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Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine debate -
Wednesday, 22 Jun 2022

Ash Dieback and its Impact on the Private Forestry Sector: Discussion

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The committee will now hear from Mr. Simon White, Chairman, and Mr. John O'Connell, Vice Chairman, of Limerick and Tipperary Woodland Owners, LTWO, Ltd. I call the witnesses to make their opening statement.

Mr. Simon White

I thank the Chairman. I submitted my opening statement beforehand. I was not quite aware that people would not be here so I have got to be very careful about what I say. I quite respect that. I will not be overcritical and will be as fair as I can to everybody.

I thank the committee for its invitation to present an update on ash dieback. Mr. O'Connell and I have appeared before the committee previously. I will briefly outline the history of how we got to where we are today. I will then update the committee on our perspective on what has happened recently. Last year, we attempted to explain what we felt needed to happen and how we felt the committee could assist in achieving something that will make a real difference to a very sorry situation.

Turning to the history of this matter, we presented to the committee regarding problems growers were facing with ash dieback disease and detailed the appropriate measures needed to deal with the problem, which had not been forthcoming at that point, in October 2020. In November 2020, the committee asked the Minister of State with responsibility for forestry, Senator Pippa Hackett, and her officials from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine's forestry service to appear before it to answer questions on what was being done to deal with the problems in the forestry sector, which was in deep crisis, as members know.

We are not interested in apportioning blame for how the disease infected this island. We are primarily interested in getting a fair resolution to the problems this disease has caused for those who were encouraged by State authorities to plant ash trees. These people had a legitimate expectation of a very profitable return according to the official promotional material. However, when the Minister of State was asked how the disease came to be in Ireland, she gave a detailed account of how it was imported on plants infected by the disease. These plants were imported through nurseries by forestry companies and planted in plantations. The disease was first detected in 2012 by the Forest Service Inspectorate in the new plantations in which these infected plants had been planted. The Minister of State volunteered information, presumably supplied by her departmental officials, that there was no fault over this on the part of the departmental phytosanitary security system because, under EU regulations, it was not possible for the Irish authorities to prevent the free movement of plants across EU member states' borders.

The Minister of State presented this explanation to the committee as the reason the Department is blameless as regards anything to do with the importation of the disease. The problem with this explanation is that it is not the whole truth. The first action taken by the then Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine when the disease was first detected in Ireland was to introduce, by way of statutory instrument, a ban on the importation of all ash plants. This clearly demonstrates that the Department did have the power to prevent this disease being imported. Did the Department fail to take appropriate action when it was needed? During the period leading up to this, everyone in forestry in the EU was well aware of the risk this disease posed to our native ash growing in Ireland. Why did the Department, knowing the threat to trees in Ireland, fail to carry out due diligence? Surely, it should have advised the Minister to impose measures to prevent the disease being imported. It is relevant that the phytosanitary security plant import system prior to this was changed and relaxed. This was against expert tree health advice that certification introduced needed to be coupled with a quarantine period. The change to the plant certification system, without this extra safety measure, rendered importing plants to pose a significantly greater disease risk.

As mentioned, we are not here to apportion blame. We are here to get a fair resolution to the problem. for this to happen, however, it would be helpful if the pretence that everyone was powerless to prevent this catastrophe happening was dropped. The Minister of State and her officials made it clear that they had no intention of changing the reconstitution and underplanting scheme, RUS, introduced in June 2020, which replaced the previous scheme that had failed to help the situation. Again, this scheme was designed to control the spread of the disease and allow for the identification of possible disease-resistant trees. However, there are problems with both these aims. It is not possible to control the spread of ash dieback. It is unfair and unreasonable for the State to expect growers who have lost so much to manage a dying crop of trees in the hope of finding the odd immune tree for State experimentation without paying them to do so.

During our presentation in October 2020, we explained how the RUS was not fit for purpose. We outlined the specific measures omitted from that scheme that were essential to deal with the ash dieback problem effectively. Full credit to the committee - and the Chairman - because it published its considered report on this in March 2021. It supported our call for the changes needed to the scheme that we explained were necessary. Vital elements that needed to be included in a reform approach were and still are: sufficient financial assistance to clear the affected trees; in the absence of the ability to plant a similarly commercial species of broadleaf to ash, to assist in identifying suitable replacement trees and, where that is not possible, to assist in returning the land to other forms of commercial agriculture production; suitable income supplementation in the form of premiums to provide an income off that land is needed; and the substantial losses that older plantation owners are facing needs to be compensated for.

I will now provide an update. The focus of the forestry service since the Minister of State, Senator Hackett, presented before the committee in November 2020 has been on the forestry policy group and Project Woodland. The latter came about following a recommendation by a consultant, Ms Jo O'Hara, engaged to review the James Mackinnon report. It is significant that the subject of ash dieback was excluded from her brief, as it had been excluded from discussions on Project Woodland. At this point, I will ask why the officials in charge of forestry in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine are now asking that the forestry service be called the department of forestry within the Department. This rather reminds one of how the power was claimed in George Orwell's Animal Farm.

Is the service element in the duties of departmental officials to forestry defunct? Is the focus now on regulation and policing regulations only? LTWO representatives have had a number of meetings with the Minister of State, Senator Hackett, in the past 18 months. She made various promises to take another look at the situation but, apart from a couple of very minor cosmetic changes to the RUS, there has been no attempt to address the horrendous mess ash growers face. We met the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, a year ago. He listened but was not inclined to get involved, apart from preferring to leave all decisions on this matter to his junior Minister. This is of concern because, ultimately, the responsibility rests with him. The upshot of the authorities of the State not taking appropriate action has resulted in two planting seasons being lost to those affected. On top of the losses caused by valuable trees dying, it costs ash dieback-affected plantation owners to partake in the RUS.

If the plantation is small and young the cost may be weighed up by plantation owners against having to live with this destruction and a belief that they are powerless to gain anything better. The reality is that they will have to invest to start again with no compensation and no income from their plantation land for the foreseeable future. Remember any broadleaf trees planted now will take 70 years to grow so that is two generations before there is a return.

There are some plantation owners who have decided to apply for the RUS in order to be paid their premiums that have been halted. So there is a distinct element of coercion involved in promoting the RUS. Forestry companies are all in favour of promoting the scheme because they are the only ones guaranteed to make money from the scheme. Landowners who signed up to the RUS expect that they will never be treated equitably. Larger plantation owners, who are the most affected group, are in an age group where their energy to fight for their rights is compromised. There are very few of them for whom signing up to the RUS makes any sense. We are here to fight for them, their children and their grandchildren. These people now feel as if the forest service has its name on their title deeds. They wonder if there will be anything in their holdings for their grandchildren as they observe how they have been treated.

Once the time of year comes when leaves fall from the trees there is about a five-month period over the winter where the progression of the disease across the country is hard to identify. Apart from the odd wind that snaps dead trees and branches the general public could be forgiven for thinking that affected trees are just winter dormant. Come mid-May, like this year, it has shocked people to clearly see that ash trees are dying from ash dieback at an incredible rate. With this comes a lot of other problems related to the dangers involved in falling trees that are being ignored.

Never in the history of the State would it appear that farmers who have incurred such significant losses caused by a disease have been given no income support and no compensation for such loss. After ten years and more of inadequate action by the authorities in charge it is no wonder that the people affected are turning really angry. They are now investigating all legal routes to gain redress for what they have suffered. This type of action should be completely unnecessary if what this committee recommended 15 months ago had been implemented but it is not. Frustration mounts and the relationship between landowners and the Department over forestry and woodland in the private sector is getting to a point where the relationship will not be possible to salvage. It is a sorry fact that the forest service has compounded the loss and suffering caused by ash dieback by delays in issuing licences, which has prevented people from harvesting ash trees for hardwood manufacture. Those who had healthy trees and could have harvested them have watched helplessly as their trees went from having a significantly high value to being virtually worthless.

Why are we here and what are we asking for? We want the Government to pressurise the Department to address this problem in a genuinely fair and efficient manner. The sectors in the Civil Service with responsibility to sort each of the issues involved need to be questioned as to why they have not taken appropriate action. Pressure needs to be applied to make the necessary funding available so the Government must come up with resources.

The RUS is a failed and badly designed initiative. It needs to be replaced by a scheme that assists people rather than costs them. The most important element in any scheme that will have a beneficial effect is to provide an income from the land for the future. To set aside the resources needed to do so it is vital to gather facts as to how many landowners are affected, how much land is affected and what amount of planted land affected is at each different stage of growth, etc. This information should be at hand in the Department. I am afraid that we, as a group, cannot access the information because it has been deemed information that we are not allowed to access under data protection legislation. Teagasc is an advisory service and it must be tasked with finding alternative ways to make similar land income promised in growing ash. Good decision-making depends on decision-makers having decent and factual information but no meaningful effort has been put into gathering this information, which is unbelievable.

We would like the Chairman of this committee to invite the forestry representation in Teagasc to attend to outline what Teagasc has done to investigate the way forward for people who have lost every potential benefit they legitimately expected from growing ash and what Teagasc proposes to do. I am not talking about research into propagating ash trees that might be immune to ash dieback. That is a long-term project that has merit but it will be of little or no use to people who face this immediate crisis now. Teagasc needs to carry out vital research into the best ways forward for private forestry. It is shocking to be told by the director of Teagasc, whom we met very recently, that his organisation has not been requested to conduct research into ash alternatives or costings.

Privately-owned forestry in Ireland has now reached a stalemate situation. The way private landowners have been treated has turned them away from the idea of planting trees. Given the climate change situation and our national commitment, it is incredible that the decisions made by the forestry service, and Ministers, with responsibility for the growing of trees are killing off private tree growing in this country. While this is never going to be stated policy, it is the logical outcome of everything that is being promoted.

We need the support of committee members to reintroduce a level of logic and reason into decision-making on what the national policy should be for national tree growing. Every week we read the latest harebrained proposals, which makes one wonder if the proposer lives on the same planet as us let alone is in charge of national policy. We plead with members not to sit back and wait for what the committee recommended to happen. It will not happen of its own accord. The committee needs to exert significant pressure. I urge members to please keep questioning what is being done and continue to apply pressure in order to get meaningful answers. Do not be fobbed off. We can feed the members many searching questions, the answer to which will be very informative. Please join our call for action now to sort people out who have dead trees and trees dying from ash dieback. Think about the mental health effects on elderly people and young people who feel utterly rejected by the State on this matter.

Apologies for the rushed presentation but time is short. We hope to make up for this in answering questions.

I thank Mr. White. As he has acknowledged in his statement, this committee has fully recognised the issues of ask dieback, and I have had a lot of engagement with the LTWO and other growers. I am personally very disappointed that we, as a committee, have not made more progress in this area. I can assure the witnesses that we will not let go of this issue as testified to by that fact that we have the LTWO delegation before us again today.

Growers have lost as much as 25 years' worth of growth. Many people grew ash and usually it is grown on better land. Many people used to think that the revenue generated from growing ash would be their pension pot but now that has disappeared. The idea of replanting ash and waiting 70 or 80 years for another income to be generated means there will be no return from the land for three generations. Unequivocally, the growers are not at fault and are completely innocent. We, as a committee, must do as much as we possibly can to get a legitimate and reasonable solution for the growers. This committee issued a report a number of months ago and made recommendations. We intend to keep applying pressure on the Minister to implement our recommendations.

I thank the witnesses for attending and concur with everything that the Chairman has said.

When the Department appeared before us, it told us that the ash dieback scheme was up and running. How many farmers have been sorted to date?

Mr. Simon White

Last night, we were told that the latest figure was something like 64.

How many are there?

Mr. Simon White

How many ash dieback-----

---farmers are there?

Mr. Simon White

They are in their thousands but we do not have the numbers. Again, we cannot get that number. We would be grateful-----

I think the committee will be able to get that figure.

Mr. Simon White

We would be very grateful if the committee would do that.

We might make a note of that - that the committee would get the question answered as to how many individual farmers are involved. My understanding is that planning permission was required for over a certain number of hectares in respect of taking them out. Is LTWO aware that there is supposed to be some sort of legislation to resolve that issue? Is that correct?

Mr. Simon White

As far as we can see, it has been passed back to the county councils but there are no indications that the county councils will back down on it. It is only if you change species, for example, if you are changing tree type. If you want to plan conifers, you have to go to the county council.

What is the planting for? My understanding is that the planting was for taking out. I would imagine that you would obviously be getting a licence from the Department if you were changing species.

Mr. Simon White

I did not understand that you needed planning permission to take them out.

My understanding is that you did. A farmer from Mayo rang me about it and I understood that this is what they were looking for when it came to taking them out. I will be honest with Mr. White. I do not know whether there was some legislation or exemption under a certain threshold that would eliminate that. Perhaps the Chairman knows.

Mr. Simon White

There was, of 10 ha-----

Mr. Simon White

The problem with that is that we have many people with more than 10 ha. We have one person with two sets of 10 ha. This person has already taken one out and has now been told that they are not exempt because they are going for the second set of 10 ha. That first set of 10 ha was taken in the first scheme when it was much younger. This person wants to take out the second one but is being told that they are now going into a second area. All the complicated arrangements are a massive problem. What we need is simplification. It is being made incredibly complicated and ordinary people are being put to the pin of their collar to deal with all these regulations. If you have broadleaf trees, what risk is there to the environment of doing any management with them? They are on good, free-draining ground. Far more damage could be done by harvesting a field of maize in October than anything that would be done here and yet if you are within 15 km of a special area of conservation, SAC, or something, you have to go to all the expense and time to get those environmental impact assessments done, which, again, stalls the whole thing. People are stuck without being able to deal with the issue, which is very unfair.

I think the 15-km rule is because we have brought in the habitats directive. The EU legislation is destroying Ireland.

Mr. Simon White

Hold on Deputy, Why are other EU states not imposing this? It is the same legislation.

I do not want to go down this road too much but I have looked at Germany and other places where a snail held up a fairly big factory so that is what Europe is doing to us but people do not seem to appreciate that. All I can say to Mr. White is that we will keep the pressure up. I suggest to the Chairman, and I presume the committee will back it, that we bring in representatives from the Department. We will try to get the overall figure for the witnesses. If they say that only 60 have been done out of thousands, it is a damning indictment of the Department when it comes to resolving the issue. All I can say is that with the consent of the Chairman and the committee, we will bring the Department to get to the nub of the issue. Representatives from the Department have been before us about 20 times already. I am sick of looking at them but we must persist.

Mr. Simon White

The one thing I would say is that for the people who have applied for the RUS, just because they have even been processed does not mean they will take it up. There are only a few people for whom RUS could even be the slightest option. They have to have small young plantations. There are people who are severely affected but there is no way they could go in.

They have to do something with them. They cannot keep looking at the trees there.

Mr. Simon White

What are we going to do? That is what we are asking-----

Mr. White is saying they will not pick it up. They have to do something because the trees are affected and will die.

Mr. Simon White

If I want to take it up, I have 20 acres - 8 ha - of my own. I have lost €100,000 worth of timber on my 23-year-old plantation. That is what it would be worth if I was harvesting it. To go into RUS, I would have to invest money. I would only be given €1,000 per hectare. This is €8,000 to take out my trees. This is not a fraction of the cost in today's climate. We all know the way fuel prices and the cost of machinery are going up. When it comes to taking those trees out, every day it gets more difficult. There are health and safety issues involved in dealing with this. I would have to invest something like €20,000 to €40,000 more just to get the trees out on land from which I will get no benefit until those trees come to fruition.

So what Mr. White is saying is the monetary compensation is a waste of time.

I must suspend the meeting as there is a vote in the Chamber.

I apologise that I missed part of the meeting. I am trying to balance three meetings. I concur with what has been said.

Does the Chairman want me to take the Chair?

Given that nearly all the members here are Deputies, I think we will have to suspend the meeting.

Is it the voting block? There will be a number of votes. There will be at least two.

Does the Chairman want to put me in there?

Deputy Fitzmaurice will take the Chair. I apologise for this vote but the witnesses can rest assured we will not let this die down.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice took the Chair.

I will revert to Senator Paul Daly.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their update. The one thing they have confirmed is that nothing has changed since the last time they were here and nothing has improved. We, the witnesses and the Department were aware at the time that RUS was just a sticking plaster. When the witnesses were here before, while we all saw the seriousness and importance of the issue for them, we were delved into the issue of licensing. I think ash dieback was just a tag-along at the time and perhaps we did not give it as much consideration as we did to trying to find a solution to the problem with licensing. For that reason, I am glad the witnesses are back before us for a stand-alone meeting. It is important that we take this specific issue further.

With that in mind, I seek some more information. Mr. White answered it to an extent in his response to Deputy Fitzmaurice's question. Basically what you get through RUS is €1,000 per hectare to remove the trees. Do you then get the scheme restarted? I mean, do you then get the forestry grant to replant for 20 years or are you disqualified for whatever number of years or portion of the forestry grant you already have received?

Mr. Simon White

It means that if you were in premium and had 15 years of premium, and you had been paid 12 premiums, you could claim three premiums. Most people over 20 years-----

They are not allowing you to go back to square one and to start again with a new-----

Mr. Simon White

There are no premiums. There is no income on that, which means that your land is virtually worthless. In fact, not only is it worthless, but if you wanted to sell it, nobody would buy it because they would have to invest to get rid of the trees and to plant again. It has to be compulsorily planted in trees, which means that nobody has any options. That is terribly unfair. That has not been challenged yet. That has never been challenged. The law is supposed to be equitable. That is quite blatantly inequitable. A judicial review is needed to see whether that is fair, especially under an exceptional circumstance such as a disease of this nature.

I will mention miscanthus as another example. The promotion of miscanthus in this country was a ghastly mistake. Why did it happen? It happened because due diligence was not done to work out that we needed to put an infrastructure in place so that we could burn miscanthus within a certain radius of where it was grown. It became completely uneconomic to grow it, to transport it and to burn it. Those people who have miscanthus have losses. It would be interesting to know what that costs the State and what it costs the farmers who grew it. There is nothing in the legislation to say that those people who grew miscanthus have to go back to produce alternative energy off the land that they got. They are not told to put down solar panels. They are not told to grow some other crop. They are told that they can go back to any production that they want off that land. Why is different for people with ash dieback? You cannot replace ash with ash. There is no other commercial broad-leaf crop. We went into this as a business. All of our members went into this as a business, not only for them but for the future generations. Those future generations have memories, too. They will see what was done to their parents. Their grandchildren will see it. We are looking at a whole thing into the future over the way this has been dealt with. People are very short-sighted if they do not see that.

We have been talking about the reconstitution and replanting scheme. Mr. White is saying that the €1,000 will not remove what is there and then you are on your own to replant.

Mr. Simon White

They will replant it.

They will replant it, but they will get no premium.

Mr. Simon White

Nobody has identified what you should replant it with. We need research to find that out. If you are going to go into the production of broadleafs - if, for example, you want to do maple flooring - you have to put the infrastructure in place. There will have to be factories that will make maple flooring in the end. We have no facilities in place. We are being asked to plant something but nobody knows what the end result will be. If I put my field back to grass, I know that I can cut it, I can feed animals and I can get a return on it. I can make silage. I can make hay. However, if I put it back into trees, I cannot get an income out of it and my children cannot get an income out of it.

You will not get any assistance to put it back into grass, as Mr. White has said.

Mr. Simon White

I just saying that it should be there.

As the scheme stands at the minute-----

You will basically get €1,000 per hectare to remove what is there. It will be replanted, you will get the balance of whatever premium you had not drawn, and then you are on your own.

Mr. Simon White

It can cost between €3,000 and €7,000 per hectare to remove it, in light of the health and safety issue involved. You cannot go into these bigger plantations safely and cut them down. You have to bring in very big machinery and you have to protect the people who are affected.

Is there not a monetary value to the stuff you are cutting?

Mr. Simon White

We had a Teagasc meeting last night as part of the knowledge transfer programme. The calorific value of trees that are affected by ash dieback was explained. The trees start to disintegrate. The calorific value of those trees, as they disintegrate, is not as good as normal firewood. There is also a problem with fungal infections. The plantations are dying and are then getting invested with fungus. Fungus is getting into the soil. Therefore, if you replant with other trees, those trees will pick up that infection and it will kill them. We are in a situation that if somebody replants, they do a contract with another company to replant, and those people get the payments. If, when the inspector comes to inspect the plants after five years, they are dying of the fungus, like honey fungus, they will not be signed off. The growers are then stuck with a double whammy. Not only will they owe the contractor or the company for planting the trees, but they will also have a compulsion to replant again. It does not make sense.

As a species, where is ash now? Is ash gone? I remember asking this when we had officials from the Department in here. They were talking about trying to modify a new breed of ash that would not be affected by ash dieback. I remember asking at the time when a native Irish becomes not a native Irish ash, if you create a new species. Can you get an ash sapling in a nursery at the minute?

Mr. John O'Connell

Ash is gone. Ash is dead. Some 5% of the trees may be resistant. However, it will take a long time to prove that and to get the seed to regenerate the ash from the seeds that may be resistant. That will take years. I reckon it will take generations. Ash is dead. In my plantation, I have 5 ha of ash. Last year, it looked okay. This year, my daughter was visiting at the weekend and we went through the plantation. My granddaughter was with us. My granddaughter said to me, "Granddad, what is wrong with the trees?". I said, "They are sick." She asked, "What is going to become of them?". I said, "They are going to die". She asked, "Is anybody doing anything about it?". I said, "I cannot even cut them." I cannot even rescue or salvage whatever may be there for hurley butts because I need a felling licence. If I apply for a felling licence, it could take one, two, three or five years. It is ridiculous that we cannot manage our own plantations without this imposed regulation that is not applied in Europe. You do not need that in Scandinavia; you just inform the forest service that you are thinning and they give you the go-ahead. The way in which we are being treated is ridiculous. My granddaughter asked, "Granddad, is anybody helping you?". I said, "Nobody cares". My daughter was planning to come home to live where we are living to develop the forest and to retain it. We are pioneers. We have been very badly treated. We are pioneers. We have promoted forestry. I planted 27 years ago. I have won numerous awards. What are my awards worth now? I won the RDS Farm Forestry Award on two occasions. I was used an example of best practice. I have had people visit from all over the world. I had 30 Swedish visitors six weeks ago. I said, "I am embarrassed to show you this ash". Again, they asked me, "What is being done about it? Is there any support from the Government?". It is a disease that we have not introduced into our plantations.

In multi-species plantations, is it affecting any trees other than ash?

Mr. John O'Connell

No, it does not affect any tree other than ash.

It is specifically ash.

Mr. John O'Connell

It is specifically ash, yes. It is specific to ash. Ash is the only commercial crop that is viable. For instance, there is a promotional document that I got before I planted. I did a lot of research into planting hardwood. I think it was in 1988 that there was information from forest service of the then Department of Energy that said, "Grow ash for profit", plus a cash crop of, they suggested, Christmas trees. They said, "it all adds up". We are left with nothing.

Anyone else would get a salary and, at the end of tenure, he or she would get a pension. We have nothing.

I was talking to a man sitting beside me at last night's meeting and he told me he has 20 acres he wants to plant. He said that on the basis of what has occurred over the past five years, he will not plant because forestry is in a mess. I had never met the man before in my life. Last week, I got a call from another a man who bought a farm from his aunt. He borrowed the money. He has 100 acres of ash and he is at his wits' end. He has the bank on his back. He was hoping to be able to repay or help to repay the loan from his hurley butts but his ash is gone. With another case in west Cork, a man committed suicide because of the state of his ash plantation. The mental health effect of all of this is horrific. People just do not know what to do, and we are not getting any help.

Has the group had meetings with the Department?

Mr. John O'Connell

We had a meeting with the Minister and the Minister of State.

Did it have meetings with the new director, Mr. Barry Delany?

Mr. John O'Connell

Is he a director at Teagasc?

He is the director at the forestry section in the Department.

Mr. Simon White

The problem is that ash dieback is effectively off the menu. With all the Project Woodland meetings involving our group, in co-operation with the Forest Owners Co-operative Society in Cork, we are the ones really taking the hit on ash dieback. Any mention of ash dieback is ruled out of order. Even Mr. James Mackinnon was not allowed to address ash dieback. He told us it was not in his brief. When Ms Jo O'Hara was looking the policy for forestry of the future, she was not allowed to look at ash dieback. It was off her brief. The Department officials basically do not discuss it. They will not meet us.

We should note that if people are not here to defend themselves, we must be careful about what we say about them.

Mr. Simon White

Forgive me if I offended anybody.

It is okay. I am just putting that on record. Are the witnesses aware of a new policy on forestry that is to be published at the end of this week or early next week? Did they have any involvement with that?

Mr. Simon White

Our groups on the different committees are waiting for it to come out, and it is possible that will be tomorrow. It is a judicial review or something. It is a legislative review of policy. We are here talking about ash dieback. I am aware of that but I am also aware that all the schemes to promote forestry in this country are coming to an end. In a year or so they are to go. They are all historical and been in place since the last century. We have had 22 years of an antiquated system that is completely out of date when we see the way EU regulations have moved. The incentives that were in place then have all been eroded, and it is why nobody is planting. It is not because they are not getting licences. Plenty of people have licences to plant but they will not do it. If people waited five years to get a licence or decided five years ago that a field would be put into forestry, they would have done something else by now or the time they would get the licence.

The licence is not the problem; the problem is the incentive. The licensing system has been in favour of Coillte, which made a very healthy profit last year in a time of crisis. Private forestry has meanwhile been ground out, with nobody supporting it. It seems as if the policy is to kill it off because we do not want private forestry in this country. That is mind-boggling when we think of climate change commitments we have made.

We have a policy in this country, according to everyone, of going from 11% forestry cover to 18% by 2030. That may now be pushed to 2050. Does anybody understand that this equates to 445,000 ha of land being planted with trees? Where is that land? Who owns that land? It is owned by private landowners and farmers. It is not owned by Coillte or the State. We must incentivise those people to plant. There is talk about a policy that involves planting 8,000 ha per year, but we are not even planting 2,000 ha. To achieve the stated goal, we would have to plant something like 20,000 ha per year. Are we doing anything like that? If we do not do it, what will it cost the State when we have to pay these fines for not doing what we said we would in our commitments in respect of climate change? Every day we read about policies to do a little thing here or there, but we must do massive things in the context of the planting of trees in this country.

The latest statement from the Minister of State is that "we cannot afford to lose any more high nature value farmland to trees". That is incredible. That statement demonstrates a lack of logic in decision-making and political direction. It is quite extraordinary. Trees are the only thing that can sequester carbon, apart from the seas. All the emphasis is on sequestering carbon in bogs and rewetting bogs, but does anybody understand that recolonising a bog with sphagnum moss, the organism to sequester carbon, takes years? Does anybody understand that the bogs we had took 6,000 to 11,000 years to grow? We have trees that would sequester 13 times as much carbon as a bog for every acre, but all the emphasis is on these crazy ideas. The answer is staring us in the face; it is about growing trees.

Young people want to grow trees and care for the environment. We need incentives to do that. The schemes are out of date. Who is doing research? That is why we want Teagasc brought in. We want to find out what research is being done to design schemes that are meaningful and that will encourage people to plant on land.

Mr. White is recommending that the committee bring in Teagasc to find out what is going on.

Mr. Simon White

Absolutely. I would really like to see that. Teagasc has an important role to play. As I said, good decision-making depends on good information being in front of the decision makers. That must be scientific and true information. It must be factual. We must get our research institute out there and in action, finding out where we are going to go with this. We must find out what species we will plant and the way we want to do it. We have seen the problems with monoculture and we need mixed forests. We are, for example, sitting on a time bomb with our conifers if this beetle comes in. We need to look at phytosanitary security and investigation into the ways to protect the trees we have. We are importing a huge amount of timber into the country, and this poses a major risk to our growing trees.

It is okay. I was nearly there anyway. Could I get some more information on the RUS? We might forget about its inadequacies for the moment. There was mention of 64 applicants but did they apply of their own free will? Has anybody drawn it down, irrespective of the fact that what could be drawn down is not going anywhere near compensating them for the project on hand? In other words, has the Department paid out any money on this at all? Are they all live applicants or paper applicants? At this stage, and irrespective of whether the fund is sufficient, has anybody even drawn down any money from the scheme?

Mr. Simon White

All I can say is that approximately 250 applicants have applied to the scheme.

Only something like 60 have been processed. However, out of those 60, only a handful have done it. We find it extraordinary that there is an event being promoted by Teagasc to promote the RUS in Kilkenny on 28 June. We protested to Teagasc saying that it cannot promote the scheme, it is not fair and it must give the full story. We have requested that we be invited to speak to show the other side as to what people should do. They were looking for plantations that had gone through the RUS. There is only a handful that have been done. One of them is this site. It is extraordinary to have an event on one option when there are thousands of sites in the country where people are scratching their heads and tearing their hair out as to what they will do. One of those sites would have been the place to do it, but that is my opinion. Hopefully, we will be allowed to speak at that event to provide balance.

There are a few people who have drawn down the money that the Department has-----

Mr. Simon White

There are a few, yes.

As Mr. White says, only-----

Mr. Simon White

They are very small sites. If one has only 1.5 acres or 2 acres, one's losses are very small. The losses of people with small acreages of ash or young ash are small. It is more like a hobby that they went into. I am talking about the people who went into this as a business. They have lost their shirt and they are being ignored.

Finally, what about sporadic ash, such as my own ash at home? I presume the sporadic ash tree in hedges and hedgerows is affected likewise.

Mr. Simon White

Mr. O'Connell may want to take that.

Mr. John O'Connell

Yes. That will be affected. Coming up today, I was watching trees. Some ash trees appeared to be perfectly healthy and the tree next door was dead. It is difficult to say how long it will take but, ultimately, the ash dieback will take over everything.

For roadside trees, this, ultimately, will be a serious hazard or danger.

Mr. John O'Connell

Yes.

Mr. Simon White

The Senator is going into a different area.

I appreciate that.

Mr. Simon White

I will say it is a legitimate area because these trees are going to die. All over this country, there are roadsides owned by farmers with these trees that are going to die. They are dying at the moment. One can see them dead. They are dangerous.

There is another problem there which is that, as they fall, they can kill people. If a farmer has trees along the road and if he or she knows they are dead or knows they are affected, it is the farmer's responsibility as a landowner to deal with them, but how does one deal with them? There are people being put to the pin of their collar because they have to deal with these trees. They can cut them down, but how is one to deal with traffic? I had a dangerous tree recently that I had to cut down and I arranged management on the road - I got permission from the Garda to do it. I did it, but I was up in a cherry-picker, the drivers ignored the orders of the people stopping them in high-vis jackets, etc., and they were driving underneath me lopping branches down. One cannot do that anymore. What we have to do is have very expensive traffic-management plans and get the Garda or companies in to do that. It will be a significant cost.

I have a lot of older established woodland. If I have somebody who comes shooting through my forest and if a branch falls on top of his or her head in a storm, I am liable. I cannot fell that tree unless I have got a licence. There is one loophole in that. It is that if one is within 30 metres of the road, one does not need a licence to cut a tree if one identifies that it is dangerous, but if it is on one's land, one cannot identify that and one has to get an authority, such as the local authority, to determine that the tree is dangerous. The Senator should try and get local authority people to come out and go through the forests and the land of this country to identify what trees are dangerous. They will not do it. However, if something happens, one is liable. How is one to get insurance for that because if it is determined that one knew the tree was dangerous, it is one's responsibility and they will not cover one with the insurance?

I am very disappointed.

Deputy Ring, you have frozen. We cannot hear you. Can you hear us? Does Deputy Cahill want to come in?

No, you are grand.

Deputy Ring, can you reset the screen or something? It is frozen at present. Is Deputy Martin Browne trying to come in? If we cannot get Deputy Ring in, is Deputy Martin Browne back? Deputy Browne has his hand up.

You are not driving that job right at all. Deputy Cahill never had any of those problems.

Is Deputy Ring or Deputy Martin Browne there? They were trying to come in.

Deputy Martin Browne is not back. That is his empty chair.

Does Deputy Cahill want to come in?

No. I made my points before I left.

Unfortunately, we lost contact with Deputy Ring. Everyone has made the points that they wanted to.

On behalf of the committee, I thank Mr. White and Mr. O'Connell for coming in. It has been interesting. The committee will have listened to what they have said and will continue looking into this matter. I can assure them of that. In fairness to the Chairman, Deputy Cahill, he spent a lot of time at it previously, as did all members of the committee. We are united in wanting to find solutions to it. Earlier, we concentrated on felling licences on the commercial side of it. We concentrated on planting, which is in trouble as well. The Limerick and Tipperary Woodland Owners were in previously. We will continue. We have listened to what they have said. The committee has also taken on board the need to find out the numbers involved.

Does Deputy Martin Browne want to come in there?

Yes, just to welcome the guests.

Deputy Jackie Cahill took the Chair.

At this stage, everything has probably been covered.

The question of getting information came up earlier. We know here in the committee how hard it is to get information. One cannot get a proper resolution when the Department will not even admit that it is partly to blame for ash dieback even coming into the country.

We met a person - I will not name him - during the year. On 26 June 2020, he put in an application for an RUS grant to remove the dying ash at the site he showed us. He is still waiting for that. It is completely wrong and crazy that the Department is dragging it out like that. He also raised the issue of the infected wood. If the matter was hurried, they could get some income from the firewood but the longer the tree is left in situ, the more brittle it becomes. The wood is no good, even to sell off as firewood.

Did Mr. White state earlier that no research is being done on alternatives to ash? As far as I am concerned, we were led to believe that a lot of research had been done on replacements for ash.

Did Mr. White say that earlier?

Mr. Simon White

Dr. Ian Short in Teagasc did quite a lot of research as regards looking at different species back in the early days but when the RUS was brought in, those alternatives were ruled out. There was only one method of dealing with it, which was clear-fell. The whole focus on alternatives was lost and that research needs to be done.

The main focus has been on producing an immune ash tree but when you look at it, it is only now, 40 years after Dutch elm disease, that they are beginning to develop. I am a research scientist so I know it takes an awfully long time to do this. To come up with an alternative to ash is not going to happen for many years to come. To deal with the situation at the moment, we must look at it logically. It is something that is causing people to look at this. Anybody involved in forestry is looking at how the pioneers have been treated as regards whether they will go into it themselves. It is massively important to deal with the issue if we want to be serious about going forward with forestry planting in this country.

In a week in which we have seen large amounts of money go towards compensating people in agriculture and those with mica and such, it is very hard on the members we represent. Remember, we are a small community in counties Limerick and Tipperary of people growing trees but we have been identified as the body that is the mouthpiece for people with ash dieback. People are contacting us from all over the country and pulling their hair out. I am sick and tired of the job because I have no answers for them. We have lobbied repeatedly on their behalf and we have nothing to say to them. It is awful to have to go back to them every time. They contact us weekly to ask what is happening and whether there has been any move on this. We have to say "No" and that we are lobbying and trying and doing everything. It is soul destroying to do this when one sees other sectors being looked after. If the price of fertiliser goes up, something is done for people. If the price of pigs goes down, there is something done for people. People with forestry are just left out in the dark. We are ignored. There is a huge amount of frustration. Mr. O'Connell talked earlier about mental health. People who are really up against it break under these circumstances. They invested heavily in this in terms of work, ethics and what they put into it and now they have nothing. Something has to be done but it must be done now. We cannot keep waiting. It must be done now. Members will know that on a farm, and I know it from being a dairy farmer at one time, that if you have a downer cow or a sick animal, you will put your all into dealing with that animal. There is nothing like the pall of a sick animal on the farm. Everybody is affected until that animal is either cured or otherwise taken away by the knackery. Then, there is some relief. People in forestry whose trees are dying are in that sort of situation, so please help them.

We understand some of the frustration with which Mr. White is dealing. It has come up and been raised repeatedly. The witnesses have also called for improvement in phytosanitary security by the forestry service if we are to prevent any other diseases coming in. What kind of feedback is Mr. White getting on that to ensure that we do not finish up with something else being brought in by the Department or by private companies? What protections are in place so that no other disease, insects or pests like this will come into the country down the road? Are there safeguards in place?

Mr. Simon White

As I already explained, that is another reason why we feel that Teagasc should be brought in to look into that. Phytosanitary security is actually relaxed compared to what it was. In the early 2000s, they relaxed it to bring in a certification system but it was recommended to have a quarantine time over that in order that people would identify risks when the trees were brought in, rather than planted out in the open country where they could do damage.

Regarding the inspectorate, with respect, I do not think the number of people who are involved in inspecting the timber in the quantities that are coming into our ports is enough to protect us. I do not know but I suspect it is not and, therefore, we are at a risk. That needs to be researched and looked into and a proper phytosanitary security system put in place because, for instance, if we identify different species that we can plant, where are they? They are not being grown in this country at the moment. If we are going to have to import them, do we want to import another disease? We must be very careful about what we do. We made the massive mistake in this country of importing ash. It was ridiculous when we should have been propagating those trees in this country from our own native ash. Then, we would not have this problem but this is what we did. We need to learn by our past mistakes and give our research institutes the resources to find out what needs to be done to have a healthy forestry woodland industry going forward.

Does Mr. White have confidence that this will take place going forward, whereby the safeguards will be there to protect us from the likes of that? The ash is destroyed at this stage for no other simple reason than people were not listening or people were not doing their job. Can the public feel safe that those kinds of measures will prevent anything else like that from happening again?

Mr. Simon White

The Deputy is asking me if I have confidence. At the moment, we cannot even get these people to discuss it, let alone have confidence in what they are doing. They will discuss it with schoolchildren. They will discuss it with everybody but the people who are growing the trees and who are going to do it. It is, therefore, very difficult to say that I have confidence. I have hope. I have desperate hope because I have great confidence in the people of Ireland and groups like this committee in our political institutions. We need political direction. We need strong leadership to move this forward. The knowledge is there; we just have to put the resources into doing it. Never have we needed it more in the history of the State than we do now, with climate change breathing down our necks. Trees have the ability to mitigate against the emissions from agriculture. We are an agricultural country. Everything we do has a cost environmentally but speaking as an environmental scientist, we have to find solutions to it. We have a solution in front of our faces in growing trees and yet those in charge of it cannot seem to see it.

Finally, from talking to other people in the forestry business, we hear that the forestry service never actually provides an update regarding the status of any application. Some people told us that they have been battling with a slow response from the forest service through one application or another for the last four years. They say that the forestry service never provides them with an update regarding the status of any application. Our forestry service fails at every juncture to honour its obligation to provide licensing within the established four-month deadline, be it completion works or any approval that is forthcoming from the forestry service that is strictly time-bound.

All we have heard at previous committee meetings and again today is about an industry that is going to face serious problems down the road. We are all being told, even with planting now when we are talking about 20 or 25 years down the road, that if we do not get confidence back in the sector as we go forward year by year, we will have some massive problems.

I thank the witnesses for answering the questions. I imagine everybody else said it already but we will continue to question the Department and try to get changes, which we all admit at this stage needs to be done.

Let us see if we can hear Deputy Ring this time.

I am sorry about that. The telephone and Internet has been cutting out all day, whatever is wrong here in the Oireachtas.

I will be very brief. From listening to Mr. White, I can hear the frustration he is going through. We produced a report and were told certain things were going to happen.

Nothing has happened, and this is not good enough. As the speaker said, it is time for elected representatives in the Oireachtas to bring the officials and the Minister of State before the committee. She has a responsibility as well, and not to come in to say one thing to the committee with nothing else happening down the line. There is a serious problem in the forestry sector. We identified that. I compliment you, Chairman, because you identified this very early. We have had a number of meetings. We have brought officials and assistant secretaries before the committee, so it is time the Minister of State, the Secretary General and assistant secretary were brought before the committee to see what is going to be done about an industry that is on its knees because the Department is not doing its job.

The time has come for them to do their job. We have them dictating to us about climate change. The only thing they are any good at is imposing carbon tax and imposing tax on fuel and on people's energy and everything else. However, when it comes to them doing whatever they have to do, they are not able to do it. If they are not able to do it in the forestry section in the Department, close it down, put it out to the private sector and let the private sector deal with it. What is happening is not good enough. I have listened to people in my constituency. They are frustrated, annoyed and angry at what is happening. It is time to bring the Minister of State and the Secretary General before the committee to see what is happening in that Department.

There was no question there. Deputy Ring was making a clear statement and I thank him for that.

I thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee today. Clearly, there is no doubt about the support of the committee for trying to get some type of equitable solution for ash dieback. We will continue to press the case. We will continue to question and keep pressure on the Minister of State to get a solution in place that brings some type of financial fairness to the situation in which you find yourselves. I give a full commitment on behalf of the committee that we will keep the pressure on the Department to try to get a fair and reasonable solution for you. I am on record as saying previously that I never encountered a disease at farm level that was outside a farmer's control for which there was no compensation. You are in a unique situation and you have highlighted your case extremely well. As the Oireachtas committee with responsibility for this area, we will keep pressure on both the Minister of State and the Department to try to advance your cause. I thank you again.

At the next public meeting of the committee, on Wednesday, 29 June 2022, we will undertake pre-legislative scrutiny of the agricultural and food supply chain Bill 2022. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy McConalogue, will be in attendance.

As there is no further business, the meeting is adjourned.

The joint committee adjourned at 8.23 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 29 June 2022.
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