Skip to main content
Normal View

Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine debate -
Wednesday, 29 May 2024

Compliance with the Nitrates Directive and Implications for Ireland: Discussion (Resumed)

Witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege with respect to the evidence given to a committee. This means that witnesses have a full defence in any defamation action of anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse comment should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who give evidence from locations outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to publication by you outside, of the proceedings held by the committee, of any matters arising from the proceedings.

The purpose of this session is for the committee to undertake a resumed examination of compliance with the nitrates directive and the implications for Ireland. As you may know, gentlemen, as a committee, we have had a series of meetings on the nitrates directive. We intend to put together a report that will be sent to Brussels. I think everyone will agree that we cannot leave any stone unturned regarding our 220 kg derogation limit. I do not think it is an exaggeration to say that our dairy industry is at a crossroads. Farmers are extremely anxious and fearful about what is coming down the tracks with the added bureaucracy and what restrictions will be imposed on them in the future. It is essential that we use every arrow in our armoury to make sure we can put the best case forward for our country regarding the retention of the 220 kg limit. Without it, the financial implications for rural Ireland are too horrid to contemplate.

We will hear from Mr. Pat Sheahan, chairperson, Dairy Industry Ireland and CEO for north Cork; Mr. Billy Cronin, head of supply chain, farm to factory, Dairygold; Mr. Thomas Ryan, senior sustainability manager, Tirlán; Dr. Sean McCarthy, sustainability and service manager, Kerry Agribusiness; Mr. Conor Mulvihill, director, Dairy Industry Ireland and Mr. Dale Crammond, director, Meat Industry Ireland. You are all very welcome to the meeting. I will now ask you to read your opening statements and then we will have a question-and-answer session with the members. Hopefully, we can put some points together that will help us to win the argument in Brussels and convince the other member states to continue our derogation status.

Mr. Pat Sheahan

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. I thank the members for the opportunity to set out the views and concerns of our members on this crucial issue for not only the dairy industry but the wider society and economy of Ireland. I will hand over to Mr. Conor Mulvihill, director of Dairy Industry Ireland, to read the statement.

Mr. Conor Mulvihill

Dairy Industry Ireland represents the primary and secondary dairy manufacturers including the specialised nutrition sector in Ireland. We will attempt to cover the questions outlined by the committee in the course of this opening statement. We welcome the Government's commitment to retain the nitrates derogation as per last week's memo. As an industry, we are fully committed to working with Government to formulate a clear plan to enable the EU Commission to extend Ireland’s nitrates derogation for at least another four-year period beyond 2025, but preferably an indefinite solution reflecting Ireland’s unique outdoor, grass-based, family-farm system. The current lack of certainly is doing little to improve our already high water quality standards but is playing sheer havoc with the fundamentals of Irish agriculture at present. We fear it could instigate structural, social and economic decline if we do not address it. We are in agreement with the Chair's opening statements.

There is a clear determination in our sector to work with Government and other stakeholders to address these significant challenges, including other agri and rural industries. I wish to acknowledge the director of Meat Industry Ireland, Mr. Dale Crammond, who is with us here this evening to also outline the existential threat to Ireland’s key meat industry processing for more than 100,000 farm families. It is not just an issue of dairy, it is really across the whole agriculture industry.

Achieving continuous water quality improvement must be led by scientific knowledge, improvement programmes, quality knowledge transfer and communications to farmers and other stakeholders. There must also be a recognition and acceptance that there will a time lag before implemented actions have the desired impact on the ground. Political engagement will be key to the continuation of the current derogation beyond 2025, enabling the agrifood sector as a whole to achieve the ambition necessary to demonstrate what success looks like.

Our industry is broadly supportive of the recommendations in the recent Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine water quality working group's final report. We also hope the recommendations of this committee will be of huge use to our endeavours. There is a real concern within the industry that the Government has not yet allocated the necessary resources to address this critically important issue. Unless we collectively work to an agreed action plan to improve water quality across all sectors, and thereby preserve the derogation, our capacity as an industry to remain efficient and competitive internationally will be fatally undermined and it will be damaging to the overall Irish economy. A 2023 EY report attributed €17.6 billion annual activity in rural Ireland for dairy alone. Some of that information is attached in appendix A.

The potential impact of a further adjustment to the derogation will not only be economic. There also will be social and environmental impacts. Appendix B of our report lays out the positive scale of the current model across Ireland. We are the envy of many dairy and agricultural economies across the world. Scientific evidence linking adjustments to the derogation and water quality is, to be honest, limited. Any changes to the nitrates derogation require careful consideration because the current onerous regulatory requirements on farmers availing of the derogation provide an additional layer of water quality protections. If the derogation falls, those also go away. Ireland's unique and economically competitive outdoor grass-based model of food production may be undermined, with a risk that Irish dairy would have to turn to intensive high-input systems like in peer economies in Europe. It is not only in Europe; look at Northern Ireland. Dairy farms may be required to endure additional farm costs to compete with other sectors to acquire more land to comply with the nitrates directive, thereby completely undermining Government and EU targets for the organic, tillage and forestry industries and even the protection of our suckler industry. We see this daily as we speak. The family farm model of food production may be undermined in favour of farm consolidation. This is evident in other parts of Europe that do not have the derogation.

Current policy uncertainty - a word I will keep coming back to - is a contributing factor to current milk supply trends. Appendix C of the submission lays out the worrying change in Irish milk supply. It was -4.1% in 2023, and already in 2024, it is -9%. This affects rural communities all over Ireland. With global dairy demand still accelerating year by year, dairy production will move to regions with multiples of the carbon footprint of Irish dairy, which also needs to be remembered. With stakeholders, we wish, as an industry, to take ownership of the issue and bring a solutions-based approach, working with partners across the State. The industry will not solve this on its own. We need help from everybody in this room.

We propose to the committee that the following ten-point action plan be fully resourced and driven by the Government with a singular goal of securing EU Commission approval for the continuation of the derogation to give the sector clarity in the medium term. This cannot be just a short-term solution. First, we welcome the recent Cabinet memo confirming Government support for derogation renewal. Given the importance of maintaining the current nitrates derogation and the dire economic and social consequences were it to be further eroded, we request that the Taoiseach chair a Cabinet subcommittee chiefly tasked with co-ordinating the crossover roles of the relevant Departments that will be impacted. It is not just the Department of agriculture but also the Department of housing, the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, the Department of rural affairs and the Department of enterprise and trade. They should be tasked with securing the derogation in the context of the forthcoming review.

Second, there should be a clear Government-led strategy that will be built around a national farming for water movement. There is already strong industry and Government support for the recent farming for water European Innovation Partnership funding of €60 million. With the support of all stakeholders, it is important that the roll-out of this EIP at a national level is designed to maximise water quality improvements measurably at national level, with farmer involvement and support at its core.

Third, as part of the farming for water movement, every farmer should be supported to develop a nutrient use score, with codes of practice for each sector, not just dairy but beef, cereal and others. Nutrient use is what the farmer has in his or her control. We see that as a key element of our plan.

Fourth, the closed periods for the application of organic manures to land must be respected by all farmers. Not only should this be clearly communicated by reference to the long-term implications of failure to comply, but all stakeholders should work closely to ensure risks to water quality during the closed period are addressed and a compliance culture prevails. Chemical nitrogen allowances should be reduced in line with the water quality working group's recommendations. We have made huge strides in our industry in chemical nitrogen reduction in the past couple of years, which is not really acknowledged by the system. Industry will support and encourage this recommendation.

Fifth, in the absence of anything from the Government or anywhere else, the industry will finalise an independent economic assessment of the effect of changes to the nitrates derogation, identifying potential future scenarios of a stepped reduction. This will help to provide clarity and re-emphasise the importance of working collaboratively on these critical issues. We are already in the latter stages of this project with EY and will be happy to share results with the committee when it is complete.

Sixth, there must be a clear focus on water quality improvement within the requirements of the Bord Bia quality assurance schemes for all sectors, not just dairy. These schemes provide an important opportunity to increase the focus at farm level to address water quality challenges. AgNav, for those who do not know, is a system rolled out by Bord Bia, the ICBF and Teagasc to give farmers accounting metrics for environmental improvements to support recording and to give credits to farmers. This is important. Farmers are doing huge work on water quality improvements and it is about giving credit where credit is due at farm level. They should be encouraged.

Seventh, it is clear that for a Government and stakeholder strategy to be effective on the ground and in every river catchment in the State, further funding will be required, as well as the reallocation of current financial steams. The future Ireland fund recently announced by the Government should be mobilised immediately to underpin the Government's farming for water strategy and to drive the recommendations of the water quality working group. This funding would be a fraction of the loss of output and export sales that would occur from the reduction of nitrates. We feel it could cause a generational splinter of the economy of rural Ireland.

Eighth, enhanced levels of intensive engagement with farmers on the ground by Teagasc, LAWPRO, us in industry and private advisory services can make a real difference in driving change. We have seen that with the ASSAP in place since 2017. This will need planning and funding stemming from a farming for water Government strategic plan. The State agri-science body, Teagasc, should develop a clear strategy and reorientate its climate advisory programmes temporarily to ensure its resources are focused on water quality improvement. To be fair to Teagasc, it is launching a strategy tomorrow in Ashtown on the same topic. We as meat and dairy processors will continue to invest in our own advisory resources and develop champion river catchments within our respective areas. This would be in full alignment with a farming for water national strategy.

Ninth, and perhaps the elephant in the room, is that a national nutrient storage programme is required with attractive rates of grant support to de-risk investment. Farmers need help for slurry storage. Farmers are currently reluctant to invest, given the uncertainty about the future of the derogation. A clear pathway for derogation retention is crucial and critical. Industry supports the water quality working group's recommendation of a 70% grant rate. Yesterday's publication of a national biomethane strategy may offer an opportunity to assist in nutrient storage improvements at farm level while also assisting the Government-mandated commitment to the development of an anaerobic digestion industry to meet energy requirements and climate obligations.

Tenth and finally, we call for a targeted national farming for water communications campaign built on the clear and focused action plan we have outlined, with specific messaging for the different agrifood sectors. This should be launched by the Government without delay. We see the Teagasc event tomorrow as a good first step.

This should contain clear messages about the immediate actions farmers can take to improve water quality on their farms. It must be clear that water quality is impacted by a multitude of sectors, not just agriculture or even agriculture enterprises. It is not just the livestock sector that is impacting on water quality, yet the livestock enterprises are the ones that will be most affected.

I thank the members for their attention. We look forward to answering any questions.

Thank you, Mr. Mulvihill. On the last point, it is not just derogation farmers in the livestock sector. Every farmer with livestock has a part to play, but water quality is most definitely impacted by many other things besides farming enterprises. Against that, we have to make sure we can present the best case possible for the derogation. A point you made forcefully in your statement is that of generational renewal. The uncertainty about the derogation is having a huge negative impact. I see that in my own area and everywhere else. If we are not careful, we will end up with a farming model very similar to that of New Zealand, with very large units, and the family farm model as we know it will disappear. I see it in my neighbourhood where, this spring, a significant number of farmers have decided to exit. They mainly have typical family farms of between 80 and 150 cows. Most of them are in derogation. The paperwork and the uncertainty are making up their minds for them. If a person is farming with from 80 to 100 cows and is told they have to reduce by 15% to 20%, they see no future in it. Regarding the next generation, if you have a son or daughter who is going to take over a farm and the first thing they are told is that they have to reduce numbers, they will just walk away.

Another point is that we have had rapid expansion of our dairy industry since the abolition of quotas. It is safe to say that this expansion is at an end. I cannot see us hitting the levels of production of 2022 again over the next few years from the figures Mr. Muhvihill has given us. The weather has had a huge impact. Everyone I meet tells me that cows are not milking well this spring and it is all weather related. With the number of people leaving the industry, expansion in other herds is definitely not going to compensate for that. It will be a huge problem.

The witnesses have a very well-thought out document here. We will go through it in detail so that the secretariat can make the best possible use of it and so that we, as an Oireachtas committee, can make the maximum effort we can to ensure we have the best possible case going to Brussels. In my view, we were not well enough prepared for the last decision, but there is no point in going back and fighting old battles. That battle is over and we need to maintain focus on ensuring we win this decision. I see Holland has reversed its decision on derogation and is now going back to Brussels seeking a derogation. There are different views in the media on whether that is positive or negative. The Dutch realise the importance of the industry to the country and are trying to reverse the direction of travel.

The point has to be forcefully made that sustainable food production is essential. We have a huge amount of migration at the moment. One of the reasons behind this is world hunger. People are moving from parts of the world where they cannot sustain themselves. The ability of the planet to feed itself is under more and more pressure. It makes no sense, even from a moral point of view, to restrict the food production of a country that can sustainably produce food. World food security is something we have to get back on the agenda. This point needs to be driven home in Brussels. The committee was in Brussels some months ago and met a few Commissioners. I was shocked by the narrow focus of policy there. It was completely focused on climate change. There was no focus on food sustainability or the need for food security. This has to be changed. I am not a climate change denier. I fully accept that climate change is a fact of life and we have to adapt our practices. However, allowing other parts of the world to replace the food we produce here is most definitely not going to help climate change. We have to get all those points across forcefully. I very much welcome your document which is extremely well thought out and put together.

I welcome our guests here this evening. It is important that we get the industry's perspective on the nitrates derogation and the potential impact on the economy. I acknowledge the witnesses' document and the ten-point plan has been very well made. It sets out good parameters where we as a farming community need to go and to see whether we can actually get to where we need to go regarding the issues.

I will start of with the industry's side of the argument. Figures the witnesses have given to the committee indicate that 4.1% was the reduction in volume last year. Mr. Mulvihill just mentioned the frightening figure that we are down 9% this year. I am right in saying that if this 9% was to follow through for the entire year, production would be down by roughly one billion litres of milk. With a knock-on implication of 40 cent a litre, we are looking at a situation where we could be looking at €500 million being taken directly out of the rural economy this year alone as a result of the reduction in the volume of milk.

From the processors' point of view, will Mr. Mulvihill or others give an indication on how that could have a huge impact on their industry and what can be done to make sure it is profitable going forward? We all know and make sure we are paid on A+B+C or AB+C. The C implication, the cost of manufacturing, could be a huge issue in the milk price going forward due to the lack of volume and the figures that have been given to the committee today. Will the witnesses indicate what they believe could be the outcome of this issue?

Mr. Conor Mulvihill

I thank the Senator for the question. The figures are really scary. Last year, across the island, we lost the equivalent milk pool of Aurivo Co-Op. This is one of the biggest companies in the north west. We accept this figure is dissipated across the island and we are looking at it again. The Chairman acknowledged that weather was a big issue and we do hope to recover. The stats are very stark with the figure of 9%. We do hope to recover, with the help of God, with the good weather, perhaps good sentiment coming back and the dairy markets recovering. However, the costs are phenomenal. It is not just the milk cheque; it is the aggregated cost. The EY report in the appendices is not just about that but about what that is supporting. It is not just the money going into farmers' milk cheques. It is the vet, the contractor, the feed merchant and everything else.

My last point, before I hand over to my chairman to talk about the manufacturing implications, is that this money is removed from places in Ireland that do not have BioPharmaChem, Google or Facebook. It is removed from Kanturk, from Ballymee in west Cork or from Ballaghaderreen in Sligo. Money cannot be taken from the likes of these places.

Mr. Pat Sheahan

Regarding the Senator's point about the contribution agriculture makes, out of every euro generated, 90 cent is recirculated back into the economy. In terms of the impact, milk quotas were removed in 2015. Farming is at a crossroads. Farmers do not have a clear pathway going forward. They have never been more confused now than any time in the past 40 years. While there was a restriction on growth when milk quotas were in place, at least farmers knew where they stood. When milk quotas were abolished, it was a case of drive on and, to the Chairman's point, there was a great opportunity with regard to the growing demand for food in the world market.

Farmers have stepped up to the plate in putting additional capacity in place to be able to meet the growth figures. We can talk about weather over the past 12 to 18 months but I deal with farmers daily and meet our board monthly, and farmers are totally confused. They do not know whether the derogation will remain in future or if it will be dropped. The average cow herd is 96 cows. If ten or 12 cows are taken out, the farming enterprise is not viable.

Regarding the industry, a 10% reduction in volume in 59 milk plants around Ireland, from Ballineen to Northern Ireland, means we are looking at a scenario where there could be issues in the industry itself and 59 could become 50, though I am not too sure. We need to start talking about how this will affect industry. Dairy farmers will absolutely be affected but the issue here is that we could lose plants off the back of this.

Mr. Pat Sheahan

That is correct. As I say, the industry has stepped up. It is primarily owned by the co-ops and farmers' money has been used to put that in place. Mr. Mulvihill made the point about the equivalent of Aurivo's volume being lost last year. That means inefficiency with milk going through plants and the cost of production increasing. There is much capacity in the dryers, of six and eight tonnes. They will not be viable to run with reduced volumes of milk. There will potentially be casualties in that. The costs of production will go up, which will back up to milk prices.

It is the perfect storm in many ways.

Mr. Pat Sheahan

Absolutely.

We are trying to protect the family farm model, which has roughly 96 cows. We are trying to protect that across the entire farming platform. If we want to have issues with viability come into the system, as the Chair said, the implication is farmers going out of the system and us ending up with a New Zealand-style system off the back of the changes that are being proposed. What would that mean for the rural environment that we live in and its economy? This is potentially a doomsday scenario.

Mr. Pat Sheahan

It would be devastating. If you go into rural towns, like where I work in Kanturk, up and down the west coast, and take out or reduce agriculture, farming and agrifood, that will have a significant impact on rural Ireland. We do not have the foreign direct investment that some larger urban areas have in place.

I was not going to mention Cork but since Mr. Sheahan did, I need to acknowledge that the report states that the value of the milk product that comes out of County Cork alone is €4.22 billion. If we were to have a 10% drop in that in the county, it would be the most significant drop ever. That would take Ringaskiddy out of Cork in many ways with the impact it would have on the local economy. That report is quite frightening. We could have a loss of potentially 10% of the €4.22 billion, with the quota for milk volumes going through plants this year.

Mr. Mulvihill's ten-point plan was really well made. I will home in on point 9. Storage is really important. We all know that the key issue on farmers' doorsteps is storage. We have had a bad winter and they are under pressure regarding volumes. Will Mr. Mulvihill elaborate on how important this nutrient storage programme is, how we need to look at a 70% grant and how it is a key factor in the report?

Mr. Conor Mulvihill

From our perspective, it is a nutrient. We are told it is the perfect circular economy to follow. We have organic fertiliser to help us cut back on chemical fertiliser. That costs money. We have a situation where the sword of Damocles is hanging over all these farm families. They are faced with a vista of the construction prices of slurry tanks going up. The average slurry tank, to my ignorant knowledge, costs €50,000 to €60,000. A farmer will not invest in that storage, which is a key water quality helper, to be able to put out vital nutrients at the right time, if the farmer thinks that the derogation will be lost after two years.

The most frustrating element is that there is scant evidence of a link between slurry storage and water quality improvement, which is the goal of all of us here. We need certainty. I use that word over and over again in the presentation. Farmers and industry, selfishly from our perspective, need certainty.

Mr. Billy Cronin

Nutrients from slurry are worth €43 per cow. As Mr. Mulvihill said, we can reduce the chemical fertiliser and get the extra value, so it is free to the farmer. He can utilise the phosphate, potassium and nitrogen in that too. It is important that we use that and spread it on the land that is appropriate to take it. Slurry is one element of nutrients. If we lose the derogation, it will force farming indoors. That is the system that we are heading for because it is impossible to graze the platform if there is less stock in the ground. As Mr. Sheahan said, the average farm has 93 cows. If that goes to 70 cows and a farmer growing 12 to 14 tonnes of dry matter per hectare, that will not be possible to graze during the season, so it will force farmers indoors to keep the stock level and maintain the 93.

Will Mr. Cronin explain from the co-operative point of view, from his people talking to farmers on the ground, how important the communication link is? He is having an event next Friday morning in Templemartin, which is part of that process. Will he explain what Dairygold is doing to inform farmers of what needs to be done on the ground?

Mr. Billy Cronin

Sustainability is a key component of Dairygold. We have a team of six sustainability advisers dotted around different catchment areas in counties Cork, Tipperary and Limerick. They meet farmers daily. We have a water quality programme. We introduced grassroots in 2023. This is a bonus system that will help farmers to drive action on farms. One of the key components of that is water quality. I sign up to my grassroots bonus system and get a 0.75 cent per litre equivalent, which is worth €4,200 per farm on average for each Dairygold farmer.

The first component of that is water quality. Farmers open their farms for water quality visits. The sustainability adviser goes to identify what needs to be done for nutrient management, farmyard management and land management, and creates four or five key actions for the farmer to implement. That is the first thing. It relates to the ecosystem, along with fertiliser and slurry storage. There is then herd and herd management, and recording herd health. It comes back to the farmer at the end of the day. The farmer is key to all of this. Without the farmer, nothing gets done. It is important that the farmer is educated and has the tools in the toolbox to ask the right question. Farmers are being informed and communicated with about what needs to be done.

We have a joint programme with Teagasc for peer-to-peer learning. We have ten demonstration farms across the Dairygold catchment area, showcasing the development of the science, trusting the science and implementing low emissions slurry, the nutrient management plan, using less fertiliser, growing grass and introducing clover to reduce nutrients. That is peer-to-peer learning. Farmers learn from each other, which is a key.

As Senator Lombard said, we have an event near his constituency on Friday at Raymond Goggin's farm in Templemartin. That will showcase what Raymond is doing for water quality, whether the buffer strips, yard management, slurry storage or so on. People will see the science behind what Dairygold is doing. Teagasc is supporting it too.

I thank Mr. Cronin. Mr. Mulvihill's graph C is very detailed. The source is the European Commission. He might elaborate about where we are going with the production of milk in Europe. I look at a superpower like France, which is down by 2.7%. I am hearing rumours that France could be a net importer of dairy products by the end of this decade. We are looking at a time-bomb when it comes to the importation of products and where they come from.

It is quite possible that Europe will not be able to provide its own dairy product going forward with the trajectory we are on at the moment. Will Mr. Mulvihill elaborate on the graph about where he believes the industry is going in a European perspective?

Mr. Conor Mulvihill

I am a glass half full person. I really think we have a fabulous dairy industry in Ireland. Its fundamentals in economics and sustainability are fantastic and we are caught in this uncertainty - I use that word over and over again - that is absolutely killing us and causing the industry to haemorrhage young farmers and confidence at the moment. We have the opportunity, because of the blessing of our historic dairy culture and climate, to be a structural exporter to Europe, including to such countries as France and Germany, if we get it right. That means delivering on our water quality and greenhouse gas, GHG, commitments. We will have the fundamentals right, if we get over this hump. We have navigated this before. We got through Brexit, the Covid-19 pandemic, the Ukraine war and the energy crisis, and the dairy industry came out of each and every one stronger.

We have a group of policies and it is manifest in appendix C, that Europe has taken a decision - the Cathaoirleach also addressed it with respect to his visit to Europe - to structurally decline dairy production over the course of this. It is manifest in the graphs. Ireland, which is the jewel in the crown of Europe's dairy economy, as it is a grass-fed, outdoor, family-farm-based economy, is now haemorrhaging milk. I still maintain that the fundamentals are hugely positive. We have issues, but we are addressing them. The industry is here together, marching in lockstep. It is not very often the dairy and meat industries are seen together. We are marching in lockstep because we can see that we are dependent on one another, on the tillage industry, on the good organics industry and so on. This has been portrayed in some quarters as a dairy issue. It is not. It is not even an agriculture issue. This is an Ireland Inc. issue. If we get over this, if we take the canaries in the mines that are falling off and get it right, we can come back. We might not be growing. It is quite clear we are probably not in the post quota era we have been in for many years. However, we do not want to be in a situation where rural Ireland is haemorrhaging billions of euro. That is what is manifesting. We are pleading with the committee to help us to address it and to make our water quality what we all want it to be.

Water quality in Ireland is third in the EU. That is often forgotten. We do not have rivers of lava. We have the third best nitrates levels. There are different parameters. It is apples and oranges as this committee has heard everything about. However, Irish water quality is very good. We want it to improve and for it to be number one. If we can do that, we can keep the dairy renaissance that has kept a social and economic renaissance over rural Ireland for the past decade. We can be key exporters to the economies the Senator spoke about, such as France, and give them base product. That would be a great story for us all to tell.

I thank all the witnesses for being here and for providing detailed information. It makes our job very easy because much has been asked and discussed and a lot of it is here so I do not have much to add.

It is important to hear from Meat Industry Ireland, emphasising the point that this does not only apply to dairy. I entirely agree that this is much bigger than farming or agriculture in Ireland. It is our rural economies and our island. That is and has to be to the fore. It is important for us to perhaps delve a little deeper into the wider implication for farmers, including beef or suckler farmers for example.

Mr. Dale Crammond

I thank the Deputy for the question. She is absolutely right. It is also a critical issue for the beef sector. At the moment, approximately 60 % of beef output comes from the dairy herd and, therefore, any reduction in dairy cow numbers arising from any changes in the derogation would have obvious impacts on the beef sector's output. For the first time, as Mr. Mulvihill mentioned, EY is doing an economic analysis of this. For the first time the beef sector has been included in that and there will be a separate module looking specifically at the impact on the beef sector. We now have to walk with our colleagues in the dairy industry and all stakeholders to do what we can to help to address the water quality challenge. It is a little bit different. On a beef farm, let us be honest, it tends to be more an issue of phosphorous, whereas from a dairy point of view it tends to be more a nitrogen issue. There are huge opportunities for beef farmers to get involved in working with the local authority waters programme, LAWPRO, and engage on the phosphorous issue. We are very much lock and stock with the dairy industry on this issue because we see the huge threat to our industry and the obvious economic impact that has on many parts of the west of the country, such as the Deputy's area, where the dairy industry would not be very strong, but the beef industry would be prominent.

The point has been made that one of the biggest issues is that people who are working in a sector, perhaps they have a dairy farm, are literally waiting every few years to see whether they will retain it. No one could function in any job, role or business like that. The point the Cathaoirleach made is important. We need to tease out the issues that relate to the next generation. No farmers will want to encourage or influence their son or daughter to take on their farm enterprise, family farm or whatever you want to call it, when there is no certainty. It must be difficult to have to work in such an environment. While the focus will be on retaining the derogation now, a longer term solution has to be put on the table. The phrase "a clear pathway" was used. That is exactly what is needed because for the next generation coming up it is already a challenge. When we meet farmers, we might expect the first question to be about a scheme or income but it is actually about their sons or daughters having emigrated and they are not sure whether they should be encouraging them on to the farm because they are not sure whether there is an income in it for them. There are huge challenges for the future of our family farms and there is a real threat to them. Rather than stumbling from one issue to another and engaging and influencing on some and not on others, we have to have a pathway and deal with the challenges head-on. This is one of them. It would be interesting to get the witnesses' perspective on the longer term and getting out of the situation where it is every few years and we kind of limp from one to the next.

Dr. Sean McCarthy

I will make one or two comments specifically on that and on the comment around the structural change that could occur in our farm businesses, the large scale and so forth. I worked in New Zealand for six years. They never experienced the uncertainty we have. There was huge opportunity and excitement. There was no end to the number of people coming into the industry from Auckland and all the major cities. They saw dairying as an opportunity to make a career, build wealth and so on. That is at huge risk here. We may not see a structural change. We may see the industry being decimated if we do not encourage the next generation into it.

We looked at the impact of the abolition of milk quotas and the opportunity for family farms to increase a little the scale they were working in. All of a sudden those farm businesses became very resilient from an economic perspective. We would not have been as competitive even in the European context, in terms of the economic resilience of our family farm businesses. That opportunity was important. It would be remiss of us now to take a backwards step.

On the derogation, we need medium stocking densities to make our grass-based grazing systems work. They do not work at very low stocking rates. We look at water quality in the context of environmental sustainability or carbon. We have the lowest carbon intensity associated with our dairy. That is because we operate a good grass-based grazing, outdoor system and we cannot put that model at risk either, in terms of sustainability and the holistic perspective.

I welcome the witnesses to the meeting. Like previous speakers, I compliment them on the opening statement and the suggestions in it. Realistically, we could copy and paste it into a report. It limits the questions to be asked. We often have a field day here because the devil is in the detail. What we want to know is left out and we have to chase it. In this case, everything is here.

We are watching what is going on and I am familiar with some of the projects. I know Mr. Cronin mentioned a project and Mr. Ryan said Tirlán is doing the Slaney project. I invite them to comment on that and what it involves.

I have a bugbear when it comes to these things, however. The importance of this should sink in for people out there when they see that everybody is singing off the one hymn sheet and pulling together. How do we get even more people in and on board with what is being done, such as in the context of suppliers? I will give the very simple example of where a river or drain runs through five or six farms and the first farmer is a customer of Tirlán. He gets all that backup and advice and is doing everything by the book, and two farms down it is the same thing. However, let us suppose the lad in between is either a customer of a different co-op processor or he is beef or tillage and, for the purpose of conversation, he is a bit of a cowboy. In that case, the good work of everyone else along the river would be undone. How do we get everybody to buy into the great work that so many are doing? Until we do that, we will not see the results we require.

With regard to the derogation, we were in Brussels, as the Chairman said. Again, we are all on the one hymn sheet. I am an advocate of carbon linkage and we have a grass-fed model but, at the end of the day, the derogation is about water. The grass-fed model, the gasses and the excrement or whatever are secondary to water. It is going to be won or lost on water. On the ten-point action plan outlined by Mr. Mulvihill, if we had a magic wand or the Taoiseach came in here to say he had been watching the proceedings in his office, he agrees with the proposal and is going to grant permission for it to be put in place, could the witness put targets and a timeframe on the ten points as to what they can deliver, what they would deliver and when they would deliver with regards to the bigger picture going forward?

As has been mentioned, to see MII in with the dairy industry is probably unique in itself. While I am drifting slightly from the derogation, I have a question for Mr. Crammond. As I have stated on several occasions, the next biggest potential problem after the derogation is possible changes in Europe for live exports. That would be a major problem for the dairy sector and male calves, etc., going forward. We have representatives of both sectors present. Are any advances being made on the potential veal industry in Ireland? That would definitely go a long way to solving some of the problems if we are hit with a situation where we cannot export calves. If we send them out on the hook as opposed to the hoof, that would certainly gets over that problem. I ask that given that we have representatives of both sectors present. I know it does not relate to derogation but Mr. Crammond might comment on it. I will leave it at that for the moment.

Mr. Conor Mulvihill

I will probably bring in Mr. Ryan to speak to the Tirlán example. Mr. Sheahan may wish to come in first.

Mr. Pat Sheahan

On the question regarding Dairygold farmers and the farmer in between, all of the co-ops have programmes, including sustainability programmes and-----

The beef man or the tillage man is brought in too.

Mr. Pat Sheahan

Exactly. Up to 100,000 beef and suckler farms are looking at doing exactly the same thing.

If I am a suckler farmer and the Cathaoirleach has a neighbouring farm and there is a river between the two farms, would the co-op offer their services to me even though I am not a supplier of-----

Mr. Pat Sheahan

We can because we are a dairy co-operative and there is also an agri trading element to our business. We deal with non-dairy farmers as well. Some of them are our shareholders, others are not. When we take on a catchment and review a catchment, it is every livestock farmer within that catchment irrespective of what co-op they supply or whether they are a dairy farmer or otherwise.

Mr. Conor Mulvihill

We had the farming for water €60 million EIP, which is a great start. It was launched on 27 March and we are rolling it out. It is open to all types of farms. What we are looking for is a Government strategy to implement that with proper timeframes, results and KPIs. We need an evidentiary base to give to the EPA. Let us call the EPA our referee; it is the David Gough of our industry now in terms of giving the data to the EU Commission. We are trying to get those data points. I will hand over to Mr. Ryan of Tirlán who has a really good example of what it is doing beyond dairy.

Mr. Thomas Ryan

I will not mince words. Our CEO, Jim Bergin, has said the loss of the derogation would be catastrophic. It would be catastrophic in the context of Tirlán as a co-op supporting 9,200 jobs, where two thirds of our suppliers farm above the 170 kg N/ha, and we support economic activity of €5.5 billion across the 16 counties we source and the farm families that supply milk. That is the starkness of the reality facing us.

When we talk to our farmers at regional meetings and our recent AGM, the one word that kept coming up, going back to Mr. Mulvihill, is certainty. They look for certainty on two fronts. One is from the regulatory landscape. When Teagasc appeared before the committee in March, it stated that 39 new measures relating to nitrates had been introduced in the past four years. That is 39 new measures on farms we have to get our head around and implement. If they are not complied with, there is a risk of cross-compliance and a loss of the basic payment.

The other one, which Mr. Mulvihill already touched on, is the timeframe and the time span that we actually have our derogation for. We engage every day with farm families who want to do the right thing, and are doing it. When they are expected and required to make capital investments, however, in terms of funding it with the bank and financing it through their own capital, a time horizon of two years is simply not enough, as happened with the interim review. There is an argument to be made in respect of four years. There is a need for regulatory certainty and certainty on the time frame.

The participation of farmers, whether through Tirlán or more widely, in water quality improvement is not something new. I go back to Bord Bia's Origin Green sustainable dairy assurance scheme, SDAS, which is now with us more than ten years, and the sustainable beef and lamb assurance scheme, SBLAS. Water quality protection and enhancement is an integral part of that. This involves soil testing, measuring water quality and so many other measures. We layer on top of that the 30 agricultural sustainability support and advisory programme, ASSAP, water quality advisers from the co-ops who are working every day with farm families. In the case of Tirlán, we have six permanent and three new resources coming in and working exclusively on the water quality question. It is similar for Mr. Cronin's organisation. As Mr. Sheahan said, water quality protection and enhancement is part of our sustainability action payment programme. There is €16 million a year dedicated to supporting our farm families to enhance the sustainability of their farm businesses. We know it is still not enough, and that is where the Slaney project has come to the fore. In effect, the Slaney project is a multi-agency collaboration. It is Tirlán acting as an enabling partner with the local authority waters programme, LAWPRO, representatives of which appeared before the committee along with Teagasc, coming around the table and asking what the science is and where the greatest challenge is.

I make the point to Deputy Mythen that we decided to situate it on the River Slaney quite simply because it is one of the catchments of concern identified by the EPA. The River Slaney is one of the catchments identified in its mapping as presenting a significant challenge. We sat down with LAWPRO and Teagasc and asked which of the Slaney subcatchments are most challenged. We have landed on six. In that context, we have brought in three new resources and are bringing in a further two who are now working hand in glove with our farm family suppliers in effectively developing an exemplar project. It is exemplar because it is community-wide. Yes, dairy farmers and farmers in the community are carrying out our role but, in addition, LAWPRO will bring the community around with regard to what needs to be done with septic tanks. Teagasc is reaching out to and supporting non-dairy farmers in the tillage sector. This whole-of-community approach, with the objective of stabilising and improving water quality, is a blueprint.

We will be challenging ourselves to replicate it right across our supply catchment. We are very emboldened, despite the fact it has been raining since last July and despite the fact there are so many challenges on farms. When we go out and introduce our farm support services as part of this Slaney project, we are meeting open doors because farmers are saying they know there is change and they are asking to be given certainty and to be told what they have to do, that they will be up for it. They are also saying, however, that they need the resourcing and the funding. The question of slurry storage requirements that Senator Lombard referred to is a big challenge at farm level. Another challenge is nutrient use efficiency. If I have a figure to work off at farm level, on the basis of knowing my figure, how do I adapt it and change it to reduce the impact and risk of runoff?

From our perspective at Tirlán, we are meeting a very engaged supplier base who want to make the changes but are looking for the certainty so that they have a sense of security for the longer term. When I look at factors such as the reduction in fertiliser use from 408,000 tonnes in 2018 to 300,000, show me another sector that can say it is already delivering measures within the climate action plan. It is already happening right in front of us. The narrative that farming families are not up for the challenge is very different from the proof points that exist. There are challenges ahead of us and no one is standing back from that, but we are resourcing it, we have a clear strategy in place, and together we are looking at whether we can get the finances in place to deliver a positive outcome.

Mr. Dale Crammond

I am happy to comment on that briefly. As part of the integration between the dairy and the beef sectors, it is not just the water quality issue or the climate challenge but also that piece of having better quality calves coming into the beef sector. The likes of the commercial CBV value is now going to be put up on mart boards. That is going to help drive breeding decisions on dairy farms and help farmers make better decisions. From an industry point of view, we would very much welcome those better quality calves coming into the beef system and rearing them all the way through to finish. That would be a preferable model for the industry than a veal production system, for example. One or two members may have looked at that, but it is not something we have looked at on an industry-wide level. Our preference would very much be to continue that focus on dairy-beef integration. The Department launched a dairy-beef strategy earlier this year and we want now to work with the Government to try to implement it as quickly as possible.

It cannot all be dairy-beef. There will be a dairy calf. Sexed semen is progress but it is not going to take over. I was talking more about the male dairy-bred calf, which we will have to have. It cannot all be beef-bred.

Mr. Dale Crammond

No, and we still probably have the issue with live exports. It is going to be challenged over time from an animal welfare point of view. We still have it and we need to try to maintain that for as long as possible to allow some of these other changes to happen. We will continue to work together as an industry to try to take that forward. I am not sure veal is the answer, but let us continue to look at it. I am sure that is something the members of Meat Industry Ireland will look at.

Mr. Thomas Ryan

I wish to add to that and speak to our Twenty20 beef club partnership with Kepak in Tirlán as an example of a partnership in action. We have 40,000 calves in 2024 signed in as part of that. This is very much aimed at producing calves. I was thinking, as I listened to Mr. Crammond, that here, yet again, is an example of an innovative initiative and of a partnership where there is a challenge in the marketplace and we wonder how we are going to be able to work together to solve our problem. This Twenty20 beef club, a Tirlán-Kepak partnership that is recognised through Cogeca in terms of its economic and sustainability innovation, is yet again another proof point of positive farmer engagement and shows that where there is a programme and scheme put in place and an opportunity, farmers are generally up for it and ready to take the opportunity.

We have a vótáil, gentlemen, so I am going to have to suspend the meeting. We will come back because I know there are a few more who want to put questions to the witnesses. I apologise. We will probably be 20 minutes to half an hour. That is democracy.

There is one point I would like our witnesses to address when we come back. We talk about certainty, but at the moment, dairy farmers do not know what their stocking level is as regards nitrates. There is banding and the level of production going with that, and now there is this allowance for the feeding of a low protein ration. You are trying to calculate where you are at, we are virtually halfway through the year and people are going to have to make decisions. I wonder whether the co-ops can help to do the calculations. I raised in the Dáil this week the need for the Department to come out with a statement at the end of each month so people know exactly what their stocking rate is. The complication in that is that the Department will not know if a person is feeding a low-protein ration and what impact that is going to have. Three or 4 kg of an allowance per cow will have a huge impact on a person's stocking rate. There is a role for the co-ops in this to get information to farmers because, at the moment, they do not know. Unfortunately, we are going to be in a quota situation at the end of the year where, if people are heading into a different band, they will have to take corrective action to keep under the 220. This is something we might address when we come back - the complications for farmers in knowing exactly where they are with their stocking rate.

Sitting suspended at 7.36 p.m. and resumed at 8 p.m.

We will resume in public session.

Most of the questions have been asked. I thank the witnesses for their in-depth analysis. What we are talking about here is Ireland Inc. on the dissection table. It is that serious. The loss of the industry is unthinkable. I have questions for the witnesses. They have said there was an independent economic impact assessment. When exactly do they expect that to be finished?

We all know that food security is so important. It is important as energy. This committee will support the witnesses every way we can. Having said that, I would like to ask the industry what has it done in terms of innovation, or improvements within the industry, to improve water quality and cut down on the nitrates?

Mr. Pat Sheahan

In terms of the EY report, that should be out in three to four weeks' time. The information has been compiled from each of the members. It is being worked through. That should be made available in three to three and a half weeks.

Mr. Conor Mulvihill

We will endeavour to get that back and by the sounds of it we might have it in time for the publication of the report in terms of the timeline. We will certainly get it to the Cathaoirleach and the members.

In terms of the Deputy's second question, I could not agree more. I would double down on that point about carbon leakage, which is pooh-poohed. If it is not produced here, people want nutritious dairy. We often say we are not in the food industry; we are in the nutrition industry. There are people today in nursing homes and hospitals that are taking in dairy nutrition that is keeping them alive. This is not Burger King or McDonald's. This is what people need in terms of nutrition, so that is very important. Food security is a great element and we are able to do it economically and in an environmentally sustainable way.

In terms of the innovation question Deputy Mythen asked, we are nothing without our farmers. Everyone here is here on the back of farm families. We are privileged to be here and we have to have our own house in order as an industry. It is not often talked about, and I do not think it is talked about enough, that farming has 25%. A newspaper cannot be opened without seeing a culture war article about farmers and farming obligations. Industry has a 35% target and no one talks about it. It is not just agri-industry; it is all types of industry. If we want to be credible to our farmers, we have to hit our own targets both on the carbon reduction talked about but also having our water quality right coming out of factories. We are investing not thousands but millions in water quality improvement. Mr. Sheahan, who is the CEO, is on that. Does anybody want to take it up?

Mr. Billy Cronin

Milk coming into the factories is about 12.5% to 13% solids. There is a lot water in that; it is around 87% water. Water has to be moved because it goes out in powder or it goes out in cheese. Those are the two primary formats. Inside the factory gate, there is efficiency. There are kilowatts of electricity per 1,000 l of milk and we measure that continuously on an hourly basis.

There is water recycling and water coming from evaporators. There is water coming from reverse osmosis, RO, plants because they are used to concentrate the solids from 12% up to 45%, or 22% if you use an RO plant. There is water coming from that. That water is being treated to use for recycling back into clean-in-place, CIP, centres and so on. Efficiency is key within the factory gates. The milk is brought in and it is converted as efficiently as possible from a yield perspective so as much product is recovered into the bag as possible. The yield is measured whether we are making cheddar, demineralised whey powder or lactose. That is all about efficiency.

In water terms, we reduce our hydraulic load because we have to. Milk cannot brought in and all the water that is taken off the milk cannot be pumped to the effluent treatment plant. That is recycled and reused to displace potable water as well.

On slurry storage, which is so important, we are running into a lot of problems with planning and the planning departments. Is there anything to be said on that or what would the witnesses opinions be on it?

Mr. Thomas Ryan

I thank Deputy Mythen. I am in agreement with Mr. Cronin. All of us in the co-ops are operating a lean model on our production sites. We are focused in the first instance on reducing our water usage and then, as Mr. Cronin articulated, on the basis of reducing, reusing and recycling. That is very much the model against which we KPI and benchmark ourselves on the water side. Similarly, on the carbon reduction side, we have carbon reduction targets and objectives out to 2030. They are very much aligned with the science based target initiative, SBTI, and in the case of Tirlán, working with organisations like Carbon Trust.

The Deputy is right, and no one knows more than Tirlán of the challenges when it comes to planning. In the context of the increasing level of opposition to planning applications that farmers are putting in, farmers are also experiencing quite a delay in terms of the time lag between submitting an application and a request for further information coming back to them, often close to the end of the application. What would be helpful would be measures like when you apply the targeted agricultural modernisation scheme, TAMS, the area is lined up regarding planning not being a requirement. There should also be a defined timeline that a local authority adheres to in terms of granting planning permission. We know the deadline around 1 January 2026 in the context of the derogation. Again, this word certainly keeps returning. A defined timeline around local authorities responding to planning applications would be very helpful and would provide a higher level of certainty when applications go in.

As an industry, is there an innovation department within it? Something new will come up and maybe save millions and save all the water. Someone is going to come up with some idea somewhere. Is there an investment process for that?

Mr. Conor Mulvihill

We work with Government and the Dairy Processing Technology Centre jointly with Enterprise Ireland to look at innovation and applying research and development. I know Mr. Crammond and Meat Industry Ireland has a meat technology centre doing something similar. We are very lucky that in the primary dairy industry, there are co-ops. That tradition of working together is there. Now they compete commercially, but they all work together. I do not want to speak for the meat industry but people do try to work together. Maybe Mr. Sheahan wants to take that.

Mr. Pat Sheahan

It is a free competitive basis. In terms of the technology used, it is what is called best available technology, BAT, in regard to what we are doing. That is the benchmark that all of our operations work towards.

Mr. Dale Crammond

Innovation is key in every industry, and no more so than in agriculture. We have the meat technology centre based in Teagasc in Ashtown. It is funded significantly by Enterprise Ireland and members, the processors, also make contributions.

It looks at a range of issues. It is in its second phase at the moment so it could be looking at meat-eating quality genetics, the factory of the future, how automation could help in processing and helping that lean processing model. That innovation is critical. On the water quality side, who knows? Things are constantly changing. New ideas will come through at a factory level, for example, on how water is cleaned and released into water course, etc. It absolutely has to be a part of the discussion also.

Mr. Thomas Ryan

To give an example, in the case of Tirlán in December 2021, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy McConalogue, opened our €15 million innovation centre in Ballyragget. It is a 2,000 sq. m innovation centre, which is very much focused on value-add, both on dairy and grains and around how we can move up the value chain. That is very much part of our growth strategy, as it is for many of us here, for the future.

Before we broke, I asked the gentlemen whether they could bring clarity for farmers regarding knowing the situation they will be in from now onwards, towards the end of the year. On my second question, Senator Lombard asked how much milk we are back and how many million litres we are back. We have invested hugely in stainless steel over the last number of years and there has been huge investment all across the country in stainless steel. Are there figures on the reduction we have now and what that will add to the cost of processing?

Dr. Sean McCarthy

From the perspective of giving farmers guidance in terms of where they sit on a monthly basis, ultimately it would be good if that information was available in the AgFood portal, from where farmers are accustomed to seeking information. The key information is available there and we submit at farmers' requests. We submit the milk volume information through the Irish Cattle Breeding Federation, ICBF, and they generate the banding piece and the farmers select the different bands they are committing to. That information is then aligned with land information, etc. from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Another opportunity that is probably there is a decision support tool that could be provided on the ICBF platform. This tool should have a forecasting component to it so that on a monthly basis, not only can farmers receive an indication of where they sit, they could also move a lever in terms of inputs like crude protein percentage, etc. If we have a year like this and if a farmer is asked today where he or she thinks he or she is going to end up in terms of even the crude protein piece, there is a lot of feed gone in in the last few months, so the questions is what is the autumn going to entail. Ultimately, that figure cannot be generated with entire certainty until the end of the year. What farmers need is a tool that will allow them to forecast on a monthly basis where they are likely to sit and what they need to do in terms of animal numbers. It is an indication of where farmers are at, as well as a forecasting decision support tool that they need in order to allow them to make what are quite substantial decisions in terms of reducing stock numbers throughout the year. Without that information, they are going to hesitate to make that decision and an over-correction may have to be done the later in the year that it happens. A farmer's stocking rate could be reduced in September but it may have to be reduced substantially more in December to meet a target.

Drastic action would be needed.

Dr. Sean McCarthy

Exactly. The Chair has hit the nail on the head. That information needs to be provided to farmers as accurately as it can be throughout the year.

Yes, and that is not happening at the moment.

Dr. Sean McCarthy

Unfortunately, it is not, no.

Okay. What is the process then?

Mr. Conor Mulvihill

I will say briefly that we would be part of the UI scoping document and we are trying to get some figures on that. We will be coming back to the committee with that. What I would say is that naturally, because of the grass-based system, Irish dairy processing already incurs higher costs because we have stainless steel that is fallow during the non-peak time. The beauty, however, of the grass-based system that we are here fighting to retain as part of derogation, is the lower cost and higher quality of that grass, and the milk that comes from it is well worth the cost. There is no doubt whatsoever, I would bet my bottom dollar, that the UI report is going to come and say that milk processing is going to be far less efficient. Ultimately, the farmer will bear that.

The peak to valley ratio is going to increase because lads who milk cows through the year will not do it because of the danger of going into a different band.

Mr. Conor Mulvihill

It depends. If we look at what has happened, Northern Ireland is a great example. You also see it in the Netherlands and New Zealand, as well as Denmark, Belgium and other peer small dairy economies, they all have gone to indoor systems. They have gone away from what we are told with the environmentally-----

That is a dramatic change. If we go that way, we will go into the top band and we are just going to drive on production per cow. That is a different scenario completely.

Mr. Conor Mulvihill

Yes, and we want to avoid that.

Well, Kerrygold would not hold up well in that scenario.

I have been listening to the speakers and I will probably go a different way than that of the other questions that were asked. I was listening to all of the answers and there is a lot of experience and knowledge about the whole dairy industry. In the witnesses' view, is the model being used accepted?

Mr. Conor Mulvihill

Would that be the model on water quality or in general?

Do the witnesses buy into the modelling that is being used of X amount of cattle in a radius of whatever mileage or kilometres, plus there is X amount of sewage treatment in plants and there is X amount of tillage and there is X amount of this, that and the other? Do the witnesses buy into that?

Mr. Conor Mulvihill

First, from our perspective, we accept the EPA are the arbiters and regulators. We engage with the EPA and Teagasc and we have scant-----

I am not saying or questioning that the witnesses agree to the arbiter. The question I am asking is about the modelling that is being used.

Mr. Conor Mulvihill

There is scant evidence - limited evidence - regarding stocking rate and the derogation and water quality. We had that in our report and we question where did the 220 kg N/ha figure come out of. We strongly challenged on that. We also challenge the point - you will see it regarding the report - that it is not just a livestock issue. We accept, and anyone with logic would state that because agriculture is 80% to 90% of the landmass, it of course is one of the big pressures on water. We accept that; there is no evading the science. Forget about us, though, it is what the farmer feels and the farmer feels persecuted. That is what we are getting. Farmers do not talk about price any more, they talk about persecution regarding water quality and GHGs. The price has only been coming to the end of it in recent times. Whatever about GHGs, which are nearly esoteric, people know about their water quality. They want to be there and they want good water quality in their rural communities. It is very easy to access farmers on that and I note the examples given by the people from the co-ops here who are working with farmers. The agricultural sustainability support and advisory programme, ASSAP, that we have been working with for the last couple of years, has a 97% take-up rate from the farmers. Farmers want to embrace it but we do try to work with the EPA to explain that we are only one of the pressures. We are a key pressure, which we acknowledge, we are not trying to wash our hands of it. As the EPA will be coming in on this issue in the next couple of weeks, I know the committee will have questions for it.

My problem is the validation whereby X number of rivers are done on a regular basis and Y number of rivers are done maybe once a year and there is a fair variance between what is happening there.

I do not know whether people were watching our committee meeting a few weeks back when we had people from the Department of the environment in. I asked the witnesses whether they were comfortable with the target we have to get to. I asked them if they would use that if they were doing the testing. They said they would not and that it was Europe that set this bar.

Does IBEC have scientific people looking at this or checking it out? The fear I have, and I am not a scientist, is that even though there are farmers doing their best right around this country, the bar may be so high that it is unachievable. Bear in mind that if you look at the map of quality water and water is in a bad state right across Europe, we do not even go into the colour of the water the rest of Europe has or the type of pollution. About 50% of our water has a good status, or is basically holding its own. Has anyone asked whether this bar European has set is achievable? I was actually surprised with the comments from those from the Department that they would not use that model. I would like to know the thoughts of our witnesses on that.

Mr. Thomas Ryan

A question that comes to mind is whether a farmer has a tool today to be able to effect change positively on the farm in terms of the measurements here. I refer to point three in our submission. We are saying that every farmer should be supported to develop a nutrient-use score with a code of practice for each sector, so at farm level, we can say every one of our farm family suppliers has a carbon footprint number. We all know through the Teagasc 12-point plan what actions we can take to effect that number positively and, by extension, reduce the carbon footprint.

Today at farm level, no farm, except during a monitored-farm programme or an exemplar-type programme, uses a nutrient use score. They do not have a baseline in terms of something positive that they can start from to reduce their carbon footprint, such as a nutrient-use score or a surplus figure that they have for the farm on which they can act and take the necessary actions. When we look at the data points, you get that nutrient score figure, you reduce it by a third and you considerably reduce the end losses through the urine patches in the field. There is then a direct link with water quality. I would argue that today farmers do not have the tools they need. We are talking about models, tools and everything else. We do not have the basic tool required to positively impact water quality. That is a big gap. It is a big gap to ourselves in Dairy Industry Ireland. We positively engaged with ICBF, Teagasc and Bord Bia to get that in place. We are working towards possibly having such a figure by July and driving it through the ICBF report and what goes with that. However, this is a fundamental that should be here and in the year 2024, we are pulling the sector together to make it happen.

If we look at the significant changes, and I can only speak for Tirlán where we have seen a 6.3% reduction in our carbon footprint since 2018, imagine the kind of improvements we will be able to record and report on when we give farmers the basic tool to be able to effect change positively. That is a fundamental thing that could positively come out in terms of a recommendation. It is something we would be very supportive of.

The other point that comes to mind is around the good status. It is worth remembering a point that Mr. Mulvihill mentioned at the very beginning. We are in the top three when it comes to water quality at European level. That should not to be heard as a reason for inaction. Of course, there are markers and strong indicators of challenge and that is why we have projects like Slaney, we have Mulcair and so many more right across right across the country. We, as co-ops, are positively stepping in beside them because we know change is required. Are the models being used peer reviewed? If they are, that is good. Have they been independently published? I know we are constantly challenged here. If a report comes out, it would be said that, "You would say that". That is why the work that DII is leading on around the socioeconomic impact of a potential move and change in the derogation is being prepared by EY. It has been commissioned and will be completed by EY because the output of that has to be independent and strong enough that it allows us to say when a decision is being made in the case of Tirlán, for example, that we have to think about the 19,200 jobs that Tirlán are supporting and think about the €5.5 billion in economic activity in addition to all the environmental activities happening through the Slaney, ASSAP and everything that we are all driving on. They need to look at that in the round. Give us a basic tool to effect change positively.

I presume our witnesses are all in support of anaerobic digesters if it was economically viable to pellet the likes of the digester?

Mr. Conor Mulvihill

Yes, in general. I made the point that these are nutrients that need to go back into the soil. If we put these nutrients into AD, we are losing P and K which are absolutely vital for soil health. We also run the risk of needing extra chemicals, which is going the opposite direction. Selfishly as an industry, we are looking to decarbonise. I refer to the dairy industry perspective. We have a huge challenge ourselves to get it down because we have to hit our targets to be credible to our farmers. Selfishly, we would love a biomethane industry based on slurry but we need circular economy nutrients for our land. We do not want to be caught in a catch-22 situation. Does Dr. McCarthy want to come in on that?

Dr. Sean McCarthy

We need to be careful that this does not distract from the conversation or the action that needs to happen around slurry storage on each individual farm. Each individual farm is unique in terms of soil type and in terms of the milking system they run into the winter. Each farm is unique and has unique risks regarding impacting water quality. We need to be careful that we do not distract from that and in terms of the feedstocks that need to be generated for the AD. If it is grass that is going into the AD, it has to be very high quality. Nutrients will be required to generate that feedstock. What we are seeing is that there will be more opportunity to improve nutrient management on farms. We need to get a lot better in terms of nutrient management before we expand our land area with focus on more nutrients to produce feedstocks for AD.

The other thing I want to comment on is the actions regarding the pool of money available to farmers. We should reflect on the ASSAP programme, the engagement we had with farmers and the opportunities that were identified in terms of actions that need to be taken on farm to minimise the risk of a negative impact on water quality. We are piloting the new EIP, which has a €50 million pool of money, in our catchment area with a group of farmers and we have had a very encouraging level of engagement. The process needs to be streamlined as quickly as possible. We need to make sure this money moves into these farmers' hands, so it can be spent wisely and appropriately under the guidance of our water quality specialist teams across the country. In respect of actions that we know can have a real impact relatively quickly, we need to make sure that happens.

I have one final question. Everyone is looking at the nitrogen part here. There is huge swathe of our country in trouble with phosphorus apparently. The reality is, I intend to keep following it for as long as I can, that a huge amount of sewage treatment plants are not functioning in this country and it is not the fault of the people living in those towns who do not have the treatment plants they deserve or require. What are the witnesses' thoughts on the phosphorus part, because a lot of farmers do not even understand it. If they do not have a nutrient management plan done, or if soil samples have not been taken, they could be put into the default position. A bag of 18-6-12 or something could put them in bother, especially in some of the schemes. It was said earlier that the water quality is being looked at and the Slaney was named as well as many other places where nitrogen problems would be talked about. Is the same being done on the phosphorus side in other parts of the country?

Mr. Conor Mulvihill

I might open quickly and then maybe we can go to Dr. McCarthy, Mr. Cronin or one of the experts. The Water European Innovation Project, EIP, for that is €50 million in farmers' pockets and then €10 million. The key thing about the Water EIP is that the actions we are taking are nearly all phosphorus based. We are hoping that will help address it. There will be rainwater management plans relating to what Deputy Fitzmaurice is talking about. A farmer will see where the phosphorus flows and will be paid for that in terms of the nutrient scores and things like that. Nitrogen is more difficult to deal with than actual phosphorus that we are finding or dealing with. Our advisers in Teagasc and the Local Authority Waters Programme, LAWPRO, feel that there are solutions for phosphorus once education and money is put in. Once a farmer gets the advice, it should not just be left there and that they should be paid to take the actions in terms of bunding and riparian margins.

Look at the current map of Ireland and at this famous map that has landed. I come from an area where there are no dairy cows and the most pristine river in Ireland is in it, but this new map has gone over it as if it is a black spot.

Mr. Conor Mulvihill

Is it phosphorus?

Yes, it is because of phosphorus. The way they are doing things is very unjust, but do the witnesses believe the phosphorus can be solved relatively simply?

Mr. Billy Cronin

As Mr. Mulvihill said, nitrogen flows easily through the soil. With phosphorus, it is primarily over-land flow. If over-land flow can be stopped or filtered going into the river, that will sort out the phosphorus. It is more visible. You can put in silt traps and so on. As Mr. Mulvihill stated, the EIP project is highly utilised for solving phosphorus.

I want to get back to a point in relation to data. Farmers need data to exact change. Every farmer has a carbon footprint today. A marginal abatement cost curve, MACC, has been developed, so that we can move with the science, implement and trust the science and reduce the carbon footprint. Everyone has a target for 2030. Dairygold has a target for 0.7 kg of CO2-----

Is it a problem for the witnesses or for farmers that when looking at the data, it is changing? At one time, in fairness to the Chair, we were going through the export of slurry. At one time the figure for the export of slurry was five but overnight it mysteriously came down to two point something. We got more accurate figures that were a bit higher than that and were in the threes. If there is not as much excrement coming out of an animal, there is not as much methane. The figures are changing a lot with the research we have done because, unfortunately, the EPA was just taking figures from other countries' research that maybe had been done with indoor systems, although I do not know. These inaccurate figures have affected our farmers. When building a house, the foundation needs to be right. There cannot be any doubt, unfortunately, whether it is the carbon budgets and all of that. There is nothing at all about sequestering and it is all about what goes up. We need to be fair.

What galls me is the kicking every day. I was on the television last night and we were debating this. People asked who was giving out. Look at the media every day. Even the farm media, there is always someone writing something and telling some story about a farmer and what he or she is doing wrong, what is going wrong or it is some bad news. I never see a good story. A lot of these people need to realise that we probably produce the best food in the world and we are a grass-based system. The fear I have is that if we keep welting at someone, they will get sick of it. People in a lot of places do not know what a turnip or a cabbage is, or even where the egg came out of. Someday they might see a shortage and might be glad of the farmer.

Mr. Billy Cronin

It is important to give farmers data because it establishes a baseline. As Mr. Ryan said earlier, nutrient surplus and nutrient scores will determine where the baseline is at farm level. The farmer can then take action. Without measurement, action cannot be taken and one is left with only a finger in the air. It is important that the farmer has information. Much like the carbon footprint, there is a journey that is travelled on and with five or six key simple actions at farm level, we will be able to reduce that. It is all about nutrient load.

Is work being done on phosphorus in areas? Am I correct in saying it is being done and it is not all being concentrated on two or three areas?

Mr. Conor Mulvihill

Yes.

That is good to hear. I thank the witnesses for their time.

I thank the witnesses for their comprehensive answers today. They have given us a lot of material to help us in putting a report together, which will hopefully play a constructive part in preserving our derogation status at 220 kg N/ha. The next public meeting of the committee will be on Wednesday, 12 June at 5.30 p.m.

The joint committee adjourned at 8.38 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 12 June 2024.
Top
Share