JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 24 Sep 2008

Proposed National Drugs Strategy 2000-2016: Discussion with Minister of State.

Chairman

Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an Aire Stáit, an Teachta John Curran, agus na oifigigh atá anseo leis, chuig an gcomhchoiste. Is iar-chomhalta don chomhchoiste seo é an Aire Stáit. Ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a dhéanamh leis as ucht a bheith ainmnithe mar Aire Stáit sa Roinn seo. I measc na dualgaisí speisialta atá aige ná déileáil le drugaí, fadhb mór atá againn.

I congratulate Deputy Curran on his appointment as Minister of State in the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, with special responsibility for drugs strategy and community affairs. I wish him well. As a former member of this committee, it is gratifying that he is with us. We received a briefing from the Department last week and we have a copy of his speech. He might take the opportunity to continue with his speech, and after we will give committee members an opportunity to ask questions. In conformity with what we have agreed in the past, the questions will be on a one-to-one basis rather than in groups.

Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Deputy John Curran)

Thank you, Chairman. It is strange walking in here today as I was a former member of this committee. I am on the other side of the fence now. My predecessor in this post and I have embarked on an extensive consultation process. Deliberation on the development of a new national strategy will begin shortly and I would like to hear suggestions from members today that can feed into the new national strategy. The meeting is timely because the next stage of deliberations will be starting soon.

I wish to thank the committee for the opportunity to discuss the development of a new national drugs strategy to cover the period 2009-2016. I welcome this opportunity to address the committee and I look forward to hearing the contributions of the different members. I will listen carefully to their views and I see this interaction as a valuable opportunity for members to feed into the process of developing the new strategy.

The existing national drugs strategy grew out of the efforts of Members of the Oireachtas across various parties in the mid to late 1990s, and I would like to see the continuation of this cross-party support for the new strategy, so that we can maximise the impact of all of our efforts to tackle the drugs problem in a comprehensive way.

Problem drug use is a global issue and must be seen in that context. It is a complex and difficult area to deal with and no country has yet dealt successfully with all aspects of the problem. Against this background we must redouble our efforts to deal with the illicit drugs problem in Ireland. I would like to outline briefly the process being followed in developing a new national drugs strategy and the stage we have reached in that process. A steering group, comprising representatives of the key statutory, community and voluntary interests involved in tackling problem drug use, was appointed at the end of 2007 to develop proposals and to make recommendations to me on a new strategy. There are two main phases to their work, namely, a consultation phase and a deliberative phase.

The consultation phase involved an initial examination of the progress and impact of the current strategy, consideration of the degree to which it continued to be relevant in a changing Ireland and examination of the operational effectiveness of the structures involved. It also involved examining developments in regard to drug policies at EU and international level to ensure relevant successful developments and approaches were considered in the Irish context.

The consultative elements involved a series of 15 public consultation meetings across the country. As I was appointed to this position in the middle of that process, I attended many of the later meetings personally. The consultative elements also involved the following: meetings with relevant Departments and agencies; a series of meetings with key sectoral groups and organisations working in the drugs area; meetings with appropriate focus groups, including problem drug users and young people at risk; submissions by e-mail and in writing; and a Seanad debate in June.

Consultants were appointed to assist the steering group with this phase and they are now finalising their report which is expected within the next two weeks. The report will provide the basis for the deliberative phase upon which the steering group is now embarking. The committee's contributions today will also inform this part of the process. It is envisaged that the work of the steering group will be finalised in January next and a new national strategy will be submitted by me to the Government shortly thereafter.

The current strategy is organised under five pillars — supply reduction, prevention, treatment, rehabilitation and research. It is thought likely that this approach which is largely in line with that of other EU countries will be retained. With respect to the supply reduction pillar, the volume of drugs seized, the number of seizures and the number of supply detections have significantly exceeded the targets set in the current strategy. It is clear that the Garda Síochána has put significant additional resources not only into local drugs task force areas but also across the rest of the country to address the drugs issue from both a national and local perspective. These additional resources are focused not only on detection work but also on enhanced levels of community policing.

While I congratulate both the Garda and the customs service of the Revenue Commissioners for their work in this regard, it is clear the availability of drugs has not decreased. Among the issues that need to be further addressed is the continued expansion of community policing forums within the context of the development of joint policing committees, because while there has been progress in regard to the establishment of joint policing committees, further community policing fora would significantly benefit some areas of greatest need. We must also address the fear, intimidation and violence in certain communities that arise from the drugs problem and consider the best approach to a perceived lack of consistency in the sanctioning of drug-related offences.

Improved prevention measures are crucial in any new strategy. Earlier this year the National Advisory Committee on Drugs, with the Health and Social Services Board in Northern Ireland, published the results of the 2006-07 prevalence survey. It found that while there had been an increase in last year drug use, last month use had stabilised. While the latter finding is welcome, the last year use figures give rise to concern about overall illegal drug use. The survey confirmed that illegal drug usage was predominantly a younger adult phenomenon, with those under 35 years accounting for the bulk of usage. It also underlined the emergence of cocaine as a threat, the response to which was developed and encapsulated in the joint National Advisory Committee on Drugs and the national drugs strategy team report to one of my predecessors in 2006 and which was subsequently published in 2007. In that regard, it is a key challenge for us to come up with a strategy that will be sufficiently flexible and adaptable to deal with any new drugs that will emerge in the coming years.

The current strategy addresses prevention under four key headings: early school leaving; drugs education in schools; drugs education and diversionary activities aimed at young people at risk in non-school settings, and awareness campaigns. Early school leaving continues to be a key issue within the broader social inclusion agenda, as set out in Towards 2016. The Department of Education and Science has in recent years developed a significant range of measures aimed at reducing early school leaving and this is showing positive results. Some drugs task force initiatives under the national drugs strategy have also helped in this regard.

In the school setting the Walk Tall and social personal health education, SPHE, programmes at primary and secondary level, respectively, are generally agreed to be conceptually sound and in line with the best evidence-based practice on prevention. However, concerns relating to aspects of their delivery have been expressed and this brings their overall effectiveness into question. The Department of Education and Science is finalising an evaluation in this area and the findings emerging therefrom will inform future development and implementation.

Drugs education in non-school settings is also extensive. However, because it is also somewhat unco-ordinated, it is difficult accurately to determine the impact made. Examples include drugs education provided through Youthreach, in community training colleges, under FÁS and in senior Traveller training centres. Under the young people's facilities and services fund, several youth organisations received funding to employ drugs education workers. The Health Service Executive also engages such workers.

While much has been achieved in the area of prevention, there are several key priorities for the coming years. A more concerted approach is required to prevention, particularly in addressing risk factors and developing the protective factors that can influence early experimentation with drugs. Emphasis will be placed on the improved delivery of the social, personal and health education, SPHE, curriculum and other education programmes through the implementation of the recommendations of the SPHE evaluation and the further development of quality standards in drugs education. There is a need to co-ordinate and regularly evaluate the activities and funding of youth interventions in out-of-school settings, both to optimise their impact and to establish that we are getting value for the money spent. There must be a more co-ordinated focus on orientating educational and youth services towards early interventions for people most at risk. Another priority is the development of a four-tier approach to service provision in regard to prevention and education. This would involve endeavouring to pitch the level of intervention at the correct level for those involved. In addition, we will focus on the development of appropriate national drugs awareness campaigns, supported as appropriate by dovetailing initiatives at local level.

With regard to treatment, there has been a quantum leap in the range and quality of services compared with what was in place in 2001 when implementation of the current strategy commenced. I acknowledge the dedication and commitment of those involved in delivering these services. The number on methadone treatment has increased substantially to approximately 8,600. Notwithstanding this expansion, the waiting times in a small number of locations must be addressed. There is also a need to make methadone more readily available on a wider geographic spread. While the number of general practitioners and pharmacies involved with the service has increased over the lifetime of the strategy, there remains a need for a further expansion of GP and treatment support services, particularly outside the Dublin area. In that regard, the Irish College of General Practitioners last week launched on-line training in dispensing methadone for GPs. I commend this initiative and hope it will facilitate the involvement of more GPs.

The future development of treatment services will be inextricably linked with the degree of success and the timeliness of the roll-out of primary care teams and social care networks by the Health Service Executive. More generally, the level of co-operation and complementarity between the statutory, voluntary and community sectors is crucial to successful drug treatment into the future.

Implementation of the recommendations of the report of the working group on drugs rehabilitation is likely to be a key element of the new national drugs strategy. The Health Service Executive will have the lead role in this regard. The executive is in the process of recruiting a senior rehabilitation co-ordinator who will chair the national drugs rehabilitation implementation committee which is being set up. The establishment of this committee, the membership of which will reflect the relevant stakeholders, was a key recommendation of the report. Its establishment represents an important step in developing the continuum of care approach recommended for clients, as well as the necessary inter-agency working.

Other areas that deserve renewed consideration in the context of a new strategy are: the further expansion of family support services; initiatives relating to the prevention and treatment of HIV and hepatitis B and C; a continued focus on treatment services in prisons and a continuum of care for people on release; and an increased focus on at-risk groups such as under 18s, the children of drug users, Travellers, members of new communities, homeless persons, sex workers and drug users with a mental illness.

The drugs problem in Ireland and worldwide is constantly evolving. We must endeavour to be flexible in our attitudes, structures and policies in order to adapt our approach to meet whatever challenges arise. The relevance of all aspects of the current national drugs strategy are subject to scrutiny, whether the structures for implementation, the roles of the various players or the more detailed actions outlined in the strategy.

The partnership approach of the statutory, voluntary and community sectors has been key in achieving the progress made so far. While a continuation of such a partnership approach is envisaged, we have an important opportunity to examine the structures through which we deliver that partnership and to consider whether there are different and more effective ways of achieving our goals.

Ireland has changed a lot since the current strategy was activated in 2001. Notwithstanding the economic difficulties we are now facing, the level of prosperity has increased, which has had many benefits for our people. However, prosperity has brought challenges, not least in the context of drugs. There is still a real need, one that should not be underestimated, to continue to focus on the heroin problem, particularly in the context of social disadvantage. At the same time, cocaine has emerged as a significant problem.

Another development has been the growth of polysubstance use, involving the combination of illicit and legal drugs, among them alcohol, during the lifetime of the strategy. The issue of alcohol use is something that people are increasingly exercised about and alcohol as a gateway to illicit drugs is an issue. The process of developing a new national drugs strategy affords the opportunity for debate on how synergies between alcohol and drugs policies can be improved and on whether a single substance misuse strategy is appropriate to cover all.

In this regard, I am cognisant of the all-party motion passed in the Seanad on 19 December last year and the ninth report of this committee, both of which recognised the problems of alcohol misuse and illegal drug use in society. The former acknowledged the need for a co-ordinated cross-departmental approach to these problems while the committee's report of July 2006 called for the inclusion of alcohol in a national substance misuse strategy. This issue is being examined by a working group, chaired by the Department of Health and Children, tasked with finalising a report by the end of this month. The recommendations contained therein will inform the development of a new national drugs strategy.

I can reassure the committee that I am determined to tackle the drugs problem during the coming years. In this regard, it is vital to get the new national drugs strategy right and to have relevant targets that are demanding but achievable, with the optimum structures in place to facilitate their implementation. I stress that this meeting represents an opportunity for members to input into the development of the next strategy. I am interested in hearing their opinions as elected representatives of the people.

Before I take comments or questions, members have seen the general timeline. The report on alcohol is due by the end of the month. I view today's meeting as being appropriate and timely in the process on which we are embarking.

Chairman

I thank the Minister of State for his comprehensive statement. I will give members an opportunity to raise questions.

Deputy Michael Ring

I compliment the Minister of State and wish him well in his appointment. Today is his first opportunity to address the committee, of which he used to be a member. His task is difficult.

There is no point in pretending that the last drugs strategy did not work because abuse of alcohol and drugs has increased. There are many concerns regarding the strategy and whether the funding being put in place is being put to the best use. Are people who are reaching out for help being targeted? I will provide a few examples. Regarding alcohol, I propose and hope to have seconded at this meeting the inclusion of alcohol in the strategy. It is our most prevalent drug. For too long, we have pretended that it is not a drug. Over the years, statistics have indicated that, where people come from homes in which alcohol was abused, some of those people later develop drug habits through their own alcohol abuse. I hope that alcohol will be included in the national drugs strategy and that the Minister of State will take my concerns on board. I will read the report, but it is an important matter.

There was always a forgiveness in this country for people who drank and abused alcohol. What people do not realise is the underlying effects on families and what it has done to their quality of life. There is always some acceptance and it is time we stopped the nonsense once and for all and said that alcohol is a drug. If it is used incorrectly it is a very bad thing. This must be spelled out loud and clear and I hope it is included in the strategy.

I am very concerned about the Health Service Executive, which has a major responsibility. It has stated it will not proceed with the two cocaine treatment centres referred to in the programme for Government. We have no places for people who need detox programmes. I have no answer for the Minister of State and perhaps we should examine this as a committee because in spite of all the funding and talk, the HSE is not capable of dealing with drugs in this country, never mind the health service. It has too many problems and responsibilities and the drugs issue will not be dealt with because the HSE will see much more important issues to be dealt with.

We should keep the budget for the strategy separate from the HSE. If we provide funding to deal with the drugs problem, the executive will use funding for something else. It has already begun to do so and has not dealt with the problems we have. The Department of Education and Science has scrapped its programme to keep people in education, a scandal in itself. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is supposed to be dealing with housing and accommodation for drug users but it has failed. The Departments of Health and Children, the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Education and Science have all failed in respect of the recent strategy. It is time we looked at a radical way of dealing with this problem.

In doing that, however, I am opposed to setting up any new agencies because we have enough quangos. The Department of Health and Children has too many as it is and the present Minister is the queen of quangos. We do not need any more but something needs to be done, such as a forum that will act as a body to deal with funding and which will be separate from the HSE.

Very few people turned up to the meetings. Of those who did, what kind were they? Were they people with vested interests, people who were affected by drugs or people who were there to see what the Minister of State was talking about? This is the greatest crisis facing this State and something needs to be done. There is no point in continuing with what has been done in recent years.

I hope my colleague, Deputy Catherine Byrne, who is the Fine Gael spokesperson on drugs, has the opportunity to speak today. If anyone knows anything about what is happening, she does. She has grave concerns about the recent strategy and I agree with her. We examined a number of areas and there are some very good groups working hard, trying to deal with the problem. Others are receiving funding and I do not know what they are at but it is not the job they are paid to do. They are not targeting those who need help. We must deal with this and it is the responsibility of the Minister of State to ensure we target those who need help. Those who are paid to do a job should do it and not engage in building up power houses among themselves.

Will the Minister of State answer my questions? I am concerned and I want alcohol included in the strategy. For too long we have pretended it is not a drug but it is the biggest drug we have in this country.

Deputy John Curran

In many cases the Deputy made statements rather than asked questions but there were one or two specific questions. One of the Deputy's latter points, with which I agree, was about monitoring and evaluating programmes. We must ensure programmes are effective and are delivering.

Deputy Ring referred to the HSE and detox. Is he suggesting that detox facilities should be bought in and provided outside the HSE system? The Deputy can clarify that in a moment.

He mentioned including alcohol as part of the joint strategy. That is fine up to a point but the drugs strategy is large. One element, for example, is supply reduction because drugs are illegal whereas alcohol is not. Has the Deputy any areas in mind?

Deputy Michael Ring

The abuse of alcohol by young people, in particular. I would like alcohol included as a drug because it would send the right message which needs to be sent. I am one of the few who has said repeatedly since I was elected that our attitude to drinking is that it is okay. People do not have as much sympathy for someone with cancer walking down the street as they do for someone falling around the street drunk before he goes home to beat up his children or his wife. That is not acceptable but that is our attitude to drink. Alcohol is a drug and it has done more damage in homes and in our society than any other drug. Drinking leads to harder drugs.

Deputy John Curran

It can be a gateway. The Deputy asked about public consultation meetings. A total of 15 meetings were held throughout the country, which attracted approximately 1,200 people or 80 people per meeting. The briefing note given to the Deputy outlined the structure of the meeting. Most of the people who attended had an active interest in this area. They were involved in the programmes from a community perspective or had a family member who was affected by the issue.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

I welcome the Minister of State and wish him well in his new brief, which is important and difficult. Earlier I met a youth service officer from my constituency. The drugs issue arose during our discussion and he stated 70% of schoolchildren have tried drugs, which is alarming, and a number have moved on to harder drugs. Therefore, 70 out of every 100 children aged between 12 and 14 have taken drugs, which is staggering. I assume the Minister of State and his officials are aware of that from their public briefings. It is necessary to go into schools to educate our children about drugs. The gentleman I met also referred to the number of young people indebted to drug pushers, which is also alarming. Much of his time is spent meeting parents, teachers and children to reach a solution to pay off the debt and get the children out of the grip of the drug pusher.

I agree with Deputy Ring regarding alcohol. Drugs and alcohol go hand in hand. I do not drink and, therefore, I cannot speak with first-hand experience. However, when I ask my own children about drink and drugs — and they are coy about discussing such issues — I get the vibe that drugs are part and parcel of the drinking scene at concerts, discos and so on. This issue needs to be addressed.

I am also concerned about middle and upper class people who take designer drugs. This is glossed over because they live in Dublin 4 or other affluent areas. That does not absolve them of their responsibilities to their children and our youth in general. There is little chance of children having suitable role models if parents are seen to be drinking freely and holding parties where drugs are used.

We should involve people with influence such as pop stars in any prevention or awareness strategy. Even though pop stars are the biggest culprits in terms of sex, drink, drugs and rock and roll, nevertheless, if we want to get the message to young people we need the pop stars that appear in concerts such as Oxegen. Those people need to pump out a message that using drugs is wrong. It is the case that the stars appearing in those shows are often newly released from a drug rehabilitation programme. One may not like their music but we all know their names. Amy Winehouse appeared at Punchestown and the poor girl had only been out of rehabilitation a couple of days and would be back in the next week. We must put some structure in place. Sports people are generally good role models. We need people other than civil servants or politicians to say that drugs and drink are bad. Is there a way to get the Bonos and the Geldofs of this world and other famous and loved stars to come up with a solution? This problem will not go away. It is getting worse.

Deputy John Curran

I acknowledge the merit of the comment about people of influence. The Deputy referred to a statistic from a particular school in which 70% of the pupils had used drugs. The Department does not have such figures and these are not the type of figures we have seen. I ask the Deputy to provide me with details.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

There are five schools in the area so I do not know.

Deputy John Curran

I do not mean to diminish the problem but the Department has statistical data on a number of issues and the like of 70% is not what we see.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

I will put the person in touch with the Minister of State.

Deputy John Curran

That is all I ask. Thank you.

Deputy John O’Mahony

I thank the Minister of State for his presentation. I will focus on two issues in order not to overlap with other speakers. I concur with much of what has been said. The Minister of State admits that there has not been a reduction in drugs supply. This is an island nation and in theory we should be able to better control supply from outside the State. However, this is not the case. Satellite detection of boats and vessels landing on our shores could help control the importation of drugs. The big find off the Cork coast occurred this time last year. That this find happened by chance is not good enough. Can the Minister of State guarantee that the use of satellite detection will be considered? I understand that Britain has satellite detection but we do not. Is there a possibility of EU funding to provide this resource? This issue is not solely an Irish concern because Ireland becomes a vehicle to supply the rest of Europe.

The Minister of State referred to the drugs education programme in schools. I have some experience in this area since I was a teacher. I was involved in the CPSE and SPHE classes. If I wanted to bring in experts to talk to a class, the school had to fund these talks or else I had to ask the students to pay €10 each. Education is the key to this. People should be provided for the schools. We also need to communicate with those who leave school early. The biggest market we can access, if we are to prevent drug use, is found in our schools. I have outlined the experience I had as a teacher. Those who are teaching have told me they would love to educate young people about these issues and avail of the experts in this area. However, they have to collect money to be in a position to do this. I did not collect money from students when I was teaching. I am aware of teachers who have chosen to pay for these services from their own resources. It is easy for young people to become cynical about these matters when they are being asked to go home and get €10 or €15. I would like the Minister of State to comment on these two issues.

Deputy John Curran

I agree with Deputy O'Mahony's comment about retention rates in schools. More young people are staying in school, rather than dropping out, which means we can focus on them as a target group. I accept the point the Deputy made about social, personal and health education. The issue he mentioned — the different formats of the programme — was highlighted on a number of occasions during the consultation process. As I said, I take the point that while the concept and content of the programme are satisfactory, it is not being delivered adequately. I have spoken to officials in the Department of Education and Science about the matter which I have referred to the Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe. I agree with Deputy O'Mahony's assertion that prevention and awareness are hugely important. They probably comprise the starting point.

I will make inquiries on foot of the Deputy's comments about the role of satellite detection in supply reduction. It is obvious that enforcement arrangements are in place at EU level. Member states are co-operating on intelligence co-ordination, etc. I accept that there is a need to track vessels as they come in and out of Ireland. Similarly, a coastal watch initiative was launched in north County Dublin last week. That initiative which encourages people living in coastal areas to be vigilant may be replicated in the west. If people have suspicions about coastal activity, they can dial a freefone number to inform the relevant authorities. I will make inquiries in response to the Deputy's specific point about satellite detection.

Deputy Cyprian Brady

I welcome the Minister of State. As he said, he is consulting the committee at an opportune time. I am familiar with how the previous drugs strategy was drawn up and implemented. This is a worthwhile exercise.

I agree with Deputy O'Mahony that we need to focus on supply reduction. I understand record poppy production levels were achieved in countries such as Afghanistan and Pakistan in 2006 and 2007. How can Ireland get involved in international efforts — outside the European Union — to deal with this problem? The supply of raw cocaine from South America has increased significantly in recent years. I suggest the strategy should make it clear that Ireland intends to pursue an initiative whereby it will participate in wider international operations. I am aware that maritime observation organisations are involved in such initiatives. We have to concentrate on what is happening in places outside Europe. It is hard to intercept drugs after they have arrived here from other countries.

It was suggested during the mid-term review of the last national drugs strategy that the family support initiative should be one of the pillars of any drugs strategy. I suggest community support is as important as family support. We are aware that drug addiction can have a devastating effect on the wider community, as well as on the family concerned. Some consideration needs to be given to the possibility of strengthening family and community support structures. Perhaps the Minister of State can examine whether that should be a separate pillar of the national strategy.

I wish to speak about rehabilitation and treatment. It has been suggested the methadone dispensing system be reviewed at some stage to ascertain whether it is totally effective. Some addicts in their 30s and 40s have been on methadone for many years. A question arises over the rates of return to drug use after long-term methadone treatment. Are there any statistics on this rate? Is it time to review the methadone programme?

In my area, I have heard anecdotal evidence of crack cocaine being used. Will there be an examination of the production of crack cocaine in Ireland? We know from the United States that whole communities have been devastated by this drug. It is much cheaper to produce and its effects are worse than the effects of other drugs.

I support the calls from other members on including alcohol misuse in the strategy. The local drugs task forces have found a direct correlation between the misuse of alcohol and becoming involved in drugs.

Deputy John Curran

I acknowledge the suggestion that as an island we need better co-operation not just with our European partners in this area.

There have been studies into the methadone treatment programmes. The National Advisory Committee on Drugs has tracked those treated in the programme. When drug related deaths are analysed, it can be checked who was in treatment and who was not. The programme is being examined in different ways. There is no doubt from the evidence that those in treatment have a better outlook and outcome. However, there has not been a particular study on progression routes in the methadone programme.

Deputy Cyprian Brady

My question also concerns access to drug-free treatment as opposed to medication-based treatment.

Deputy John Curran

Yes. During the consultation with the voluntary, community and statutory agencies, one issue raised by all parties was family support in treatment for drug abuse. The Deputy asked if family and community support would become another pillar of the strategy. It may not because it cuts across some of the existing pillars. However, family support must be far more central and pivotal to the new strategy than it was previously.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

My good friend, Deputy Michael Ring, claims I am an expert in this area but I do not think so. However, as someone who has lived and worked in a community that has been robbed and savagely raped by the scourge of drugs I have some experience. In the mid-1970s and 1980s Inchicore was devastated by drugs and it has left a huge scar in the community. Only recently have people realised what our community has gone through. As a voluntary community worker, the largest impact on me was the many young people who used to come to the youth club where I worked but who are not alive today. I have been to too many funerals of young people who have died because of drugs. It is the young people carrying drugs around for the suppliers who become addicts. Recently, on the stairs of a flat complex near my home I encountered a young girl in her 20s injecting drugs. I was reminded of the first time she had come to the youth club in which I was involved, and the beautiful young girl she had been. To look at her on the stairs that night was just a tearful reminder to me of someone who had not got a choice. Many people have choices, but some do not. Effectively, when this issue besets an area with enormous social problems, it becomes a burden on the lives of everyone in the wider community as well.

I have many questions. We may not get to some of them, but I want to reflect on one or two things. I have a great commitment to local communities and people who work with small groups, whether they be football teams, youth clubs, girl guides or scouts. For me, these are the people who have been left out of this chain. They have been lost in a vacuum which has arisen on foot of one of the committee's consultation meetings that was held in the south inner city. I do not have the full text, but part of a question asked by one of the people there stated that task forces had become unresponsive bureaucratic empires and that refreshing membership of local drugs task forces would ensure the involvement of local communities. That person, in effect, was echoing what I have been hearing and living with for the past 20 years. We all know that drug use is on the increase and people are dying needlessly.

My question to the Minister of State concerns the national and local drugs task forces. When they were set up in the 1970s and early 1980s they had a significant role to play. Part of that at the time was to enter communities and work with young people affected by drugs and work with the families of those young people. However, it only served to isolate people further and left out the wider community. I believe it has been the downfall of the drugs task forces that they have forgotten about the wider community. Every child is at risk, as far as I am concerned. We really need now to reassess the role of the local and national drugs task forces if we are serious about dealing with drug addiction.

I agree with what others have said. I do not agree that this meeting is just an exercise. It is very important in addressing one of the most significant issues facing not just the Government but the country. I concur with everything said by my colleague who, in his role as a teacher, spoke about education. My children went to their local school and it was only because parents such as me got involved that we had any type of drugs policy.

I want to emphasise for the Minister of State that there is an urgent need to examine the role of local drugs task forces for a variety of reasons. Many groups come to me needing small amounts of money to run little clubs or, perhaps, to paint a wall, as I did recently. They have been told by their local drugs task force that they do not fund that type of activity, while the people concerned give up three or four nights to open up local community facilities, often in the lashing rain, and provide a service.

Will the Minister of State say why the task forces are not working given that they have been on the ground for 20 years? They may still deal with a small section of the community but they need to address a much wider number of people. They need to be in the schools, the youth clubs and on the street corners at night time, and I can guarantee they are not.

The Minister of State has a real opportunity now to make a stand, review the role of the drugs task forces and remove the bureaucratic system we have in place. They have become the sole funders of many community groups. If one is not in the ring, I am sorry to say, one does not got fed. I am passionate about this because I grew up in an area that now bears many scars and many young families have gone. I knew one family in particular where five of the children were buried through drug addiction.

My request to the Minister of State is simple, that under the new drugs strategy he review the national and local drugs task forces. I am not taking away from the fact that they have done good work, but they have lost their direction and it must be rediscovered.

Deputy John Curran

The Deputy's point amounts more to a recommendation than a question, but I hear what she is saying, especially about the role of the task forces in looking at the wider community rather than at targeted groups. I will certainly do that. Going through some of the briefing notes will show that this is the point of the new national drugs strategy. We reviewed what worked and what did not. The idea with a new strategy is to make the appropriate changes. I would like to speak to the Deputy afterwards, because her area and mine are geographically very close and I can relate to many of the issues she raises.

The Deputy also mentioned that the task forces were the funders, but in my area there are pockets of people funding and we probably need better co-ordination between local authorities and Departments. We will look specifically at the role of the task forces in this issue.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

I congratulate the Minister of State whom I welcome in his new role. I acknowledge the work done under the previous strategy and hope we can take the best of it forward, while learning from the mistakes of the past. I represent the constituency of Carlow-Kilkenny and was absolutely shocked to read recently that Carlow had the highest incidence of heroin abuse outside Dublin. We are finding people scooting down the motorway to Carlow to deliver their lethal loads to people who will have broken minds, broken bodies and broken families. There has been a massive increase in Carlow and the support we are receiving from St. Dympna's Hospital methadone clinic and the statutory agencies is tremendous. While I do not have the same breadth of experience as Deputy Byrne, in the last ten years I have seen at first hand the effect on people when they get hooked on drugs.

The role of the social, physical and health education programme is important. We must be able to get experts into the schools in order that we can turn off our children from going down that road. I am a mother and was shocked when my daughter told me that when she went out dancing, somebody minded the drinks in case something was put into them. I could not believe it. She is 26 years old. To need somebody to mind the drinks in case a drug might be slipped into it is appalling for young and enthusiastic people.

The step-down services in Carlow are very good halfway houses. I also visited the community development projects with the former Minister of State, Deputy Pat Carey, when he came to Carlow. In these centres young people have a space for themselves. They paint the walls, play table tennis or make a cup of tea. They can also talk to somebody who will listen to them. They are often thrown out of their homes. The habits of some of these single mothers and young men often require four fixes a day and they often spend up to €700 per week in feeding their habit. We see them lying around Carlow town and elsewhere.

I wish the Minister of State well, but Ireland is an island nation with a huge coastline. I once lived in a coastal community and there was great support from the Garda and the lifeboat service in watching the coast, but it is impossible to watch every small cove and inlet.

Our fast moving society and RAPID programme areas, including Carlow, have a need for support services. I hope we receive the funding which will be targeted at those persons who have the ability to use it in the best interests of those who are suffering. I am not asking the Minister of State a question. I am just making a statement on how I feel about this issue.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Ar an gcéad dul síos, ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an Aire Stáit. The task before him is probably one of the most important any Minister could attempt to perform. I make my opening remarks as one who has been involved in community work, sport and education. This drugs strategy has failed under three key headings — education, rehabilitation and use. The Minister of State's predecessor launched his advertising campaign "The party's over" with major fanfare early this year. The party is not over, which the Minister of State knows.

The HSE, a discredited body, is now becoming the lead agency. Has the Minister of State confidence that the HSE can take the lead role on rehabilitation? In reply to a parliamentary question in July 2008 with regard to the current national drugs policy, the Minister of State said: "I understand the post of senior rehabilitation co-ordinator is to be advertised shortly". I welcome that, and I do not speak on a personal basis as I accept the bona fides of the Minister of State. We need interdepartmental, cross-departmental, cross-agency co-operation, which has been non-existent. The HSE does not agree with the Department with regard to detox beds. The Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs made one comment, the then Minister of State at the Department, Deputy Pat Carey, took a different angle and the HSE rebuffed them both, time and again. When will we see the rehabilitation pillar delivered in a cast iron fashion?

I then discovered that, the Minister of State, Deputy Curran, announced funding for the national drugs policy on 17 September, which was a rehash of previous funding. Are we serious about developing and delivering a programme? The Department of Education and Science is developing proposals, we are told, as is the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Why is this not already complete? We are at the end of the current drugs strategy but we have failed young people.

Deputies Kennedy and Byrne commented earlier, so I will give examples with which the Minister of State might be familiar. I have seen young people coming to school asking for money to pay drug dealers. I have been at funerals of young people who have committed suicide because they have not been able to pay drug dealers, and neither have their parents, who in some cases told their children: "Get lost. It is your own business." That is the reality we are dealing with. This is not about politics. We are dealing with human beings — with impressionable young people. Deputy Kennedy referred to role models. Forget them. We need to come down to the street corner.

To be fair, I have issues with the local drugs task forces. However, we now have a school programme where breakfast clubs and study groups funded by local drugs task forces are being cut back and withdrawn. What message does this send out? Our most vulnerable people are under pressure. We are keeping them in school, giving them a reason to be there and encouraging their parents yet we are suddenly withdrawing the funding for breakfast clubs, study groups and after-school programmes.

I have a specific question regarding funding for youth cafes as part of the national drugs strategy. Does the Minister of State envisage that we can marry this proposal with the issue regarding facilities being an alternative to drugs?

In planning the new drugs strategy, as Deputy Ring and others have said, we need to tackle the issue of alcohol. We have been complacent for too long. It is said that the Irish always drink. Unfortunately, we have gone berserk with alcohol, as the Minister of State knows, and it is not just young people who have gone berserk. We need to take a firm stance on the sale, provision and supply of alcohol. Education is the critical component of any strategy. We must communicate with young people via YouTube, Bebo, Facebook and MySpace. There is a need to think outside the box. We are all fuddy duddies with whom young people will not wish to associate.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

The Senator should speak for himself.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Both Deputy White and I would find it difficult to engage the interest of young people in their classrooms. They would have no respect for us. Instead, we must engage with them through the appropriate media. Otherwise, we may as well hoist the white flag in surrender. We must be clinical in our approach to what is an extremely serious issue.

The Minister of State made reference to the current economic downturn. Will he confirm that he will secure the necessary Government funding to tackle this issue? I wish him well in his role. As my colleagues, Deputies Byrne and O'Mahony and Senator Regan, have said, we in Fine Gael will support him in his endeavours but we will also hold him to account.

Deputy John Curran

We will not know for some weeks what is included in the budget. I absolutely recognise the importance of budgetary funding. However, it is worth bearing in mind that apart from the money allocated to my Department for specific projects in this area, there are other critically important elements of funding, including those administered by the Health Service Executive, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Department of Education and Science. Funding in this area is allocated and administered across several Departments.

Senator Buttimer is correct about the importance of role models and the difficulties encountered in getting our message across to children. I have enough difficulty in talking to my own children. Education and awareness efforts must be appropriately targeted. The Senator makes some good points in this regard. While our first approach might be to produce an information leaflet for distribution in classrooms, the reality is that young people are obtaining all their information via the Internet and other technologies. I attended a presentation in Galway yesterday at which one of the schools involved won an award for a project which dealt with drugs messaging on YouTube and other networking sites. We must challenge the traditional approach to these matters and move towards the communications tools used by young people. The Senator is right that we are the wrong people for the job in this regard.

I am interested in the concept of youth cafés, of which there are several in my area. I visited one in Galway yesterday. However, they all seem to offer something different and my concern is to ensure they are effective in the communities in which they are located. The roll-out of such facilities falls within the remit of the Office of the Minister for Children. However, that is not to wash my hands of the issue. The drugs strategy encompasses not only those issues that fall within my personal remit; it is a cross-departmental effort. We all know that young people who are involved in sport are far less likely to experiment with drugs. The new approach to which we have referred, including the provision of youth cafés and so on, represents an emerging trend. While we have invested substantially in the provision of sports facilities, I am not sure whether the provision of other social facilities for young people has kept pace. My son is 16 years old and there are few facilities for him to avail of other than sports facilities.

It is not a question of whether I have confidence in the Health Service Executive. The interviews for the post of senior rehabilitation co-ordinator have been completed. We are presented with a situation and must make it work. It is not a question of whether I share the confidence——

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Will the Health Service Executive deliver?

Deputy John Curran

It is our task to make that happen.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

It has not done so thus far. The rehabilitation and detoxification beds are not in place. The gaps in service remain.

Deputy John Curran

I acknowledge those shortcomings. During the consultation process, we were open in examining the gaps. I do not want to dwell on the issue of rehabilitation, but if we do not identify the gaps, the new strategy will be flawed. Specifically we went about identifying gaps. We make no apology for asking people what worked and what did not. The Senator referred to a number of measures that did not work in certain parts of the strategy. More people do not take drugs than those who do. There were successes, but we were open in identifying the gaps and weaknesses with a view to putting them right. It is important that the new strategy sets goals and targets that are challenging but achievable.

Deputy Seán Connick

I welcome the Minister of State and wish him well in his Department. His job will be difficult.

Given that the issue crosses a number of bodies — the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Education and Science, the Revenue Commissioners and the HSE — how does the system work? Does everyone report to a single individual? I spoke with a manager of a community drugs-based initiative in County Wexford who told me that 80% of those presenting in a town where the initiative has recently been undertaken are injecting heroin, an advanced stage in the drugs route. Most of the young people he encounters carry weapons, which is an issue for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform rather than the drugs task force which is engaging with young people who are now armed, mostly with knives, which are easy to come by.

I wish to refer to the targeting of funding which a number of speakers mentioned. Our community development programme, CDP, was a good one and was funded by the Minister of State's Department in 2006. Unfortunately, it only ran for nine months. With the €60,000 or so received for a pilot project, a men's group was set up. Its programme manager engaged with individuals on the ground. He was out and about on the streets, sat down with the men involved where they were drinking, met them in the alleyways where they were injecting, built a relationship and confidence with them and, eventually, got them to the centre to teach them the basics, in respect of which they had been outside the loop, namely, hygiene, health issues, cooking breakfast, filling in forms and so on. Targeting of funding is important to effect change in the case of such individuals. Unfortunately, funding for the programme ran out, but we suggested the pilot scheme be advanced. I hope the new strategy will considers such issues. While Deputy Byrne would have more experience than the rest of us in engaging with individuals, it is important to have key personnel who can effect change.

I welcome the young people's facilities and services fund which was extended to cover Wexford town where there have been several tragic cases. Previous speakers alluded to the importance of early intervention, which is key to this issue and relates to my point on individuals who can identify and engage with people at their level.

We are not reinventing the wheel. What is occurring in other countries? Have we considered their models? Earlier this year my niece worked on a fantastic project on an island in Sweden and returned with some great ideas. Are the Departments involved considering such programmes?

Deputy John Curran

I will start by answering the last question. Generally, we consider models used in other countries. We are slightly different in that we have always sought community responses. The purpose of the local drugs task forces is to engage with a particular problem in a local area and provide appropriate responses therein instead of nationally or centrally.

I do not have the details of the programme to which Deputy Connick referred, but such programmes and their merits are not assessed centrally in the Department on Mespil Road. Rather, it is the role of local or regional task forces to assess projects and make recommendations to address issues that might be particular to their areas.

Regarding structures, the task force is made up of representatives of the various agencies involved. At a national level, the national drugs strategy team, the interdepartmental group and key Departments are all represented. When this Department meets an interdepartmental group, all of the Departments with a role in this area are involved.

Deputy Seán Connick

On that point, what I am concerned about is that all these Departments are represented, attend the meeting and make a pitch but who picks up the ball and runs with it? I am worried that everyone attends a meeting, has a great meeting and walks out until the next one. What structure is in place to pick up the ball and continue?

Deputy John Curran

At the last level, the interdepartmental group, this Department chairs it but various lead Departments have a specific role. An example is the first interdepartmental group meeting I chaired, for which the issue of the senior rehabilitation co-ordinator was on the agenda. When we held the second meeting, the position had almost been filled. Interviews had taken place and they were waiting to appoint someone. The lead Department with responsibility for the issue takes it on.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney

I thank the Chairman for his forbearance in allowing me to speak. I have had an interest in this area for some time.

I thank the Minister of State for making the short trek to County Donegal and meeting Letterkenny Community Development Project and launching the diploma in drug and alcohol studies under the auspices of Letterkenny Institute of Technology and the VEC. He also came to White Oaks to see the wonderful work taking place. It is great that two Ministers of State made the effort to go there in one year. It indicates the level of work being done on alcohol and drug use in the north west. I wish the Minister of State well. He has had great success in drug finds which it is important to acknowledge.

Regarding the idea of supporting youth clubs, we were advised to draw on grandparents to run youth clubs because parents were often very busy. Grandparents may have more time on their hands for social interaction. I apologise if this was already suggested, I missed the start of the meeting.

I would like to see more use of drug dogs. I live along the coast, an area known for potential shipments. As regards the movement of drugs, their use in a disco or at a gathering of two or three, if there is someone with a dog that people may think is a drug dog, it has an implication. This was borne out by the significant drop in visits to prisons after the drug dogs were introduced. When arriving late at the airport in New Zealand, I stopped to ask about the dogs in action there. They were there to detect fruit and fresh food because the reputation of New Zealand for these products was so high that they could not have it undermined by people bringing in food that might have implications for the New Zealand product. If they think it is important enough for the fruit industry to have dogs checking what people are bringing into the country, the drug dog is important here.

A comment was made about the coast and I will make what could be a very silly suggestion, remanning lighthouses. Some of the biggest drug finds have been shipments around the coast. One does not have to go back too many years to find examples.

I am interested in how we can get the message across to children. There was a famous Tyrone victory on Sunday and there were speedy text messages about the cancellation of Christmas in Kerry. Nothing moves faster than text messages. I do not suggest the Minister of State needs to start sending silly texts but it is funny what a little humour can bring to an important and serious issue.

I recognise that this week the vintners have sought a freeze on excise duty in the budget. I will pass a slippery ball to the Minister of State and ask him what the views will be on this suggestion. I rush in to state I live in a Border area and that the release from the vintners included information that one in six households travelled North to buy cheaper alcohol. We need a tie-up interdepartmentally within our administration and on a North-South basis not only on pricing but also on rehabilitation services. Alcohol and alcohol abuse and drug and drug abuse know no borders; neither does rehabilitation. If it is easier to buy cheaper products across the Border 14 miles away than in the nearest large town centre in the Republic 37 miles away, it is easy for one to vote with one's feet. An all-Ireland approach to alcohol and our acknowledged abuse of it is necessary. The solution is not entirely based on education. Education was not top of the list in the reports completed by the committee during the past six years. Pricing of alcohol was closer to the top. This will be important.

I would have liked Deputy Byrne's opinion on whether alcohol should be brought under the national drugs strategy as recommended by the committee in a report a couple of years ago and with which I agree. The reason given for not including it in the most recent national drugs strategy was that people were under too much pressure from real drugs. However, alcohol is and has been the gateway to real drugs and I believe Deputy Byrne would agree with me as much as every member of the committee that where previously a need to keep it separate might have been seen, now we have an acknowledgement that it must be united. There are many models throughout the world for achieving this such as under various or parallel pillars. However, it must be under one lead Department.

I apologise for taking up the committee's time but I am extremely interested in this issue. I wish the Minister of State well in a difficult portfolio.

Deputy John Curran

I thank the Senator for her kind comments on my visit to County Donegal.

The issue of alcohol has been raised at many meetings and people have very different views on it. There is no doubt that those who present with a drugs problem started off with alcohol and that it was the gateway. The new strategy must recognise this. The details of how they are merged would have to be examined. I do not think the new strategy can stand alone without making reference to the impact of alcohol. Deputy Ring also began on this point and when I asked him where he saw it, he stated he was particularly exercised about younger people. We must consider the detail of how we incorporate alcohol into a strategy. Senator Keaveney mentioned pillars. It has come across loud and clear that education and prevention programmes must run in parallel with the strategy. I cannot state how they will be accommodated because we have not adopted a strategy. I acknowledge this. I was also interested in the comments made on drug dogs. When one considers the deterrent factor as much as the seizure factor, they are worth considering.

Chairman

Before I draw the meeting to a conclusion, tá ceist amháin agam. Inné, d'fhógair an Aire Stáit, an Teachta Curran, deontaisí de €2 mhilliún chun áiseanna do daoine óga a fhorbairt. Ar ndóigh, beidh béim faoi leith ar ceantracha éagsúla. I acknowledge the funding of €2 million announced yesterday by the Minister of State to provide facilities for young people. These are not only for young people with a drugs problem. If we concentrate only on those with a drugs problem, we will never solve the problem because other young people are coming up behind them. The initiative provides capital funding for the development of dedicated youth facilities in the regional task force areas. I was referring to one in particular but any one is a microcosm of the country.

Today, on radio, I was asked about current and capital funding. There is no point providing facilities if we cannot provide funding for day-to-day expenditure. There must be some joined-up thinking in this regard. I presume there is an answer but I would like to think the Minister of State's Department would provide funding and that there would be some level of continuity, especially in areas where youth are involved. In a number of areas in my county, for example, young people are doing excellent work and funding is being provided to them. While I accept we are in difficult times now, projects such as these should be the last to suffer a reduction in funding. Perhaps the Minister of State will refer to that issue and then I will make a suggestion regarding a conclusion.

Deputy John Curran

The Chairman hit the nail on the head with his comment that facilities are not necessarily for those with a drug problem but can act as a diversion for those who do not have such a problem to ensure they stay away from drugs. Generally speaking, and I do not want to speak about individual programmes because I do not have the information to hand, most capital programmes that come from the local drugs task forces have an operating plan outlining the purpose of the programmes, who will run them and so forth. Many of the projects given capital funding have their staffing costs funded through other programmes coming through the task forces. It would be unusual for a task force to recommend a capital programme without knowing who would run it or what was in it. For many projects, both capital and current funding would be provided by my Department through various schemes.

If the Deputy wishes, I can take a look at the particular——

Chairman

I just wanted to raise the issue.

Deputy John Curran

The Chairman is absolutely right. There is no point providing capital funding for a project without considering how it will operate.

Chairman

The logic of what is happening is that a current programme must be in place before one can get facilities for a new programme. Areas where such programmes do not exist are, therefore, at a disadvantage.

Deputy John Curran

Any new projects funded under the young people's facilities and services fund receive matching funding for current expenditure.

Deputy Michael Ring

What is the up-to-date position on compulsory drug testing in the workplace? This is particularly important in the context of people driving under the influence of drugs. If we are serious about dealing with the drug problem, we must look at this area. Sports people are being tested regularly for drugs but people can drive cars without being tested. There has been a major increase of approximately 130% in the number of people being prosecuted after accidents. When will there be compulsory drug testing, especially for those driving under the influence of drugs? Hundreds of people are being killed on the roads. While there has been much discussion about targeting drink driving, about which I am delighted, we must target those who drive while under the influence of drugs. It may be an even bigger killer than drink.

Deputy John Curran

I do not have the answer to the specific question now but will revert to the Deputy. A recommendation is due from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment shortly on drug testing in the workplace. I will endeavour to obtain an update on that for the Deputy.

Chairman

There has been a very high level of engagement on and strong representation from all sides during this meeting, which is an indication of the seriousness of the issue. I propose to send a full transcript of today's proceedings to the Department. We represent the Dáil and the Seanad as well as the population at large. I know the Minister of State will take on board the views expressed here and I hope they will be of some help to him and his Department in formulating a new drugs strategy. It is clear from what has been said that members are anxious that alcohol be included in the new strategy. I have some responsibility for and knowledge of this issue through my work at the Department of Health and Children. We will send the transcript to the Minister of State as quickly as possible. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I thank all the members who contributed and the Minister of State, Deputy Curran, for his initial presentation. He was quite frank and, knowing him, he will take the issue seriously. This meeting is only one stage of a process between now and January when it is hoped the new strategy will be adopted by Government.

Mar focal scoir, gabhaim míle buíochas le gach éinne a ghlac páirt sa díospoireacht fíor-thábhachtach seo ó thaobh drugaí de. Gabhaim buíochas faoi leith leis an Aire Stáit, a oifigigh agus comhaltaí an choiste. Buailfidh an coiste arís ar 8 Deireadh Fómhair nuair a phléfimid cúrsaí turasóireachta.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.05 p.m. until Thursday, 8 October 2008.