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Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine debate -
Wednesday, 10 Nov 2021

Post-Enactment Scrutiny of the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013.

Apologies have been received from Senator Boyhan. Before we begin, Members now have the option to be physically present in the committee room or they may join by Microsoft Teams, with the proviso that for meetings in public session, they must be in the Leinster House complex. Members may not participate in the meeting from outside of the parliamentary precincts. If joining via Microsoft Teams, please mute microphones when not making a contribution and please use the raise hand function to indicate. Please note that messages sent to the chat are visible to all. Speaking slots will be prioritised for members of the committee.

Members and all attendees are asked to exercise personal responsibility in protecting themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19. They are strongly advised to participate in good hand hygiene. I urge them not to move any chair from its current position and to maintain appropriate levels of social distancing during and after the meeting. Masks, preferably of a medical grade, should be worn at all times during the meeting, except when speaking. I ask for full co-operation on these issues.

In the first session, we will hear from representatives of the Dublin Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, DSPCA, as part of the committee's post-enactment scrutiny of the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013. In the second session, will hear an update on the CAP strategic plan from officials from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. With regard to the post-enactment scrutiny of the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013, this Act revised the law relating to the health and welfare of animals and their protection and identification and strengthened measures to prevent and deal with cruelty to animals. As part of the committee's work programme, members have agreed to hold a meeting to carry out post-enactment scrutiny of the legislation. In particular, we wish to examine the effectiveness of the legislation in regard to the issue of puppy smuggling. I welcome Mr. Brian Gillen, chief executive officer, and Mr. Liam Kinsella, chief inspector, from the Dublin Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. The witnesses have ten minutes to make an opening statement, following which there will be a questions and answers session.

Before we begin, I have an important notice on parliamentary privilege. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected to the subject matter in these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I now invite Mr. Gillen to make his opening statement.

Mr. Brian Gillen

I thank the committee for inviting us to meet with it. There are positives and negatives with regard to the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013. It is far-reaching, excellent legislation that was introduced by the then Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney, but it has some shortcomings, which I will address later. I will first dwell on the positives because we should not lose sight of them.

This legislation introduces the idea of welfare versus cruelty, whereas the previous legislation was focused on cruelty. The importance of that distinction is such that the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2014 is animal centred. It sees animals as sentient beings with rights in their own right as opposed to being possessions. It also incorporates the five freedoms. The welfare versus cruelty idea is the first positive and a big uplift in terms of where we were previously. The improvement notice has worked extremely well in our case. The numbers of animals coming through the pound system across Ireland, be they dogs or horses, have dropped dramatically since the commencement of this legislation in 2013. The improvement notice is a strong mechanism in terms of making sure that animal welfare issues are addressed, as opposed to having to take people to court. On an annual basis, our authorised officers would serve approximately 1,000 improvement notices, with 25 to 30 cases per annum being taken through the courts. It is an efficient and effective way of bringing about change in the welfare of animals that was not available previously.

The provision with regard to the authorised officers is very far-reaching. There was a lot of trust within government in terms of the powers that have been given to the NGOs such as the DSPCA and the ISPCA. That foresight has borne fruit.

It has resulted in experienced and local authorised officers who are well capable of handling the welfare issues on the ground as opposed to officers caught up in the rest of the system, such as gardaí and customs officers.

The DSPCA focuses on horses, wildlife and pets. We are not involved with farm animals in any shape or form unless we happen to come across something. Our main focus is on horses, wildlife and pets.

We were established in 1840, so we have been in the welfare business for a long time. We have been going for 181 years. I would like to think that, in that time, we have built up a lot of experience. The Animal Health and Welfare Act sits in with and maximises the benefit of that experience. There are many positives.

With regard to negatives and what we would like to see changed, the first area we should consider is animal mutilation, particularly the cropping of ears. There is a statutory instrument attached to the Animal Health and Welfare Act that deals with this issue, but, unfortunately, in the real world, in a practical sense, one almost has to be standing over somebody when he or she is mutilating an animal’s ears to bring forward a charge. We would like to see that changed. It is very difficult for us to bring forward prosecutions under the existing arrangements. We would like to see a ban on the ownership of animals with cropped ears. This could be staged over time. We would like to see the importation and showing of dogs with cropped ears addressed as a way of tackling this issue. Nothing has changed in respect of animal mutilation under the existing legislation.

The second area of deficiency is that of microchips. Taking dogs as an example, there are between 700,000 and 750,000 dogs alive in the State. The figure varies depending on whom you speak to; there is no census. The dogs are registered across four databases. Of the total number of animals, approximately 60% are registered. Again, depending on whom you speak to, 40% to 50% of the registration information in the databases is inaccurate. We would like to see that addressed. It is linked to my next comment, which concerns seized animals.

A situation arises when gardaí seize animals as evidence or seize aggressive dogs, primarily when operating under search warrants, particularly when combatting drug crime. There is really no accommodation anymore to deal with such animals. It was the role of the local authority pound in Dublin but the circumstances have changed. Therefore, there is a gap in that the Garda, when it seizes animals, is now calling on the likes of us, as charities, to take them in. It can sometimes take a year or two for the cases concerning the animals to come to court. We would like to see a change whereby the microchip in an animal would become definitive proof of ownership and whereby, if such proof is not available, the animal would, after five days, be available for rehoming and could be rehomed. After all, the legislation is entitled the Animal Health and Welfare Act. It is not in an animal’s best interest to be sitting for two or three years in the DSPCA. Disregarding the cost for a minute, it is not good for an animal’s welfare to have it waiting in premises such as ours while a court case is pending. We would like to see some system for handling dogs that are seized by gardaí and for the disposal of those animals, by which I mean rehoming as opposed to anything else.

The fourth area in which we would like to see change is that of puppy farming. Puppy farming is our biggest animal welfare problem that has not been addressed properly. The dog-breeding establishment, DBE, legislation is not administered by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. It looks after everything else pertaining to animals. It would make more sense to put everything under the one roof and to have the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine take on responsibility for the DBEs.

Some members will have seen the recent “Spotlight” programme on illegal exports to the UK. It is a bit of a misnomer because many of the DBEs registered in Ireland are involved in that trade. We have evidence to support that. The trading and transporting of very young puppies between six and eight weeks of age across borders is abhorrent and pure cruelty as far as we are concerned. The whole industry is based on the concept of cruelty to animals and the deception of the consumer. Therefore, we feel puppy farming is not properly addressed. It should be included under the Animal Health and Welfare Act. Animal health and welfare refers to everything except the DBEs, the puppy farms.

There is also the issue of the online selling of animals. The EU is introducing the European Digital Services Act. It is a step in the right direction in making sure that there is legislation governing what is happening online, that buyers are aware of what they are getting into and that there is full traceability. Laws are being introduced in the UK, one being Lucy's law, which dictates that a puppy cannot be sold without its mother being present. There are precedents in other countries in respect of addressing the puppy-farming issue. They should be considered as a means of improving our approach.

To sum up, we have a very positive approach. There are four areas of concern: cropped ears and mutilation; microchips; seized animals; and puppy farming.

I thank Mr. Gillen for his comprehensive opening statement. He said puppy farming does not come under the remit the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

Mr. Brian Gillen

It comes under the Department of Rural and Community Development. It was under the Department of the Environment, Local Government and Heritage for a while, but responsibility was transferred in recent years.

There seems to be no logic to that.

Mr. Brian Gillen

No, there is not. It is very much in the gambit of the local authorities. It very much sits in with the control of dogs, which I understand is still under the Department of the Environment, Local Government and Heritage, although I am not quite sure about that. DBE responsibility sits very much with the local authorities. We believe responsibility should be centralised and that there should be standards across the country.

We made a submission on DBE legislative change four or five years ago. Our main point was that we have yet to see a good dog coming out of a puppy farm that has 500 or 600 breeding bitches in it. We worked with the Irish Kennel Club on this. Ideally, we would like to see a cap on the maximum number of breeding bitches that can be in any one establishment. This would result in a better environment for the animals.

How many could be on a breeding farm?

Mr. Brian Gillen

Six hundred or 700 breeding bitches. The farms are licensed for that.

I thank Mr. Gillen. It was Senator Boylan who asked us to bring this subject before the committee, so I will let her contribute first.

I thank the witnesses. They have touched on some of the issues I was going to raise concerning the DBEs. That they are not under the remit of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is part of the problem because it means they are not being monitored in the same way as monitoring occurs under the animal health and welfare legislation.

Do the witnesses believe it would be useful for the Minister to issue a circular to all local authorities stating they must have a standardised process concerning the information available to the public? When I sought information on the DBEs licensed by the various local authorities, some local authorities provided all the information, some had no information on their websites and some said that, for GDPR reasons, they could not give a list.

If one local authority can tell us the name of the breeding establishment, the name of the owner, how many breeding bitches are there, the location of the establishment and when it was last inspected, and that information is on its website, should that not be the case for all DBEs?

Another point touched on was a cap on the breeding bitches. I would also like to hear about the difference in the ratio of staff to dogs in these establishments compared with organisations such as the DSPCA, for example.

My other query concerned the microchip and proof of ownership. Our dog licensing system makes it possible to get a licence and print it off on the same day. The microchip element is voluntary, and dog owners can have it implanted or not. Why is it important to have the microchip in as proof of ownership when applying for a dog licence? If possible, I would also like to know a little more about the information the microchip currently provides and also what we could have in that regard. I think the microchips only tell us that it is a dog now, whereas we have a system for cars where the licence provides us much more information. I will start with those questions.

Mr. Liam Kinsella

On what the Senator said about the dog licence, someone can walk in at 12 o'clock in the day, ask for a licence for a female black and white collie and he or she will get the dog licence. That is it. The problem we see with that is that the licence is not attached to any particular dog because it is for just a dog. Therefore, it is acceptable for a dog of a similar breed and colour.

When we started seizing dogs with the Garda we found in the case of some of the prize dogs that are worth a lot of money, people were purchasing licences after the dogs had been seized and producing these as proof of ownership. In one case, we took a lot of dogs out of a situation, with the assistance of the Garda. Licences were then produced, and a garda rang me to ask if they were valid. I asked him to read out the details of the licences. Those licences were purchased four hours after the animals were seized, and they were being used to try to prove ownership. The licences were also made to look older by crumpling them up. For this reason, the current licences are of no value whatsoever. They are just a piece of paper with a description of the dog.

On microchips, it is necessary to have proof of identity and address to register the microchip in a person’s name. That gives us a reasonable system to allow us to track owners, albeit that people can sell a dog or give it away to somebody else. In that case, however, we can still ask the registered owner who the dog has been given to. We get cases where such owners do not know because they sold the dog on donedeal.ie or whatever the case may be. Microchipping gives us a starting point when it is done properly.

Mr. Brian Gillen

Since we are on microchipping, I am aware of other instances, particularly in eastern Europe, where the microchip is used and veterinary records are attached to it. Used properly, microchipping is a tight system. Unfortunately, there are a number of gaps in what we have here. I refer to the idea that the breeder will chip the dog and then not transfer ownership. What happens then in the field is that we pick up an animal and it is still registered to the breeder. To return the animal, we contact the breeder to try to get the dog home. If it is a prosecution situation, however, we have nobody to go after. Therefore, we strongly feel that we must improve the entire microchipping process. In other countries that use microchipping, the idea of the veterinary record being attached is an important change. If a dog does turn up and needs treatment, that information on the microchip then allows it to be treated. Everything starts with the idea that whatever the population of dogs, they need to be microchipped and registered to their owners. Unfortunately, that is just not the case in Ireland now.

The Senator also asked about the numbers on puppy farms in respect of breeding bitches and our standards concerning the staff to animal ratio. We operate with approximately one staff member to between five and ten dogs. That is the standard to which we operate in the shelter. On the idea that there might be 600 breeding bitches in an establishment, there are two aspects to his. The first is on the animals themselves, the bitches, that are being kept in such an environment. That is just not a life for a dog. It is not what they are supposed to be doing; they are supposed to be living with humans as pets. The second is that when an animal comes out of one of those places, we can see that it is nervous and has many behavioural issues. I do not buy the idea of the 1:30 ratio because it is terribly hard to administer. Family members who might be studying in university up in Belfield, for example, can be recorded on the books of these dog breeding establishments as a staff member, whereas, in reality, they are not present there.

We are also aware of the use of mechanical feeding and those kinds of approaches. What is important is the interaction between humans and animals, and we simply cannot achieve that when there are such large numbers of animals, no matter what is done, because the ratios will just not do what is needed. It is hard to police. We went through this issue with the IKC at the time.

What is the IKC?

Mr. Brian Gillen

It is the Irish Kennel Club. The feeling was that having 30 dogs to one staff member is a good ratio, in cases where people wish to make a living out of breeding dogs. Many other obstacles in this regard, and recommendations in that respect, are detailed in our submission, but 30 dogs is a good number. It is possible to have that number of dogs, breed them, make a living at it, interact with the dogs in a proper way and produce a good animal at the end of the process. That can only happen in a good environment and that is what this is all about. Aspects such as breeding intervals, Caesarian sections and when the breeding bitches are retired are of interest to us as well. Unfortunately, the situation in Ireland now is that many of the rules for puppy farms are also guidelines. As such, they are not legally enforceable. In the context of the local authorities, then, what we have, at best, is a set of guidelines.

Is there a limitation on the number of litters a bitch can breed?

Mr. Brian Gillen

No.

There is in a greyhound kennel.

Mr. Brian Gillen

I do not know about the greyhound side of things.

A greyhound bitch can breed six litters and owners have to get permission to breed two more. The maximum is eight litters. Where a bitch is coming into season twice a year, this arrangement looks after the welfare side of things.

Mr. Brian Gillen

We had gone into that aspect and, from memory, I think five was the number of litters. If the dog had a Caesarian section, I think it was a maximum of three litters.

It is not being enforced.

Mr. Brian Gillen

It is difficult to enforce with the rules the local authorities have in place. I take the point about the publication of the names of these licensed DBEs. The Senator is absolutely right. We have done the same exercise in trying to go through the local authority websites. In many cases, the information is not there, while in other cases, the people involved are named and the licence references are provided, etc. In other cases, again, a pseudonym is used for identification.

As part of our submission on the dog breeding establishments, and in conjunction with Ipsos MRBI, we had a survey done that asked people if they would knowingly buy a puppy from a puppy farm. This brings me back to my point regarding cruelty and deception. Of the respondents to that survey, 95% said they would not knowingly buy a puppy from a puppy farm. The law as it stands is facilitating that deception, which the consumer is not interested in having. It is really for the benefit of those who wish to make money from this. Will the Senator remind me of the other point she raised?

It was that we recently requested Limerick County Council to publish its DBE list, which it did eventually. The requirement in law states is that the information is made publicly available. It does not even have to be online. It must just be in a place where the public can give notice to go and access it. The GDPR comparison is that if people want, for example, to hire a gas fitter to work in their house, it is possible to go online to get all the desired information, while the local authorities are telling us that it is not possible to give us the same amount of information about someone breeding dogs

Mr. Brian Gillen

Correct.

Representatives from Dogs Trust Ireland were in with us to discuss online sales. Government advice is that people who want a dog but do not want to adopt one should do their homework by checking that the advertisement features a microchip number and licence number. However, if they cannot get access to the DBE information, they cannot make a decision on whether they want to purchase a dog from a puppy farm.

Mr. Brian Gillen

That is 100% right.

This goes back to the idea that a national database would make more sense.

Mr. Brian Gillen

I am not so sure about a national database. I think that is a little bit of a distraction. It is about getting all the animals registered properly. It does not matter whether there are three databases or one; it is just that everything be properly registered.

But it would be in one location. Someone could go online and look for the information.

Mr. Brian Gillen

There is Europetnet, which we were members of. Europetnet is a register of all the databases across Europe. You can find what database a pet is registered on very quickly. You just key in the number and it will tell you what register it is on, so there is a method.

But that is the microchip.

Mr. Brian Gillen

There is a method across Europe for the microchip.

Yes, but in terms of the DBEs, would it not be better for that to be centralised?

Mr. Brian Gillen

Sorry, I misunderstood. Yes. That would be absolutely better for the DBEs to be centralised. That is where it comes back to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine idea. That Department is well versed in and capable of dealing with animals. It makes more sense and there is more control across the country, and it is easier to put standards in place. You can send out circulars to local authorities but I am not so sure how you police the actioning of that. You would spend more time chasing after it and policing it than doing it. We do not have answers on this. We are just putting out the problem and kicking it around to see how we can get there.

We also thought of another thing. Under the Animal Health and Welfare Act the authorised officers are specifically excluded. We cannot go in and inspect. It is under the Control of Dogs Act that those officers go in. That could be a useful change if animal health and welfare officers could have access on the grounds that we sort out the other things, namely, microchipping and the cap on the numbers.

I thank the witnesses for being here today and for their comprehensive submission. Without being negative, we will, if they are satisfied with other matters, concentrate on what they identified as the negatives, that is, cropped ears, microchipping, seized animals and puppy farms. The bombshell that Mr. Gillen dropped, which I certainly was not aware of and by the reaction here, I do not think others were either, is that puppy farming does not come under the remit of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Marine. That is something we should pursue.

Microchipping is an age-old issue. There are 700,000 to 750,000 dogs, depending on whose figures you go on. Mr Gillen said that 60% are registered.

Mr. Brian Gillen

It is 60% to 65%.

I heard what I thought was a great suggestion from someone when we were talking about dog fouling. They suggested that when you go to get your microchip or licence , there should be something similar to the theory test for a driving licence, or at least have for people a "dos and don'ts" of being a responsible dog owner. Based on those figures, that would only be preaching to the converted. How do we get the other 40% registered?

Mr. Brian Gillen

There is something in the idea that it is the definitive proof of ownership. If a sensible person realises that he or she could lose his or her dog if he or she does not have the registration up to date, that will inspire him or her to get the pet registered. There is work to be done on education and people really understanding. I have people ask me things like "My dog is lost. Can you go into your iPhone and see where it is?" There is a huge dearth of understanding about how the whole microchip system works. There is a big education job to do, but I think the stick can go in there to - by making it definitive proof of ownership. As Senator Boylan said, it is the same as a car. You would not buy a car unless you had definitive proof of ownership in your log book. Why is a dog any different?

In countries such as Switzerland, you cannot get a dog unless you go to college. You have to do a five- or six-week course and you get a certificate at the end of it to show that you are an upstanding individual who can now own a dog. I am not sure how that would fit with the Irish psyche. That is a bit down the line. I would just like to see all dogs on databases and all dogs traceable. I think we should focus on how we get to that.

In the DSPCA's day-to-day activities, would much change have been identified during Covid?

Mr. Brian Gillen

We have noticed quite a bit of change. First and foremost, the numbers coming through the pound system are on the floor. There are very few stray or unwanted dogs. Second, we think the numbers of dogs in Ireland could be up by 30,000 or 40,000 over the past couple of years. We think that is the increase on the start of the pandemic.

Yet there has been no spike in chipping.

Mr. Brian Gillen

Chipping has been running. We have a relationship with one of the chipping data bases in particular. His numbers are up over the last year or two but we have not got to the point where it is 100% or anything near it. We put a dog up on the website. Pre pandemic, we might have had two or three people interested in it and now you could have a couple of hundred people interested in an animal. There was research in the UK by Pets for Home. It sells animals through its stores and whatever. Its website had more than 2 million hits of people looking for puppies in one week. Whether it is pester power from kids or people looking for companionship and being at home and having time out, the demand not only for dogs but also for cats has gone up exponentially from pre-Covid times.

Thinking of the puppies are for life, not for Christmas campaigns, has the DSPCA seen anything coming back to normality of the post-Christmas situation?

Mr. Brian Gillen

No. We get phone calls all right, but the way the DSPCA is approaching it is that we have a training academy attached and we have 25 or 26 dog trainers on our books. If someone has a problem, we will introduce them to the dog trainer and they will try and resolve the problem with the animal at the person's home rather than opting for a straight surrender situation. Yes, we have seen a bit of that, probably in the past two to three months, but it is certainly not a deluge, it is a trickle and the issues that we are getting, we try to tackle directly with the dog owners and keep the dog where it is. There are a number of initiatives such as dogs at work that will help with that over time.

Would Mr. Gillen like to see any changes in respect of the powers of authorising officers? Is there a limit to what an authorised officer can or cannot do or the places he or she can or cannot access?

Mr. Brian Gillen

There is a limit, but my view is that they are probably there and they are right. We cannot stop a vehicle. We can search and get warrants and so on, but much of the work that authorised officers do is in co-operation with An Garda Síochána. Some of the situations that we go into really necessitate that. A bit of a balance is being struck there. My sense is that we probably have the power side of this just about right.

I thank our guests. I am finding this very interesting. Some of the issues are new to me and are surprising. I would like, as a layperson, to get a better sense of the DSPCA. What is its relationship with the ISPCA? It seems to be a very big operation. We have the Monaghan Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals in my county, which comprises a small group of volunteers who co-ordinate and operate a kennel together. The DSPCA seems like a much bigger operation. Is that correct?

Mr. Brian Gillen

We were established in 1840. The good people of Dublin have been very kind to us over the years. We are quite well resourced. We have a 34-acre site in Rathfarnham. On that site, we have the shelter operation and what we call our pet hotel. We do dog boarding, we have doggy day care, we have a cattery and we run a training academy out of that. All of those target the prevention of cruelty. They assist dog owners who may be going on holidays or whatever. We have a big education brief. We have an education department. During Covid-19, that has been operating online throughout Ireland. Employee-wise we have three people in that department and ten or 12 volunteers who give talks in schools. We have an equine side to what we do. We are part of the Dublin regional horse welfare committee. We run programmes with the local authorities, the local schools and the horse projects around Dublin. We run projects such as horse aware week where we go into an area, usually a deprived area, and we run talks for a week and have an open day maybe in the horse project at the end of that.

In terms of scale we have approximately 62 or 63 employees. We have our own veterinary team which comprises four veterinarians and three veterinarian nurses. We have four inspectors. We are a quite well-structured, robust organisation.

In the context of animal numbers, we rehome approximately 1,000 dogs and about 1,000 cats in a normal year. Probably 50% of pets in the country reside in the Dublin catchment area, so we are quite large in that context as we deal with a large population.

In regard to the ISPCA relationship, that is a different organisation with no contact. We co-operate and collaborate on operations. Mr. Kinsella, in particular, talks to Mr. Conor Dowling in the ISPCA. Up to 60 or 70 years ago, the DSPCA was the only organisation in the country. It was an umbrella organisation. That changed in 1950 or thereabouts and the ISPCA was formed. It was a collection of smaller SPCAs around the country which formed under an umbrella group. It has been involved in operating dog pounds and being dog wardens. We do not do any of that. We are purely welfare. That is our brief. We do not get involved in operating dog pounds or any of that. That is my advert.

That is a good explainer. The DSPCA has a 34-acre site in Rathfarnham. It is sitting on a potential goldmine if everyone decides to retire at once or if all the animal issues are resolved.

Mr. Brian Gillen

I will tell the Deputy the story. It is only a short story. In the 1930s, we were left five acres in the middle of Rathfarnham. That was rezoned and swapped for the site we have now. That is where it came from. These were benefits to the Celtic tiger.

I am glad to hear it. From what Mr. Gillen said, I gather the DSPCA has three strands of funding: commercial funding, charitable donations and the State and local authority funding. What proportion comes from each?

Mr. Brian Gillen

Government funding is roughly 15% to 20%; commercial funding could be 60%, depending on the year; and the balance is our charity fundraising work.

That is my curiosity dealt with. Moving on to the issues the witnesses are here to discuss, is the issue of cropped ears increasing?

Mr. Brian Gillen

Unfortunately it is. It is very much a fashion-based, cosmetic thing, in particular breeds. Unfortunately, you can buy a kit online for €40 so you can do your dog's ears at home. The dogs then end up in places like ours. It is very much around bull breeds and, to some extent, some of the German breeds, Dobermans-----

Mr. Liam Kinsella

It is mainly Dobermans and pit bulls, mainly the bull breeds. The reason for it is money-based. If you buy a bull breed with his ears intact, for argument's sake, he costs €2,000. If you want to buy him with his ears cropped, you are looking at €3,500. It is the image that they create for the individual who wants one. Much of the stuff we are seeing in terms of cropping-----

Is this done to pups?

Mr. Liam Kinsella

Yes, this is done to the pups without anaesthetic, pain relief or veterinary treatment throughout the healing period. We recently seized one. With puppies, to a degree, it can be done fairly quickly. The case we are investigating was between four and six months old, so he would physically have had to have been held down or heavily sedated with veterinary medicine that should only be used by veterinary officers. We do not know what people are using. We carried out a number of operations with the gardaí where we found these kits and medicines from the Far East and all over the place. We are actually having those translated into English to see what drugs they are and what their make-up is.

These would be sedatives of some description.

Mr. Liam Kinsella

We think there could be steroids involved as well. What happened this poor animal is that it was claimed that he was bought with the ears already cropped. The only charge, and this is why we see this as something that has to be dealt with, we can bring against the individual is failure to provide veterinary care, that is, the animal was suffering. Half the ears had been sutured off and veterinary care was not sought, obviously no antibiotic was administered in the case of infection and no pain relief was provided. The only charge we can bring forward is failing to provide veterinary care for the animal.

If I am walking with a dog that has cropped ears, you must actually prove that I did it.

Mr. Brian Gillen

Exactly.

Mr. Liam Kinsella

If they are healed and you are walking with a dog with the ears cropped and healed, there is nothing we can do because it is past the need for veterinary care and cannot prove any suffering. It is when we have an animal with sutures still in the ears, when the ears are freshly cut, and the veterinary officer says this is freshly done within ten or 14 days or however long ago he or she estimates that we can bring a charge of failing to provide veterinary care. That is the only charge we can bring, that is, the ears being cut without pain relief and antibiotics.

Is the answer some form of legislative-----

Mr. Brian Gillen

What we are looking for is to make this illegal and you cannot own a dog that has cropped ears. It could be phased in over time. If we stop the importation of them, that would be a first step as well as stopping the showing of them. There are shows of these bull breeds and it is all about this macho thing of the appearance of the dog. If we could somehow put a cap on that, it would be very helpful.

Mr. Liam Kinsella

There is an example. Under the Control of Dogs Act, Dublin City Council, DCC, brought in legislation in 2007 because of a number of listed breed dogs that were roaming the streets freely. People and pets were being attacked. DCC brought in legislation so that after a set date, a person could not own a pit bull, for example. If you had a pit bull prior to the ban, that animal could stay in the community provided the animal was microchipped and either neutered or spayed. Once that animal died, it could not be replaced by a similar breed. If you wanted to get another dog, you could not get another pit bull or whatever the case may be.

When was that?

Mr. Liam Kinsella

That was in 2007.

Was that in Dublin?

Mr. Liam Kinsella

Yes, it was Dublin City Council. It was under the Control of Dogs Act. It was in the context of being a DCC tenant. It was very successful, eventually. It took a few months for people to get used to the idea. We saw the number of that particular breed of dog drop.

People no longer wanted to get one because they could be in breach of their tenancy agreement. It could probably be drafted in similar way in terms of the cropped ears.

The neighbour could have the same dog if they were not a tenant.

Mr. Liam Kinsella

Yes, but it did bring down the number. The number of pit bulls was huge. Something has to be done because we are seeing more and more of it. We are seeing it after the ears have healed, so we have no recourse and cannot do anything.

About 60% are microchipped, is that correct?

Mr. Brian Gillen

That is our understanding, yes.

What would Mr. Gillen's estimate be as to how many are registered? I have two dogs that are microchipped but I would not have a clue where to find out what information is associated with them.

Mr. Brian Gillen

We think up to 50% are not properly registered. We think the number of animals in this country properly registered could be as low as 30% to 35% of the overall population. We have no way of checking. It is based on the instances we see.

Is it the case that very few strays are coming in now as abandoned dogs?

Mr. Brian Gillen

Yes, we have very few strays at the moment.

Going back to pre-Covid time, what proportion would not be microchipped or would not have information on the microchip that would be of any use?

Mr. Liam Kinsella

As Mr. Gillen said earlier, many of them would be pups that were purchased and did not work out. They would be gotten rid of. People would drive up the mountain or to the quarry and let it out. If we found a microchip, in the bulk of those cases, it went back to the breeder. We contact the breeder who will say he or she sold that puppy six or eight months ago or whatever the case may be.

Mr. Brian Gillen

To answer the Deputy more directly, it would be the exception that we would come across a dog that is properly microchipped and registered to its owner.

On puppy farming, a couple of people in my constituency would be involved and they would correct me and say it is dog breeding and not puppy farming. Is there anybody involved in the practice, whatever we call it, that is operating what Mr. Gillen would consider to be a proper establishment? Is it the case that anybody involved in breeding pups at all should not be doing so?

Mr. Brian Gillen

No, I am not saying that at all. We believe in responsible breeding and in producing a good animal from that process. There are plenty of people in Ireland who are doing it properly. However, there are people who are not doing it properly, such as large farms where there are large numbers of breeding bitches. There can be 500 or 600 bitches, which is just not acceptable.

How many such establishments would there be? It is hard to imagine that level.

Mr. Brian Gillen

There are two or three at that level. There are more than 100 that have probably 20 to 25, or maybe 30, bitches. That is the sort of parish we are in.

Mr. Gillen is indicating a maximum of 30, more or less.

Mr. Brian Gillen

We would like to see a maximum of 30 bitches on one site.

Is this with the Irish Kennel Club, IKC, standards in place?

Mr. Brian Gillen

The IKC is backing that up. It has a code of conduct and that is reflected in that. It adopted this as part of its code of conduct.

Are some of these breeders registered with, or members of, the IKC?

Mr. Brian Gillen

Correct.

What proportion of overall dogs bred are affiliated with the IKC?

Mr. Brian Gillen

Overall, in terms of dogs bred in Ireland, IKC related ones represent probably 10% to 15% of total.

That is a low number.

Mr. Brian Gillen

Those people are involved in things like showing their dogs. They bring in sires from the UK for mating purposes and they avoid things such as the intergenerational breeding of dogs. There is a lot of genetic stuff going on here to produce a good animal, which is contrary to what we see in the puppy farms.

As a matter of interest, would those large 500 or 600 bitch puppy farms be using AI?

Mr. Brian Gillen

One particular establishment comes to mind. I am aware of an establishment that produces a breed that is a cross between a Siberian husky and Pomeranian. That is all done by AI. That farm is in Limerick. I was asked not to identify people, but that is the situation there. That is all done by AI. However, it is totally alien that you would put those two breeds together.

I thank Mr. Gillen and I thank the Chair.

Senator Boylan has indicated she would like to speak.

Mr. Gillen touched on the need for genetics, which is another big problem with puppy farms. There are behavioural and congenital issues that come out of puppy farms. I have been working with the witnesses on animal health and welfare and the need to be able to be dispose of the animal, which is the legal term, although it really means rehome it. Will Mr. Gillen elaborate on the significant costs associated with looking after and managing the animals until they go through the courts? If there is a prosecution, I assume the organisation will not get its fees back. The cost of that is on the establishment.

On microchipping, people should register when their dog dies as well, but most do not do that. We saw much hysteria around dog theft during the pandemic. When I met Mr. Gillen, he mentioned the importance of gardaí, who are on the road, and local authorities having scanners. Will Mr. Gillen explain why it is important for local authority cleansing departments and the Garda Síochána to carry portable scanners in their cars?

The last question is on issues around shelters. There are many shelters in this country and many people are doing good work in shelters. Is it a problem that we do not have a set standard for what a shelter is? Do we need something like that? Do we need to tighten that up? Someone said to me, although I do not know if it is true, that sometimes dog breeding establishments set up shelters to rehome breeding bitches and stud dogs when they are finished with them. Tying that in with the need to regulate shelters, has Mr. Gillen come across this?

Mr. Brian Gillen

There is quite a bit there. On the five-day thing and the costs, the point I was trying to get across was that there is no provision here. The State does not pick up the costs. However, it is to do with the welfare of the animal. The costs are an issue, and it is unfair that the State expects the likes of ourselves, as charities, to shoulder the costs. There is no provision for the gardaí to shoulder the cost of this. The animals are just seized. We would, because of our working relation with the gardaí, attempt to help out. You soon learn your lesson. In one situation, we had American XL bullies that had to be delivered by Caesarean section and this kind of thing. The dogs were with us for the guts of a year. The only way of recovering your costs is through the courts and in many cases that proves to be impossible. In some of the local authorities, there are situations where people pay upfront for the costs of the dogs being kept while they are waiting to go to court. The State should pick up the tab or the owner of the animal, if he or she is that interested, should pay the costs while it is with us. It is not properly registered and the microchip is absolute proof that a person owns the dog, we are free to rehome it if he or she is not the registered owner.

On the scanners, dog theft and related areas, we would like to see more scanners in use by cleansing departments and gardaí. It has been an issue for years, particularly with cats. They disappear and the owners never know what happened. These are smaller areas but they are important. If it is your animal, you would like to know what happened. It is great issuing scanners, but if the fundamental problem of the databases and all dogs being chipped is not addressed, you can have thousands of scanners doing nothing. We need to address the core issue and then build on it with scanners.

In other jurisdictions, such as Germany, every police car has a scanner. That is just the way it is. There is much looking at stray animals and puppies coming from eastern Europe.

I would like to see shelter standards across the board. In Ireland, there are many one-man band operations. We do not get involved. We try to run our own house and we operate to the standards that we operate to but it needs to be looked at.

I call Deputy Browne.

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. I apologise for being late. Some of the issues I would like to discuss may have been covered already. I welcome the witnesses. I congratulate some of their members and the gardaí who targeted a place in Clonmel, the county where the Chairman and I are from. Last month they seized 18 dogs and three cats. It is a good story, in that one of the dogs finished back up with its owners in Mullingar. Will Mr. Gillen tell us what is involved in carrying out an operation like that? What happens subsequently? Is there a legal follow-up? I know one man was arrested in that operation. How long does it take? I can imagine it is depressing how long the court system takes.

Mr. Brian Gillen

No, it is better than it was. Please go on; we will come to that.

Inspectors have the power to enter onto any land where they suspect a protected animal may be kept. Is there a grey area where cows, sheep and goats are being held or kept? Can an inspector enter a farm? In practice, how is that system working? If there are horses or cows on a farm and an inspector knows something is going there, is he or she allowed in or is he or she restricted from entering?

Mr. Brian Gillen

I thank the Deputy for his question. To put the Deputy's mind at ease, since the Animal Health and Welfare Act came in, we have moved away from the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and go through a State solicitor via the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. That has improved the timing of when animals come in, when cases start and when they get to court. That is a positive in terms of the implementation of it.

On how it works on the ground, if we were going in somewhere in an operation, it is usually on the back of a warrant. We would get a search warrant. Depending on where it was, we would get backup from gardaí. In general, we do not get involved with farm animals, as the Deputy has alluded to. It is not in our authorisation that we go onto farms. We do not deal with bovines, pigs or anything. It is a joint operation when it comes down to that. We had a very large operation last October. There was a petting farm on which there were sheep and some cattle and the Department came in with us. We looked after all the pet-related things and the Department looked after the other things.

On what happens after animals are seized, that is one of the points I raised at the start of this meeting. What happens to the animals is a major issue for us. It is not in the animal's interest that it stays in our facility for two years while we are waiting for the case to go to court. There needs to be some process whereby if it is a dog, for example, you have some definitive proof of ownership that is presented. If that proof of ownership is not presented, then it is not your dog. We would still prosecute you as being the person in charge under the Act, but we should be in a position to rehome the animal. After all, the law is all about the welfare of the animal, not the welfare of the person. The animal needs to be moved out of the situation where it is left or incarcerated, for want of a word. We are not a dog prison and we do not want to be. Unfortunately, that is the direction we have been going in with seized animals.

In many cases, we look for a surrender and that happens. The owner of the animal is encouraged by our inspectors or, indeed, the gardaí to surrender the animals to us. Once that happens, we can then move the animals along and get them rehomed. We can get them medical attention above and beyond just caring for their injuries or whatever. We first microchip and neuter them and other stuff like that, and then we get them a home. We push for a surrender of the animals.

How are the new regulations on the sale of pups online working? Should all local authorities be required to maintain a list of dog breeding establishments on their websites for public viewing? I understand only around half of the councils do this.

Mr. Brian Gillen

We sort of touched on the first question earlier, so I would like to take the second question first. Our drive here is that we would like to see the whole lot moved out of the local authorities and puppy farm matters administered by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine centrally where there would be a centralised database and there would be full traceability of who is selling these animals. Consumers could get back to the breeder if there was an issue. That would bring it out in the open and stop the deception and stop the cruelty.

On the regulation of online selling, we are underwhelmed with what we see. We do not see it making a huge difference. The Digital Services Act is coming out of Brussels and we would like to see the Government support it. It puts puppy selling up there with other nasty stuff like dope selling or smuggling. We would like to see it elevated to a serious crime and put on the books here.

Thank you. Some members are attending the meeting remotely. There is no one indicating that they would like to ask any questions of the witnesses. On behalf of the committee, I thank the representatives of Dublin Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, DSPCA, for sharing their views on this legislation, on how it is working in practice and on the outstanding issues. Thank you very much for coming in. You gave a very comprehensive view to us and highlighted the issues there.

I propose we suspend the meeting for ten minutes to allow the witnesses for the next session to join us.

Sitting suspended at 6.38 p.m. and resumed at 6.57 p.m.
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