We welcome the representatives from the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association, namely, Fr. Michael Mac Gréil SJ, chairperson of the board of management; Mr. Shane Kitson, president, and Mr. Padraic Naughten, chief executive officer; the representatives from the Vintners Federation, namely, Mr. Seamus O'Donoghue, president; Mr. Tadhg O'Sullivan, chief executive officer, and their colleagues who will speak, in the context of our forthcoming report, on the inclusion of alcohol in the national drugs strategy. I invite our visitors to introduce themselves and proceed with the principal speaker from each delegation, following which I will take questions from members. Before the representatives commence their contributions, I advise them that while members enjoy parliamentary privilege, the same privilege does not extend to them.
Alcohol Policy: Presentations.
Mr. Padraic Naughten
Is only one speaker allowed to contribute?
There will be one main speaker. If the representatives wish to share time in the one time slot, they may do so.
Fr. Michael Mac Gréil
We will share time. The president of the association will introduce the members of our delegation and I will then make the submission.
Mr. Shane Kitson
On behalf of the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association, PTAA, I thank the Chairman and members for making time available to meet us. I am the recently elected president of the association. My two colleagues are Fr. Michael Mac Gréil, chairman of the board of management, and Mr. Padraic Naughten, the chief executive officer.
The pioneer association has been active in Ireland for more than 107 years. With the GAA, it is the longest running parish-based organisation. Our main aims are centred on the sober use of alcoholic drink in society and support for the victims of alcohol abuse and its excessive use. Because of the growing prevalence of the binge drinking subculture, our policy is to counsel young people, particularly those under 18 years of age, to abstain from alcoholic drink. The association holds the view that the State has, as part of its responsibility for the promotion of public welfare, a responsibility to control the public sale and consumption of alcoholic drink and its promotion.
Like many other collectivities of concerned citizens, pioneers are becoming alarmed at the social, personal and cultural effects of the excessive use of alcoholic drink by people of all ages in our society. The PTAA believes aIcohol-free recreational outlets for youth at local community level require a substantial increase in capital and current investment by the State. The promotion of the mission of the PTAA among the youth has been a policy priority of the association since 2000. This mission has become our major millennium project.
Fr. Mac Gréil
Members have received a copy of our submission which we have divided into two parts. We set out, first, the specific measures we suggest and then address the subject of this meeting. We have a brief set of recommendations to make which I will go through.
The over-dependence on alcoholic drink in modern leisure culture is being promoted by vested interests in the alcohol industry to the detriment, in terms of quality and creativity, of the lives of many Irish people. This matter must be investigated. However, we distinguish from that culture the vintners and the good, responsible publicans. We see a well-run pub as an institution for the sober use of alcohol. We are addressing the issue of the abuse of alcohol. We are not anti-alcohol.
There is an urgent need for intervention by the State and by voluntary organisations to restrict the availability of alcoholic drink for young people. Alcohol is leading to serious personal, social and family problems and is stultifying the growth and development of many young people. In recent years, there has been a mammoth growth in the number of outlets for the purchase of alcoholic drink and people can buy alcohol in unlimited quantities from off-licences, supermarkets, filling stations and elsewhere. The latter has resulted in easy access for those under the age of 18 to intoxicating liquor. The PTAA recommends that the State exert a tighter grip on these outlets and police them more regularly.
Advertising and the promotion of the sale and use of alcoholic drinks should be prohibited in sports venues and in all matters pertaining to group games and athletics. Advertising of alcohol should be removed from domestic radio and television, particularly as children can hear and watch it in their homes.
Drinking alcohol in public places — that is, parks, footpaths in towns and cities, fields and unoccupied buildings — should be strictly prohibited. This is known as "bushing". We made this proposal in 2001 but the Government did not accept it. A great deal of youth drinking occurs in these places. Alcoholic drink should be consumed only in licensed premises and in clearly designated areas under proper supervision. The PTAA is also concerned about the availability of alcoholic drink at sports venues and on trains, cruise ships and ferries. We are all aware of the recent tragedy where a young person of 15 years of age, who was drunk, fell into the sea. We are also concerned about the promotion of alcohol in third level institutions by the drinks industry.
In the light of the experience of the extension of hours of drinking — passed in 2001 — in public houses, hotels, clubs and other authorised outlets, the PTAA is of the view that the State should re-examine the impact of such changes on public order and incidents of the abuse of alcohol and take the necessary measures to curtail drinking hours to a more reasonable time. We read recently that 88% of public order offences are alcohol-related.
The PTAA believes that the drinks industry should — in a proportionate manner determined by the courts — share the cost of the personal, medical, social and domestic damage caused by the abuse of alcoholic drink. This would include serious damage to health that resulted from the ambiguous promotion of drink — there is no health warning on bottles or tins — via public labels and advertisement and from the serving of drink to intoxicated and addicted customers in licensed premises. The drinks industry should contribute to the cost of providing extra accident and emergency services to those suffering self-inflicted physical disability arising from excessive indulgence in alcoholic drink. Some 25% of those seen in accident and emergency units have alcohol-related problems.
The pioneer association amended its pledge for junior-young pioneers in 1994 to include the following, "I promise not to take alcoholic drink until I am 18 years and to keep off drugs for life". This brings drugs into our pledge, which is recommended to all young people making their confirmation and it is still very popular throughout the country. We are also trying to set up voluntary groups in second level schools to support those willing to keep their pledge against the inevitable peer pressure to drink. In this dual pledge to avoid alcoholic drink and illicit drugs, the pioneer association acknowledges the link between the two forms of dangerous addiction. For that reason, we see the wisdom of a link between the two in the State's strategy.
The Pioneer Total Abstinence Association is also of the opinion, however, that the problem with alcohol is so acute that it requires a specialised strategy and the establishment of a number of high powered task forces to — independent of work relating to the drugs problem — engage in research and take action. Where necessary, such a specialised coalition of forces should liaise closely with the drugs task force but should not be part of it. In 2001, for example, the PTAA, in its submission to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, recommended that a special unit be set up by the Garda Síochána to police the abuse of alcohol and to prevent under age drinking.
Since the abuse of alcohol and drugs are largely associated with leisure in the community, the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association welcomes the shared interest in the alcohol and drug problem by the Departments of Arts, Sport and Tourism and Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. The PTAA would like to see both Departments provide the considerable resources, capital and current, needed to make available alcohol-free and drugs-free sports and youth work amenities in Irish communities throughout the country. This would end the monopoly of the public house as the only place of attractive recreation outside the home.
The extraordinary growth in the commercialisation of leisure in the past 30 years has resulted in most indoor recreation taking place in locations outside the home where alcohol is available. Céilís, dances, discos and other large parties have become nightclubs where drink is available, which is also a new development. It is most likely that these commercially driven recreational changes are a serious element in the rise of binge drinking and other forms of excessive use of alcohol. The availability of alcohol-free alternative recreational facilities would counter the overpowering dominance of alcohol over leisure activities for people of all ages. Evidence that this is true can be seen at PTAA social functions.
In 2001 the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association recommended that the State carry out a comprehensive study of the causes and effects of alcohol consumption in Ireland. To date, much of the published statistical evidence shows that it is more symptomatic of an underlying malaise in modern society. The research that has been carried out is not detailed enough to allow us to get at the cause of our problems. Through addictive behaviour, we are sacrificing our personal freedom. The 1988-89 survey showed that there is a high level of anomie — that is, a sense of normlessness — in modern society, which weakens the individual's moral strength and restraint. Some excessive drinking could be a form of semi-deliberate self-destruction in a social climate lacking meaning. In a thorough interdisciplinary analysis of the causes and effects of our behaviour in regard to alcohol, we should be able to identify the remedies most likely to improve the position in the longer term. Of course, courageous action is and will be required to correct the destructive behaviour.
That is our submission. I now hand over to the chief executive officer to take the joint committee through the recommendations.
Mr. Naughton
We recommend that the establishment of two national strategic task groups — one to deal with alcoholic drink problems and the other to specialise in drugs problems — be considered because we see alcohol as being a legal drug and the substances relating to the drugs problem as illegal. There are two different problems to which the same solution may possibly apply but they must be dealt with separately.
Our second recommendation is that both national strategic task groups remain in close liaison with each other. We cannot see them working in isolation. With regard to the current problem of alcoholic drink in Ireland, the State must save young people from themselves. The problem is so serious that there should be a task force to deal specifically with it.
We urge the Departments of Arts, Sport and Tourism and Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs to work together to upgrade elements of the recreational infrastructure in communities throughout the country to operate as alternative, alcohol-free facilities for young people. By that, we mean that a significant amount of funding, both capital and current, be invested. In the past month, the survey of young people revealed that they are bored out of their minds, have no place to go other than to the pub and are asking that the State take action by providing facilities. We see every week what can be done in an alcohol-free environment, if it is properly organised and supervised, in modern facilities.
We urge greater enforcement of the law on the availability and use of alcoholic drink, given its obvious connection to serious illness, irresponsible behaviour, domestic violence and even death and injury on the roads. It is evident that there is a need for the greater enforcement of existing laws.
We recommend the full implementation of the recommendations of the second report of the strategic task force on alcohol, which was published in September 2004. The State has done little about those recommendations, which are essential if we are to tackle the abuse of alcohol.
We recommend the complete ban on acknowledgement or credit, including the use of logos on jerseys and sports outfits, for sponsorship of sports events, clubs or teams by the alcohol industry. It is horrifying to see a baby in a pram wearing a football jersey with a logo advertising the alcoholic drinks industry. If that continues and if people are exposed to it from an early age, it will be difficult for them to get away from the culture of alcoholic drink.
The same recommendation applies in respect of sports events sponsored by the alcoholic drinks industry. If we are continually looking at alcoholic drinks advertisements, how do we expect to promote living healthily in an alcohol-free environment? We urge the exclusion of the promotion of alcoholic drink through advertising on domestic radio and television and at sports venues. Evidence and research shows without a doubt that advertising has an effect and that to stop advertising before 9 p.m. is now irrelevant. That is the view of the PTAA because children no longer go to bed before 9 p.m. They are often found watching television up to midnight. Advertising affects and influences them.
We recommend that the Garda be given greater support, in the form of training opportunities and back-up, to deal with the variety of situations relating to the abuse of alcohol. Each day, people telephone us and ask for help in dealing with the abuse of alcohol. Gardaí experience the same problems in trying to handle people who are out of their minds with alcohol. One could say the same is the case with accident and emergency departments and other such facilities. It is time the Garda was given help and support on that matter. I thank the committee for inviting us to make a presentation.
Before hearing the presentation from the Vintners Federation of Ireland and in the event that there might be any misunderstanding, I should point out that this is a standing committee of the Oireachtas and that it is not a group that came come together to deal specifically with this issue. The joint committee has met on a regular basis throughout the lifetime of the Dáil and it will continue to do so. This is just one of the topics with which the joint committee is dealing.
Fr. Mac Gréil
That is good because the two related Departments have the resources.
If that is the case, it is merely a happy coincidence.
I apologise to the representatives from the Licensed Vintners Association — Mr. Denis Coman, chairman, Mr. Tony Gibney, vice chairman, and Mr. Donall O'Keeffe, chief executive — whose presentation did not make it onto today's agenda. We will take the association's contribution in due course. We will now hear the presentation from the Vintners Federation of Ireland.
I am president of the Vintners Federation of Ireland. I am accompanied by Mr. Tadhg O'Sullivan, our chief executive officer. We welcome the opportunity to put our views before the joint committee and thank the Chairman for the invitation to attend.
As stakeholders in the drinks and tourism industries and in light of the important part we play in the area of community, rural and Gaeltacht affairs, it is important that our interest and role in these matters be recognised. We, therefore, greatly appreciate this opportunity and will do our best to be brief, clear and concise.
The alcohol industry has been responsible for the survival of many major sporting events. Despite criticism, the industry has been the fillip that has helped to develop many of the major sporting events, even if some of these are being taken over by other sectors or institutions.
The pub, and in particular perhaps the rural pub, is at long last being recognised as an integral part of the tourism offering this island has to extend to visitors, whether from home or abroad. One need only examine the brochures and photographs used to promote Irish tourism to see that a significant proportion of promotions have always involved pubs. Irrespective of the contrary views as to why and how this should be the case, the pub is, largely speaking, the hub of the community. It is the place where people meet and greet, celebrate, console and sympathise and is the first port of call when funds are to be raised for local initiatives or charities. We represent establishments in larger urban areas but also those in the smallest towns and villages, in the most rural parts of this island and in all parts of the Gaeltacht, where the pub is an integral part of the community.
It is our considered opinion that there is no justification, necessity, requirement or expectation that alcohol should be included in a national drugs strategy. Our contention is based on a simple but obvious truth, namely, that the problems associated with alcohol in society in Ireland are a consequence of abuse by a small minority of those who consume it regularly. The problem with drugs is their use by 100% of those who abuse them.
In recent years, the Oireachtas legislated to significantly ease the restrictions on the availability of alcohol. This is most noticeable in the context of sales for consumption off the premises. It is now common practice to see multiple supermarkets selling alcohol at 7.30 a.m. Despite the common practice where youngsters, quite legally and legitimately, purchase 22 pints at a time in small grocery shops, newsagents and on forecourts, the sale and availability of alcohol is extremely tightly controlled and controllable.
Legislation specifies the times and the places at which alcohol may be sold, the persons who may sell alcohol and those who may not do so and the hours during which alcohol may be sold in respect of off sales. The latter may be made up to 17 hours per day but the number is somewhat more restricted in respect of on sales. Legislation prescribes those to whom alcohol may be sold and those to whom it may not and it even sets down who may be present on a licensed premises, and the hours during which certain categories of persons may be present.
It is clear, therefore, that the public house is the most controlled environment in which alcohol can be sold and consumed. The consumption or abuse that may take place in the home is clearly a separate matter of concern for society. The consumption and/or abuse that may take place in public parks and alleyways or on the highways and byways is of concern to everyone in society, not least those involved in the drinks industry.
Those in the pub trade and in the entire industry have long been concerned about the abuse of alcohol. We took up positions in this regard long before it was popular or common. The Vintners Federation first called for mandatory age cards to help tackle the problem of abuse of alcohol by the young in 1983. The trade generally has initiated and supported various campaigns on road safety and the activities of the National Safety Council. The trade has also initiated and supported others in "Designated Driver", "Drive Safely" and "Don't Drink and Drive" campaigns over many years.
The trade was instrumental in the establishment of MEAS — Mature Enjoyment of Alcohol in Society — and, by extension, the establishment of the central copy clearance initiative for alcohol advertisements and the complaints provision to deal with those who produce alcohol products specifically designed for youngsters. The trade has successfully prevented the introduction into the market of a number of products designed for consumption by the young or by under age drinkers. The trade was responsible for the introduction of the responsible serving of alcohol programme together with the health promotion unit of the Department of Health and Children. The programme is now under the aegis of Fáilte Ireland. It is a fair assumption, therefore, that the alcohol industry has taken its responsibilities seriously and that it continues to work to limit the abuse of a very legitimate product.
The legitimacy of the product can scarcely be in question. It is recognised that one of the most honoured ranks in ancient Celtic society was that of briugu or hospitaller. Such a person was charged with having "a never dry cauldron, a dwelling on a public road and a welcome to every face". The Irish pub, therefore, dates back a long way. Samuel Johnson is credited as having stated in 1776 that "there is nothing which has yet been contrived by man, by which so much happiness is produced as by a good tavern or inn". However, there are those who, were the marriage feast of Cana to take place today, would castigate the Good Lord because of his association with alcohol. There are those who would visit all the sins of society on the very legitimate product that is alcohol in its many forms.
The industry, which covers the production, distribution, supply and sale of alcohol in Ireland, is responsible for between 80,000 and 100,000 full-time job equivalents; exports of €1 billion per annum; a trade surplus of more than €300 million; approximately 70% of the Irish market supplied by Irish product; in excess of €1 billion paid in excise duties; almost €900 million in VAT receipts; and an indeterminate level of income tax and profit taxes throughout the industry. The value to society in employment, revenue generation, balance of payments and the tourism and other industries must be a given. While alcohol may be blamed for all the ills of society, it is first and foremost a legitimate product, which is distributed through a highly regulated, responsible and, for the most part, community-based series of businesses.
Concern about alcohol consumption revolves around the tiny minority of individuals who abuse it. Since earliest times, man has sought and found peace and satisfaction in the refreshment offered by the alcohol product. It must be emphasised that the responsible consumption of alcohol is an important means of enjoying life and represents an important means of relaxing and coping with stress. There has for too long been a preoccupation with the negative aspects of alcohol abuse, without the counterbalancing determination to tackle the causes and sources of the abuse or even the source of the alcohol that is abused. The moderate or responsible consumption of alcohol contributes enormously to the health of the nation and the consumer. Even the World Health Organisation states that enjoying good health does not only involve the absence of illness, but rather "the condition of complete physical, mental and social well-being". Alcohol, therefore, has contributed greatly to the health of this nation and will continue to do so.
We must never allow the confusion that sometimes arises between healthy consumption and unhealthy abuse of alcohol to cloud our perceptions or policies. Since the turn of the 19th century, alcohol has been subject to extraordinary scrutiny. The 1902 Act recognised that there were too many outlets for the sale of alcohol in Ireland and it provided a mechanism by which the number might be reduced. This was not done at the behest of the licensed trade or the drinks industry, but rather as a recognition that too many outlets and easy access could, and did, lead to abuse. The 1925 commission not only supported that contention but went further and recommended that the State actively engage in buying liquor licences to speed up the reduction in their number.
There have been successive commissions, task forces and investigations, up to and including the most recent reports of the strategic task force on alcohol, and no less than four separate reports from the Liquor Licensing Commission. The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and Children report on alcohol misuse by young people was published as recently as June 2004. More than 12 statutes were enacted in the 20th century, while three have been enacted in the 21st century — another major Bill is promised — all of which govern the operation of a licensed premises.
Let us not equate the great asset that is the tightly regulated drinks industry in Ireland with the plague and cancer that is the illegal and criminal importation, sale, distribution and use of illegal drugs. While it is clear that users abuse legitimate or prescription drugs, it must be recognised that these are in a totally different category to the trafficking of heroin, cocaine and other substances. Two different approaches are required. A strategy needs to be designed to assist those abusing prescription drugs, which is significantly different from the strategy the Oireachtas must put in place to deal with the drug barons who have introduced the gun culture, which has led to appalling carnage, murder and mayhem in our cities and towns.
Even within the subculture of the drugs industry, different strategies will be required, as will different styles of approach, given that we are dealing with different issues and different products. This also involves the abuse of legitimate product such as prescription drugs rather than the importation, distribution and trafficking of illegal drugs. The inclusion of a minority who abuse legitimate products in a strategy designed to deal with all of those who have created the damage to society through illegal drugs will serve only to confuse and to dilute our ability to tackle this most serious problem. Nothing must be done or permitted to dilute our determination, as a people, to deal with the scourge of the drug barons.
The Vintners Federation of Ireland and its members are stakeholders in this regard. Our members' children are as likely as those of others to be targeted by the vermin who inhabit the world of the illicit drugs. Due to the fact that pubs are places were people meet and congregate, they are sometimes used by the sellers of this poison, a matter which is of enormous concern to those in the licensed trade. Like other trade associations, we have run seminars and training programmes and used internal communication channels to advise, educate and warn our members about the danger inherent to them and their customers and about the need to be vigilant. As part of our strategy to help, we have developed guidelines for publicans regarding drug dealing on or in the vicinity of licensed premises. This has been done in conjunction with the LVA, the Irish Hotel Federation, the Nightclubs Association, the Department of Health and Children and the Garda.
The murders, gunfire, gunfights, stabbings and the fear of violence visited on society by the drugs gangs and barons are almost unique to that sector and are certainly alien and unrelated to any legitimate business. The activities in which these individuals are involved are like no other enterprise, except perhaps the tragedy that is human trafficking. The turf wars in which these criminal elements engage and the deaths inflicted on so many young men and women in recent months must never be elevated or given the legitimacy of comparison with what constitutes normal life. To link such activities with any other legal or legitimate enterprise would be a betrayal. It would never be acceptable to link a proposed strategy to deal with congestion on our roads or improvements in access to transport for visitors with a strategy to deal with trafficking in human beings. They should always be dealt with separately, as should the drugs strategy.
It is not the wish of the Vintners Federation of Ireland to pre-empt any decision or strategy the committee may devise. However, thoughts cross our minds because we sometimes deal with the victims of those who engage in this awful underworld that is the drugs scene. As indicated earlier, there will be a need for at least two, if not more, strategies to deal with the problem of drug abuse.
It is clear that funds and facilities must be made available to help the rehabilitation of those who find themselves victims and/or addicts. The value of the human spirit and the human person can scarcely be overstated. It is accepted that a high proportion of addicts can be rehabilitated if the proper facilities, treatment and personnel are provided. The problems associated with abuse of and addiction to prescribed drugs may be different, and we must assume the committee will be guided by the experts in that field. We must recognise that the addicts are perhaps the biggest victims.
The real culprits in this scenario are the importers and distributors. People who possess for sale and those who sell and encourage others to consume must be treated in the manner they deserve. There is a perception that those who are engaged in the drugs business are well known to the Garda. It appears that the force knows the importers, gang leaders and crime bosses but that its members are somehow powerless to deal with them. This means that there is something seriously amiss with the legislation. Crime bosses who are known to the police authorities can import the most dangerous of substances. They then distribute the drugs via a chain of command, where each link in the chain is known to the Garda. However, the perception is that the end of the chain, or the victim, is the only one who pays the price. The strategy must be to change the law, the manner in which it is enforced and society's attitude to that law. The contribution of the Minister, Deputy McDowell, in the Dáil yesterday suggests that he is examining in more detail the way criminals may be dealt with. While we are not fully familiar with all the proposed amendments to the Criminal Justice Bill 2004, the Minister appears to be moving in the right direction.
Irish society has always linked crime and punishment. We have always seen the imprisonment of the criminal as an act of punishment and, as a consequence, society wonders whether such punishment is justified or unreasonable. Perhaps we should rethink our stratagems. Should we not consider the question of crime and protection? Society is plagued by the criminal elements that populate the drugs culture. Is it not entitled to seek protection from such elements without such protection being described or vilified as punishment? If a drug importer, smuggler or pusher is imprisoned for a crime, should we not consider this protection for society rather than punishment for the criminal? Is it not time to begin to re-examine our entire attitude to crime and punishment on the part of criminals, crime and protection in the interests of victims?
We can conceive of no reason that the question of alcohol should be considered in the context of a strategy to deal with the abuse and use of drugs.
Before taking the submission from the Licensed Vintners Association, because I suspect there may be some crossover between the association's submission and that which we have just heard, and with no wish to restrict our Mr. Donall O'Keeffe's contribution, in the interests of efficiency, it might be better to avoid duplication, where possible.
Mr. Donall O’Keeffe
I am Chief Executive of the Licensed Vintners Association. I am accompanied by our chairman, Mr. Denis Coman, and our vice chairman, Mr. Tony Gibney. I welcome the opportunity to make our views known on the inclusion of alcohol in the national drugs strategy. As the submission has been circulated to members, I propose to go through its contents quickly.
I would like to begin by putting the matter in context. The trade in alcohol is legitimate. Hundreds of thousands of people enjoy a social drink each week. As the alcohol drinks industry is a large employer, the responsible consumption of alcohol provides real social, economic and fiscal benefits. It is important to realise that moderate alcohol consumption benefits health. Given that the sensible consumption of alcohol is compatible with a healthy lifestyle, we do not think the debate should focus on the consumption of alcohol itself but rather on its misuse and abuse.
This is a complex issue. There is no magic wand to deal with it and there is a huge variety of stakeholders involved. These include the drinks industry in its widest format, brewers, distillers and porter distributors. It includes drink retailers, of whom publicans are the largest element. It also includes hotels and nightclubs, restaurants and, in particular, off-licences. It is an under-recognised fact that more than 40% of all the alcohol sold in Ireland is sold through the off-licence sector. The single biggest retailers of alcohol in Ireland are the multiple retailers.
The Government is a key player in a variety of Departments, particularly the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Education and Science and Finance. The Garda Síochána, as the enforcement authority, has a major role. At local level, communities, parents — particularly when dealing with the issue of the consumption of alcohol among young people — and individuals have a role to play.
In terms of the legislative environment for the pub trade, it is easily the most heavily regulated retail business in the country. There are Intoxicating Liquor Acts that date back almost 200 years. At present, there are 600 licensing provisions across 100 different statutes. In the past five years, three major items of legislation were introduced in respect of the licensed trade. We are very confident when we say the pub is the most regulated, controlled and safest environment in which to consume alcohol.
We also note that the entire industry is the subject of regular meetings and consultations with the Government. In the past five years there have been four different reports from the Commission on Liquor Licensing, two from the strategic task force on alcohol and the LVA has come before three different Oireachtas committees to discuss various aspects of the trade. This is an important issue and it is well analysed. Recommendation 27 in the national drugs strategy's action plan requires the licensed trades, together with the Garda, to produce a booklet on assisting licensees to deal with the drugs trade. This was completed, together with the VFI, hoteliers, the nightclub industry and the Garda. The booklet was circulated to all members of the trade in 2004.
In terms of developing alcohol policy in Ireland, the Government has made it clear that the output of the Commission on Liquor Licensing's reports, particularly the strategic task force on alcohol, provides the basis for the development of the next national alcohol plan. We know that the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Health and Children have a great deal of experience in this regard and are focused on the issue. We strongly advocate the first recommendation of the most recent report, which stated that the national alcohol strategy should be developed principally through the Department of the Taoiseach. As there are approximately five Departments involved, interdepartmental tensions and conflicts mean that the matter should be brought under the Department of the Taoiseach, a move we strongly advocate. We have been engaged in the social partnership process in the past six months. Together with the Government and the unions, we are in the final stages of producing a specific action agenda on alcohol misuse in the workplace.
We contend that alcohol is a legal product enjoyed by thousands of people weekly and that the pub is a safe environment in which to consume it. We do not believe there is a case for the inclusion of alcohol in the national drugs strategy. Alcohol is a different industry and a different issue, and it should have its own dedicated alcohol strategy.
I thank Mr. O'Keeffe. We appreciate his brevity and co-operation. I invite members of the committee to reciprocate and in the interest of a healthy discussion to ask questions rather than make speeches.
That will be no problem. It is good to hear these presentations. We can ask questions today, but can think and read more about the issue afterwards. The drugs strategy is not working very well and, therefore, I would not be concerned about whether alcohol is included in it. We need to sort out the drugs strategy before considering bringing alcohol into it or it might complicate the issue. I am conscious, however, that there is a cross-over between drugs and alcohol in terms of the people working in the area of tackling drug and alcohol abuse. Therefore, we must try to work with them.
The issue requiring most work, but on which we have not touched today, is why people abuse alcohol. Why is binge drinking so prevalent and why is it the aim of people going out for a night to get drunk? Whether pubs are open longer or closed earlier, that aim does not change. This is what we need to deal with and we need to work on what we can do about it.
The task force on alcohol has made many recommendations. We could set up a group to implement and promote these, as everybody here agrees with them. Could the local and regional drugs task forces take on board the strategies to tackle alcohol abuse and oversee their implementation with their drugs strategies? This might be more useful than trying to redraw the drugs strategy which has its own difficulties and perhaps it might encourage us to work on those difficulties as we move on the issue.
There is conflicting debate as to whether we should advertise alcohol on television and radio. In many cases advertisements promote a choice of drink rather than promote drinking. Perhaps we should have an advertisement before or after each alcohol advertisement that explains to people why they should not drink alcohol, how it is bad for them and why they should not abuse it. This 50-50 approach would make for a level playing field. Another approach would be to ensure that the same amount of money that is spent on promoting alcohol is spent on discouraging abuse of it because there is a big gap between what those who can afford to advertise alcohol spend on promotion and what those who want to warn of its negative aspects can afford to spend on advertising. Perhaps both sides should spend the same amount.
We need to give more encouragement to people not to drink or abuse alcohol. The question we must ask is whether it is better to restrict alcohol advertising or to have media campaigns highlighting the dangers of alcohol abuse. I believe we should look for a 50-50 contribution. If people want to advertise alcohol, they should also have to contribute to advertise its dangers. What comment have the delegations to make on this as a step in the right direction.
In an ideal world we would all prefer that sports were not involved in alcohol advertisements. Finding sponsors for sports clubs and athletes is what will make a difference here. Many clubs and sports depend on pubs and other businesses for sponsorship, for example, we have the Heineken Cup for rugby. I would prefer if they did not have to depend on this sponsorship, but it is difficult to find others to commit resources. Should Government commit the extra resources to fill the gap if we restrict companies advertising alcohol from the area? We cannot put an end to this type of sponsorship until we have a solution because we want to encourage support of sport and clubs.
It has been suggested that we should have alcohol-free youth centres and outlets etc. in all areas. That is what we need. The pupils of every school I visit and all the young people I meet want this. Society has failed to provide them with facilities where they can hang out and do as they want. If we set up such centres they must be run well so that young people who use them cannot abuse drugs or alcohol in them. It is important for us to find common ground and work out how to make these facilities available.
I have a major concern about people who mix drugs and alcohol on a regular basis. It is common for some people to have a few pints and take a tablet or some speed. We have never had a debate on this aspect of the problem, the double abuse. I would like to see more information available on how to encourage people away from this type of abuse and to see some work done on finding out why they do it. I support the recommendation for a serious study on this area. We must get into the minds of people who abuse alcohol to discover why they must drink 15 pints rather than seven. What are the delegations' views on that?
I agree with most of the recommendations, particularly with regard to the need for greater enforcement of the laws. I am as concerned about pub closing times as off-licence sales. I see a problem with regard to closing time because it causes people to rush to get a few more drinks before they leave and, therefore, they drink more in a shorter space of time. Do the delegations see this as an issue? I believe more flexible opening hours would work better because they would put an end to the rush to get the drinks in before people have to leave. Will the group comment on that? Many countries are taking the route of flexible opening times. I do not agree that this may cause more drinking, but it will take the problem of alcohol abuse off the streets.
The pioneer association's main concern is alcohol abuse in the home and where it affects families. However, alcohol abuse is the cause of much crime in the streets, such as beatings, rows and physical assaults. This happens when groups leave the pubs and have to wait on the streets because there are no buses or taxis. We must either find a secure place for people to wait in each area or ensure that we have a transport system that can get people home quickly rather than have them hanging around the streets.
We need a major educational programme on alcohol abuse. We have talked about and debated the issue and we know the solutions, but we need to take action. Therefore, we need some group, not necessarily a new task force, that will implement what we know is best. Regardless of the law or opening hours, the people who want to abuse drink will do so. What we need to tackle is the reason they do so and we must make a serious move to do this. We can do it through education and talking to people and consider the example of people who have recovered from drug and alcohol abuse. The people who told their recovery stories on "The Late Late Show" did more to tackle the drug problem here than any group in a long time. We need to realise that it is the power of the media and people's personal stories that will convince us not to abuse drink or drugs.
We could debate the issue for a long time but I wanted to refer to these issues and I may come back to some of them.
I apologise for interrupting and thank Deputy Glennon for taking my place. I remind members of the committee that we are asking questions of the deputations.
I will bear that in mind. Fr. MacGréil made the point that some excessive drinking could be a form of semi-deliberate self-destruction in a social climate that lacks meaning. He spoke of the need for deeper research into alcohol abuse, which we cannot deny is a serious problem. Will he expand on what he means by that?
I share the view that there is a spiritual deficit in society. I do not mean just in a religious sense but in the sense of the better things in life, such as those of the spirit.
On the issue of self-destructive behaviour, society has a difficulty dealing with suicide involving males. Has research proved a link between the abuse of alcohol and suicide? I met a girl who had been rehabilitated from a drug addiction and had got her life back on track. She told of her early experience of "bushing". She was drinking from the age of 12. I asked her how she procured the drink and she explained that initially she and her friends went to each other's houses and took drink out of bottles of spirits, hoping it would not be noticed. In a pattern referred to by other speakers, they later moved on to getting drink by asking someone over the age of 18 to buy it for them.
I acknowledge the PTAA people are not anti-alcohol and nobody has a problem with well-run public houses. I know of many local family-run public houses where problems of over-consumption of alcohol are dealt with. I question whether it is as easy to do this in the larger public houses which are more anonymous. What evidence exists to show alcohol is a drug of entry to further drug abuse? To what extent are the illicit drugs being sold in licensed premises? This can present a significant problem for a publican because the people selling them will not be displaying their wares. What suggestions has the delegation for dealing with such cases?
The committee has decided that drug abuse and alcohol abuse should be taken together in the committee's report so this is not an issue. Mr. O'Donoghue's submission stated that 40% of drink is sold through off-licence outlets. The PTAA argument is that these outlets should no longer be allowed sell alcohol and that alcohol should only be sold in licensed premises.
In my local area when a minor team had won a championship the trainer of the winning team refused to go into the public house with the team because in his view some of the team should not have been consuming alcohol in a public house because they were under 18 years of age. The association of sport with the promotion of alcohol and the use of alcohol in celebrating success in sport is not a good way to develop young people. For those who drink alcohol in moderation it is acknowledged that public houses are an important part of our culture and serve a definite and useful social function. However, alcohol abuse is a monumental problem in this country with which we must come to terms.
There is a story from my area about Thomas Meagher, father of the patriot, Thomas Francis Meagher, who was mayor of Waterford in the early part of the 19th century. He brought the temperance priest, Father Mathew, to Waterford. The story goes that before 11 a.m. on the morning he came to Waterford, 10,000 men had signed the pledge. The only thing that puzzles me is there was no follow-up to that signing and I do not know how things went from there. Alcohol used in moderation and sold in a controlled and proper way will not cause a problem. Anecdotal evidence shows a link between the use of alcohol and drugs. This evidence is more than anecdotal in cases where the abuse of alcohol can be used as a drug of entry. What can be done to develop effective policies to deal with this problem of abuse? We will never get on top of it as no problem is ever fully solved but at this stage urgent and effective action is required.
I thank the delegations for their presentations. I will not go over the ground covered by my two colleagues other than to touch on the question of off-sales. The volume of off-sales has broken the 40% barrier. When one considers the volume of alcohol sales, 40% is a huge proportion which I suspect has already risen dramatically in the past few years.
My questions are all addressed to the vintners' organisations and I do not intend any offence to the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association. Do the vintners' associations represent off-licences, meaning licences which are granted solely for off-sales rather than publicans having an off-licence as part of their premises? This question is in the context of 40% of the business taking place through such outlets. I specifically mean non-pub outlets which are solely licensed for off-sales and not for consumption on the premises.
I do not expect a definitive answer to this question because it may put the delegations on the spot. Would either vintners' organisation have any fundamental objection to a serious examination of the licensing hours for off-sales from these outlets, from the non-publican outlets?
Go raibh maith agat. I dtosach is mian liom fáilte a chur roimh na toscaireachtaí anseo inniú agus tá an-áthas orm go bhfuil an cruinniú seo ag tarlú.
I welcome the delegations and I am delighted this session is taking place. It might be a hopeful sign that the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association and the vintners are sitting together in the one room. This may underline the sense of responsibility on both sides — if I may call them that.
Is there any possibility that an ongoing forum might be set up between the vintners and the pioneers? This would be a very good exercise and would reflect some of the concerns which exist regarding the abuse of alcohol. There is hardly a week in the Seanad when there is not a debate or when the subject is not raised on the Order of Business regarding some new incident of anti-social behaviour which seems to be associated with the abuse of alcohol.
I ask any of the delegations to comment peripherally on this matter. I have noticed that this is no longer an issue of fun. People no longer make jokes about it, which is very good. I hope that comedians and comediennes will stop using alcoholics as subjects for their jokes because nothing is particularly funny about seeing a misfortunate person lying on the side of the street or knowing of a family that has suffered at the hands of an alcoholic. We are maturing in this regard, which is a step in the right direction. We are beginning to look at the issue in a serious manner.
When we focused on the pubs, I felt that we were aiming at the wrong target. From my knowledge of them, publicans are very responsible, particularly in pubs where the family is involved. We should be much more honest and look to society as a whole to find the cause of some of the difficulties we have and to find the solutions. I ask the vintners to join the pioneers and the rest of us who have concerns in this area in eliminating some of the idolising of alcohol. As has been rightly said, alcohol in itself is a gift. People can enjoy it in a social manner and it is important that is the case. However, we know that binge drinking among young people is extensive. I heard interviews with young people who said they would work in McDonalds or similar establishments to earn money so that they could spend €200 getting drunk at the weekend. That is not in keeping with what we believe is the potential value of alcoholic beverages, yet it is widespread. We are most unfair to those young people in allowing society in some way to exonerate that type of behaviour.
Would the vintners have an objection to us prohibiting advertising alcoholic products as we have done with tobacco products? I do not believe it would undermine the bottom line on the balance sheet in any way. It is more or less a debate between brands rather than alcohol. I am delighted with the presentation by the vintners, which showed considerable responsible thinking and research that we cannot ignore. I would like the vintners to indicate that they would not have an objection to the removal of advertising of alcoholic products. This comes back to the societal aspect and eliminating the glamorisation that we saw with smoking in the past. Would the vintners object if the Government — this will put it up to the Government — were to pick up the tab for the sponsorship which would be lost by sporting organisations? It would obviously mean that the brand name would not be necessary.
I have seen certain festivals, which some years ago would have been associated with anti-social behaviour and which no longer have such problems. People seem to be participating more and therefore drinking sensibly. I am thinking about festivals which generally have a family element to them. It is not just young people attending but family groups with a degree of control and discipline. As a pioneer, I feel that if the vintners were proactive with the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association in these areas, we could create an excellent partnership. In my experience pubs are places where people gather socially and areas where people make contact with each other. I do not like to see them treated as scapegoats when this should not be the case. We can eliminate much of that by having such a partnership.
That partnership should extend further. People in public life should not pose with an alcoholic drink. It is not necessary that they should feel the need to do so as it sends the wrong message. It is like somebody with a particular sexual orientation not being happy with that being accepted by the community, but in some way they want to manifest it above every other sexual orientation, as happens with various parades in America where there is a degree of exhibitionism, which is not helpful. It would be worthwhile for everybody to take responsibility and not just look to the pubs as if they in some way should be the scapegoats. Again in my experience, I see very little of the anti-social behaviour within pubs — the anti-social behaviour takes place on the streets. While one could easily say that it emanates from the pubs, I am not prepared to accept that, and in many cases the issues are with nightclubs and not pubs.
In recent years young people seem to be prepared to consider challenges they were not prepared to consider years ago. I see this in the area of sexual promiscuity, for instance. In both America and Ireland, young people are no longer prepared to be associated with that tag. They want to come out and say: "Look, we want to live a normal life; we want to be responsible; we want to be able to get out of childhood in a particular way; we don't want to have our childhood robbed from us." I come across this attitude frequently. The same could apply in giving a challenge to young people if we could get certain role models for them. Why must the role model always be the drug-taker or the foul-mouthed individual who cannot go on television without using four-letter words and insulting nearly every family in the country? We are ripe for this type of crusade, which was not the case some years ago when we were regarded as archaic, old-fashioned sticks-in-the-mud. People have seen the damage that has been done. Has the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association seen the opportunity and potential for giving these challenges back to young people?
On the one hand, we must accept the excesses that exist in terms of abuse of alcohol. The vintners are quite right to distance themselves from this behaviour. They should not take the blame, it is not their fault. On the other hand we need to involve the main players in society, including public representatives, vintners, the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association and the media. Why not give the good news rather than the bad news? A partnership in this regard could truly reflect the concern that exists. One Tuesday two years ago after I read editorials in all the daily newspapers complaining about the abuse of alcohol and anti-social behaviour, I said in the Seanad that I felt we were on a roll towards doing something about it. However, we did not seize the opportunity at the time to capitalise on the widespread concern, which was being expressed. Perhaps the media could also be brought into the equation.
I am delighted we are all sitting in the same room and I hope that today will not be the end of the interaction as we are all focused on finding some definite resolution to the terrible difficulties we face.
I welcome the various delegations and thank them for their concise presentations. It is nice and positive that the representatives of the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association, the Licensed Vintners Association and the Vintners Federation of Ireland are sitting in the same room to try to address an ever-increasing problem. That the sands are shifting is clear when one considers that 66% of 15 and 16 year old boys are current drinkers and 33% of 15 and 16 year olds engage in binge drinking. Some 30% of road accidents and 40% of fatal road accidents are due to the consumption of alcohol. I wonder whether the correct figures are even higher. It can be estimated that 200 people died on our roads due to alcohol last year.
Binge drinking is quite prevalent at present. We have to tackle this aspect of our culture. I was a vintner some years ago. I like to take a drink, although I am more of a social drinker than an actual drinker. I would like to speak about why this meeting of the committee has been arranged. It is obvious that pubs have not been as busy over the past two or three years, since the smoking ban was introduced and many people's lifestyles changed as they became busier. When I walked around Ballsbridge last night, I noticed that there were just two or three people in many pubs. We need to be more concerned about the availability of alcohol in off-licences than in pubs. The whole culture has changed as the level of consumption of alcoholic drinks on licensed premises has decreased.
Over the years, vintners have been deemed to be those who serve alcohol to young people in public houses. I am certain that they were the best circumstances in which young people could have a drink because the environment was controlled. Two months ago, I decided to buy two cases of beer for an event in my local area. I have been looking at the cases for the past two months because they were not used at the party. As I did not want to drink them — I drink only when I am in a pub — I decided yesterday to give them to a publican to sell them. I did not ask for any money for the two cases. If one goes into a pub to have two or three drinks, one does so in a controlled environment. Even though I am not short of a few pounds, I felt it would be better to drink the beer than to throw it out.
When one is pushing one's trolley around one of the supermarket multiples, many of which have taken advantage of the easing of the restrictions on the sale of alcohol, it is quite tempting to decide to buy some alcohol for one's house when one sees that 22 or 24 cans are being sold for €17 or €18. If there is a great deal of alcohol in one's house, one will face a challenge because one will feel one should drink it. Instead, one should do what I did yesterday — it nearly killed me to do it — and give the alcohol one does not need to a publican to sell it for half nothing. We will face a huge challenge as the shift I have mentioned continues.
Some speakers referred to the huge issue of drugs. I read over the weekend that drugs like cocaine and marijuana are now commonly available at parties which do not take place in a controlled environment. This problem will increase tenfold now that social activities are more likely to take place in environments which are not controlled by licensees. The Garda does not have control over the houses in which such parties take place. We face a huge epidemic of abuse of alcohol and illegal drugs. This committee should try to deal with such problems.
This meeting has been arranged to give the groups in attendance an opportunity to state whether they believe that alcohol should be included under the national drugs strategy. That is the focus of the meeting and that is what we are asking people to comment on.
No, I do not think that is the question we should be asking here today.
That is what we are asking. We are compiling a report on the matter. That is why we are here.
I will propose that it be included in the report that nobody is controlling the consumption of alcohol following the demise of the public house. Let us be honest, there has been a demise in the public house. A special Garda force will have to be established to deal with house parties in all parts of the country at which unrestricted amounts of alcohol and illegal drugs are being consumed. I emphasise that this type of behaviour will become a major problem. As a public representative, I am delighted that I do not have to go into a pub to meet my constituents. Many party meetings are held outside pubs. Public representatives were asked by Barnardos many years ago to ensure we are not seen with alcohol in photographs. At first I did not think it was a good idea, but I now think it is an excellent idea. Like most politicians, I am now used to putting down my glass as soon as I see a photographer.
We are talking about circumstances which have changed. We need to concentrate on new circumstances, such as the consumption of drink and drugs at house parties. While I accept that the abuse of alcohol is a serious matter, I do not think drink should be included in the national drugs strategy. Vintners have called for the introduction of mandatory age cards and have initiated safe driving campaigns, focusing on encouraging designated drivers and preventing drink driving. We need to accept that over the past two years the problem has moved from pubs to back rooms and houses, where we have no control over it. I reiterate that we will encounter serious problems with alcohol and drugs if the phenomenon I have mentioned is not addressed. I do not know how we can address it.
We are having this meeting because we are considering the inclusion of alcohol in the national drugs strategy, which would mean that alcohol abuse would have the same level of priority as drug abuse when decisions are being made on spending allocations. We are trying to get information in the context of a compilation of a report on the matter.
I suggest that every private house in the country should be targeted by some police force.
We are here to get information from the vintners.
I would like to inform the delegations that I will have to leave this meeting soon because I am due to take the Chair in the Dáil at 6 p.m. I will not be doing so due to bad manners.
As a former member of the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association and someone whose father and grandparents were pioneers, I welcome the representatives of the association to this meeting. It seems that I have a connection with almost all the delegations and, as a former member of the Vintners Federation of Ireland and a former publican, I welcome the representatives of the federation to this meeting. I also welcome the Licensed Vintners Association, even though I never fulfilled my ambition of becoming a member of the association, unfortunately. I had to settle for a small country pub in rural Ireland. I am delighted that these three concerned, conscientious and responsible groups have realised that there is a problem in this area and that they need to come together to face up to their responsibilities. Anything in moderation is recommended. I will ask some questions in a moment.
I am particularly delighted that some myths relating to publicans are finally being put to bed as it is high time that happened. For far too long, we had to listen to people bashing this country's publicans in an unfair manner. Pubs are not the only outlets where alcohol is sold. When people are discussing the problems caused by the sale of alcohol, I appeal to them to realise there are many different type of licences and outlets in this country. I never seem to hear people referring to outlets other than public houses, the managers of which act in a responsible manner. If everyone had acted as responsibly as the managers of public houses have acted since the foundation of the State, I do not think we would be facing the major problems which exist at present.
The members of the committee have been asked to ask a few questions. Do all the groups favour the introduction of a national identity card scheme? Do they accept the State cannot solve all problems as it needs the assistance of different groups? There are many seven-day licences that people call pocket licences. Do the witness groups agree there are enough licences, and that no more should be issued for the time being? I am of the opinion there are enough outlets but I am interested in hearing the opinion of the witnesses.
Do the witness groups envisage getting together on a pilot scheme which would involve a pub with no beer? I am serious about this. In America I could not understand why so many people between the ages of 18 and 21 were going to cafés. I discovered they went to cafés because they could not legally access alcohol. Some of the cafés were set up like pubs but they did not sell alcoholic drink. It might not be a bad idea to have at least one such premises here. Such an outlet could be built like a pub, would look like a pub but no alcohol would be available.
I will stick to the subject of alcohol as we are discussing it today, and I will leave the subject of drugs for another day, except to ask when people will realise the major problem we have relates to drugs. This has been forecast for years. The Government is tackling the problem. It has invested a great deal of money in this area and it will invest more. I appeal to parents to ask their children if they are taking drugs. They should confront them on this issue. When surveys appear on drug and alcohol intake, people admit to drinking alcohol but they will not admit to taking drugs. We will not go into the criminality issue of drug-taking and the fear it instills in people, but people have no problem in saying they take a few drinks.
I welcome the groups and thank them for listening to me. It is a good day for us all when responsible people get together to solve a problem.
I welcome the delegations. I largely agree with what the previous speaker said. I will preface my question with some observations. I worked in the pub trade for some years and believe alcohol abuse has become a problem only in recent years. In the past pubs closed at 11.30 p.m. and people went home because they could not get drink anywhere else. Now people can get drink 24 hours a day in service stations. I stopped at a petrol station last week when I was coming home from a function at 1.30 a.m. Mr. O'Sullivan would know the petrol station very well as it is on the Howth Road. I saw somebody purchase two bottles of wine at that time of the night. One can get drink almost anywhere now. The only retail outlets in which one will not get alcohol are pharmacies and hairdressing salons.
One can get it in a hairdressers.
In most other places one can get alcohol at any hour. These service stations are open 24 hours and they throw out drink to people through the hatch without any bother. I could not believe what I saw happening in that petrol station and it was obvious the man concerned had already drunk an amount of alcohol prior to purchasing the wine.
The other problem now is that when one leaves a pub one can go to another establishment on the quays in Dublin where one can drink until 6 a.m. in the morning. As a result, people are not able to go to work the following day. These are the issues we should be tackling. I do not know the law in regard to service stations, but I believe they are obliged to abide by restrictions governing the sale of alcohol at certain times. However, the law is not being implemented in this area.
Deputy Kelly referred to drugs. One can buy an ecstasy tablet or cocaine cheaper than one can buy a pint of Guinness. Most publicans know when a person has had enough to drink and refuse customers additional drink if they present a danger to themselves. Most anti-social behaviour is not being committed by people who have been in pubs, it emanates largely from people who buy 24 cans of Guinness or cider for €30. If they were to buy the same amount of drink in a pub it would cost them €120. They consume all the drink they buy and they then go bananas. These people are like Balubas and they terrorise everybody. Senator Feighan referred to people going back to somebody's house where they drink until 6 a.m. and upset their neighbours and the entire neighbourhood. When the Garda are called they are too busy doing other things. These people also put a strain on Garda resources. We must implement the law in regard to the sale of alcohol in service stations. That is not being done at present.
I congratulate all the witnesses for attending. It is good to see them together. I know Mr. O'Sullivan very well. He does a good job in a very balanced and responsible way. As Deputy Kelly stated, publicans are blamed for everything. I come from the town of Virginia where there are 13 pubs. The population of the town has increased dramatically in recent times with people moving from Dublin. Only one person in that town owns a pub, the others are leased. Five leases were handed back last week because it was not possible for people to make a living. Fewer people are going to pubs. I attended a function in a large pub in Clontarf last Saturday night — Mr. O'Sullivan would be familiar with it — and there were about 35 people in it. Pubs are not the problem.
A number of questions have been asked and a number of statements have been made. I will, therefore, try to be as brief as possible.
Enough said.
One should be wary of anyone who says he or she will be brief. Deputy Glennon said people should ask questions.
The issue at stake is whether alcohol should be included in the next drugs strategy. The feedback from the vintners' groups is that it should not. The feedback from the pioneers is that there should be one strategy for drugs and another for alcohol. I am inclined to agree with the latter suggestion.
I do not know if the issue of late openings has been mentioned. This is leading to much of the anti-social behaviour on the streets. People are spilling out of pubs drunk all at the one time and that is what is creating the mayhem. Taxi drivers in particular say this is the case. They are the people at the coalface, not the politicians who are all in bed at that time. Very few politicians would be foolish enough to be on the streets when people come out of pubs. I occasionally happen to be out at that time and I have never seen a politician on the street. Bar staff are also at the coalface. I get my information from the members of local taxi association in Tralee, who claim it is obvious that since closing time was extended there has been an increase in anti-social behaviour. Does the delegation agree with that?
Some 20 years ago, Listowel in County Kerry had 54 pubs — Senator Ó Murchú will be aware of that with all the fleadhanna we organised in the town. Now there are half that number of pubs. It seems they are closing their doors. I agree with previous speakers that pubs are a controlled environment and are well run. If there is a problem with a particular pub, the Garda can resolve it. The pub in rural Ireland is a social centre. In rural Ireland places for people to meet, such as creameries, have gone. People do not congregate in front of the church anymore. The pub is the one place where people meet over several drinks. If the rural pub disappears, it will be a major blow to rural communities. How many pubs in rural Ireland have been closed in the past 20 years?
Legislation was introduced to allow publicans not to serve intoxicated individuals. The provision was made specifically to control alcohol consumption in pubs. Publicans will claim people will purchase alcohol at an off-licence, consume it and get drunk. They then go to a pub to meet people. Has that legal provision been used by publicans?
I agree that sporting events, teams and festivals should not carry advertising brands for drinks products. However, if the sponsorship is not taken, sporting events and festivals will collapse. I am involved in a local festival in County Kerry, and last year Guinness pulled out of sponsoring that festival and others. As a result several festivals did not take place. Festivals that are well run and attract tourists should be funded by Fáilte Ireland. It must be recognised that but for Guinness sponsorship many festivals would not have been held. If it is decided to ban drinks industry sponsorship of events, the funding will have to be made up from a different source. Otherwise many festivals will collapse.
I taught physical education with Mr. Padraic Naughton in the same school, and we agree that more recreational facilities are needed. People used to believe that it was simply a matter of putting national lottery moneys into football fields. However, recreational buildings are also needed. Most recreational buildings are closed at 9 p.m. and over the weekend when people need them most. Another problem is the lack of professional staff to run them. There is no point in having recreational facilities for young people unless they are properly resourced. The proposal that they should be better resourced and alcohol-free would make these facilities effective in curbing drinking among young people. I have seen several examples where it works. Young people attending these facilities will claim that if they were not available, they would be in a bar. I note the association's proposal on the separate drugs and alcohol strategy.
I apologise for missing the presentation but I had a meeting with the Taoiseach on an important issue. I could not put it back and I decided to keep him sweet.
I know many wide-ranging questions have been asked. However, the central focus of the meeting is that everyone in the world recognises Ireland as a place to come for the drink and the craic. Thankfully, the drink and craic is still going but, unfortunately, it is being replaced by drink and crack cocaine. I note the comments on the two separate alcohol and drugs strategies. Can the pioneer association comment on what would be different in its approach of having a combined strategy? There are two Departments dealing with the issues. One is known as the national strategy and the other comes under the remit of a Minister. I assume the association's approach would be to have the two strategies under the one Department. Will the issue have to be prioritised by the Government?
Legislation was introduced on where tobacco products can be consumed and where they can be advertised, and that has led to a reduction in consumption of these products. What would be the reason not to deal with alcohol products in a similar manner? Will we be forgiven any longer for turning a blind eye?
The committee has heard the statistics of the strong links between suicide and alcohol. Women's Aid has informed the committee that one in five women will experience domestic violence, 71% of such cases attributed to drink. The organisation pointed out that such violence tends to turn its victims to drink and keeps them in abusive environments. My comments are not directed just at the vintners as everyone has a role to play in this.
Our legislation on tobacco is being replicated across the world. Last week, I was in Chile where a ban on smoking in public places has been introduced. The Chileans view alcohol and tobacco as legal drugs which are habit-forming and lead to potential misuse. The Chileans are considering whether to bring their alcohol strategy under the national drugs strategy. They are asking us the same question that we are asking them, that is, whether one can succeed if there are two separate strategies. It is a question of whether there should be two national task forces.
I was asked why committee members had visited Chile. We did so because we felt Chilean wine was being blamed for the alcohol problem in Ireland. It was a funny way of introducing the matter, yet Miguel Torres of the Torres wine producing family said at an event held in the past fortnight and attended by the Irish consul that per capita Ireland was the highest consumer of Chilean wine in the world. Concha y Toro is now supplying wine to 140 countries.
We think the statistic that we drink more than anybody else is great. Ireland is known as a place to come if one wants to drink. RTE surveyed tourists on St. Patrick's Day and asked them why they had come to Ireland. Some replied it was the only place they could drink until they dropped. It was felt this was expected of one. How can we strike a balance such that vintners will be able to sell alcohol, while at the same time a message can be sent to citizens and tourists that enough is good and that too much is bad?
I should have begun by declaring an interest in that I am not a pioneer. In what campaigns, if any, are the delegates engaged? They might have covered this in their submissions. I saw a strong advertisement on ITV in which a very dishevelled girl woke up in a bedroom and did not know what had happened to her. The message is very strong and suggests anything could have happened. What campaigns should be conducted? Which ones have been effective and which have been ineffective? Do the delegates believe they have a role to play in such campaigns?
Representatives of Dáil na nÓg came before the committee some months ago and asked for non-alcohol-related recreational facilities. I asked them whether they felt young people would use such facilities and their statistics suggested they would. It was very heartening to hear the views of those representatives and I compliment them on their line of thinking. We expect the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association to hold the same view.
Many questions arise from what we have heard this afternoon. I agree with Deputy Deenihan that there are many new centres, perhaps as a result of sports funding through the national lottery. Perhaps we do not have enough people to run them. This applies not only to the issue of alcohol but also to sports, etc.
Will one representative from each group summarise each group's respective position? If they do not have relevant statistics to hand, they may forward them later. I would like to give each group sufficient time. We will start with the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association.
Fr. Mac Gréil
Mr. Kitson would be more familiar with the question on the take-up by young people. He might address it, after which I will deal with the others.
Mr. Kitson
As president of the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association, in recent times I have been heartened by the high level of growth in the number of young people we are attracting into the organisation. We have worked hard to promote the association in recent years in order that it will become the kind of organisation it should be, one that provides a viable alternative for young people in order that they will not be obliged to conform to the standards of a society which, unfortunately, seems to expect them to engage in alcohol consumption and, in some cases, drug taking.
In 1997 we formed a national youth committee to examine specifically what we could do. It has been very proactive and set up youth groups among primary and secondary schools. I was the national youth officer of the association and visited schools nationwide. This work is ongoing and we are receiving more invitations from schools than we can cope with. In this respect, funding would be welcome as it would allow us to put in place an education programme for young people such as that mentioned by Deputy English.
I am a near neighbour of Deputy Johnny Brady — I am a Cavan man from Ballyjamesduff which is only six miles down the road from him. The association holds a meeting every Friday evening for young people aged between 12 and 18 years. We often have more than 100 young people engaged in supervised non-alcohol-related activities. We hold sports competitions and any person who is serious about sport and has a sports mentor will say the use and, particularly, the abuse of alcohol are certainly not acceptable in such circumstances. They will not help.
We were fortunate to host the National Pioneer Ball last Saturday evening in Cavan town. Upwards of 500 members of the association gathered for this fantastic social event which demonstrates once again that people can enjoy themselves without alcohol. If one asks any child where the majority of scenes in "Coronation Street" are filmed, he or she will tell one. If one asks the same question about "Fair City", he or she will tell one. The same is true of "East Enders" and all the other soaps. This is giving our young people a negative message about alcohol. We in the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association thoroughly respect the manner in which publicans address their business. They do so responsibly and this is not an issue. However, young people should not be given the impression that alcohol is the only way to enjoy an occasion and celebrate.
Our association has a number of facilities and holds sports, academic and talent competitions. We have worked very hard to organise events that suit all tastes. Funding for these would be greatly appreciated.
Mr. Naughton
I will reply to Senator ÓMurchú before Fr. Mac Gréil replies. He gave a terrific summation of the issue. One should note that in the past year over 15,000 young pioneers joined the association. We asked them why and they said they were able to stand on their own two feet and did not like seeing their pals sick. They said "sick" rather than "drunk".
It is nice to meet Deputy Deenihan here rather than on the football pitch, as it is safer. I could not agree more with him that facilities are the key for young people. Publicans have a clientele that will enter their premises but if young people have a place to go to in the evenings, they will go there. Naturally, not all will go but most will use supervised facilities. Deputy Deenihan put his finger on what militates against this — the lack of professionals to run the facilities and the cost of insurance. The cost of insurance is stymying all our initiatives. All one hears is people asking where they will get the money to pay for insurance.
On Senator Ó Murchú's point, perhaps we should be considering the question of group insurance such that all groups could make one application to the insurance bodies. This would result in a lower cost.
Fr. Mac Gréil
I will address the issues chronologically and will, first, address Deputy English's question to me. By nature, I am a researcher and believe we have not researched sufficiently comprehensively the reasons people are abusing alcohol. This relates to Deputy O'Shea's comments. I have researched social anomie because it forms part of my research. I have also examined Durkheim's analysis of anomic suicide and such matters. I was always wanting to carry out more research, but if one could establish an interdisciplinary group of academics and let them into the field only when one was satisfied with their questions and the hypotheses they had formulated to anticipate causes, one could make an enormous contribution to the Licensed Vintners Federation, the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association and the State.
There is a deep malaise in Irish society. Why are young people in self-destruct mode? Why are they willingly destroying their personal freedom? The one enemy of freedom is addiction. I recently read that 34% of sexual abuse is alcohol-related in the sense that people are waking up and not knowing who they were with the night before. There is no safe sex if drink, drugs or a combination of the two is involved. If one could focus on one thing for those interested in drugs and alcohol, it would be to discover why people are so vulnerable to such addiction.
My second point is that "bushing" is far more important than we realised, as the gardaí will tell one. There must be legislative control over the availability of alcohol and access thereto. There are incidents on trains. A train taking people to a hurling match in Waterford was torn up. We do not think it at all responsible to allow people to bring cans of alcohol onto trains, particularly those taking people to football matches, where people are emotionally high. It is an explosive situation, and there is no control over drinking on a train. An adult can buy alcohol in the bar on a train, but one does not know who will consume it.
Deputy O'Shea asked about the link between meaning and research. Human beings require interests and meanings, according to Max Weber, something I feel is true. When the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association was established, most abuse of alcohol was by destitute people. It was an escape from their situation, since they literally went on a trip. Today, however, people are not drinking because of misery but because of excess or boredom. That boredom stems from a lack of meaning in life, so there is a deficiency in the socialisation of the young that we must try to address.
The next question came from Deputy Glennon and concerned off-licences. I will leave that to the Licensed Vintners Federation to answer. Tá an-áthas orm an Seanadóir Labhrás Ó Murchú a fheiceáil anseo. I dtaobh an mholta a chuir sé ar aghaidh, nár dheas an rud é dá mbeimis in ann teacht le chéile leis na vintners. Is iomaí uair a dúirt mé go raibh muidne agus na tabhairneoirí ag obair ar son na haidhme céanna. A responsible pub is a centre for the moderate use of alcohol, and perhaps I might read from our constitution. Article 21 encourages temperance in the use of alcohol and commends all moderate drinkers. Article 22 states that the support of moderate drinkers in the mission of the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association is essential and acknowledged. I have not yet fulfilled Article 23. We must find a way to involve moderate drinkers more in supporting the pioneers' mission. It has been a very sensitive area. One famous priest tried to establish membership for moderate drinkers, but the purists in our ranks shot him down. However, we will address that.
Senator Feighan acknowledged that the Licensed Vintners Federation and the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association are here together. We should work together. We cannot decide anything here alone, since we have a board, but we will certainly relay the suggestion. I hope the vintners will do likewise, and perhaps we might meet to identify areas where we could help each other. I am particularly worried about night clubs, and the vintners themselves should examine them, since they are giving pubs a bad name.
Deputy Kelly asked many questions such as whether we have a national identity scheme. We do have such a scheme. I do not know the significance of the question on seven-day licences, and I will have to find out. I do not know whether there are enough licences, and I do nothing without research. Regarding a pilot scheme of a pub with no beer, I am told we have one in Armagh, which is good. Drugs are a major problem, but a survey of north Dublin parents asked what worried them, and 70% thought that alcohol was more serious.
Deputies Brady and Deenihan also asked questions. With regard to answering the Chair's question about what we want and whether everything should be brought under the single heading of drugs, doing so would be problematic. I would have two task forces dealing with the problems. There are good things about alcohol, but having the two task forces working in close co-operation would be my solution. That would not necessarily mean a continuation of the present situation.
There is no effective task force to deal with the alcohol problem. To my knowledge, there is no special unit in the Garda. There should be a special dimension to the training of gardaí at Templemore, and perhaps prison officers too. I sat on the McBride Commission on prisons, and we recommended that those convicted of alcohol-related offences should be sent not to jail but to alcohol rehabilitation centres. Much good work is done there that might be investigated, since prison is not the place to send those convicted of addiction. It would be far more positive to send them elsewhere, and we should also reconsider sending people to prison over drug-related issues. Prisons are not equipped to rehabilitate them.
A scheme is to be introduced regarding drugs. Those convicted are being offered rehabilitation instead.
Fr. Mac Gréil
Why binge drinking is occurring must come under the heading of research; it is very serious. I am glad Dáil na nÓg agreed. As members know, I spent 33 years lecturing at university and witnessed the introduction of bars on campus, following which there was a deterioration in students' performance. We should control the availability of alcohol to young people. I hope I can speak for the full deputation when I say this has been a great experience for us, and we are very impressed by our colleagues' contributions. We are all here to the same end. In the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association, we encourage those under 18 not to drink and those older than 18 to do so in moderation. We are not a pledge movement but one for moderation, and we give up drink because we believe we will work for a better movement. The pioneer is not a prohibitionist. We cannot be described as TTH, someone who does not touch, taste or handle alcohol. The opposite is the case. I can go into a pub and buy a drink for my friends without fear, favour or contradiction.
I thank the committee for inviting us. Many questions have been raised that I cannot answer on the spot but we will think about them and perhaps submit a reply in writing. We have extra copies of our presentation that may be given to members of the committee who are not present.
I should explain that there are different things happening at the one time. At this moment anybody in the Dáil or Seanad could be linked to us by television. Therefore, we are not on our own.
I am a working publican and president of the Vintners Federation of Ireland. I will answer some of the questions put to us, while our CEO will deal with the technical aspects.
Deputy English referred to the mindset of young people while consuming alcohol. When I started to drink, the enjoyment was to be had on the road getting to the pub. Nowadays the enjoyment is to be had in the pub. Therefore, the educational aspect needs to be addressed for young people. The Deputy also mentioned the problems experienced on leaving the pub and in the marketplace. No problems are encountered outside pubs on Monday to Thursday nights and, in most places, at weekends. However, the last speaker from the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association talked about night clubs, in respect of which many of the problems on the streets apparently arise. They also arise at chip shops and late night eating establishments, as well as taxi ranks.
Deputy Glennon inquired about the position of our associations on stand-alone off-licences. As a federation, we have a wing that was involved in the off-licence trade. Essentially, it was an extension of the pub. However, we do not have a stand-alone unit.
A question was also asked about the number of off-licences. I am sure everyone present is aware that in recent years the level of on-trade consumption has gone down, while the level of trade in the off-licence sector has increased. It is self-evident that the problems have escalated.
Senator Ó Murchú asked whether we would have a problem in working with the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association. Under no circumstances would we have a problem in working with it. There is a major problem and we all have responsibilities. We will work with anybody in addressing it. I am not making little of the PTAA in that respect. We will work with whomever we can to find a solution and are only too delighted to do so.
Senator Deenihan spoke about advertising. It is a major issue. Should drinks companies be allowed to advertise at sports events? If there is nobody else to pick up the cudgel, what is the story? In the case of a local team, a pub has its name put across the jersey. If another entity does so, well and good, because I am sure publicans could find a better way of advertising.
Senator Feighan talked about the sale of pubs, while Deputy Deenihan mentioned the reduction in the number in Listowel. A question was asked about the general trend. In the past two years we have lost 600 members and are now down to 5,700. Some 500 of the 600 have moved into the off-licence sector. Outside pharmaceuticals, the on-trade business is the most regulated retail sector in the country.
Deputy Kelly wanted to know whether we would have any objection to the introduction of an ID card scheme. We would have no such problem. In fact, we have been looking for such a scheme since 1983 but in their wisdom the powers-that-be have not seen fit to introduce them. They would alleviate many of the problems we experience.
The Deputy also talked about pocket licences. There is a pocket licence when a pub closes and the licence is not functional. Early in the last century it was suggested, in the context of the 1902 Act and the 1925 commission, that such licences should be bought by the State. The Deputy also asked whether there were too many licences. It is self-evident that there are. This is reflected in the number of pubs that have closed and the fact that turnover has gone down. What does the future hold? Given the numbers involved, it does not look healthy in the long term.
The drugs problem is a relatively recent one. We are here to deal with the question of whether alcohol should be included in the national drugs strategy. I believe they are separate issues. As such, we would not have a problem with alcohol being included in a different strategy from the national drugs strategy.
Deputy Brady talked about ecstasy tablets. I heard on radio today that they were selling at in the region of €3, far less than the cost of a pint of beer. I do not have to say more on the issue.
What is the purpose in allowing late opening since most publicans can close their premises much earlier than heretofore? On a few special occasions there will be a late bar. In that regard, we had a major problem with our members last year during the Christmas period when many of them assumed bars would remain open until 12.30 a.m. As it was a Sunday, they should actually have remained open until 11.30 p.m.
The Chairman mentioned a possible reduction in the level of tobacco consumption since the smoking ban was introduced but CSO figures indicate otherwise.
Was there not a 10% drop in sales?
There are more people smoking. A major contributory factor was the amount of tobacco available on the street and where it emanated from. The answer falls into the same category — the drug barons.
Mr. O’Sullivan
In so far as there is abuse of alcohol by youngsters, the problem is they have nowhere else to go. This issue has been touched on by a number of speakers.
As regards the difficulties experienced on the streets after closing time, what about the provision of transport services? People cannot get home because there is no public transport service available.
Pubs do not want persons under the age of 18 years on their premises. There are circumstances where they have to provide food for families, at lunchtime for example, but in general pubs do not want children and persons under the age of 18 years running around the place.
There is a representative organisation for the off-trade sector, the National Off-Licence Association. Changes in legislation in recent years have meant that, while there was a general call for a reduction in the availability of alcohol on St. Patrick's Day, supermarkets, off-licences and the Tescos of this world were selling it at 7.30 a.m. Off-licences and supermarkets are now in a position to sell alcohol 17 hours a day, six and a half days per week. We would have no fundamental objection to the licensing hours for off-sales being addressed. How they are addressed is essentially a matter for the Oireachtas. If the Government was to pick up the tab for sponsorship of festivals and events, it would be great. Unfortunately, that is not an issue.
On the question of abuse, I agree with my colleagues in the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association that we all have a responsibility. In our presentation we have listed a number of initiatives in which the Vintners Federation of Ireland and our colleagues in the LVA have been involved in recent times. Senator Feighan referred to binge drinking among 15 and 16 year olds. They are not binge drinking in pubs because the pub is a controlled environment. However, changes in legislation mean that one can walk into a tobacconist, newsagent or mini-supermarket and walk out with 22 pints of beer at low cost in a tray of 24 half litre cans. That is an issue for the entire industry and trade.
Generally, pubs are stakeholders. They have a huge investment to protect. Legislation is in place which can provide for pubs losing their licences if they trade irrationally and unfairly. That is as it should be.
The president has dealt with the issue of favouring the buyout or support of what we call in-pocket licences. I do not believe the Oireachtas will make money available in this regard, given that the system was changed in 1932 following the 1925 commission. However, on whether there are enough licences, there are three times more liquor licences per 1,000 of population in Ireland than in the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland. By any standards, we have too many pubs, which is beginning to be recognised. Not only do we have too many pubs but the number of outlets for the sale of alcohol through off-sales has also dramatically increased in recent years through the availability of wine off-licences which permit newsagents and small stores to sell beer also.
With regard to working with the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association, as the president said, why not? Service stations now provide a service and make alcohol available.
Deputy Deenihan asked about the right to refuse. The issue concerns the Equal Status Act. There have been particular problems in Listowel where pubs which had refused people who were drunk or violent subsequently found themselves before the Equality Tribunal or the District Court. Under the Liquor Licensing Act, provision is made whereby a publican is obliged to refuse a person who has had too much to drink. Unfortunately, another Act is mentioned on the back of that page, which states that if certain people are refused on the basis that they are drunk, the publican will end up in court because of the equal status provisions. That has been a major bugbear. To be fair to the Oireachtas, it has recognised this difficulty in the change to the 2003 Act, which has helped to lessen the problem.
It is a key issue.
We are under time pressure.
I accept that but this is a key issue because people are arriving drunk in pubs.
Mr. O’Sullivan
They are. The Chairman raised the question of the balance between the right to sell alcohol and the right to consume it. Essentially, we are talking about the difference between use and abuse. We return time and again to this issue.
The Pioneer Total Abstinence Association and everybody else recognises the right of a person to drink in moderation. The problems of society are caused by the proportion who abuse alcohol. We have been and are engaged in anti-abuse campaigns. Members will have seen the "Enjoy X, Y or Z sensibly" advertisements. These are part of a campaign introduced by Mature Enjoyment of Alcohol in Society, MEAS, the organisation established by our colleagues in the LVA and the Vintners Federation of Ireland.
With regard to youth, we come back to the absence of recreational alternatives. There is nowhere for youngsters to go. They inveigle their way into pubs or older people to purchase alcohol for them in off-licences, which will be consumed in the alleyways, parks and car parks of our towns and cities. If a 19 year old walks into a newsagent's shop and buys 24 half litre cans, he or she is legally entitled to do so under current legislation. We must assume and hope he or she would not drink all of the cans himself or herself but we have no way of knowing with whom he or she will share them. That is part of the difficulty.
There is a need to control the availability of alcohol among the young, a measure the Vintners Federation of Ireland will absolutely support. We have called for the help of the national age card for close to 20 years but that call has fallen on deaf ears. While provision was made for it in the 1988 Act, it was never introduced. While it may seem strange, there is no reason the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association and ourselves should not be in the same room at this or any other time.
Mr. O’Keeffe
We are heartened by the broad recognition that the pub is a controlled and safe environment and that the channels through which alcohol is sold are changing dramatically. Some 15 years ago less than 10% of the alcohol sold was sold through the off-sector. Today, that percentage is over 40% and growing by 12% to 14% per annum. Ten years ago there were 360 wine off-licences, whereas now there are over 2,000. It is clear to the LVA that the availability of the off-sector is strongly linked to under-age drinking. There is much research to show that very young teenagers, in particular, source alcohol, either from the home or through the off-licence sector, whether purchased legally by an adult and given to them, or bought directly through the supermarket.
We must recognise that growth in availability has consequences. One of the issues about which we would be extremely concerned is that given the abolition of the groceries order and the failure of the Government to exclude alcohol from the order, alcohol will become increasingly cheaper. As a society, we must recognise the role multiple retailers play in selling alcohol, which is not recognised fully. Multiple supermarkets are the largest retailers of alcohol in Ireland, full stop. Alcohol will become cheaper in supermarkets and it is generally acknowledged that the level of control in supermarkets is far lower than in independent off-licences and pubs. Worrying factors are evident in terms of alcohol abuse generally.
As we would have identical positions to those outlined by the Vintners Federation of Ireland, I do not propose to replicate its case. However, I will add points that have not been addressed. We strongly support, and have requested, research into the causes of binge drinking. Publicans clearly state the young of today are drinking in a totally different fashion from those of the previous generation. It is a complex societal and personal issue. In attempting to address it, we need to understand it. We are strongly supportive of the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association's recommendation on research.
To clarify one point for Deputy Deenihan, while we want a national alcohol strategy, we do not believe it should form part of the drugs strategy. Since the publication of the strategic task force report, we have supported the recommendation that a national alcohol strategy should be developed under the auspices of the Department of the Taoiseach and enacted quickly. One of the issues is that several Departments are involved in the trade, including the Department of Finance from a financial perspective, the Department of Health and Children from a health promotion and public health perspective and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, through the Garda, in the context of licensing law. We believe the Department of Education and Science should have a far greater role in the alcohol trade and the education of young people on abuse and its physical and sociological effects. A co-ordinating body is needed to pull this together. The obvious co-ordinating body, in the context of the report of the strategic task force, is the Department of the Taoiseach.
With regard to closing hours, we are on the record as stating there is a strong case to be made for sequential closing, with traditional pubs closing at 11.30 p.m., late night bars closing at 1.30 p.m. and night clubs closing later again. One of the issues in regard to public order is that when people all come onto the streets together, the transport infrastructure cannot transport them out of towns quickly enough and as a result they congregate at taxi ranks, bus stops or chippers.
There are some matters I wish to put on record regarding advertising campaigns dealing with alcohol abuse and their funding. The LVA, VFI and the major drinks manufacturers fund Mature Enjoyment of Alcohol in Society, MEAS, which is an industry body that promotes social responsibility. MEAS has spent considerable sums of money on advertising designed to make people question their behaviour towards alcohol. The overall theme of the campaign can be summed up in the slogan "Is your drinking affecting their thinking?" and is targeted at parents to ensure they understand that the way they drink affects their children's drinking. Parents' leadership role is very important.
Diageo, in particular, has been very strong in financing and running campaigns along the lines of the "Don't see a great night wasted", which is a multi-million euro campaign run by the largest alcohol manufacturer in Ireland. The health promotion unit runs advertisements aimed at teenagers in particular, a development we warmly welcome. The advertisements are aimed at persuading teenagers to question their behaviour. There is a case for more advertisements of this kind. While we are not manufacturers, we are aware that the manufacturing sector is at an advanced stage in trying to put together better resourced national campaigns based on informing people about alcohol abuse and making them think about their behaviour.
We strongly support the idea of a national ID card and have called for its introduction for a long time. There are 10,700 pub licences in Ireland, which represents a licence for every 250 adults in the country. It is three times the licence density of the UK, which is fully deregulated. There are over 17,000 alcohol outlets in Ireland, which represents a phenomenal level of density. There has been particularly strong growth in the off-licence sector because there is a quantitative limit on the number of pub licences. There are clearly too many pubs in the country so there is certainly no case for more pub licences of any kind.
In respect of the three questions about off-licences, we are not a representative body for off-licences; we only represent publicans in Dublin. There is a national off-licence association which frequently makes the point that it represents approximately 400 stand-alone independent off-licences and does not represent convenience stores, garage forecourts and multiple retailers. These outlets are the major players. We do not object to a review of licensing hours for the off-licence sector.
We would be open to the concept of a forum between the vintners and the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association, and any other bodies which have appeared before the committee today. This issue is of considerable concern to us. We want a sustainable industry with moderate consumption of alcohol. We do not want to be the target of all alcohol abuse-related concerns in Ireland. We have a role to play and we have strong responsibilities in this regard, and the licensing regime is critical to this. We are often accused of defending the licensing regime on economic grounds. It should be remembered that the regime was introduced by the Government on social and alcohol control grounds and that both strategic task forces on alcohol established by the Department of Health and Children strongly recommended that the regime be maintained so we are very keen to see it continue. I have addressed most of the points I wished to cover.
Mr. Denis Coman
I support Mr. O'Keeffe's arguments. As a publican who works at the coalface of the alcohol industry, I am reassured to see that the participants in this meeting recognise that we are not the villains of the piece. There are other parties which are very much involved in the alcohol industry who probably do not play their part in the responsible serving of alcohol. It is reassuring that everyone here has taken this point on board.
The committee should examine the way in which alcohol is treated by the multiples, such as supermarkets. These outlets play an even larger role than that envisaged by the participants in today's meeting and their role should be studied.
Mr. Tony Gibney
One of the questions raised by the Chairman concerned the large imports of Chilean wine. Information and education are the way forward. The wine market has been the fastest growing sector in the alcohol industry in Ireland over the past 20 years. Unfortunately for publicans, it plays a very small role in social drinking. However, it constitutes a major part of alcohol sales in supermarkets, particularly in multiples. Given the abolition of the groceries order and the attitude of major multiples like Tesco, which often goes 20% below price to highlight its goods, more problems will arise in this area, which is already experiencing problems. In general, wine is more widely drunk by women than men and according to doctors, problems with wine drinking mainly arise in the home. That area has not yet been highlighted. Mr. O'Keeffe mentioned that off-licence sales are over 40% of the market and rising, which is a dramatic figure. People are becoming more aware of areas to which they must pay attention in the future.
In respect of pubs with no beer, I have visited one such pub in Armagh, which was very pleasant. Every town needs youth centres with facilities that are similar to pubs or nightclubs but which do not serve alcohol. People who do not drink alcohol are always very welcome on our premises.
I will encourage vintners to examine alcohol use in the context of wine consumption. I understand that a glass of wine contains 200 calories. Given that women drink more wine, perhaps vintners could encourage wine producers to produce more low-calorie wine. I will not give free publicity to any producers who are currently producing such wines but it is a clever idea.
Everyone here agrees that we all have a role to play, that we are all interested in solving the problem and that some alcohol strategy that takes the issue seriously is needed. Given that drugs are currently within the remit of the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, while alcohol is the responsibility of the Department of Health and Children and many other Departments are involved in the matter, some co-ordination is needed. These are the points on which we agree. It is now a matter of where we go from here.
Everyone agrees that there should be places other than pubs where people can go for recreation. I remember an incident that occurred as I was returning home from a walk to watch an important World Cup match involving Ireland. I doubt if there was any child in my town who did not have a television in the house, if not in his or her own room. Yet, three minutes before the kick off, as I was racing to get back in time, I saw six young men walking down the road with two plastic bags filled with alcohol. It was not the case that they did not have a place to go to or nothing else to do. I agree that more research into why people drink is needed.
According to Conace, which is the national drug abuse control council in Chile, if alcohol is included in the strategy, it will not be combined with drugs. Instead, both alcohol and drugs will be treated in separate chapters. I wonder whether this is the correct approach to take because if the two subjects were brought under the control of one policymaker, money would be funnelled into one place to be dispersed instead of advertisements being produced by the Department of Health and Children, the HSE and various dispersed groups.
The Clerk of the committee and I visited Sweden a few years ago to examine how drugs are dealt with in that country. We sat back and prepared to listen and learn, but everyone in the room focused on us and asked us to explain our drug problem. I could not understand why they picked on me but they regarded our alcohol problem as a drug problem. That is one of the reasons we have examined the gateway issue into illegal drugs.
I thank our guests for the considerable amount of time they have spent engaging with members in a constructive debate. We thank them for attending and hope that their visit has been of value to them. Today's discussions will go on the record. We have employed consultants to develop the concept of the report. The issues raised by our guests that fall outside the remit of the report are still important and relevant in the wider context. If there is no other business, we shall adjourn.
The joint committee adjourned at 7 p.m. sine die.