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Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine debate -
Tuesday, 10 Mar 2015

Dairy Sector and Annual Report 2013: Teagasc

We will resume in public session. I welcome from Teagasc Professor Gerry Boyle, director, and Dr. Tom O'Dwyer, head of dairy knowledge transfer. I thank them both for appearing before the committee to discuss the annual report and also the potential difficulties and price volatility facing the dairy sector.

Before we begin I wish to inform the witnesses that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Professor Boyle to make his opening statement.

Professor Gerry Boyle

Ar an gcéad dul síos, táimid an-bhuíoch as ucht an chuiridh a chur an coiste romhainn. Tá súil agam go mbeidh ár gcur i láthair eolasach agus déanfaimid gach iarracht ceisteanna na mball a fhreagairt.

We were very pleased to be invited to present before the committee today. Our presentation is in two parts and I propose to give the entire presentation. The first part will look back on the previous year in terms of achievements in Teagasc and issues arising for the service. Then, as requested by the committee, I will talk a little about the current situation in the dairy sector. We are also happy to answer any questions committee members may have on other issues of concern.

As Deputies and Senators will know, Teagasc is a science-based organisation which endeavours to support innovation in the agrifood sector with a focus on profitability, competitiveness and sustainability. Teagasc has four goals that it strives to implement. First, we have a very clear focus on the competitiveness of the agriculture and food sector, which makes us somewhat different from comparable organisations internationally whose focus on productivity and competitiveness has slipped somewhat. Our second goal is to support sustainable farming and the environment, while our third goal is to promote economic diversification of the rural economy and to enhance the quality of life of people living in rural areas. Finally, we are very conscious of the substantial moneys that the taxpayer grants each year through the Oireachtas grant-in-aid and we aim to deliver value for public money.

The chart included in our submission to the committee is an attempt to summarise what we consider to be the integrated nature of the organisation, where within one organisation we combine research with advisory or extension services and education services. These are intimately related and our goal is to transmit knowledge for the benefit of farmers and Irish food companies. That is why we see it as critically important that the research is complemented by both the extension and education services.

We deliver the various activities through a series of seven programmes: animal and grassland; crops, environment and land use; rural economy and development; food research; education; advisory; and administration and operations. Since the extensive rationalisation that has taken place within Teagasc, we now have a streamlined structure with three key units within the organisation, namely, the research directorate, the knowledge transfer directorate which is split between advisory and education and the operations directorate. It is a constant challenge to maintain coherence and integration, especially between the research and advisory services.

I draw the committee's attention to some important highlights from last year. I am sure many members are already familiar with some of them but it is useful to give a brief reprise nonetheless. We continued to be actively involved in the promotion of genomics in animal breeding. The committee will be aware of the significant developments that have taken place in the dairy sector and the plan is to extend those to the beef sector, which is much more challenging, and to the sheep sector. A major highlight of last year, after a hiatus of a number of years when the soil survey was suspended, was the completion of the national soil survey, thanks to substantial funding support from the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA. That will be a very important resource in the years ahead. We were actively involved in providing scientific verification for Ireland's sustainability credentials. In particular, in conjunction with Bord Bia we have developed the carbon navigator, which is an aid to farmers to farm sustainably from a carbon perspective. Last year, the Government concluded successful CAP negotiations and Teagasc was extensively involved in providing technical advice during that process.

Despite the difficulties in the advisory services that have been well publicised, Teagasc maintained approximately 43,000 paying clients and we are particularly pleased to point out that there were 13,000 farmers involved in discussion groups throughout the country. In the dairy sector alone, approximately 6,000 of the 18,000 farmers in that sector were members of discussion groups which is a substantial proportion. We continued to work very closely with Ireland's food companies and would interact with about 250 companies on an annual basis, in the sense that this involves a transaction with Teagasc. Of course, we also have a lot of interactions of a more informal nature. We also continued to work very closely with a variety of stakeholders in the beef industry through the Better Beef programme. We have also been involved in supporting the national position in regard to the nitrates action programme and climate change policy. We had a very busy year on the education front and we continue to be very busy in this area, mainly in response to the rural development programme and the measures that were directed at young farmers in particular, which resulted in a substantial increase in the numbers taking part in our part-time agricultural programmes.

In terms of the budgetary position, we have provided a chart which illustrates the evolution of Teagasc's total expenditure from 2008. The most noticeable change is the significant reduction in payroll expenditure. On foot of the implementation of the employment control framework and the moratorium on staffing, the pay bill has reduced by about €26 million over that period. Pension expenditure in recent years has been around the €40 million mark. Unusually for a State organisation, the Teagasc pension bill is paid out of the grant-in-aid and is a substantial component of that.

The most variable element, and the most challenging on a year-to-year basis, is non-pay expenditure. It is important to note that if we were to strip pensions from our expenditure, Teagasc generates some 40% of the remaining expenditure from activities which do not come under the grant-in-aid component. This would include fees from the advisory services, which come to some €11 million per annum. We also have had significant successes on the research front in regard to the winning of competitive tenders and so on.

On the staffing front, as members will see from the slide, there was very little change in the numbers between 2001 and 2009. However, with the imposition of the public sector recruitment embargo, we saw a substantial reduction to the end of last year of the order of 25% across the whole organisation. That reduction was more acute in the advisory services because of the age distribution of staff. The Teagasc map has changed quite radically in recent years in that we have rationalised our office structure substantially. That process is now virtually complete with the exception of the Kinsealy site, which we are in the process of closing and relocating to Ashtown. We hope to dispose of the Kinsealy site in the next year or so. We are down to 52 advisory offices around the country and four colleges which we own and manage on behalf of the State. We also subvent substantially three private agricultural colleges and we have seven research centres.

As I indicated, the largest and most challenging adjustment in staff has been in the area of advisory services. The chart shows the extent of the reduction, particularly from 2008 or 2009 onwards. Remarkably, we have managed to maintain our paying client numbers at in or around 45,000 despite a reduction in front-line advisory staff numbers from around the 400 mark in 2008 to the current figure of 235, a fall of some 32% over the period. There is significant variation around the country, with staff problems more acute in some areas than others. We have particular challenges in Cork, Meath, Mayo, Tipperary, Galway, Clare and Kerry-Limerick, and impending difficulties in some other counties as staff plan to retire in the next couple of years.

On the education front, our staff complement now is 93 or 94, which includes teachers and technician staff to support those teachers. Nonetheless, despite the very difficult staffing circumstances, we have managed to maintain substantial enrolment in our colleges. I mentioned earlier that there is a significant influx of students this year and will be in the coming years because of the rural development programme. We planned to take in an additional 1,000 students in the coming years through distance and part-time education in our regional centres. In fact, based on queries to date, we estimate this figure will be significantly exceeded within the next year or so as the message goes out to young farmers about the significant benefits attached to enrolling in education. However, there are significant staffing shortages across all colleges. We were fortunate last year, on foot of a decision by Government, to be able to take on a large number of contract lecturers to cope with the additional demand. That certainly has helped the situation. We also secured five new additional posts, which have helped substantially to ease the burden in the colleges.

On the research side, we have a smaller number of permanent researchers. We expect those permanent researchers to supervise PhD students and win external research tenders, which enables them to employ highly qualified young graduates on a contract basis. As the slide shows, in terms of a metric of performance, publications output continues to advance and stands at about three publications per year in top international journals. Of course, this is only a crude indicator at one level. We take the view that if our scientists are not publishing in international journals, then the quality of the advice that can be garnered from their knowledge will not be up to acceptable levels. However, as in other sectors, we are facing significant shortages on the research front right across the organisation.

I will conclude this section of the presentation by highlighting some of the challenges and opportunities for Teagasc at this time. We have never experienced more intensive demand for our services than we have in recent years, from both farms and processing. I will refer presently to the situation in regard to dairy farms, where there is growing demand from farmers for support in planning expansion and also from the processing side. As processors gear up to process the additional milk, in particular, there has been a significant demand for research in processing. I already mentioned the challenge we face in regard to staffing. We hope that shortage will be alleviated by the implementation of a spending cap rather an employment cap, but it has not happened yet.

We are looking very carefully at investment for our infrastructural needs. Up to last year, we managed to sell off several valuable assets, which helped us to make necessary investment. We have now come to the end of that process and must find other ways to fund our capital programme. I referred to the exceptional demand for education and the Teagasc green certificate in the past year or so, and we expect that demand to increase, as I indicated, in the next couple of years. In the past year, we took a major step in trying to respond to the demand for a green low-carbon agri-environment options scheme, GLAS, service. To that end, we have entered into a strategic alliance with Farm Relief Services. In the area of food processing, we have committed a substantial increase in investment to Moorepark Technology Limited and plans are well advanced to establish a food innovation hub at Teagasc Moorepark. We also continue to be focused on climate change and sustainability. A particularly significant development in this regard is the establishment of what we are calling a sustainable farm at Teagasc Kildalton.

I turn now to the second area on which the committee asked us to focus, namely, prospects for the dairy industry. The table I am now displaying contains key information in this regard. I ask members to concentrate on the Total Cost row, which is an estimate of the total costs of dairy production extracted from the Teagasc profit monitor. We give the data for the average, for all farms that complete a profit monitor in dairy, and for the top 10% and bottom 20% of farms. I would like to clarify an issue about which there is a great deal of confusion at times. When we talk about total costs, we are excluding family labour, own land and owned capital. That is a very important point to note. Members will see that the average cost is 23 cent per litre, which ranges from a low cost of 18 cent on the top 10% of farms to a relatively high cost of 29 cent on the bottom 10% of farms. This is a key metric in the context of reduced prices for dairy products and volatility of prices.

The committee will notice the substantial range and performance and if we were to extract the data for beef, sheep or cereals there would be the same variation. It is almost a law of nature to some extent. One thing that saves Irish agriculture is that we have relatively low debt. Even for dairy farms with debt, the debt is under €100,000.

We are all conscious of the challenges that dairy farmers face following the removal of quotas plus the major opportunities. One point that continues to be of concern is that so few farms exercise even basic financial management of their farm situation. That is a significant concern particularly in the context of the post quota era. We continually assess farmer intentions in the dairy sector as to likely increases. It is clear from the most recent survey of plans for the period 2015 to 2017 that about 60% of dairy farms are planning to expand. The red coloured line shows that about half of the farms plan to expand by 10% and 20% and another 30% or so plan to expand by up to 10%. When all that is combined, we think that by 2017 the growth of milk according to this analysis would be of the order of 17%.

I draw to the attention of the committee the diagram at the top right hand side which depicts the trend in milk deliveries. A point worth making is that the food harvest base is from 2007 to 2009. Between that base and last year there has already been a significant increase in milk production of the order of 15%, which is already in the bag, so to speak. We reckon that over the next three years - beyond that it becomes a bit fanciful - there will be another 17%. Our view is that it will not be that difficult to achieve the 50% increase. In the box at the bottom of the same page we show what it might mean in terms of the additional number of cows which is of the order of 333,000. Substantial additional investment will be required. We reckon there will be larger farms and certainly farms will specialise to a greater degree, as we have already seen. There may also be some increase in on-farm and off-farm employment and certainly more land will be used for milk production.

Price volatility is a constant refrain in the agricultural sector. The chart illustrates this quite well. We have gone back a long way to illustrate the point here. Taking the period from 1992 up to 2006, it is clear that milk price on average is around 28 cent per litre with a fairly narrow range of fluctuation of about plus or minus 2 cent. We move into a new era of volatility from 2006 up to the current year. From 2006 to the current year, it is clear that the level of milk price increases on average to 32.5 cent but the fluctuation also increases to about plus or minus 6 cent per litre. We are pencilling in a figure for this year of about 27 cent on average. I would not want to be held to this because it is rather like backing the horses at Cheltenham. These are average annual prices. Roughly we are looking at a fall of about 8 cent to 10 cent or somewhere around that from last year's average. Given the data I presented earlier on the cost of production, the implications are very clear, particularly for the high cost producers.

On coping with volatility, the chart tries to tell a story about how farmers can cope with volatility. The problem is illustrated in the chart quite well. The blue line shows the fluctuating milk price in schematic terms and the dotted lines indicate the different price ranges.

A low cost producer is in a much stronger position to withstand volatility but clearly a high-cost producer, as indicated by the red dotted line, will face severe competitiveness challenges. In terms of managing volatility a longstanding refrain of Teagasc is that cost control is essential; the data speak for themselves. The lower cost farms are more resilient.

It is important that farms try to build up a cash reserve. In other countries there are mechanisms in place to assist them to do that, in Ireland it has to be done on a voluntary basis. We are doing that in the Kilkenny greenfield farm. Those who are familiar with that farm will see how we are dealing with volatility there by building up a cash reserve. We cannot emphasise enough the importance of cash flow budgets, not only for the farm expense but for the household expenses, particularly in the current year. The processors can assist by having a significant portion of the milk locked into a contract. I am speaking here only about price volatility but volatility can arise in other areas also, not least, the weather.

Dr. Tom O'Dwyer heads up our dairy knowledge transfer programme. In the current year we are trying to focus on the concept of resilience. I think of this as the ability of a farm to bounce back in terms of if it gets a shock how prepared it is to recover. This is where having a low cost base is critically important. We have held several seminars at the beginning of the year around the country to focus on cash flow management. Clearly discussion groups are a huge support to farmers in the current situation and for the future. Farmers learn more from each other than they will ever learn from an external facilitator or adviser - that is no criticism of the adviser. It is just that people extract much greater value from the examples and experience of their peers.

We continue to push the idea of the profit monitor. We think it is essential that as many farms as possible maintain a profit monitor. We have a number of documents that we consider would be of assistance to farmers in the planning process. As I have stated, we have had a series of spring seminars around the country, the response to which has been huge. I attended a number of them. What came as a surprise to me was the way farmers engage with a simple cash planning exercise. When simplified, we found a huge engagement at that level.

I draw the attention of the committee to a final initiative we are desperately trying to implement in the current year as we see a huge demand for this. We are being bombarded by farmers who want assistance with expansion, yet there is a staff restriction in place. Despite that we have put together a creative response. We are planning to set up a national team that can work with a local adviser to help a farmer draw up a physical plan and a financial plan that could be used to draw down funding from financial institutions. We are encountering delays with that at the moment because of the shortage of key staff but, hopefully, that will be resolved in the not too distant future.

In summary, our approach to dairy expansion is that the resilient farm is the farm that will be sustainable in the long run. In simple terms that is the farm that strives to minimise costs in the system. We are very conscious of the advice we give in the current circumstances. I do not know what it is, maybe it is a psychological trait in us all, but there seems to be a drive to expansion before farmers take adequate account of rectifying deficiencies in their farms.

We have a simple phrase in this context, "better before bigger" but it is a hard message to get across. It is if the dog has been left off the leash in that farmers just want to tear off out the field. We recognise that responding to volatility is a relatively new issue for dairy farmers, unlike their counterparts in other enterprises who have had a long-standing battle with price volatility. We see a role for stakeholders and the industry and have had a number of joint programmes with the dairy co-operatives. They are a very good way of enabling industry to put together measures and programmes that will support their milk suppliers.

I have already outlined the challenges with regard to cash flow. Cash is king in the farming business and it is a question of trying to manage it. Finally, the big challenge for us is to try to assist farmers to expand sustainably from an environmental point of view and more particularly, from an income point of view. We want the young farmer who expands today to still be in business 20 years or 30 years from now and to be able to pass on that farm to the next generation.

I thank Professor Boyle for his detailed submission. I will now invite questions from committee members.

Regarding the annual report and the figures therein, we see a huge increase in the pension bill because of retirements. In that context, one could question the return to the State from the early retirement policy. Pensions account for approximately 22% of costs in Teagasc. Does Professor Boyle see that growing in the future, in actual cash terms, or has that figure reached its peak? In other words, will people leaving exceed the numbers coming into the organisation?

My other question is related to this issue. Professor Boyle said that Teagasc is earning 40% of its income and some of that income comes from purely commercial work. Can Professor Boyle tell us how much of Teagasc income is derived from work on CAP schemes, including the area-based payments scheme, the agri-environment options scheme, discussion groups and so forth? In other words, how much is Teagasc dependent on an indirect subsidy from the taxpayers of Europe to fund its operations? If the CAP were to change in the future, what effect would that have on the income stream for Teagasc?

I have been a consistent opponent of blanket embargoes. I can never understand the position of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in this regard, which proves that some things never change no matter who is in Government. Even if Teagasc could hire staff who would pay for themselves, it cannot do so because of the embargo. That said, if Teagasc is hiring staff who would pay for themselves, it is only fair that the long-term pension contribution be factored in, on an actuarial basis. That is reasonable but I believe that Teagasc should be allowed to hire staff where there is work to be done.

I ask Professor Boyle to clarify an issue for me. D-day for the GLAS scheme is 30 April. In response to a parliamentary question last week the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine told me that there are over 350 registered GLAS planners. Apparently 700 have been trained but only 350 have been accredited to date. Of the 700 who have been trained, how many come under the aegis of Teagasc and how many of the approved GLAS planners are Teagasc planners, either direct or indirect?

Allowing for other work that Teagasc has to do with regard to area-based payments, young farmer applications and so forth, how many plans does Professor Boyle think each planner will put out per week?

I am fascinated by what Professor Boyle had to say about the dairy industry. He seemed to be telling us that in order for farmers to maintain relative immunity to price volatility, they must keep their costs down. The big variables are input prices and capital expenditure. In respect of the latter, he is saying that farmers should not over-borrow. The efficiency index supplied to the committee shows the top 10% and the bottom 10%. In that context, does Professor Boyle know whether there are more farmers in the bottom 10% who would be classed as small farmers? In other words, is there a relativity between farm size and efficiency in terms of cost management? Are there more big farms in the top 10% of the efficiency index? That may be the case but it may also be the case that those in the top 10% are much more highly geared, which is a counter balance in the sense that their profit may not be all it is made out to be. Perhaps the operators at the low end have not borrowed so heavily so what they lose on the swings, they gain on the roundabouts. Is there a pattern there in terms of younger farmers and older farmers? If these figures are not readily available, perhaps Professor Boyle will supply them to us at a later date.

Do we know if the more efficient farmers are those in the older age group who have a lifetime of experience in management or are the younger farmers more efficient? Do we know anything about age versus efficiency? I am particularly keen to find out if we know anything about the efficiency, in terms of cost control and output, of the new entrants to dairying. I have a hunch, which could be proven wrong, that some new entrants might not be very efficient because they do not have the savvy that the old hand would have.

We had a very interesting presentation recently on what I would call treadmill farming. This is the scenario where, as happened in New Zealand and Northern Ireland, production increases but profits do not rise accordingly. Furthermore, risk is increased because margins are much tighter and if anything goes wrong, the farmer is much more vulnerable. Does Professor Boyle have any information on that?

On sheep research, concern has been expressed that there is only one Teagasc research station working on sheep and none working on hill sheep at all, to my knowledge. Furthermore, part of the sheep research station has been given over to a demonstration beef farm, funded by a certain meat factory. Professor Boyle will know that sheep farmers are concerned about that and I ask him to clarify whether it will impact on sheep research. Does Teagasc have any plans to do research work with hill farmers? In terms of hill and mountain farmers in the west I believe we need a united brand for black-faced sheep. They should all be sold under some label like Connemara lamb or similar, regardless of whether the animals come from Donegal, Kerry or elsewhere. We need a national brand for that type of sheep because each region trying to sell it on its own does not give scale or season. We must overcome that problem. Has Teagasc worked with farmers to try to get them to work with their counterparts in other regions? It is difficult enough to get farmers in different regions to see that if they do not put scale into their marketing they will not have a chance.

It is better for farmers to do simple accounts, factoring in the 89% of costs and taking a stab at the rest, than for them to be doing no accounts.

Sometimes it can get so complicated that they just give it up as a bad job. In the profit monitor, e-accounts and the rest, are there variations to suit different levels of farming and the different levels of educational attainment of the farmers, so even a farmer with a very basic approach can at least keep some type of record of how they are proceeding, particularly in high productive systems such as dairying?

I thank Professor Boyle for his presentation. My first question is about the education programme in Teagasc and the colleges. It might not be relevant to the annual report but every year I encounter a number of students who have applied for grants to Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, rather than to Teagasc for attending college. They always get caught by SUSI because it does not tell them until the end of the process that they are not covered for Teagasc colleges. In fairness to Teagasc, it is very good about accepting late applications. However, perhaps it is something Teagasc could make students aware of at an earlier stage, so they do not take the SUSI route. Regardless of what one tries to tell SUSI, it waits until the very end until it tells them they are not eligible, and that is usually after the closing date for Teagasc applications.

Regarding dairy pricing, like Deputy Ó Cuív I would be interested to hear about the size of the farms and herds in the bottom 10% and top 10%, in terms of the profitability and so forth. It is clear from Professor Boyle's presentation that there will be a fair degree of rationalisation within the dairy sector over the next number of years. Has Teagasc conducted any research into how great that will be? Looking at the figures, it appears that the bottom 10% and probably the bottom 20% will be squeezed out, because they do not appear to be able to sustain the volatility.

There is a chart showing the total costs, a breakdown of the costs and the profitability. It shows a total cost of 22.9 cent per litre. On the next chart there is an average cost of 27.4 cent per litre for 2013. What accounts for the difference between those two cost figures? It would make a difference to the viability of farms.

We were given a presentation previously in which it was said that farmers should concentrate on grass-rich production in order to keep costs down in dairying into the future. I always understood we had grass-rich production. How much capacity is there to produce more grass to enable costs to be kept down? The input costs for dairy farmers in the North in terms of feed are approximately four times the costs in the South. If it will be necessary to produce more feed in order to increase production, that will obviously affect the margin as well. Is there much spare capacity within the dairy sector to produce more grass to sustain larger numbers of cows on farms?

I welcome Professor Boyle and compliment him on his presentation. My first question relates to the goal of encouraging diversification of the rural economy and enhancing the quality of life in rural areas. Some of Teagasc's personnel were involved in the Commission for the Economic Development of Rural Areas, CEDRA, report last year. The sustainability of rural Ireland has become a topical issue in recent months for a number of reasons, although I believe it has been over-hyped to a large extent. Like me, Professor Boyle was in Belview last week. Jim Bergin made an interesting point about increased production in the Ballyragget area in Kilkenny. There are 79 farmers producing milk in that area and he said that the increase in the amount of milk produced in the next number of years would mean that €10 million extra - I am open to correction if that figure is not right - would be pumped into the local economy in that space of time. That is a huge amount of money. Is any work being done on how that money will be spread in the local economy or on what can be done to try to encourage more off-farm or outside the farm gate production, or on other issues in that regard?

This time last year there was a crisis in the beef industry and, rightly or wrongly, Teagasc received a certain amount of criticism for the advice it may or may not have given regarding bull beef. It was a major topic at the time. As everybody knows, when prices improve, last year is quickly forgotten. However, some people do not forget it. What has Teagasc done in the intervening period to educate people on that issue? Bull beef was the main issue this time last year, although I realise the debate moved on to the price of steers later, and it was suggested that Teagasc had advised farmers to go that route in the years prior to that. What is the current position? Does Teagasc envisage a role for bull beef in the future, or is it doing any work on that area at present?

There will be huge opportunities and challenges in the dairying industry in the next number of years. The main point made in Professor Boyle's presentation is that approximately 20 years ago, in 1995, the price of a litre of milk was 27 cent or 28 cent. Today, he predicts a similar price range. Unfortunately, however, the price of production has increased by 50% in those 20 years, which is not sustainable on those figures. In the same period of time we have seen the New Zealand and Northern Ireland experience. To return to Deputy Pringle's point regarding grass-rich production, from our information and following a recent visit we made to our colleagues in Stormont, when we discussed this issue, it appears that farmers in the North have moved away from grass-rich production and have started to concentrate on extra feeding, which is a huge cost.

Professor Boyle mentioned education, which is crucial. At a recent cow sale in Kilkenny, farmers were beating themselves up paying €2,500 to €3,000 for replacement cows. There is not much logic in that. I realise it will be very hard to manage that, but there must be some realism in the market as well. If people are going to pay that to try to increase numbers, there will be a very sad ending. There will be many tears. Somebody will be blamed, and it will not be the person who is spending the money on the day. It will be somebody else's fault. How to get around educating farmers on that point is crucial for the future.

On the New Zealand experience, there has been much talk about how farmers there have increased production by a huge amount in the last 20 years. They started at the point where we are now and they are now at a multiple of that. However, the picture is not so rosy there at present. There are animal welfare issues, and they have not increased their income. Obviously they have increased their production, but the profit per farm has not increased. That is a huge issue and we must learn from it. Is Teagasc referencing New Zealand with a view to putting structures in place to educate and inform our dairy farmers on what challenges might lie ahead by comparing where New Zealand is at present and where we are now as a starting point?

With regard to dairy farm numbers, when we joined the EU in 1973 there were approximately 166,000 dairy farmers in the country. At that time it was probably a romantic scene to be pushing the churn out to the edge of the road and so forth. It has since become an industry and a business. There are now approximately 18,000 dairy farmers. Does Teagasc envisage many of those being lost in the rationalisation over the next period of time as the industry tends to get bigger? Will the so-called inefficient dairy farmers be lost in the process?

I come back to the general point. In his presentation Professor Boyle talked about staff numbers. Will Teagasc get away from the form filling practices which have obviously taken up a lot of time in the case of single farm payments, GLAS, the AEOS, etc.? Will there be more emphasis on getting into the field and being more research based than on form filling?

Senator Paschal Mooney, Deputy Tom Barry, Senator Michael Comiskey and Deputy Martin Heydon also wish to speak, after which I may have some points to make if they have not already been made.

Professor Gerry Boyle

I will ask my colleague Dr. O'Dwyer to deal with some of the dairy questions, although there are a few general points to be made.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív asked about pensions. Clearly, pension costs are a big drag on our grant-in-aid, as can be seen from the figures. The number of pensioners now significantly exceeds the number of staff. I hope the ratio will not deteriorate too much, but I certainly do not see the balance being reversed in the near future. Our hope is that we will have stability. At least, the position is transparent in our case. There are many agencies and Departments in which the same issue arises. However, because of our accounting standards we are obliged to calculate the actuarial cost of pensions and the point is well made.

The Deputy also made a good point about the indirect support for Teagasc through various EU schemes. In recent years this support has decreased substantially because of the disbandment of the REPS which was a massive programme for Teagasc. It was not that we made a profit as such, but we were enabled to recruit a large number of staff to process the applications and had to recover the full cost, which was a requirement of the scheme. In recent years, obviously, the removal of the REPS has been a significant factor in the reduction in our staff numbers.

The basic payments scheme continues to be a very important source of activity for us. While the fees are relatively modest, at €145, for a relatively small income unit, nonetheless it is very significant when it is all added. Probably 40% of our clients fall into that category.

This raises a point which is related to something Deputy Pat Deering said. We are looking at this area very closely because, alongside the work on the issue of scheme support, we have a remit to support development on farms. Farmers are - I will not say willingly - more prepared to pay for something that will benefit them directly such as support in applying for the singe farm payment, now the basic payments scheme, a GLAS payment, etc. They are slightly more reluctant, although this has changed somewhat, to contribute to membership of a discussion group. When the dairy expansion scheme was introduced - it was a subsidy for farmers to join discussion groups - we received an increase which lasted for three years. We retained a significant number of these farms and were pleasantly surprised. Once farmers joined a discussion group for the first time, they realised there were benefits to be gained over and above the grants they were receiving. It took a little persuasion, but they stayed in the scheme.

Over the longer term, farmers appreciate that what we might call development support is of benefit to them in helping them to generate sustainable income.

Over time, even if we were to stabilise advisory numbers at present levels, we will need to look very carefully at the extent to which we are involved in what might be called scheme-support activity because of the pressure of work, particularly at this time of year and especially in the dairy area. For the past couple of months, most of our advisers have been tied up with applications for GLAS, single farm payments, the young farmers scheme etc., when I think we all agree they should be out on the farms supporting farmers. We will see a shift from that type of activity and more towards development.

The Deputy asked a number of questions about the planners. I have some answers for him but I do not have all the answers. I propose that I submit a detailed response on that. I agree with the Deputy. Our assessment is also that there are about 450 qualified planners. Most of them would be in Teagasc, but they are people who are fully engaged in other activities, and that was one of the reasons we did not and could not get directly involved in GLAS planning, as it is called. That is why we entered into a strategic alliance with FRS.

FRS has recruited 80 qualified planners. In our assessment, certainly that is capable of achieving our aim. As Deputies know, in the first tranche of GLAS 30,000 will be accepted. We have targeted about 8,000 of our clients and we think we have enough planners to do that. They are under huge pressure because the deadline is tight; we would like more time. We anticipated a much longer planning period, as I think everyone did.

There are 8,000 plans and 80 planners.

Professor Gerry Boyle

Yes.

That is the equivalent of 100 plans each in 50 days, which is two plans a day.

Professor Gerry Boyle

I did say that we see a difficulty with the deadline.

It is possible to figure it out with plans costing up to €1,000-----

Professor Gerry Boyle

No. The Teagasc cost structure is an initial payment of €400, and if the farm is accepted, it is then €465, including a nutrient management plan. However, I have to be candid with the Deputy; the deadline at the moment is very challenging.

In fairness, the date is outside the director's control. However, we need to be cognisant of it as an issue. We are all aware of that.

Professor Gerry Boyle

It is challenging.

I will pick up on a few other points. I will let Dr. O'Dwyer talk about the dairy side.

I am glad to have the opportunity to address the issue of sheep research, because there has been a lot of misinformation. The basic point is that the location of the beef farm will have no impact, good, bad or indifferent, on the sheep programme in Athenry. That land was not Teagasc land. As members know, it was compulsorily acquired by IDA Ireland, which then rented it back to us. We are renting it at the moment. We did not have productive use for that land. We took the opportunity to locate a commercially run beef farm with the best available research on one site alongside what we think is now a highly successful sheep demonstration farm. The main point is that there is no encroachment on the capacity of the sheep programme and there never was.

I take the Deputy's point on hill sheep. We have looked at different ways of delivering our research services. We have a number of hill sheep farms involved in what we are calling our Better Sheep programme. These are actual commercial farms on which we are doing highly applied research.

We believe that this is an adequate way of dealing with and responding to the needs of hill sheep farmers via the better farm programme.

I completely agree with the Deputy's assertion in respect of branding. We are involved with the Mayo lamb and Kerry lamb groups to which he referred. I visited the Kerry lamb project, which has proven really successful and which illustrates the beneficial role Teagasc can play. The organisation acts as a sort of honest broker in the context of bringing people together and organising them into groups. There is scope for more of these groups to be established, but it must be noted that a great deal of management and co-operation are required in respect of them.

I could not agree more with the Deputy in the context of what he said in respect of accounts. I was trying to make a specific point earlier in the context of our experience with the seminars we hosted just over a month ago. We produced a one-page cashflow plan for those seminars and it encouraged farmers to engage in a way that surprised me. We found ourselves reminding the farmers who attended that they have to pay their tax bills and that this should be included in their accounts, as should information relating to any of their children who are attending university or college. This might seem quite elementary at one level, but it was the first occasion on which people had the opportunity to put it down on paper. What happened at those seminars was an eye-opener for me and we learned a lesson from the experience.

I take Deputy Pringle's point about colleges and SUSI. We bend over backwards to try to accommodate our students. In view of the massive amount of information with which parents and students must deal, I accept that they can sometimes be misdirected.

Grass-rich production is obviously a cornerstone of Teagasc's research and advisory programme. In answer to the specific question that was posed, I must state that there is massive potential in this area. Unfortunately, however, the challenge lies - I have been hearing this for 40 years - in realising that potential. We reckon that 15 tonnes of dry matter per hectare can comfortably be produced on most Irish grassland. On dairy farms the average rate of production is 7 tonnes, but there are some exceptional performers. The challenge in respect of this matter is massive and it also gives rise to a puzzle. When I speak to farmers who began with very poor knowledge about how to manage their grasslands, I am surprised by the length of time it takes to develop expertise. It could take up to two years of intensive effort and participation in discussion groups in order for them to learn a completely different management approach to the use of, for example, concentrate feed.

I agree with what Deputy Pringle said in respect of Northern Ireland. The evidence is there but it is sometimes difficult to obtain information from the North of Ireland. However, we have assembled it and made comparisons. The competitiveness of the Northern Ireland dairy system is certainly in question on foot of the fact that those involved in it have drifted away from grass. As a result, there definitely is more capacity.

I agree wholeheartedly with Deputy Deering's assessment. It is my personal view - I think this is backed up by research - that the driver of rural development must, first and foremost, be agricultural development. There is no question in my mind in that regard. Unfortunately, we can sometimes get locked into a discussion about rural development which tends to focus on schemes, and that then defines our approach. Schemes are very important supplements and complements, but if there is not a vibrant agricultural sector supported by upstream and downstream sectors, then it is difficult to identify from where the injection of economic activity is going to come. That is one message which emanated from the report of the Commission for the Economic Development of Rural Areas, CEDRA. We know from our research that it is vital to have the necessary infrastructure in place. The road network has been improved substantially and this has made a major difference in the context of transport costs, access to urban areas, etc. Obviously, broadband is a big issue - and increasingly so - in many parts of the country.

On the beef industry, our position on bull beef is consistent. We have carried out research and the results we obtained are very clear. The slaughter of very young bulls, which was an issue in the middle of the crisis, just does not pay off financially.

That was our finding and we presented it to the committee some time ago.

As far as I am concerned, all of our analysis stands up to scrutiny. There are some exceptional beef farmers who can produce bulls which can be slaughtered at a very young age, namely, 15 or 16 months. The producers in question really are exceptional and they prove the rule, which is that the extra period on grass is required in order to make production economic. As the Deputy noted, however, everything has changed in light of the situation with regard to price and we have moved on. We have consistently informed farmers that they need to discuss the types of animals they are producing with their local factories and, ideally, they need to obtain contracts. There is an issue in respect of consumer acceptance and we are doing a great deal of work in respect of this. Again, our evidence indicates that there is no great differentiation on the part of consumers in respect of very young bulls and those which are 22 months or older. Perception is everything in the marketplace. We have been informed that the real issue relates not to taste but rather to the size of the cut. As far as the economics are concerned the message is very clear: with grass systems - which are the most sustainable from an environmental and economic point of view - it is very difficult for most farmers, even those who are really good at what they do, to produce bulls efficiently at anything less than 22 months or so.

I already dealt with the issue of form-filling and I reiterate my view to the effect that the position in this regard is going to change. In the context of the New Zealand experience, the one thing a person learns in the context of agriculture is that averages are very deceiving. I have only just returned from New Zealand and I can state that there is a great deal happening within the average in question. For example, there are some exceptional performers and there are some very poor ones. There is no doubt that the poor performers have got into serious debt. The south island of New Zealand is very similar to Ireland. The winters there are somewhat harsher and many farmers are obliged to house animals during the relevant months. My observation of the position in New Zealand is that people are depending a great deal on the continued appreciation of land in order to justify their investments. From recent experience in other areas, we are all aware of the difficulties to which this kind of approach can give rise. If I was in their shoes, I would really be worried about the over-dependence on land values. As is the position here, one must unpick the average. Debt is certainly a major issue.

Deputy Ó Cuív raised one other point which I have discussed with Professor Boyle on previous occasions. I refer to the recruitment embargo and Teagasc's ability, or lack thereof, to hire staff who can pay for themselves.

Professor Gerry Boyle

I agree with what was said in that regard. A couple of difficulties arise and it is a question of trying to unravel from where the objection is emanating. It is certainly possible to build in an actuarial cost of pensions and identify a proper cost in respect of recruiting an adviser. There is no question that this can be done. If there are then non-Exchequer finances available either from farmer fees, the proceeds of agribusiness or whatever, I see no logical reason why staff could not be recruited. We live in hope. I am very positive with regard to the so-called new expenditure cap and when the detail relating to this is worked out, then recruitment may be possible.

There are probably other reasons for that which we are discussing and some of them relate to a legitimate discussion regarding the nature of the work we do. I refer, in particular, to scheme work and the legitimate question which arises as to whether this could be done by a non-public agency. That may partly explain the position which the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has adopted. The other reason relates to the significant issues that have arisen in the context of employment law with regard to contracts of indefinite duration and so forth.

I presume the committee is familiar with this also. People who are taken on on a contract basis can establish and have established employment rights. It is very difficult to restrict the employment contract satisfactorily. In other words, there are perceived risks in the recruitment of staff, which I can understand, and it is our job to try to work around them and try to explain where we are coming from.

Dr. Tom O'Dwyer

The first of the dairy questions asked by Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív was related to the size of farms and efficiency. Let us take the same rankings as on the chart - the top 10% and the bottom 10%. The average herd size was 101 dairy cows. Those in the top 10% in terms of efficiency had 103 cows, while those in the bottom 10% tended to have a smaller herd size of 81 cows. These figures suggest that those in the more efficient cohort do not have herd sizes any bigger than the overall average, while those who are less efficient tend to have a slightly smaller herd size.

In response to the Deputy's question on gearing, the figures I have with me are for interest payments and depreciation. If one takes the level of interest as being reflective of the level of borrowing and the level of depreciation as being reflective of the level of on-farm investment, the average interest figure is 0.7 cent per litre. The figure for those in the top 10% is 0.4 cent, while the figure for those in the bottom 10% is 1.1 cent. The farmers in the highest cost category, namely, those in the bottom 10%, tend to have higher interest costs, which suggests they have higher borrowings. They also tend to have higher depreciation costs, which suggests they have higher on-farm investments. Perhaps this is the reason they are in the higher cost category.

Without looking at the figures, we know from dealing with farmers that the cycle on farms tends to be rather clunky. One can have a large on-farm investment of perhaps €200,000 and then very little of a sizeable nature in the next ten to 15 years. In that period the costs of production will be diluted as cow numbers and production are ramped up and the farmer literally sweats the assets. Those in the lower cost category tend to have lower borrowings and lower depreciation costs.

I do not have any information in response to the Deputy’s question on younger versus older farmers. In terms of cost efficiency and the output of new entrants, it is a recognised fact that new or start-up dairy farms on greenfield sites are less efficient in the initial two to three years, or even four years, of production. This is the case for a number of reasons. One has a younger herd. One could have all heifers in the herd and they produce less than a mature herd. One could have brought together animals from different sources which could give rise to animal health issues. Another issue is the management experience of the farmer concerned; experience is built over a number of years.

To counterbalance this, what we are finding in engaging with some of the newer entrants and through research conducted by colleagues is that new entrant dairy farmers bring no baggage to the table. They are like a blank canvas. They come to Teagasc or talk to other consultants to get the best advice available. They talk to our advisers and researchers to get the latest research and best advice available and implement it. It is like teaching an old dog new tricks. Many of the new entrants want to learn and do it right. They avail of the latest technologies in breeding, grassland management and cost control. In time they will be very efficient, but the initial two to three years can be very daunting and challenging.

In response to the question on treadmill farming, as the director mentioned on the summary slide, we absolutely recommend "better before bigger" and "skill before scale". Despite what might be said to the contrary, we are not promoting having more cows at all costs.

A large cohort of farmers have no place thinking about increased cow numbers. They can produce more milk from existing resources, in other words, the same number of cows and the same level of investment by being more efficient. This is a message that is hard to sell at times, but that is our position.

The director commented on having simpler accounts. I will add that every farmer must complete financial accounts for taxation purposes. In our toolbox of financial supports for dairy and other farms we have a very simple one-page manually completed work sheet for the analysis of farm accounts, with as simple a measure as the percentage contribution of premia to net profit. In addition, there is a profit per hectare measure and a calculation of cashflow. We encourage our advisers to use this in a situation where a profit monitor is not being completed.

To move on to the questions asked Deputy Thomas Pringle, I have addressed the question on the top and bottom 10%. On whether smaller farmers will be squeezed out owing to rationalisation, we will see a reduction in dairy farmer numbers, from the current level of 18,000 to approximately 16,000 in the next five years or so. Interestingly, the number exiting dairying has been matched by the number of new entrants in recent years, with the result that the overall number of dairy farmers each year has, on average, largely remained unchanged in the past three to four years. What might happen is that we might redefine what a smaller farmer is. He or she may be someone with 30 to 40 cows, whereas in the past he or she had ten to 20 cows. That is one thing I could see happen because average herd size is going to increase, from approximately 65 to approximately 85 cows.

The other thing that will happen is that smaller farmers will not be able to generate an adequate income from dairy farming alone. Therefore, they may have to look at supplementing their income to a greater extent through off-farm employment. They can still remain dairy farmers, something we should not forget.

I am not clear on the Deputy’s question on the figure of 27.4 cent a litre. Perhaps he might provide clarification for me. His question on grass rich versus grass-poor dairying ties in with the questions on New Zealand asked by Deputy Pat Deering on whether we are referencing New Zealand in informing and advising. The research conducted by a colleague on grass-rich versus grass-poor systems was certainly informed by experience in New Zealand. What has happened there in the past five to seven years is that there has been a loss of focus; certainly there has been a drift from a situation where farmers were very much focused on grass-rich systems towards grass-poor systems. An increasing percentage of dairy farmers are now involved in grass-rich milk productions systems. When we engaged in that piece of analysis in Ireland, we were able to show that there was a greater likelihood that farmers who were following a grass-rich milk production system with a greater reliance on grass for a greater proportion of a cow’s diet would have a margin of €2,000 per hectare or more. There is absolutely more scope for increasing the amount of grass in a cow’s diet. One starts by growing more grass and the key to increased growth is improved soil fertility. Approximately 12% of soils farmed by dairy farmers is at optimum soil fertility levels. That will present a real challenge for the advisory service, advisers and farmers in the coming years.

I will move on to questions asked by Deputy Pat Deering on the spread of additional revenue in the local economy. To add to what the director said, that money is spent on additional services to support dairy farmers.

There are contractors, input suppliers, AI services, accountants and all the support services that are needed to service a functioning dairy farm. Obviously there will be increased employment, both on-farm and off-farm, as milk production increases. On-farm there will be additional milkers, additional farm managers and so on, and off-farm there will be the likes of farm relief services, milk transport, and other examples such as that.

On how we go about educating farmers about the perils of dairy expansion, one could say it is interwoven through all our advisory activities, starting from our media and open days, which are aimed at the large mass audience, down to our group activities - as the director said, we have approximately 6,000 dairy farmers in our dairy discussion groups - and then down to one-to-one activities with farmers such as planning and cost analysis.

I think the Senators are under time pressure.

I have three very short questions. About two years ago members of this committee attended the Green Week in Berlin and one of the stands that impressed me a great deal was about scientific advances that had been made in improving yield. Is Ireland at the cutting edge of that technology that ensures that we have the maximum yield from dairy herds, particularly in light of the ending of quotas? Is there any indication what impact the projected increase of 330,000 in the national dairy herd might have on Ireland's carbon footprint and on climate change?

There were extensive articles in today's newspapers about pricing, and one of the references that struck me was that there was no transparency in the deals struck with the processors and the supermarket multiples. Teagasc has suggested a price of 27.5 cent per litre but the articles refer to prices of 33 cent per litre, which farmers indicated resulted in only about 2 cent profit per litre. The price of non-branded liquid milk, which costs around 73 cent or 74 cent if one buys it in Superquinn or Tesco, was compared with branded milk, which costs €1.24 per litre. This is where the question was raised about lack of transparency. The articles said it was a closely guarded secret. In my opinion there is no transparency. What are the witnesses' views on this? Do they have any input into this? Surely there should be transparency.

One thing that keeps recurring is farmers saying they do not get a fair price for what they produce. I understand that only something like 8.4% of the total milk production in this country is liquid milk. Is there a fear that because of the expansion of dairy processing as a result of the ending of quotas and the emphasis on infant milk formula and non-liquid milk processing, we may find ourselves somewhat similar to Europe where UHT is used more than fresh milk? I think this would be a disaster and I do not think the consumer would take kindly to it. They are the sort of general issues and I am curious to know whether the witnesses have a view on them.

I will be very quick. I thank the witnesses for their presentations and answers so far. I congratulate Professor Boyle and Dr. O'Dwyer on their involvement in the Food Works programme, which is in its third year. It is a fantastic programme for brilliant young entrepreneurs who want to be innovative and come up with international businesses that can trade food. Teagasc has been involved with it for three years.

I want to build on the other questions so excuse me if I am a bit rough and just going in at the edges. There was a quite startling article in the Daily Telegraph a few weeks ago about robotics, automation, planning and processing which suggested that robotics will replace 35% of jobs, especially those that are repetitive. Taking dairy farming as an example, milking will become automated. How are we going on that and how are we looking at it, particularly with regard to dairy farming? Even doing accounts may become automated.

I worry about the staff shortages in Teagasc. Enrolments are up 154%. Since 2000 the number of staff at Teagasc has fallen by 42%. How can Teagasc strategise and prepare for the future and the challenges that are ahead of it if we do not lift the embargo on recruitment? The value of Kinsealy must be huge; that might help to hire a few new staff that are badly needed, because there has been a brain drain at Teagasc and it needs to get in some brilliant people to help it look to the future.

This is a strange question - it is coming out of left field - but I know Teagasc has a test going in Carlow on GMOs. Peru, I am glad to see, has provided in law to keep GMOs out. Ireland is a small island. We have to dare to be different. The Origin Green programme is wonderful. Climate change is upon us. Though I will not be here for the witnesses' answers, I will be looking back on them later. Has Teagasc ever undertaken a proper scientific test on water quality and fluoride? We are the only country left in Europe that fluoridates its water. I know most farming people have wells, but many farms do not. As we are the only country left in Europe that has fluoride in its water, what effects does that have on our agriculture? Are we doing tests on our food? What are the levels of fluoride in our cheese, milk and other dairy products?

How closely does Teagasc work with the EPA? I am reluctant to pick names but I will pick one that I am close to, the aluminium plant in Askeaton. Are emissions and air quality being monitored? How closely do Teagasc scientists work with the EPA?

I could go on but I think that is enough from Senator O'Brien for today.

I thank the Chair and welcome the witnesses. It is always good to discuss the future of agriculture rather than look back. I think it is noteworthy that a whole generation lost out because of the milk quota that was introduced in 1983, me being one of them. I grew up on a dairy farm where expansion was not possible.

The witnesses mentioned a few things and I will rattle through them very quickly. The debt on farms has been low to date and the witnesses have said this is essential going ahead. I agree but I do not like the surge in debt. Sweating the asset has been mentioned. That is a very funny way for a business to chug ahead, because it exposes it to cashflow difficulties at certain times and it is the very time that a business is under pressure that the market works against it. I think we should be looking at sustainable investment.

Basic financial management has been mentioned and farmers should be made aware of it, if nothing else. I feel that Teagasc has a role in this. So has the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. E-monitors are important, certainly, but so is sage management and issuing invoices. Farmers essentially produce milk, and they are excellent at doing so, but they never write an invoice. We need to move towards a situation in which they understand how to do this and treat it as a business. Also, farmers tend to do their book work at night. They tend to try to do it with their wives or whoever is there. It is done haphazardly. If farmers were asked to do book work in the busy calving season they would say, "Don't be annoying me." Businesses cannot work that way. I suggest that we try to get the message out that farmers need to start employing people who sit in front of a computer and do it properly. I know in my case I could not face a computer so we got somebody to do it. When one looks at the cost of those personnel - I will just pick a figure of €12 per hour - that would be well offset by the fines that would be paid out if there was an audit. That needs to be made clear. There are huge resources of labour in the countryside. Many people who are rearing families are free from 10 a.m. to 3 p.m. They will work part time and they are fantastic. They will get the work done consistently. We are not getting that out there.

I will not dwell too long on it. The milk price shown here is 39 cent per litre, giving a net profit of 16.4 cent, with the top 10% earning milk prices of 40.8 cent , a net profit of 23 cent. There is not a huge difference in the price they get for milk - which is surprising, because I thought with the butterfats and proteins there would be - but there is a huge difference in their profit. I am not sure what year this pertains to; is it 2014?

Dr. Tom O'Dwyer

It is 2014.

For a milk price of 28 cent per litre, that puts the average farmer at a 5.1 cent margin. I can tell Dr. O'Dwyer - Deputy Deering mentioned this earlier - that there is a lot of paying off for in-calf heifers of €2,500 with a net profit of 5.1 cent per litre. One could get to the fifth lactation before one would see anything. I got out of milk in 1991 - one could guess my age based on that - but it was essentially £1 per gallon at the time, which was the equivalent of 28 cent per litre. To think we are talking about that same price 24 years later is quite scary. While I am absolutely for increased production and am absolutely for driving on, we need to be sure we are doing it on a sound economic footing. I wonder if that is being spelled out strongly enough in our agricultural colleges. I really believe that youth is a great asset, but it needs to come with a health warning.

Dr. O'Dwyer mentioned increases in dairying, but where is the land going to come from? I sure as heck will not start milking cows; I could not even try. Mind you, if tillage keeps going the way it is going, it might be difficult. I wonder whether it is going to come from beef, from tillage or from land that is currently idle. There is not much of that around. The interest costs for people investing were mentioned. A cent per litre is quite high. Is Teagasc encouraging forward selling and is it doing enough to teach people the basics of soil science? I have an opinion about soil science; I believe it is the start of it all. If the basics and the soil are not correct, one is on a hiding to nothing. There are many people who walk out on the land and are not able to identify a weed or proper pasture, or who do not know the basis of the soil their grass is growing on. It is quite frightening to hear that only two thirds of soil in Ireland is at optimum capacity. It is no wonder some farmers are getting 15 tonnes of grass per hectare and some are only getting seven. How can one expand if one is on eight or nine tonnes per hectare? It makes no sense.

I agree with the witnesses that rural development should not be driven by schemes. I believe many of the schemes exist to flatten out the curve of production costs. In the past there was a gallop to collect every bit of money we could in schemes, including the beet payments, which got rid of the sugar industry. We saw where that left us. Averages are misleading. There was an AIB farm representative one time who had a great saying, even though it was slightly rude: "If your head was in the fridge and your tail end was in the fire, the average would be good, but it would not be a great place to be." Averages should be given with another health warning.

The witnesses mentioned land in New Zealand and appreciation of the land, but this shows that the funding is probably not coming from the right area. It is not coming from farm families; it is probably coming from the larger industry. Could he elaborate more on diversification, an area I am very interested in, in that smaller farms will probably need to diversify while they keep farming? In the last budget, income averaging was increased to five years, but this also incorporated off-farm income, which is very important here. What cow numbers would Dr. O'Dwyer suggest are needed to be lucky at that? Would it be 80 or 100 cows? I know it is all variable on price, but from a strictly financial point of view, it strikes me that a price of 40 cent per litre, even though it might sound large, is what this country needs to facilitate sustainable investment and allow monies to be put aside for reinvestment. The cost of production is increasing hugely, which is a worry. While we saw Saudi oil prices drop this year, the cost of fertiliser increased. For sustainability in this industry, what is the ideal herd size?

I will be brief. I thank the witnesses for their presentation, which was very informative with a lot of work done on it. Back at home we work very closely with Teagasc and I am involved in discussion groups. An issue which comes up quite a lot at the moment is places for education. It is a great incentive for young farmers. Will we be able to deliver the necessary courses for them for the green cert? I believe there were 175 applications for 39 or 40 places in Sligo-Leitrim. I know it came up at the launch in Bundoran that Teagasc was looking for more staff or resources to do that. I want to agree with the whole GLAS application issue, which looks as though it was very short and will have to be extended. It is something we will work on.

I thank the witnesses for coming in and for their presentation. I will not repeat many of the points in the questions I was going to ask. It was mentioned in the presentation that a key point for farmers is the necessity to build up a cash reserve and that other countries have methods of dealing with this while in Ireland it is voluntary. When other countries are referred to, does that mean subsidies? How do other countries do it? What options are open to us? I believe it is possible in the US to have insurance against price volatility. Is that something the witnesses see us being able to do here? How could we go about that?

The point about staff in Teagasc is taken on board. I was going to raise my concerns about the basic payment scheme, but as the Chairman said, we are probably going to work on this as a committee and follow up on it ourselves, so I take that as noted.

On the diversification of the rural economy and enhanced quality of life in rural Ireland, are there any links between Teagasc and the Leader programme as it is rolled out? While it is all well and good to have aspirations, and I completely agree that agriculture is going to have to be the key driver of regeneration in rural Ireland, if much is to be done then money is key. Does Teagasc have any interaction with Leader? If it does not, could it access funding through the Leader programme? In what areas does Teagasc see that money could be spent to enhance its goal?

In the overall context of discussing the dairy industry, concerns were raised last year about the beef herd being a subset or spin-off of our dairy herd as opposed to being an entity in its own right. There are concerns that this could happen with further dairy expansion. Could the committee hear the witnesses' views on that and how best to avoid that happening?

I will turn back to the witnesses.

Professor Gerry Boyle

I will try to deal with the variety of questions raised. I propose to go through them and my colleague will supplement any of my answers if he needs to and if I commit any errors, omissions or otherwise.

On Senator Mooney's first question regarding yields, some of the most spectacular and substantial developments in research over recent years have been on the dairy side in genetic gain and better management. We had a fertility issue in the dairy herd and that is now pretty much resolved at this stage. We have benefited in terms of yield, in the broad sense of the term, over recent years and that has been well quantified. We reckon that with the genetic research alone, with ourselves and the Irish Cattle Breeding Federation working closely together, there has been a cost-benefit ratio of about 8:1. It is a very good story.

The Senator raised a very important question for public policy regarding the implication of climate change, and Teagasc is projecting an additional 330,000 cows.

There are two dimensions to the production of emissions. On the one hand, there is the level of emissions produced per cow and then there are the number of cows. On the first indicator, the level of emissions produced per cow, we have made substantial improvements in Ireland in recent years in driving down the level of emissions or, more particularly, in terms of per kilogram of milk output. That has come about as a result of considerable research. Virtually every improvement in efficiency on farms, and we can take any indicator, be it a fertility indicator, the grazing season or whatever it may be, leads to an improvement in a reduction in the level of emissions per kilogram of output, and that is a positive.

The other side of that is that if we increase the numbers, there is a balancing act. We would argue and have consistently argued, and there is beginning to be a shift in international opinion in this area, that the target for agriculture of a blanket cap on emissions is a very simplistic target and that the focus should be on the emissions produced per kilogram of product because that only focuses on the most efficient location in which to produce milk, beef or whatever. We could be very successful in Ireland or in Europe, even though we are very small, in capping emissions through very draconian measures, but that would only lead to an increase in emissions elsewhere. We hold to that point of view. However, the fact of the matter is that the policy is the policy. The Senator is right in that respect. The increase in the number of cows, adjusting for any reduction in emissions per unit of milk produced, will of itself lead to more emissions, although not many more because there is a balancing act within that equation.

This relates to the question that Deputy Heydon raised about the trade-off with the beef herd. There is no doubt in our view that the beef herd will be reduced. The extent of that is difficult to say, but there will be a trade-off there for the simple reason that many dairy farmers under the quota regime with additional land had suckler cows, and those suckler cows obviously are not as valuable post-quota. We will see a shift there and that will be a balancing act, but it raises issues Deputy Heydon has highlighted about the implications for the beef sector.

I note Senator Mooney's point about the transparency of the price of milk. We would all agree that the price of milk is more transparently determined, if unsatisfactory from a farming point of view at times, than is the beef price or the price of meat. That is not an answer, but it is a fact none the less simply because, by and large, we have a co-operative structure. The Senator raised an interesting point about liquid milk and I had not thought about it before. Clearly, the economics of producing liquid milk and the labour involved in its production with all-year round calving are very difficult and challenging. We have made some significant inroads in terms of the economics with our research farm in Johnstown Castle, where we have a liquid milk farm and we employ the same principles in relation to grass utilisation, which would not be the traditional way to produce liquid milk, and certainly the economics are far better there. However, the Senator raised an interesting question about the potential shortage of fresh milk. I agree with him that this would not be a satisfactory situation.

I appreciate Senator Mary Ann O'Brien's acknowledgement of the food works programme. We work very closely with Enterprise Ireland and Bord Bia, and some very successful companies have been established on foot of that initiative.

She raised an interesting question about the development of robotics in agriculture. We are doing a certain amount of work on that, most notably in the Kilworth farm and the Dairygold farm near Moorepark where we have an autograss milk product. I do not know if many members have visited that farm but it has an automatic milk system within a grazing system which is unusual. Most of the automatic milking systems are within grain-fed systems. There is no doubt that there will be greater use of robotics.

Robotics is probably too narrow a way of framing what the future will look like. The agricultural sector will increasingly use advances in other areas.

We have linked up in a very interesting alliance with the Tyndall National Institute in University College Cork, which is the national micro-electronics institute, and it is producing some fascinating electronic devices, for example, to improve the efficacy of disease management and so forth. The developments in this area are amazing. It has come to us and said that it thinks agriculture is ripe for the development of some of these devices and we are working closely with it. There are some fascinating areas involved and only time will tell how such developments progress. Sometimes we find that these developments often suggest a more positive future than is realised in practice, but none the less we think there are opportunities.

There are a couple of very interesting areas. For example, most recently we have been involved with a small, innovative company in Moorepark in investigating a grass measurement device, which is a very impressive kit. It allows the farmer to measure grass using a plate meter, transmit that information via Bluetooth to a mobile phone, and the farmer can calculate grass wedge and so on. That is the future direction in this area. My experience from a recent visit to New Zealand is that we are not too far off from being able to apply yield mapping to pastureland, and that has certainly been beneficial in the cereals area. It would be hugely beneficial in pasture production because we could reduce, for instance, the cost of fertilisers.

A related area has already emerged. I am sure members have heard of the phrase "big data", and the idea is that a great deal of information is being assembled because we are measuring so many things, cow movements and so on via transponders from which we can infer useful information. That is all part of this mix. It is all linked into the development of various devices, and certainly there is potential in this area.

On the staffing issue, I wish to make a point about the embargo. Notwithstanding the embargo, we obtained sanction to allow us to make mission-critical appointments, and I acknowledge that. That was very important, particularly in very difficult situations.

The education service in Teagasc was mentioned. There are always some year-to-year problems and people do not always get the course or the college they seek, but we are committed, and are supported by Government in this, to accepting every qualified student. We would view it as a failure if we were not able to do that, and that is our commitment in the context of the young farmers scheme.

As members will know, the deadline has been extended for farmers to qualify for top-up payments in terms of the completion of their programme. I advise Senator Comiskey that we are confident we will be able to cope with the demand over the period available to us, and we have been supported in this regard.

Senator Mary Ann O'Brien raised the issue about the GMO trial in Oak Park. This has been a controversial programme because we have a very small plot. We had 27 potato plants in the first year and it is part of an EU-wide project. We have no bias in this respect except to provide information. I always make the point that the best defence in situations where there is uncertainty is information. That is where we are coming from on this. The purpose of this project, as has been demonstrated, is to address the issue of late onset blight and to examine the ecological implications of planting crops. This is not a transgenic experiment where a gene is transposed from a wild plant that has resistance to late onset blight. This is a debate we have had to have.

I refer to the debate on the amount of chemicals used to deal with this problem - I cannot think of the number just now, but several repeated applications are required to deal with the challenge. We have to look very seriously at what, effectively, is a more environmentally friendly alternative. This is a modest project and, as a research organisation, Teagasc is of the view that we have do some work in this area.

We are not doing any work on fluoride and water quality. We have a close relationship with the Environmental Protection Agency, which is a very important agency with regard to the agricultural sector. Teagasc works very closely with the EPA. We have our perspective and they have theirs. Our interest is to protect commercial agriculture while adhering to required standards. For example, the EPA provided substantial funding for the soil survey, of which Teagasc is very appreciative. That survey is very valuable from the EPA's perspective and it is hugely valuable from our perspective. That is an example of how we can work together in the interests of the sector.

I agree with Deputy Barry's comments about debt and what he termed the surge debt, which is a very good description. He reiterated the importance of both cashflow and financial management generally. He put his finger on the biggest challenge for Irish agriculture; it is really not so much a technical challenge as a business challenge. The challenge is that farming needs to be treated as a business. I have been fortunate to have visited New Zealand, and the message I have come back with is not the scale - which is impressive - nor the technical capability, but the fact New Zealand dairy farmers talk business. A relative of mine from New Zealand visited Ireland and when he was talking to his Irish relatives one would think they were talking about a different industry. My New Zealand relative was asking the Irish dairy producer about his return in equity, but it was a dialogue of the deaf. That is the key difference. I agree with the comments on book work.

I refer to Deputy Barry's point about employing people to do financial analysis. Farmers are required to do a lot of things related to scheme obligations, for example. They do what they are required to do. They will carry out a soil analysis as part of REPS or AOS. However, they do not then use that soil analysis in their purchasing decisions. In my view - and this is a terrible but useful phrase - they do not take ownership of the information. There is no problem in a person getting someone else to do certain work because that might be more efficient, but it is most important that one use that information, interpret it and be on top of it. The farmer may not have produced the information, but he should be on top of it and he should use it to improve his income situation.

Deputy Barry made a very important point, which was relevant also to an earlier question from Deputy Pringle about the 24.4 cent price for milk. It is contained in a table we have supplied. That figure is from the national farm survey and it is a more representative sample. Naturally, one would expect a higher cost of production from a national sample. The farmers who come into the profit monitor are probably better farmers to begin with or they would not be doing the profit monitor. Teagasc has been criticised, and with some validity. It is important to note that the cost of heifer rearing must be added to the total cost figure. We reckon this could be anywhere around 4 cent per litre, which is a substantial cost. Other costs should be included. For example, we have not included a cost for family labour, and this could mean the addition of another 5 or 6 cent.

I refer to another aspect of New Zealand agriculture. When a New Zealand dairy farmer talks about production costs, it is always a fully comprehensive measure of cost, whereas in Ireland - this is something we may need to discontinue - we have the tradition of excluding certain items that would never be excluded in the New Zealand context, where land costs would be included in the total.

I refer to our greenfield site farm in Kilkenny which is an example of where all the costs are explicit. Heifer rearing is included because we have contract rearing of heifers so it is an explicit cash cost. The labour and land costs are also included. It is a much more rounded measure of cost which is what is important, particularly in a difficult circumstance.

I agree completely on the point about soil science which is the foundation of all agricultural knowledge. The figure quoted here is quite alarming. Dr. Tom O'Dwyer quoted 14% of soil samples as being optimal.

Fourteen per cent.

Professor Gerry Boyle

Yes. I was making this point elsewhere. I refer to the period of economic expansion in 1958 when soil fertility was emphasised. It is ironic that nearly 60 years later, we have an issue. I remember at another meeting with this committee when a Deputy asked me about the sea sand subsidy and it brought back memories of the early 1960s. The view in Teagasc is that soil fertility has to be a major plank of the new Food Harvest 2025 because it is a basic requirement. There has been a slippage in recent years. I take the points raised about land availability. It is the old conundrum and it goes back to farming not being seen as a business. I am very hopeful that the innovative changes in the budget will reap rewards in time. It may take a few years for that message to get across but I am hopeful.

Deputy Heydon raised the issue of the management of hedging. Insurance schemes are available internationally, some of which are private schemes and many are State-subsidised. There is a significant risk attached because, invariably, the State ends up carrying the can. I refer to problems of moral hazard, for example, from my reading of these schemes. It would have to be an EU-wide scheme rather than just in Ireland or else the scheme would be bankrupt very quickly. The idea of a farmer voluntarily holding case reserves is an inefficient response to the issue.

Deputy Heydon referred to the Leader schemes. Teagasc has very extensive relationships with Leader. We operate through Leader via our options programme by which Teagasc can sit down with a farm family and discuss their options for the future. Some of those options might well involve the development of an on-farm, off-farm business. Having clarified a family's options and looked at the opportunities, we would then pass them on to Leader as one of the key funding agencies. I wish our relationship with Leader were closer and I have argued for that but it is, none the less, very close. Many of our advisers and regional managers are members of Leader boards around the country and I actively encourage that participation. For example, Teagasc was heavily involved in the CEDRA programme along with all those agencies. We try to play the role of honest broker. We have almost daily contact with 40,000 farmers which is a substantial pool and therefore we are a resource which Leader can use.

I take the points made about the beef sector. There is a need for a debate on the significant issues in that sector. I refer to the numerical relationship and that the reduction in beef numbers may be a consequence of an expansion in dairying. The nature of the cow is another issue that farmers have brought to my attention. They ask what is going to happen to the beef industry if there is a greater expansion in cross-bred animals. That is a legitimate point of view which will feature in the Food Harvest 2025 debate. We are very hopeful that research could nuance that relationship between beef and dairy, particularly with regard to sex semen and managing the progeny, the production of male and female animals.

I hope I have dealt with all of the questions raised.

I have an additional question. I probably did not explain myself properly, but I was trying to get across a concept on which Professor Boyle had put his finger, namely, the value of a farmer running a business as a policy maker. Farmers might look at all of the facts, be they financial or based on analysis, and make a decision on them. Many farmers want to engage in the raw digging and data analysis, but by the time they have all of this done, they do not have time to sit down and consider their business as a whole. They are incredibly good at working out financial matters in their heads, but I do not feel the bookkeeping is being done properly. Many years ago a good friend of mine who was farming said to me that the first figure he put into the accounts was what he wanted to earn. One must pay to put the kids through college and for everything else. When I see a reference to the exclusion of farm family labour, it makes me upset because it is not reflective of the basis of a sustainable industry. The figure in question should be taken out and the raw data seen. Does it include the cost of heifer rearing?

Dr. Tom O'Dwyer

No.

How could it not include it? I would love to see the data with everything included. If we had them, we would have a true reflection of the industry. The figure in my head, 40 cent per litre, is more reflective of where we need to be. I know that we are price takers in many respects, but I would hate to feel we are encouraging people to enter the industry, expand too rapidly and take on debt - a big issue - using false promises. It would be very easy for someone to read the documents and say the costs listed were the actual costs and bank on them. We need to be realistic if we are to proceed sustainably.

Professor Gerry Boyle

The difficulty is that we can only impute the family labour cost. That is a variable feast.

With regard to heifer rearing, we have the heifer enterprise recorded separately. I gave the Deputy the estimates. One could certainly add another 10 cent to the cost, on average, for heifer rearing and family labour. It is a ballpark estimate.

My comment was not a criticism but-----

Professor Gerry Boyle

The Deputy is correct. I drew attention to it because it was an important point. Many of our discussions are not about total costs, as we have defined them, but often about variable costs.

Dr. Tom O'Dwyer

I wish to provide some clarification. The reason we present the costs in the way we do is the mix of enterprises on dairy farms varies. Some dairy farmers might have a tillage enterprise alongside a dairy enterprise.

That might make the figures worse.

Dr. Tom O'Dwyer

Perhaps, but for the purposes of comparison, we try to strip out the separate enterprises. We look at the dairy aspect on its own, the tillage aspect on its own, etc.

On the cost of heifer rearing, we have an imputed cost as part of the output, but it is not reflected as a cost. However, it is included in the output, which means that the profit figure has been adjusted.

I wish to pick up on one or two other points made by Deputy Tom Barry. With regard to sustainable investment, I totally agree with his observations. We are absolutely clear in the message we are providing for dairy farmers on prioritising investment. There is a scarce amount of money to be invested and it must be invested where they will obtain the greatest return such as in increasing soil fertility and grazing infrastructure.

The Deputy referred to surge debt. I had not heard that term before and would say it is one I will be using. Equally as challenging as the set of circumstances in which a farmer decides to take on the investment out of cash flow is where he or she decides to expand following a good milk price year, such as 2013 and 2014. He or she might decide to keep extra heifers or extra cows and build a milking parlour. If, however, he or she was to suddenly face a year with a poor milk price, he or she would have no cash reserves and would not have gone to the bank to borrow. What would be his or her chances of recapitalising the investment to try to get over the issue? In some ways, farmers who go to the bank and secure funding on the basis of their having put together a strong business plan and who might have a large debt are more robust because they finance their investment properly. This might be worth considering.

I totally agree with the Deputy's comment on the notion of employing a bookkeeper. I fully support this, particularly considering the scale of turnover of some of the larger dairy farmers. In rural towns there are small businesses, including hairdressers, grocers and plumbers, that employ bookkeepers and the turnover of which is lower than that of some larger dairy farms. It is absolutely mind-boggling. There are businesses such as IFAC offering the service. I firmly believe there is a role for part-time bookkeepers, as the Deputy outlined.

On the message for colleges, the tools for dairy farmers we are using such as the profit monitor, the cost control planner and business planning tools are being used by dairy students in colleges.

Determining future herd size is like asking the length of a piece of string. The figures we have presented show that, for the average farmer in 2014, the margin per cow was €800. Eighty cows by €800 is €64,000 in dairy income alone. There is a single farm payment on top of this and perhaps a margin in the replacement enterprise. There is a sizeable income from an 80-cow herd. However, the margin for the bottom 10% is €400 per cow. Therefore, to have the same margin, those in this category need to double their herd size. The challenge facing dairy farmers is whether they want to farm very well with 60 or 80 cows, with the ultimate ambition of being in the top 10%, or farm with a herd twice the size but with a lower level of performance.

Deputies Tom Barry and Martin Heydon referred to schemes in other countries. In Australia we are aware that there is a farm management deposit scheme to help with volatility. In New Zealand there is an income equalisation deposit account. Both countries have been coping with milk price volatility for more years than we have in Ireland. These schemes have proved very attractive to dairy farmers.

The other points raised have been covered.

The issue of the total cost involves a mindset people need to grasp. An old concept which might have been used by ACOT was that of standard man days. Using it, one could very easily calculate the amount of time involved and extrapolate from it the actual cost of production, even on mixed-use farms, irrespective of the set-up. It may be an old principle, but it is certainly applicable.

I thank both Professor Boyle and Dr. O'Dwyer. The key to the biggest indigenous industry is knowledge. It is matter of knowledge transfer. We sometimes tend to forget that Teagasc is a rare breed, particularly in terms of research. It draws almost all of its funding from independent sources. Certainly, if it is funded by industry, it is done in such a way as to ensure it remains completely independent. The approach to the dairy herd is typical in this regard. Any organisation involved in research, giving advice, training and education in what is our biggest indigenous industry has to be a key to everything that happens in the industry.

The committee might have focused a little on carbon and greenhouse gas emissions. We produced a land use report, to which both Teagasc and the EPA contributed. Last week I presented it to Commissioner Hogan. It forms the basis of many of the arguments made. Soil science, farm management and animal herd health status are keys, as is the efficiency of food production. It is exactly as Professor Boyle said on the basis of emissions per kilo of product produced. There is no point in giving up on this simply because it reduces the overall percentage.

If one were to be flippant about it, if German car manufacturers moved here, we could reduce the percentage in a simpler way and achieve the same target. However, that is too simplistic for this serious matter.

Members will have found today's meeting refreshing. Teagasc, alongside policy-makers, is important in terms of changing the mindset. Collectively, we point the ship in a particular direction. We have spent far too long, and still do, concentrating on what the best outcome from payment schemes might be as opposed to having better before bigger, skill before scale and improving behind-the-gate efficiencies. The only way we will fulfil all the aspirations for rural development is to have a healthy agricultural community that makes money from what it produces. Otherwise, this will not work. We are too dependent on fighting a battle every five or six years on a Common Agricultural Policy that will inevitably change into a public good policy. We need a land use policy that goes beyond CAP. The Commission for the Economic Development of Rural Areas goes a good way towards this. In a countryside like ours, agriculture has been key but overlooked in recent times because of industries that appreciated land values in other ways that proved a folly. We should revert to the original principle. I hope that our committee will keep this issue in the public domain. Teagasc's contributions by way of its annual report and its presentation today are important.

I was going to ask one or two questions on the issue of schemes. Teagasc should be consulted by departmental officials on the design of the green low-carbon agri-environment scheme, GLAS, as it will be Teagasc that will implement it. This is not a criticism of anyone, but doing this would streamline the process so that, when the closing date arrives, people will be able to meet it. As the key planner, it is important that Teagasc be involved with departmental officials throughout.

That is my piece. We will adjourn for a fortnight. We will have no meeting next week because it happens to be our national day, so I wish everyone an enjoyable day, but not too enjoyable.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.55 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 24 March 2015.
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