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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 26 Oct 2005

Arts in the Community: Presentations.

We have two separate groups of witnesses today, the first being the Balor Developmental Community Arts Group from Donegal, namely, Ms Joanna Parkes and Ms Orla Hasson. They will show us a DVD on drama in action and make some comments to which we can react.

I must declare my interest. While they are in the constituency of Deputy McGinley rather than my own, they have been working a great deal in the Finn Valley area of Donegal, and I have seen at first hand what they can do. It was then that I decided that it would be worthwhile bringing them to see us as a committee. Probably they would have been happier had we gone to see them in action in Ballybofey — perhaps lá eile.

We are guaranteed entertainment.

Our technology is moving on at such a fast pace that the DVD will be presented on screen. They might not realise it, but they have achieved a technological breakthrough on behalf of the committee. We are moving into whatever century we were already in. I will hand over to Ms Parkes.

Ms Joanna Parkes

Ms Orla Hasson and I work for Balor Developmental Community Arts Group. I thank the committee for the opportunity to discuss the work we are doing in County Donegal. Our community arts group runs a number of programmes in working with young people, young teenage parents and older people.

Today we wish to discuss our primary school project Drama in Action. Members have been circulated with our report. This is a timely project, of which we are very proud. We in County Donegal are ahead of the rest of the country in the preparations we have made for the introduction of drama as a core subject in the primary curriculum. This project has been running in primary schools in the county for four years. Both teachers and pupils have had an opportunity to engage in creative ways of learning by using drama as a teaching tool and have become familiar with this way of working. Drama will come on stream as part of the curriculum for all primary schoolchildren.

As members will see from the film that will be shown in a few minutes, what we are talking about is not necessarily putting on a play, an end-of-year performance or a school concert but using drama as a way to engage the children's interest and creativity in order that they want to learn. They have a stimulus for what they are doing. It is also a very good way for children to learn social skills, interact with each other and deal with problems that might arise in the course of the drama session.

There is a significant demand for this type of work in County Donegal. We sent out a questionnaire to all 177 schools across the county and of the schools that responded, 95% stated they would like to have somebody come into schools to support them in their introduction of drama as part of the curriculum. As I am the only person doing this work, I can only get to a small percentage of the schools in the county. Teachers have expressed their interest and there is a real demand for this type of programme which could be run as a pilot project for other counties. As drama is due to come on stream as a subject, what we do could be an example of good practice. Other counties might be interested in developing this work in the coming years.

The reason we have created the DVD and issued this report now is that we have been very well supported by our local area partnership, DLDC, in recent years, but that funding is due to end or be reduced at the end of this year. We are in the process of trying to secure mainstream funds. Last week we submitted a proposal to the Arts Council for revenue funding for Balor Arts Centre, for the venue and developmental community arts group.

The DVD is 12 minutes long. One will see work being work in the classroom — children engaging in the drama process. The teachers and children respond and react to what they are doing. The DVD puts our work in context and makes clear how this type of drama programme works. Members will have the opportunity to ask questions and have matters clarified afterwards. We will now play the DVD.

I am familiar with the DVD. The work being done is tremendous. We conducted a similar study on music in County Donegal, of which the delegates are aware. One of the issues that arose was that teachers wanted support. The teachers shown on the DVD were happy to get involved. Do teachers normally tend to get involved? Are schools embracing chaos and creativity or are they afraid of what looks like chaos but is actually creativity when dealing with the arts? Were the delegates involved in the compilation of the artist-in-school guidelines drawn up by the Arts Council?

Ms Parkes

Yes.

If the arts are to be included in the curriculum, as is the case with music, would there be value in having a pool of theatrical artists, musicians and visual artists in a county who could work together and make cumulative applications, or do the delegates think artists are so individualistic that they would prefer that those involved in the theatre stayed with theatre, that those involved in music stayed with music and so on? There is money available in County Donegal and the music co-ordinator is trying to develop a music programme. Individuals with an interest in the visual arts are asking how they can secure central funding to become involved in schools. Do the delegates believe there is a possibility of having a loose umbrella group which could receive funding as one entity rather than 25?

I welcome the delegates who have travelled a long distance from County Donegal. I was very impressed by what they showed us on the DVD. A picture says so much more than words. It is obvious the children were enjoying themselves very much. As a former teacher, I have some idea of the important role that drama can play in education. It gives children self-confidence in expressing themselves. Any inhibitions they have will go. It is a great training and I hope the time will come soon when it is an essential part of the curriculum for all schools. I believe we are heading in that direction. The approach demonstrated by the Balor group is suitably tailored towards the requirements of the modern day curriculum. Many years ago the curriculum was entirely teacher-centred. Within the last 20 years and particularly in recent times it has become child-centred. This is really child-centred and fits into modern education philosophy.

The Balor Theatre has been a beacon of culture in the Finn Valley for 20 years or more. I know the company goes around the schools in the area and does not confine its activities to a particular building. It is confined to Donegal at the moment. What is the uptake and does it travel throughout the entire county?

This is pioneering work which I hope other counties will follow. It is funded by the Arts Council and I understand that Peace and Reconciliation has always contributed. Is it assured of continuing funding for this very worthy project? As regards Balor Theatre, Ballybofey and Stranorlar, is there a cross-Border dimension to its activities? Northern Ireland is just across the river and it would be an ideal way to build relations among young people on both sides of the Border. Obviously I know the area very well.

Does the theatre get departmental recognition for its work? I know drama is envisaged as part of the curriculum in every school in the future. What is the Department's current attitude towards it and that of its inspectors? Is time being allocated and is it done within school hours? How is the Balor group treated and what is the role of teachers? Are they present in a supervisory capacity when the theatre comes to a school? Is there any assistance, financial or otherwise, from the Department or is it solely dependent on the Arts Council and Peace and Reconciliation? These are just a number of initial questions.

I recognise the school, I think. Is it Stranorlar?

Ms Parkes

Yes, it is Stranorlar.

I know that school well. My last question is about whether the company is bilingual or English only. In a significant number of Gaeltacht schools in Donegal, everything is done through the medium of Irish. Does it go to these schools?

When I was a teacher we used to enter these dramas every year at the Oireachtas Féile Drámaíochta Scoile. We often came to Dublin and it was the highlight of the year. If students, on leaving school, could recall nothing else, they remembered being in the play at least. The trick is to get everyone in the class participating and not to pick out individuals. They all love to be involved. It is a great idea.

I, too, welcome both ladies. I found the DVD very impressive. Like Deputy McGinley, I am a former national teacher. It is quite obvious that the children were enjoying themselves and benefiting from the experience. My questions are pretty much in line with those Deputy McGinley asked — I suppose teachers think the same way. What sort of funding has the group been getting up to now and what does it hope to get in future from the Arts Council? In general, how does it see its role? Is it a case of coming to a school, doing the ground work and moving on or is there a continuing involvement with schools? The cross-Border dimension is obviously important.

In my own time as a teacher I recall seeing a programme on creative writing which I used afterwards. It was about encouraging the children to look at an incident from many viewpoints. For instance, one started with a picture of some action event. The one I got initially depicted a boy fishing from a tree on the banks of a pond who fell in. The story was written from his point of view, from the viewpoint of the tree and that of the pond. Perspective was developed in that way. The Chairman's question about art and whether there was segregation prompts me to suggest that this is not the best way, perhaps. Various aspects of art may be combined once matters are moving.

I recall a child at one time who was particularly good at a specific aspect of craftwork. I gave him the job of teaching everybody else how to do it. There are many aspects to be considered and it is possible to improvise in all types of ways.

Certainly, what I have seen today would be a valuable input to a school. That type of input has to come from the outside initially, but it can be developed from there. I am most impressed with the work and wish the company continuing success. May its application to the Arts Council be successful.

I join my colleagues in welcoming the ladies. I am at something of a disadvantage in that I do not come from Donegal. I am at a particular disadvantage since it is about 40 years since I was in a primary school classroom. Looking around the room, I believe Deputy Kelly and myself are the only two non-teachers here. I will be forgiven, therefore, for the amateur nature of the questioning.

First, I must thank Balor for the DVD presentation. It certainly is very graphic and a powerful means of communicating. It is the first time we have had it and it has certainly done the presentation an enormous service, because it would be too difficult to get it across in words. I have three questions for Balor. What does it see as the logical next step in the development of the project? What has been the reaction of individual teachers and, in particular, the INTO? What can the committee do for the group?

I, too, was very impressed with the presentation. I come from Listowel where there are seven drama groups and a thriving under-age dramatic society. It is very much part of the culture of the town and that part of north Kerry. There is a drama group in every village and town. However, it is not really happening in the schools. Certainly, the Seanchaí Centre in Listowel is something of a catalyst, driving the whole literary and dramatic product in north Kerry. We are seeking ways to penetrate the schools in the area to continue this great drama tradition. The first north Kerry play inthe Abbey Theatre was in 1909, a GeorgeFitzmaurice play, The Country Dressmaker, one of the greatest successes the Abbey ever had. The play was based in north Kerry. Therefore, there is a tradition.

I would like to get a copy of the Balor DVD and to show it to the people down there. Perhaps the group might visit us some time and use this as a model for getting drama into all the schools in north Kerry. It is in some of the schools already, but only on a casual, ad hoc basis. Somebody might do it for a season only, but with no continuous funding for the next season. That has happened in one case where somebody has done a very good job in the local special school. This has major applications for special needs children. I have seen this happening. They can achieve so much from it and derive such personal satisfaction, as do their parents in working with them. However, it is not happening this year because they did not have the funding. If the group could visit the area some time in the future, I would certainly organise it.

The important issue is funding for the future. When something is started expectations are raised, children enjoy it and they want to develop the theme as they move up along the various classes. Is there a guarantee of funding for the group? Does the delegation consider it can continue this programme up to sixth class and afterwards into the secondary schools in the area?

Ms Parkes

I thank the committee for its positive comments and also the questions raised. Funding has been mentioned by many individuals. We have been well supported by Donegal Local Development Company for the past four years. It has funded our education plan or project to almost 100%. We have also received funding from the health promotion unit of the Health Service Executive to work with groups of foreign national children and also to work with older people outside the school context. The Donegal Local Development Company, our local area partnership, was progressive in being able to see the value of this project four years ago. Donegal Local Development Company is now getting to the point where the nature of the partnership will change next year at one level but it is seeking to support other projects and to move funding elsewhere.

We are at a stage where we would like to be able to offer a child drama input all the way from primary school to secondary school. My colleague also works in post-primary schools. We would like to be able to offer that opportunity to every child in Donegal. That would be our dream but we are constantly faced with short-term funding, perhaps for six months, and we then have to reapply for funding for a further six months. That is the issue we are addressing at present. We have not looked only to the Arts Council.

Another project, which Ms Hasson will deal with, is funded by the Peace and Reconciliation Fund. We do a certain amount of cross-Border work but the problem is that the school curriculum in the North is slightly different from that in the Republic. While it would be great to go into schools in the North, that would almost be a doubling of the number of schools we are trying to serve. Initially the project was set up to help teachers in the Republic become familiar with drama techniques before drama comes on the primary school curriculum. In a way it might dilute our services but we may have to look at that option.

Ms Orla Hasson

If we were to go cross-Border that would make the project more attractive to bigger funding and, perhaps, American funding, but the focus of the programme is to support teachers in the Republic who have to put drama on the curriculum. It would be a shame to change the nature of a perfectly brilliant programme. Teachers telephone us almost every day of every week asking if Ms Parkes will come and deliver the programme in their school in Donegal. In terms of the Gaeltacht, we definitely want to move into that area and that may attract another area of funding. Another element of work in the Balor Development Community Arts Group is work with young people and teen parents.

The funding we have had for the past three years from the Peace and Reconciliation Fund is coming to an end in December and we are entering another phase of funding. That phase is seen as making an exciting partnership with an organisation called Border Arts, based in Castlederg, Northern Ireland. The Balor DCAG has focused on drama and music also but mainly on drama and film. Border Arts is more into carnival, circus, music — traditional, samba and so on. An exciting partnership is happening and funding will come for that element of the project.

Ms Parkes

A question was asked about the role of teachers in a school. Out of an average of 12 teachers I visit, probably four would be as involved as the teacher on the DVD who was actively participating in the drama with me. Another third may be watching at the side and taking notes. The final third just leave me to it and will not necessarily be engaging with what is happening. I am trying to focus on teachers who have an interest in drama.

To a certain extent, what I am trying to do is put myself out of a job because I would like to see the teachers becoming confident by doing in-service training. When somebody asked what was the next step we said training of teachers and freelance drama facilitators and artists. I cannot physically get to every school in Donegal but by training the teachers they will feel confident in what they do in drama. By training artists, actors and drama facilitators we can devise a number of programmes which they can deliver in the schools. Those are some of the next stages down the line.

I am seeking to support the teachers who come for in-service training. They have some interest as they have given up some of their time to do the training. Given that they are already interested they will be engaged. It is much more satisfying to work on that basis. In the drama sessions the children are learning in many different ways. They are using all their speaking and listening skills, there is a great deal of co-operating and listening to each other. The teacher who is on the ball can sit there and tick so many boxes and say they have done this, that and the other but the teacher who does not notice misses out on so much.

The lesson the committee saw on the DVD of the two factions — the people in the forest and the people in the village — is the entirety of a section in their social, personal and health education about themselves and the wider world. They were doing the job of the UN negotiating over land ownership, how they would share the land and what compromises they would arrive at. A teacher who takes note can remind his or her class when dealing with the history of an area in conflict of what was done in the drama and how the issue was solved. I am keen to work with the teachers who make those connections because it is much more satisfying for them and they notice the children learning in another way. Often the children who fail in academic terms are really involved and come up with ideas. I might say that a particular child is great and that she has great ideas. The teacher would say that is interesting as that child is one of the weaker children in the class. If the teacher is not there watching, he or she misses all that and does not see the child working. I like working with teachers who have that interest and engagement with the drama.

In terms of artists coming together, one of my dreams would be to have a corps of artists. I would like to work with a visual artist and with a musician in a school. It is a fantastic way to share ideas and the children see that things are not all separate. What is so good about learning through the arts is that one can learn about every aspect. It is not a case of English, geography, history all being separate but they can include maths, music and so on. Even in primary school where subjects are differentiated, where Irish is taught at 9.15 a.m. and could not possibly be taught at 2.50 p.m. or whatever, it is great if the subjects can come together in that way. The education centres could be a place to which visual artists, dramatists and musicians could go and where there would be a pool of artists working. Balor DGAG works with musicians and visual artists.

The schools we visit are situated in the DLDC area which covers all of County Donegal apart from the Gaeltacht and the Inishowen Peninsula. The area covered extends from the Fanad Peninsula to Lifford and the Glenties. It is a large area.

On departmental recognition of the programme, the local education centre has given us some support and I have provided in-service training for its teachers. While they have paid for that training, we have not worked directly with the Department of Education and Science in any other way.

Ms Hasson

In reply to the question on whether teachers appreciate the chaos caused in holding a drama workshop, while it depends on how one approaches the schools and the sessions, generally, Ms Parkes has been received with nothing but warmth. In a small percentage of cases teachers are shocked at being asked to move desks and what we will do. However, the vast majority are welcoming and obliging because they understand it is okay to create a little chaos because the learning always pays off. They know it is always worth their while.

Ms Parkes

The advantage is that although it seems chaotic, it is cleaner than the visual arts. Some teachers are frightened when paint and plaster are involved but at least with drama all that is needed is space; we do not wreck the carpets or get paint on the walls.

Ms Hasson

To move to the next step, one ideal and dream we have, especially for this programme, is that there would be the equivalent of Ms Parkes in each county. In that way, providing training in Listowel would be easy because Ms Parkes would have trained whatever number would be required to go out to develop the programme in the way outlined. We will develop it in County Donegal through the training of artists, actors, facilitators and teachers.

Has the group had any interaction with the INTO?

Ms Parkes

I was thinking of writing an article for the INTO magazine In Touch, but have not yet got around to it. I have made a note to do so and it would be a good road to go down.

As a musician, I used to believe everybody had to study music to become a musician or be interested in going to a concert. I have come full circle and now believe music is something from which everybody can benefit. I also believed nobody could teach music other than a musician until I did my PGCE when I met a person who taught us everybody had the ability to learn to some level. Therefore, I am very much in tune with what the representatives said, namely, that anyone can teach drama to a certain extent if they are facilitated and given a few ideas; that is not taking from teachers with a qualification in drama or music. Everyone has the potential to do his or her bit if given some support.

The enthusiasm with which the representatives have made their case is refreshing. I note the success Balor has achieved during the years. The representatives are right in pointing out that the group has the specific goal of introducing drama in the classroom. This is such a legitimate programme as structured and stands on its own merits. From our perspective, we can offer to send a letter to the Arts Council in support of the project with a recommendation to the council and the Minister for Education and Science that such projects should be assisted. I assume that is agreed. Agreed.

I thank the representatives for their presentation and ask the representatives of Theatre Forum to join us. This is our day to discuss the benefits of theatre inside and beyond the classroom. We are on a learning curve.

Ms Parkes

I have copies of our presentation which I can give to members.

That would be fantastic. I will take two copies, one for myself and the other for the Arts Council.

I am delighted the representatives of Theatre Forum are present for the last part of the meeting and I am very pleased to welcome them again to another meeting of the committee this year. We tend to have the opportunity to interact with its representatives at least once a year. I welcome Ms Tania Banotti, Mr. Donal Shiels and Mr. Alan Stanford. I ask Ms Banotti to present her association's case.

Ms Tania Banotti

I thank the Chairman and the joint committee for giving us this opportunity. This is the third time in three years — we have made a presentation to the committee once a year — we have come before its members on behalf of the professional performing arts community to give them a flavour of our concerns and the burning issues. I introduce Mr. Alan Stanford and Mr. Donal Shiels who will tell them a little about themselves. Mr. Shiels is the current chairperson of Theatre Forum, chief executive of the St. Patrick's Festival company and was involved in the Irish festival in China last year, in which some of the members were involved and attended. Mr. Stanford probably needs no introduction as he is one of our leading actors and theatre directors.

On why we are here, we represent the representative association for every theatre and arts centre; each theatre, contemporary dance, contemporary music and opera company and the main arts festivals. It is our job to be the collective voice for the performing arts. We have only four or five key points to make today. I have a handout that I will circulate at the end of the meeting. We do not have an economic report or a presentation to make on audiences, as we had in previous years. This is a snapshot of where matters stand.

It will not surprise the members to hear that we are spread throughout the country, that this is a labour intensive sector and that this has been quite a good year for audiences. We had the Dublin Theatre Festival earlier this month, during which some 32,000 people attended shows in Dublin over the ten days of the festival. During the years it has become one of the main theatre festivals in Dublin and is recognised as being of a very high standard.

One of the main issues we want to discuss is the budget for the arts at national level, the crisis in touring and the situation facing arts centres in members' constituencies. We will be happy to answer specific questions. We have a particular issue in regard to the budget. This is the third time we have come before the committee and we will talk a little about the issue of VAT. I sat in on a meeting last week at which the Arts Council made a presentation to the committee. We want to say something about cultural tourism and matters on which we may or may not fully agree with the Arts Council in order that members get a full flavour of where matters stand.

I will start by raising the matter of the national budget for the arts. The issue of an adequate budget for the performing arts at national level still needs to be addressed. We want the Government to place such funding on a better footing. We need a better public subsidy if we are to survive and prosper. From our previous submissions to the committee, members will be aware that only one third of the budget for the performing arts comes from the State. Two thirds of our income is generated either at the box office or by sponsorship from the business community.

The Arts Council grant from the Government is of critical importance to the survival and growth of the performing arts. For this reason we fully support the council's call for a grant of €79.3 million in 2006. We believe this figure is somewhat modest, especially when one considers that every art form from the traditional arts, painting, sculpture, theatre, dance, poetry, contemporary music, jazz, opera, circus to every theatre, arts centre, arts festival, individual artist and marching band, some of which were mentioned by Deputies last week — in other words, everything — must be funded out of its budget of €61 million. Therefore, a 30% increase is on the modest side if the council is to stand any chance of meeting the demands for support. It is not the first time we have emphasised to this committee that, contrary to popular belief and statements by elected representatives, Ireland supports its cultural industries quite modestly. We rank in the lowest third of support per capita for the arts in the EU. That includes the most recent accession countries.

The picture at local level is patchy. Certain local authorities are supportive but it depends to a great extent on the city and county manager. Although there are arts officers in every county, if the county manager is not supportive, there is little they can do. The picture varies greatly across the country. There is also the issue of other Departments funding the arts. The Department of Education and Science gives little support, be it in the implementation of the drama curriculum in schools or in other areas.

Last week a Deputy asked the Arts Council what it was doing about the arts in hospitals. I wondered how the Arts Council was expected to cover that out of €60 million. The committee needs to take a much more active stance in getting these Departments to see where their role might be. The Department of Health and Children's budget is 15 times that of the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism. Asking us to do things without that Department's support is unrealistic.

Mr. Stanford wishes to talk to the committee about touring and arts centres and to follow up on the point made by Ms Olive Braiden last week about what more could be done with a small additional increase. There is an issue with regard to the relationship between fixed costs and the costs of producing shows.

There is a vote in the House. Members of the committee can informally pair for the vote so the meeting can continue.

I must attend an important unveiling shortly. I am sorry I must leave.

Mr. Alan Stanford

Apart from being an actor and director, I speak to the committee from the perspective of operating a company that does national tours with large-scale productions. A second agency of the company is involved in the education sector. It tours productions of plays from the second level curriculum for the leaving certificate. Funding comes from the Arts Council. The Department of Education and Science does not have or, at any rate, has never allocated funding towards that aspect of the education process.

I will address the issue of touring and its implications. Since 1996, we have probably opened more arts centres and theatre venues throughout the country than ever before. This has been very worthy and many of the centres are fabulous. It is thanks to the efforts of Members of the Oireachtas to a large degree that such centres have been opened. However, we must face a reality. We have built centres that are sometimes less than economically viable in their size and scope and that are sometimes in areas that do not have the critical mass to produce the level of audience that is required. More importantly, we have provided the buildings but we have not provided anything to put in them. There are centres and theatres throughout the country that have plenty of seats that could be filled but there is nothing to look at because we do not adequately fund touring theatre.

Why touring? Theatre depends on a critical mass of audience attendance to make it viable. One can put on a play for a week at a cost of €150,000 to €250,000 but in that week's box office one might take in perhaps €30,000. That is not viable, as anybody in any walk of life knows. We are familiar with that well used phrase, "There's no business like show business". The word "business" is used twice in that phrase but the word "show" is used once. It is a business. The practitioners of the theatre arts are as conscious of that as anybody. It is a business like any other, such as agriculture, that requires investment to generate activity.

The majority of theatre tours in this country tend to be worthy, good quality but very arty and usually consisting of one, two or three people. We cannot afford to tour the scale of production the residents of Dublin and Cork normally see, due to the density of population, and that Galway has developed due to the advent of Druid. The scale of production that the Abbey Theatre or the Gate Theatre might put on in Dublin cannot be seen by other growing centres of population. These centres are blossoming due to the fact that we have developed a policy of decentralisation and have allowed the regions to develop. Centres such as Waterford, Galway, Limerick and even Donegal, where there has been massive growth around Letterkenny, will never see the quality of main stage productions that can be seen in Dublin or Cork simply because we do not have the resources to make touring there viable.

There has to be a clear determination to fund touring adequately. I do not know how many members of the committee remember that 25 years ago we had the Irish Theatre Company, the national touring theatre. I was on the final board before it was abolished. That addressed the touring issue and main stage, high quality, large-scale productions could be brought around the country. I am not advocating its return. However, there is potential in touring. Where two or three elements are gathered together, be it theatrical managements in Dublin or a group of regional venues, and can secure a funding package that can make a production tour, the type of plays that people who live in Dublin and Cork have the advantage of seeing at the Gate or the Abbey or at the Everyman in Cork can be toured and make those venues and productions viable. Unless a degree of seed funding is allocated to touring, however, it will never happen and centres of population throughout the country will never get the benefit of it.

I wish to make a further point. I will use my theatre company as an example because I know the numbers. If a small theatre company, for example, Second Age Theatre Company, receives a grant which, until the major cutback of a couple of years ago, was around €157,000 — not a lot of money to run a company — it could put on one production a year, a major Shakespeare, with a total employment factor of approximately 25. With the small increase that was given last year of €20,000 we are now putting on two productions and we could put on about two and a quarter of the same scale. For another €25,000 to €30,00 a year, that can increase to three productions.

Each addition of that approximate amount of money means one can increase by a factor of 100% each time the employment potential and, therefore, the audience and revenue potential. Every time we put on a play 30,000 leaving certificate or second level students get the opportunity to experience live theatre. I am sure members of the committee will remember plays they saw when they were in their teens that had an effect on them, kept them going to the theatre and gave them a love of Shakespeare and of the art form. For every €30,000 the theatre company gets, another 30,000 children can go to see a play.

If that is applied to other companies, each small increment that is given, on top of the basic grant that keeps the administration running, potentially increases by 100% the number of plays that can go on the road, attract new audiences and create revenue that can allow more productions to be done. It is a rolling effect. The more plays we put on, the more money we take in and the more plays we can put on. It is a matter of the seed finance coming through.

Mr. Donal Shiels

We estimate that the cost for touring would be approximately €3 million per annum. However, the return on that would be significant. My job at present is chief executive of the St. Patrick's Festival. Before that I was managing the cultural exchange between Ireland and China for two years. It was great to see the strength, depth and the range of work we had when we travelled abroad and how it was received. It was great to see the strength and depth of our range of work when travelling abroad. It was received incredibly well. There is a lot more work to be done in that area.

I have been working on cultural tourism wearing my new hat in connection with the St. Patrick's Festival. Currently, three different groups are working independently on cultural tourism — two of them in Fáilte Ireland and another in the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism. That is typical of the lack of synergy between the disparate groups whereby everybody seems to be working independently. I am also working with a committee of the Dublin Chamber of Commerce on cultural tourism, which is a huge growth area. The contribution to the Dublin economy from the St. Patrick's Festival is €58 million from a funding of €1 million, which is substantial. The Galway arts festival contributed approximately €1 million a day to the local economy. We do not need to labour that point, however.

When I worked on the cultural exchange, it struck me that when this country wants to sell Ireland abroad we turn to the arts to do it — that is the first point of contact. When we want to celebrate, as we do with the various festivals, we turn to the arts. When we want to educate we turn to the arts, yet when it comes to handing out the money, sometimes we are not even in the queue. That needs to be addressed because we should be at the table. We do a good job on delivering and there is a willingness from everybody to continue doing so. The arts sector here has major international appeal providing an all-round benefit to everybody.

One of the problems locally is the disconnect between arts funding and arts provision. If people will not find out about their funding until the end of January 2006, how can they develop a product that tourists can buy into and which links them to the tour operators? From my own experience in dealing with tour operators I know they want the information at least one year, if not two years, in advance. Since we are getting the information only in January for an event that is happening in March, it is impossible.

The argument is that we should not just fund the arts to a better level, but we should also get the money and information to them sooner. We have shown that we can work well with the various Government Departments, including the portfolios of health, the environment and education. There is a willingness to do it, but joining up the dots will make for a much better and healthier situation for everybody.

Ms Banotti

I will leave the committee with two final points. First is the issue of the disconnect between the tourism cycle and the Arts Council cycle. As the chair of the Arts Council told the joint committee last week, the announcement of grant aid for 2006 will be made at the end of January. Effectively, therefore, we are working to an 11-month year, whereas tourism cycles run two or three years in advance. As to how the arts should develop, the theatre community is adamant that it must have multi-annual funding. This is the third year we have said so, but it would allow arts organisations to plan ahead more strategically and ambitiously. It would allow us to give better value for money for the Exchequer because we could then buy things in bulk instead of scrabbling around during an 11-month year. It would also offer better opportunities for artists, which are at the core of what the Arts Council wants.

Ireland is one of the few countries in western Europe that does not offer its key arts organisations what they call in the business a three-year funding envelope. In other words, the Abbey Theatre would be told, "Here is what you're getting for the next three years. Off you go." Apart from being able to offer a fantastic programme for theatre-goers, it would also mean that the Abbey could talk to travel agents to ensure there were block bookings in the summer period. Multi-annual funding is an obvious step, yet time and again we are being told it is not possible. We are hopeful that in the new arts plan, the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, and the Arts Council will recognise the value of multi-annual funding for arts organisations.

My second point concerns value added tax. This year, Cork was the European capital of culture and the Government established Culture Ireland to market Ireland and our arts abroad. It is ironic, however, that we still have this problem whereby any writer, composer, musician or director who comes from outside the 32 counties to perform here is subject to a VAT rate of 21%. On the one hand we want to export our culture, yet we are making it harder for people to come in, so there is not the same level of exchange. I can show how this has affected people in Donegal, for example. I am sure the Chairman is aware of An Grianán Theatre in Letterkenny, which is not even an hour from Derry. Music is hugely popular in Donegal and that theatre features a lot of music from musicians who come from over the Border. If An Grianán is hiring musicians from Donegal, they are paid at one rate, but if the theatre hires musicians from a place half an hour down the road — but across the Border — not only are they paying them in sterling but the Government will slap 21% VAT on top. I appeal to the joint committee in the strongest terms to write to the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism urging them to re-examine the issue of levying VAT on non-resident artists. We are interested not just in exporting the arts but also in cultural exchange. We want the best music, theatre and dance to be shown to Irish audiences in the same way that we want our artists to show the best of what we can do. The VAT issue is hampering a small but defined number of arts organisations, including the West Cork music festival, the Dublin theatre festival and the Dublin fringe theatre festival. It also affects theatres in the Border area, including Monaghan and Donegal, where there is a lot of artistic exchange. They find they must turn down music and theatre shows from over the Border because they cannot afford to pay the VAT bill. That change, if implemented, would represent a very small loss to the Exchequer but it would make a huge difference for us.

Mr. Shiels

I will add another couple of points to those remarks. The VAT issue is a disincentive on the cultural exchange level. If we are supposed to be in Europe with our partners, we should be working to bring these people in instead of having a disincentive. The 21% VAT rate constitutes an unfair assessment. A major rock and roll group can perform here and will be assessed in the same way as a small independent festival or organisation, which is unfair.

The point was made to me that if one gets a grant that includes 20% extra, it is just taking money from and reimbursing it to the same pot.

I was supposed to attend an Oliver St. John Gogarty event at 5 o'clock in a pub in Temple Bar. I was told that if I got there at 6.15 p.m., I might see some of it. I welcome the delegation. Ms Banotti referred to the responsibility of other Departments, including the Department of Education and Science in particular. Following the last meeting, I mentioned to the Arts Council representatives that I would suggest inviting the Secretary General of the Department of Education and Science to address the committee on the arts issue. I will leave that in the capable hands of the Chairman.

On the last occasion I asked the council's representatives about the budget and I was told that the Arts Council is seeking €79.3 million. Some €3 million will go towards a new scheme, entitled DEIS, for the traditional arts. Last year, the Abbey Theatre received €4.5 million, but it will have to get substantially more this year in order to survive, roll out its programme and maybe even tour, as Mr. Stanford mentioned. The Abbey could be seeking an increase of €4 million, which would account for nearly half the annual increase. The increase being sought is very modest in the light of escalating costs. People are trying to develop their programmes taking cost factors into account and if touring is included, there will be an additional cost factor. It is important, therefore, that the minimum should be that amount and we will certainly be making that case to the Minister.

I remember a time when the Red Kettle theatre company was touring all over the country and when the Abbey came down to Tralee. The last time the Abbey players were in Tralee, however, was for John B. Keane's play The Crazy Wall, which is a while ago. A new 520-seat theatre will be opened in Ballybunion next Sunday night. That theatre is ideal and Mr. Micheál Carr will need to get touring groups to fill it. It will be important to the sustainability of good theatre facilities such as those in Portlaoise, Letterkenny, Ennis and Ballybunion that theatre companies like this should tour around the country and also that the Abbey should tour at certain times of the year.

Last year one of the most successful plays at the Dublin Fringe Festival was Dandy Dolls. I tried to get it to Kerry. It would have cost approximately €15,000 and it was not possible. My party, therefore, agrees with Theatre Forum on the issue of touring theatre.

On multi-annual funding, it is difficult to plan for the future without the financial resources to do so. If tourism operators want to include a theatre facility in their itinerary, they need to know a year in advance. In November, they would have most of the packages and contracts put in place for the following year. That is an important aspect to bear in mind.

Has Theatre Forum an overall developmental programme for schools and does it see this as important? What role could Theatre Forum play to enhance projects such as that in Donegal? What outreach initiatives is Theatre Forum undertaking to the various corners of Ireland?

Mr. Shiels

Almost every arts organisation, from the Abbey Theatre to all the national institutions and companies such as Second Age and Team which solely exist on an educational remit, would have an outreach education section. Clearly such outreach takes place. There is no master plan as such but each company has one.

Mr. Stanford

All the companies have one. My own company does.

The comment made during the first couple of years was that if the theatre companies generated more income, they would present a better case. Theatre Forum is saying that the audiences have improved and this proves its case that more investment leads to larger attendances, which creates its own synergy.

A few questions occur to me, one of which links into the role of schools. People complain that the RTE symphony orchestra does not tour and the obvious answer is that it cannot afford to do so. In the case of touring productions, would it be worthwhile to put together a master plan outlining a wish to go to An Gríanán to put on a major production, for instance? How many participants would be involved in a major production?

Mr. Stanford

Between 15 and 25 persons.

If the company has 20 people coming to Donegal, in parties of two they could visit ten or 20 schools covering such subjects as acting skills and stage lighting, with a little interaction. That is my argument with the orchestras. If 100 people are coming into an area, they should break into 33 groups of three and people would get the experience. This has three benefits: first, the child gets the experience; second, he or she may become part of the audience that night; and third, these children must bring their parents with them because they must be brought there and back. I agree that the Department of Education and Science should be spending money on this but perhaps the way to achieve it is for the theatre company to volunteer to go into the Department's schools to provide this support and state that the company needs a certain amount of money.

The group raised the issue of VAT. I take it there is no objection among members of the committee to writing to the Department of Finance in that regard. Is that agreed?

I have a question arising from that.

Then we will agree that at the end of the meeting.

The group did not mention the tax exemption and I will throw in the chestnut about why choreography was not in the Arts Council's presentation for the tax exemption.

I agree with the group on the issue of cultural tourism, that we sell our country through culture, yet we do not really invest in it, particularly at the early stages. What of the unfortunate story today where theatre is linked with a drugs find abroad which will impact on an opera? I wonder if all publicity is good publicity. Whether the members of the group want to comment on that is up to them because we enjoy parliamentary privilege, while they do not. Is the group launching an information pack next week? Perhaps the group would tell us about that.

Most of the points have been covered adequately. I take the point made about touring, that there is core funding available but that incremental additional funding would generate a large increase in the number of people participating, that is, in jobs and in the scope of what could be done.

When I first studied Shakespeare, one just read a book. That was prior to the advent of television. Just before my leaving certificate the Christopher Plummer version of Hamlet, the play on that year’s curriculum, was shown. All we had previously was Mr. Denis Franks coming in an odd time for two bob a head to recite various extracts from Shakespeare.

I would be very much in favour of getting theatre out of Dublin and into areas around the country. One of the most important aspects of that for me would be to give people from disadvantaged backgrounds the opportunity to become involved. The beneficial effects of the arts can be felt everywhere but too many sections of the community nationwide are not getting the kind of exposure one would like.

I have no difficulty with the suggestion that the committee write to the Minister about the VAT issue. I certainly would agree with that. I would also support the call to increase the Arts Council budget generally.

In the touring context, there are many aspects involved. Although not quite coming from the same background, I am in favour of getting the orchestras, which obviously are funded in a different way, out around the country and into the schools in order that children might be exposed to this.

In general, the points on cultural tourism are well made. This has much potential from many points of view and I will not go back over what other people have said about that. I thank the group for coming and for giving what is always a stimulating presentation. I wish them well in the years to come.

I join my colleagues in welcoming the delegation. I agree totally about the considerable potential for arts-based tourism. Through no fault of the group, arts-based tourism is massively unexplored. I am interested that there are three groups looking into it. It may be worthwhile for the committee, when we get a timeframe on the reports of those three groups, to invite them to discuss their findings.

I support the suggestion of writing to the Minister, both on VAT and multi-annual funding. I realise multi-annual funding is a new concept for many people but when one hears such a persuasive case being made, particularly in the case of the tourism aspect, it is ludicrous for a St. Patrick's Day parade to be allocated funding in January. It does not add up. My question is quite simple. When these points on multi-annual funding and VAT were raised in the past with the Department, what was its response? What was the Department's excuse?

I welcome the delegation and thank them for the precise and compact presentation.

With regard to the VAT issue, I would prefer if it were included as part of a complete package which addresses all the issues. The preparation of the budget is almost complete and it will be announced in December. Many organisations have made submissions to the Minister for Finance in advance of the budget. Has Theatre Forum made such a submission? If it proposes to do so, it should be done soon and perhaps we can be of assistance at that stage.

I detected a note of frustration in the presentation. It is the third time the forum has appeared before the committee to make its case and if the meetings are to be justified, we need to be seen to do something for the group and to achieve positive results. On the basis of information given to us by the forum, the committee should submit a detailed submission, including reference to the VAT and tourism-related issues, and get an idea of the funding that could be available next year, given that it will not be realised this year.

I am interested in the regions. Has the group explored opportunities with Shannon Development, which is responsible for the promotion of industry and tourism in the mid-west, the area I represent? The company supports activities such as banquets, concerts and pageants in Dunguaire, Bunratty and Knappogue castles as part of the overall tourism package. The package in the regions, however, is small and this is why they are losing out. Insufficient events and attraction are laid on to attract tourists from Dublin and elsewhere. The forum should connect with the regional tourism organisations. They have influence on budgets and they have facilities that could be utilised to enhance the tourism product in the different regions. The forum should make an improved, detailed submission.

Almost every Department uses multi-annual budgets and it is important that it should be utilised in this area. One cannot plan or do anything unless one knows where the funding will come from over a number of years. I hope we can help in this regard by supporting Theatre Forum's presentation in order that its representatives will not be back next year saying it is the fourth time they have made the same case without getting a response.

I refer to Glór. Does the forum have a connection with the amateur drama movement? Ireland has a vibrant amateur dramatic movement, especially in the west, through festivals in Scariff and Doonbeg. Such festivals went through a bad period but they draw sizeable audiences now. I once officially opened the Doonbeg festival in the presence of approximately six others but last year one could not get a ticket to various productions staged during the festival. There is potential for a connection between Theatre Forum and amateur drama groups, which have sustained themselves on a shoestring for many years. We can do a great deal of work together and if the committee is to be effective, it must work in partnership with the forum to make submissions to the Ministers for Finance and Arts, Sport, and Tourism. I am willing to help in this regard.

The first year the forum's representatives came before the committee they were banging their heads off the wall. There was so little to go around that there was almost no point in their even fighting their corner but there has been movement since. We are catching up. Multi-annual budgets are a new phenomenon in many Departments. Significant investment is provided through the sports capital programme, yet people are not appointed to look after the facilities. Significant investment has also been made in arts facilities but funding has not been provided for staff to administer them. The Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism awarded a grant of €150,000 to a group in Waterville, County Kerry, and €250,000 to the Strand Theatre, Carrick-on-Suir, County Tipperary earlier. Investment is being made at that level but groups are still playing catch-up in putting bums on seats.

Mr. Shiels

We welcomed the capital investment in bricks and mortar in recent years but it is time to invest in people because, ultimately, the arts are about people, not machines or bricks and mortar. We have had the initial stage and it is time to focus on the artists and pay back the people.

I refer to Deputy Glennon's question about VAT and multi-annual funding. Such funding is a contradiction. Money has been put by for sport over a number of years and infrastructural grants are provided by the Department of Transport for road construction. When it needs to be done, it can be done and, therefore, the issue is willingness. I welcome the fact that the Deputy agrees a significant benefit will result for everybody, not only those involved in the arts, through proper investment. We can create the synergies that are needed.

Senator Daly referred to amateur companies. Theatre Forum covers professional companies but AOIFE, the association of festival events, covers those companies as well. I do not know if we have enough time but we will try to get something to the committee as a matter of urgency to assist in making a submission to the Department of Finance.

Mr. Stanford

A number of questions were raised about the outreach aspect in schools. The professional theatre wants to work. For example, a company on tour will comprise stage managers, actors, a director and so on. The possibility of outreach into the community and the local schools is enormous. It needs organising and funding but the potential is enormous. Theatre companies such as Second Age and Team are geared for the education process but, for example, my new company does not only put on plays; we also develop programmes. We have a new programme coming on stream, should funding be available, under which we will send actors to school to work with the teachers, not the children. They will teach the teachers the process of rehearsal and how characterisation is examined because a play is a living thing, not a book, and it requires performance for it to exist. One of our programmes involves actors teaching groups of teachers the process we go through as actors to turn a book into a play. It is one aspect of it. The potential is there, as the Chairman stated, to take any play on tour and use the people involved in it to reach out to the community by visiting schools, amateur groups or anybody else who is interested and saying, "This is what theatre is about, this is how we make it work. Let us teach you and let us hope you learn." We want to work but we need the facility that will get us there to do it and that requires money.

Ms Banotti

I will answer the remaining questions.

Deputy Deenihan asked how the extra 30% would be spent in the Abbey. I was struck by how the Arts Council had made it clear to the committee last week that it had advanced set-aside moneys for the traditional arts, about which Senator Ó Murchú was pleased. It will mean a sum of €500,000 this year and €3 million next year. When it is important, politically, to set aside moneys for certain art forms, it can be done. What we are saying is that if it can be done for the traditional arts, it can be done for the theatre and visual arts.

It is true the Abbey will need a lot more money in the future. Its house has been put in order, with a new memorandum and articles, board and chairperson. It is fair to say the dogs in the street know it will be seeking a substantial increase. While the current sum is €4.5 million, I am not privy to what is contained in its funding application. However, it would not be unreasonable to assume it would be €6 million a year. This would be a big chunk of the extra €17 million the Arts Council is seeking going to one cultural institution. The amount needed is substantial.

Touring networks already exist. If a play is going to be put on in An Grianán, it will probably also be put on in Glór in Ennis, the Belltable in Limerick and the Tinteán in Ballybunion. There are networks of venues but actors' salaries must be paid and bed-and-breakfast and hotel fees paid. These venues are usually staffed by FÁS-CE workers and one full-time member of staff. They cannot pay to have Alan Stanford's company come on tour. Irrespective of how good their network is, if there is no money to pay someone to come, it cannot happen. The same is true of the RTE Concert Orchestra. It may be funded from a different pot but bringing an entire orchestra on tour is very expensive, something for which arts centres do not have the money. Therefore, they tend to be rented to the highest bidder. If stand-up comedy attracts bodies, they will simply offer wall-to-wall stand-up comedy, and who can blame them?

This ties in with the amateur drama sector. The amateur drama community in rural areas provides the greatest audience for professional theatre, but it has also been the beneficiary of the arts centres that are members of Theatre Forum. Such groups are playing and rehearsing in the centres because often there is nothing else on. They certainly have an audience for their work but might put on one or two shows a year. Like everyone else, they are not filling the hole in programming. Even though the professional and amateur worlds are different, they interlink because they provide our keenest audience and are playing in the arts centres we visit. They often attract better audiences for some of the local shows than we do.

I am sure Mr. Stanford will want to speak on the issue of the artists' tax exemption, on which we made a submission to the Minister. Theatre Forum's position is that it is reasonable that there be a cap, even though that is not the position of other agencies which made presentations to the committee. We are keen that the exemption be maintained. It is worth stating, because sometimes there is confusion, that actors are not entitled to avail of the exemption. Under the law, choreographers and theatre directors are unfortunately termed "interpretative artists". Apparently, we are not people who create; we interpret other people's creations. The only ones eligible to avail of the exemption are artists who produce something one can hold in one's hand such as a book, painting or sculpture. We feel very strongly that actors such as Mr. Stanford, directors such as Ms Garry Hynes and choreographers such as Mr. David Bolger are as much artists as writers such as John McGahern. There should be no distinction between a creative and an interpretative artist. There should be equity in order that a cap may be set in place at the discretion of the Minister. We are not asking for an unlimited amount of income that would be not subject to tax.

We support the retention of the tax exemption, with provisos. We were interested in what Ms Braiden had to say, that the council wished to maintain the exemption and that it would come back at a later date to choreographers. That a choreographer creates a dance which is not written down on a piece of paper for the Revenue Commissioners to understand does not make him or her less of an artist. It will be an opportunity lost if the council and the committee do not grasp the concept that one can be a choreographer and a director and be as much of an artist as a writer or painter.

Mr. Stanford

On the value of the tax exemption, it is not about not paying tax. For almost one year I went through a process with Revenue of trying to devise a new taxation system for actors. We conceived one that would make life easy for actors. Even the gentlemen from Revenue, from both the PAYE sector and the schedule D sector, agreed that the system was wonderful. However, when I asked if we could have it, they said we could not because it would not fit in with their system, which means we are back to square one.

The problem is that virtually every artist earns under a totally irregular system. If they are unlucky, people in other walks of life will be made redundant three times during their lives. It happens to me every 12 weeks.

It happens to us every five years.

Mr. Stanford

Absolutely. With respect, if the Deputy does not come back after five years, there is a redundancy package available for him. There is not such a package for us. That is why we initially asked for a taxation system that would spread our income, but we were told this would not be possible.

One of the most enlightened pieces of legislation was that which encompassed the notion of a tax exemption for artists. It is recognised worldwide as an act of generosity and a recognition of the arts. A playwright does not write a play; he or she writes a script. A play only occurs when that script is turned into a performance by actors. A play is a living thing. It is unique. It only happens once. The next night what happens is that there is a variation. Each performance is unique. A play is a unique experience. It requires the equal creative input of the actor, director and, if it is a dance, choreographer. The people concerned are as much part of the creative process and deserve that recognition.

The official line of the actors' union, of which I am a member, is exactly the same as that of Theatre Forum. We are seeking the same tax exemption for all performing artists — directors, choreographers and designers for the theatre who create part of the process. We also accept the notion that there should be a cap. Equity's official line is that the cap should be set at €100,000 at current prices and index-linked because we do not want to find ourselves in a situation in ten year's time where it would have lost its value.

We came across the argument that one could be writing a book for three, four or five years and that it would take two years for revenue to be made. The issue of applying a cap could prove difficult in a particular year.

I was struck by Senator Daly's comment that we should work together. It is unfortunate that these meetings always take place against the backdrop of the budget. I suggest that next year Theatre Forum come before the committee in May or June before the run-in to the budget and the current budget will be fresh in our minds. It may lead to a more productive outcome. I will not prejudge this year's outcome but it may be more productive.

Funding for the Abbey should be ring-fenced. Now that the choreography has been fixed, it will probably be funded separately.

The Arts Council stated last week that this was a battle which would have to be fought separately.

Ms Banotti

We would welcome an opportunity to come before the committee earlier in the year. Working with disadvantaged communities and people who have never experienced the arts is part of a long-term plan. One must be in it for the long haul and take small steps in communities. One must be committed over a period. The problem is, whether it is Axis working in Ballymun, that the available funding does not match the ambition of working with such communities.

It is interesting that we have dealt with this issue previously. We can address some of the issues raised. I agree with Senator Daly that we should send letters to both the Department of Finance and the Arts Council with regard to VAT and support for multi-annual funding of the touring organisations. A sub-committee on arts education was to be developed under the Arts Bill. The Arts Council mentioned that every time it meets the Minister it asks about this. Perhaps we should have a joint meeting in the near future in conjunction with the Joint Committee on Education and Science, the Arts Council, the Department of Education and Science and this committee to thrash out the situation. There is no point in this committee thrashing it out alone if the others have a different angle on it.

I thank Ms Banotti for her contribution, for keeping in contact with us and for inviting us to various productions. That helps keep our interest, although we are confined here on many occasions. We should seek time exemptions so that we can get out in time to attend the start of plays. We are too busy on this stage at times to get the opportunity to watch the real professionals in action. We thank the group for its contribution and guarantee our support with regard to its aims and goals. I also thank committee members for their time today.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.35 p.m. sine die.

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