Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine debate -
Wednesday, 23 Oct 2024

Welfare, Treatment and Traceability of Horses: Discussion (Resumed)

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Apologies have been received from Deputy Cahill and Senator Paul Daly. Deputy Cronin is substituting for Deputy Kenny for this meeting.

I remind all members and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones. Members are requested to ensure that for the duration of the meeting their mobile phones are turned off completely, or switched to safe mode, whichever is appropriate on their device.

I will now read the message on privilege, which is appropriate to the members and the witnesses before us, and I bring their attention to the following. Witnesses giving evidence within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. Witnesses have full defence in any defamation action taken but they are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence as directed by the Chair. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard. They are reminded of the long-standing practice to the effect that, where it is reasonable, no commentary should be made identifying a third person or entity. Witnesses who are giving evidence outside the location of the parliamentary precincts are asked to note they do not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal prosecution as those witnesses giving evidence within the parliamentary precincts, and may consider taking appropriate advice on this matter. Privilege against defamatory action does not apply to publication by the witnesses outside the precincts or the committee, or any matter raised by these proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a third person outside these Houses or against an official by name or in such a way to identify them. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to the limits of the parliamentary precincts, online and in the committee meeting, and therefore members must respect that privilege. Members who are participating online outside the parliamentary precincts may not expect the same level of immunity.

We will now move on with the agenda, which is to resume our discussion on the welfare, treatment and traceability of horses. Before the committee we have representatives from My Lovely Horse Animal Rescue. I welcome Martina Kenny and her fellow co-founders. I invite Ms Kenny to introduce her colleagues and make her opening statement.

Ms Martina Kenny

I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the invitation to speak here today. My Lovely Horse Animal Rescue, MLHR, very much appreciates and welcomes the opportunity to engage with the committee on the areas of horse welfare, traceability and treatment of equines. I am joined by my colleague Maddie Doyle, who has been a volunteer with My Lovely Horse Animal Rescue for more than ten years in the areas of welfare and equine adoptions. My Lovely Horse Animal Rescue was set up in 2011 by me and co-founders Deborah Kenny and Cathy Davey. Since its initial beginnings, the charity has grown substantially over the past 13 years and we currently have more than 700 animals in our care, 300 of those being horses.

Every year MLHR rescues animals that are abandoned, seized by councils, transferred from pounds, seized by the Garda, seized by the Department of agriculture, and surrendered by owners who may be struggling and overwhelmed. In many cases these animals may have suffered some of the most harrowing neglect, abuse and starvation that require extensive rehabilitation and veterinary care. It is the view of My Lovely Horse Animal Rescue that every animal should be given every opportunity possible to make a full recovery with a view to placing that animal in a secure and safe home.

As an organisation we know that cruelty and neglect is not confined to just one community, one class or one discipline. We appreciate and understand the concerns over food safety traceability to the wider community and to our European neighbours but our concern, as My Lovely Horse Animal Rescue, lies with the protection of our nation's horses from suffering neglect and abuse. For the industries that profit from equines, there must be more investment in welfare and meaningful rehoming programmes and proper enforcement of the welfare legislation and the resources necessary to allow this to happen. We must move beyond the idea of slaughter as the convenient and most cost-effective way to address the issue of those unwanted horses.

If we are truly a nation of horse lovers, we must do better. We would like to see changes in the following areas, including continued placement of animal welfare under the purview of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. My Lovely Horse Rescue would like to see the establishment of a dedicated authority separate from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine that oversees welfare and enforcement of the welfare legislation. The primary mission of the Department of agriculture is to enhance agricultural productivity, support farmers and ensure food security - in short, trade. While these goals are essential, they can sometimes conflict with the equally important need for humane treatment of animals. Practices like factory farming and intensive confinement are often justified in terms of efficiency but can have detrimental effects on animal welfare. Establishing a separate entity dedicated solely to animal welfare could significantly enhance how we address the evolving needs of animal protection.

The Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine currently does not have a dedicated representative for animal welfare, a role that could provide valuable insights, especially as we navigate the evolving landscape of ethical treatment in animal agriculture. Recent meetings have highlighted how industry perspectives are well covered, but the absence of a voice focused on animal welfare means certain critical issues might not receive the attention they deserve. Having an expert in animal welfare on the committee would ensure discussions and decisions are more comprehensive, reflecting the highest standards of ethical treatment. As public interest in humane practices continues to grow, it is increasingly important our policies align with these expectations. We encourage the members to consider updating the committee's terms of reference to include an animal welfare representative.

We would call for a Garda animal cruelty crime unit. Animal cruelty investigation is diverse, risky and challenging work that we believe should be undertaken by experts. We believe An Garda Síochána should play a key part in animal cruelty cases. Currently, members of An Garda Síochána on the normal regular units do not have the time available or the resources, or sometimes do not prioritise animal welfare crimes. There are, however, clear reasons for the experts in law enforcement to be led in animal cruelty prosecutions. This is why we believe the creation of a dedicated animal crime unit within An Garda Síochána is well overdue. The time is now to build an effective, accountable, well co-ordinated, and properly resourced model for animal welfare. Assigning an animal crime unit as the first responder for serious animal welfare investigations should maximise resource efficiency and lessen demands on the Garda. This unit would also be available to travel, assist and advise their colleagues in other counties to bring forth more successful animal welfare prosecutions.

Our experience on the ground tells us that the same issues persist when it comes to identification and traceability of horses as well as welfare. The "RTÉ Investigates" programme that aired in June of this year left many of us disturbed and utterly horrified. The treatment of horses at Shannonside Foods in Kildare was horrific. It is perhaps even more disturbing that much of what was contained in the undercover piece is not necessarily new information. Traceability issues are ongoing. We all remember the horse meat scandal of 2013. "Panorama" aired a piece in 2021 covering some of the same issues RTÉ covered.

My Lovely Horse Animal Rescue would suggest changes to the following areas when it comes to identification and traceability. While we very much welcome to development of e-passports and the difference this will make to the identification, tracking and monitoring of equine health and welfare, we remain very concerned about the insertion of additional chips. Our experience with animals taken into our care is that they often present with multiple chips, sometimes with up to three of them. Change of ownership is an ongoing issue, with low compliance in this area. Our experience shows that oftentimes horses are registered to breeders, even as older animals that have changed hands multiple times or that are registered to an owner at one time but not a current owner. With the onus on buyers to complete the change of ownership papers, it appears that many neglect to do so. Change of ownership should be the responsibility of the previous owner and this is not the case. It causes huge problems and especially in the areas of securing prosecutions in cruelty cases.

We need a centralised European database for equine ID. In Ireland horses are bred and raised for sport and leisure. We do not see or treat horses as food. As such My Lovely Horse Animal Rescue does not believe Irish horses are suitable for the human food chain. It is for this reason, as RTÉ clearly uncovered, there is a huge financial gain to laundering their identities, a laundering of identities that was taking place not just at Shannonside Foods but also at facilities in Europe.

We believe there is a need for tighter controls and for more detailed inspections of horses leaving Ireland, with consideration also given to our Border with Northern Ireland in this regard.

My Lovely Horse Animal Rescue believes the way forward must be to eliminate conflicts of interest, strengthen our commitment to the humane and compassionate treatment of animals and improve oversight. Aligning with public values and ensuring that every animal is treated with respect and kindness would position Ireland as a leader in ethical animal care and welfare.

Deputy Réada Cronin

I am substituting for Deputy Martin Kenny. I welcome Ms Kenny, Ms Doyle and Mr. Cullen and thank them for the important work they do. I follow their group online. I have met them outside the Dáil, outside the Department of agriculture and outside Shannonside Foods in Straffan. I thank them for the work they have done. Some of the cases they deal with are absolutely harrowing. We all saw what was brought to public attention in the "RTÉ Investigates" programme on Shannonside Foods. It was absolutely horrific. I have number of questions. What are the running costs every year of My Lovely Horse Animal Rescue? How much Government funding does it receive? What interaction does it have with the Garda and other State agencies in the context of their seeking its help? I have seen figures of €25,000 in funding but the running costs are more than €500,000. Have things improved?

Ms Martina Kenny

Not really. Our funding from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine was €54,000 in 2023. Our spend this year was just over €1 million. We rely mainly on the public and some councils.

We help the Garda. Instead of the Garda having to take on the cost when a case comes in, we take it on. We get all of the vet reports and dentist reports and everything the Garda needs for prosecutions. This is for horses mainly but also for dogs. We hold the horses involved and sometimes it can be for up to three years. We pay for everything because we want prosecutions.

Deputy Réada Cronin

The funding is approximately €54,000 and the spend is €1 million. This is a big difference to make up. Ms Kenny mentioned the need for proper enforcement of animal welfare legislation and the resources necessary to allow this to happen. What are the main challenges the witnesses face when working with An Garda Síochána on animal cruelty cases? Where does the Department fall down when it comes to enforcement?

Ms Maddie Doyle

With regard to trying to secure a prosecution in a cruelty case, the biggest obstacle is proving ownership and linking the animal to an owner. This is where traceability and the passport come in. What often happens if animals are registered is that the owners will say they sold the horse two years ago and do not own it anymore. More often than not, the animal is just not registered at all. No microchip is present, which means there is no passport. If an animal is on private land we can go looking for a landowner and maybe make an assumption, or start by saying if it is on this piece of land which is owned by this person it is potentially the same person who owns the horse. If an unregistered animal is found on public lands or a public road, there is no way to link it to an owner.

Deputy Réada Cronin

Ms Kenny also said that earlier, and it shows the lack of enforcement. If it was important that ownership had to be transferred, owners would definitely want to make sure it happened because they would not want to be prosecuted.

Unfortunately a vote has been called in the Dáil. I am going to have to leave the meeting.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We can pick up on Deputy Cronin's questions when she returns. I will ask some questions now.

I have a question on the centralised European database required for horses. At times, I look at this with amusement when we consider what happens in the bovine industry. In 1996 we managed to put in place a traceability scheme in a matter of a few short months. We managed to make sure every bovine in Ireland was tagged appropriately. We now have traceability all the way back to 1996. How and why have we failed with other animals? We are not going to reinvent the wheel. We know this model works and we have seen how it works. A bovine animal must be registered within 28 days of being born. This is the law. If not, the Department of agriculture will be out. If the animal is moved from one herd to another the registration must be transferred. I am perturbed by the lack of movement regarding the potential for a database. I do not understand the nuance as to why it has not happened. Could the witnesses inform me as to why it has not happened? Where are the roadblocks?

Ms Maddie Doyle

We are probably in a similar situation to the Leas-Chathaoirleach as we are also wondering why it has not happened. If we were to look at the difference between horses and bovines and any other farm animal, we rear horses in Ireland for sport and leisure and not for food. Generally, horses tend to live for up to 30 years. It depends on the type of horse. They can live beyond that age. During the course of their lives, they could potentially change hands many times, depending on their purpose and whether they are sport horses, racehorses, leisure horses or event horses. There seems to be some resistance. They live so long and move so often that the idea persists that the amount of trouble we would have to go to in order to track all of the movements over all of the years insurmountable.

We do not understand why the legislation on change of ownership is not enforced. With regard to passports, it is illegal to have a horse and not have a passport for it but our experience in rescue is that the majority of animals we take in are not registered. They do not have a microchip and they have never had a passport. This is illegal. Technically under the legislation these animals can be seized.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

A bovine farmer would be prosecuted by the Department if the animals were not tagged and had not gone through the correct process. For the death of an animal, there is the knackery. All of these issues are very well thought out. We are not going to reinvent the wheel. The process regarding the movement of animals seems to work flawlessly for bovines. It is bizarre, to say the least, that this has not been sorted.

Ms Martina Kenny

It is bizarre.

Ms Maddie Doyle

In terms of horses it is completely absent, even regarding change of ownership. When we are trying to secure a cruelty case or if we pick up an animal and try to trace an owner and the microchip is present, often if we are lucky enough to find an owner we get the old response that the person sold the horse. When we ask when the animal was sold we are told it was three or four years ago. We have come across sport horses and racehorses at 15 and 16 years old that are still registered to the person who bred them.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

If we look at how things are done for bovines we know what Ms Doyle has described does not work. There is one central database for bovines, which is held by the Department. We do not have this when it comes to the horse industry. There are multiple passports.

Ms Maddie Doyle

There are multiple passport agencies depending on the horse. Weatherbys looks after all the thoroughbred racehorses. There is an agency for Connemara ponies and there are also Horse Sport Ireland and Leisure Horse Ireland. There are also passport agencies based in the North.

At times they are not all linked up.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Would Ms Doyle believe the need for one passport agency is a priority regarding traceability of the animals?

Ms Maddie Doyle

It could be but I imagine there could be a lot of resistance to that because of breeds, breeding, bloodlines and protecting certain sectors.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

When we look at the bovine industry, they have many breeds. They collect them and manage them all the way through from Shorthorns to Herefords and Friesians and they do an excellent job regarding controlling, monitoring and understanding the different breeds. The database is very important. One entity having control of the database would be controversial but appropriate in the sense that we would have traceability all the way through.

Ms Maddie Doyle

I agree and in respect of the change of ownership, the fact is that animals can be routinely passed on, sold on and moved and yet there is no enforcement of the change of ownership. With the bovines a person has seven days and if he or she does not record them, it is an offence.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

On the second point Ms Doyle made about the Committee of Agriculture, Food and the Marine having a welfare representative on the committee, the committee is made up of Members of the Oireachtas. It has Dáil and Seanad representatives. It has no external members of the Oireachtas. I am open to correction but I believe that is how it is set up in the Constitution to be put in place. I wonder how we could work with that kind of proposal. A constitutional amendment potentially would be required. How practical would that be? What issues would there be?

Ms Martina Kenny

I would love to see it. If a constitutional amendment is required then that is the way it has to go. Something has to be done. It has gone too far. We saw - as did everybody - what happened at Shannonside. We need somebody who may not even be within the Department but outside of it. It should be somebody from outside of it who makes sure that everything is done with regard to welfare. Other countries do it, why can we not?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Unfortunately we have to suspend until the rest of our other colleagues come back.

Sitting suspended at 6.02 p.m. and resumed at 6.28 p.m.

Deputy Réada Cronin

I was saying it really highlights the fact it is not enforcement that shows they do not care about making sure they transfer the ownership. That tells its own story. A centralised ID system for horses across the EU was mentioned. That is something our party would support. Will the witnesses expand on that and tell us what practical supports they believe would be needed to get that off the ground?

Ms Maddie Doyle

There are databases here and in different countries in Europe. The biggest problem is dealing with so many passport agencies that are either breed-specific or look after non-recorded breeding in groups of horses. It would definitely be challenging, but there are centralised databases for other animals such as bovines and other animals. Centralised databases already exist. I would not necessarily be familiar with them because I do not operate in that arena, but I am sure, rather than reinventing the wheel, there are pointers to be taken from what exists already and applying it to the equine sector. Obviously, bovines are bred and reared for different reasons.

In terms of longevity, they do not live as long as a horse. I do not know how often they change hands or locations relative to a horse, which might introduce other, unique challenges when it comes to tracing and tracking horses. A horse can live into their 20s or 30s; which is a long time to keep track of the movements of a particular animal. The bigger traceability issues are in relation to bigger equine producers.

It is one thing for a family to have two or three horses. Obviously, they need to comply with the legislation in terms of ID and movements, but the bigger issues with traceability come from within the elite sector. Within racing, the IHRB, and HRI, have governance responsibilities for and oversight of licensed premises in respect of horses in training and horses that are racing. Before training and racing and after training and racing, who has oversight of the tracking and tracing of those animals? That is a big problem.

Deputy Réada Cronin

Legislation on carriage horses was not mentioned in the opening statement but it has been something referred to and talked about in the media a lot. Local authorities and county councils do not have any power in that area. Does Ms Doyle want to make a statement on that?

Ms Maddie Doyle

The carriage horse Act dates back to 1853, which is quite a long time ago. As a result of that, Dublin City Council and other local authorities currently do not have any powers to regulate or license carriage operators and horse-drawn carriages. As a rescue working on the ground, we know from the calls we receive there have been and still remain big welfare and safety concerns around the carriages that are operating within the Dublin city area.

We know councils and the Garda have taken steps to either withdraw carriages that are deemed unsafe or seize animals that seem to be welfare compromised. The councils cannot do anything under any legislation at the moment. They have no power at all. It seems absolutely ludicrous that we are relying on legislation that dates back to 1853.

Deputy Réada Cronin

Which was before the State was founded.

Ms Martina Kenny

On that, we have done a lot of work with carriage horses and Dublin City Council on it. We have also asked many times and before we came here we spoke about the carriage horses. There are men who have been working on carriage horses for a long time and they want it regulated. They ask can we please regulate this. I always ask and we all ask, are we waiting for somebody to die? Are we waiting for a tourist to die?

Sometimes, some of those carriages are not in any way roadworthy and the horses are young and weak. It is wrong on so many levels. For the good guys, it should literally be a licence plate, just like a car, on each carriage so it can be identified.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Ms Kenny said My Lovely Horse Animal Rescue has 700 animals and approximately 300 horses. Is it increasing on an annual basis and is My Lovely Horse Animal Rescue overwhelmed by it? What is the main cause for the abandonment of a horse by a person? Is there a running theme?

Ms Maddie Doyle

When we looked at the figures, there has been an increase in the number of horses coming in over the last three years. Obviously, the number of other animals has increased as well but we are here today to talk about horses. We have seen an increase in the numbers over the last three years.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Is it demographic? Is it from a particular region or area or is it all over?

Ms Maddie Doyle

Just because of where My Lovely Horse Animal Rescue is based, we generally tend to receive and respond to calls within the Dublin area and the surrounding counties. We have a representative from Cork as well who deals with Cork, Waterford and Limerick. There are large numbers of calls that come from urban areas on straying horses and horses on council land and they are often in severe states of neglect and starvation. That could be from a lack of feeding, lack of worming, lack of veterinary care or injuries that have not received any treatment from a vet. A lot of the calls come from urban areas.

Ms Martina Kenny

The horse pound also deals a lot with urban areas. They take a lot of the horses out of where they are and we take them from the pound, when we can. We are overwhelmed - we are always overwhelmed - but we try our very best to save, rehabilitate and rehome as many as we can.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

For the public looking in, how much does it cost to put a horse up, look after him and cover veterinary bills and all that?

Ms Martina Kenny

It really depends, but if a horse-----

Deputy Johnny Mythen

What is the average?

Ms Martina Kenny

It could be from €2,000 to €20,000 depending on what is wrong with that horse, yes.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

That is for one animal?

Ms Martina Kenny

Yes.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Obviously I ask a rhetorical question here but Ms Kenny said the organisation received only €54,000 from the Department. It seems to be minuscule compared with a million euro, which is what My Lovely Horse Rescue spends.

Ms Martina Kenny

We received that in 2023 and it is small compared to what we spend. We are a huge rescue and we do what it says on the tin. We also work with the Garda. We deliver a lot of education. We try to do as much as we can but our main goal is to hopefully change people's ways as well.

We do not receive enough funding, without a doubt, but we rely on the public because we were once the public ourselves and were very concerned about horses and other animals.

Ms Maddie Doyle

If the Deputy does not mind, I will finish Ms Kenny's point. There is an aspect of horse rescue that does not apply to dogs and cats in terms of the potential to rehome them. Horses live longer and often people are not in a position to adopt a horse until that horse is ready to be ridden, for example. That is the expectation when people adopt a horse. If you have a lot of young horses coming in like foals or pregnant mares come in and those foals are born in the care of the rescue, you will have to keep those animals for at least three to four years before you will be able to rehome.

That is a logistical difference with horses and rescuing them and keeping them maintained and looked after that does not exist with other types of animals there are in rescue such as a dog.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Could Ms Doyle explain how a horse can be tagged three times? What is the position on that or how is that happening?

Ms Maddie Doyle

We had experience with a pound operator a number of years ago when animals were seized by that pound. It is not the current or previous operator, this is just to give an idea. The chips that were inserted into those animals when they were seized by that operator were not actually compliant with Department of agriculture rules on approved microchips. They inserted those chips in the animal as a way of recording the intake and that the animal had come in. They were tagged and there was now a number on a document to record that animal.

When it came to passporting that animal, however, that chip was not approved. If we took animals from that contractor and rescued them from that pound, we would have to insert a second microchip to get that animal a passport and that animal now has two chips. That is one example of how they end up with multiple chips.

Ms Martina Kenny

Sometimes it is also as a result of not checking for the first chip and just inserting a second one.

Ms Maddie Doyle

The rule for a vet is, before inserting a chip into an animal, to scan first to check for the presence of an existing chip. It does not always happen. They just put a chip in without checking if there is one already present.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

I suggest, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, that based on suggestions from people here that we write to the Minister and ask him to put an animal welfare representative on the committee. Maybe the Leas-Chathaoirleach could qualify that himself.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am open to taking the committee's view on this. Constitutionally, we might have to see about the membership of the committee. It is made up of Oireachtas Members from both the Dáil and the Seanad. We would have to modify that to have an outside representative on it. We will ask for advice from the clerk, Mr. Christy Haughton, when he is back and we can move on from there. Is that appropriate?

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Yes, I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach.

The witnesses mentioned setting up a Garda unit on this. Have they looked at other countries where this exists and models that have worked?

Ms Martina Kenny

Yes. Five or six years ago, we went to Amsterdam where there is an animal crime unit that has worked really well. France and Germany also have them now. We got to speak with the unit in Holland. It only had four officers, but they were able to tell other officers around the country what to do and how to do it. That is exactly what we need. We have gardaí who help all the time and we put them in touch with other gardaí who would not have a clue how to do an animal prosecution. All we are asking for is a pilot scheme of three gardaí who know the animal legislation and want prosecutions to start this off. It would save a lot of time and energy. It would definitely be great to have a lot more prosecutions because that is what makes people sit up and listen. They realise they will be prosecuted if they do this.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

That is fine. I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy. Deputy Fitzmaurice, I acknowledge your presence here tonight and also sympathise with you on the death of your niece.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Thanks.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is a very tough time for you and your family. It is great to have you here with us.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Thanks Vice Chair.

The witnesses are welcome. The committee need to be honest with them on this. If we had an expert in animal welfare, we would be obliged then to have experts in all different things. What the committee has the flexibility to do is bring in experts like the witnesses who have been invited today or to bring in experts who would know the ins and outs of it to give all the committee members the information they require. That is how it would have to be done. We would not be allowed as a committee to have an individual person. That is my understanding, but I am open to correction. I do not have any problem with anybody giving us advice on welfare, but that is the way it should work.

I noted the witnesses' submission said we need to get away from this idea of slaughtering horses. Are they saying no horse should be slaughtered at all? If every horse in the country lived to a ripe old age, we would have an awful lot of them around. Will they give me a bit of insight on that please? I am trying to understand the statement.

Ms Maddie Doyle

We were trying to say that Shannonside existed for the slaughter of horses for human consumption and we saw what was uncovered there regarding the laundering of identities. That laundering of identities is only happening because the horses are not fit for human consumption. If they were fit for human consumption, there would not be any need to launder their identities. That is how we feel about that. Some 70% of the animals that went through Shannonside were thoroughbreds, so they were coming from a certain sector and a certain industry. Our feeling is there needs to be better provision within that industry that tackles injured horses, older horses or horses that are not deemed big enough or fast enough for the track. Surely there is enough money within the industry, given how profitable and successful it is, to make provision for an end-of-life care that does not involve slaughter. There were a lot of horses in Shannonside whose owners could have offered a better end than standing in the kill box at the plant. As for the damage the investigation programme did to the industry and the optics there, the repercussions are probably going to be felt for quite a while. A man called Gerard Hussey is working on a proposal for an extensive re-homing programme for the racing industry. He was worked in the industry for 25 years and has some very good ideas about how it could manage a re-homing programme and how that would interact with trainers and owners. As part of that he is also looking at proposals on the welfare and re-homing of brood mares and looking again at stallions and their welfare and long-term prospects.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

What sort of funding does the charity get? I missed that.

Ms Maddie Doyle

Last year there was €54,063. Is that it?

Ms Martina Kenny

Yes.

Ms Maddie Doyle

Right.

Ms Martina Kenny

And our spend was more than €1 million.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

I beg Ms Kenny's pardon.

Ms Martina Kenny

Our spend last year on our accounts was more than €1 million.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Is the rest got through fundraising?

Ms Martina Kenny

Yes, through public fundraising. A small part is through Dublin City Council and Kilkenny County Council where we help with horses and horse programmes. It is mainly from companies and the public.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

I assume the witnesses get paid as staff.

Ms Martina Kenny

I am paid, though not very much. We have 13 staff, but they are dedicated to animals more than money.

Ms Maddie Doyle

I am a volunteer, for my sins.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Maybe it has changed, but I understood if there was a problem with welfare councils have a vet or a person on animal welfare and the councils were involved in basically rounding up horses.

Ms Maddie Doyle

In our experience, stray horses on the road tend to be a priority in terms of the funds councils have allocated to them every year to manage stray horses. Any horses on the road obviously are a priority, but there are situations where horses are left on council land that might be secure and they would not necessarily be tackled immediately because they are not posing an immediate danger of causing a traffic accident.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

I will ask whether the witnesses agree with my analysis. Let us say I have a herd number for cattle or sheep. Before I get that, I must have a cattle crush and a proper shed. Is the same thing being applied in the horse industry? There are some places where I wonder whether they have the facilities at all for handling a horse.

Ms Maddie Doyle

With the equine premises numbers people have to apply for from the Department, the feedback we get is some people would have an inspection before that number is issued and other people might not. It seems to vary depending on the part of the country.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Would it be a good idea to have a check? The witnesses were saying welfare needs to be taken away from the Department of agriculture, but in fairness to the Department, with cattle, sheep and all that, it has regular inspections for different reasons for different schemes. It might be worth liaising with it to see whether this could be checked up on. There is no point in someone who has not the right type of land, a proper shed and a bit of a yard having animals. If someone has not those few facilities there is not point in talking about having any type of animal.

Ms Martina Kenny

The problem is the urban horses. The Deputy was asking about the councils. They have to put a lot of urban horses in the pound because they are on council land and on housing estates. Those people definitely do not have, and would not be applying for, an EPN.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Can people just buy a horse?

Ms Martina Kenny

They can buy a horse tomorrow for €10.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

They do not need an equine number.

Ms Martina Kenny

If they buy a horse off somebody, he or she is not going to ask whether they have an equine number. He or she is not even going to say-----

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

There is a bit of a difference going on here. This is about traceability.

Ms Martina Kenny

Yes, but this is-----

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

With livestock, if a farmer buys an animal off some other farmer, within three minutes it is all changed over. Everyone knows where it is.

Ms Martina Kenny

That is great, and we wish it could be like that with horses, but it is definitely not.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

There is no reason it should not.

Ms Martina Kenny

It is not-----

Mr. Eoin Cullen

I am sorry; I will add something to that comment. One of the main problems, especially in urban areas, is the indiscriminate breeding of horses. Two guys might put in ten horses, predominantly mares, and another guy might put a stallion in and then within a week or two all those mares are pregnant. They are being sold by these lads left, right and centre.

Nobody really knows how to enforce the legislation. We try to bring a lot of education to new recruits in An Garda Síochána because the legislation is not taught enough in Templemore. The legislation is there, but the knowledge of how to enforce it is fairly weak. That is where the main problem is. That is why guys have horses in back gardens and alleyways. Indeed, some of these do have equine premises numbers, EPNs, where-----

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

How do we solve that? How do we get that education out there?

Mr. Eoin Cullen

One of the things is to improve education on the legislation within An Garda Síochána training in Templemore and also, as my colleagues mentioned, having a dedicated animal welfare unit within the Garda. That would be a huge advantage in being able to address the lack of enforcement of the legislation.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

I thank the witnesses very much for all their information.

Deputy Réada Cronin

The last time I attended this committee, the breeders and racecourse owners were before us. I spoke to them about a national retirement fund, and I know this group has also spoken to them about a retirement fund for thoroughbreds. Has My Lovely Horse Animal Rescue had any response from the racing industry or Minister around that?

Ms Martina Kenny

No, we have really been talking more to Mr. Hussey.

Ms Maddie Doyle

The Deputy might have met the person we have been communicating with at Shannonside. We have communicated with Mr. Gerard Hussey a lot. He has been working within the industry for the past 25 years and he has a lot of experience in training horses. He is currently operating a re-homing programme for thoroughbreds. He has a really great proposal, which I am almost sure he has submitted this to HRI and the IHRB, but I do not know if he has received a response.

Deputy Réada Cronin

Would Ms Doyle mind letting me know if he has received a response?

Ms Martina Kenny

Yes. I can send the Deputy his proposal as well. He does not go into his proposals with regard to broodmares in the copy I have here. There has to be something that addresses overbreeding because there is definitely an overbreeding problem as well, which contributes to the problem of unwanted horses and where they all go. There are some statistics on how many foals are born every year and how many horses go unaccounted for. Thousands of horses just disappear, and nobody knows where they have gone. Now, if we were watching RTÉ, we can imagine that maybe some of them have had new chips put into them with other numbers and been matched up with a surplus passport and they disappear that way. Thousands of equines are disappearing every year, however, and we do not know where they are going.

Deputy Réada Cronin

Something I was working on after the "RTÉ Investigates" programme into Shannonside Foods Ltd. was a register on animal abusers and people who have been found guilty. The Minister was not keen on it because he said they were reported on in the media and that was enough. It is, however, not something we can rely on. I was heartened by the number of rural TDs, not just urban, who were encouraging me around that. At the moment, the embryo of the Bill is with the Oireachtas Library and Research Service, and it is not likely to be published before a general election is called. It is, however, something I will work on. Even if I do not come back, I will find somebody to pick it up and work on it for me.

The witnesses spoke about the structure of a dedicated animal crime unit in An Garda Síochána, which I might be able to tie in with my Bill as well. How does Ms Kenny envision its structure and the responsibilities it would have? If Mr. Cullen wants to come in as well, he should feel free to do so.

Ms Martina Kenny

We have many gardaí on board with My Lovely Horse Animal Rescue. Some of our volunteers are gardaí. We work with the mounted unit gardaí around Dublin city and Kilkenny, and an awful lot of them want this as well. We would see three to four gardaí literally dedicated to animal crime, which they will be so busy with because there is so much of it going on. However, the main issue is that there are not enough gardaí who will prosecute. Therefore, these dedicated gardaí could help those gardaí prosecute and teach them the legislation. They can be there at the courts and do different things. They are also gardaí that other people and the likes of us can talk to rather than ringing around different stations trying to get the garda who has the want for it and has the time to deal with it. We all know our gardaí are out-the-door busy. Ireland is a crazy place sometimes. We really do need a structure where we have a certain number of gardaí who are just dedicated to animal welfare. It is needed. As I said, we have been to other countries that have done it, and it is a huge success. I just do not see why Ireland cannot do it.

Deputy Réada Cronin

Is there any contact between the gardaí who are working with My Lovely Horse Animal Rescue as volunteers? Has there been any communication with other states around how they set that up?

Ms Martina Kenny

They set it up just like that. The powers that be in the police thought this was a great idea. They started off in Amsterdam with just one guy and now they have a few. They go all around Holland teaching other officers what to do and how to do it. They are contactable by telephone, email or whatever and every time somebody needs something to do with it, they decide that it could be a really good prosecution and start it off. It is really good, and it is exactly what we need because prosecutions are key. If we have more prosecutions, at least then it will deter some of the crimes out there against animals.

Ms Maddie Doyle

The gathering of evidence for an animal cruelty prosecution is very different. We are potentially dealing with a live animal or a dead animal. It is a different crime scene relative to a burglary, theft, murder or any other crime. Sometimes, that is where gardaí struggle in terms of the skills they need to put a case together with regard to an animal cruelty prosecution. That is where a dedicated unit would be available to assist and advise them on that.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy. We have no other contributions. I thank the witnesses for their time. I apologise for democracy and the votes and everything else interrupting the meeting. It was very informative to say the very least. I thank everyone for their contributions today. The next public meeting will be a select committee meeting on Tuesday, 5 November at 2.30 p.m.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.59 p.m. sine die.