This joint meeting of the Joint Committee on Arts, Sport, Tourism, Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and the Joint Committee on Education and Science is to progress a vital and basic aspect of the holistic development of a child. This is a fundamental aspect of the educational development of any child, not only the musically gifted child. Before Music Network makes its presentation, I ask the Chairman of the Joint Committee on Education and Science, Deputy Killeen, to comment.
Music Education: Presentation.
On behalf of the Joint Committee on Education and Science, I thank the Chairman, Deputy Keaveney and the Joint Committee on Arts, Sport, Tourism, Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs for inviting us to participate in this meeting. As she said, music education is extremely important. It has featured on a few occasions at our meetings and, sadly, I think the members would agree that the results of our deliberations have not always been as fruitful as we would have wished. However, it is certainly an issue in which the members have expressed a huge level of interest and we are delighted to get an opportunity to hear from Music Network.
I welcome Ms Deirdre McCrea, chief executive officer of Music Network, and Mr. Martin Drury, the chairman of the advisory group. To follow procedure, I remind the delegation that while members are covered by privilege, those coming before the committee do not share the same protection of privilege. I ask Music Network to make a presentation for between 15 and 20 minutes and then we will open the meeting to questions from the floor and give Music Network a chance to respond.
Mr. Martin Drury
I thank the committee for agreeing to meet with us and for giving us this opportunity. Ms McCrea will explain that in order to do this work, an advisory committee was set up. My role was as chairman of that advisory group.
I was an independent person in so far as most of the members of the committee were people with particular expertise in music and in music education. My background is in arts education generally. I have been working in that field for more than 25 years in a range of sectors but if I had to pin my colours to a mast, it would be to the mast of theatre rather than music. However, I think it was a deliberate decision to have someone with that degree of objectivity. I will talk later about some of the details of the report, but we thought it would be useful if Ms McCrea, as chief executive officer of Music Network, told the committee a little about the organisation and its role in Irish society, and where this report came from.
Ms Deirdre McCrea
Music Network was established in 1986 by the Arts Council. We are the national music development organisation. Although established by the Arts Council, we operate as an independent organisation, but we still receive the bulk of our funding from the Arts Council.
The organisation's aim is to make high quality live music experiences accessible to everyone in Ireland and in order to achieve this, we work to provide a range of national music services. These services range from the provision of heavily subsidised professional music concerts at local level to a comprehensive information service on music in Ireland and participative programmes in health care and education environments. The way that we, as a national body, seek to deliver our remit is to work in partnership with both regionally and locally based organisations. That is us in a nutshell.
I will explain how the report came about. In May 2001, Deputy de Valera, the former Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, commissioned Music Network to undertake this research with a view to recommending a model for a national system of publicly supported and locally delivered music education services. Matching funding was subsequently secured from the Department of Education and Science for the study.
The terms of reference of the feasibility study were to recommend to Government a model for the systematic provision of an instrumental and vocal music education service, which would be locally accessible, high quality, publicly subsidised, appropriate to the cultural context in Ireland and complementary to existing music provision within the formal education system. The methodology we employed in structuring the report was to form an expert advisory group, of which Mr. Drury was chairperson, which also drew upon the expertise of a range of music education practitioners as well as representatives from both the Departments of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands and Education and Science and the Arts Council.
The expert committee met on a regular basis between December 2001 and December 2002 and had on ongoing input into the development of the proposed model. Parallel research and consultation phases also informed the production of the report. We consulted 220 parties within Ireland and internationally through a range of methodologies, such as questionnaires, face to face meetings, field trips, etc. We also undertook, as part of our research process, to read many relevant reports that had been produced in the area in the past and we undertook a substantive audit of existing music education practice within Ireland. That is the background to the report and I will hand over to Mr. Drury who will explain its recommendations and what the proposed model involves.
Mr. Drury
A notion of citizenship and a notion that music and music education are key components of what makes human beings what they are underpin and drive this report. There is also an issue of equity. Music education is done well in certain parts of the country and if one belongs to a certain socio-economic background. However, at the beginning of the 21st century, it was appropriate for a modern European state to do better than doing it on a patchy basis geographically or on an inequitable basis from a socio-economic point of view. This report is comfortable with the fact that the committee's full remit in arts and sports goes into community and rural affairs and we welcome the joint session.
I have been in this field for 25 years and one of the problems relating to the arts education agenda is it falls lamentably very often at a structural level between Government Departments. The Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism and the Arts Council are comfortable with public service arts provision, as in concert halls, theatres, galleries and all that agenda, while the Department of Education and Science is comfortable with formal school provision at first, second and third level. However, an issue such as this is very often conveniently allowed to fall between two stools.
Instead of this, the report is trying to bring the two stools together to make a bench and to say this is the beginning. We are pretty uncompromising in saying this is not diagnostic. Much of the diagnosis has been done before. Several excellent reports over the years, with which the committee may be familiar, have diagnosed the problem. The Minister and the Department asked us to begin a process of prescription. Very often when one is preparing these reports, one puts up one's hand in a slightly embarrassed way and says, "we do not want to be prescriptive." We were invited to be prescriptive and we have tried to be. It is not the final word and we acknowledge there will be an implementation phase and detailed technical work to deliver the report that is beyond our competence.
We have looked hard at home and abroad and we have spoken to the people who have walked the walk in their particular domains and we have tried to present a model we think will work at a national level. I will try to capture the model in one or two images. It is a twin engine model, a national service with twin engines. One engine is about providing support, particularly for primary school teachers who are charged with a wide curriculum. Primary and secondary school music teachers deserve support through workshops, resources and projects to make them more competent in this area.
The committee may know from INTO studies, that one of the issues relating to the arts and music, in particular, is that primary school teachers display honest goodwill but they do not feel confident or competent. Their training does not equip them and, therefore, like many of us, we do not do well what we do not feel comfortable with and it becomes a self-perpetuating problem. This engine of our recommendation is about putting in place a service, which in conjunction with local education centres that have been developed, will operate at local and regional level to better equip and make more confident our primary school teachers and also support secondary school music teachers. That engine is directed at the formal music curriculum.
However, there are limits to the experience of music. Just as there are children interested in gymnastics, horse racing, swimming or football, there are also children who will develop a competence or interest in playing the accordion, fiddle, trumpet or whatever. We need to help them. Anecdotally, I know of many children who are put on a train in Athenry bound for Dublin and their music education involves enormous parental and personal sacrifice. That signals to them and their peers that music is something that happens in Dublin or Cork and their is a division between their musical selves and their other selves.
A service needs to be provided at local and regional level. The second engine is providing vocal and instrumental music tuition at local and regional level. We spent a fair amount of time looking at the structures that would be needed to deliver this. Something is needed at national level in terms of accreditation and being able to assure ourselves and the Department of Education and Science that there is quality control and professional delivery of the service. There is a recommendation that a national music education council should be established with macro-management responsibilities.
The key to the report in many ways is local delivery. We suggest the setting up of local music education service boards, which would tune into the county development plans with reference to better local government and the thinking surrounding local authority plans. Originally, we examined vocational education committees as the structure because of their historical relationship with the delivery of education at local level but also because of their schools and administrative expertise. They will be key players but we moved the lens back one step from the vocational education committees and, instead, suggested that, while they would be key partners together with the education centres, they would also link with the local authority arts officer so that a service board would be put in place at local level that would use all those assets to deliver a service to local young people. However, it is almost important in an age of lifelong learning to note that while our notion of education strongly favours young people in the area of music, it is not exclusively about them and includes various possibilities in the community. There is a national structure and a local and regional structure.
If committee members become acquainted with the detail of the report, they will see that considerable attention is given to the nature of the music. Clearly, in the type of world in which we live, it is appropriate that the curriculum pays due attention to traditional music, especially in those parts of the country where it is part of the life blood of a community. Equally, the curriculum needs to have the appropriate breadth and balance according to local circumstance and need. While the system is designed with quality control at macro level, it is intended that what might happen in Offaly would be distinct from what might happen in Wexford according to local circumstances, strengths and weaknesses.
It is important to say that the report was commissioned at a time of economic sunshine but was published at a time of greyer clouds. This is potentially a ten to 15 year strategy. It is not a "pull a switch" or a quick fix solution. It is important in terms of democracy, music and education generally and we need to begin the process of implementation. Economic times not being as good as they once were is not really an excuse. In the 1970s and 1980s, when economic times were not good, little was done about music education. In the 1990s, when times were much better, nothing was done about it. Clearly, it is amatter of political will rather than economic availability.
We believe there is a way in which the implications of this report can be rolled out if a ten to 15 year perspective is taken. In the structure of the report we suggest that there would be calls for proposals at a national level and then at a local and regional level. People in Donegal, Westmeath or Tipperary could make a proposal through local activists, local authority arts officers or teachers. The image we have in our head is that maybe five local boards would initially be empowered which would allow for a "suck it and see" situation for all parties. Perhaps two or three years later another five would be brought on stream. From an economic and efficiency viewpoint, we feel that there is a structure which would allow this to become a reality.
That is all I would like to say initially. We are happy to tease out any of what we have said in more detail.
I should declare my interest in that I spent seven years in university studying music. Many ask how I could have spent that long on something that is an "amuse yourself in the corner" subject. It is not and that is the message on which we are agreed. Some wish to become professional musicians, others do not but may take up another role within music, while others do not want music being central to their existence. However, it is evident that an understanding of music has come about recently and there have been many articles in the media proving that it is a subject that develops the entire brain and is the only one that encompasses the true holistic approach to reading, writing and arithmetic. Therefore, it is valuable as a subject, not just to provide the band for the dignitary who arrives at a school but as a fundamental building block in the educational process. That is why I am interested in the report's contents.
I am happy with the cost-effectiveness approach. As the witnesses said, when there are grey economic clouds, the first item on any agenda is cost. It is worth pointing out that witnesses refer in the report to the use of vocational educational committee and other school facilities. The committee has, under its sports remit, discussed the lack of use of school facilities. The witnesses in the report are not trying to create new locations and instead are trying to be highly cost-effective.
I am in contact with representatives in the music field in the North and attended a reunion of the music department in Jordanstown on Saturday because it is moving to Magee. The first query I received was whether we can do morefor the North-South, east-west, Donegal-Derry development of music. Given that peripatetic music tuition is very strong within the school structure in Northern Ireland, why does the witnesses' report indicate that instrumental and vocal music is considered to be better taught outside school hours, even from the perspective of the teacher who provides the tuition? Traditionally, the only time people have been able to work is in the evening when children are out of school. Was music tuition deliberately taken out of school time or was there something in the witnesses' relationship to the people to whom they spoke in the North that led to the belief that the peripatetic service was not working right within the school system? I would not mind if the witnesses wanted to put a comment to that.
The witnesses stated that the national music education council will encompass existing groups rather than becoming something additional to them. Why do they think this report will be successful when so many other reports have been left on the shelf? Based on their feedback in compiling the report, can the witnesses say whether the two Departments work together? Will the planned decentralisation to county level through county development boards - another plus in that existing structures are being used - negate the fact that two Department are involved? We who work with Departments know their many hats and how they do not like sharing them. Perhaps the witnesses would comment on that.
I will take comments from committee members and will return to the witnesses for an overall response.
Have the witnesses examined the issue of music and people with an intellectual disability and are there any recommendations in this regard? I have seen it effectively used with profoundly or severely handicapped children who present challenging behaviour. The use of music seemed to bring some calm to their lives.
The focus is on primary schools in particular and on secondary schools to a lesser extent. Is there an overall plan to provide career paths for people who have a musical talent to allow them move on to third level education as part of their development?
That embraces the music therapy issue.
Ms McCrea
Perhaps I could address that issue. We in Music Network have some experience in this area in that we have worked with older people in the health care context. We have experience of working with older people, some of whom would suffer from dementia and also various physical disabilities. We have found that music can have a significant impact not only in terms of stimulation but also raising quality of life within their living environment. We have worked specifically within residential care settings.
There could definitely be a positive impact across the board in terms of children and people with disabilities learning music. This is about creating structured music resources within each county. I would see a role for health boards within the local music education service partnerships alongside local authorities, vocational education committees, etc. and in planning the resource and drawing on it when it is created. That was in our thinking and it is a realistic aspiration.
Mr. Drury
It is also important that our terms of reference were given to us by the Minister and they were strict enough in terms of their focus. The issue of children or others with special needs and any dimension of the curriculum is enormously complex in terms of its implications, whether it is music as part of education or music therapy in a health care context. We do not have a lot to say about that because our terms of reference were specifically about providing a more mainstream, locally developed music education service. That is not to say, as Ms McCrea has said and coming back to my own example, that over time one might not have an area of expertise in Tipperary, Wexford or Cork. It might well be that local circumstances, the local availability of people or a health care unit would grow that expertise or commitment to music therapy and in turn that could become a role model for elsewhere. However, we have tried to make the report as short, sharp and practicable as possible and to make the purpose of it as precise as possible. It would be dishonest of us to say that it roams into too many other areas which are involved by implication but which would emerge in detail in terms of local delivery.
Regarding the out of school hours service and peripatetic teachers, we would be trying to push out the boundaries of what can happen in the 9 a.m. to 3 or 4 p.m. frame of reference as far as possible. The first issue of the report is to deliver more quality in primary and secondary schools. There is an issue, given the number of claims on the curriculum and on school time, in children developing an interest or competence which will be beyond the scope of the timetable or the school to deliver. It is then a question of how one addresses that child's need. Nothing here would exclude a local service providing a peripatetic teacher for a small, two-teacher school environment but again, that is a matter of local delivery. The implications of subsidiarity mean we cannot second-guess all the possibilities that may occur but we believe that like English, Latin, mathematics and the sciences, music should be part of general education. There will then come a point where a service has to be provided and we feel that should be a local service, though not necessarily a peripatetic one.
Deputy O'Shea was talking about the full range of disability from serious disability down to mild disability and we had an example of someone who stammers but who may not stammer when singing. The person one gets a classroom assistant for when they are eight or nine because their reading is not up to scratch might not need that assistant if they are getting a level of practical musical education - clapping, singing or banging a drum. I want to clarify for those who may not have seen the detail in the report that when we talk about classroom music we are talking of three aspects: listening, performing and composing. One remembers when a toothbrush was given to every child; can the delegation envisage a time when perhaps a recorder could be given to every child so that it becomes part of school like a Bunsen burner in science or the paints in art?
Mr. Drury
That raises issues of appropriate resourcing. If a mandate were issued stating children could only use words of two syllables when talking in the playground there would be horror, and rightly so. There is a musical and artistic equivalent of that in terms of the quality of materials and we need to do better. Issues will arise at local level in creating instrument banks, as a child may pick up one instrument but develop an interest in another three or four years later, changing from the saxophone to the flute, for example. We cannot address everything but slowly, over ten to 20 years, one could create instrument banks which would be seen then as being normal when now it is seen as exotic. There are examples abroad which indicate that partnerships between local authorities - libraries, for example - and the education service can help to make these available.
Looking at the report, the terms of reference do not stipulate that the delegation had to look at participation rates in music at second level, but did it do so as part of the overall study? Were there any interesting observations? To some it would appear that over the years, though perhaps not recently, there was an elitist approach to music which would be borne out by participation rates. What are the delegation's views on that?
Ms McCrea
We referred to second level statistics in passing as part of our research, particularly the uptake of music at leaving certificate level. Certainly the percentages have been very low in the past, though they are growing with the introduction of the new curriculum. That new curriculum is excellent and the emphasis is on making music more relevant to people generally and breaking down those elitist barriers. However, the fact is that if one chooses to take music at leaving or junior certificate level one is required to perform to a certain extent. It makes up 25% of one's mark unless one chooses to specialise in performing, in which case it makes up 50% of one's overall mark. Therefore unless one has had access to opportunities to develop one's vocal or instrumental skills sufficiently one is disenfranchised in terms of the leaving certificate.
Mr. Drury
I was involved in a study called Deaf Ears which looked at this issue statistically several years ago and the statistics are often better than the reality. A child who wants to study the fiddle for the leaving certificate will register for the leaving certificate in his or her school but may not be taught the fiddle in the school. He or she is registered as a statistic which suggests the school is offering the subject but the pupil may be taught the fiddle in a local town. In comparison with our European neighbours we are well behind on this issue.
Deputy O'Shea asked about career paths and third level education. We maintain that this is a rising tide and that if the provision at first and second levels is better and more stimulating, it will follow that the colleges and schools of music will have increased enrolments. For some time we were following the fourth level conservatoire model of the IAPA, the Irish Academy of the Performing Arts. It is not that that is not needed but it seems to be providing something without well-made foundations being in place. The IAPA now appears shelved or mothballed, I am not sure which, but at the launch of our document I made the point that if whatever resources are available - not just financial resources but the political will which drove the IAPA project - could be redirected to first and second level provision we would be doing an intrinsically good job. However, we would also create conditions in 15 or 20 years in which the IAPA would make more sense.
I welcome Music Network. I am familiar with the organisation and commend it on its work. I see it as trying to create music centres in local communities, urban or rural, where people can be identified as providers and teachers of music. I am aware also that the organisation is compiling a directory of music performers and tutors around the country. Has that been completed? In compiling those lists, has Music Network spoken with these people, who are already in the community providing a valuable service at a low cost, about how they survive? They pass on those skills in a way that is beyond the call of duty because of their love of music and singing and they do a good job. I am not condemning Music Network's proposal but by bringing music tuition to the centre and making it more formal, I hope something is not lost. There is a community and voluntary aspect to this area, as children sometimes cannot afford even the low fees charged by tutors. I do not know how these tutors can survive on their fees alone, as those are very low. What is the delegation's view of the community aspect of the teaching of music, which is working well in rural areas?
Ms McCrea
We are still in the process of compiling our database of local music education provision. It is still ongoing and will continue. It is an on-line format which is publicly accessible through our website and is still expanding. It started from scratch a couple of years ago and we now have more than 1,000 entries within the database. I hope it will continue to grow exponentially.
In terms of the great work being done by individual music teachers, community organisations and private service providers, we are not intending to undermine the value of that work. The problem lies in the fact that what is there is ad hoc. It is not structured. It can be present in some counties and absent in others. There is a need for some kind of high quality baseline provision which would be accessible to the people of every county in Ireland. There are various ways in which this could be done. We are not trying to prejudge how individual music teachers might wish to offer their services to the new music education services. However, it would be an option for existing private music schools to offer their services and to become the hub of the new local music education service or to join forces with another service provider in their area. Equitable rates of pay, contracts and job security for teachers would be part of the local music education service. Many music education service providers currently do not have this.
Is it often assumed that music will be provided by a retired musician or that a person who has been supplying it for nothing will come into a school and offer their services out of a love of music rather than as a valued subject that should be paid for? It is my understanding of the report that finance should be put in place so that people who are currently living on nothing can be paid but that students will not bear the brunt of this expense. A structure should to be put on what is already happening but the people who are now under-paid and who are expected to provide choirs, pantomimes, community and traditional arts and so on will be recognised financially.
The delegation spoke of local needs and of existing local traditions. Has Music Network looked at the introduction of new experiences and at opening children to new musical experiences which are not currently available? Has the network looked at music as a subject choice at second level, particularly in the leaving certificate? The numbers taking music in the leaving certificate are very low. It is perceived to be very difficult to gain high marks in leaving certificate music and the results bear this out. Does Ms McCrea think the provision of the service at local level outside the education service is impacting on the desire of people to take music as a leaving certificate subject? At primary level music is just one of many aspects of teacher training. Will the report's proposals necessitate a change in teachers' training? In some schools the provision of music is quite hit and miss. Ms McCrea mentioned teachers' feelings of competency and confidence in teaching the subject. Will this be changed and does Ms McCrea see a need for this to be changed?
Ms McCrea mentioned a timeframe of ten to 15 years for the implementation of the report. What discussions has she had with the Departments regarding their role in its implementation and regarding the division of the cost of implementation?
I welcome Music Network to the committee and I congratulate those involved on the work that is taking place. As the Chairman said, this committee has an interest in music matters. We have had discussions on the position in the Cork School of Music, which is worrying many of us in the south.
Ms McCrea said she wanted to make the experience of live music accessible to everybody. This is a laudable objective and I agree with it. She also mentioned citizenship and different types of intelligence. Music Network may have based some of its work on Howard Gardner's theories of multiple intelligence. He puts foward the idea that there are many types of intelligence, that musical intelligence is one of them and that we often do not allow or encourage the development of that side of intelligence. I would like to hear the delegation's view on Howard Gardner's theory, on its value and on how it might be developed in and out of schools. Is it true that some children would learn in a musical way, as some would learn spatially and some from a numerical point of view?
Was it part of the network's remit to look at costings? What would the network like to see happening regarding timeframe?
I am interested in what was said about the county development plans. How would the proposals knit in with them? The addendum mentions spatial strategy and community development. Will the network flesh that idea out? Is the network saying we need, when planning new developments, to include places where the music experience can be listened to, performed and even composed? In my area groups come to me who would like to practise music but who have no place to do so. Is that what is being referred to? What supports exist for such development?
I thank Music Network for their presentation. What role does the network envisage for local youth bands?
As a child I was a student of the College of Music, which is now a constituent college of the Dublin Institute of Technology. The parents of students of the college and the Dublin Institute of Technology have given presentations to this committee on current developments there. Does Music Network see the College of Music continuing its role of teaching students from very young beginners to third level?
Mr. Drury
While we did not have vast philosophical debates it is true to say we would be very comfortable with the notion of multiple intelligence and different learning styles and with the notion that adults as well as children have different intelligence. Like most western European societies we have an education system which favours certain kinds of learning and of the retrieval of that learning. We see music as a form of intelligence. This is very often not even argued but it is seen as a social competency or a motor skill. It is a way of seeing and knowing the world. This is true of all the arts but music has something particular and distinctive. If it did not we would not have invented it. Lack of music is a form of cultural poverty. Combat Poverty has done some interesting work on the notions of cultural deprivation. We would link the issue of citizenship to notions of intelligence and the commitment between the State and the individual whereby we state that we will take the person into school and ensure all his or her intelligence is grown. In fact, we fail in that regard because we take them into school and develop only certain kinds of intelligence.
On costings, the work Jack O'Brien did for the Department of Education and Science on salary structures, costs and pupil-teacher ratios became a foundation stone for the document. We did not go into detail because we realised at the outset that there is a technical dimension to the implications of this report which is beyond our competence in detail. However, it has been road-tested by a number of civil servants from both Departments and we feel the proposal is a viable one if there is enough will to do it.
The broad answer to the question on the notion of county development plans is, yes. It is a notion of acknowledging that physical and human resources exist at a county level and of there being enough goodwill in terms of the provision of libraries, art centres and local environmental planning and in acknowledging that new facilities will need to be put in place for new communities. On whether we are creating a centre, we are not. It is important to stress that. I will take Sligo as an example because I worked there for a number of years. We would see Tubbercurry, Gurteen, Easkey and Grange, because there are vocational schools in those areas, as places where the service could be delivered to children within a 15 or 20 mile zone. It is not a case of sucking the children into Sligo town.
In terms of rural and community development we are, in diagnostic terms, all good at throwing our hands up in the air and saying we have to do something about the erosion of life. We believe that the availability of this type of cultural service in conjunction with concerts etc. would renew the spirit of communities. That then links up with the issue of youth bands. This is all about playing music for private, family and community pleasure. I am sad to report - I have done some work in the midlands in this regard - that, partly because of the voluntary culture suffering in the age in which we live, youth bands and new groups are also declining in numbers.
We are proposing a structure whereby private-individual music teachers will reach a point where they can attend local debates in Tipperary, Cork or Sligo and stake their claim. The model to be delivered in Sligo will be different to that delivered in Dundalk by virtue of the fact that local activists there will shape it differently though it must address certain criteria which are established nationally so that the Department of Education and Science can assure itself this is good quality music education. The specifics can be honed according to local need.
The question of new musical experiences is important. Our notion of tradition is that this is as of a continuum; nothing stands still. Therefore, we value the specific distinctive Irish music we have made and will continue to make. Clearly that is an evolving musical tradition. One could not try to stop that happening even if one tried by virtue of the relationship with different instruments and technologies. That type of transfusion between orthodox definitions of tradition and newer ones are, for us, a natural thing. We are giving people soil, seeds and bulbs which they will sow and water according to their needs. It is not about a hegemony of one Zanussi-like fridge of a music service that will descend meaning that whatever is going on in Athlone will happen in Gorey. It will not work that way. We are trying to design a model which stands up to the rigour that is appropriate for a public service model but is flexible enough for local people to shape according to their needs.
On primary level training, we have not assumed there will be any change in terms of pre-service training. We have acknowledged and assumed that that will continue to be relatively poor. We are saying, in professional development terms, that when a teacher comes out of training at 21 or 22 years of age that we will try to support him or her and provide the kind of resources that will enhance. It is different work from what we were asked to do in terms of examining the question of arts at primary school level. I have done a great deal of that in another life. This work had to assume certain things. What we are trying to do is to insert something into an existing landscape rather than deconstruct that landscape and eventually come up with a solution. This is a solution that could be inserted relatively easily into the existing landscape thereby improving it.
The timeframe is beyond our control. We have met with the current Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism - this work was commissioned by the previous Minister - and briefed him on the report. We will shortly have a meeting with the Secretary-General of the Department of Education and Science. We have undertaken the work required and feel there is only a certain point in the mountain to which we can bring the rock and are anxious, as in the case of many other reports, that the rock does not fall to the bottom. We are aware of the systemic problem to which I alluded earlier in terms of this work falling between two stools. We are doing as much as we can as an organisation to keep the rock moving up the mountain.
The issue of music as a subject choice was also raised. We did not explore that beyond the points already outlined.
Musicians are created in Ireland in spite of what is available rather than with assistance. I hope the work of the network will ensure that in future they are created as a result of assistance. The number of people currently involved in music is finite so it is not a matter of one competing against the other. The question will arise in some counties as to where one obtains the resources to go into a particular school. Three generations of children will have passed through primary school in the ten to 15 years mentioned. That is a long time. We will try, as a joint committee, to move the Department along in whatever way we can. It will not be until those currently in primary school go to university to become teachers of music that the cycle will commence. That, in my opinion, will take another 25 to 40 years and is definitely too long.
I agree with where the network is going and that we have made improvements in provisions for music, nationally, at all levels but 40 years is too long and we must expedite the situation. As I want to bring issues to a close I will ask the Chairman of the Joint Committee on Education and Science, Deputy Killeen, to make a comment or two or ask some questions.
I was very impressed by the report which is helpful in that it is prescriptive rather than diagnostic
I do not know how easily the curriculum support service can respond to the need. I was a teacher for 20 years and know there is enormous pressure on curriculum units to develop and provide support to teachers in relatively short time periods. From my experience my impression is that in general the input in regard to vocal training is fairly good. However, if a person happens to be like me and not have a singing voice, the input is neutral or non-existent.
Even in areas where traditional music is taught to a substantial extent in the school, and supported by the tradition of the area outside the school, my impression is that generally speaking only the families who have been traditionally involved tend to continue with the music or pursue it to any great extent. Obviously in those areas some others become active and develop a certain level of proficiency. That is positive but it will be difficult to break into the area of those who are less interested and it will be impossible to give people a singing voice if they do not have one.
I remember that two young boys in a class I had, whom I knew could sing, insisted that they were not able to sing or join the choir. It took me ages to discover why. The rural people here will appreciate that the choirs' most frequent outing was at a funeral mass. The return for being a mass server was considerably better than being a member of the choir whose members got to share a box of sweets whereas a server got paid a few pounds for serving mass.
There have been some interesting innovations. In Clare the education centre has an IT pilot project in education which is exciting and seems to break the mode of getting past just those traditionally involved. I hope that will progress and be accepted elsewhere.
Like Deputy Stanton I agree that our experience in dealing with music in education over the past year or so has been pretty negative. Unfortunately, at the very time that this report has been produced and points a way forward, the two principle items this committee has dealt with in this regard concerned the Cork School of Music, which was negative, and the Dublin Institute of Technology involvement in music education which I confess I did not know extended beyond third level. It was quite impressive but unfortunately was undermined during the period we are looking at, 15 years implementation for this plan.
Major teaching resources are being lost, particularly in the case of Dublin Institute of Technology. I have no doubt but that this is replicated throughout the country for all kinds of reasons. It would be a good starting point to find out what teaching resources still exist but, for a variety of reasons, are no longer available to interested people.
What other models were considered or what other models are used elsewhere? I was impressed that almost every agency, and we have set up many of them in recent years, has been pulled into a relatively central role in the plan. One of the good things in the report is that the existing agencies who have doffed their hat to music now and again, and some of the newer ones who would not even have looked at it, are included. However, I confess I am a little worried that the National Music Education Council will not be in a strong position to address whatever practical deficiencies it sees. I cannot think of a way it might have teeth. Ultimately it will be down to its having resources, access and the right and ability to intervene. I cannot tell how that should be done but hopefully it will be included.
We will allow the presenters to reply and will then wrap up.
Ms McCrea
I speak from a personal perspective about the value of music education. I speak more from a classical perspective concerning the issue of how an interest in learning to play an instrument traditionally comes from a family background in music. I was educated in Northern Ireland, although I was born in County Donegal, and had the good fortune to receive free cello lessons throughout my educational career. These shaped my future path but I accept that is not the be all and end all of what we are looking at here. My family had no previous background in music and I was seen as a bit of an anomaly when I decided I wanted to pursue this particular career path. Exposure through a vibrant curriculum which is delivered in a vibrant, realistic and relevant way to students is another way to create a lifelong interest in music. It need not necessarily just fall to exposure or interest through family background. There are other ways in. Reaching people through schools, particularly at primary level, is the way to widen that interest.
Mr. Drury
Just a few last thoughts. I reiterate our thanks to the committees for allowing us to present our report and the impulses behind the report which are as important. The report acknowledges that in Clare, Kilkenny, Tralee, and many places around the country, there are individuals and organisations doing good work. There is no doubt about that.
The difference, as alluded to by the Chairman, is that we allow for things to happen but do not provide for them to happen. What the report says is that provision is different from allowance. It says that it is 2003 and when we look at statistics an Irish child, compared with a Slovakian, a Hungarian, an Italian or equivalent citizen, is not at the races in this area. We can say, "Too bad" or we can do something about it. This report proposes a way of doing something.
Perhaps the ten to 15 year proposal frightens people. It is not about beginning in ten or 15 years but suggests that this could be completed in ten or 15 years. It is absolutely right that it is a lifelong investment. Irish education was changed by the Investment in Education report. I see this as being about investment. One either believes in music as an important part of citizenship, humanity and intelligence or one does not. If one does not, this report is of no interest. If we do, and do so as a State, then we must do better than we are doing. Maybe this is not the solution but we believe that it is close enough to be considered and to be adapted and that is why we feel that at the implementation phase the fine tuning can go on.
We also say that we do this well as a nation. Ironically it seems strange to be advocating that. We do the bloodstock industry well, we do horses well and we do the arts well. We do not necessarily do furniture design well, other Nordic countries do that. For whatever reason, we do the arts well. If one has a child one wants to nurture that child. What makes Ireland distinctive for ourselves and others is our capacity to storytell, to make images and to make music. We feel there is a danger in the way society is going and that much of what has made us do these things well at an amateur and community level will slip away. MTV, HMV and other acronyms now have the power to turn children into consumers quickly and to disallow them from being citizens and say, "No, you will become a consumer".
The millions of dollars that are spent making a six or seven year old into a musical consumer is frightening in its implications for citizenship as much as its implications generally. We need to develop, if one likes, bulwarks, which say people can actually make music. Of course people can listen to it, but they can also make it. This is what this is about. At a level of citizenship this is urgent. It may be seen and it might be reported as being seen as some very discretionary subset of some already discretionary subset. From the committee's feedback today, we feel the members share that sense of urgency. We did this for the love of music and our commitment to education and we hope the members, as public representatives, can take it on that next stage. We are not competent to know exactly how that can happen, but we hope the committee's goodwill, which we can sense, will help make it happen.
I thank Ms McCrea and Mr. Drury most sincerely. I thank Deputy Killeen and members of the Joint Committee on Education and Science, my own committee and all the staff for a very interesting meeting. As far as I and members of both committees are concerned, we are all aspiring to the same goal and we will do whatever we can to achieve that goal.
The joint committee adjourned at 12.42 p.m.sine die.