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Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine debate -
Wednesday, 9 Feb 2022

Hedgerows, Carbon and Biodiversity: Hedgerows Ireland

I remind members, witnesses and those in the Public Gallery to turn off their mobile phones. I welcome Dr. Alan Moore and the representatives of Hedgerows Ireland and thank them for coming before the committee today to engage with us on hedgerows, carbon and biodiversity.

In regard to Covid-19, with effect from 25 January 2022, members and witnesses have the option of attending committee meetings in the relevant committee room rather than participating via MS Teams. Masks should continue to be worn by those present when not addressing the committee. Room capacity will continue to be reduced in the short term until all microphones and seating can be returned.

Witnesses giving evidence within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means a witness has full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as far as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third party or entity. Witnesses who are to give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matter arising from the proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or any official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to the utterances of members participating online in a committee meeting when their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. There can be no assurance in relation to participation online from outside the parliamentary precincts, and members should be mindful of this when they are contributing.

Today's witnesses representing Hedgerows Ireland are Dr. Alan Moore, secretary; Ms Lilian O'Sullivan, external expert, Teagasc; Mr. Michael Hickey, committee member and beef farmer; Ms Shirley Clerkin, heritage officer, Monaghan County Council; and Mr. Donal Sheehan, diary farmer and project manager. Mr. Sheehan is joining us remotely. I invite Dr. Moore to make his opening remarks before we have questions from the members.

Dr. Alan Moore

I thank the members for inviting us to the attend the joint committee. The central message of our presentation is that Ireland's hedgerows are a fantastic asset in a range of different but complementary ways, but we are currently failing to value them, protect them and reward farmers for looking after them. As a consequence, they are being continually removed at a rate of thousands of kilometres a year, and because of the way they are managed, remaining hedgerows are often in poor condition and so are not providing all of the multiple benefits they could. For this reason, we are making a key recommendation that immediate steps are taken to protect our remaining hedgerows from further removal and that a number of other measures are adopted to improve both the management and payment systems for the future. Contrary to previous teaching and advice, it is now accepted that the net economic, climate, biodiversity and social benefits of hedgerows on farms fully justify the land that they occupy on all farms, including tillage and intensive dairy farms, where the losses are often the greatest. Recommending better protection and payment for hedgerows is fully in line with the latest thinking and research on how Ireland can meet our very demanding carbon and climate goals.

Good quality hedgerows do vital things, including carbon sequestration, playing an increasingly important role in flood control, water quality and soil improvement, and providing shelter, shade, disease control, biodiversity sanctuary, and landscape definition - literally how our countryside looks. Despite these benefits, 2,000 km to 6,000 km of hedgerows are still being removed annually in Ireland. The lower figure is from the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, which seems very high in itself, but the extraordinary higher figure of 6,000 km is from the recently published Monaghan hedgerow survey, in which Ms Clerkin was involved. This means that on our watch, a resource that is vital for so many reasons is being lost at a huge rate. We are literally grubbing up and destroying a vital asset, and this is happening on our watch.

Why does it matter? I want to focus briefly on two particular benefits, namely, carbon sequestration and biodiversity. Carbon sequestration is now seen as crucial to farming and the new carbon farming business. The figures for hedgerows are very significant indeed. The Teagasc farm carbon hedgerow project is working on this at the moment, using drone technology. By early next year, we will have a carbon score at an individual farm scale, which has massive implications for carbon accounting as we reach towards our reduction goals. Ms O'Sullivan will be happy to answer questions about it. What is already known is that bigger, wider, taller, denser and more mature hedges store far more carbon. Early results show that approximately 600,000 tonnes of carbon are stored by our hedgerows but the potential could be 1 million tonnes and upwards. The higher figures are directly related to good management methods, the avoidance of, for example, severe or excessive cutting, and, of course, stopping further removal.

Looking at biodiversity, good quality hedgerows are a vital habitat for animals, bird and insect species, particularly pollinators, which as we know are under severe threat. Two thirds of our native birds either feed or nest or both in hedgerows, and they are home to more than 600 of our 800 flowering plants. Because of our very low forest cover, which is 11% compared with the European average of 40%, hedges play a correspondingly far greater role in our biodiversity. We have a lot more to lose if we continue on our current path. Our hedgerows have been described as Ireland’s equivalent of the Amazon rainforest. Again, management techniques are critically important to biodiversity here.

If we are removing thousands of kilometres of hedgerows annually, are there no protective checks and balances against this? First, hedgerows have no direct protection under current law. Indirect protection only is provided during the nesting season under section 40 of the Wildlife Act. In practice, this legislation is unwieldy, has many exemptions and provides no protection out of the so-called closed season. In fact, it is considered to be in breach of the EU birds directive. Second, where landowners plan to remove more than 500 m of hedgerow, they are supposed to apply to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine under the environmental impact assessment regulations. In practice, 95% of these applications are given the go-ahead. In a recent study, no environmental assessments were carried out in the five-year study period. Under cross-compliance, if you take out a hedgerow, you are supposed to plant an equivalent length before removal to continue your basic payments.

We know, however, that a new hedge will take 20 to 50 years to reach the same carbon and biodiversity values. We have concerns about the level of oversight of this replanting and the quality and species diversity of what is being replanted. Hedgerow quality is a huge concern. Ms Clerkin's recent Monaghan study and another study in the south east last year found that only about 10% of hedgerows are in good condition. Excessive cutting and herbicide and fertiliser use were the main issues, as were neglect and a lack of rejuvenation. Ms Clerkin's study is devastating in its findings.

As for education and training, there are currently no hedge management certification courses running. They used to take place but there has been nothing for several years. There is, however, the excellent annual Hedgerow Week, run by Catherine Keena of Teagasc, as well as online Teagasc information.

As for Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, payments, we do not know what the final schemes will be but it looks like the recommendations of our group and several others have not been included. It was suggested that the quality and management of existing hedgerows be rewarded under both Pillar 1 and Pillar 2 schemes, giving a financial incentive for taller, wider and more productive hedges. CAP is good on new planting, and that is great, but it is missing out on an easy win in respect of our existing hedges.

As for forestry, hedgerows are effectively being lost to forestry with exotic species because the recommendations of the EPA BioForest project are not being followed in respect of minimum setback distances, which are needed to ensure that hedges are not shaded to destruction.

We have made five recommendations. The first is that legal protection for hedgerows, by either a new amendment to the Wildlife Act 1976 or new legislation, be considered. In the immediate term, the interpretation and implementation of the environmental impact assessment, EIA, regulations by the Department should be urgently reviewed. Third, the new CAP schemes should recognise and reward good hedgerow management. Fourth, hedge management courses and certification should be reintroduced. It should be a requirement that hedge-cutting contractors complete these, as with the requirements for pesticide spraying, for example. Hedgerow management deserves to be a specialty area. Finally, implementation of the EPA recommendations on setback from hedgerows in forestry should take place.

I will ask one question for clarification before I open up the floor to Members. Ms Clerkin might wish to respond because the matter is dealt with in her report. How can fertiliser have a negative impact on hedgerows?

Ms Shirley Clerkin

Because of its high level of phosphates, fertiliser, if it is spread too close to a hedge or if the run-off from it reaches a hedgerow, can affect the species diversity of a hedgerow. The floristic diversity of a hedge is one of its quality features. It can house a variety of flora. If it has too much nutrient input, you end up with a lot of nettle and dock and a few other species, so it results in a lower quality hedge because of a lower number of species. That is how fertiliser affects hedgerows.

Could Dr. Moore expand a little on the implementation of the EPA recommendations on setback from hedgerows and forestry?

Dr. Alan Moore

The EPA BioForest project recommended a minimum setback from new forestry plantation in order to allow hedgerows to flourish where they are being impinged by new forestry. A distance of 7 m was recommended, but currently a distance of 3 m is being applied. One recommendation is that the EPA study is implemented. The effect of the shorter distance is that hedgerows are being encroached and obliterated by new coniferous forestation.

I thank Ms Clerkin and Dr. Moore for those clarifications.

I welcome our guests. We have met Dr. Moore and Mr. Hickey before. The sector we are talking about is struggling to deal with paperwork, red tape and so on as it is, and farming is so difficult these days. Will the suggestions the witnesses are presenting us with result in farmers having to wade through a raft of further regulations, or is there a way in which the benefits of good hedgerows can fit into established practices?

Dr. Alan Moore

I will take that question and might then hand it over to Mr. Hickey or Mr. Sheehan. Essentially, our position is that this is a win-win situation and that hedgerows could provide a real way forward in meeting our carbon and biodiversity challenges. We strongly recommend that farmers are paid for good-quality hedgerows. We do not foresee extra paperwork or extra difficulty - far from it. We think there would be a win-win all around. In answering the Deputy's question, I wish to turn, if I may, to Mr. Sheehan, who is working on the Biodiversity Regeneration in a Dairying Environment, BRIDE, project, to talk about the benefits to him of good-quality hedgerows.

Mr. Donal Sheehan

Thank you, Chairman, for the opportunity to speak to your committee, and I thank Dr. Moore for the invitation. My name is Donal Sheehan. I am a dairy farmer who milks 72 spring-calving dairy cows in Castlelyons, part of the River Bride valley area of north Cork. As well as being a farmer, I am one of the people involved in the BRIDE project. The project is one of many European Innovation Partnership projects, EIPs, scattered throughout the country. Ours was set up to provide a template and a knowledge transfer for the wider agricultural community on different aspects of environmental and sustainable food production practices. It is funded by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the EU. It was initiated by two farmers and an ecologist, all frustrated by the way our farming system was damaging the environment while farmers themselves were being blamed by the public. There was a need to showcase a more positive image as well as improving biodiversity and water quality and reducing our carbon footprint. The project aims to incentivise farmers to retain all their natural farmland habitats, that is, what is called the space for nature. That term is now widely used not just here but in the EU generally. We also incentivise farmers to increase the space for nature, especially where habitats such as hedgerows have been removed over the years. The project pays out capital funding of €2,000 per farmer for the creation of new habitats such as hedgerows and woodlands. It also provides an annual results-based payment based on the ecological quality of the various habitats, including hedgerows, found on the farm.

To answer Deputy Browne's question, because I am a farmer, I am very much aware of the paperwork involved in farming nowadays, especially for a generation that may not be used to it. There is no paperwork involved in hedgerow management. You use a mechanical hedge cutter. You side-trim the hedgerows; you do not top them. Our project offers lower payments where hedgerow management is poorer. If your hedges have the standard short, back and sides, we will call it, that is not the way we want them managed, so you will get a lower payment. If the hedgerows are allowed to mature and to grow, you get more or less the top payment. I am not sure if the committee has hard copies of my presentation - I sent it on as a Word document - but the scorecards for both new hedgerows and existing hedgerows are on it. Ultimately, we want farmers to start managing their hedgerows in a similar fashion, with everyone singing from the same environmental hymn sheet. As Dr. Moore said, there needs to be a payment for these habitats because there is currently no value placed on them. There is no legal protection in respect of them.

As Members will see in the presentation if they have it, we funded farmers to the tune of €100,000 last year for putting in capital measures such as hedgerows, woodlands, ponds, field margins, etc. All of them can be taken out because of the Wildlife Act. There is a discrepancy in the Act. I will quote the relevant passage in the Act because it is quite interesting.

It states:

40. - (1)(a) It shall be an offence for a person to cut, grub, burn or otherwise destroy, during the period beginning on the 1st day of March and ending on the 31st day of August in any year, any vegetation growing on any land not then cultivated.

(b) It shall be an offence for a person to cut, grub, burn or otherwise destroy any vegetation growing in any hedge or ditch during the period mentioned in paragraph (a) of this subsection.

Section 40(2) states:

(2) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply in relation to -

(a) the destroying, in the ordinary course of agriculture or forestry, of any vegetation growing on or in any hedge or ditch;

In other words, a person is not allowed to take out hedgerows except in the business of farming. It might seem severe to farmers who are listening but that has done more damage to farming because our image is being ruined. We are perceived as being the destroyers of the environment. We cannot blame farmers as this is the price of cheap food production, with habitats being removed purely to increase food production. Until there is some sort of protection and value put on our hedgerows and all other natural habitats, this will continue.

Ms Clerkin mentioned the value of hedgerows allowed to mature. Am I right in saying it is like forestry in that the ability to sequester carbon is dependent on the age of the species involved?

Dr. Alan Moore

I suggest that could be directed to both Ms Clerkin and Ms O'Sullivan because there are both biodiversity and carbon elements to the question.

Ms Shirley Clerkin

I can speak to the age of a hedgerow first. What we are saying is there is a large resource of hedgerows in Ireland now right across the country. It is a habitat with which everyone is familiar. In some ways, as a result, it is kind of a shifting baseline. We have not really noticed the damage we have done to it. The Monaghan survey carried out last year is an exact replica of a study done in 2010. It uses a template and survey methodology that was agreed by Woodlands of Ireland and the Heritage Council way back between 2010 and 2012. It has been used across 21 counties at this stage but we are the first county to repeat it. We did so because during the consultation for the biodiversity and heritage plan of County Monaghan, we got many submissions about hedgerow quality, quantity and concerns from members of the public. As a result of that intervention by the public, it was entered as an action in our biodiversity and heritage plan. That is why we repeated the study.

The study indicates we clearly have a problem with the removal of hedges. It is quite a high percentage - perhaps 9% - over the past ten years. It also demonstrates that because of overmanagement in some cases and undermanagement in others, the resource has been damaged. Such issues can be addressed, however, and the position I want to emphasise is that older hedges are better. They are longer established and have more species diversity in them. Townland boundaries in particular have more species diversity because they often go right back to Gaelic times and are early medieval boundaries. The enclosure of fields for agriculture thereafter is a little more modern but they are still really important for biodiversity. They have fungal networks under the hedges and retain carbon under and within the hedges when they grow, which is a biomass value.

There is a role for hedges in biodiversity, nutrients, buffering for ditches and water courses, habitats and connectivity in the landscape, particularly now in a time of climate change and more intense weather patterns. They act as flood control and mitigation and allow the landscape to be much more resilient. They are very important. We found 88% of the hedges in Monaghan were "unfavourable" in our survey, with 55% of this due to "gappiness" and 40% due to nutrient enrichment. Approximately 75% of them are affected by poaching and not being fenced properly. Virgin diversity has decreased as well. Many of these factors can be addressed, and that is the point we want to make today. There is a major opportunity for the farming sector to contribute to biodiversity in Ireland very simply by changing the management practices of the hedgerows and having contractors managing them in different ways. Farmers could in some cases put less effort into managing their hedgerows, making them wider and allowing them to be fenced off. Perhaps they could graze them at the end of the summer. There could be a reward scheme for good-quality hedges.

It is advocated in the report and we echo the call for a results-based payments scheme for hedgerows based on the quality of the hedges. That is just as Mr. Sheehan has said. If a hedge is bigger, wider, absorbing more carbon and providing more species and benefits to livestock as shelter, for example, the farmer should get a higher payment. We would really love to see a scheme like that be introduced into Pillar 1 or Pillar 2 of the Common Agricultural Policy.

I take it the point being made is that replacing the hedgerows with new ones is setting back sequestration.

Ms Shirley Clerkin

Yes, it is. The Joint Research Centre of the European Commission recognises the role of new hedgerows for the connectivity of the landscape and connecting habitats. We can think of one's heart and the heart does not function without arteries. It is the same for nature as the other habitats attached to hedgerows will not function and will get progressively smaller without our hedgerows. They are a very important habitat.

A new hedgerow, if attached to older hedgerows, will see species move across and it will gradually become more species-rich and sequester more carbon over a longer period. We have an existing network, however. It is a bit like saying we should ignore the crown jewels we have in order to find a whole new set of diamonds buried somewhere in earth. We have these so let us use them and find a way to do something really positive for farming and nature. As Mr. Sheehan correctly states, it is positive for food productivity and the image of the food being produced in Ireland. We should be able to show our hedgerows as really good habitats that the farmers of Ireland are producing.

It was stated that between 2,000 km and 6,000 km of hedgerows are being taken away every year. Why are the figures so vague? As they are so vague, are we even getting true figures on the benefits of new hedgerows?

Ms Shirley Clerkin

In Monaghan, the survey was very exact in a sense. It came from a random selection but it was an exact random selection. County Monaghan, for example, is divided into approximately 12.5 km squares. There is a 10 km square and a 1 km square on the left-hand side box of each of those, and all the hedges in that were surveyed. That is the methodology for the survey right across the country.

In County Monaghan in 2010 we had 12,845 km of hedges and in 2021 we had 11,921 km of hedges, meaning we probably lost 1,154 km of hedges in our small county. Now I know we are a drumlin landscape and there may be other factors. I certainly know from anecdotal evidence and speaking with colleagues in other counties that similar concerns come to them as heritage officers in their local authorities. The Deputy knows how heritage officers are in contact with local communities. We have contacts in local areas all around our counties and that is the news coming to us. It is worrying but we can do something. That is the important point. Planting new hedgerows where none exists is always good but keeping what we have and improving them is equally or more important.

Dr. Moore has worked for the past number of years with Irish Rail about hedges. Has there been any improvement in that respect?

Dr. Alan Moore

We are not aware of any improvement with Irish Rail. Our engagement with the company was essentially unsatisfactory. In brief, we were concerned that with fencing replacement operations, the method being used was to remove the entire hedgerow rather than working with the existing one. That project led us to discover all the issues the committee has heard about this evening, including a lack of protection of hedgerows and the failure to implement environmental assessments when removal is proposed. We do not feel we have got very far with Irish Rail but the recommendations we make will protect not only Irish Rail hedgerows but the entire network being discussed this evening.

I welcome the guests this evening and I have a couple of brief questions to tease out some facts from the statement.

While I am a farmer and a farmer at heart, I do not want to come across as negative. I want to get to the kernel of the issue and get some more information. Depending on what one reads, we are talking about approximately 380,000 km, give or take, of hedgerow in the country. That amounts to 4% of the land. If that is turned into square kilometres, it is 690 sq. km. How does that compare with other countries? I drive in continental Europe a lot and I would not see a hedge on the side of the road at all. As I said, I am not trying to be anti-anything that was said here because I agree, we have issues when it comes to biodiversity. I accept what Mr. Sheehan is doing and what he said in that we are farmer bashing here. We have to remember that somebody preserved, is the custodian of, and cares for, albeit not to the standard the witnesses require, those 380,000 km. Perhaps I can be provided with a comparison, but I believe this is way ahead of the European norm. The farmers have within reason and without compensation, which I would welcome and is being sought, been the custodians of those hedgerows. Many of those hedgerows have survived. I do not want the message going out from this committee that we are knocking the farmers again for having gouged them all. Many hedgerows have survived, but perhaps not as much as the witnesses would like.

I have a couple of other questions on when surveys are done. In regard to sequestration value and the carbon storage value, how accurate is the science being used? When will we get a definitive figure? I refer to when we are calculating those figures and will use my own example. I built a house in rural Ireland on a site between a quarter to a half acre in size. It is nearly all shrubs, bushes and hedges. Is that taken into consideration when calculations are done? That half-acre site, rather than having cows or bulls on it, is literally green and if herself at home had her way, it would all be green. There are many houses around Ireland on quarter-acre or half-acre sites that are in complete greenery, other than the side of the house or the driveway. Do we consider that when we are doing our calculations? If that is a farmer's home, when the hedges around his fields or his paddocks are included, would he get credit for those around the half acre?

The setback between hedgerow and forestry was referred to. The Animal Health and Welfare and Forestry (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, having gone through the Dáil, was before the Seanad yesterday. It will open up the positivity of planting up to 1 ha of riparian or agroforestry without licence. What role will that measure play? I need more information about the setbacks and how hedgerows affect forestry. From a hedgerow point of view, will it be more of a hindrance than a help to biodiversity and the environment? I would like that explained further.

In situations of hedge cutting and the open and closed season, the issue of roadside safety will always be raised. What is the solution to that issue? Those hedges have to be trimmed every year. How does one incorporate that from a safety point of view?

Dr. Alan Moore

I will start with some of the initial questions and then pass to Ms O'Sullivan and possibly Mr. Hickey. The Senator mentioned the 380,000 km of hedgerows. In fact, we have perhaps double that amount. The estimate from the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, is that we have up to 700,000 km of hedgerow but many of them are in poor condition. What we do not have is native woodlands. We have about 1.5% of cover for native woodlands. In essence, our hedgerows are our woodland cover. That is why they are relatively more important in this country compared with other countries. We have better hedgerows than, for example, continental Europe, but in comparison with the UK we are not doing so well. In answer to the question about the measurement of scrub and bushes and so on, I will hand over to Ms O'Sullivan. She has the answers on the farm carbon survey.

Ms Lilian O'Sullivan

I thank Dr. Moore for inviting me here and Senator Daly for his question on the science and where we are in terms of carbon stock sequestration and so forth. It is important to point out that Teagasc has been working in collaboration with partners since 2010 to explore the climate regulation potential of hedgerows and, in particular, their relevance to land-use budgets. Of course, we all know the linear structures we see in agricultural landscapes which consist of shrubs and trees. While they are primarily agricultural field borders and boundaries and form part of the farms, they are counted under the land use category in the inventories.

For the purpose of accounting mechanisms, there are a few things we need to know. We need to be able to give the amount of carbon stored in hedgerows nationally. We need to know the annual sequestration figures, that is the amount of additional new carbon that is stored in the growing hedgerow every year. To do that we need to know that the extent of the hedgerows, such as the width, height and the type, the extent of management that has been applied and, if there are trees etc., whether they are new or old. We need to know a typical amount of carbon that is stored in hedgerows, which is not only in the above-ground biomass. It is present in the woody biomass, in the leaves as well as carbon in the below-ground biomass in the roots and in the soils under the hedgerow, in addition to the leaf litter that is cycled back into the system.

In answering some of those questions, a lot of research has been done on understanding the hedgerow extent. The first hedgerow map was published in 2011, which estimated that 6% of the country was covered in hedgerow and scrub, non-forest trees and woody plants, with up to 12% cover in County Monaghan. Subsequent to that, there was a further project that used light detection and ranging, or LiDAR, a laser scanning technique. It was tested for its ability to estimate the amount of biomass from which the amount of carbon storage and sequestration can be inferred. From that work, we got some of the numbers that are often cited. We know LiDAR is very effective in accurately measuring biomass. Using published models, we are able to garner those national estimates. There is anywhere between 0.3 and 1.1 mega tonnes of CO2 per annum, which is not insignificant. As LiDAR is expensive, further projects were commenced. We have had the BRIAR project, which explored the potential of radar, but ultimately LiDAR or photogrammetry from aircraft or drone are required to get accurate estimates of biomass. We obtained the figure of about 680,000 km from that work.

One of the issues that repeatedly come up is that we need to take some direct measurements of biomass so that we can use them to quantify carbon stock changes for these inventories. The challenge is to track carbon stock change over time on a national scale. The current project I am leading is called the farm carbon project. In the earlier work, previously published models were used, but they were built on published forestry models. This is the first time we are characterising the relationship between biomass and carbon through field studies. Ultimately, what we are doing is relating biomass to a remote measurement that is then measured for carbon. We will then have true data that will allow us to build biomass functions whereby a remote measurement detects a certain amount of biomass that can then indicate a certain carbon stock. The idea is that one can see whether that increases or decreases over time. That work is ongoing. It is being pushed through the laboratory and we expect to publish results by September. We are also developing a scorecard that will allow for a rapid in-field assessment as to the quality of a hedgerow from a carbon perspective.

Dr. Alan Moore

In response to Senator Daly's question about forestry, this group focuses on the issue of hedgerows, but in general terms, we acknowledge the need for forestry plantation, provided it reflects native species to a reasonable percentage because of the lack of native species, that is, the figure of 1.5% I mentioned.

The setback relates to the encroachment on hedgerows by new forestry. We recommend simply that setback is in line with the recommendations in order that hedgerows are not further damaged.

What distance did Dr. Moore say the recommended setback is?

Dr. Alan Moore

It is 7 m.

Basically, Hedgerows Ireland is requesting that, if I buy into whatever scheme is coming down the line and sow my hectare of trees, I leave a 7 m gap between the hedge and my new strip of forestry.

Dr. Alan Moore

That was the recommendation of the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, project but it is not being implemented, certainly not at the moment. Again, our recommendation is that be looked at.

Mr. Michael Hickey

I do not think the scheme the Senator is talking about is applicable in this instance. That is a brand new scheme and the distance of 7 m would pertain to forests. It will be looked at in the future but I am sure it will not be 7 m for a hectare because there would not be much left for forestry in that case.

As for our European cousins, we have all seen and travelled across Germany, France and so forth, where the hedgerows have gone. Instead they have blocks of forestry in much greater number than we do. They are therefore able to meet their carbon sequestration targets that way, whereas our forestry cover is very low - I think it is 11% - and our hedgerows make up 6% of our land.

As for the bigger picture, worldwide, the tipping point for carbon dioxide is now 350 parts per million. We are at well over 400 parts per million, so the knocking is way past the door at this stage. We need to do something. As Ms O'Sullivan has pointed out, we have this jewel in front of us in our hedgerows that we can claim as carbon sequestration and we are not using it. We are not counting it.

Mr. Donal Sheehan

May I comment on the questions Senator Daly asked?

Briefly, please, Mr. Sheehan.

Mr. Donal Sheehan

I do not think the question about roadside safety was answered. In the BRIDE project, roadside hedges are scored in the same way as internal hedges. They are expected to be side-trimmed, but there is no obligation on any farmer to cut and shave them, as is often seen. Farmers get penalised if their hedges are overgrown and encroaching onto the road.

As for the half-acre's worth of carbon sequestration a farmer might have, we now have an app with which we score farmland habitats and we are able to measure accurately all habitats on a farm. Generally speaking, the gardens scored are usually full of ornamental species and there is a lot of pesticide use, though not always. There is bark mulch and lawn, which does not have a high biodiversity value compared with a native hedge.

It is great to have our guests here. They are very welcome. Dr. Moore has scrubbed up well since we last met on a wet, miserable day in the Chairman's constituency. It is good to see Ms Clerkin as passionate as ever about her areas of interest. I am excited about this conversation because I think there is great potential to address many of the challenges the committee deals with if we get hedgerow strategy right. It is probably the easiest thing our farmers can do to resolve some of the other big challenges we talk about, such as water quality, carbon emissions and biodiversity issues, while also being able to continue farming, which is obviously very important to them. The witnesses have dealt very well with the benefits of having good hedgerows in place. One issue I am not sure if they have touched on, and maybe there is a reason for that, is soil quality on adjoining fields. Are adjoining fields impacted by a wide span of hedgerows?

Dr. Alan Moore

I will start with that question and then maybe hand over to Ms O'Sullivan or Ms Clerkin. I think the research shows a significant benefit is conferred on the soil on either side of the hedgerow in that water is retained and the water level is raised. There is also the effect of pollinators on pest control and the stop to disease spreading. As for soil filtration, there is the effect of filtering out nutrients from getting into waterways and preventing soil loss during flash flooding, which is increasingly a problem. There is a long list of soil benefits, so I am glad the Deputy has raised the issue with us. I am not sure if any of the other witnesses would like to take up the issue of soil quality.

Ms Lilian O'Sullivan

I thank Deputy Carthy for his question. Related to that, and part of the work we are looking at in the farm carbon project, is whether there is a carbon accrual effect in soil under hedgerows. In the context of an arable setting, the research has shown elsewhere that soil under hedgerows accumulates more carbon. Thinking about hedgerows within their landscape is important. That same finding has not been borne out elsewhere in respect of grassland, so we will see what our results will show in that regard. Dr. Moore has already touched on many of the benefits, but it also depends on the depth of the soil and the way in which the rooting network will develop, which will in turn determine its impacts or effects. By and large, however, it is positive. That is the general sentiment in the context of the setting.

I wish to talk about the Monaghan project. I often explain in this committee and others that Monaghan is strange, even in agricultural terms. Traditionally, our holdings were very small, which made them unprofitable, which in turn has meant that farmers have largely moved into areas such as poultry or mushrooms, which are very intensive and considered environmentally damaging. However, if we did not have them we probably would not have the communities around them because there is no other employment or economic activity in the area. We therefore have to try to get the balance right.

As for hedgerows, I think the decline over the period has been visible throughout the country. I get the sense, however, that there is now a greater recognition of the importance of hedgerows. Maybe there has been a U-shaped trajectory and we are seeing a resurgence of hedgerows. I have been taken aback by the quality of the hedges that are there. Ms Clerkin says they are not delivering, even those that are there now, compared with ten years ago. She mentioned pesticides as maybe one of the influences, but what are the other influences? Why would that be the case?

Ms Shirley Clerkin

The survey covers about 25 different categories of assessment for the hedges. They are assessed on their composition and their species diversity across floral, woody and tree species and then on their structure, that is, their effectiveness for livestock management, gappiness and so on. That is actually measured. In Monaghan it was found that of the unfavourable hedgerows, which account for about 87% of all hedges, 55% showed a lot of gappiness. That would be over 25% gappiness in a hedgerow, which obviously affects the hedgerow's livestock value. It also-----

When Ms Clerkin says "gappiness", she mean gaps in the-----

Ms Shirley Clerkin

Yes, actual gaps, that is, the basal layer is no longer dense such that you can see right through the hedge right the way across it. That would be an impact of a lack of the right type of management, which can be addressed.

Another impact is nutrient enrichment. This can occur where there is possibly excessive use of fertiliser or slurry. The hedge acts as a nutrient barrier in some senses, but it gets to a point where it is too much, it cannot take any more and the species diversity starts to decline. That is when a shift is noticed in the amount and type of species growing in a hedge. That can be directly related to nutrient enrichment. It is like any habitat; you can continue to do something for a while and it is not always noticed, then you reach an environmental threshold and something shifts. That is what we found in the hedges in County Monaghan. Approximately 40% of the hedges that were in poor condition had nutrient enrichment. Some of them even had slurry spread directly onto them, affecting their ability to photosynthesise. Nobody would welcome such a practice. All of those are management issues. There is also the issue of poaching, which involves cattle getting onto the banks of hedges and affecting and taking out all of the undergrowth. The soil is then exposed and can run off into any ditch that is there. That then has a downstream impact with sedimentation. Farmers also lose a very valuable resource, namely, the soil, in this process. We found that 75% of hedges in Monaghan were affected by poaching. Hedgerows can be fenced off temporarily during the growing season and cows can be allowed back on later in the season, in late summer and autumn, to graze the understory and prevent brambles and blackthorn from growing out too far into the field. That is all about making a shift in hedgerow management. Many of the issues are about management.

That is what I was going to ask. Ms Clerkin mentioned over-management. I presume that she was referring to cutting the hedgerow back-----

Ms Shirley Clerkin

There is over-management where there is another percentage taken off. I believe Mr. Sheehan referred to the short back and sides. Over-management occurs where hedgerows have been shaved down to around 1 m or under 1.5 m and given a short back and sides, so they are just a box, effectively. One of the farming ambassadors for nature referred to them as rows of sticks. Such hedgerows do not actually function for the farms, as biodiversity habitats or for carbon sequestration at that stage.

When Ms Clerkin mentioned under-managment, was she referring to the issue of poaching? I presume that a hedge is left there and it is not being cut by domestic animals or humans, it is a good thing.

Ms Shirley Clerkin

Hedgerows need a little bit of management if they are to be retained as hedgerows. Every few years, they need to be trimmed at the sides so that they are not encroaching completely into the field. If a hedgerow is left to its own devices over time, it will either grow into a tree line or what is known as a relict hedge, which will no longer have any of the understory. That is very good. In fact, it gives other benefits. There are mature trees that can be used for other functions. For example, different songbirds will be in those trees, etc. However, as a hedgerow and an agricultural feature, they may not be as useful for a farm. What we are talking about here would be a results-based payment scheme for farmers that would recognise the value of hedgerows for biodiversity and carbon and their agricultural function, including acting as a barrier to livestock and enclosing fields. That should be taken into account.

As somebody who is involved in a local authority, perhaps Ms Clerkin is well placed to answer the following general question. In terms of State-owned lands, including local authority lands, is she satisfied there are adequate strategies in place to use those lands for these type of projects? I am often struck by land that is serving no purpose and is not used by the public but is perfectly manicured. It might be an ideal option to put these projects into practice.

Ms Shirley Clerkin

All agencies need to do more, including local authorities. All agencies need to play their part at this stage, with the climate crisis and the biodiversity crisis. Young people will start to raise these types of issues more in the coming ten years. Certainly, the all-island pollinator plan, which most local authorities have signed up to, has resulted in a percentage of local authority land having changed its management practices to accommodate better pollinating practices, for example, by changing parkland into species-rich grassland. It has also been done through changes in management. I do not refer to the planting of new species or anything like that, but changing management practices, including, reducing pesticides, changing the grazing regime or changing the cutting regime. Much of it is about changing our habits. We have got into a bad set of habits that we need to look at and change. Then we will be able to do a lot more than we are at the moment, without a lot of difficulty.

The one thing that will be thrown back at anybody who is engaging with farmers is the assertion that the farmers received State money to take out hedges and they are now being asked to put them back in. I suppose it is an example of the long-term damage done by ill thought-out policies. It has been outlined fairly well, but in terms of the actual mechanics of paying people for sequestering carbon and for maintaining hedges, do the witnesses see that as being best delivered through eco-schemes, agri-environmental schemes or another mechanism? That is considering that if we choose the former, there is a chance that perhaps the farmers that we most need to be encouraging to engage in these practices might not actually be participating in them. How do we get around that?

Dr. Alan Moore

I will start and then perhaps refer to Mr. Hickey. We felt that it was a real missed opportunity in the CAP that the quality of existing hedgerows was not recognised. We recommend that that should happen in both Pillar 1 and Pillar 2. Under the Pillar 1 eco-schemes, and the space for nature, for example, while hedgerows are recognised, there is no reference to the quality. It is a missed opportunity in that respect. The technology is available to actually measure the linear length and width of hedgerows. That could lead to a meaningful payment for hedgerow quality in that pillar. Under Pillar 2, the opportunity to look at existing hedgerow quality is even greater under the results-based schemes. Again, that opportunity was missed. There is a lot about rejuvenating, replanting and new planting, but nothing about existing hedgerow quality. Again, we think that could still be remedied. Perhaps Mr. Hickey can respond on the management issue.

Mr. Michael Hickey

As Dr. Moore has said, in respect of Pillar 1, we could make a payment for length and width of hedgerows even through the use of our camera in the sky. That could be done almost immediately. If that could be added to Pillar 1, it would be hugely beneficial. It would take in all of the hedgerows that we have at present. The big problem that we have in Ireland is a communication problem. It is not really a difficulty between farmers and legislators regarding hedgerows. What we need to do is to educate everybody - the public, the farmers and the legislators - as to the benefits of hedgerows, as outlined by Ms Clerkin. If we can do that, then there will not be any difficulty with farmers. It is a win-win situation for them and for the legislators. Nobody will be in opposition to it. In no part of our presentation today, we stated that we want to be a negative force in respect of farmers or legislators. Everybody is a gainer. As far as the EU is concerned, it is going to be delighted. It will go for this option. It amazes us that we are missing this opportunity and that it has been left out of the CAP.

I thank the witnesses for attending and making their presentation. The first thing that must be recognised is that in the 1980s, the same EU that the witnesses have spoken of, in respect of what it is looking for now, paid farmers around this country to knock every ditch and hedge down. Farmers basically had to get bulldozers and drive them into a corner. It is the same EU that is looking for farmers to do a full 3600 circle. In fairness, in most parts of the country, farmers are interested in having hedges; there is no point in saying they are not. Mr. Hickey spoke earlier about the different problems around the world.

It should be recognised that places such as Brazil are cutting an area the size of a football field every day from the lungs of the world. Mr. Hickey talked about the new CAP. My understanding is that, to qualify for the CAP payment, 4% of land has to be used for biodiversity. Some 4% of a farmer's land can either be idle or in hedges or such.

Mr. Michael Hickey

I do not think it would necessarily be hedges.

I am not saying it has to be hedges, but 4% has to be idle for biodiversity. Is that a good thing? Does Mr. Hickey welcome that?

Mr. Michael Hickey

Absolutely. It will all contribute.

The witnesses talked about gapping in hedgerows. What is the solution to gapping?

Ms Shirley Clerkin

One can in-plant with more hawthorn at the right time of year. Hawthorn grows very quickly.

Can I put something to Ms Clerkin, as somebody who comes from a place where there is a lot of blackthorn? The old generation has a saying, which Ms Clerkin might never have heard and is not meant in any wrong way, which is called breasting the hedge. Is that a solution to gapping?

Ms Shirley Clerkin

Yes, but if there are gaps already, we have to do something with them. Mr. Sheehan recommends pressing the hedge down in the BRIDE Project. That is done when a hedge has lighter growth. The gaps in many of the hedges in Monaghan are quite wide and they need in-filling before that can be started. Everything has become woody and old.

We have noticed that breasting a hedge, which can be done with a machine, by putting a scraw on the end of it, as it was done traditionally in rural Ireland, thickens the whole hedge and takes the daylight areas out of that. Regarding the statistics about Monaghan compared with statistics around the country, was it a section of Monaghan or was every part of Monaghan looked at?

Ms Shirley Clerkin

We took every part of Monaghan.

Was every hedge in Monaghan looked at?

Ms Shirley Clerkin

No. I will explain the methodology. It is an accepted methodology, which was used by Woodlands of Ireland and the Heritage Council back in 2012. Twenty-one counties or parts of counties have used this methodology. We used it in 2010 and again in 2021. There are 12.5 10 km-wide squares in Monaghan, if the Deputy can visualise those in a grid. We have taken the bottom left 1 km square out of each of those 12 to do this survey. That is the same survey used for badgers and for countryside birds.

Am I correct in saying that 10 sq. km have been used in total out of the county?

Ms Shirley Clerkin

Some 12 sq. km in total. That is the accepted methodology.

When Ms Clerkin says that a certain amount has been lost, has she also looked at or contacted the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to discover, through GLAS and the other schemes which involved people sowing trees, to add up what was added to compensate for what might be lost?

Ms Shirley Clerkin

No. The survey does not cover that. It looks at the hedges. In each square kilometre, it would note if new hedgerows were planted, for example. It would look at all the hedgerows in those squares, including anything new that had been planted in the meantime. There were no additions in any of those squares.

I would be surprised if there were no additions with some of the environmental schemes going back to 2010 or, even before that, with the rural environment protection scheme, REPS. Ms Clerkin will be familiar with the land too. There was a substantial amount of sowing under the schemes, including in Monaghan or any other county, especially those counties in the west or where there are many farmers. Do the witnesses have any figures from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine about sowing in Monaghan?

Ms Shirley Clerkin

This survey purely uses the hedgerow appraisal system methodology. I might come back to the Deputy in a minute.

Ms O'Sullivan talked about the LiDAR system and statistics. What was the area of hedgerows counted when using the LiDAR system?

Ms Lilian O'Sullivan

In 2011, it was based on the national 2005 to 2008 aerial photograph database.

Did it cover sections of 40 m, 20 m or 15 m? It gets more accurate.

Ms Lilian O'Sullivan

It gets more accurate as you get closer. That work with LiDAR was a regional survey in County Cork.

Ms O'Sullivan is talking about the number of trees or hedgerows. For accuracy, one needs to know the area for each photograph. Devenish was at our committee. I understand that a new LiDAR system was announced by the Department. The OPW is conducting a LiDAR survey next year. It warned us to make sure that it was down to 10 sq. m or 14 sq. m, off the top of my head, because it will not be accurate above that. Does Ms O'Sullivan know what level the ones she is talking about were at?

Ms Lilian O'Sullivan

I do not know off the top of my head. Teagasc would have completed that LiDAR survey work that was done with Devenish. In the work that I am involved in now, the Deputy is right that one needs to know exactly what area is being captured. At the sites, we would have five zones marked out in 6 m lengths. They have been captured remotely, so it captures everything. One can fly a drone immediately over it and it captures exactly what is in that zone. For us to be able to translate that to a carbon measurement, it captures the volume using the remote technology. We are now translating that biomass to a carbon stock by dry-weighing it, grinding it down and sampling it in the different pools used in the inventories for the accounting. There is our above-ground biomass or living biomass above and below ground, the soil underneath and the root system.

I will ask a few questions together as I want to let other members in. The witnesses talked about the importance of cattle not going where the roots of the trees are, especially around ditches. The clay in ditches will move down in soft weather and expose the root of a whitethorn. Would the witnesses recommend that the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine help farmers fence on both sides with a grant or such to protect both sides? It is important to talk to farmers, not at them or down to them. We need to respect that we are dealing with their ground and give them the required respect. There are farmers who want to get the whitethorn hedges, to save on fencing in many cases, if it functions properly. The witnesses talked about lining fences with them. We have to think of roads and road safety too, as Senator Paul Daly said. The sides have to be trimmed or a hedgerow will come out into the middle of the road. What is the witnesses' view on handling that land?

The contractor going along has mirrors and the worst thing that could happen is a bramble catching one of them. Everyone wants to have these. Farmers will buy into this and into the eco-scheme in the line of sowing more hedgerows. We need to work with them to make it workable and ensure it is not affecting or hammering them. What are the witnesses' views on the maintenance side of it?

Mr. Michael Hickey

I have been farming in Tipperary for the past 40 years. I have hedgerows that are 50, 60 or 70 years of age. I fence along outside my ditch and have no trouble with encroaching trees and so forth. I side trim and when a tree gets to a certain height, it branches across. There is no problem for machinery passing underneath or anything like that. That is the kind of situation I would envisage for a scheme-----

Are they whitethorns?

Mr. Michael Hickey

-----whereby farmers would be helped to fence. We have that in place already for waterways and so forth. It would be feasible to do that and does not require a lot of maintenance once it is done properly the first time. Electric fences are good in that way. As far as roads are concerned, there is no problem. All of us have to follow the law in terms of encroaching and overhanging trees. From our point of view, there is no problem with roadways and so forth.

For farmers under the new eco-scheme, what would the witnesses recommend in the line of hedgerows to be sown? Would they put in laurels or whitethorn? What would they put in that would be fairly sound maintenance-wise?

Mr. Michael Hickey

The basis of any good hedge is a good blackthorn. Whitethorn, blackthorn, hazel and a bit of everything you would have. Unfortunately, ash is now a huge problem in Ireland. In Monaghan it makes up something like 75% of the trees of any kind of size. Alder now has a disease and these are symptoms of the problems we face in the environment now. People are beginning to recognise this.

They are symptoms of importing other trees.

Mr. Michael Hickey

Absolutely, but the diseases are in place when the system is not healthy, in the same way human beings will suffer from diseases if their immune systems in their ecosystems are poor.

I welcome our guests. It is wonderful to have four of them in the committee room and fantastic to be back to having witnesses in the committee room. I also welcome Mr. Sheehan, who is joining us online. Mr. Sheehan and I met in the climate committee five or six months ago and our session then was very interesting. I am not coming at this from a farming background and would not pretend to know as much as my colleagues on farming. However, I sit on the climate committee and we spend a lot of time tearing our hair out trying to figure out how to reduce emissions, sequester and offset carbon and so on. Nobody in Ireland has the answer yet but enhancing and promoting new or existing hedgerows looks like a win-win. That may be simplistic and I defer to others' expertise. I would like to hear more. I apologise because I missed the start of the meeting and some of this may have been covered but will the witnesses take me back over the climate potential of hedgerows? Dr. Moore mentioned the quality of the existing hedgerows and their importance. There is a different conversation about new hedgerows. He might elaborate on those two sides to it. I would like to hear from Mr. Hickey and Mr. Sheehan, who are active farmers, on how beneficial hedgerows are in day-to-day farming. It is important the committee hears that.

Mention has been made of an inventory of the hedgerows. An awful lot of our hedgerows would be bounds ditches between landowners. For claiming benefits, how would that work? Would there be a double claim?

Dr. Alan Moore

On the last question, I will turn to Mr. Hickey and Mr. Sheehan as practising farmers. On Deputy Leddin's question, the benefits of hedgerows have been well described in the meeting so far and there seems to be unanimity of agreement that hedgerows provide a huge range of services. We feel among friends and there is no dispute about the value of hedges.

On the value of old versus new, there has been discussion about the 20 to 50 years it takes for a new hedge to achieve the benefits of an old hedge. The question was asked about the new hedges under cross-compliance and where they are. It is a good question. There has not been the follow-up or oversight of where those new hedges are and what is in them. The multispecies issue is a big one. There is no dispute among any of the experts that existing hedgerows are better. We have a huge network. They are being destroyed, unfortunately, at an alarming rate. We have this asset but it is disappearing. The EIA regulations are not fit for purpose and I do not think even the Department believes they are. That and the lack of legal protection are two issues on which we would love to get the committee's support and knock heads together to see how we could prevent further destruction.

I am thinking of the climate challenge and I think I read in one of the briefing papers that we can say our hedgerows sequester something like half a megatonne. That is significant in terms of the reductions we are trying to get.

Ms Lilian O'Sullivan

At a national scale, it is potentially up to one megatonne. It is significant.

Is that potential based on new hedgerows or rehabilitating existing hedgerows?

Ms Lilian O'Sullivan

Getting back to the old versus new question, new hedgerows sequester more but as a stock are much smaller until they get to maturity. The rate of sequestration declines. However, if we are looking at hedgerows' potential as a carbon stock and whether that changes over time, ecosystems that accumulate more carbon than they lose can become sinks. Effectively, they have sink potential. Sequestration accumulates over time and reaches an equilibrium but I think we have covered that it is about multiple benefits. It is not only sequestration.

We have an ambitious target for 2030, which is not that far away. There is huge value and potential in hedgerows but we are trying to get to net zero by 2050, so there is a 30-year challenge. It seems that however difficult the 2030 challenge might be with growing new hedgerows, sequestration and so on, we should be taking the 30-year potential very seriously.

Ms Shirley Clerkin

I think the Deputy is right. Is he referring to new hedgerows?

Ms Shirley Clerkin

There is huge potential throughout the country to improve connectivity of loads of habitats and to think about hedgerows for their value in flood buffering, nutrient absorption, biodiversity, connecting up areas of native woodland and creating a much more resilient landscape, which we will need for climate change. The landscape will need to be more resilient and be able to withstand intense rainfall events, drought, fire and other events. Hedgerows are very important for all of these reasons. It is definitely something that would add to our response.

That is good to hear. We may bring Hedgerows Ireland before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action at some point to speak further about it. Others may speak on how hedgerows enhance practices on the farm. What we are trying to solve here in many ways is a real challenge for farmers throughout the country. We know many of them are struggling. We think there is an obvious way to provide value to farmers through existing hedgerows and potential new hedgerows. The CAP strategic plan has been mentioned. I do not think the door on that has closed. If we make enough noise about it, we can provide further value to farmers. There is money in Europe and we should really be putting up our hands for it. It seems that farmers can benefit to a far greater degree than they have in the past from various eco-schemes in the two pillars. The witnesses might address this if they can shed further light on it, if they want to come back on their experiences on their own farms.

I will bring Deputy Collins back in because I cut him off. If we have time, we will go back to the witnesses. We are running over time. I called Deputy Collins in his absence and I see he is back.

I thank the Chair. I was in the Dáil. I heard the Chair was keeping a good eye on me. I will not repeat many of the questions that have already been raised.

This is an interesting subject. In rural Ireland many farmers are very protective of the hedgerows and have been over the years. The problem is there are hedgerows in the farm but there are also hedgerows on the side of the road. How do the witnesses feel about the hedgerows and verges that are not cut? I completely understand there are certain times of the year that trimming should not take place. There are situations in rural Ireland and in rural communities whereby in the middle of summer hedgerows grow out onto the middle of the road causing accidents. People with bicycles are hurt. There should be a separation between one and the other. It is a very important issue. It may have been brought up when I was speaking in the Dáil.

The issue of burning was raised earlier. I am totally opposed to out-of-control burning but there is also controlled burning and we should be very supportive of this. The IFA and the Irish Cattle and Sheep Farmers Association came together with the Garda to train farmers on controlled burning. We should encourage this in specific areas where it is needed at specific times. Sometimes we cannot burn in season because the season is damp and wet. This puts farmers in a very difficult position.

As previous speakers have said, I hope the witnesses can work with farmers on their plans. The problem farmers have at present is with dictation. This country is turning a lot like this. Farmers are being dictated to. They have more serious worries about further regulations coming before them. Much of what the witnesses have said is great. I have no objection to it with regard to protecting hedgerows and on my farm we do the same. Protection of the hedgerows is very important. In this country we depend on progressive farmers and I hope they will be protected, brought along and not dictated to as such. Grant aid is a great way to encourage farmers. I hope no policy will dictate too hard to farmers because it would put a whole different light on all of this.

I would like the witnesses to comment on road verges where hedgerows are growing. I did not say it at the beginning but I welcome all of the witnesses.

Mr. Michael Hickey

I thank the Deputy. We have already covered the roadways. There is no problem. Local authorities already have rules on boundary hedges along roadways. It is the responsibility of the farmer from the point of view of local authorities. Farmers make sure hedgerows do not encroach on roads and are not a danger to motorists. As far as farmers in general are concerned, there is no discrepancy between what we are asking for and what farmers are doing with regard to hedgerows. We see a win-win situation whereby we can help farmers to appreciate their hedges even more than they do at present. We see an incentivised scheme whereby farmers could avail of funds to retain their hedgerows and improve them so there would be no difficulty in that sphere.

Dr. Alan Moore

I thank Deputy Collins. I will pick up on the point he made about progressive farming. What the discussion this evening has shown is that it is now understood that what was previously good farming in terms of taking out the hedgerows is now seen as questionable and not good practice. As the Deputy has heard this evening, we are very much farmer led. Our group has high farmer representation. We strongly believe the retention of good quality hedgerows represents good, progressive farming.

We have gone significantly over time. We have to be fair to the next set of witnesses. This has been a very good session and very informative. From my point of view as a farmer, what farmers want is to get full credit and recognition for the hedgerows they have. If there is a parameter for measuring and rewarding farmers for them, we will see that farmers will buy into this policy of hedgerows. As Senator Paul Daly said, we have a completely different landscape from continental Europe. It is annoying farmers that they are not getting recognition for the hedgerows on their farms and the sequestration of carbon. Anything that can be done on this front will be mutually beneficial for farming and the environment. Farmers are custodians and they want to look after their farms and the environment. We have a way to go to get recognition for farmers of what hedgerows are doing for the environment. On behalf of the committee, I thank the witnesses for their presentation.

Sitting suspended at 7.18 p.m. and resumed at 7.22 p.m.
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