I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Noel Ahern, and his officials in the drugs strategy unit, Ms Kathleen Stack, principal officer, and Ms Una Ní Fhairceallaigh, assistant principal. They are here to discuss the review of the national drugs strategy in a week when another major drug dealer in Cork received a heavy prison sentence. However, the issue entails much more than the length of prison terms. As part of the review of the national drugs strategy, there will be an examination of its impact on the four pillars of supply reduction, prevention, treatment and research, as well as many other aspects.
Review of National Drugs Strategy: Ministerial Presentation.
I thank the committee for agreeing to have this session to discuss the mid-term review of the national drugs strategy. It is a seven year strategy, from 2001 to 2008, covering 100 actions being implemented by the various Departments and agencies involved in partnership with the community and voluntary sectors. To tackle drug misuse in a comprehensive and co-ordinated fashion these actions have been designed to meet objectives under the four pillars of supply reduction which involves the Garda Síochána and customs officers, prevention which involves education and the raising of awareness, treatment which involves the health boards and the community sector, and research.
As we are mid-way through the strategy, it is appropriate to take stock and review how it is progressing. It was always intended to have a mid-term review. Earlier this year I established a steering group to oversee this review. The group is chaired by Kathleen Stack and comprises representatives from several Departments and agencies involved in implementing the strategy, as well as from the community and voluntary sectors.
The objective of the review is to examine the progress made to date in achieving the goals and actions set out in the strategy. It will also enable priorities for future action to be identified and a refocusing of the strategy, if deemed appropriate. It will examine the relevance of the strategy in tackling the nature and extent of drug misuse in Ireland, including emerging trends, and help to identify any gaps and how they might be addressed. Following consideration of the various issues involved by the steering group, I will make recommendations on the way forward to the Cabinet committee on social inclusion. I expect the review to be completed early next year, in or after February.
At the core of the review is a wide consultation process. Early last summer we placed advertisements in national and provincial newspapers seeking the views of the public and their suggestions for the future. More than 125 replies were received, mainly from groups. We also held five regional seminars throughout the autumn to provide the public with an additional opportunity to feed its opinions into the review. The seminars were held in Galway, Limerick, Waterford, Carrick-on-Shannon and Dublin. We chose these locations to cover as wide a geographical area as possible and to ensure reasonable access to as many as possible. The sessions were attended by members of the public as well as public representatives, representatives from statutory agencies such as the health boards and the Garda, Departments, community and voluntary groups and regional and local drugs task forces. I attended all five sessions.
Five focus group discussions were held with young people during the autumn. They took place in Limerick, Waterford, Galway, Sligo and Dublin and were facilitated by a consultant who had experience of working with young people. They involved young people ranging in age from 15 years to their early 20s. They included a mix of young people still in school and others who had recently left. The views expressed are feeding into the review.
As well as the formal submissions, we have also had meetings with approximately 25 organisations involved in implementing the strategy or tackling drug misuse at community level. The various views expressed and submissions made are all feeding into the consultation process and will be included in the steering group's final report. The steering group, with the aid of PA Consulting which is assisting it in its ongoing work, is considering and evaluating the outcomes of the consultation process. At this stage members will appreciate that it is still too early to say with any certainty what the key findings in the mid-term review will be. I would not like to pre-empt the work of the steering group in that regard. However, I can say a range of issues have been raised across the four pillars of the strategy which the steering group will be taking on board in its ongoing deliberations.
Members' views as public representatives and members of the Oireachtas committee dealing with community matters will be particularly useful in our ongoing work. I would, therefore, like to spend time this morning listening to and hearing from them on a range of issues such as what they think are the strengths and weaknesses of the strategy; what they think are the key issues for it; whether they think it needs to be refocused under any of the pillars to strengthen it; and what they would like to see happen during its next stage.
Since we are going through a consultation process, we have not made up our minds but from the public meetings held and submissions received the points raised cover the whole range of issues, depending on who one is, to whom one is speaking and the person's interest. Some work for agencies or concentrate on one of the pillars. Matters raised frequently include the structure of the national drugs strategy team, the local and regional drugs task forces and the supports they need. It has been commented that the strategy has been based on heroin use and that there is too much emphasis on targets and getting more people onto methadone programmes. The suggestion has been made that we should be refocusing the strategy or moving the emphasis onto methadone as a short-term measure rather than as a success. There are now more than 7,000 people on methadone programmes. Perhaps, therefore, we should be thinking more of retraining and rehabilitation issues.
The drugs scene is changing, with more cocaine and stable numbers of heroin users, especially in Dublin, although there may be more in other parts of Leinster. Several people raised the issue of policing and the work of CAB which everyone agrees has been very successful but questions are being asked about moving down to the second and third line of suppliers. There is also a lot of emphasis, particularly outside Dublin, on the alcohol strategy and whether there should be links or amalgamations with the national drugs strategy. This point is one one will hear more outside Dublin, particularly since the Department of Health and Children has stated it will be following our lead by having local alcohol task forces. One drug is legal and the other illegal. On supply reduction, they have nothing to do with one another but perhaps the issue of prevention is intertwined.
We have now held nearly all our meetings with the groups and agencies involved and thought it would be appropriate to attend this morning. The steering group is working on its review and we hope to go to the Cabinet sub-committee with the findings in February. I would be interested in any comments or views that might help us in our work.
I thank the Minister of State. Deputy English who is not a member of the committee is very welcome as Fine Gael's spokesperson on drugs. With Deputy O'Malley, he produced a joint report this year for the committee on whether involvement in arts or sports could help reduce the tendency towards alcohol or drug misuse or abuse. The health promotion message in co-operation with the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism is to recognise that drugs will undermine one's physique. The early mother and baby programmes are not available in Ireland but are very much so in such places as Australia where from the very start the two play together or are involved in activities to increase the level of bonding in order that children do not feel neglected by the age of four or five years, with a likelihood of becoming a drug addict a few years later. We have been to the clinic in Tallaght and recognised the efforts being made locally to ensure treatment is available. All of us were impressed with the doctors' approach, the facilities available and the good work being done.
As a committee, we have been very pleased with the number of finds. Everywhere outside Dublin people ask the reason more is not happening regarding drugs but we direct their attention to recent finds in Dublin. If the drugs had not been intercepted, they would have ended up on the streets of other localities. We congratulate the Garda on its work at this level.
Recently in Buenos Aires we met the Segretario de Drogas which is putting together its own drugs strategy. It was very interested in our plan and ongoing review. We hope to go into more detail on the CAB structure and the mandatory ten year sentence for possession. It was au fait with much of what we were doing but interested in receiving more information. The Argentinians were interested in how we were dealing with our marine border since transit is an issue — I assume it is also still an issue in Ireland. I have often thought that lighthouses should be manned again to have someone looking to see if there is unusual activity on the water. I do not know whether much comes in that way but several years ago there were very big finds on yachts.
I often wonder why we do not increase the use of dogs. A dog might be deployed where there is a suspicion of activity. I believe the number of dogs used is below ten. Some say they are expensive but ultimately the finds are substantial. Surely the cost to yield ratio is justified. The greatest thing that could happen in the mid-term review of the national drugs strategy would be for alcohol and drugs to be brought together under one heading. It is ridiculous to put in place a second structure. One does not reinvent the wheel. The community groups involved in combating drugs almost always comprise the same people who are concerned over alcohol abuse. Alcohol is one of the most serious social problems in Ireland, both at under-age and adult levels. It is a problem that must be grappled and effectively dealt with. This appears to me to be the most appropriate way to achieve that. I will ask Deputy English for his comments, followed by Deputy O'Shea.
I have a few brief points to make. Deputy Fiona O'Malley has researched this area and will be in a position to offer a full opinion. From talking to people in different areas, I gather there is considerable disappointment over the current strategy as regards its progress and lack of success. One concern is over the delays in setting up the task force. It is now three years on, half way through the strategy, and we still do not have plans. They are being promised this month, next month or the month afterwards. No single person is to blame for that. It should be insisted upon, however, that the plans are drawn up. What is the reason for the delay? Much of the evidence and information was already there. It appears that red tape and unnecessary complications are militating against getting the plans together. It is not good enough that half way through the timeframe the plans are not in place.
Then there is the whole question of funding. A clear message must be sent out and the forthcoming budget is the time to do this, as well as at the mid-term review stage. Money has to be invested in the project, even as the plans emerge, and the taskforces must be given the relevant resources to tackle drug abuse. That has not been done and neither has it been a priority up to now. Perhaps a PR job is needed, but the message is not getting through that we are sufficiently serious about tackling this problem. This is the feed-back I am getting from many of the groups working in this area. There is plenty of tokenism. I know the Minister of State is committed, but it needs to have the full backing of the Government with maximum resources being put into the strategy.
For two or three years after Ms Veronica Guerin was killed, it was not possible to get drugs in many places. There was a different priority in Government towards tackling the problem and indeed this attitude straddled two different Administrations. There was a whole new initiative. I found, in my town and in others, that there was a seriousness about tackling the problem, mainly on the supply side. Why is it that so much more could be achieved at a time when it was a matter of heartfelt public concern? Much work has been done, but there is a massive problem as regards the availability of drugs and cocaine is now widespread. This needs to be acknowledged in this review. It is one of the major developments since the initiative following the death of Ms Guerin. Overall, drugs have been on the increase in every town and community in recent years.
I am not blaming anyone in particular. This would have happened in parallel with economic growth, anyway. However, the problems are now more serious than before and there is greater urgency. Targets must be set and achieved within specified timeframes. If a regional taskforce has not reported and submitted its plans it must be brought to account. The people in charge must demand a proactive approach and not be complacent when told a plan will be available in two months time. They must demand answers. If the fault for the delays lies with the Government, that too must be resolved.
There are many specific issues to be dealt with. On behalf of Fine Gael, I will make a submission under different headings. Funding is vital and a clear message as regards urgency needs to be sent out. There is an opportunity to do that, both under this review and in the budget.
Deputy Fiona O'Malley and I compiled a report, on behalf of the committee, and with its help, on the use of sports, arts, etc., to deter people from drug abuse. I would ask that this report be looked at, as much research has gone into to it. It makes clear that drugs and alcohol abuse are similar and it is time the two strategies for combating them were merged. Essentially, we are talking about the abuse of substances. Much could be achieved by merging the two areas over as many headings as possible. The review offers us a chance to do this. We looked at many ways in which to get young people involved. We need to get them at a young age, but there has to be a commitment to multi-annual funding and youth programmes. The youth development initiative is not being funded, and that has the potential to help in the whole area of drug abuse. It comes under a different Department, but recommendations should be made under this review. Other Departments have to do their bit. The initiative has been totally underfunded. In effect it is a non-commitment to youth and this is the area which is mostly affected by drugs. We are failing as regards delivering to the young people of this country. It is not easy to deliver and, in many cases it is a two-way strategy, but I do not believe that the Government is doing enough.
Finally, the Criminal Assets Bureau needs to look at money earned though drug dealing. Should that not be ringfenced for this whole area? If we were really concerned and wanted the strategy to work, we would find a way of funding it, and what better way than to link this directly to it? That should be a commitment and a clear message for all concerned. Perhaps we are trying to do to much too quickly. We are not achieving enough, however, and perhaps the strategy should be condensed and replaced by shorter, clearer targets if we are to make progress. In general, people are not happy and do not believe the strategy is working. It is no use to point the finger at anyone, but the feeling is that not much progress has been made. We need to do something quickly to get out of the rut. That is my brief opinion on the situation. I will make a proper submission to the committee in due course. I welcome this review and believe it is timely and necessary.
I welcome the Minister of State and his officials. This is an enormous area of concern for the country. Approximately two years ago, I and other public representatives met a girl, confidentially, who had been into drugs and came out of it and successfully completed her leaving certificate. She said she has been drinking alcohol from the time she was 12 years of age. I asked her how she had access to it. She said that she and some of her friends would go around to each other's houses where there were bottles of alcohol. They would take just enough, in the hope that this would not be noticed. That led to what they called "bush drinking", in vacant areas. She said there was always someone over 18 available to buy the alcohol in the off-licences. As regards the supply of drugs in this relatively small town, the girl said that if given the money she could be back within half an hour with any substance that was required.
I feel we are not getting access to the information younger people have as regards drug supply. They are frightened to make any statement as regards that and to point in any particular direction. I instanced the case of this girl because it seems that in many cases alcohol is the drug of entry. They move on to one of the softer drugs and eventually get to the hard drugs.
The use of heroin in Ireland is quite interesting because by the time that drug was a problem in Ireland, in Europe particularly, where I had some exposure to the system, it was seen by the drug addicts as "a loser's drug". It had been a popular drug in the 1960s when film stars and others were taking it. However, at the same time Ireland had a heroin problem among the young, particularly in Dublin. That there has been a move towards cocaine is sinister. With heroin, the user takes a fix and goes into a kind of stupor over a period whereas with cocaine, particularly crack cocaine, the experience is a very fast one. The user goes to a high but comes down quickly. Therefore, there is more demand for cocaine and, obviously, more money is required to use it. Statistics in the newspapers last weekend indicated that one quarter of all crime is drugs related, which gives us an idea of what is happening.
I would be strongly of the view that, as other members and the Minister have stated, the area of alcohol use needs to be more firmly addressed. As a former national school teacher, I know the children at risk in terms of this type of behaviour are identifiable at a very young age. The education system and other relevant services should focus on the younger group to seek to stop the problem before it begins. The home situations of many such children is not a good one and perhaps nobody bothers to care for them. I have witnessed situations where children do not go home after school because there is no-one else at home and no food or heat in winter. They go instead to local supermarkets, particularly shopping centres, where they can get heat but, when there, they become involved in other activities.
The sooner those at risk are identified and there is substantial intervention, the better. We must seek to solve these problems in a family context. There should be effective statutory and non-statutory ways of co-ordinating the various services that deal with the family. Many family situations require hands-on concentrated effort if substantial progress is to result.
Every possible effort should be made to catch those over 18 who are buying drink from off-licences for those under age and to make an example of them in the courts, which would deter others. If the supply is cut off for the young, these anti-social trends will not develop.
When I served in the then Department of Health, there was a strong school of thought that methadone was not the most suitable treatment. I disagreed with this because methadone was the only treatment available at the time. Effectively, it replaces heroin with an artificial drug which takes the chaotic behaviour out of a person's life. That person can then lead a fairly normal life, including attending work and so on. Methadone has its place and, as the Minister of State stated, more than 7,000 people are on methadone maintenance programmes. However, I am not sure treating heroin addicts with methadone is suitable because it can be a lifelong experience for the person being treated. Is methadone still the only treatment or are other treatments available? There is no treatment such as methadone with regard to cocaine use. Is there any reason to be hopeful that some therapy or drug will become available?
I did some travelling in this regard when the drugs strategy was being drawn up during my time as Minister of State at the Department of Health. In Amsterdam, I visited services for rehabilitating those who had come off drugs and was told by the person in charge there that there was not a significant rate of success. He said that heroin addicts often reach a stage when they no longer get a bang from heroin. This allows a short window of time during which, if there is good intervention, the addict will not be allowed to partake of alcohol because it seems that alcohol addiction will follow quickly from the dead heroin addiction. Nonetheless, it was not encouraging to see what was happening there.
With regard to the task forces, the Garda Síochána and the customs service deal with the supply side of the drugs trade while the demand side is effectively a health issue. Is there information from the demand side which could be useful in dealing with the supply side in terms of apprehending or bringing before the courts offenders who supply drugs to the young?
Alcohol abuse among the young and among older people, to which Deputy English referred, is probably a more serious social problem than drugs, particularly outside Dublin, although it is accepted that any drug is available and not difficult to obtain outside Dublin. When visiting Manchester, the services of which were well developed at the time, we were told about a particular variant of ecstasy. Generally, when a new drug comes on the market, it can take up to 18 months to be detected in a substantial way. However, the police had a lucky break with regard to this drug when its existence was discovered during a purely random search.
An interesting point from our visit to Amsterdam was that many people, addicts or otherwise, had moved on to a cocktail of proprietary medicines which were available at particular bridge in Amsterdam which operated like a stock market with regard to supply and demand. Is there evidence to suggest a similar trend in Ireland or that such cocktails of proprietary drugs are now the preferred substance for recreational drug users or for addicts?
I welcome the Minister of State and his colleagues. I note that the contributions have focused almost entirely on the first pillar, which reflects concerns among the general public. I have the pleasure of working closely with a dedicated group of volunteers in my constituency, Balbriggan Awareness of Drugs. The frustration of its members with what they see as the non-implementation of the strategy is expressed regularly. The main difficulty is that drugs are freely available. They are as easy to get as one's local politician, and politicians in the area are easily got. Drugs are only a phone call away. It is very frustrating for groups such as this one, for parents generally and for decent upstanding members of society to see the fabric of society being eroded by the insidious nature of the supply chain of drugs.
The lack of Garda resources is a significant difficulty because it changes the role of the Garda Síochána in dealing with drugs, from a proactive role to an utterly reactive one. Only when serious pressure is applied to the Garda is this situation different. In the last few months, the volunteer group with which I am involved has had two successful exercises carried out by the Garda, but only because pressure was applied through the group after normal public channels of access to the Garda failed. This is a sad situation. There is a problem with Garda resources in general and if the resources do not exist to tackle the drugs problem, we must come up with another solution. It is as simple as that. This issue should form a major part of the review.
I am in complete agreement regarding the place of alcohol in the strategy. Alcohol is a drug and it is indulging in semantics to describe it as anything else. It is very much the drug of entry and should be seen as such. There is a significant problem with the third-party purchase of alcohol. We have tried to deal with this problem in the group but the law as it currently stands does not have the capacity to deal with the third-party purchase and onward supply of alcohol. I cannot suggest an answer to this problem that will meet with any type of approval. One suggestion put forward within the group was that the age limit for the purchase of alcohol from off-licences should be set at a higher level than that for on-licence sales. This raises a host of political issues but it is the only solution I have heard that may have some hope of making an impact on the situation.
On my way home one day during the summer, I noticed a group of youngsters smoking in an open area some 150 yards from me. I only knew they were smoking because the tips of their cigarettes were visible in the darkness. Bottles and cans of alcohol were obviously being drunk and perhaps some other substances. Upon passing the Garda station on my way home, I found a garda on duty there even though it was midnight. I asked him how gardaí felt about these types of incidents. His response was that if he were to round those teenagers up and bring them home, there would be no parent in 80% of the homes. Dysfunctional families are passing the symptoms of that dysfunction down to the next generation. This will only be dealt with if the functional element of society adequately resources the statutory authorities, particularly the Garda, to deal with the problem on a proactive rather than a reactive basis. The nature of dealing with the drugs problem, in society in general and also in sport, is almost by definition reactionary. The drugs manufacturers are always a step ahead of the tracers but we must resource the tracers, in particular the Garda Síochána, to deal with that reality on a proactive basis.
I welcome the Minister of State. A mid-term review of the national drugs strategy is an interesting prospect. Some seven or eight years ago, the CEO of one of the groups somewhere in the country got in trouble for saying that he would puke if he saw another review. I share this sentiment. As a member of the Joint Committee on Health and Children, I have seen numerous reviews and studies over the years. As Deputy Glennon observed, the resources are not there to deal with this ever-increasing problem. The budget allocated to the regional drugs task forces is inadequate.
The heroin problem in our cities is being dealt with, certainly in Dublin. We must consider these positive aspects. The Minister of State is aware, however, that heroin suppliers are moving into regional towns. Rural Ireland faces a significant drugs epidemic unless some radical action is taken. We must return to the age-old saying that "prevention is better than cure". If extra gardaí and other resources are not put in place, as part of the drugs strategy to be implemented by 2008, the drugs culture will take hold. We will then need 10,000 gardaí to eradicate the drugs scourge that will attack those places not already under such attack.
I am worried by attempts to lump drugs and alcohol together. We must encourage responsible alcohol consumption but we must eradicate the illegal use of drugs. I disagree with some members in my contention that the drugs task forces should be concerned only with drug abuse. There should be a separate alcohol task force because drug misuse represents possibly the most serious threat to society. In previous times, we struggled with a security threat. The advent of the Celtic tiger and the current buoyant economy have largely resolved other problems such as high unemployment. Drug abuse is the one issue that will undermine our buoyant economy and prosperous countryside. I have visited some of the major towns in England and found that the shutters are closed on every shop by 6 p.m. This is a consequence of the drugs culture which has permeated through all the regional centres in that country. This must not happen here. Unless we deal with the real threat, reports like this one will continue to issue, bearing evidence of an increasingly worsening situation.
Anybody selling drugs does not look like the stereotypical criminal, as depicted in the comics, wearing pyjamas covered with up-pointing arrows, a Dick Turpin style mask and his swag on his back. These men and women are sophisticated. They are sometimes failed business people who recognise an opportunity to make money. We have a consumer society, obsessed with money-making opportunities. I am aware of a businessman who was approached in a major town close to my home by some young women who wished to borrow €2,000. On asking the purpose of this loan, they informed him of their intention to use the money to purchase cocaine, E tablets or other drugs and thereby secure €10,000 by the end of the month. This would allow them to purchase designer clothes. This is what we are up against. We are not dealing with people from the traditional criminal families but with those whose concern is to make an easy profit. Unless the resources are there, we will be unable to tackle this problem.
In my area Gardaí must wait up to three months for the drugs squad with sniffer dogs to come and carry out a drugs bust. They do not have the resources to do it themselves. Young people have mobile phones and are able to conceal small amounts of cannabis. It is difficult for the Garda to act without proper resources. Such resources do not exist. Gardaí tell me this themselves.
Many people are immune to the possibility of being caught. Anybody who can turn over large amounts of money will take chances. There have been instances of lorry drivers discovered only because of their amount of wealth. We are a consumer society. Some people on social welfare may be tempted. The message must go out that if you dabble in the sale of drugs you can lose your social welfare. Currently, if one is convicted of selling drugs, one can still claim welfare. We must send out the message that people can lose everything and be left out in the cold.
It is one of the most serious issues facing rural Ireland. Some people are calling for the problems of alcohol and drugs to be separated. Drugs combined with alcohol are the issue. Young people are drinking spirits quickly and this trend causes huge imbalances, particularly among young women. The Government is tackling the drinking culture. Extra taxes have been placed on alcopops and that has helped. There is an ingredient combined with alcohol, namely ecstasy, cannabis or cocaine. That creates an explosive mixture.
There have been drug seizures on the N4 and N5, and cars have been stopped. We should not congratulate ourselves because it is only the tip of the iceberg. Unless we undertake serious prevention measures against drugs, they will permeate every town, village and rural area in Ireland. I do not want to walk around towns where every shop is boarded up after 6 p.m. and people stand on street corners with baseball caps selling drugs and business people decide money can be made out of the drug culture. Young women come to me saying they can double or treble their income. They have no regard to the consequences. It is turning a quick pound. That is what we face unless we match resources to the vast amounts of wealth which can be made selling drugs. Otherwise, we are fighting a losing battle.
I agree with Deputy English in that it might be time to look at the CAB and money made from illegal gains. Perhaps money seized by the State should be put into the fight against drugs. It is time to create extra regional task forces and give the gardaí the resources they need.
I welcome the Minister of State and his officials. I compliment him on his commitment to this major problem. If everybody was as committed as he to solving the drugs problem in Ireland we would be well on the way.
I also thank the Minister of State for visiting my constituency in County Longford on numerous occasions and for addressing the drugs issue in the area. I thank him for the amount of resources his Department has placed at our disposal. A massive amount of money has been ploughed into Coolamber Manor to combat the problem of drugs and help rehabilitate addicts.
There should be a mandatory jail sentence for possession of drugs. When I read the newspapers, it is the same ballyhoo with regard to every court case. People say, "It is his first offence, he did not mean to do it, he was in the wrong place, he does not know how it happened and it will never happen again." The same person is up on charges one, two and three years later.
If there were no customers, there would be no dealers. It is too serious. What you never have, you never miss. Parents think everybody is out of step except their child. They think none of their children take drugs. That is nonsense.
Drug dealers are criminal thugs destroying people. However, they are too acceptable in our communities. Some people know who they are. They front their activities with legitimate businesses and respectable, decent people deal with them and give them a front. These businesses should be boycotted.
One must be cruel to be kind. I compliment the Garda Síochána, especially in County Longford. If people had more faith in the Garda and reported anything suspicious, there would be a higher success rate in the fight against drugs. People talking about drug dealing, whether at public meetings or in the press, ruin surveillance operations. Gardaí will have been watching a certain property or client for perhaps two years, and the whole cover is blown. The dealer is wise to the fact there will be a raid. There have been instances where people know drugs are dealt from a house or property and somebody gets up and publicly points to the street or area. The Garda then seeks to raid the property, but it cannot get in without sledgehammers because of double steel doors and huge security. People should report the matter to the Garda and work with it. Gardaí will do their job if they get help and co-operation. It must be annoying for gardaí to watch a building for two years and find their surveillance is blown by a couple of people talking out of turn.
Drugs are a major problem in this country. We must focus on drugs to solve the problem, and not be diverted from a crackdown. Drug dealers must love when people divert and talk about alcohol. They must laugh. The major problem in towns and villages is drugs. If anyone walks the streets of Ireland on Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights they will observe drugs are the problem. How can anyone go crazy on a bottle or two of lager? I have watched sensible, reasonable people walk into premises and be pleasant and courteous. They drink one bottle of lager and are dancing on the table. I get a bit crazy myself, but I have never been able to do so on one bottle of lager.
We must emphasise that there is a major problem. If we are serious — I think we are — we should focus on the problem itself. What is it? Is it drug abuse? We should make up our minds as to its exact nature. One will not solve a problem by talking about ten different ones. Anybody who has a problem can be helped if people focus and concentrate on it. It seems we want to be diverted into talking about everything else. However, we will not solve everything else. Therefore, we should concentrate on solving the drugs problem, the biggest cancer in Irish society.
Education is the way forward. Everything else is not working out that well. It should be compulsory for children to be taught in schools, from the age of five years, about the harm done by drug abuse. Children retain what they learn from the age of five or six years because they are smart, intelligent and bright. If they are taught about the horror of drug abuse from such an age, they will remember it.
I have read the results of surveys. If one asks a person whether he or she takes drugs, he or she will probably say no. People will not admit to taking drugs until they are caught, although they are willing to speak about the amount of alcohol they consume. Has a realistic survey of drug use ever been done? I cannot get any young fellow to tell me whether he is taking drugs. If he is caught, I cannot get him to tell me who the dealer is or where he buys drugs. People close their mouths when asked about drugs, even though they will speak about alcohol. They may not be drinking that much but it suits them to say they are. Young people are believed when they say they consume a great deal of alcohol. Most of those who have gone a little crazy are on drugs. We did not face a major problem of this type 25 or 30 years ago when the consumption of alcohol was higher. I do not condone the abuse of any substance. While I would like alcohol to be controlled, I honestly do not believe it is the major problem.
The Minister of State is doing the best he can in terms of reduction, prevention, treatment and research. I wish him continued success.
I am tempted to say one is unlikely to get shot by one's local publican if one says one was served alcohol while under age or that one was served too much drink in his or her pub. However, if one opened one's mouth about the drugs industry, one would face a much greater threat. Is any support given to those who want to provide information? Is there any evidence that some gardaí are unable or unwilling to deal with information they are given? They may be scared about what might happen to them, espicially if a drug dealer in their vicinity is particularly strong. It is brave of gardaí and officials to give such evidence because their families may be under threat as a result. Does the minister of State have any information on that regard?
Is there any cross-Border co-operation in respect of the work being done by the Criminal Assets Bureau in this jurisdiction? I understand consideration is being given to establishing an equivalent agency in the North but I do not know if it has yet been set up. Is there evidence of cross-Border co-operation in the cases of people who live on one side of the Border and have businesses on the other? Can they play the system by taking advantage of the fact that they live in one jurisdiction but their business is on the other side of the Border? In this way they may avoid a potential CAB investigation.
The issue of alcohol is important when dealing with addiction services. Those who provide alcohol addiction services are being given the moneys they deserve. It seems they do not warrant the same priority as drug addiction services because they are not part of the national drugs strategy. Many have said alcohol is a drug and that it is a major factor in many suicides. Ireland is first or second in the European suicide league table. Alcohol or drug use may cause people to do things they would not do if they had not taken such substances.
Senator Feighan spoke about the threat of drugs to the economy. When I was abroad recently, I saw a poster which read "God invented alcohol to stop the Irish from conquering the world". I ask the Minister of State to make sense of the many comments and questions.
I thank members for their comments. Senator Feighan spoke about a review. We have a seven year strategy. Opposition Members sometimes claim the Government sanctions reviews to prevent it from having to make decisions. One could say there is no need for a review of the existing strategy but we always intended to have one. As it is the first national drugs strategy, it makes sense to have such a review. The position is changing. If one does not review whether one is being successful, set new targets and develop a new focus, one will be accused of retaining an old agenda. The strategy does not have to be put in the bin. It will not be because it is a good and sound strategy. It is a case of developing a new focus and setting new targets, although I accept reviews and committees are sometimes established for another purpose.
I do not think the Department has received the report on sport and the arts prepared by Deputies English and O'Malley. I ask them to ensure it is sent to us. We do not control all the Department's drugs funding. Almost half of the money available to us is allocated to the young people's facilities and services fund through the local drugs task forces and the regional drugs forces. Almost 450 projects are being pursued under the fund. We have spent between €75 million and €80 million in the last five or six years.
Capital funds have been allocated for facilities, mainly in big suburbs of Dublin, where houses were built 25 years ago without suitable facilities being put in place. There is not much point in telling kids in disadvantaged areas not to take drugs if one cannot point them in the direction of an alternative. Many such places have suffered from a lack of facilities or infrastructure. Sports and youth centres have been provided to encourage young people to engage in healthy activities and steer them away from drugs. The problems encountered in this regard not only relate to the capital cost of providing such facilities but also to the fact that it can be expensive to run some of the services in question. If a grant is given to a GAA club, for example, the club will run its services without further assistance. There is no point in building youth centres if one does not ensure they are staffed. They need to be open and available to the public.
We should look at new ways of staffing such centres. Many would work in them if resources were made available to build them in the first place.
We have built centres. It depends on the size and scale. In the last year I have opened three or four big centres in Donnycarney, John Paul II Park in Cabra, St. Catherine's on the south side of Dublin and Finglas. Between €18 million and €20 million was spent last year. We need to consider the cost of staffing them on an ongoing basis. If they are small, they can be staffed by voluntary workers. Many are in parts of the west of the city in which there were very poor facilities. I agree that we need to get people involved in sport. While we have organised some arts projects, the schemes are mainly related to sport or youth. Under the prevention pillar we are trying to direct people away from being at risk.
One can talk about many supply issues. We met gardaí at all the meetings we attended throughout the country. Every division has a drugs unit.
Do they have access to a drugs unit?
They all have drugs units.
They have access to one drugs unit per region. They do not have enough drugs units or resources.
Are there enough gardaí?
Whether there are enough gardaí is a more general issue. Depending on who one listens to, it is not so much the number of gardaí as how one uses them. They all have drugs units but whether they have the absolute expertise to carry out detailed searches and so forth is another matter. The issue of the use of dogs has come up in discussions with the Garda. Many gardaí would like to have more dogs because they are often better than human eyes.
Are they used by the customs service or the Garda?
Both services use them.
There seemed to be a controversy about this. Walking one's dog in an area where one thought something else was going on would appear to be innocuous. However, the customs service stated it would have to get clearance from the Garda to use a dog.
A few years ago one heard about problems between the two agencies but the co-ordination and working together are better now. The Chairman asked if there were yachts arriving on the south coast with cannabis. I do not believe it is happening to the same extent. It is a changing scene. I was in Cork a few months ago where the customs service took delivery of a fabulous new cutter or some type of fast boat. It now has better equipment. Until then its members had to drive along the headland and if something was seen, they had to set off in a little inflatable. Now the service has a cutter which allows officers to travel at a speed of 40 knots or so.
The scene and the way drugs come into the country have changed. There are different routes for different drugs. I believe it was mainly cannabis from north Africa that was used at the time. Heroin comes mainly from Afghanistan and cocaine from Colombia. They come through Spain and Amsterdam. Somebody spoke about the action taken and how supplies were altered after the killing of Veronica Guerin. That is true.
It is true because it was a priority of the Government. This is not.
Not quite. The Criminal Assets Bureau legislation was passed by the Dáil at that time and it turned up the heat on many of the big dealers and suppliers. These are wealthy businessmen in many cases. At the time they had plenty of property but the CAB has been successful in confiscating it. Many of them are not living in big houses any more. They are more likely——
It was not just because of the CAB. It was a priority of the Government to stamp out drugs. This was not limited to the use of the CAB. Resources were given to it. The Government watched the problem and——
The Deputy has a point. However, my point is that in the midst of that pressure some of the big suppliers had to uproot themselves and change their modus operandi and so forth. Many of them are now living in Spain. They do not own property here. They run a different type of operation. They had to refocus.
There is another point. It is not just about the Garda. Gardaí get frustrated too at times. The representatives of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors spoke mainly about the position in Leinster. Deputy Kelly has mentioned court cases in which the case was made that these were just innocent men who had fallen by the wayside because they needed a few quick quid, that they were from decent families and so forth. Gardaí have expressed frustration that after doing a great deal of work, some courts and district judges are soft touches in certain cases. I am not aware of the different District Court routes but this sergeant was from the Leinster area and I believe he was talking about Arklow, Carlow, Portlaoise, Longford, Tullamore and other main towns in Leinster. There is a bigger drugs problem in some towns than in others which, according to the Garda, is related to the sentences being imposed. Gardaí mentioned one town where three out of four people were being convicted while in another, in a different district judge's schedule, there was a more lenient attitude in every case. As far as the Garda is concerned, the amount of drugs in the town is related to the standards being set in the courts. Everybody has a role in this and each judge must look at every case on its merits. However, there is no logical reason one town should always be relaxed in its attitude while another should be hardline.
What role, if any, does the Judiciary have in the review? I am aware that the last thing judges wish to be told is how to conduct their court cases. However, is there a role in the review for judges to express their opinions or for people's opinions to be expressed to them?
We have been exposed to many views. Some might not be in the strategy but I will talk to my ministerial colleagues about some of the actions. What we are doing in the strategy is co-ordinating the different actions. This does not stop Departments, through their agencies, from taking other actions. These are views that have come across. As well as having gardaí, mandatory sentencing and allowing individual courts discretion, the information coming across is that different district judges in different towns interpret the issue in different ways.
The strategy ends up as a joint product of the various Departments, mainly the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Health and Children and Education and Science. All the issues will be discussed. It comes down to Departments agreeing targets to be achieved.
We are going around in circles and not saying anything.
I am sorry if I am being vague. I will try to answer more of the Deputy's questions.
We could spend all night talking. On the last point, the Minister of State talked about sentences and judges as if we were not in control. The Government runs the country. Only 10% of offenders are being given the mandatory sentence and the Minister of State confirmed that this was a problem. However, we discuss it as if we cannot do anything about it. Who is in charge? It is not the Minister of State. Is it the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform?
I believe all the answers are in the strategy but there is a lack of enthusiasm, effort and urgency to implement it. The strategy represents a commitment from the Government. Nobody can give me a reason the money from the CAB is not being ring-fenced to tackle the drugs problem. I do not doubt the Minister of State's sincerity on this issue but if the Government wishes to solve the problem, it will commit resources to a strategy that will work. However, that is missing. When we table parliamentary questions, the issue comes back to funding. It is hard for the Minister of State to say this but I will say it — the funding is not available to back up the strategy.
There is the issue of the separation of powers. The Houses pass laws, the Garda enforces them and the judges interpret them. That is how the system works. I am simply pointing out what different arms believe. With regard to funding, dealing with drugs is a priority of the Government. Considerable funding is being allocated. Last year, which was a difficult one, we received an increase of 5% in our funding. The committee scheduled this meeting for 10 a.m. but if it had been scheduled for 4 p.m., I might have been able to give members more information.
I hope the Minister of State is right.
Is the Minister of State optimistic or pessimistic?
I am most optimistic. With regard to funding and setting up the regional drugs task forces, one cannot really come forward with plans on the first day. It was important that they got to know what was happening in their areas and had time to weld together. Their members came from different backgrounds. None of the plans has yet hit my desk.
The Minister of State should not be happy with that or settle for it.
The Minister of State should be afforded the courtesy of being allowed to continue speaking without being interrupted once he has started speaking. The Minister of State can speak as often and for as long as he likes, but can we conduct our business in an orderly manner? Deputy English continues to interrupt the Minister of State.
A Deputy
He is enthusiastic.
I am in a hurry and will have to leave soon.
The Government is enthusiastic and serious. The Minister of State is enthusiastic, so much so that he prepared a report that he did not even include in the drugs strategy.
Order, please.
I agree with the Chairman that there should be order.
We will learn this afternoon the urgency with which the Government is treating this matter.
It was important for the regional drugs task forces to come together to examine the problems in their areas, identify gaps in the provision of services and to put forward structured plans on how these problems could be solved. They have been working as interim co-ordinators and their plans will come forward in the next few months. Following this evening's announcement, we expect that the plans will be funded, although not with effect from this evening, as none of them have come in. When they come in they will have to be examined and evaluated. I envisage the first of them will probably be up and running by late spring or early summer and they will be funded. The money is being provided for that. I cannot give the Deputy he exact number of millions of euros being allocated or the percentages, but it is far in excess of last year's allocation of 5% — it is into double figures, so to speak.
I apologise for interrupting but I am rushing because I have a doctor's appointment. If what the Minister of State said comes to pass this afternoon that will be fair enough. I hope that what the Minister of State said will happen this afternoon does happen.
I presume the Minister of State has a fair idea of what will happen.
I am sure he has.
Addressing the drugs problem is not only a question of adequate funding. It is a major problem. All we can do is provide services to treat people etc. but there are many other factors involved.
I will ask the Minister of State to finish his contribution and if members have questions he can then take them.
Alcohol abuse is also a problem. I note the different views about whether the two strategies should be linked or amalgamated. That question has been raised a number of times. Senator Feighan has given the opposing view, which would have been a major view, particularly in Dublin. If we tried to link a response to those two problems ten years ago, people would have said we were watering down the importance of the drugs strategy. Under some of the pillars, for example, that of prevention, it makes sense to have certain co-operation or links. If one is a schoolteacher or a youth worker, one talks to young people about the dangers of addiction. It does not make sense to give young people a lecture today on the dangers of alcohol and tomorrow on the dangers of drugs. Under the pillar of prevention, there are certain links. There may be a case for having links rather than calling these approaches addiction strategies.
Deputy O'Shea or other members mentioned polydrug use. Five or six years ago people took one drug or another but now there is polydrug use. Suppliers will sell whatever they have. Many hardened drug users will use anything available, be it alcohol, heroin, cocaine, valium or a mixture of all of them. Deputy Kelly referred to people being aggressive having taken alcohol. People know their capacity for drink. They may know their capacity for drugs and can build up certain knowledge of it, provided they know the strength of the substance they are taking. At least one knows the alcohol volume of a bottle of lager. It is always the same strength. One cannot be sure about the strength of drugs because nobody knows from which laboratory, back garden or garage they came. The danger posed by taking a mixture of substances is a major problem we face.
At least heroin is now labelled a loser's drug. Many young people in disadvantaged areas would not take it as young people did previously because it is labelled as such. However, different perceptions and urban myths surround other drugs. People think that cocaine is a safe, clean drug. It is anything but that. It is very dangerous. Mixed with alcohol, it can bring on severe bouts of anxiety, depression or aggression. There is no doubt that a mixture of drink and cocaine leads to ferocious aggression and such outbreaks are not predictable. The effect of taking such a mixture differs from person to person as does the effect of each such mixture from night to night. There are severe health problems associated with taking such substances. A major challenge facing us is to get the message across that these are not safe drugs. They might be considered clean compared to a drug people inject, but they have a serious effect on health, more so in the long term than in the short term. Such drugs are not as much "in your face". People might think they can play with what they would label a recreational drug on a Friday or a Saturday night, but they can quickly become dependent on it and not be able to function without it. While heroin might be used very much by people from disadvantaged backgrounds, people from all walks of life have fallen foul of cocaine, as also happens in the case of alcohol. There are no social or income boundaries. The regional drugs task forces will be up and running and funded.
Deputy O'Shea mentioned family support. That is an area on which we can make further advances. Even last week, the NACD published a report on family support. There are enormous resources in terms of different groups offering such support. Representatives of the NACD indicated that there are approximately 2,000 groups dealing with family support but they are inclined to operate under separate headings be it drugs, youth, alcohol , education, health etc. The representatives of the NACD said that while there is always a need for specialist family support, in many cases the different agencies deal with different members of a family in addressing different problems. They are seeking the up-skilling of staff in family support groups to enable them to deal with a broad range of issues up to a certain level. If a parent whose 15 year old son is using cannabis approaches one of us, addressing such a young person's problem would not necessarily need the guidance of a high brow addiction counsellor. A member of a family support group who might be dealing with other members of such a young person's family should be able to give some general and family support up to a certain level before one would have to avail of services at the expert level. There is a tendency among family support groups to classify themselves as dealing with health issues or other specific issues and referring people who present with problems to other people. There is a need for better co-ordination of different family support groups. There may also be a need for more support groups. The NACD's report was interesting. It refers to maximising what we have, up-skilling the members of support groups and giving such workers the confidence to deal with the drugs issue. Perhaps we have created a mystique around drugs such that people feel they cannot adequately deal with the drugs problem.
Methadone is the most widely used substitute treatment for drug addiction. There is another one, subutex-buprenorphine, which is used in France. The Irish Medicines Board, which authorises the use of these drugs has not authorised the use of that here yet. It would be for people who have been stabilised. It is taken in tablet form, one every second day. It would be suitable for people who are driven and have become more stabilised. The tablet is dissolved under the tongue. It could not be given out at clinics to the same extent as the other substitute treatment. There are some trials taking place with other types of treatment. However, there is no substitute treatment for cocaine addiction.
The treatment for cocaine addiction includes one to one counselling, behavioural therapy and, on occasion, alternative treatment such as acupuncture and so on is used but chemical liquid treatment is not available. That is the problem.
Several other points were made but they were the main ones. There are more gardaí on the streets and there is a drugs unit in every area, although I am not saying they have all the necessary equipment. I agree it is our job to provide the resources. The problem is becoming more widespread. We have the local drugs task forces on the ground and under the four pillars I hope more action can be taken.
I think a question was asked on the Criminal Assets Bureau.
Is there a cross-Border link?
We have been one of the leaders in terms of the CAB. Many other countries are following our lead, as we know from various delegations who have come here. On the ring-fencing of CAB money, when the CAB confiscates money it is not released to anybody for seven years. It is only recently that CAB money is now being released. Some countries directly ring-fence such moneys. We have a British-Irish Council on drugs where people from the six or seven different Administrations meet. Some of them have a system whereby money from the confiscation of assets is directed into services but, so far, not much has come out of the confiscation fund. I am happy that resources are coming from the Department of Finance. If funds were ring-fenced, however, there would be a danger that the Department of Finance might not continue to provide funding. It depends on how much is coming out of that fund but so far very little has come out because of the seven year rule. Once we are ahead of the posse, so to speak, in what we are getting from the Department of Finance, I would be happy but some countries have a system whereby the funds are directly targeted.
I will ask my official about cross-Border co-operation. It appears there is none but we can ascertain the information.
That might have to be a recommendation in the strategy——
There is much co-operation generally across police forces and the drugs squad and others have close operational contacts with the police forces in the Netherlands and Spain in particular. They have contacts also with the police force in Turkey and in the routes out of Afghanistan, through Iran and Tajikistan. There are many contacts across routes, but other countries are following our lead in terms of CAB. Their processes might not be as refined as we would wish but they are getting there.
This is one of the most serious issues affecting this country. When there were threats to the security of the State we pulled out all the stops yet the Minister appears to be satisfied with the extra 5% funding last year.
I am never satisfied.
It is likely he will get substantially more this year. We will have to wait for that.
It was twice the 5%. The second figure was 10%.
It was not twice; it was three times as much.
Regardless of that, the proceeds a drug pusher can gain are 1,000% and we must take that into account in terms of dealing with this serious issue. We talk about education but what we need are deterrents. People do not stop drink driving because they could kill somebody. They are afraid of losing their licence or spending a year in prison. The same applies to littering in the countryside, for which fines are now imposed. We need major deterrents in this area because this problem is a threat to the future prosperity of our country, and we should not be satisfied with additional funding of 10% or 12%. The funding should be doubled because this problem is a threat to the State. I ask the Minister of State to talk to the Minister for Finance, and other people he knows, with a view to getting the funding to deal with this serious threat.
We are getting into repetition in regard to that. To take the example of smoking, we could say that treating smoking-related illnesses costs X amount and that as a result we cannot do this or that in other areas. Legislation does help, and we have the legislation to deal with this problem. We need a good increase in funding but because the plans are not in place we do not know the exact amount that needs to be drawn down. The solution may be in the implementation of existing legislation and having a serious attitude to the strategy. Regardless of what the Minister of State decides to do in respect of the alcohol aspect of the focus, perhaps he could come before the committee again in a few months to outline the direction he intends to go in regard to this review.
I will bring the meeting to a conclusion. The exchange has been useful to the members and I trust it has also been useful for the Minister of State. We will send information on the reports we have already done and a transcript of the proceedings to the Minister.
Under Any Other Business, the timing of these meetings at 10 a.m. is not convenient for those of us in the Seanad. The Order of Business is important to Senators.
We are in the same position. We were called to a vote today but we have to facilitate people when they are available. The majority of our meetings are not at this time but that was not possible on this occasion. I thank the Minister of State and his officials for attending.
The joint committee adjourned at 11.40 a.m. sine die.