Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine debate

Horse Industry in Ireland: Discussion (Resumed)

Chairman

I remind members, witnesses and those in the Gallery to turn off their mobile telephones. I welcome from the Irish Thoroughbred Breeders' Association, Mr. Derek Iceton, chairman and Mr. Shane O'Dwyer, manager; and from the County and City Managers Association, Mr. Brendan McGrath, chairman of the association's environment, climate change and emergency planning committee and chief executive of Galway County Council; Mr. Joe Boland, director of services, environment, Kildare County Council; Mr. Garrett Shine, Louth county veterinary officer; Mr. John McCarthy, Limerick veterinary officer; and from the Irish Horse Welfare Trust, Ms Jane Myerscough, chairperson; Ms Sharon Power, co-founder and Ms Claire Owens, welfare officer; from the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, Dr. Andrew Kelly, chief executive officer and Ms Barbara Bent, chair of the ISPCA board of directors.

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee. As they are aware the committee is looking at the wider horse industry in Ireland where policy can be optimised to further develop the sector as a whole. Last week Horse Sport Ireland and the Irish Bookmakers Association appeared before the committee. Today, by the nature of the witnesses, we have a particular emphasis on animal welfare issues. I am sure the Irish Thoroughbred Breeders Association are equally interested in animal welfare issues.

I advise the witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members have already been reminded of their responsibility with regard to privilege at the earlier session.

I will invite one representative from each group to make an opening statement. I will call Mr. Iceton, Mr. McGrath, Ms Myerscough and Dr. Kelly in that order.

I now invite Mr. Iceton to make his opening statement.

Mr. Derek Iceton

My name is Derek Iceton. I am chairman of the Irish Thoroughbred Breeders Association, an association which looks after the interests of thoroughbred breeders both nationally and internationally.

The thoroughbred breeding industry is unique in that worldwide we are self-regulating and set structures so that we can trade and race with each other. On behalf of breeders, the Irish Thoroughbred Breeders Association will represent Irish breeders to make sure that they are not compromised in this export-driven business. This year every country that breeds thoroughbreds will come to Ireland in September where we will collectively agree on principles for equine genome testing for binding international agreements.

Such undertakings cannot be taken on by Horse Racing Ireland or the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

We are very active on behalf of breeders nationally and I will mention a few things we have achieved recently. We have led the discussions on the implementation of the new EU VAT rules on behalf of the breeding and racing industry, at great expense to our association. We also led the alliance for racing, where owners, breeders, trainers, jockeys, stable staff and so on came together to lobby the Government. We continue to have seminars and meetings to keep breeders fully up to date on issues and to help them run their enterprises profitably. We run winter workshops for veterinarians and breeders to ensure the latest best practice is upheld. These workshops are responsive to current issues as well as for informing about new practices. We represent our members on the boards of Horse Racing Ireland, Weatherbys Ireland, Goods, Irish Thoroughbred Marketing, veterinary liaison committees, European Federation of Thoroughbred Breeders' Associations and so on. We continually strive to improve the fortunes of the National Hunt breeding sector, and the recent introduction of a proper series of races for National Hunt fillies has been very successful. The youth section of our association, the YITBA, runs apprenticeships, career advice and workshops. It is the fastest growing part of our association.

The Irish thoroughbred industry is a world leader. Indeed the description of "bred in Ireland" has the same cache as "made in Germany" for manufactured goods. It reminds me of a speech made by the former President Mary McAleese when she said no matter where she went in the world there were the three M's - monks, music and mares. The Irish thoroughbred industry employs 17,000 people with an incredible percentage of added Irish value. Not only are our horses renowned, so are our horsemen and horsewomen. We have been very fortunate that the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine has always been open to us. I look forward to future co-operation.

There are issues of concern. There is a significant lack of profitability in the industry. The number of breeders and the number of mares are down 40% on the figures of some years ago. The market has not increased enough to justify a great expansion in foal numbers, but the loss of so many breeders is an issue, as is the increasing age profile of the national brood mare band. There is just not enough investment in young breeding stock. Those who have seen the production of thoroughbred foals as another source of farm income are walking away, as are their sons and daughters, simply because the cost of replacement breeding stock is hard to justify at the lower end of the market. While the world industry screams for first class quality, the returns to the average commercial breeder often make it a business that is difficult to justify. For the smaller breeder to replenish breeding stock, they have to compete actively on a world price basis to improve their standard.

The Irish Thoroughbred Breeders' Association, in its budget submission, has asked for an enhanced depreciation scheme to maintain profits being ploughed back into the stud, while at the same time seeking only to improve the quality in our main markets. We have significant issues with both German and Italian racing, both of which are in steep decline. Previously, Italy had been a most significant customer not only for the Irish bloodstock but also as great users of Irish stallions and livery, but now that business is now down to a trickle. British racing, while it is a world leader, offers prize money that is far too low and this in turn leads to a poor return for breeders. France is the best-funded racing nation in Europe through its very lucrative incentives to French owners and breeders. That makes it very difficult for us to trade in France. When one trades in France, it will be at a significant discount. I will elaborate on this when I come to deal with the National Hunt. There are some great opportunities. The Middle East, Asia and North America are great markets and the returns are significant. However in the Middle Eastern and Asia markets we are head to head against the Australian bloodstock and racing industry which is incredibly well-resourced.

Health issues are paramount and we need to demonstrate the health status of our industry worldwide. To that end, the industry has set up the Irish Equine Centre based in Kill. This is a world centre of excellence in equine veterinary diagnostics. It provides an exceptional horse-based focus in maintaining our health status and it is proactive in dealing with any challenges. The breeding industry itself provides €800,000 per annum from the foal levy to fund this centre. This is many times what the racing industry donates directly, but to me the issue is that the non-thoroughbred industry gets away scot free. If the State were to provide a similar service, it would cost many timers its current funding. I ask the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to make a promise of significant ongoing funding to the Irish Equine Centre.

With regard to the non-thoroughbred industry, we have very serious concerns about the low percentage of horses being registered. My chief worry is that disease does not discriminate between thoroughbred and non-thoroughbred horses, and an outbreak of disease in the country would be a significant issue for us and our export market. Furthermore, although I realise we live in a single market, I encourage the Department to have more spot checks on horses being imported through our ports. We have an issue with some overly zealous implementation of veterinary medication rules set down by the EU but implemented by the Irish Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. In each of the last two seasons, manufacturers have run out of stocks but similar products freely available in Europe for horses have not been allowed to be imported to Ireland.

With regard to the National Hunt breeding industry, we are again under serious competitive pressure from the French. That country has a myriad of incentives such as breeder bonuses, and it channels a significant amount of money back to breeders. We are in open competition with them and getting squeezed. I instance the derby sale in Fairyhouse, where the number of French animals has risen exponentially over the past number of years.

We have a wonderful industry and we are world leaders in the area, but there are challenges that need to be addressed now. The breeding industry is basically self-funded, with little input from Horse Racing Ireland, except in the contribution to Irish thoroughbred marketing, which we co-fund with the body. The Irish Thoroughbred Breeders Association is a 32-county body democratically elected among its members and responsive to the needs of Irish breeders.

Mr. Brendan McGrath

On behalf of the sector we were delighted to accept the invitation of the committee and make a presentation today. We represent the City and County Management Association. I am the chief executive of Galway City Council; we have not taken over the county.

Deputy Denis Naughten

It is a sensitive issue in some parts of the country.

Chairman

It is written in front of me.

Mr. Brendan McGrath

We have provided a presentation that summarises the key points for members. Our statement is a summary of two detailed submissions we have made to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine on 27 April 2014 and 25 February 2015. We acknowledge that this is a very complex area of activity and it is very important, as the horse is very important to the status of Ireland both nationally and internationally. We understand completely that there are reputational issues arising from horse welfare.

The role of local authorities relates largely to the implementation of the Control of Horses Act 1996. In this context, the problem of stray and unwanted horses has become particularly pronounced in the post-Celtic tiger period. Regrettably, the number of horses seized and euthanised in recent years speaks for itself, rising from 2,936 in 2011 to a current high, as of 2014, of 4,923. Sadly, included in the above is an increasing number of dead horses, which clearly heightens animal welfare concerns, and some of these instances have featured in the media. In addition, there is a perception on the part of some members of the public, as well as animal welfare groups, that local authorities are wilfully putting down horses and dogs that could be rehomed elsewhere. This is not the case. There is also some evidence to suggest that the sector is being used as a rather expensive disposal service. Many of the horses seized are in poor condition and few are microchipped.

The main reason for such seizures arise from public safety concerns. There are obvious dangers associated with unsupervised horses in public areas and, in particular, straying on public roads. This task is carried out by impounding contractors, following a number of tender competitions. The costs involved are considerable and cover such aspects as call-out, seizure, transport, delivery, microchipping, veterinary inspections, etc. The spectrum of costs will generally range from €500 to €1,100 per equine. The problem arises in particular in urban and peri-urban areas. There is also evidence to suggest that there can be links with criminality. Until recent years, costs were recouped in full from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. However, the level of subvention has been gradually eroded to the extent that much of the cost is now borne by the local government sector.

In truth, local authorities do not have the sufficient professional and technical resources to deal with the increasing incidence of horse welfare issues.

Key legislation in this area includes (a) the Pounds (Provision and Maintenance) Act 1935, as amended, (b) the Control of Horses Act 1996, sections 33 and 37, (c) the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013, (d) the European Union (Identification of Equidae) Regulations 2014 and the Control Of Places Where Horses Are Kept Regulations 2014. The chief executive of each local authority may authorise staff in accordance with the legislation listed at (a), (b) (c) and (d).

The third aspect is how taxpayers' money is spent. Depending on the number of horses seized in a given year, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine annual subvention will range between €2 million and €3 million, with individual local authorities covering the balance. Seizing and impounding horses are time consuming and resource intensive tasks. It is a high risk activity that often requires Garda assistance. Overall costs will vary from €500 to €1,100 per horse, with the Department granting a maximum subvention of €375 per equine, leaving a substantial deficit to be made up by the local authority sector. Most local authorities use contractors for the purposes of seizing horses and providing pound facilities. A national tender is being formulated, although there are a limited number of contractors entering the market. This relates to a number of factors, including, in particular, the skills required to deal with fractious horses, potentially volatile owners, as well as the requirement to provide secure pounds for the mandatory holding periods. There are also significant health and safety risks and, accordingly, insurance can be very costly.

The fourth aspect is proposals for improvement. The following approaches should be prioritised: address the causes rather than symptoms of the problem; vigorous enforcement, which could involve, for example, a task force for each county or area made up of the local authorities, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the Garda to target groups of horses in unsuitable settings such as urban lands, etc. to ensure enforcement of all the new regulations; greater recourse to local by-laws, particularly the designation of exclusion zones; and review of the Control of Horses Act, as outlined in the CCMA submission. In this context, attached to our most recent submission was a series of recommendations to the Department for consideration in the event of future legislative changes.

On the Animal Health and Welfare Act, there is a need for a service level agreement between the Department and the local authority sector to complement arrangements between the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the ISPCA and the DSPCA. In this regard, each entity would be clear regarding its roles and responsibilities to avoid duplication or omission. Current arrangements between the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and local authorities in terms of cross-compliance on environmental issues might be cited as a very worthwhile precedent.

It is noted that, consequent to the passing of the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is the primary Department with responsibility for all aspects of animal health. It also has the capacity, particularly with agricultural welfare officers, to deal with such matters. However, addressing welfare issues in certain urban areas can be very challenging. We should bear in mind that ensuring animal welfare can be a particularly labour-intensive activity in the context of investigations, veterinary interventions, follow-up inspections, etc. Council staff respond to welfare issues from time to time, but the broader role of the local government sector in terms of the Animal Health and Welfare Act needs to be better defined. Most local authorities have one permanent veterinary officer whose primary duties which take more than 90% of the time relate to a service level agreement with the Food Safety Authority of Ireland. Dog control represents another significant duty.

Despite vigorous enforcement of the Control of Horses Act, it is clear that the problem of stray or unwanted horses, as well as associated welfare issues, have not abated, despite all efforts, and it seems that the problem is growing. Also, we should bear in mind the considerable expenditure incurred to date. It is the strong view of the County and City Managers Association that there should be a greater focus on the fundamental causes rather than the symptoms of the problem. In this context, it would be particularly worthwhile to carry out independent research rather than rely fully on an anecdotal approach to the matter. In all likelihood, the reasons relate to a combination of the following factors: cultural or status issues attaching to horse ownership; indiscriminate breeding or a refusal to castrate stallions; supplying the food chain, an activity which is now highly regulated; the breeding lifespan; development lands and adverse possession; a culture of carelessness; anticipation of a national cull and association with potential criminality. There may be other reasons also. Current arrangements are far too reactive and a more considered and collaborative approach is required. In turn, this would likely involve smarter use of legislative interventions, possible introduction of a voluntary surrender scheme, new initiatives in the area of education and awareness, as well as an enhanced role for the voluntary sector.

There are a range of stakeholders involved, including the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, the local authority sector, the Garda, the Irish and Dublin societies for the prevention of cruelty to animals, other welfare groups, representatives of horse owners, the farming community and, possibly, NAMA. In this context, our association wishes to emphasise the importance of a collaborative and co-ordinated approach, as no one entity is able to deal fully with the overall problem, having regard, in particular, to different roles and responsibilities assigned to the various agencies under legislation. There is also a need for a rigorous assessment of current arrangements, better analysis of the extent of the problem and some innovative thinking in addressing the complex issues involved. Our association, being representative of the local authority sector, is wholeheartedly willing to participate in this process.

In the past two years or so the County and City Managers Association has been engaging actively both at a national and strategic level, as well as locally, with key stakeholders. In this context, we have provided copies of two submissions, dated 27 April 2014 and 25 February 2015, for the Department in the context of the ongoing review of the Control of Horses Act. These documents are drawn, in particular, from interaction with the Department, the Garda and local groups, and summarise the position of the local government sector. In addition, our association would be more than pleased to offer further assistance both to the Department and the joint committee. We hope the committee will find the accompanying presentation helpful.

Specifically, with regard to the four areas of interest to the joint committee, I will set out our summary position. The first is the policy on horse welfare and how it is implemented. The local authority sector does not have a specific policy on horse welfare as the primary focus has always been on control. However, horses dealt with under the Control of Horses Act are frequently welfare-compromised. The local authorities have focused on their specific duties relating to control, dealing mainly with nuisance, stray and unwanted horses and, therefore, will mainly encounter welfare issues by default. The Department, typically, deals with animals in a farm environment, whereas local authorities have more experience of operating in an urban environment which, regrettably, is where much of the abuse takes place. The animal charities and other welfare groups do, however, often become involved with welfare matters in the urban setting, which is to be welcomed, provided it is properly structured. The Department has formalised this arrangement, to some extent, by entering into a service level agreement with the Irish and Dublin societies for the prevention of cruelty to animals.

The second aspect is legislative underpinning.

Chairman

I thank Mr. McGrath for his opening statement and invite Ms Myerscough to make hers.

Ms Jane Myerscough

The opening statement of the Irish Horse Welfare Trust will be made by its CEO, Ms Sharon Power.

Ms Sharon Power

On behalf of the Irish Horse Welfare Trust, IHWT, I thank the joint committee for inviting us to participate in this meeting. I will start by providing some background information on the IHWT.

The Irish Horse Welfare Trust was established in 1989 and is the largest and leading equine charity in Ireland. It operates from a farm in County Wicklow and is recognised and supported to some degree by the horse industry. It is also supported annually by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine by way of ex gratia funding.

Approximately 80 horses and ponies are cared for at any one time at the centre. The trust is largely involved in rescue, rehabilitation and re-homing, but in the past ten years it has also been involved in education and equine welfare horse projects, mainly targeted at the 15 to 22 year age group. For example, in Limerick we have put 84 young people who are an urban horse-owning community through FETAC-accredited qualifications, three of whom have gone on to be jockeys, one of whom is a successful jockey in Kentucky. We also work in areas of Dublin, including Finglas, Darndale and Clondalkin. The Finglas project, also known as the Dunsink project, has been referred to by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Simon Coveney, as a model of best practice. Fingal County Council has significantly decreased its annual costs associated with stray and wandering horses in the past few years and been commended for its progressive approach in this regard.

The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine provided funding this year to Irish Horse Welfare Trust in respect of the operation of five micro-chipping clinics to encourage compliance with the new legislation. These clinics were located in Wicklow, Cork, Offaly and Tipperary. We also have a follow-up plan to operate castration clinics in those areas. Unfortunately, many of the local authorities in those counties do not have a designated staff member with whom we can deal directly. This is a matter on which the local authorities need to be more proactive.

The next slide is a photograph of some of the boys who have attended courses at our farm. The next issue for Irish Horse Welfare Trust is responsibility for horses. Obviously, the local councils have responsibility for the enforcement of the Control of Horses Act. We all know there are significant costs involved in the seizure, detention and destruction of hundreds, if not thousands, of equines annually. There is a never-ending cycle of production of mainly poor-quality stock, which is often then mistreated or neglected and picked up by Irish Horse Welfare Trust and other charities. The seizure and destruction of equines incurs huge costs year-on-year, with an ever-ending circle of breeding, impounding and destruction. This has been ongoing now for more than 20 years.

Managed horse projects and education have proven successful in reducing the numbers of stray and unwanted horses in the areas in which we have worked and in increasing welfare standards. The Irish Horse Welfare Trust is prepared to engage with all local authorities to find solutions and in this regard has already approached some local authorities around the country. We have also been contacted by some local authorities seeking help but we are unable to work with all councils unless provided with the resources to do so.

The Irish Horse Welfare Trust plans to roll out a national equine welfare education programme through which it will work with local authorities interested in providing education and training for young people in the area of equine care and welfare. If this is to be successful, it will require buy-in by all local authorities in the problem areas. This project would require financial support from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine for the provision of a training facility at our farm and to help meet the cost of courses, which could also be part-funded by other stakeholders in education, health and community agencies.

The next slide shows the types of horses and cases with which we deal that would otherwise be picked up by the pound. In regard to the last picture, which is of a stray horse that was injured behind a factory, many people were involved in this case, including a local volunteer, who monitored the horse until such time as it reached an area where it could be caught, staff from IHWT, two members of An Garda Síochána and a veterinary surgeon. This operation also took a whole day because, as the horse was injured, the situation was critical. The next slide is a photograph of a horse in a river, which appears to be dead but made a full recovery. It had been ridden around by young fellows, following which it collapsed in a river. The next slide is a photograph of a horse that had a broken leg, probably for almost a year.

The Irish Horse Welfare Trust currently runs an equine care and welfare course. Leaving aside all of the available formal training, including the BHS, it is well recognised that there is a lack of education at a lower level, a need that is currently being met by IHWT. We also provide accredited education in association with FETAC in the area of stable and yard routines, courses levels 3 and 4 and have also conducted FETAC horse sport riding courses. All of this training is provided in areas of Dublin and Limerick. We have established links with RACE and the Association of Irish Racehorse Owners. Further links on education could be formed with Horse Sport Ireland. We have a huge population of young people in urban areas that have a genuine passion for horses but a lack of education in terms of how to care for them. They are also interested in working within our horse industry, if given the necessary training.

There is no classroom facility at the Irish Horse Welfare Trust farm. As our classroom sessions are currently run in the hay barn, this means they are confined to being held during the summer months. We also have a farmhouse that requires renovation, in respect of which plans have been drawn up and the estimated cost is €90,000 to €100,000. This project was previously deemed eligible for Leader funding.

We will make a submission to the Department, probably in the next week, seeking funding to proceed with the building project. This will avoid wasting further time in rolling out our education programmes for urban communities.

On the Dunsink horse project, worldwide negative publicity followed an article carried on the front page of The New York Times which showed a photograph of an injured horse at Dunsink. This resulted in the Irish Horse Welfare Trust engaging with Fingal County Council and horse owners in the area. Members of the Dunsink horse project must follow membership rules and a code of conduct. Each equine is microchipped and allocated a passport and the premises is registered. Members may not own stallions - the IHWT castrated 13 stallions as part of the project - and breeding is prohibited. Each member has access to grazing, water and fodder storage, as well as a stable when required. Manure is removed regularly and each member pays a weekly subscription of €10 for hay. Educational courses are held on site and at the IHWT farm in Woodenbridge where examinations are also held. Twenty-two young men have completed FETAC level 4 qualifications as part of the project. Unfortunately, the examinations were held in the IHWT hay barn because we do not have classrooms. Our welfare officer, Ms Claire Owens, is involved in weekly management of the project.

Education, training and horse projects offer the only long-term solution to the issues surrounding horses in urban environments. They also reduce the number of illegally kept equines and promote compliance with legislation. The projects also reduce the number of horses seized and destroyed, increase welfare standards, reduce costs for local authorities and provide education and training for young people, with a view to securing careers in the horse industry.

As a County Wicklow-based equine welfare charity working across Ireland, the Irish Horse Welfare Trust is actively seeking to establish a national equine education and training programme aimed primarily at educating and training young people within urban horse-owning communities. The trust needs to refurbish its farmhouse to do this and has developed a project to achieve this objective, for which it will request the Department's support. We ask the joint committee to support the project.

In recent years we have been experiencing an equine welfare crisis, with thousands of horses put down each year and thousands more suffering as a result. Ireland has experienced significant reputational damage as a result of negative publicity about horse welfare. As the land of the horse, we must pull together and address these problems.

Dr. Andrew Kelly

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to appear before the joint committee.

The Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, ISPCA, is recognised as Ireland's national animal welfare organisation. It has been providing front-line animal welfare services for more than 65 years. It is the umbrella organisation for 20 local animal welfare organisations across Ireland. I am also representing these bodies today.

The ISPCA is concerned about the welfare of all animals in all circumstances. We recognise that animals will be used for a wide range of purposes in society and strive to ensure the welfare of these animals is protected. The society operates two rescue centres, the National Animal Centre in Keenagh, County Longford and an equine rescue centre in Mallow, County Cork. Both facilities deal with animals that are most in need, primarily those that have been seized or surrendered to our inspectors, abandoned, neglected or cruelly treated. The National Animal Centre deals with horses, donkeys, dogs, cats and other species, while the equine centre in County Cork deals mostly with equines, although it also has holding facilities for a small number of dogs. The centre has capacity for approximately 20 equines, while the equine centre in County Cork has capacity for around 50 equines. As such, the ISPCA can only deal with a small number of equines at any given time. Our role is to rescue, rehabilitate and re-home, where possible, but we also take difficult decisions to euthanise animals that cannot be re-homed responsibly.

The Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals is funded mainly by public donations, although we also receive an ex gratia grant from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. We do not receive any funding from the equine industry.

The ISPCA operates a national cruelty helpline which accepts calls from members of the public reporting incidences of animal cruelty, abandonment or neglect. Such occurrences can also be reported via the ISPCA website. In 2014 the helpline received more than 21,000 calls, of which approximately 10% related to equines.

As some members will be aware, the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals has a team of only six uniformed animal welfare inspectors, who cover only 14 counties. We are in the process of recruiting two more inspectors, one for Limerick and a second for Waterford and south Tipperary, which will increase our team to eight inspectors covering 17 counties. Our ambition is to cover all 26 counties in due course.

In May 2014, following the introduction of the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013, the ISPCA entered into a service agreement with the Minister which resulted in ISPCA inspectors becoming authorised officers under the Act. This gives ISPCA inspectors certain statutory powers, including the power to enter land and seize animals under some circumstances and issue animal welfare and improvement notices, the latter being a highly useful tool for inspectors. There are exceptions to our authorisation and it is important to list these. ISPCA inspectors do not exercise a function in respect of farms that rear animals for commercial food consumption or any horse on such a farm; horse racing events; stud farms; premises of horse trainers; or greyhound racing establishments. Other authorised officers deal with these areas. Since becoming authorised officers in May 2014, ISPCA inspectors have initiated more than 45 prosecutions under the Animal Health and Welfare Act, three of which have been finalised in court with positive outcomes. We may have wished for higher penalties but that is another issue. Our inspectors, who are on the front line, have an impact. This year, we published our first inspectorate report detailing the cases initiated by us and finalised in court in 2014. We will publish an annual report on the cases finalised in court in future years.

The ISPCA has dealt with significant equine welfare issues over the years. Between 2008 and 2014, the ISPCA national cruelty helpline received 10,374 complaints regarding equine welfare, giving an average of 1,729 per annum. The written submission features a graph showing a sharp increase in the number of calls between 2008 and 2010. While this appears to have reached a plateau, we continue to receive a large number of calls.

Over the same period - 2008 to 2014 - ISPCA inspectors seized or had surrendered to them 401 equines, ranging from donkeys to ponies and thoroughbreds, and covering both rural and urban areas. The numbers seized or surrendered increased from 13 in 2008 to 103 in 2014, a significant increase. By the end of May 2015, the ISPCA had already seized 51 equines. While the number of calls received has declined slightly, the calls appear to be more serious, as are their welfare implications, and we are seizing more animals. As such, the trend is continuing.

Many of the equines we deal with had been abandoned and the owners could not be traced either because they were not microchipped or because the last known owner, when traced, claimed the animal had been sold on. Less than 10% of the equines seized by the ISPCA are thoroughbred or ex-racehorses. The horses we see are suffering from a range of problems, including starvation, hoof problems and injuries.

The ISPCA welcomes and supports the raft of legislation now available, including the Animal Health and Welfare Act, the Control of Horses Act and legislation on the registration of equine premises, microchipping, passporting and transfer of ownership regulations. However, we are concerned that a lack of enforcement by the Department has resulted in widespread non-compliance.

The ISPCA has long called for transfer of ownership regulations, which placed a responsibility on both the vendor and the buyer of an equine, to update the passport details held by the passport issuing office. We were pleased last July when the passport regulations were upgraded. SI 189 of 2014 placed responsibility on both the vendor and owner to update the record in the passport.

However, this statutory instrument was replaced in December 2014 by SI No. 601 which came into force on 1 January 2015 and returned responsibility to the buyer only. Although the vendor has to retain records, he or she does not have to pass them on to the passport issuing office. This was a large step backwards in the ISPCA’s opinion. Now, when we find a horse that has been microchipped, the last known owners simply say they sold on the animal and that it is no longer their responsibility. That is a big problem for us. We queried this with the Department which informed us that the statutory instrument had been replaced following consultation with stakeholders. We were certainly not consulted on this very important change and, as far as I am aware, neither was any other animal welfare organisation. For equine legislation to have the desired impact, it must be effectively enforced and all equines must be fully traceable throughout their lifetime. From our perspective, traceability equals responsibility. If horses can be traced back to their owners, owners will take responsibility for them. Unfortunately, it is our experience that the level of enforcement varies both between and within counties. There seems to be a lack of consistency between some departmental and local authority veterinary inspectors. It has already been mentioned that local authorities have the power to appoint authorised officers under the Animal Health and Welfare Act. My understanding is that very few have done so, which is not particularly helpful.

I would like to mention three case studies of ex-racehorses, as we are talking about that industry. The first horse was abandoned in County Westmeath in 2013. We were able to trace the last known owner who claimed that the horse had been sold on but could not supply details of the buyer. We subsequently re-homed the horse and there are pictures of it in the document we have submitted to the committee. The second ex-racehorse was abandoned in County Donegal in 2013. We traced the owner who said the horse had been sold on. We subsequently re-homed the horse. The third ex-racehorse was seized in County Carlow in April 2015. Sadly, we had to euthanise this horse to prevent further suffering. In that instance we were able to trace the current owner and I believe a case is being prepared. The ISPCA deals with over 1,700 equine-related calls each year and seized 401 horses between 2008 and 2014, around 10% of which were thoroughbred or ex-racers. In most cases, the last known owners claimed that they had sold on the horse but were unable to provide information on the new owners.

We recommend enforcing existing legislation effectively, which is not happening and not consistent across counties. We would like to see consistency between Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and local authority veterinary inspectors. We would also like to see veterinary inspectors being more proactive. We would further like to see a review of the transfer of ownership regulations. Let us put responsibility on both the vendor and the buyer to update details with the passport issuing office. We would like to see a review of all equine legislation and full consultation, including with animal welfare organisations.

I would like to raise a concern about 2,500 donkeys around the country included in disadvantaged area schemes. We are concerned about what will happen should these schemes be disbanded or scrapped. We anticipate that in time there will be a large welfare problem with these donkeys.

We would like to see more co-operation between the industry and animal welfare organisations. We would like to see the industry support animal welfare organisations and, as I keep saying, to make sure all equines are traceable. We will only be able to do this if the legislation is fully enforced and there is full compliance.

Chairman

I thank Dr. Kelly. We have heard four very comprehensive contributions. Our focus is on the entire horse industry, not just thoroughbreds. Although it so happens that the Irish Thoroughbred Breeders Association is represented today, we had representatives of Horse Board Ireland here last week. As Ms Power said, the reputational damage caused by cruelty and animal welfare issues affects the entire industry and the reputation of the country. That is the issue on which we want to focus and work. The recommendations that have come from all of the representative organisations are very relevant.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I thank the delegates for their presentations. We need to stand back and look at what the joint committee is trying to do. As the Chairman said, we are trying to figure out how to develop the horse industry from top to bottom, while also dealing with what we know is a major issue, namely, that of the urban horse, stray horses, etc.

We should start at the beginning. In life very few things happen without money. A suggestion made to me some time ago which I think is common knowledge was that betting tax could be increased. While the likelihood of getting more Exchequer funding is relatively slight, betting tax might be put back up. A figure of 3% has been mentioned, but we need not become fixated on the figure. We would then have a funding stream which we could use not just for one type of horse but also to resolve issues concerning all horses. Although the horse industry is massive and has massive potential, we have, unfortunately, slipped in recent years owing to changes in European income tax rules, stallion coverings and so on. We live in a very competitive world.

My question to the thoroughbred society is this. Let us suppose there was money available to do it. How would it develop the thoroughbred industry to make it more profitable and competitive worldwide? How would it create more employment? Would extra funding make any difference in that regard or is that not the issue? I ask the same question of the national hunt, special breed, sport horse industry, etc. We are going through every sector, from racehorses down. At times, investing in the horse industry may be more beneficial than investing in multinationals, although I am not setting one against the other. Are there things we could do a lot better to get better economic returns were we to make the required investment and if we had a steady stream of money?

It would be crazy for us not to deal with a problem that causes huge reputational damage and which is also going to take money to solve. Can Mr. McGrath tell me if we have any idea of how many urban horses belong to members of the Traveller community? I remember talking on the telephone to a Galway City Council manager, while I had a Kilkenny man sitting beside me in the car. I said mischievously to the official that taking horses from Travellers was akin to taking hurleys from Kilkenny men. I know that Mr. McGrath is not from Kilkenny but from the neighbouring county of Tipperary and that it might hurt him that I still think Kilkenny is the premier hurling county. There is, however, no point in trying to solve this problem by confiscation after confiscation without dealing with the underlying issue that has been outlined. Members of the Traveller community have an affinity with horses and rather than try to solve the problem by sanctions, we should provide ways by which they could legally access horses in properly supervised conditions.

I have a question for the ISPCA, the Irish Horse Welfare Trust and the local authority managers. If there was a proper funding mechanism and not just a project in Fettercairn or Dunsink and if we were to set up well-managed and well-run horse projects in, or adjacent to, urban communities, which would retain access for these communities which have traditionally been associated with urban horses, do they think it would have a major effect in helping us to allow these communities to enjoy horses in a controlled and positive environment, to reduce criminality and to make it easier to go after the remaining illegal horses and remove them because there would be no support for them? Do we have any idea of the kind of funding that would be needed if we were to set up a string of these horse projects in urban communities? I was involved in trying to set one up in Tralee. There is one in Fettercairn and Finglas was mentioned. Would the groups see that as being a positive plan? In the long term, would it save the State money because we would not spend so much time impounding horses?

I was very interested to hear about the change in the statutory instrument. Certain things happen unbeknownst to us and I am shocked the statutory instrument was changed. The same conditions need to apply to horses that apply to cattle in terms of the animal identification and movement system, AIMS. The minute the animal moves, it should be on the computer and if it is not, the keeper is in trouble. I have always believed we should cut to the chase here and work towards a system in which there is absolute and immediate traceability of horses. People should not be able to say that they do not own the horse, or other such excuses. We need to get to a point where we really clamp down on illegal horses.

Is it the view of the welfare groups and the city managers that it is not possible to clamp down on illegal horses without a regime in place for urban horses and people living in urban areas, particularly for the Traveller community, which has a huge and legitimate affinity with horses, where that regime would be legitimate, legal, properly supervised and properly funded in terms of ongoing capital and current expenditure funding streams? Would they be of the view that it is not possible to have one without the other and that we cannot have a clampdown and enforcement of the law without the legitimate out? I would be interested to know if anybody has costed it so that we have that information when we are putting everything into the 3% imaginary tax we are going to get. As somebody who is not big into betting, I am all for that tax as long as it goes back into the industry and so on. It would be a good way of developing our industry. I am interested in the groups views on this matter. Would it be possible to get a rough costing sometime in the next few weeks, without gilding the lily? I often say if one asks for reasonable money, one might get it, but if one asks for ridiculous money, one will never get it.

Deputy Martin Ferris

I thank all the contributors here today. When they speak about animal and horse welfare, what is quite provoking is how far the system has failed in terms of its responsibility with regard to cruelty and so forth. My first question is for the Irish Thoroughbred Breeders Association. In its presentation it mentioned a sizeable decline in the number of small breeders in particular and the effects that is having on the industry, especially the reputational effect when it goes outside the country and so forth. It also mentioned the prize money factor, particularly in England, the decline in the prize money and the effect that was having on the industry. Would it be fair to say the prize money on this island is having an equal effect on breeders in its association?

I commend Ms Sharon Power for her presentation and the tremendous work her organisation is doing from an educational as well as an animal rights point of view. Would most of the young people in her project be from deprived areas or the Traveller community or would it be widespread? I lived on a local authority housing estate for a long part of my life on which there were Traveller families living. Traveller families have a tradition of owning horses and it is my experience that they treat horses as well as they treat members of their own families. There is that connection and relationship.

Is it fair to say most of the cruelty we see is associated with abandoned horses? Horses have been abandoned and abused terribly, as a consequence.

In his presentation Mr. Kelly mentioned traceability and responsibility. I concur that the lack of traceability or identification leads to cruelty because no one is held accountable for it and there are no sanctions. Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív mentioned that we should do something similar to what we do with cattle. I concur. Every single calf born is more or less tagged right away and wherever it moves from that date on is known and traceable. We should look to do something similar with horses.

On enforcement and penalties, if we were to have regulations in place, we would also have to have sanctions and penalties. What are the delegates' views on the issue?

Each year money is allocated to Horseracing Ireland, Bord na gCon and so forth. Perhaps we should look at whether some of the money allocated should be made available to those who are doing tremendous work to promote horse welfare.

I would like to hear from all of the delegates on harness racing, in respect of which there seems to be a blockage, which I perceive to be a matter of status. I am reliably told that it is a lucrative as well as a popular form of racing in France and other countries in Europe, Canada and the southern hemisphere. I see many younger members of the Traveller community where I live on the roads and Banna beach with their sulkies. Their horses are well looked after and treated properly.

I again thank the delegates for their presentations which were thought-provoking.

Deputy Willie Penrose

I thank all of the organisations for their comprehensive and informative presentations which will prove very useful and constructive. The Irish Thoroughbred Breeders Association spoke about a lack of profitability in the industry and the reductions in the numbers of mares, breeders and everything else. Prize money has been reduced, but it is still substantially better than in England. It costs more to bring a horse to many of the tracks in England than the prize money on offer.

That is why there are so many selling races; they are mad to get rid of them. Mr. Iceton indicated that there had been a 40% reduction, but surely one of the problems is that many people are being priced out of ownership. Has he any comment on that? There has been a huge reduction in the number of both individual and syndicated owners. Too many people are grabbing from the pot, which is driving out the ordinary people who used to enjoy buying a horse. I am aware that the industry became greedy, not just on one level but at all levels, including the organisational levels, which I spoke about previously. People are priced out of the market.

In their budget submission the Irish Thoroughbred Breeders' Association spoke about enhanced depreciation. Is this the equivalent of a tax incentive or subsidy? I would like Mr. Iceton to expand more on that. I know how things are written off over a period of time, but they are all a cost. Really, that is tax incentivisation. I am not surprised. Horse Racing Ireland does not give owners much money. What is new? I am sure the committee will have an opportunity to examine that in due course.

I visited the Irish Equine Centre in Kill, which has the highest standards. I am surprised that Irish Thoroughbred Breeders' Association is not getting a subvention from them and that nearly all the funding comes from the breeding industry through the foal levy. That is a surprise.

What percentage of non-thoroughbred horses are not being registered? This is extremely important in the context of the points raised about passport regulations. In his presentation, Dr. Andrew Kelly, the chief executive of the ISPCA, spoke about the change in the passport regulation in January. He is absolutely right. The first thing that a person who owns a racehorse has to do is to notify change of ownership, and even if one changes the trainer, one has to notify the authorities. It is amazing that something as important as this is not applied to non-thoroughbred horses.

Deputy Ó Cuív is right to refer to the aims. Everything is computer-generated, and records are there to underpin the traceability from yard to yard and street to street and from house to house. That is the way it should be. We should get to that very comprehensive traceability system that is in place for the bovine industry and it should be applicable to the equine industry at all steps. We have no compunction about making that a very strong recommendation. I am sure the Chairman will deal with that in due course. I would like to know what percentage of non-thoroughbred horses are not being registered. Is this phenomenon increasing? Obviously the disease issue is of great concern to the Irish Thoroughbred Breeders' Association.

The witnesses also referred to the over-zealous implementation of veterinary medication rules set down by the EU but implemented by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. I am not surprised. Sometimes the Department cannot see the wood from the trees, even if is standing at the side of the forest. They have been over-zealous in terms of implementation at various points in time. Mention was made of various things. What type of product have breeders not been able to use, and are they readily available somewhere else? I think they should tell us, as it is very important that we know about those things. We will be dealing with the Department in due course and cross-examining its representatives on what they have to say about this.

I was a member of a local authority for almost two decades, and some things have not changed or altered in the 13-year period since I left. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine devolves responsibility and obligations to local authorities without a concomitant transfer of resources. It is as simple as that. Mr. McGrath is talking about something that costs €900, €1,000 or €1,100, and they get €375. One cannot continue to survive on that, especially at a time of declining resources at local authority level, and there is fierce competition for resources.

Mr. McGrath might be the right person to answer a particular question. There are service-level agreements and there is a rush for somebody to indicate that he or she is doing a great job, or instead, the veterinary officers may be transferred or amalgamated. Am I correct?

I think I have a rough idea. There is a proposal to spread people across six or seven counties. As far as I am concerned, I want to ensure the veterinary officers are retained, and I know from personal experience that the veterinary officer in Westmeath, Mr. Sean Ó Laoide, and his colleagues play a very vital role. We should not mind the idea of rushing around and trying to signal a win in terms of putting people together. Those people, such as Michael King, the veterinary officer in Longford, whom I know, have done tremendous work. They have an array of roles that is not even understood sometimes. I think service-level agreements and the Food Safety Authority of Ireland may be involved in all this, but I want to set down a marker that I would not be happy to see people in headquarters, away from the places where they inspect. The veterinary officers do a lot of work with abattoirs and even small rural abattoirs. We are losing enough activity in rural areas without losing everything.

Veterinary officers play a role in the protection of a vulnerable public when the local authorities are dealing with horses. I certainly agree that the local authorities need proper resources to continue the work they are doing. I note the proposals for improvement, which are useful and which we appreciate.

I saw a reference to the success of the Irish Horse Welfare Trust jockey training programme on Sky television some years ago. Any cost-benefit analysis of the work of the Irish Horse Welfare Trust would show it in a very positive way. Long may it continue with that work. We will take cognisance of the benefits of the horse projects education and training programme in our recommendations.

Dr. Andrew Kelly from the ISPCA made a number of points in addition to the opening statement. I was interested when he spoke about having to deal with a racehorse in Mullingar. I know the ISPCA centre in Keenagh operates at the very top level and one could not praise highly enough the work they do and their raising the funds to do it. Does the ISPCA get grants or only an ex gratia payment to run the centres in Mallow and Keenagh? What level of grant aid is available from the Department to deal with abandoned and-or neglected animals and animals subjected to cruelty? The work of the ISPCA is not confined to equines as I know it does a tremendous amount of work with cats, dogs and various other animals in Keenagh.

Like my colleagues I was somewhat taken aback by the change in the regulations. I think, Chairman, that we should explore the reason for the change. If one has a passport, one has to know who is involved at every step of the process. We could examine and explore the Equidae (Transfer of Ownership) (No. 2) Regulations that have come into effect and the rationale for that change in the context of what has been brought very forcefully to our attention in today's presentations.

I thank all the witnesses for coming before the committee and giving us the benefit of their expertise. The presentations are food for thought.

Deputy Martin Heydon

I thank all the representatives who have come before the committee and made very interesting presentations. First and foremost it is important to acknowledge that. We have had quite an array of presentations both today and on Tuesday last. Many of the issues raised come under the remit of Horse Racing Ireland, HRI, and the dialogue and giving people the opportunity to put their viewpoint across will play a key role.

In terms of funding the horse and greyhound industry, I acknowledge the Government made a significant increase in funding in the last budget with a view to increasing it on a multi-annual basis over the next few years. That is important. With the extension of the taxation to online remote bookmakers, which we discussed here last week, that brings in more than €10 million per annum. That has brought extra funding into the equation, and that was done in the face of Opposition parties calling for cuts at the same time.

I will make my comments in the order in which the presentations are made and I will begin by putting some questions to Mr. Iceton. I am concerned about the statistics in terms of the pressure that is being borne by small breeders and the fall in numbers in terms of both the National Hunt and the other side. This is an area that has supplemented farm income for many years. I do not know if the statistics have changed, but 90% of breeders had four or fewer mares and they generally had farms as well. Friends of my age who are engaged in farming and whose families keep horses say that as soon as they take over the farm the horse will be gone because they see that business as hardship and there may not be a return from it. Does it come down to the return, or is there more to it than money? Mr. Iceton made a comparison with the French-bred animals that were in the Fairyhouse sales, but the French have a different funding mechanism in terms of betting tax and parimutuel betting, and we will never be able to compete with that with the existing structures we have inherited. How do we compare with countries such as Britain on that one? What more can we do to help the smaller breeders? Is it purely a question of finance in regard to the return they get, and how do we address that? We have to acknowledge the intrinsic role that small breeders play in the breeding industry. Is this something on which a case could be put to Horse Racing Ireland to seek funding from the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund to go towards further initiatives or towards expanding on the initiatives Mr. Iceton mentioned?

Mr. Iceton touched on the foal levy. I am aware of some opposition from smaller breeders to the foal levy structure at present. I would be interested to hear Mr. Iceton's views on the suggestion of replacing the foal levy with a mandatory sales levy.

Ireland's disease-free status is hugely important for us and we may take it for granted. Mr. Iceton might comment on the importance of that to the equine industry. What would the implications be for the industry if something negative were to happen in that regard?

Mr. McGrath also gave a detailed presentation. I strongly concur with that he said. We need to focus on the fact that prevention is always being better than cure. The figures he gave point to a significant issue and trend, and that must be dealt with. The presentations that followed Mr. McGrath's also touched on that. We cannot spend our time asking what we will do with the thousands of horses. We need to examine the root causes of the problem and put significant resources into making sure that these horses do not manifest in the first place. That is crucially important. Otherwise, the problem will continue and we will always be two steps behind chasing it up. My view on this is that horses should not be in urban areas. They are not designed to be there, and I say that as someone who lives in such an area. Comments were made about tradition, but the tradition when it comes to horses is that they were in green fields with lots of space. That needs to be our starting point. Can Mr. McGrath indicate whether there are spot checks in urban areas where there is a significant intensity of horse-keeping? There are certain pockets of urban areas in my constituency in Kildare where there are many horses, and they cause problems for people who live in estates. I note Mr. McGrath said in his presentation that when many of these horses are seized they are not microchipped. Is this being actively pursued to ensure that they are microchipped before they are seized? Are there checks to ensure that horses are microchipped and, if they are not, are there repercussions? Mr McGrath pointed out that the current arrangements are more reactive. That suggests we that are not proactively carrying out on-the-spot checks, which is an issue.

The representative of Irish Horse Welfare Trust mentioned that the programme will require more buy-in. The representative from the ISPCA said there was lack of enforcement. We can see a crossover there and we can see the picture. That leads me on to the point that was mentioned about legislative interventions. The witnesses referred in their presentation to the legislative underpinning, and a list of Acts is provided. Are they suggesting that changes need to be made to those Acts, or are the changes being made to the Animal Health and Welfare Act not sufficient?

I accept the point that local authorities are under funding pressure as they try to deal with the end problem. Do the delegates believe the legislation listed needs to be amended and changed to facilitate the early intervention needed to minimise the end problem? Do they have the legislation they need at their disposal? If so, is it reasonable to suggest it is purely a matter of financing and putting a better structural arrangement in place? Is there a service level agreement between the Department and the local authorities? It would be a concern if no such agreement were in place. The Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013 allowed for the appointment of authorised officers. The delegates might outline how many local authorities have made such appointments, to their knowledge.

I would like to comment on the presentation made by the representatives of the Irish Horse Welfare Trust. I am happy to support the trust's efforts to renovate its farmhouse because it is a worthwhile project.

Reference has been made to the tradition of some urban dwellers to keep horses. We have heard about how well they care for them. My simple view on it is that horses should not be kept in urban areas, but I do not know whether everyone would agree with this. If our starting point is trying to facilitate people in keeping horses in urban areas, we will always have a problem and will always be dealing with issues. I suggest a much better way to approach this matter would be to provide appropriate places to which people from urban areas could travel to visit their horses.

I concur with the point made by the representatives of the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals that traceability equals responsibility. Obviously, we can do more in terms of microchipping. Every horse is supposed to be microchipped, but many horses seized are not. Is it the case that not enough fines are being imposed when horses are not microchipped? Is there a problem in the execution of fines? How do we address this issue? If the system in place is not being used properly, surely we need to address the issue.

I thank everyone for the very informative presentations.

Chairman

I have to suspend the sitting as there is a vote in the Dáil. If it suits Deputy Denis Naughten and Senator Mary Ann O'Brien, I will call them to ask their questions after the suspension.

Sitting suspended at 5.15 p.m. and resumed at 5.35 p.m.

Senator Mary Ann O'Brien

I will be brief because these poor people have been here all day. I thank everybody for their educational, informative and up-to-date presentations. I have a few comments and questions. Some of the witnesses might concentrate on racehorses whereas the representatives of the Irish Horse Welfare Trust and the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals might know more about urban horses. Given that we are still in a huge crisis, it is hypocritical that we are sitting here relying on the horse to a significant extent culturally and economically. Ireland is the fourth largest breeder of thoroughbred racehorses in the world. We are up there with the top showjumping countries. Bertram Allen is fifth in the world. We are brilliant at eventing. We have many horse fairs. We are at risk of destroying our reputation because, as far as I can see, we still have a major crisis.

I would like to put to the witnesses a question we all have to ask ourselves. This House spent a great deal of time on the animal health and welfare legislation. Is our legislation sufficiently robust and detailed to deal with this crisis? Does the current legislation or the implementation of the law go far enough? Is it going anywhere at all? Are the fines or levels of penalties anywhere close to being acute enough? It seems to me that people are getting away with murder. Do we need to revisit that? Do we need to have a miscellaneous animal health and welfare Act that gets down to more detail? I heard the points that Deputy Penrose, who is very experienced in this area - I will not say weathered - put to Mr. McGrath and his colleagues. The Deputy said that while it is easy for the Department to make these wonderful laws and pass them on to the councils, if the councils do not have the money, they will not have the training, the resources or the people.

I do not always agree with Deputy Heydon, but I agree with him that horses do not belong in urban areas. Perhaps it is not popular to say this. I know there are people in urban areas who love horses. I am aware that it is part of their tradition. I am sorry to say that horses belong in rural areas. They are a bit like myself in that regard.

I thank Ms Power and Ms Myerscough for their presentations. The importance of education as one of the solutions came across hugely in what they had to say. I would like them to tell me more about their current funding position. What do they think they need to make a serious and meaningful impact nationally? We want to deal with the crisis. I know the Minister, Deputy Coveney, wants to do so.

I feel the Department's solution was to round up the horses and euthanise them - I hope painlessly - but that does not appear to have happened because that was talked about 18 months ago. The horsemeat crisis has not gone away and has affected hugely the market where people brought their horses to be slaughtered and got their couple of hundred euro. That continues to be a reason there are so many extremely distressed, starved, neglected, tortured and abandoned horses all over Ireland. I agree with Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív on the betting tax. I wish HRI was here today because it gets magnificent funding from the Government. I know it is never enough and I know how important the thoroughbred industry is but the horse as a whole is important to us as a nation. The horse industry, be it for small breeders, is a pillar.

I have a question for Mr. Derek Iceton. I note we have gone from quantity to much less quantity. Is he worried about quality? My husband kept telling me there were too many mares and foals in the country but now the numbers are down and, sadly, the number of breeders is down. Is there a problem with quality and what could be done to get some serious quality injected into the smaller breeders, in particular, to give them the ability to breed world class horse?

I ask Mr. Brendan McGrath if he has come across sulky racing and, if so, are there plans to control or ban it, particularly on the hard roads where there have been many deaths of horses? Has the Department provided council workers and the Garda with scanners so that if they come across a horse they can scan it to see whether it is registered? As many people have said today, registration is one of the names of the game. I could talk all day but as it is now 5.45 p.m. enough is enough.

Ms Barbara Bent and Dr. Andrew Kelly spoke about the donkeys. There are about two and a half donkeys who will be looking for homes soon. What are going to do about that?

Deputy Martin Heydon

Two thousand five hundred donkeys.

Senator Mary Ann O'Brien

Yes, 2,500 donkeys. I am trying to hurry. I know we are speaking about horses today but perhaps Ms Barbara Bent might say a few words.

The dairy industry is about to explode and I am aware that her organisation, the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, is worried about cows. I would like to hear from her as this is the right committee to speak about that issue.

Deputy Denis Naughten

I thank the various groups for their presentations. We all agree not only in regard to the equine sector but the beef sector and the food sector as a whole that health status is paramount and particularly as we are an exporting nation. The reality is that this is potentially a ticking time bomb and a reservoir for disease in terms of stray horses that have been abandoned. It is clear from the evidence we have heard today that the Department is paying about €3 million per annum to dispose of stray horses and local authorities pay about €2 million, a total of €5 million in that area. It is clear from the evidence provided by Mr. Brendan McGrath and Dr. Andrew Kelly that it is a growing problem and is not abating to any extent, based on the numbers coming through their organisations.

Dr. Kelly cautioned that changes to the disadvantaged areas payment could have an impact on donkey welfare if the rules were changed. As he is aware, the rules were changed regarding the disadvantaged areas scheme for horses. Did the changes to the disadvantaged areas scheme have an impact on the number of horses that seemed to have been abandoned? The other question is for the City and County Managers Association and the Irish Thoroughbred Breeders Association.

Based on ISPCA figures, 10% of equines were thoroughbreds or ex-racehorses. All those animals would have been chipped. I am sure a substantial number of the other animals identified were chipped, but all the thoroughbred horses were chipped. On the change in SI 189 of 2014 were either of the witnesses' organisations consulted in advance of the change introduced last December by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine? The ISPCA has said that while it was not consulted, the Department had consulted stakeholders. Both organisations are significant stakeholders. I come from a suckler farm and in the 1980s - the Chairman will relate to this - beef farming was very much about the ears on the cattle because that is how premia were paid. Once one had the head and the ears, that was the most important part of the animal. Thankfully, through decoupling, but also because of schemes introduced by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in regard to the suckler cow and promoting the beef industry, we now have one of the finest herds in the world. While there may be some debate about the new support scheme being proposed by the Department, the reality is that we have a premium beef product which we can export internationally. There is huge potential in regard to the equine sector. We could probably generate about €1.5 billion for the economy from this sector if it were properly developed. Should we be looking at developing something along the lines of the suckler cow welfare scheme for the horse industry to try to improve the quality of animals and selecting animals for their breeding qualities? The other side of it is that we need an outlet for those that do not reach the standard. In the beef industry that was easy because they were put into the processing industry. That is not possible for the equine sector for many of the animals that are not chipped. How does one deal with that aspect?

I have one final question to Ms Sharon Power based on her evidence. She spoke about the importance of education and training. We all agree on that. Reverting to the beef industry, education and training, particularly of older farmers, is important and an integral part of the suckler cow support schemes. Does Ms Power consider there is a need for something similar to what her organisation is doing but expanded to all horse owners throughout the country and to the industry as a whole and not just young people from disadvantaged backgrounds?

Chairman

We have questions directed to each of the groups. I propose to take the responses from the groups in the order in which they made their presentations. I will take Mr. Iceton and Mr. O'Dwyer first.

Mr. Derek Iceton

As there are a lot of questions, please remind me if I omit any. An overarching question has come through about the registration of horses and the Department's computer system with regard to cattle. I am a cattle farmer. The Department does not need to reinvent the wheel. Unfortunately, the movement registrations system it introduced was a paper-based system. The paper-based system broke down. I will give an example. At Goffs last year, if one was a vendor of a foal or a yearling, one had to sign one piece of paper. The sales companies, whether it was Goffs or Tattersalls Ireland refused to handle that piece of paper because it was not within their remit to do so and the purchaser was supposed to go to the vendor and get the piece of paper and then remit that piece of paper back to Weatherbys. I cannot understand this nonsense when it already has a tried and tested system with regard to cattle.

The same proviso in regard to Goffs and Fairyhouse applied. We recommend that it be put into force with due haste.

On Deputy Ó Cuív’s question, I hope we reach a stage at which we can get a proper percentage from the betting industry. What would we do with it? We were here last year and spoke about the alliance for racing. The most important thing we can have is good prize money for racing. From that, there is a trickle-down effect. If racing is profitable, people want to buy horses. Moreover, the general standard of horse in training also increases. As a breeding nation, we are breeding from the females in the racing industry here.

I spoke previously about a mare depreciation scheme. Deputy Penrose asked a question in this regard but I will wait until he returns before I answer it.

Chairman

He may not return so Mr. Iceton should just answer. The response will be on the record.

Mr. Derek Iceton

With regard to the mare depreciation scheme, breeding horses is unlike any other type of farming activity. There is a tendency to have great peaks and troughs in income. The problem is that when there is a peak, one cannot average one’s income. Therefore, I would like to see an arrangement similar to that for farmers under 35 years of age, whereby they can reinvest profits immediately without paying the tax. This is not an issue for the bigger breeder, obviously, because he will always have plenty of animals breeding. If a smaller breeder has a bonanza year, it should be worth his while to invest the money earned in a better mare.

With regard to the other money, we would like some other facilities, such as all-weather paddocks and lunge rings. If one is to produce horses, one needs the facilities to do so. In a wet climate like ours, we need proper facilities. It would be helpful if we could have a scheme whereby younger breeders, in particular, could invest in their farms and install proper all-weather facilities, including lunging facilities, to allow them to produce the horses they need to produce.

Marketing is incredibly important. I instanced previously that we have a business here that is worth approximately €1.25 billion, yet our marketing budget is €1.5 million. A number of years ago, Dairygold relaunched Dairygold on the Irish market, in which it was already a market leader. Its budget for the relaunch was €1.25 million, yet we are trying to sell horses to the whole world with the tiny marketing budget that we have.

As I said in my presentation, the real markets for us are in the Far East, Middle East and North America. It takes money to break into them.

Mr. Shane O'Dwyer

The thoroughbred industry has the capacity for growth of 12% to 15%. International bloodstock markets are in good health and we have an export nation that exports 80% of what is produced. If we had a correct funding mechanism in place and were looking for 2.5%, which could generate around €100 million, it would result in reinvestment in the industry. It would go to owners. We need owners to reinvest in the industry. Every €1 that is added to prize money is worth about €8 to the local economy. That is what one is doing with the money. We have to increase prize money.

Deputy Penrose mentioned the United Kingdom. Our most valuable race, based on international rankings, is the derby. It is ranked No. 52 internationally. Approximately 70% of the prize money on offer comes from the entry fees paid by owners. Generally speaking, owners contribute 30% through entry fees. Potential returns to owners are much worse in Ireland than in any of our competitor countries. Therefore, it is important that we bear this in mind.

It was mentioned that charges are too high for owners. To defend Horse Racing Ireland, it has appointed, through Irish Thoroughbred Marketing, a person with special responsibility for ownership. He is examining ownership costs and reducing them. Last year at this forum, this matter was raised and action has been taken in this area.

Deputy Ó Cuív mentioned stallions and the stallion tax. The most important lever in the development of the thoroughbred sector and industry was the stallion tax exemption. This incentive cost the State nothing and encouraged people to stand horses here. It gave broodmare owners the opportunity to gain access to high-quality bloodlines. Since its removal in 2008, the number of stallions fell, as predicted. It fell from 414 in 2006 to 216 in 2014. There have been no new entrants to the stallion business.

Equally important, there has been a shift of the highest quality stallions to the United Kingdom. In 2004, Ireland had seven of the top ten stallions in Europe based on nomination fees. Now we have four. Having stallions here attracts foreign direct investment and it brings in mares. As Mr. Iceton said, the benefits trickle back down to the small breeder.

On the subjects of prize money for smaller breeders, the national hunt and people with one or two mares, we in the ITBA introduced a scheme, a self-help scheme, a couple of years ago to improve the broodmare band in respect of national hunt fillies, encourage breeders to sell their fillies and to have a market for them, and encourage the owner-breeder to put mares in training. With these objectives in mind, we added €5,000 to the prize fund for the winning owners. It has made a little bit of a difference. We talk about increasing this by 10% to 12% by being able to sustain just in excess of 9,000 foals. We want to be able to make sure that we concentrate on quality. Particularly for the small breeder, the better the racing rating, the better the broodmare will be in the covering shed. That is what we are striving for. With initiatives such as those mentioned by Mr. Iceton, with the increase in the prize fund and with the encouragement of the smaller breeders, I hope we will not lose too many people who fall off.

Mr. Derek Iceton

The final thing I have on the shopping list for Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív is the maintenance of our health status. This ties into what Deputy Naughten said. I cannot state how important our disease-free status is. Our competitors are anxious for us to have even the smallest issue, which can arise in any sector of the business. A number of years ago, and only because the Irish Equine Centre was so on the ball, we managed to keep the yearling sales in Goffs open. Just two weeks before that, it looked very difficult. Goffs' yearling sale is the Rolls-Royce sale in Ireland. Luckily, on foot of a disease outbreak that started in Northern Ireland but which was basically regarded as an outbreak on the island of Ireland, the Irish Equine Centre managed to do what was required and we stayed open for business. That just goes to show how vulnerable our industry is. We need to keep our disease-free status.

Deputy Martin Ferris asked about prize money. Mr. O'Dwyer has covered this. Deputy Ferris also asked about harness racing. He was alluding in particular to harness racing in the stadium in Dundalk. I have no issue with harness racing taking place there but with one major proviso, namely, that the animals that take part in the sport be of the same health status as the other horses that perform, be they showjumping horses, ponies, or otherwise. The biggest issue we have in the racing industry is respiratory virus. It is a devil to get rid of. If the harness-racing horses are of the same calibre and health status as the others, I am more than happy. We do not want circumstances in which we bring in horses in respect of which we do not know what is going on.

Deputy Penrose asked about racing in the United Kingdom. Circumstances are dreadful there. I thank the Government and those responsible for the cross-party support we received last year in respect of the increased prize money for the racing industry. There was a very worthwhile venture between all the constituent groups and I am delighted to see it worked.

Deputy Penrose might agree with me in saying that if further money becomes available, perhaps not all of it should go into prize money. I would like to see some of it going towards a reduction in the cost of having a horse in training. In other words, I am referring to the cost of entering a horse in a race and other such factors. That hits everybody. Although winning a race is great because it allows everyone to pay his dues, it would be nice to reduce somewhat the expenses pertaining to the average horse that does not win a race.

The committee asked what percentage of horses are registered. For the non-thoroughbred industry, it is in the low thousands, and in the thoroughbred industry, it is about 7,000 horses. Every one of them is registered and micro-chipped. As a cattle farmer, I live in fear of losing a tag or the Department coming in and finding that my herd register is not as it should be. I would really encourage the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to get on top of that aspect.

Reference was made to issues with veterinary products. This is quite interesting because currently the most simple antibiotic of all, crystalline penicillin, is an illegal product to use on horses in Ireland. It is also the product that has the lowest threshold of issue in relation to human health, but because this product is not available, due to very simple administration, vets cannot use it. Two years ago we had a problem with an abortion vaccine which was available over the Border, but no vet could legally give it here. Last year, we had a problem with supplies of a reproductive hormone running out, yet it was available throughout the rest of Europe. Perhaps the Department would investigate putting the horse into a minor species status. I am not looking to use any product we should not use, or any product that is not safe to use, but if it is safe to use in Britain and Germany and France then it is a pity not to use it here.

The other problem is that the market for veterinary products has become so small that most of the pharmaceutical companies now do not want to research new products or vaccines for us. Deputy Heydon asked how we compare with the UK. Its national hunt industry now has less than 600 mares in England and it worries me to see our national hunt band also falling. At our premier national hunt sale, which is in the Derby sale, 15% of the horses are French bred. I would hate to get to the situation where horses are being bred in France for us to buy in order to sell them in our premier sale. It is something we need to keep an eye on but we are up against a breeding and racing industry that is heavily subsidised. I thought we were supposed to be in a Single Market but these are the people who strongly advocate against us and for racing and breeding in France. It is a real pain.

Deputy Heydon asked about the foal levy. There is a levy payable on every thoroughbred foal. Only the Thoroughbred Breeders' Association can attend to the international issues in relation to horses and the national issues, etc. We are the representative body. Irish thoroughbred marketing has to be co-funded by the breeders' association. We must do this by statute so we have to raise the money and a big chunk comes from fund-raising. The figure of €800,000, which is by far the biggest amount of money, comes from breeders and goes into the Irish Equine Centre. That is what the money is used for. It is also used for the alliances for racing and for veterinary procedures. I am pleased to say that our European lobbyist is here today in the Visitors Gallery. We are working on behalf of breeders everywhere.

The levy is based on the amount of fee and is more than progressive. For example, the most expensive foals - the top 11% - will pay 40% of the levy. An average levy of €65 will be paid for 53% of the foals. That is to pay the Irish Equine Centre, Irish Thoroughbred Marketing and all the myriad schemes that we have put in place. I suggest this is incredible value for breeders. When, in the cattle business, I look at my returns from the meat factories and I see the stoppages coming out, then the foal levy is small beer. The Irish Thoroughbred Breeders' Association does the best it can with that money and there is a 98.3% compliance rate with the levy. This House would be delighted if every tax had the same level of compliance.

It has been suggested that we might bring in a mandatory sales levy. A levy proposed by others was to be 1% and only apply to sales of horses in Ireland.

Unfortunately the only cohort that would get hit with that levy is the commercial Irish breeder who sells in Ireland. The breeders who sell in Britain would not be caught with it and neither would the big owner breeders and the bigger farms in the country, so I cannot see the merit in that. It is something towards which we are pretty reactive, to try to change. We are trying to make it fairer on everybody.

Senator Mary Ann O'Brien was concerned about quality, and it certainly is a concern. We have had too many mares and we have gone through a dreadful period of reorganisation in the business. Unlike any other form of animal, the supply does not just cut off. We have to keep running with it. Mr. O'Dwyer has suggested 9,000 as the figure we can probably produce, but it must be quality. The world market shouts quality. I am pleased to say that no matter where one looks at racing throughout the world, most of the top horses in Hong Kong, Singapore and Australia at the moment are Irish and Irish bred. That is where our future market is. The drive is for quality and for that market. I hope the British market improves but it needs to get a few quid off the bookmakers to improve it.

Mr. Shane O'Dwyer

In regard to whether the legislation is robust enough, we believe the end user has to be held responsible. There must be proper policing and local authorities need to be funded. I agree with the committee about the urban problem. I welcome Deputy Naughten's question on whether we knew or if we were informed about this issue. We had concerns and Mr. Iceton has referred to the fact there was a little confusion about the whole thing at last years' sales. The Irish Thoroughbred Breeders' Association has a close relationship with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and we highlighted the fact that it needed to be looked at. We did not know that the statutory instrument had been introduced. We and other witnesses present are members of the Farm Animals Welfare Advisory Council, FAWAC, and the equine liaison group within the Department. These are the issues that require consultation before anything is implemented. It is going in the right direction and I am hopeful that, given time and with computerisation, it will work.

Mr. Derek Iceton

We were not notified that there was a change in the statutory instrument. It was news to me today and I find this shocking. The committee asked about the breed improvement scheme. It is difficult because it is not like the cattle industry. One is not producing for a particular trade. We meet breeders throughout the country and try to show them how to produce a better horse in all shapes and forms. These meetings are usually well-attended. I do not wish to give a negative view of our industry. We are fortunate to have plenty of young and older successful breeders. The country is full of good breeders. My concern is for some of the smaller ones who are going through a tough time at the moment. I thank the committee for its attention and for the questions.

Mr. Brendan McGrath

I trust that the respiratory symptoms displayed by Senator Mary Ann O'Brien and me are not symptomatic of what my colleague discussed earlier. Deputy Ó Cuív, Deputy Heydon and Senator Mary Ann O'Brien all referred to the urban horse phenomenon. The question was asked whether horses in urban areas should be allowed. I concur that the short answer is "no". In an ideal world there should not be such horses, but it is a fact of life that there are. On my way here today I received a text with an image attached from a councillor who resides in a local authority estate. The photo showed three horses walking around his front lawn. That is neither acceptable nor desirable in a modern scenario and it causes untold problems for residents in such estates and adjoining areas. Deputy Ó Cuív asked if we know how many of the horses are Traveller horses. We do not know that figure but, anecdotally, in Galway city, a significant number of the urban horses are associated with the Traveller community.

As a consequence we have to deal with the underlying issues. There is a significant space to be occupied by urban horse and other horse projects generally throughout the country. The local government sector has collaborated on several initiatives, such as the Dunsink and Limerick Horse Project, which is a model of excellent practice. We have to take what we have learned from those projects, disseminate it and introduce it in some properly funded projects around the country. Those projects must be community-led and supported and have multi-sectoral involvement. Those are some facets of the learning that must be disseminated. They have to be bottom up. They will not succeed if they are top down. We advocate and support those projects and the sector as a whole has said it will willingly commit to, and get involved with, projects that are brought forward.

The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine announced a fund last year and invited applications and several local authorities expressed an interest in that, including Galway City Council. Local authorities have land banks. We have access to land that the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, and other agencies have. It is possible to bring forward planned, structured, multi-stakeholder plans, involving all the agencies, the Garda, education and training boards, Tús, the local government sector, the Traveller support agencies and so on. That enables us to deal with some of the issues Deputy Ó Cuív spoke about, in terms of having a controlled response and reducing the criminality, which enables us to go after the horses that are utterly illegal and outside the scheme. The sector would welcome a structured, funded approach and a stream of funding. That stream needs to continue because we will achieve nothing if we operate on an ad hoc or an non-integrated way. We need to break the cycle. In our submission we spoke about research. We understand many of the anecdotal reasons underlying the keeping of urban horses but we need to back those up with evidence. That does not need to be a very lengthy exercise. If the Department led out on it, the other partners in the sector could contribute to it. Let us for once and for all determine the best way to break that cycle.

Deputy Martin Ferris talked about harness racing and Senator Mary Ann O’Brien talked about sulky racing. I presume the reference to harness racing refers to organised, structured racing, like that in Dundalk. Sulky racing is often a problem on public roads. The local government sector regularly gets complaints from concerned motorists and landowners about sulky racing. Generally, it comes under road traffic legislation. It is problematic and difficult to deal with. One local authority has specifically adopted by-laws but to date the response has been under road traffic legislation. We certainly concur with Deputy Martin Ferris and others who spoke today that traceability and responsibility are key to this.

Deputy Penrose spoke about the transfer of resources. We have made the case that what we recoup from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is not sufficient to refund the local government sector. It is costing the sector a significant sum of money. We have told our colleagues in the Department that the current approach needs to be more structured and formalised. There is no service level agreement, SLA, with the Department but there should be one between the local government sector and the Department. That would enable a more structured approach. Scanners are a routine piece of equipment and our veterinary officers have them.

Part of the reason that seizures cost between €800 and €1,100 per horse is that there are significant problems. It is no exception that in many cases we must engage other stakeholders, particularly the gardaí, to help us in round-up and collection of horses. That tells a story in its own right. Seizing horses often has to be planned for out of hours, early in the day, and cannot be publicised. One of the speakers told of how difficult it is to retrieve a single injured horse and the amount of resources that took. It is difficult to try to go into certain environments to collect horses where we are not welcome and where there are significant health and safety concerns. As employers we have other legal obligations in respect of the safety, health and welfare at work legislation. That is why it is so costly.

We generally have to engage contractors to assist us in the work. We are tendering for that. There are a very limited number of contractors in the business. That is a significant problem, which reflects the cost to us. Speaking anecdotally, in Galway City Council 84% of the money that I, as chief executive, will spend this year is collected locally. It comes largely now out of property tax or rates. I am accountable to the councillors for the money I spend. Over the past three and a half years Galway City Council has spent a net €260,000 collecting urban horses which could be better spent elsewhere if we had a fundamentally different approach.

Deputy Penrose asked another question, which is not, I understand, specifically related to the work the committee is doing, about the proposed veterinary shared service. At its simplest, it is not proposed as part of that to remove from any county or city the existing veterinary officer. It refers to putting in place a regional chief veterinary officer to facilitate a coordinated approach and involves enabling vets at the extremities of counties to go over the boundary if a premises requires a food safety inspection. Instead of a vet having to travel the entire length or width of a county, a vet from a neighbouring county can cross over. That is the kind of practical arrangement being discussed. There is no proposal whatsoever to remove a vet from any county; it is quite the opposite. Part and parcel of the change is to strengthen the veterinary service at local government level. That is the response for Deputy Penrose in his absence.

I concur with Deputy Heydon’s comment that prevention is better than the cure, which goes back to research and the urban and rural horse projects.

The resource issue does not determine spot checks. Our response at local government level has tended to be largely reactive. The local authority sector has lost more than 30% of staffing resources across the organisations, down from a high of 37,000 to 26,750. That varies between 20% and 30% across every authority. Our responses are sometimes reactive rather than proactive when resources are squeezed and we are under pressure on the housing or transport front, or whatever. Squeezed resources mean we have to tailor our action accordingly. That is a practical problem that we try to deal with daily.

We were asked about the level of legislative intervention. It is the view of the local authority sector that generally the suite of legislation is adequate and robust. I refer the committee to our submission of February of this year, where as an appendix we highlighted several technical and procedural changes that we would recommend for the legislation. If they were corrected, with the suite of legislation that exists, they would go a long way to dealing with some of the lacunae or vacuums we encounter. We also stress that we require multi-stakeholder involvement, and there must be a more structured approach. It is very important for us that we have a service level agreement with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. We heard the point about the appointment of authorised officers. We hope the current arrangement that the Department has with the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, ISPCA, and the Dublin Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, DSPCA, could be more structured with the local government sector, which would go some way towards addressing some of the lacunae. I think that answers Deputy Heydon’s questions.

I hope I have answered Senator Mary Ann O’Brien’s questions about the legislation, sulky racing and the scanners. That brings me to Deputy Naughten’s questions. Typically, between 10% and 12% of the horses we seize are microchipped - or, to put it another way, close to 90% are not. Based on the figures we produced, we seized close to 5,000 animals in 2014. The numbers so far in 2015 suggest the total will be in or around the same level. We were not consulted about the change to the statutory instrument. The changes emerged as news to many of my veterinary colleagues within the local government sector.

I hope that answers the questions.

Ms Sharon Power

In response to Deputy Ó Cuív first, in our experience urban horse communities are not just Travellers; it very much depends on the area. For example, in most areas of Dublin, the horse-owning community is a settled community, and the same is true of parts of Limerick. Other parts of Limerick have second-generation Travellers. In some of the bigger towns around the country and outside of towns, there are Traveller communities.

The way forward is for structured horse projects working in conjunction with the local authorities and providing education. That is the key to solving the problems in the long term. However, in our experience there is a need for ongoing management by a committee of the stakeholders or other groups. The Deputy also asked if most of the horses were abandoned, neglected or abused. Most horses that are abandoned are simply abandoned. They are seldom well cared for and the more cruel actions take place in urban areas, which relate to over-use, misuse and cruelty.

Senator Mary Ann O'Brien asked about funding and the funding models for running courses and providing education. I probably should have pointed out earlier that we do get some funding from the horse industries and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine but almost three quarters of our funding comes from fund-raising and donations. In terms of running courses, we have funding this year, for example, from the Department to run two courses which cost approximately €5,000 each. I will hand over to my colleague, Ms Owens, to speak about the costs involved in our most recent horse projects and that will give the Senator an idea of costs. In general, once there is land available from a local authority, the costs of running a horse project are not significant.

Dr. Andrew Kelly

Deputy Ó Cuív asked about funding streams. It has been mentioned that the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine made €1 million available for projects to deal with some of these issues. The ISPCA has joined with Cork City Council to put in a proposal for a mobile education unit that would reach out to all communities with equines in the Cork area and possibly reaching up into other parts of Munster as well. That would be funded for two years, with the aim of the ISPCA taking on the baton after the two years. The full cost of the proposal for that two years would be around €140,000. The funding is an issue. We would also like to recruit a dedicated full-time education officer who would recruit a team of volunteer education officers around the country to deliver those kinds of educational programmes. We are also looking at developing our site in Mallow to have a permanent education centre there where we could bring in people for education purposes and where they could have hands-on work with the horses and learn how to care for them appropriately.

We recognise the affinity that some members of the Traveller community, for example, have with their horses and we want to work with the community to provide them with the resources they need. Some of the cruelty we see is through a lack of understanding, lack of availability of resources and lack of access to veterinary care. If we can provide those things, the horses and dogs that we work with become more valuable to them. That is what we would like to do in the future.

Deputy Martin Ferris asked whether the cruelty we see is more related to the horses that have been abandoned. Certainly, those that have been abandoned will suffer and they will starve to death if there is no food available. They may injure themselves if they are in a poor environment, but we also see cruelty in cases of horses that are, at least on paper, being cared for. It is not confined to members of the Traveller community but rather it occurs across all sectors of the equine community. In particular, we see problems in some halting sites, but by no means in all sites. However, we need to work with those communities in order to change that situation.

Deputy Martin Ferris also asked about our views on penalties for animal welfare offences. I mentioned in my presentation that the ISPCA has initiated 45 prosecutions since the Animal Health and Welfare Act came into force. I will provide details on three of those cases which have been finalised in court. The first case was for tail docking of puppies which is now illegal under the Act. A father and son pleaded guilty. The son pleaded guilty to allowing his father to do the docking and the father pleaded guilty to doing the docking. They appeared in court and they were not convicted, despite the facts not being disputed and despite the fact that they pleaded guilty. The judge elected to invoke the Probation of Offenders Act and that is a matter for the court. They were invited to make a donation to the ISPCA.

We might like to see higher penalties in those circumstances. The second case involved a dog that had been abandoned when a person moved out of the house and left the dog with a bucket of water that it could not reach. That individual was ordered to pay costs of €400 to the ISPCA. The third case was a one of causing unnecessary suffering to a dog that died of parvovirus and a fine of €100 was imposed in that case. Important in that case, the judge also issued an order limiting the number of dogs that could be kept on that halting site to one per adult. This allows us to deal with that particular issue in a different way in the future.

Under the Protection of Animals Act, one of the cases that came to court last year was a case where we found several dead horses and several suffering horses in very poor condition. Despite not disputing the facts of the case, the judge elected not to convict and, in fact, actually said that if the ISPCA inspected the property in six months and everything was up to scratch, he would not convict. However, in that six-month period, the chap involved sourced another 40 horses and the situation is essentially a ticking time bomb.

The Animal Health and Welfare Act is a very good piece of legislation. It provides for penalties and fines of up to €5,000 and-or up to six months' imprisonment for cases in summary and on indictment, up to €250,000 and up to five years' imprisonment. The penalties are there but it is a matter for the courts. Our job is to bring the cases to court. Sadly, it is a damning indictment of other agencies that it is a charity that has brought these cases to court. In so far as I am aware, no other agency has yet brought a prosecution under the Animal Health and Welfare Act. We are working with the Garda Síochána and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in this regard.

Deputy Martin Ferris also asked about harness racing. As Mr. McGrath said, if the health and welfare of the horses is protected and the harness racing is regulated, then it is good because it takes it off the roads. In the case of sulky racing, we see some horrendous injuries to horses on a regular basis around the country. They have collided with cars and been dumped at the side of the road. We would like to see sulky racing taken off the road but the local authorities and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine then have a responsibility to provide off-road facilities where it can be regulated and the health and welfare of the animals can be protected. We have called for this in the past.

Deputy Penrose asked the percentage of horses we come across that are not micro-chipped. Similar to Mr. McGrath, 85% to 90% of the horses we deal with are not micro-chipped. In the case of the small proportion that are micro-chipped, we find that the owner denies all knowledge and says the animal has been sold on. Deputy Penrose asked about ex gratia payments. Last year the ISPCA received €210,000 from the Department for which we are very grateful. This amounts to approximately 7% of our annual expenditure.

Deputy Heydon asked about penalties for failure to micro-chip animals. If an animal is not micro-chipped, it is very difficult to impose a penalty because the owner is not known. On a small number of occasions, we may come across a horse that has been micro-chipped and may be able to trace the owner. However, as I indicated, there are significant penalties to be imposed but the courts seem not to impose high penalties for these kinds of offences.

Senator Mary Ann O'Brien asked if the legislation is sufficiently robust to deal with these issues. I have cited the penalties imposed in a number of cases. The legislation is in place and it is good but perhaps guidelines for the judges might be useful. We would like to see higher penalties in some of these cases.

Deputy Naughten asked about the disadvantaged area scheme. I am not aware that there was a marked change in the number of horses being abandoned at that point in time but that might have been masked by other things. The donkeys may be more noticeable if they are dumped when the disadvantaged area scheme is scrapped if this happens in the future.

I am very pleased that committee members have all made positive comments on the need for traceability. I hope we will see a review of the statutory instrument to make sure there is full traceability for horses.

Ms Barbara Bent

I have grave concerns about the number of donkeys involved in the disadvantaged areas scheme. I think the last figure was 2,280. If the scheme is scrapped - we believe it may be - we will have to deal with a huge number of donkeys. We, therefore, need a proactive approach before the scheme is scrapped to decide what is to happen to them.

Sulky road racing is one of my pet problems. If we are reviewing the control of horses, it is not the actual racing that is the problem but the training. We are sitting on another time bomb in about five counties. One of these days one of the ponies will run away on a main road and there will be a major incident in which people might be killed. From an animal welfare perspective, the number of horses injured sends a very bad message to tourists. People travelling in double-decker buses rang our helpline and centre in Mallow to complain when they saw six-month old foals trotting up and down side roads and byroads with two or three kids on them. People abroad think we are absolutely crazy in Ireland to allow such a carry-on on main and side roads. It sends a very bad message to visitors from an animal welfare perspective.

Mr. John McCarthy

To help the committee with numbers, I refer to the submission we made to the Department on 27 April 2014. In the appendix on pages 6 and 7 members will see two tables. One provides an analysis of horse seizures and disposals, while the second indicates the numbers of horses slaughtered at approved Department and local authority plants in 2010, 2011 and 2012. The committee might find this information helpful.

Chairman

That is great. I thank Mr. McCarthy.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

One thing that comes across as extraordinary is that we cannot seem to get to grips with the problem of ensuring all horses are microchipped. As they are not small animals, it is not like dealing with cats where one could breed 100 very quickly. Horses have a longer gestation period. As they are big animals, it is amazing that we cannot settle this issue once and for all.

Not under the current arrangement between us and the Department.

Chairman

We have a lot of food for thought here. I thank all the witnesses. As Mr. Iceton said, Ireland is the home of the horse and yet we see an attitude and behaviour towards horses that could undermine it. None of us could accept that. It is not all about funding but funding is a very important component of it because nothing can be done without money and resources. As with any implementation plan, we need targets and goals and the money to be used in the best possible way to achieve that. We received a couple of shockers today, particularly in regard to what Ms Owen said about the movement of horses on to the island without any control. It seems unbelievable that this could happen with such a large animal. It is not like moving mice. We have a bit of work to do. We must finish this series of hearings in the autumn and make a recommendation to the Minister, the Department and other Ministers regarding how best to address the issue so that the reputation of the sport horse and the thoroughbred industry is protected.

We were shown pictures today of poorly and emaciated former racehorses. When a horse is in good form, be it at the RDS, the Curragh or Leopardstown, one can tell if it is a good racehorse, showjumper or eventer, but when it is emaciated one cannot distinguish what it was, regardless of whether it was a top class breed or could hardly perform. Once it is cruelly treated, that is the end of it. It is an animal that has been mistreated and we cannot tolerate that. Many of the committee members are farmers, so we understand what it is. Our viability depends on minding animals, apart from the fact that it is bred into us, if I can use that phrase, to do so. There is a keen interest among the members and the witnesses will have gathered that from the questions that were asked.

Again, I thank everybody. This is probably the last meeting before the Dáil rises for the summer recess. I thank the committee secretariat, the members of the committee and the broadcasting personnel for their assistance during this term. I hope to see everybody back next September. I will adjourn the meeting sine die because I am not sure of the date of the next meeting and one does not know what emergency might arise that we will have to deal with.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.52 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 21 July 2015.

Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine debate - Tuesday, 14 Jul 2015

Horse Industry in Ireland: Discussion (Resumed)

Mr. Derek Iceton

Mr. Brendan McGrath

Mr. Brendan McGrath

Ms Jane Myerscough

Ms Sharon Power

Dr. Andrew Kelly

Mr. Derek Iceton

Mr. Derek Iceton

Mr. Shane O'Dwyer

Mr. Derek Iceton

Mr. Shane O'Dwyer

Mr. Derek Iceton

Mr. Brendan McGrath

Ms Sharon Power

Ms Sharon Power

Ms Claire Owens

Ms Sharon Power

Ms Sharon Power

Dr. Andrew Kelly

Dr. Andrew Kelly

Ms Sharon Power

Ms Claire Owens

Ms Claire Owens

Ms Claire Owens

Ms Claire Owens

Ms Claire Owens

Ms Claire Owens

Ms Claire Owens

Ms Claire Owens

Dr. Andrew Kelly

Ms Barbara Bent

Mr. John McCarthy

Ms Claire Owens

Ms Sharon Power

Ms Sharon Power

Dr. Andrew Kelly

Ms Barbara Bent

Mr. Garrett Shine

Mr. Garrett Shine

Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine debate -
Tuesday, 14 Jul 2015