JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 25 Feb 2009

National Drugs Strategy: Discussion with Minister of State at Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs.

Chairman

Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an Teachta John Curran, Aire Stáit ag an Roinn Gnóthaí Pobail, Tuaithe agus Gaeltachta, a bhfuil cúramaí faoi leith aige ó thaobh drugaí de. Tá ráiteas an Aire Stáit os ár gcomhair amach agus tá mé cinnte go bhfuil sé léite ag gach uile dhuine. Ós rud é go bhfuil sé léite againn, b'fhéidir nach gá don Aire Stáit dul tríd an ráiteas go léir ach leagan gairid a thabhairt den méid atá le rá aige.

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy John Curran, and his officials to the joint committee. He has specific responsibility for drugs. As members have read his presentation, I leave it to him to decide whether he wishes to go through the presentation or simply give an overview and leave more time for members' questions.

Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Deputy John Curran)

If members are happy, I will take the presentation as read, as it has been circulated.

Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy John Curran

Following considerable consultation with the public and stakeholders we are now engaged in producing a new national drugs strategy. A steering group has made progress across the main pillars — prevention, supply reduction and research treatment, with which we are all familiar. We are following that general model. We are committed to having the steering group present a report to me at the end of March and bringing it to the Government in April. It is important that the work not be allowed to drift. We are trying to identify what worked in the original strategy and we hope to build on it.

I am particularly pleased to be here. This is probably my final opportunity to listen to the suggestions and views of members of this committee. When we next meet the strategy will have been completed. I would like to use this meeting to hear practical suggestions and proposals which could be included in the strategy.

Deputy Michael Ring

I welcome the Minister of State and his officials. I hope alcohol will be covered in the strategy. We cannot continue to pretend that the abuse of alcohol is not a problem. It has a dreadful effect on families and on the country as a whole. We cannot hide this problem any longer. Alcohol must be covered in the strategy and I hope it will be.

Rehabilitation services were lacking in the last strategy. Commitments were given for the provision of treatment centres but much of what was promised did not materialise. Detox beds were not provided. Somebody must be charged with overall responsibility for the strategy. The drugs strategy comes within the remit of the Departments of Health and Children, Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. People are passing the buck. We need a one-stop-shop to ensure this strategy is implemented and somebody must have overall responsibility for it.

As Fine Gael spokesman, I table questions to the Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and then they are referred to the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform or Health and Children. If the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs has the responsibility, it should act on it.

I see what is happening under the Leader programme where responsibility is spread over too many Departments and nobody has responsibility for anything. There are people drawing down funding but we do not know where it is going and how it is being spent as we cannot get the information.

The time has come for effective delivery of strategies. Will the Minister of State clarify when the strategy will be ready? We need to know when it will come into operation.

Deputy John Curran

I thank Deputy Ring for his contribution. He raised the issue of structures. I am very conscious that the structures evolved and things grew in the course of time. Drugs became an issue at a particular time, for example, heroin use in disadvantaged parts of Dublin.

We have moved on and we are trying to provide national coverage to deal with drug use. In that regard, the Deputy is correct in his assessment that the structures need to be re-examined These deliberations are ongoing in a particular section of the Department with a view to cutting out duplication and establishing clear lines of responsibility. Other committees, including the Committee of Public Accounts, have expressed concerns on the issues of accountability and tracking. Obviously the steering group must be cognisant of that.

Since my promotion to this position, one of the steps taken was the appointment of a national rehabilitation co-ordinator. It is awful to have to admit that we do not have a good handle on the rehabilitation facilities and services that are available. We know what the statutory agencies are providing but a great deal of good work is being done — in some cases under the radar — by the voluntary sector. One of the initial tasks of the rehabilitation co-ordinator is to identify the range of services and then instead of duplicating and repeating them, ensuring that the services are available for the individuals who need them.

In response to the Deputy's query on alcohol, most people who have a drug problem have a polydrug problem, in other words, a problem with more than one drug and in many instances, alcohol is one of these drugs. The HSE refers to addiction services rather than drug treatment services. The reality is that the new strategy must reflect that.

On the question of timing, in so far as it is possible, the steering group will present its strategy at the end of March and I will bring it to the Government in April. It is very difficult to be absolutely definitive but the steering group which is engaged in this process is working very hard to achieve that deadline.

Deputy Michael Ring

My final question relates to prevention. This week it was reported that 16 tonnes of cocaine was intercepted on its way into the country. Prevention is equally important. We must give the Garda and the Naval Service resources to prevent drugs coming into the country. Many people are being murdered in gangland killings due to drugs. Prevention is an area where much more needs to be done. We need a single Minister to take responsibility for the drugs strategy who will draw together rehabilitation, prevention and accountability. We must know what funding is being spent, where it is being spent, who and how it is being drawn down, whether we are getting value for money and that we are targeting the people most in need. I hope that will happen in the new strategy.

Deputy John Curran

I have nothing further to add, except to agree with Deputy Ring's comments on the outline of a structure.

Deputy Cyprian Brady

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Curran. It is a timely meeting in the context of the crossover of the new and the outgoing strategies.

I support Deputy Ring's comments on the inclusion of alcohol misuse in any strategy. I was very impressed with the reference to the single substance strategy. Any Deputy or Senator involved in local communities is aware of the consequences of the misuse of alcohol as much as the misuse of drugs. That is something that should be included in the strategy.

I wish to make my usual pitch for family and community support. The Minister attended the tenth mass for the Family Support Network. Its work is not just confined to Dublin but extends nationally and internationally. Families from England, Wales and other parts come under this network. I know the pillars are established, but I would like to see this organisation included in some way as that would give it recognition. As a member of the task force, I see that much of the work we do is in supporting families and communities directly. Again it is using the funding that is coming through the task forces.

I know there are issues in some areas with the waiting lists for treatment, but I think we must review the system of methadone treatment. There is anecdotal evidence of people going in to get their methadone and then coming out and selling it. The use of methadone in prisons needs to be considered. Mountjoy Prison is in my constituency and I am aware of the need to establish the effectiveness and outcomes of the methadone programme in that prison.

On the issue of funding, I understand the Minister of State has met the chairpersons of the task forces and that work on the restructuring and rationalisation of services is ongoing. However, there is a concern that some of the services that are providing help to people on the ground, whether in treatment, family support or community support, will be curtailed. Given the economic situation, if new priorities are to be targeted, it must be done in a strategic way. What we must not do is go back on a lot of the good work that is being done on the ground. I am sure that other statutory and voluntary agencies will be pointing that out. Many of the groups and organisations I deal with accept that there must be ongoing evaluation and assessment of the outcomes of their work. That must be built into any changes made in the structures.

I know that many of the counselling services are under significant pressure which has been increasing in recent months. That is obviously the result of the situation in which people find themselves. The services are being stretched to the limit. I would ask for support for counselling services, specifically for recovering addicts, where recidivism is on the increase. In some cases it has led to suicide. That is something we must confront. Some counselling services are targeting the more marginalised areas and their workload is increasing every day. That must be looked at, particularly in the context of the new strategy. I wish the Minister of State well. I know a lot of work is being done in this regard.

Deputy John Curran

Deputy Brady raised a number of issues and I will touch on some. He mentioned family support, specifically the Family Support Network. As a public representative and more recently as Minister of State with this responsibility, I have no doubt that families are key. Families become involved at the beginning when somebody faces addiction or becomes an addict. They are there when the family member is in denial or does not want treatment. At the other side, when a person enters services and treatment these are found to be far more effective if there is family support. The concept of families will be paramount and will have a significant role in the rehab strategy. There will be specific related measures in the new strategy.

As members know, the established Family Support Network is supported financially by my Department and that will continue. I have a personal involvement with it and I wish to see it centrally involved as we proceed. From a practical viewpoint, I meet it regularly because I am absolutely certain it has a considerable role. When people go into treatment without family support the treatment is significantly less effective.

The Deputy mentioned methadone. We will consider that in community and prison settings. He mentioned people who go onto the programme and I share his view. There are approximately 8,600 people on methadone, which brings a stability and removes the criminal element. However, some people appear to have been on the programme for a very long time. The new strategy must consider how to move people along. The practice can be that a person goes on a methadone programme and five years later it has become part of that person's life. There must be a specific group for whom we might offer a more aggressive type of methadone reduction programme. That does not always appear to be the case.

Obviously in the current environment, funding will continue to be a problem and we must look at the way we do our business. Through our Department, the national drugs strategy team and the task forces, available funding supports approximately 600 projects and programmes around the country, which is a substantial number. In more difficult economic times it is important that we look at the effectiveness of individual programmes. I am not talking about putting programmes out of business but we must ask whether they address specific emerging needs or needs that were there five or ten years ago. Should they be changed? Should they work more closely with other projects? Work needs to be done to ensure that available resources deliver effective responses.

Because of the number of programmes supported, funding to task forces over the five-year period from 2003-08 more or less doubled. This year was the first in which there was a small reduction in funding to the task forces. That caused problems for them because most would have expected to increase their programmes, especially regional ones in development. I acknowledge that but the reality is that in very difficult economic times we have maintained funding to task forces in 2009 at about the 2008 level. We must manage that situation. Many projects are funded and we must make sure they deliver the outputs we desire. Deputy Ring referred to this aspect.

Deputy Jack Wall

I thank the Minister of State for all the information he gave us prior to the meeting and for other material concerning other aspects of his brief. He has been most helpful in recent weeks.

I attended the public meeting held in Portlaoise. The Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, was also present. The Minister of State specifically addressed the matter of that meeting in his submission. People with specific interests attended which disappointed me somewhat. I do not undermine in any way the work and dedication of those concerned but no alternative was shown concerning either the material of the meeting or to give some hope to those who suffer from drug misuse.

We talk about education and prevention but the strategy must also include a major chapter on alternative paths aimed at children, teenagers and adults. Such alternatives range from sports, recreation and community involvement. If we confine a strategy on drugs solely to drugs we accept defeat. The strategy is a new one. We must open the gates and show there is an alternative to using drugs, a better way of life. There is more to living than being in a hovel shooting cocaine or heroin. Alternatives must be portrayed and I have said as much numerous times. The Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, agreed with me about this during Question Time in the Dáil.

At the meeting in Portlaoise everyone talked about the people who are suffering and better ways of treating them but nothing was said about providing anything beyond that. Why not include the views of prominent sports persons, musicians, community activists and others in the strategy? Such people could provide an overview and show there is an alternative and that all is not doom and gloom when considering alternatives to drugs.

This can be done. The Irish volunteer association spoke to this committee recently. At a time when the economy is as it is, that association provided figures to show that increasing numbers of people are becoming involved in voluntarism. There is hope. People want to be involved. Everybody is aware of the work people are doing in communities trying to provide help and assistance to those unfortunate enough to fall by the wayside because of drugs. There is a need to give the new strategy a different dimension by providing information on aspects of a better life.

Under-age drinking has been discussed and there is no doubt that it is a gateway to drug use. There is an education aspect to the new drugs strategy. An obvious follow-up would be an advertising programme linked to an educational programme in schools, underlining the programme and offering alternative perspectives. Anybody who watched the recent television programme "Teens in the Wild" saw what was possible in this regard. When the young participants joined the programme there did not seem to be much hope for them but when they came back to their own groups after four or five months, almost every boy felt better for it, was more community and family-minded and had a far more positive outlook on life. That is what must be done.

Deputy Ring spoke about drug barons and County Kildare is suffering in that respect. We must congratulate gardaí for their drug finds and the continuing work they do in very dangerous situations. However, they are driving drug dealers out of the city. My county is adjacent to Dublin and we are suffering because of that. Drug barons are now resident in County Kildare and are a cause of major concern. They stock up their greenfield sites and try to entice young people in smaller towns and villages into the use of drugs. I would like to see education, prevention and an alternative programme as the highlights of the new strategy. Everything else should flow from this.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I thank the Minister of State for his report. I am sorry I was slightly late. I have a few questions about the future of the national drugs strategy. As we are approaching the end of February, the report is eight weeks late. I am glad the Minister of State has stated the steering group will present it to him by the end of March.

There are no services for under 18s. For children taking drugs and drinking there is nothing to facilitate them. Even in local communities where there are plenty of groups working on the ground, some of the projects cannot survive because so little funding is being provided. We need to be determined to do something for young people and make a better life for them. I also watched the programme "Teens in the Wild". It made it clear that young people could make progress if we worked with them in the right way. We need to increase the work done with them, particularly in more vulnerable communities where young people under the age of 18 years have real difficulties with alcohol abuse and are taking a large amount of pills which have not been on the streets for a long time but are now available again, particularly in my community.

The new drugs strategy needs to address young people at that age. If we do not get them then and wait until they are in their 20s before trying to solving their problems, we will have a bigger issue. We need to look at the project and think outside the box. We need to consider projects, including adventure weekends. I have a list which I have raised with the Minister of State before. He knows exactly what I said. Such projects need to form part of the strategy. We cannot just deal with the affliction of drugs. Alcohol must be a major part of the programme when launched.

In his speech in October the Minister of State said services on the ground would not be affected. He said any savings would be made in the area of administration in his Department. I have news for him. Every local drugs task force, every community-based organisation and every local drugs team has been asked to cut its budget. I met some of them yesterday. Some of them have had their budgets cut by €30,000 to €40,000. How, in God's name, can anybody expect anything to be done on the ground if the Minister of State is saying he will not cut the moneys going to these services when I am meeting people who are showing me what they are being asked to cut from their budgets? These are the people who serve every community and parish. They are small groups. The drugs teams and the local drugs task forces are trying to make some headway with young people in communities. If they are being told to cut their budgets by €30,000, how can they be expected to deal with young people? If a budget is removed from one area, some of the supports available — counsellors or outreach workers — will need to go. That is a real issue for me and it needs to be addressed immediately.

Deputy Brady spoke about the methadone programme and people having to wait ten to 15 years. Let us all get real. Recently I met somebody who had been on the programme for 25 years — since methadone was first introduced. That person is still on the same amount. In order to get off it that person cannot go to any unit because he or she is seen as not being clean. There is nothing in the middle to help such persons begin to make some headway. They are stuck as if in a whirlpool. They are continually going around in a circle and nothing is happening to them. They are stuck in that vortex, whether the Minister of State likes it. They go to their local GP who signs a prescription and they go to get their methadone. There is nobody in between helping them to reduce the amount they take.

I recently learned that my local clinic had stopped providing needles for drug users. We are either serious about tackling the drugs problem or we are not. I know these are hard times and that everybody needs to take a cut but we all need to be responsible and remember there are very tough times ahead. However, these are the most vulnerable in society. The national drugs strategy must address the problems of young and old. We do not need to run television programmes to show what is happening in the community. We all know what is happening on our doorstep and it needs to be addressed.

I am concerned that when the next drugs strategy is launched, we will be back to the same old thing, with five pillars and lots of proposed actions but nothing happening on the ground. I am sick and tired of young people stopping me on the street who I know are out of their heads on drugs. It is not only heroin and methadone; they are also taking tablets that are being dished out to them. I recently met a young lad for whom a doctor had prescribed a drug that should not have been prescribed for him. This young lad is also taking other drugs. In God's name, something needs to be done abut this, although I know it is a matter for the Minister for Health and Children.

What does the Minister of State believe is the role of the local drugs task force and the national drugs task force? What will be their roles into the future?

In responding to Deputy Ring the Minister of State said alcohol misuse would be addressed in some ways in the new document due to be published. What does he mean by the words "some ways"?

Deputy Michael Kennedy

I do not want to repeat everything that has been said. I welcome the Minister of State and thank him for his report. Drugs and alcohol are a lethal combination, one we need to tackle collectively. Regardless of whether another Department is involved, it is more appropriate that it be dealt with under the umbrella of the Minister of State, Deputy Curran. We all see children and young people on the streets at weekends out of their minds. From the cans in their hands, it is obvious that they are drinking. There is no doubt they are taking drugs also.

I know that car accidents fall within the remit of the RSA and the Department of Transport. However, there is a link between fatal and serious car accidents and the consumption of drink and drugs. When the Minister of State is introducing his report, he should check out that serious issue. Drink and drugs are major factors in the number of car accidents involving young people. The Minister of State should try to take these issues under his umbrella.

Deputy John Curran

On Deputy Kennedy's point about drugs and driving, we have some figures that indicate drugs had been taken by people involved in fatal accidents. I take on board the Deputy's concerns about random drug testing and so forth and we will consider these points in the strategy.

I particularly agree with Deputy Wall on his point about offering alternatives and what we refer to as positive role models. At times we talk about the drugs problem but it is worth noting that the vast majority of young people do not take drugs, partly as a result of the positive actions taken in communities, including programmes which offer alternative lifestyles. I agree with the Deputy completely that we need to see more of these.

It would be wrong to suggest all young people are taking drugs. In the past ten years there have been significant improvements in sports facilities. Anyone here who played football in his younger days would have changed at the side of the field, whereas most clubs now have changing facilities. However, I agree we have not had the same rate of investment in alternatives for young people, including youth cafés, social outlets, the arts and activities in which they would engage. This has changed somewhat as a result of the young peoples' facilities services fund and the provision of a number of community centres but I agree we do not provide them at the same rate as improved sports facilities. We need to reflect on the fact that there are many positive role models for young people in sport and entertainment with whom we should try to engage because young people associate with and listen to them in a way they will not listen to us, no matter what way we try to say it. I take Deputy Wall's point in this regard.

Deputy Byrne referred to the role of the task forces. In the new strategy — depending on whether they are local or regional — their role will be to co-ordinate but there will be a change. We have a national drugs strategy team and a drugs strategy unit in the Department. There is no doubt that trying to co-ordinate the activities of all these groups is not effective. The working document in circulation suggests their amalgamation to form a new entity. I cannot tell the Deputy what that new entity will be because it is a work in progress but the idea is that the key players involved at national level would be brought together in one entity rather than left in the current fragmented structure. I reiterate that substantial work on the new strategy has been done following on from the deliberations and meetings held. However, I take the Deputy's point, as we had hoped to have the strategy by Christmas. I am informed that we will be bringing it to the Government in April. I am exerting as much pressure as possible. The steering group meets regularly and is working in a systematic and methodical manner but it is a strategy which is to run until 2016. Even if it takes a few extra weeks, it is still worth getting it right because it will run for an extended period.

On the question of funding, the Government funded task forces in 2008 and is funding them with exactly the same amount in 2009. Some projects run into difficulties, which is part of the fragmented approach because they are co-funded by other agencies. I agree with Deputy Byrne in her reference to the person who was on methadone for 25 years. We all know of such persons. We do not have an effective methadone reduction programme in place. When people go on methadone, the initial impact and change in lifestyle are fine but having them on methadone for that length of time is not desirable. The new strategy will look at how people can be moved on.

The Deputy also asked about needle exchange programmes. Some of the issues referred to by her are being work on. I have been meeting the HSE and others. It is worth noting that a lot of people take drugs but not everyone becomes an addict. Some dabble and experiment, undertake programmes of detoxification and rehabilitation and come out the other side drug free. It is important to have harm reduction programmes in order that if they can come off drugs, they will not be left with something else such as hepatitis C or HIV. It is important, therefore, to have a national needle exchange programme in place, a matter on which I am working with the HSE.

Deputy Mary Upton

I thank the Minister of State for his presentation. I will pick up on his point about funding. I ask for his views on the evaluation of the various projects funded under the drugs strategy programmes, the targets set and the outcomes and value of these projects. We all want more money for everything but it has to be used judiciously. While I would like to see unlimited amounts of money being made available, I am fully aware that this cannot and will not happen. However, what is needed and what can be done is an evaluation to ensure the money available is being spent well.

Everyone who has spoken has mentioned alcohol. I too want to raise the issue. It is a huge problem. It is very important, therefore, that we have a clear line on exactly which Department or Departments will address the issue in order that there is co-ordination and a connection with the use of illicit drugs.

I refer to prescription drugs, an issue which has not been raised. I am at a loss to know where one can access prescription drugs. If I go to the pharmacist to get an antibiotic, I have to have a prescription for it. I certainly will not be able to access it easily. How come there is a problem with the abuse of prescription drugs among drug users? We may be able to answer that question but need to address the reasons and ways to tackle the problem. I presume we cannot stop it but we can certainly attempt to curtail it.

The Minister of State commented on the important input made by the family of the drug user. In many cases, however, there is a generational factor to be considered in cases of drug abuse. Often a grandparent, a parent and children may be drug users. Unless there are significant and substantial interventions at family level, as well as other supports and mechanisms, it will not be sorted out.

I am also at a loss on what seems to be the liberal availability of drugs in prison. Clearly, this is unacceptable. It is perhaps outside the immediate remit of the Minister of State in terms of the drugs strategy but it is an issue that has to be raised and tackled with the governors of prisons. Otherwise we will have this unfailing revolving door through which a prisoner goes in and comes back out into the community. Those in prison on account of drug-related offences often come back out into the community no better off and sometimes worse. The availability of drugs in prison has to be tackled head on. I do not wish to make a Second Stage speech but the use of methadone must be reviewed.

In my constituency of Dublin South-Central the Minister of State will be aware of the ongoing feuds between the many criminal gangs driven by drugs. This problem needs intervention by a number of Departments and an input by the Garda Síochána. In many ways the Garda has been very good in tackling some of these issues but it is a huge problem and a real fear is generated in the communities affected. The level of violence is totally unacceptable to 99.99% of the community who are decent people. There is, however, a small handful of troublemakers who are violent and dangerous and getting away with it. This relates back to the availability of drugs.

I refer to the Merchant's Quay project in my constituency. In many ways, it is a very good one. However, I was in the area the other day and it is still shocking to see the number of obvious drug addicts and drug pushers hanging around. It is tragic to look at them and see the state they are in. It is also very difficult for the people who live in the area. They have to be aware of the problem all the time and are living in the middle of it. It is the case that one area is saturated with drugs and trying to meet the requirements of drug addicts. This is an issue the Minister of State will have to examine in seeking to spread that load more evenly. I applaud the GPs and pharmacists who commit to helping the programmes in place. It is not always easy for them to do it. We need to recognise their input, which has been very positive.

This is about co-operation and co-ordination across Departments. There is a major school drop-out factor in many of these disadvantaged areas and the recent cuts in education will not help. I have been dealing with teachers in schools which have been recently affected. I ask that this issue be considered in a broader way. Unfortunately, many of these communities start by being disadvantaged and lacking facilities. Pulling the plug on them in regard to education will create even greater difficulties. School drop-out children are very often the ones who end up in trouble.

We must deal with the issue of new drugs coming on stream. There are very clever pharmacists and pharmacologists who are paid a great deal and seem to be able to generate new, more complex drugs which are pharmacologically different, and they often have a captive audience of unfortunate victims. My plug is for research to continue in this area.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. Late last year the Minister of State's Department had an advertising campaign called "The party's over" and in many ways it is over. There is an issue of confidence among people in the field regarding the national drugs strategy. As the figures show, there is an increase in the use of more than one drug. It would be remiss of us if we did not prosecute the lack of joined-up thinking on the national drug strategy. Much good work has been done on it and Deputy Catherine Byrne made interesting comments, as did other speakers. However, the time for rhetoric and glossy magazines and publications is over. The rehabilitative pillar promulgated and lauded in the national drugs strategy is about to expire despite the fact it was only in November last, following the Minister of State's speech, that we got to do anything on it.

The Government has spent money badly in the elimination of drug abuse in our society. When will we wake up to the fact that we have an alcohol addiction problem and that the longer we talk about it, the longer we remain inactive? The Minister of State said the Government has not made a decision including alcohol in the new national drugs strategy. If he does nothing else after leaving here today, he should include alcohol in the national drugs strategy, stop procrastinating and let us as a society deal with the alcohol issues we have not faced up to before now. This problem is killing our communities and hurting across the board but we have not faced up to it.

I have a similar question to that asked by Deputy Catherine Byrne on the issue of the local drugs task forces. What does the Minister of State envisage when he spoke about the new role, format and remit of the local drugs task forces in the new national drugs strategy? If one considers the reports on the public meetings held, there were questions about delivery on the ground. I will not go over all the points made at previous meetings regarding the different work of the task forces. I speak to people every week about the reduction of funding to groups on the ground. While we all recognise we are in stringent financial circumstances, we are again attacking the vulnerable, the people who need our help the most. The Minister of State spoke about youth cafés. Why have we not rolled out a programme of youth cafés?

In January 2008, the Irish Examiner produced a magnificent supplement on the drugs issue. I made the point at a committee meeting that we should take that supplement and put it into the hands of every school child. The message that drugs kill is not out. We can talk, but we have failed. I blame the Government primarily because it is supposedly leading the charge.

With regard to funding for treatment delivery, I know the Minister of State has visited groups in Cork. I wrote to him in the context of treatment delivery for service users who cannot afford treatment. The drugs strategy rehabilitation report recommends service level agreements between the HSE and the voluntary agency treatment providers but what is the current position? Can the Minister of State explain when the Government will make a decision on the combined drugs and alcohol strategy?

Last year, of roughly 230 people admitted to Tabor Lodge in Cork, 191 declared that their primary drug of choice is alcohol. In any school, more and more young people are drinking at an earlier age, despite the reform of the Intoxicating Liquor Act. In Cork, there is increased use of heroin, despite the good work of local gardaí who are doing a great job. Can we resist duplicating the response used in Dublin, the methadone programme, to which Deputy Catherine Byrne referred? We need to give people a drug-free approach. The problem with the methadone maintenance programme is that very few progress to a drug-free lifestyle. When will we change that policy?

In the context of the treatment services, which are doing their best to try to contain and stabilise heroin use, the lack of resources is making it difficult for the service users and providers to achieve a substitute for heroin. What is the current postion and what is the thinking behind this? I apologise for going on like this. I know the Minister of State is aware of the issue. The voluntary agencies are trying to organise themselves so that they can have a coherent and uniform voice in dealing with the Department, the HSE and other agencies. Will we see support for this in the new national drugs programme?

I concur with Deputy Byrne that we do not have sufficient alternatives for young people. The Minister of State and I are involved in the GAA but we must recognise that not every young person plays sport. We are hanging ourselves on a branch in believing every young person plays sport, because they do not. I support the call of Deputies Wall and Byrne. Collectively, let us create an alternative.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

It requires all our help for the Minister of State to bring forward a good drugs strategy programme. It is beyond politics and individual constituencies. It is something that is endemic and we must get to grips with it once and for all.

I know that Carlow has a huge incidence of heroin addiction and the biggest population of heroin addicts in Leinster — I stand to be corrected if I am wrong. I compliment St. Dympna's on its wonderful work with recovering addicts. It has a special room for addicts to chill out, which is a model that could be used elsewhere.

The Minister of State referred to cocaine use among younger people but he did not give any statistics. Have we any figures on this? I am in support of the single substance mission strategy. There is no point just having one arm dealing with this; we need to involve the Department of Health and Children and the Minister of State with responsibility for children, as well as any other relevant agency, so that we can have a coherent strategy to ensure we are dealing with this in a watertight way.

As others have said, in the school setting the Walk Tall programme and the Social Personal and Health Education programme, at primary and second level, respectively, are a focus for professionals going into those classrooms to speak about the dangers of drug abuse, looking after oneself as a child, keeping fit, eating properly, getting enough sleep, etc. These are simple things but many families do not have somebody to tell them to put on a coat when they go out or to ensure they have had supper. Family life often breaks down. There can be a generational issue where there may be a mother who is a drug abuser and a child. Several taximen have told me there is open dealing in the back of taxis and hackneys. One taxi driver said it would be good if a garda could take over his taxi sometime and see what happens in the back seat.

Youth services are critical. Somebody dealing with youth services in Carlow said to me that not everybody has good hand to eye co-ordination, so we have to build skateboard parks and youth cafés and ensure that people who like activities that do not require such co-ordination can get involved in activities. He said if only he could go into a big factory and buy a few sofas and put them on a green space in Carlow, people could sit down and relax, off the street with somewhere to go. That was a very simplistic idea, but we know what he meant, namely, to enable young adults to have their own space where they do not feel the CCTV is watching them all the time. Most kids are decent and given the chance will turn out to be great adults.

In regard to sport, alcohol is glamorised through advertising, which should be banned. Around the world, if we turn on sports programmes showing European, Irish or English soccer, billboard rotational advertising flicks every few seconds around the sports field, often advertising alcohol and sending that subliminal message all the time that alcohol is cool. In the fashion world it is also cool to have a drink in one's hand. It is not cool to have a drink in one's hand. We need to look at advertising and that should be part of the strategy.

Chairman

To avoid repetition in the Minister of State's replies, I suggest we take two other speakers before he responds.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I welcome the progress that has been made in recent years, particularly the large and small seizures made by the Garda Síochána and Customs and Excise. While such seizures are spectacular, they are only an indication of the scale of the problem. While we can congratulate the Garda, it intercepts only about 10% of drugs which gives an indication of the scale of the problem.

I wish to make a number of points, one of which relates to the dangers of the recession and obviously public finances are tight. During the recession in the 1980s, heroin use exploded in this city. That was a time when there was a dependence not only on heroin but on prescription drugs. The appeal is not to the Minister of State who has a desire to get as much finance as possible for the national drugs strategy, but to the Cabinet as a whole not to cut but to increase the amount spent on tackling drug use in our society.

The Minister of State said there were 2,500 drug-related deaths in an eight-year period which is nearly one per day. That is the scale of the problem and I do not think people understand it. There are also those who cannot function because of drugs, those in the accident and emergency departments day in, day out because of complications with their use of drugs, families and young children in particular, grandparents who cannot enjoy their retirement because they are burdened with their grandchildren and the lack of support — although there has been a slight change — but financially it has not happened.

As the Minister of State said, 600 organisations or services are funded under the national drugs strategy. That is a welcome development. Many of these organisations and services are continuously reviewed and evaluated and because of that have proven to be effective. However, there is a concern, given the last round of cuts, that if there are further cuts in funding they will not be able to deliver the service. Is the Minister of State giving a commitment that there will be no further cuts in their budgets for 2009? I am not asking him for a crystal ball for next year. It is not only the funding from the Minister of State's Department that affects these services, obviously the HSE has its own agenda and on occasion it has cut drugs services without any evaluation as to how those cuts affect them. There is also the impact of the two thirds reduction in Garda overtime but I am not aware if there is a cut in overtime for the customs service, all of which will have an effect.

This morning I attended the drugs task force in Ballyfermot where there is much concern about the draft document produced in regard to institutional structures, the implication of which is that the NDST will be dissolved virtually within a number of months. It has been suggested that a number of people will be laid off, because they are non-Civil Service staff, once the NDST is transferred to the Department. This will have an effect on the morale of those people who have worked very effectively in delivering the programme. What is the procedure with this document and has it been signed off? I appreciate it is entitled "draft 1", but that usually means the commas have not been inserted. Is there still a role for the partnership? Everything is being subsumed into the Department which will have full control.

I referred to the scale of the problem but I am concerned also about other drugs. Even though the media often sensationalise drugs, we as a society do not understand the full scale of the problem. In his presentation, the Minister of State said that cocaine use has grown. That must be an understatement. The use of cocaine in this city has exploded. I am aware from reports around the country and meetings I have had that its use has exploded not only among older teenagers but among many adults. That is the scary part. While not as addictive as heroin, it is a major problem.

The scale of the problem of crack cocaine use is not talked about to any great extent. Last week I met a crack addict who has been clean, thankfully, for two months. She gave me an indication of the scale of the problem. The same can be true of crystal meth, even though it is not presenting on a huge scale. I met the Garda inspector this morning who confirmed what I had heard that there are crystal meth factories in the locality of Dublin 12 and Clondalkin which the Garda is trying to find. The problems with crystal meth is that when the addicts present in hospitals, the hospitals are not aware of it and it causes chaos for the health services. I hope the drugs strategy will begin to address these issues, some of which have been around for a long time.

I wish to raise two other points. We welcome the fact that there are regional drugs task forces but there are cities in Ireland that should have local drugs task forces such as Waterford and Limerick. Those areas should not be part of a regional drugs task force system.

The Minister of State mentioned the initiatives around the prevention and treatment of blood-borne viruses and emphasised the continued focus on treatment in prisons. A previous Minister, former Deputy Michael McDowell, was adamant there would be no needle exchange in the prison system. Needle exchanges allow harm reduction and should be made available to the prison population. Prison officers have discussed the idea and, last month, the UN special rapporteur on torture said that the absence of needle exchanges in places of detention amounted to cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment. I suggest the idea be reconsidered in the context of the new national drugs strategy.

Deputy John O’Mahony

I thank the Minister of State for attending and I wish him well in putting in place an effective drugs strategy. It will be difficult to get support from within his own Government to roll out such a strategy.

The core issues are prevention and cure and both rely on funding. The Minister said funding for 2009 was not very different from funding for 2008 but the evidence on the ground and the cutbacks referred to by Deputy Catherine Byrne do not bear out his claim. We are discussing funding for task forces but a few weeks ago the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism told us that sports capital grants had been cancelled for 2009 and youth services were being cut back. How does the Minister of State intend to roll out an effective drugs strategy in that context? He mentioned facilities. I agree with the people who said that more than sports facilities are involved here. However, there are facilities in many towns and villages around the country which are not available to people, particularly in schools. The children of the town, if they want to be involved in sport have to go outside the town to get the facilities they need. In some case we need investment in people, for instance a caretaker in a school. The school principal should not have to feel that he or she has to stay on to open the school and mind it and so on. The trick, in the current economic climate, is to get more for less.

One thing to emerge from the public meetings was the change in patterns of drug use and the fact that it now spreads over a wider geographical area and across more social strata. How does the Minister of State intend to deal with that? In my constituency of Mayo, gardaí are trained in drugs issues but there is no dedicated drugs squad. Gardaí tell me they could do much more if they were dedicated and not simply assigned to drugs issues as they arose.

Deputy John Curran

I take members' contributions on the new strategy very seriously. Deputy Wall mentioned the public consultation meetings. People who attended those meetings came from a particular sector but the consultation process went beyond the public. We dealt with all the stakeholders and various Departments. The contributions of public representatives, the information and examples they have provided, are all very useful because they reflect what is happening.

Deputy Upton asked about the number of projects and the question of their evaluation. As part of the mainstreaming process, some 400 projects were evaluated and were seen to work well. I am not satisfied as we need to maximise output. We can follow the money trail and see that they deliver on their objectives but the question of whether they could do better was not asked. The structures are important because if we cannot make projects change to meet new trends and new demands in a timely fashion something is wrong.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh asked if the national drugs strategy was a finished document. It is far from finished and much remains to be done but I am determined to bring a more cohesive structure together. Public representatives hold me accountable. If a problem arises they come to me. I go to the drugs strategy unit which contacts the NDST and we hold an IDG meeting to co-ordinate the approach. The system is all over the place. We need a more coherent and unified approach to address the issues raised by Deputy Upton.

We spend a great deal of money. Apart from the money coming to my area for task forces, the total spend in 2007 was approximately €230 million. The system which has evolved is too fragmented. Deputy Ó Snodaigh suggested the Department would take over but that is not what I envisage.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I said that was the perception of people at the meeting I attended.

Deputy John Curran

I do not view it in that way. I am looking to establish a new entity, not a new Department. A new entity is needed to deal with the problem because it is unique and not proper to a subset of a Department. For the drugs strategy to work effectively we need partners from the areas of health, the HSE, education and from the community and voluntary sector, which will certainly be part of the new entity. The right way to proceed is with a much more unified approach, rather than by a takeover by the Department. It will involve bringing together the key players into one entity to enable me to make sure the projects and programmes we fund deliver the required services and that I can measure the outcomes. We are at arm's length.

Senator Buttimer has left the meeting but he asked about voluntary organisations, a number of which I have met around the country. Many who are engaged on the voluntary side in rehabilitation and detox treatments were originally only in alcohol treatment but have now adapted to drugs. Some are outside the drugs strategy but the appointment of a national rehabilitation co-ordinator is crucial. We need to identify those who provide services and ensure there is good clinical governance. We need to ensure they are all accredited and have the required standards. We must also ensure the resources are allocated in an even manner because, at the moment, some projects are very well funded while others are not. A new entity will bring greater co-ordination.

Deputy Upton also asked about prescription drugs. I was in Galway last Friday for the launch of a survey carried out in the west by the regional task force and prescription drugs were signalled as an issue. The report, a copy of which I will provide for the Deputy, probed the reasons for this being the case and concluded that much of it was because of over-prescription and the fact that people have been on prescriptions for too long. Others could be bought illegally or on the Internet. There is a combination of ways. However, it is flagged as an issue. This is rightly a matter for the Department of Health and Children but as part of the drugs strategy, it requires further probing.

Some members mentioned emerging trends and new drugs such as crack cocaine. Yesterday I attended a conference on crack cocaine use held by the north inner city drugs task force in Croke Park. The task force conducted research last year on this problem; as a result, we know the prevalence rates. Research is being done before the use of this drug becomes a serious issue in order that requirements for treatment and services can be identified in good time.

All members spoke about alcohol. I take it that the committee is of the opinion that a single strategy for drugs and alcohol is preferred. Whether there is a single strategy will be the subject of a Government decision. While I cannot say when that decision will be taken, I can say when the strategy will be presented to the Government and that decisions will be made soon afterwards. Irrespective of the actual measures taken, the structures outlined in the strategy clearly recognise alcohol abuse as an issue. All our measures deal with alcohol as well as drugs. The HSE now refers to addiction services, irrespective of the substance used.

Deputy O'Mahony referred to funding cuts. In 2007 approximately €230 million was spent by my Department. Local groups experience problems because they receive funding from multiple streams and a cut in one affects their overall funding. That is why I want to see a more co-ordinated entity. We have a national drugs strategy team, a drugs strategy unit, an interdepartmental group on drugs, regional task forces, local task forces and projects. It is very fragmented. If we want clearer identification of budgets, we must bring these strands together. I would always fight for more money. The funding made available to the task forces this year was more than we were allocated. We had to source money from other projects within the Department because we recognised the importance of this issue.

In the coming years it will be crucial to ensure better results for the money spent. That is achievable if we think differently. I have seen counsellors in small projects doing jobs other than counselling. We need to reorganise in order that counsellors do nothing apart from counselling, perhaps on an outreach basis for more than one project. We must reorganise in order that we get better value for money.

Deputy Mary Upton

I have some queries regarding the qualifications and status of many counsellors. The people of whom the Minister of State speaks may be highly qualified and very efficient. However, the word "counsellor" can mean almost anything one wants it to mean. I am sorry to interrupt but this is an important point.

Deputy John Curran

I agree wholeheartedly with the Deputy. I have seen counsellors of all grades and there must be standardisation. The term is used too loosely. The new strategy will look at this issue.

I will look at the comments made by members in finalising the strategy. I am pushing hard to have it with the Government during April. If I get it wrong, I apologise in advance to Deputy Byrne, but we are working and are focused.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I hope the Minister of State will keep on pushing.

Chairman

It remains for me to thank the Minister of State for being with us and the exchange of views. We were wise to use our time to ask questions and make contributions, particularly at this time. The Minister of State has said the steering group is working on the strategy and engaged with stakeholders. Members of the committee are stakeholders. We represent the views of people in our constituencies. We hope the strategy, when approved by the Government in April, will reflect the consensus at the meeting on the question of alcohol. Drugs and alcohol are inextricably linked. I hope the Minister of State will consider the views of the committee on this matter and that they will be reflected in the new strategy. I wish the Minister of State and his officials well in their endeavours to have the strategy before the Government in April. However, it would be more important to have it right in May than wrong in April.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.55 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 11 March 2009.