC plans will be put in place in that context, and the restrictions that are linked to that will be compensated for through GLAS. There will be a discussion as to whether there should be a ceiling, and if the ceiling should be higher than for people who are outside SACs. That is yet to be determined.

In terms of timing, if we can open GLAS for the start of applications somewhere between the middle and the end of February, I would still be hopeful that we can work to the timetable I committed to last year, which was to have people enter GLAS in October so they can get payments for the last three months of the year.

That has always been the target. I have been up-front about this with Opposition parties and farming organisations. Even with the later start point for approval and opening, we want to try to work the system so that we can still operate to the October deadline. In our Estimates we have enough money to facilitate that, and will do everything we can to deliver it.

Deputy Fitzmaurice raised the issue of organic farms, which I will ask Mr. Dillon to deal with in a moment. The problem is that we cannot pay people twice for doing the same thing. That is a fundamental issue for the Commission. We are trying to be flexible and find ways to get around that so we can support people who are on an organic scheme but want to get into an environmental scheme.

Deputy Healy-Rae mentioned costs. They will be shared in the case of commonage. The cost of putting a plan together is factored into the payment.

I cannot recall who asked about moving from AEOS into GLAS. We are trying to facilitate people who are currently in AEOS and want to get into GLAS because the payments are better. They will be able to do that at the start and will not have to wait until the end of GLAS. They will be able to switch from one to the other and join with everybody else who may want to join with them in the case of a commonage area. The payment increases significantly when one moves from AEOS to GLAS. People seem to forget about the positive decisions we made.

With regard to young farmers who are looking for supports, many will be eligible for a top-up payment on a single farm payment coming from sheep grassland. They may be able to get into the beef genomics scheme or receive payments in respect of discussion groups. They will benefit in terms of the single farm payment from convergence. They may get an islands payment if they are farming in the islands. They will also get an ANC if they are in a disadvantaged area. There are six different payments for which they could potentially be eligible. When one adds all of them together, it can be quite a support package.

There is no proposal to restrict herd types for farmers in beef genomics. That is a non-issue. We are trying to get better breeding programmes in place so that beef farmers can breed better, get animals that grow faster and perform better and allow them, in time, to be more profitable. In the meantime, they will be facilitating the taking of DNA samples and so on, which will cost time and money. They need a recognition payment for that, which is where the payment of €80 or €100 comes from. All of the coverage of this scheme in Ireland has been about income support for the beef sector. The Commission was initially very negative on that because it would say it is not about income support but climate change, and it is putting European money into it. People need to be convinced that this is a climate change measure rather than an income support measure, because there are other ways to provide income support in terms of taking money from direct payments. We have decided not to go down that road for many good reasons.

We have won the argument in principle, thanks to people such as Mr. O'Brien and Mr. Dillon, in terms of explaining why this a good climate change measure. In fact, other countries are also examining it as an innovative way of improving beef production and reducing the emissions footprint.

I asked a question about the discussions with the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht on the longer-term agreements between national parks and people who farm on those lands. They cannot qualify for GLAS on a ten- or 11-month arrangement, and experience difficulties as a result.

I will have to come back to the Chairman on that. I do not want to waffle that answer.

I only asked one question, so I hope I do not get a waffle of an answer.

No; I will send a proper written response to that.

What about the genomics scheme?

We are prioritising getting GLAS open as soon as we can, but we need agreement in principle from the Commission that we can take the risk to do that, knowing that a letter of comfort is on the way. That is what we will try to do to get GLAS open between the middle and end of February, realistically. We then hope to be able to open the other schemes on the back of a letter of comfort about a month later. We should be rolling out schemes within the coming weeks, which is probably ahead of the expectations of many people who have been following this process intently, if I am being truthful.

Mr. Dillon was to answer a specific question on organics.

Mr. Paul Dillon

We fully understand the point made by Deputy Fitzmaurice. An organic farmer with a small acreage who wants to switch over to GLAS in the morning can qualify for low-input permanent pasture or traditional haymeadows actions under GLAS. On the face of it, it seems as though it would be very simple for him or her to leave organics and move straight across without suffering any loss. We do not want that to happen or for there to be leakage from the organic sector. At the same time, we want to grow the number of hectares and farmers involved in organic farming, and the outputs from them. We are seriously considering how we can tweak the comparative rates between them to make sure we do not have leakage and get more of the larger farmers into organics. A balancing act is taking place.

I have a very important question.

I ask the Deputy to be very quick. I am really conscious that the Minister has to leave and I have a couple of things I want to say.

I have a very brief question.

You are extending the meeting.

If I am on non-commonage land and I am in AEOS, I can see off a final two years in AEOS and then get another five years on GLAS, a total of seven years. We were told at meetings that anybody who is on commonage and then joins GLAS, and sees out the final two years in an AEOS scheme, will only get three years' payments. Is that still the case?

It will be based on a GLAS plan for that commonage area, which will essentially be-----

I would like a "Yes" or "No" answer because the Minister is in a hurry.

It will be put in a five-year plan. I ask the Deputy not to scare people. I am trying to explain how these things work. The basis of payments in GLAS is on the basis of a GLAS plan, which is a five-year plan. People who enter into that plan for a commonage area are signing up to a five-year GLAS plan. People currently in AEOS then have to decide whether they want to be part of the new five-year plan or stick with the one they have.

The answer to the question is-----

Sorry, Deputy Ó Cuív------

I thank the Minister for the long-winded answer, but the answer is "Yes".

We could review it in the same way as REPS, where we ended up with four REPS plans. In a couple of years' time we may have GLAS 2.

There will be a GLAS 2 because we want to take in a very considerable number of farmers in GLAS 1. Ultimately, we hope to have 50,000 farmers in GLAS, but not all in one go. There will have to be a second round of GLAS.

I thank everybody. Once we got over our initial misunderstanding this meeting has proved to be worthwhile. When everybody, in good faith, wants to sit down and have an open discussion we can prove that we can do that. I thank the Minister for coming before the committee to explain the programme.

It is important that we recognise the role the officials are playing. In many ways, the work they do is not acknowledged or recognised immediately, but it is apparent. A lot of work has been done on the main points of concern with the Commission. When a new plan is being drafted it is only right and proper that it be properly scrutinised. It is then up to those responsible for drafting the plan to ensure that they are in a position to answer questions to the satisfaction of the people in the Commission. European and Irish taxpayers' money is being spent on this, so it is important that it is spent properly and wisely.

I would like to put on the record this committee's appreciation for the work being done by the officials, and we can all agree on that point. As there is no further business, today's meeting stands adjourned.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.10 p.m until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 29 January 2015.
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