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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 4 Nov 2009

Funding of Irish Sport: Discussion with Federation of Irish Sports.

I welcome Ms Sarah O'Connor, chief executive; Ms Sinead O'Connor, Ardstiúrthóir, Cumann Camógaíochta na nGael; Mr. Páraic Duffy, director general, Gaelic Athletic Association; Mr. Philip Browne, chief executive officer, Irish Rugby Football Union; Mr. John Delaney, chief executive officer, Football Association of Ireland; Mr. Pat Hickey, president, Olympic Council of Ireland; Mr. Matt English, chief executive officer, Special Olympics Ireland; and Mr. Liam Harbison, chief executive officer, Paralympic Council of Ireland. We have met you all individually in the past at various fora. We are delighted that you could all be present today on a very important mission.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of a long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or any official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We have a wonderful history of sport in Ireland in all disciplines and it is essential that we nurture and support this tradition. I thank the representatives of the various sporting organisations who are appearing before the committee for the fantastic contribution they and their organisations have made in communities throughout the country. At national level, sport can lift the mood of the nation and help our well being. Given that all the codes are represented here today, the next team up for the challenge will be our soccer team. I wish Mr. John Delaney and all in his association the best of luck in the contest with France. We will cheer you on.

Many of us have a huge interest in sport. We are conscious of the contribution sport has made in our communities and the work being done at local level. A point made in your submission is that sport and physical activity make a major contribution to public health. When looking at the allocations we are aware of the pressures on funding in the areas of social welfare, health and education. I emphasise that sport and physical activity prevent disease and ill health and is important for the well-being of our young population in particular. We have seen many fantastic things happen in schools, such as the walk to school initiative, at local level. At national and local level, members will be anxious to make their own comments. We realise the importance of sport. We live in tough times and choices have to be made but we are keen to listen to the Federation of Irish Sports and hear its combined message. We will work with the federation to realise its objectives.

I understand Ms Sarah O'Connor will make the opening remarks. I will then ask each member to make a five-minute contribution following which members will put their questions.

Ms Sarah O’Connor

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the invitation to discuss in some more detail our recently published submission on the future funding of Irish sport entitled "Why Irish Sport Matters". I understand this is the first time such a multi-sport delegation has appeared before this committee. That is an indication of just how important all of Irish sport feels about the subject before us. I propose to provide a brief introduction and background to our submission before each of my colleagues will take two or three minutes to speak in some detail about particular ways in which sport contributes to Irish life.

Sport is 100% united behind this submission which is not just about the 60 plus national sporting organisations or the 33 local sports partnerships but also about the 1 million plus Irish people who actively participate in sport, the hundreds and thousands of children for whom sport is so important and the 285,000 Irish people who volunteer every week in Ireland to make sport happen.

The sporting community fully recognises the difficult times we face as a country. We certainly recognise the many different demands for Government funding, all of which are valid. However, we emphasise that sport has already suffered a significant reduction in Government investment with the suspension of the sports capital programme, the postponement of a new round of the local authority swimming pool programme and an 11% reduction in Irish Sports Council funding.

Our message today is clear. Sport cannot afford any further reduction in Government investment without serious damage being done to the accessibility and delivery of sport right across the country. We are not looking for more, we merely wish to protect the funding that is currently in place and reinstate at least part of the capital spending programme. This submission is a result of the realisation following the McCarthy report that sport is something that, perhaps, we as a country are in danger of taking for granted, that sport does not need nurturing, protecting or developing; nothing could be further from the truth.

We sought in our submission to outline the many reasons sport matters to Ireland, with details given of the health, economic and social dividends sport returns to us as a nation, the positive image sport portrays of our country at home and abroad, not to mention the feel good factor that sport delivers, particularly during this difficult year when, more often than not, it has been sport above anything else, that has delivered the good news stories for Ireland. Our submission provides evidence of how sport has delivered under each of these separate headings to Ireland in recent times. Our submission makes four very straightforward requests, namely, that there are no further reductions in funding to the Irish Sports Council; that sports remains as a Department; the reinstatement of the sports capital programme, even in a limited fashion; and the development of the National Sports Campus.

It is vital that sport continues to have representation at the Cabinet table. The success, since the appointment of the first Minister for Sport in 1999, in terms of increased access to sport, improved consistency of success in the international stage, not to mention the attraction of major sporting events to Ireland with the resulting economic and tourism benefits, is proof of this reality. It should be recognised that we are not talking about a huge amount of money. Total funding to the Irish Sports Council this year was under €52 million. The sum of €52 million represents less than 20% of the proceeds of the national lottery that were available for distribution in 2008. Our submission points out the large network of programmes to which this funding is so vital including, for example, the implementation of child protection in sport around the country, coach education in training structures, and sports development programmes.

We hope that all members, as public representatives, will take up the Irish Sport Matters campaign message on our behalf not only in the next few weeks but over the coming years. The Deputies among the members should have received a factsheet detailing some of the programmes facilitated by Government funding in their constituencies. These programmes are representative of sports development work taking place throughout the country. These are the programmes that will disappear if funding is further reduced.

Irish sport has made great strides during the past ten years. Sport does and can continue to deliver for Ireland on multiple fronts but Government financial support is required. Let us not turn back the clock. The future of Irish sport is now an issue. We hope we can count on the members' support to ensure that sport survives and is a tool in the recovery of our nation as opposed to a victim of it. I will hand over to my colleagues.

Mr. Páraic Duffy

One of the dangers in putting forward our respective positions is that there could be a degree of repetition. Therefore, I will not repeat the points that have been made.

The Chairman in his introductory comments set the scene very well. I do not believe anybody around the table would argue about the value of the important contribution sport makes to the lives of Irish people. I will give members a GAA perspective on the value of sport and every organisation would tell its own story in that respect. We are very much a community-based organisation. We do not have the international profile of some of the other sports. Our spokespeople do not compete internationally in the same way as those in other sports. Our strength is in our presence in communities throughout Ireland.

As Ms O'Connor said, what we are seeking here today is not an increased share of funding for sport at community, national or international level but to protect what has happened positively in terms of sport during the past number of years. It is important to acknowledge that during the past ten to 15 years, there has been a much higher level of investment in sport. I believe everyone would agree that this has been to the benefit of people generally throughout the country. The GAA has benefited enormously from the sports capital programme. The Government has been quite generous in funding facilities throughout the country, community-based facilities developed for the benefit of the whole community.

Deputy McGinley will know that I attended a function in a local club in Ballybofey where a new €1.3 million social centre was developed with Government support for the use of all the people in the area around Ballybofey and Stranorlar. That type of funding has now disappeared. For example, the GAA would have drawn down between €20 million and €30 million in sports capital funding last year, supplemented by similar or even greater amounts from funds raised by volunteers within the clubs throughout Ireland. Government funding on its own never achieved the building of any facilities, but Government funding along with the funds raised by volunteers has achieved that. It will be a terrible blow to communities throughout Ireland if that disinvestment of funding from sport is to continue.

As Ms O'Connor has said, we are very aware of the serious financial situation facing the country. We have a number of priorities. One I want to briefly mention is the Irish Sports Council funding. It was reduced in 2009. Each of the organisations represented here is drawing down less funding this year than they did in 2008. That is the funding on which we depend to put our coaches into schools. From a GAA point of view, 75,000 primary schoolchildren in Dublin benefit from coaches going into schools in spring and autumn every year to deliver a coaching programme. We have people working in disadvantaged areas in Dublin, places like Abbotstown and Tyrellstown, who are trying to provide a new GAA presence. Their presence there is dependent on Irish Sports Council funding.

We invest €20 million of our own funding every year in development and coaching programmes throughout the country. If the funding we get from the Irish Sports Council is reduced, it will mean a reduction in the number of coaches we can provide and the number of communities in which we can work. That would be a terrible loss to Irish life in general.

We are here today, as are all our partners in sport, to say that, as the Chairman pointed out in his opening remarks, if funding is withdrawn from sport, it will represent a disimprovement in the lives of ordinary people. Sport has a positive impact and we do not want to lose that.

I want to mention two areas in particular where funding from the Irish Sports Council has been of huge benefit. One has been in Dublin where the increased participation in hurling and in games has been enormous during the past number of years. The other area is the development of hurling. More children are playing hurling in Ireland than at any time in the history of this State. That has been largely due to investment from the Irish Sports Council. If such investment is reduced, even with the very best of resources we can contribute, the playing of our games in communities will diminish. That would be a serious loss not only to our games but to the country in general.

I thank Mr. Duffy for putting his message so succinctly. I invite Ms O'Connor to make her contribution.

Ms Sinead O’Connor

I am ardstiúrthóir of Cumann Camógaíochta na nGael, the Camogie Association. I will give some information on our association to put it in context. We are part of the greater Gaelic games family but an independent organisation, which relies upon the facilities provided for us by the GAA.

We are a sporting organisation catering for more than 100,000 members in approximately 550 clubs. In addition to that, approximately 800 primary level schools, more than 200 second level schools and almost all the third level institutions in some shape or form throughout the country participate in competitions.

We have in excess of approximately 10,000 camogie games played each year. As a female sporting organisation, we have some of the most recognisable female sport stars within our midst, the likes of Mary O'Connor of Cork, who has 12 All-Ireland medals to her name as a dual player, Briege Corkery and the Downey sisters to mention a few.

As a sporting organisation, we are extremely reliant on the Irish Sports Council funding. I would specifically like to speak about the Women in Sport funding, a new stream of funding that has been brought on board by the Irish Sports Council in the past four years.

As members will be aware, there is a gender gap in sport and considerable research has been carried out in this area. Approximately 50% of men but only 30% of women play sport on a regular basis. Therefore, some 70% of women do not play sport on a regular basis. The Chairman mentioned the benefits of sport in terms of health and other benefits, including increased self-confidence and social skills. We are anxious to ensure that the females of this country will have the opportunity to participate in sport as strongly as possible. While many children will play sport in school, ESRI research has found that while girls will play sport in primary school, only a small fraction of those will go on to continue playing sport at second level.

The €10 million that has been invested by the Irish Sports Council in Women in Sport programmes in recent years has targeted the 70% of women who currently do not participate in sport. This money has been invested through national governing body programmes and programmes run by local sports partnerships. Real benefits are derived from this funding and have led to a direct increase in the number of women participating in physical activity or sport.

The Camogie Association has also derived significant and real benefits from this funding. We have two target groups of women at, what we would term, crisis points in terms of drop out levels in sport, the first being teenage girls, among whom, almost throughout the world, there is a high drop out level in sport. We have run fun competitions on a non-competitive basis and blitz events for girls playing sport in second level schools. It creates an environment where girls are not threatened by females who may be good at sport and it bases their participation on just having fun.

The other area we have targeted, which is also another crisis point in terms of the drop out level in sport, is women who fall away from sport either through their career or mothers returning to work having had their families. We have introduced a programme called camog-aerobics, which is a combined activity introducing both the skills of camogie together with aerobics. It is a fun event that brings women back to sport or maybe introduces some who would not be aware of the skills involved in the games that sometimes their sons and daughters play. We have also been lucky enough to be able to promote camogie in non-traditional counties such as Mayo, Kerry and Limerick where teams have gone on to have success at national level in Féile na nGael competitions and all-Ireland titles. It has been of huge benefit for us in terms of the direct investment from the Women in Sport programmes.

If the funding in this area is cut, it will allow the gender gap to continue. Bridging the gender gap in sport allows for a greater balance in the sporting community generally and for a greater and more enriched community with equal representation for males and females. Sport breaks down barriers and we are conscious that the Women in Sport funding allows sporting organisations to do this. This funding has allowed sporting organisations to address a number of other specific areas, including the introduction of additional administrators referees and coaches in sports, child protection, the delivery of courses and the roll out of programmes to ensure the safety of children in the participation of sport. By promoting women in sport, we create positive role models for young girls to aspire to, something that is very lacking at present when one consider the models that exist in the mainstream for young girls.

I will just give examples of some of the initiatives that have been run through the Women in Sport funding during recent years. The Irish Sailing Association had two successful water programmes, women on the water and women of windsurfing. Ladies Gaelic football delivered Gaelic for girls, a seven week programme for girls between the ages of 10 and 13 and Gaelic for mothers, a six week programme. The organisation Archery introduced archery to women in schools and universities in three counties in Ireland. The Surfing Association continues its wet and wild water women weekends and had a total of eight events in 2008 with more than 500 participants. The FAI has employed six development staff and runs participation initiatives in disadvantaged areas. The Irish Squash Association has expanded its schools programme. This is just a sample of the programmes that have been run as a direct result of the women in sport funding. I reiterate the importance of that element of the Irish Sports Council investment in sport.

Thank you. Before calling on Mr. Philip Browne to make his presentation I thank him and Mr. John Delaney for the invitation to the committee to visit the Aviva stadium recently. We visited it on 22 October and we wish them well with it. The stadium is coming along extremely well and we were very impressed. We look forward to it opening next year for the first game in August.

Mr. Philip Browne

The committee members will hear from my colleagues about the various benefits sport brings to Irish society. We are all conscious of the difficult times at present financially and otherwise, but one of the reasons we are here today is to try to persuade the committee and others that sport brings a number of tangible dividends to society. Members have heard about community building and building social cohesion in society and they will hear from others about the impact on health and building Ireland's profile. I will discuss the economic dividend.

Sport delivers a very tangible economic dividend which clearly justifies the investment made in it by the State through the Irish Sports Council. That economic dividend is delivered in the value of volunteerism and community building, sports tourism, direct employment, the delivery of major sporting events and the associated economic activity with those events. In 2003 the ESRI produced a report, with which the committee will be familiar, on the contribution of sport to the economy. It valued that economic contribution at 1.7% of GNP, or €1.4 billion. This was derived from the purely social aspects of sport, not the direct economic aspects. The investment made by the State in sport in 2003 was €112 million. There was, therefore, a 12-fold return on that investment in 2003 alone. That is very good value for money.

Rugby is a professional sport in Ireland. Over the past ten years we have taken the initiative of conducting economic impact assessments of the major sporting events we host in the Six Nations Championship. The Ireland v. England fixture in Croke Park in 2007 had an economic impact of €83 million, almost half of which was foreign revenue. That is a sizeable dividend for the State from its investment in sport, albeit at the top end of sport. The final output of the investment the Government makes at grassroots level is manifested in the international game. Munster conducted an economic impact study this year of its quarter final match against Ospreys in April in the new Thomond Park. The direct economic impact of that single match for the Limerick region was €10 million. The study estimated the further media and latent tourism value to be approximately €12 million. These economic impact studies are produced by reputable organisations so I put a great deal of credence in those figures. In the current season we estimate the economic impact of matches held in Thomond Park is probably €30 million to €40 million for the Limerick region. That is a conservative estimate.

That is Munster. What about Leinster and Connacht? We can conservatively state that rugby alone — I cannot speak for the other sports — is providing an economic impact to the State of approximately €300 million per year. That is a sizeable return to the State for the very modest investment it makes in Irish rugby. That is just one sport. What about hurling, camogie, Gaelic football, soccer and the Olympic sports? Sport generates a very tangible economic benefit for society, aside from all the other benefits and dividends derived from it.

Sports tourism is huge, particularly for golf. We do not have a representative for golf with us today but golf tourism is a massive boon for the State. The media impact of rugby in terms of promoting the country and the Ireland brand is significant. A total of 10 million people watched the Ireland v. France fixture this year, 5.5 million watched the Italy v. Ireland fixture, 9 million watched the Ireland v. England fixture, 6 million watched the Scotland v. Ireland fixture and 8 million watched the Wales v. Ireland fixture. That is just within these territories. Sport has a significant impact in promoting the country.

With regard to direct employment, it is estimated that there are approximately 1,300 employees delivering sport at grassroots level across all sports. They are directly dependent on Irish Sports Council funding for their employment and for delivering the programmes. Those people and the programmes are very vulnerable to any cuts in the Irish Sports Council's budget. Furthermore, they are all engaged in socially useful activity with further downstream benefits for the community and the State. The bottom line is that the State and the public are getting a very good deal from sport and the investment the State makes in sport through the Irish Sports Council.

Mr. John Delaney

It is unique to have the representatives of all the major sports bodies together here today. That indicates just how concerned we are about the funding of sport. In 2009, sport lost €116 million compared to 2008 in terms of spend, which is a great deal of money. The point has been made eloquently by everybody here that sport plays a vital role in the fabric of our society. In fairness to the Government, it has invested in sport and it deserves credit for the money that has been put into the sector in recent years. To cut sports funding now would be fundamentally wrong.

In France, Italy and Germany, sports facilities play a vital role in keeping the population active and healthy. Sport is central to a happy, balanced society where young people are active and out of trouble. The point Páraic made, which we all echo, is that one cannot turn the tap off and then turn it on again. If funding continues to be cut, it will be very difficult for us to turn the tap on again for all the terrific work all of us are doing in the community. I will give the committee some examples of that shortly.

All of us can talk at length about the importance of our clubs. We have 2,600 clubs throughout the country for the leagues and volunteers nationwide. Sport has the possibility of engaging everybody due to its universal appeal. We have 100,000 registered schoolboy and schoolgirl players under our auspices. I can offer the committee some examples of how we are reaching out to bring the marginal and disadvantaged of society into sport. One is in Ballymun and the committee might have heard me talking about it previously. This August we set up late night leagues every Friday with the Garda liaison groups in Ballymun. They were organised by our development officer, who is co-funded with the local authority and the Irish Sports Council, Jamie Wilson, and the Garda community officer, Keith Hughes. The five estates and the Traveller community were involved. The scheme focused on getting kids who were coming to the attention of the Garda organised to play football. On the Friday night before we started the league there were 87 anti-social behaviour call-outs and during the four weeks the league ran, there were 44 in total, which is an average of 11 per week. In the weekend after the league finished, there were 69. That is an example of how running soccer or sports events keeps kids out of trouble.

There is another very good example in the Limerick regeneration area where we work very closely with the agency. We have four development officers in Moyross and inner city areas. These are co-funded by the Limerick Regeneration Agency, the Irish Sports Council and us. The point is that with all the money we get from the Government we spend much more as well to achieve what we achieve. The Limerick scheme is tremendous. It has coaching sessions with fathers and sons. Obviously these are single parent families where the father would not know his son as well as he should or could. Through soccer they coach and play together. The fathers are encouraged to help with coaching. This helps to develop family relationships, creates a new community of volunteers and gives great self-esteem to both young and old. It is a wonderful example of how sport can get a father and son who do not live together communicating.

Another scheme we launched recently was an initiative to help the unemployed — there are more than 400,000 people unemployed here. This is a pilot project we ran in Lucan and Blanchardstown. It was also rolled out in Leitrim. It involves getting people who are unemployed on to our coaching ladder and getting them involved in sport. We are undertaking this scheme to try to combat the problems of suicide among young males. It has been a big success and is now being rolled out in other regions. It is giving unemployed people self-esteem, and they can then become community leaders. It gives them something to do in life, thus combating the negative effects of unemployment.

That is a snapshot of what we do and what all the other sports bodies do. If our funding is cut any further, however, we will not be able to do that. That is the bottom line. Every sport needs facilities, players, development officers and programmes. Funding is needed to do all that. I am not bothered about what sport my children play — whether it is hurling, Gaelic football, camogie, rugby or Olympic sports — once they have an opportunity to play the sport they want to play. If funding continues to be cut my children and those of everyone else will not have that ability to play sport. I am not talking about playing for Ireland but participating locally, thus tackling the health problems to which the Chairman referred.

Mr. Pat Hickey

I wish to speak about the Olympic sports, but in particular about the Olympic and Paralymic athletes, and the focus on the London Olympic Games of 2012. Those games are almost upon us and they are considered like a home Olympics. There is no doubt that come 2012, the Irish nation will be fully involved in them. Hopefully, at that stage, the country will be out of the current dire economic situation and there will be a feel-good factor. Therefore, the expectations from the Irish public for success at the games will be huge. If there is any cut in training facilities and preparation for the games for the Irish Olympic and Paralymic athletes it will be a disaster. If the moneys are turned on again in 2012 it will be to no avail. The money must continue if these athletes are to have success.

We have already lost out on one aspect of the Olympic Games in London because not one international team has decided to locate in Ireland for pre-Olympic training. This is mainly due to the fact that the plug has been pulled on the development of Abbotstown. It is a great concept and vision, but we had hoped that on the back of the London games Ireland would, at long last, have one supreme centre for athletes to train for top-level events from all over Ireland, and I stress the 32 counties. However, Abbotstown will not be finished. It has come to a full stop at the moment. If the same applies to the Irish Olympic and Paralympic athletes it will be a disaster. That is the reason I am joining with my colleagues here in full support of sports funding.

Mr. Matt English

I am from Special Olympics Ireland. I am sure everyone here remembers 2003 when the world games were held in Ireland for the first time. In many ways, the legacy of those games is so important. The organisation has gone from strength to strength following the impetus of those games and support from the Irish Sports Council. Today, some 11,000 athletes are training across 447 clubs throughout the 32 counties.

No one in this room will doubt the positive aspects of sport on health and well-being. Many interesting points have been made in the detailed report and I would like to highlight some of them. An estimated 1.9 million deaths annually are attributed to physical inactivity. It is clear that sport reduces the risk of cardiovascular disease, diabetes and osteoporosis. Obesity is a growing global problem in the western world and there is no doubt that sporting activity helps to control weight.

UK research has found that physical inactivity costs up to 11% of that country's health budget. The World Health Organisation is clear that physical activity and sports promotion is a cost effective way of improving health. A reduction in Government funding will put people's health at risk. My colleagues mentioned that even a short-term cut in funding will have a negative impact. Positive habits have been formed through the growth in sport, and such habits are very important.

I will take the liberty of quoting Stephen Covey: "Thoughts lead to purpose. Purpose leads on to actions. Actions form habits. Habits decide character and character fixes our destiny". During the first ten months of this year, 918 persons with an intellectual disability became involved in regular training who were not involved before. I would hate to think that their habits, which have strengthened their characters and improved their destiny, will be diminished by turning off funding supports.

Some members of the committee have left for a vote in the Seanad. The witnesses should not take their departure as a mark of disrespect.

Mr. Liam Harbison

Sport is one of the prime areas in Ireland which is open to all citizens. Sport is available to everyone through a range of programmes offered by the 90 or so sports bodies backing the Irish sports matters campaign. This is irrespective of gender, race, colour, creed or level of ability. Sport crosses many boundaries, but one of its most important values is that it is a gift for a lifetime if it is properly nurtured in a child's early development. On a personal note, this is clearly demonstrated to me on Saturday mornings when I play football with my three and a half year old son and then go swimming. In the afternoon, I play golf with my 70 year old father. It is an activity in which I have taken part since I was seven years of age, so it is for a lifetime. We can all recount similar stories of how sport has impacted on family life.

Sport has an amazing — and, in many ways, unquantifiable — power to promote inclusion in society. Not only does it include athletes, but also coaches, managers and the kit man. It also includes supporters of the Munster rugby team and a local under-eight soccer team. In the last ten to 20 years, sport has broken down many barriers. The power of sport to include has been clearly illustrated by the continued glow around the country from having hosted the 2003 Special Olympic world games. Mr. English already alluded to that.

The current level of inclusive sport in Ireland is the highest on record. Most people with disabilities can now participate in the sport of their choice at the appropriate level. These opportunities have come about by carefully targeted investment by the Irish Sports Council in national governing body programmes supporting these developments. It is these programmes which are under grave threat from the proposed cuts recommended in the McCarthy report — a proposed cut of 33% of the existing Irish Sports Council budget.

We in the Paralympic Council of Ireland, with assistance from the Irish Sports Council, launched a programme called ParaLions, which is to make people with disabilities in Ireland aware of the opportunities in paralympic sport. Part of that programme included an open day in DCU in May this year, which was a showcase for 20 paralympic sports available in Ireland. Over 100 volunteers, including Beijing 2008 team members, assisted on the day. We expected 50 to 60 children with disabilities to show up, but over 400 people came through the door. The children's faces clearly demonstrated the power sport has to connect with people with disabilities, once the opportunity is presented to them. They include young people like eight year old James Mannion from Portarlington, who I met then for the first time. He has no legs beneath the knees. When being assessed by our medical team to see which sports he is eligible for, he was asked to push his wheelchair across the floor. However, he hopped out of the wheelchair and walked on his hands for about 20 metres. He then proceeded to climb the inverted climbing wall in DCU, just using his hands, and then jumped off. There is amazing potential for people with disabilities once they are given the opportunity.

Three year old Joe McDonald from my own home town of Termonfeckin, County Louth, came along with his parents. He has spina bifida, but the impact sport can make was clearly demonstrated to me by a quote from his father. As he held back the tears, he said:

Liam, I felt cheated that I wouldn't be able to play sport with my son the way other fathers can, and I worried for Joe's future. Today has restored my faith and I now realise that with sport I can offer so much more to my son, and enjoy his participation as he grows older. He won't be excluded. Thank you for making this available to me and my son. As a direct result of the paralions programme, more than 400 individuals with physical and sensory disabilities are now actively involved in sports programmes throughout the country and have the paralympic games as their goal for the future.

In addition, within 18 months of launching the programme, 15 participants are now actively involved in national senior squads. Last week 16 year old Jonathan McGrath from Clare competed at the European swimming championships. We did not know about him 18 months ago. Last week 17 year old Dara Snell from Wicklow won his first cap for Ireland playing football at the cerebral palsy world championships in Holland in which Ireland finished fifth in the world.

The impact of the ParaLions programme is, in many ways, immeasurable to families and communities. The cost of the programme to date has been a mere €20,000. This is one programme under threat from the proposed cuts to sport. Every sports body has a similar story. It is imperative that sport is funded to current levels to protect the gains in terms of inclusion that have come about in recent years.

I reiterate a plea I made to the committee on my last appearance before it in the summer. The sports inclusion disability officer programme is coming to an end with the loss of dormant account funding. Some 21 people providing services to 30,000 people with disabilities in Ireland have become the local link for sports bodies and have been the critical factor in bringing young people, such as Jack Mangan from Portarlington and Joe McDonnell from Termonfeckin, within the sports environment in their local community. I fear for the whole inclusion system if we lose these 21 experts in the field over the next six months.

Sport needs to be protected. We are only on the road to where we want to go. We need vision, but what is vision? I believe it is as follows. Even if the way forward is unclear, we must still build the bridges to see what lies ahead.

That was an excellent summary. I thank the witnesses for giving us such factual presentations. It was a very diverse and powerful message which was based on statistics and the personal experiences of the individuals they represent and it covered the health, social and economic benefits of the sporting organisations represented. I thank Ms Sarah O'Connor for introducing everybody.

I will invite Deputy Mitchell from Fine Gael, Deputy Upton from the Labour Party, Deputy Michael Kitt from Fianna Fáil and Deputy Mary White from the Green Party to speak. All members of the committee share the love for sport which we gleaned from the witnesses. Will members skip the welcome, which I have given, and get straight to their comments? Members can give a short welcome.

We all start with a welcome. Deputy O'Mahony will be our main speaker on sport but I welcome the witnesses and reiterate what the Chairman said that we all appreciate the work the organisations represented do for sport and, consequently, for life generally. We are all conscious of the health benefits, both physical and mental, and the social, community and economic benefits of sport, which are particularly important at this time.

Mr. Philip Browne made the point that our sports people showcase Ireland very well abroad. From an economic point of view, they attract not only sporting events here but also tourism. They are a foreign revenue raiser and encourage inward investment because they introduce Ireland to foreigners in a very positive way. The value of sport is unquestionable.

I commend the witnesses on their submissions which were very well put together, made compelling arguments and, in many ways, told us what we already knew. Like every group in our society, the witnesses are making a submission to keep the funding they already have. They are pushing an open door as far as this committee is concerned because we are conscious that sport has taken a disproportionate hit, although many other areas have also taken a hit.

The sports capital grants have not only been reduced but have been cut. The same applies to the swimming pool grants. Funding for the Sports Council of Ireland is down by 10% to 11%. The capital grant which went to Lansdowne Road has not been replaced with a further grant. We anticipated it might go to the national sports stadium project but that has not happened. The reduction in sports funding last year was 32%. Strictly speaking, the funding for Lansdowne Road had finished but funding for sports was down considerably last year.

The message from everyone was all about the Sports Council of Ireland funding. That was everyone's priority in that everyone believes that would have the most deleterious effect on the ground. As was said, one cannot turn the tap off and then expect to turn it on again.

I listened to the news this morning about the unemployment figures and the impact unemployment is having on young people, in particular young men. Unemployment for young men is particularly acute and those between 15 and 24 years of age are most affected. When one loses one's expectations — all those young people had expectations — one loses purpose in life. Sport could play an enormous role in giving those young people, who may not have a job for the next couple of years, meaning, purpose and focus in their lives. The witnesses have my support and that of my party in doing everything possible to maintain funding for sport in what are undoubtedly difficult times.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentations and compliment them on their submission prior to the meeting which I found very succinct, clear and easy to follow. They have set out six key points. I could not argue with any of them. I fully support them. I can safely say that they will get the full support of the Labour Party in regard to sporting activities.

I will not make a speech because I wish to ask a few questions and make a few comments on what was said. I was pleased to hear Ms Sinead O'Connor and Ms Sarah O'Connor talk about non-competitive sport and how important sport is. That is included in the document but we must ensure we emphasise that as well. Not everyone is a super champion nor do we want or need everyone to be one. The advantages of participation were clearly explained by Mr. Matt English.

The Paralympics and Special Olympics are not mainstream sports but they are hugely important and we must ensure they are given all the support we can give them. Next year the European transplant games will come to Dublin. Again, they fall broadly within this category but perhaps they do not get as much emphasis as they should and we should include them.

In regard to women in sport, an ESRI report from a couple of years ago was very strong in regard to the role of women in sport and the lack of commitment to women in sport. The two points it highlighted were gender and social disadvantage. I agree with everything Ms Sinead O'Connor said in regard to women in sport.

The witnesses might not want to answer the following question but I will ask it anyhow. Do they have a view on the dinosaurs who went to the Supreme Court to keep women out of some golf clubs? It was extraordinary that it was pushed that far. Mr. Philip Browne mentioned golf tourism. I cannot imagine that will be particularly advantageous to women who might want to come to Ireland to play golf. I would be interested to hear comments on that.

We must ensure we retain what we have. I believe Mr. John Delaney said it is very hard turn the tap on and off and to get back to where one was. I would like to hear views on sharing sporting facilities. We can put a huge amount of money into capital development, which is important and must be sustained. However, it is hugely important we share those facilities. This exclusivity of having a particular pitch, sports hall, physical education facility or otherwise should not happen.

There is great co-operation here today. It is great to see all these sporting interests come together. However, it is equally important to ensure that where the State rightly spends vast amounts of money developing top class facilities, they are open and available to as many people as possible in the community. Reinventing the wheel is not a good idea and it does not make economic sense. It is important that in small towns, which have GAA, rugby and soccer clubs, sports facilities should be designed to accommodate all clubs given State funding is being used.

Will Ms O'Connor comment on the Just Sport Ireland initiative? Money is wasted in disputes. It is inevitable that they happen because that is life but where State funding is given to an organisation, should they have to give an undertaking that they will participate in this initiative as a way of resolving disputes? Vast amounts have been expended by clubs, small organisations and individuals in the name of sport and defending their rights but there is another way. I subscribe to the notion that recipients should give an undertaking and make a commitment to this initiative to get away from litigation and the significant costs associated with it.

School programmes are important because that is how young people are introduced to sports. What is the federation's view on sport as an examination subject? This proposal been bandied about for a long time and it should be in place. Commitments would be needed to ensure that happens. Yesterday I attended the Loreto College, Crumlin, in my constituency, which has been seeking a sports hall and other facilities since 1984. It is a good school, which is socially inclusive and academically excellent, but it does not have a PE hall or other sports facility. The administrators of the school are more than open to making the facility available to the community and anybody in their catchment area who wants to avail of it. Perhaps this is an issue for the Departments of Education and Science and Arts, Sport and Tourism but I would like to hear the federation's views on how such facilities could be better utilised in the community, including for non-competitive sports. It is important that we wake up to the reality of sharing the best facilities and services.

I would like to address my next question to Mr. Delaney in the context of the promotion of Irish sport. Sport makes us feel good. What efforts were made by the FAI in association with the other three countries seen as the second part of the league in terms of the play-offs, in order to keep us out of a seeded situation? It is over and as far as Ireland is concerned we have got the worst draw. However, what type of combined effort was made to address this? I am thinking of Irish sport and how we will fare. If this had gone to an open draw, we would have taken our chances and we might have ended up with the same draw. That we were in a situation where there was a seeding process and we were relegated, effectively, to the second division and we had to draw against a stronger country, meant that we were automatically on the back foot. I sincerely hope, as I am sure everybody else does, we qualify for the tournament in South Africa anyhow, but the seeding process has been a very bad one for the country.

The Deputy has covered many issues. I have bet on Ireland at 11/5 to qualify for the World Cup. I refer to the issue of sharing facilities, which Mr. Browne and Mr. Delaney might not like me to raise. During a visit to the Aviva stadium by a committee delegation, we raised the issue of sharing facilities. When the stadium is up and running, the notion of hosting a major soccer or rugby event in Croke Park should not be ruled out. Several members mentioned this to IRFU and FAI representatives when we visited the Aviva stadium on the basis that where there is public demand for a World Cup qualifier or major rugby match, Croke Park can hold 30,000 more spectators. I do not want to dampen the excitement about the new stadium but there will be a case for the people we represent to leave that option open. I am throwing that into the mix and I would like Mr. Delaney and Mr. Browne to comment on that, although I acknowledge the corporate commitments and so on attaching to the Aviva stadium.

I refer to the issues raised regarding the Special Olympics and the Paralympics. The 2003 event was tremendous. One of the great aspects of it was the twinning of towns throughout the country with competing nations. The committees established in each town are still in place. What involvement has the federation with them in their preparations for the next games?

I agree with Mr. Hickey that it is sad that we do not have an international centre in Abbotstown but many athletes use Ireland for training and to deal with sports injuries. The Government is making efforts to make sure elite athletes acquire medical treatment in the State but I hope more will happen between now and 2012. Perhaps Mr. Hickey will comment on that.

I am interested in the gender issues relating camogie, ladies football and golf, to which Deputy Upton referred. They have been forgotten and it is correct that they have been raised at this meeting. I hope more progress can be made in realising the involvement of women in sport.

I am interested in GAA sports, which are described as "amateur", but there is huge competition. There have been many disputes, objections and delayed matches in recent times and player power has emerged and become stronger in the context of the direction teams are taking. It used to be said a player was only as good as his last game whereas now it seems the coach or manager is only as good as his or her last game. Discipline is a difficulty in all sports but it is amazing these issues are rising in so-called amateur sports. I hope help will be provided as a great variety of sports are played. The community games are a good example of this and they are doing well. We must also consider non-competitive sports and I hope we do not lose sight of them.

With regard to sports turning professional, what is the position of smaller rugby and soccer clubs? Funding is a difficulty for soccer generally and this must be examined in the overall context of funding for sports. The sports capital programme should be reopened because it has proved beneficial. It was disappointing that grants could not be provided this year but I hope the programme can be built on. Given clubs and organisations have to produce matching funds through loans or fund raising and this takes a major effort, those involved appreciate the grant even more when they have to put a package together to secure sports facilities.

I also hope sport will be considered as an examination subject. If every sporting body offers the services of its coaches, I do not know where the time will be found to allow them to visit all of our schools. It is important, therefore, to make provision in this regard on the school curriculum.

I will allow all members to make contributions at this stage but I ask them to be as brief as possible. Our guests can then reply in respect of the various points raised. I call Deputy Mary White.

Let us cut to the chase; Ireland is a sports-mad country and I am a sports-mad person. I made a huge number of friends and acquaintances while playing sport at a very high level at school and college, and I have kept up those friendships and maintained my keenness for sport. In light of the big snips that are due on 9 December, as a Government Deputy I wish to ensure that sport will retain its funding. Rather than rehash the points made by other members, I want to refer to the benefits of sport for communities.

On Saturday mornings, one will see parents dropping their children to, for example, GAA or squash clubs. I am extremely keen on hockey and squash and I was delighted to see a good picture of an extremely happy hockey-playing person in the brochure with which members were presented. We salute our wonderful international athletes but we must not forget the people who encourage children's involvement in sport after school hours and at weekends. On freezing cold Saturday and Sunday mornings, these individuals stand beside hockey, rugby, soccer and GAA pitches. They are the quiet, dedicated people who are fostering sport at community level. It is their work in which I am particularly interested. I hope that funding for their activities will continue to be provided from the sports capital programme via the local sports partnerships and that there will not be severe and swingeing cuts in respect of sport.

Everyone is aware of the benefits of keeping oneself fit and healthy. Rather than worrying about the number of beds available in hospitals, we should be concerned with regard to the amount of money we are investing in sport in order to keep people out of those hospitals. Yesterday, I visited a school in Athy and had the opportunity to discuss the matter of obesity in children, type 2 diabetes and the number of people who are not engaged in sport. As Deputy Upton stated, a certain cohort of girls of a certain age do not believe it is "cool" to play sport. These girls must be encouraged to play sport. I am delighted a representative of Cumann Camógaíochta na nGael is present. As they enter their teenage years, we must ensure that girls do not end their involvement with sport.

There may be a need to revamp the supports for sport in primary schools. Many such schools do not dedicate much time to sport or PE. I was chairman of a school board of management in my local town of Borris a number of years ago and I am aware that very little sport was included on the curriculum at primary level. We must look beyond our wonderful current sports stars and the completion of work on the Aviva Stadium to our future stars, namely, the children who engage in sport every Saturday morning. We must also encourage the efforts of their parents and the school teachers who support them. We must provide funding from the bottom up in order that future sports stars will be produced. We are all singing from the same hymn sheet in this regard.

Arts Council representatives, writers, playwrights and dramatists recently came before the committee, and we are all saying the same thing, namely, that Ireland is a crazy, sports-loving nation and that its people also love their culture and heritage. These are the areas to which, particularly in times of deep recession, funding must be provided. Let us not forget that we are not just an economy; we are also a society.

It is good to see the teamwork among our guests, who represent various sports. The major teams and our Olympic, Special Olympic and Paralympic stars are represented.

I wish to concentrate on a number of specific matters. Will our guests put forward their views on sports capital funding? A number of previous speakers referred to this matter and it is something which we all, particularly those of us involved in sport, want to maintain. It has been stated that sport has taken a disproportionate hit. The Minister has put sports capital funding on hold for two reasons, namely, the economic situation and to allow a review to be carried out in respect of how things might be done better. If it is to be reinstated — we all hope that this will be the case — will our guests indicate how they believe improvements might be made? There was a major geographical inequality with regard to the way it was allocated and there have been allegations that this was as a result of political interference etc.

A number of members referred to the sharing of sports facilities. In the future, conditions relating to the sharing of facilities should apply in respect of sports capital funding. I raised this matter on my visit to Lansdowne Road, which is a wonderful project. The stadium there will be completely different from Croke Park in the sense that the atmosphere will be extremely intimate. However, an opportunity was missed with regard to the sharing of facilities. If a rugby match between Ireland and England is taking place in this country, the maximum number of fans should be able to attend. I am aware that this matter has been addressed and that reference has been made to corporate considerations, planning difficulties, etc. I hope the Irish rugby team goes on to win many grand slams. In light of the capacity of the new stadium, there is no doubt that tickets for matches involving Ireland and England at Lansdowne Road will be as expensive as tickets for the World Cup Final.

Perhaps it might be possible to link this matter with that of the involvement of women in sport. The pitch at Lansdowne Road is not sufficiently large to allow hurling or Gaelic football to be played there. I wonder whether it would be possible to play ladies Gaelic football or camogie there. I see from the reaction of our guests that this would not be possible. As stated, an opportunity has been missed with regard to the sharing of facilities.

Local soccer clubs at Charlestown or Swinford in County Mayo need their pitches in order to fulfil their fixture obligations. In that context, I do not believe there can be as much sharing of facilities at local level. At national level, however, this is not the case. On how many occasions is Croke Park sold out for a sporting fixture? As previous speakers indicated, at present it would be possible to completely fill the stadium only for All-Ireland finals and for matches involving Ireland and England in soccer and rugby. There are matches played at Croke Park at which the attendance might only be 30,000. This means that the stadium is less than half full.

I would be interested in hearing our guests' comments on this matter. The President of the GAA stated yesterday that he does not envisage rugby or soccer being played at Croke Park in the coming years. I compliment the GAA on the way in which it faced up to this issue in recent years because the action it took worked out to everyone's benefit. However, the fans will miss out from now on. Mr. Browne stated that a soccer match involving Ireland and England at Croke Park would generate approximately €83 million. The same amount would not be generated if the fixture was played at Lansdowne Road because fewer fans could attend.

I support the concept of women in sport. At present, women involved in sport are very much discriminated against. I am familiar with women's Gaelic football and I am aware that those involved at the highest level cannot claim expenses. It costs these women a huge amount to pursue their involvement in sport, whereas their male counterparts, as a result of the efforts of the GAA welfare officers and the GPA, are paid travelling expenses. This is just one example of how women involved in sport are suffering.

Reference was made to the ESRI report in the context of participation in sport. While the report indicates that there was an increased participation in sport, it is evident that this was on an individual level. In other words, people are joining the local gym rather than their local soccer or GAA clubs. It is obvious that funding is necessary to support participation in team sports. This is critical because team sports bring more than just fitness and health. They contribute to the ability to accept either winning or losing and help people to accept a result and move on.

I welcome the delegation and thank them sincerely for all the work they have put in over the years in their various sports. They have contributed way beyond the call of duty through their dedication and giving their time. All of us here appreciate that.

While we support the application before us, I wonder should we widen its scope. What do we mean when we talk about sport? We mean that each and every one of us can enjoy sport, play sport, participate and watch it. However, sport has an even wider application than this. It now provides protection, variety and opportunities to communities and provides for the development of those communities. Whatever the sport, its clubhouse is available to the community and to whatever local association wants to hold a meeting or a function. In that regard, sports clubs have a significant responsibility to ensure that this facility for our youth — the men and women of tomorrow — will be protected. This is the challenge for us today.

The challenge for this committee is to prove to the Government that this issue is not just about sport, but is about community and providing alternatives in the community to the use of drugs, illegal substances and everything else that goes with those. I have argued long and hard with the various Ministers related to the portfolio for which I am spokesperson, that if we do not provide the alternative of sports facilities and community activities, which are being provided week in and week out by the wonderful organisations represented here, we are giving in and losing the battle. I see no logic in the idea that the national drug strategy should be an afterthought. I want to see the national drug strategy leading the way so that every youngster from every community, whether rural or urban, will have a place to go where he or she can be entertained or take part in leisure and sport facilities. That is how things should be and that is what the groups here today offer.

The challenge for the Government now is to decide whether it will cut the funds of these associations. Never before have these community organisations been as important as they are now. Each family is being hit by cutbacks and people no longer have the money to go out to concerts or whatever. However, local community activities are there to take up that loss and provide an alternative. We must develop this. The Minister for Finance must take a broader view of the situation, rather than just say the Sports Council can do this or that. He must have regard for all levels of sport.

Mr. Pat Hickey is here today to represent the Olympic Council of Ireland. Time and again we have spoken here about the wonderful opportunity that exists for Irish athletes in 2012 to get to the Olympics without having to worry about the significant costs that were involved in getting to Beijing or elsewhere. The Olympics in London in 2012 are our opportunity to make an impact. It is unbelievable, therefore, to think that we will prevent a significant number of athletes from attending because we will not provide the funding required in the short term for training and facilities.

I hope in the presentation he will make to the Minister for Finance, our Chairman will make our view known on this issue so that provisions will encompass communities and sporting activities and have heed to the protection of our youth. Past experience of recessions is proof that drug abuse and the use of illegal substances increase in such periods. The groups represented here offer us an alternative. If we do not take that alternative, it will be a disgrace on this committee, the Government and all Members. It will mean we have not seen sense and recognised what community and sporting organisations have to offer to our youth to protect them. The opportunity for a better life for them in the future will have been lost.

Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh na baill ó na heagraíochtaí éagsúla spóirt. From every perspective, we are pushing an open door here today. I recognise and acknowledge the economic, health, social and whole range of issues raised here. It goes without saying that sport is and always has been a valuable part of Irish society. Sport today offers a huge range of activity compared with the 1960s, 1970s or 1980s. In my day, I only had the opportunity to play Gaelic games, hurling and football, and was delighted to be able to do that. Now I see my daughters playing hockey, though I regret they did not get to play camogie for Cumann Camógaíochta na nGael. However, society has moved on and we now have a phenomenal range of sporting activities available in every town and village.

I congratulate my fellow St. Vincent's school colleague, Mr. Pat Hickey, on his elevation to President of the European Olympic committee. It is a great tribute to Ireland that we have people of his calibre who are elevated to a European position in such a major body.

On the issue of sharing use of sporting facilities, soccer, Gaelic and rugby clubs want to have their own grounds because of the number of games being played. No matter where one goes at the weekends, one sees cars parked at pitches where thousands of kids are involved in sports. Therefore, at local level pitches cannot be shared as much as we would like. However, I have noted significant overlapping with regard to all-weather facilities. For example, a local GAA club will have an all-weather pitch as will a local soccer club and perhaps the local rugby club. Considering running costs and the economic situation, that is an area where we could make a case for cutting back. Rather than have three all-weather facilities in one town, none of which is making much of a profit because they are costly in terms of lighting and surface maintenance, we should agree to review this. We should do an audit of where facilities are available and where not, to avoid any further overlap. In the past, when we had the money to be flaithiúil, people sought funding for their local pet project, whether soccer, rugby or GAA club. The Minister might ask whether such a facility was not already there, but the applicant would say another was needed.

Croke Park is an excellent facility. On our visit to Lansdowne Road I raised the issue with regard to the use of Croke Park. I believe it would be in everyone's interest if some arrangement, including a compensatory package, could be made in the interim for all of the people who have bought into Lansdowne. Catering people are already contracted for matches and, equally, Aviva would like to see its name up in lights during the matches.

A total of 30,000 people will willingly go to those matches and the followers of the French and English rugby teams spend big money and will not argue whether the price of the pint has gone up by one cent. Money is not an obstacle in this regard. I ask the IRFU and the GAA to sit down and try to work out some economic package which would compensate those who have contracted into Lansdowne Road. The reality is a total of 83,000 people will go to Croke Park for those international events.

Funding is provided by the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism. I refer to the new Irish who participate in sport and play games, either soccer or rugby. The African Irish, the European Irish all play. I saw photographs on the sports pages of the Dublin hurling club, Craobh Ciaráin, which has an adult hurling player of African descent. In my view funding should also be provided by Departments such as Deputy Ó Cuív's Department and the Department of Health and Children. We all agree that participation in sport leads to a reduction in health problems. The case can be made in the context of a shrinking budget to write to the Minister for Health and Children and the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, to ask for some contribution towards activities of benefit to their Departments.

With regard to the London Olympic Games it is regrettable that the facility in Abbotstown has not proceeded as quickly as we would wish. Mr. Hickey stated that countries will not use Ireland for training purposes but Ireland is only a 45-minute plane journey from any event taking place in the UK. We should promote this aspect as there is no reason to stop the supporters coming to Ireland.

I note the delegation does not include a representative of ladies GAA. Is Mr. Duffy acting as representative today?

Mr. Páraic Duffy

Not particularly.

It would have been nice although I am pleased to see Ms Sinead O'Connor here as a representative of camogie. Ladies Gaelic football is one of the fastest growing sports and it would be nice if they had a representative here. We all acknowledge the under-representation of women but they are fast catching up. They are now playing rugby as well as soccer, etc.

Mr. Duffy is representing the broader GAA community at the meeting today. It is a recognition of the diversity of the delegation that members' contributions are lengthy. I will not stop anyone from speaking because there are many people here with a lot of experience in their own areas of sport and this includes Deputy Michael Ring and Senator Jerry Buttimer.

I thank the Chairman and I welcome the delegation. It is great to see everybody together in one delegation. With regard to funding, be that lotto funding or departmental funding, this is taxpayers' money. The taxpayers of Ireland put the money into all the Departments and the Minister apportions that money on behalf of the taxpayer.

It is important that everybody is here together as one group. Sport is about people participating and giving people opportunities. I do not mind what sport people play once they are involved.

I hope the Chairman will write to the Minister to ask for funding to keep sport alive in this country. We do not want to go back 20 years with regard to sports funding. It would be a big mistake not to provide the funding for sport. I appeal to the GAA, the soccer and rugby groups on behalf of families. People are going through a very difficult time in this recession. I appeal to all the sporting groups to consider the price of tickets to games and the cost of taking children to events. I ask them to ensure families are not deprived of taking part in sport because of cost. We are inclined to have a "rip-off" attitude in this country.

It would give the country a lift if Ireland could qualify for the soccer World Cup. I do not mean to put any pressure on Mr. John Delaney or Mr. Trappatoni but we hope it happens.

On the question of rip-off, just because sporting organisations know they will get a crowd at an event I ask them not to rip off the people. I acknowledge the voluntary effort in sport and people want to pay a fair price to go to sporting events.

I refer to the scandalous action of airlines as a result of the World Cup draw which was raised by my colleague, Deputy O'Mahony. It is no wonder people go to the North to do their shopping, and do not stay in Ireland. I will tell the committee why they do not stay in Ireland to do their shopping because we have this culture of rip-off, rip-off, rip-off. The airlines are doing it now. They ripped off people on the cost of flying to France once the World Cup draw was known. Why do they not think the other way and offer more planes at the same price? It was instead a case of charging the people twice as much as they were charging an hour before the draw. This needs to be examined by the sporting organisations who should also consider families and the pressures on people.

Most of the sporting organisations are based in Dublin and the annual general meetings are held in Dublin. I was pleased to see Mr. Delaney and the FAI come down to County Mayo to hold their annual general meeting. They went around the whole county and this was a great lift for people. There are great facilities and hotels in Mayo, Connacht and Munster and other places. We can provide for any conference that wants to come to Westport. I hope that sporting organisations move out of Dublin and look after the people who look after them.

Deputy O'Mahony spoke about the grants system. There might not be as many people playing sport in our province but we also need to have the support which the sporting organisations are looking for from Government. People in rural Ireland need that support because all the facilities are in Dublin. We want some of those facilities in rural areas to keep our young people involved in sport. We ask the delegation to think about the smaller counties and the rural areas with fewer people in the schools. We would like to see the sporting organisations spreading their money as much as possible. Sport is wonderful and we need it now more than ever, particularly in recessionary times. I hope the organisations will work together just as they are working together today. I could speak for another hour on this subject but I will finish now. If I was a Minister I would look at the schools and all the sporting organisations. I am glad the GAA opened up its facilities and will keep them open. I want facilities to be shared. I do not like to see schools that get grant aid from the Department and from sporting organisations not making those facilities available to the community after school hours. It does not matter whether young, middle-aged or older people are involved. Once they want to participate in sport we should be trying to make it easier and not harder for them.

I am delighted to see the representatives of all the sporting bodies today with the common goal of getting people to take part in sport. I ask the organisations not to deprive people because of money, particularly at this time of economic hardship. They were there in the good days for the sporting bodies and I hope they will be there for the people now. The bodies should investigate ways to encourage families to stay involved. Money should not be an obstacle preventing them taking part in sport because that would be a sad day for sport.

I wish all the Federation of Irish Sports well. It should keep up the good work. I thank the volunteers in all its organisations. The people here today are the ones who run their organisations. However, I want to thank the women, men and young people who give their time voluntarily to the GAA, soccer, rugby and all the other sporting organisations. We would not have any sporting organisations without the voluntary effort these people put in. I wish all the organisations well. I hope everybody can continue to take part in sport and that we can hold on to the funding we have. I hope the Government does not make a mistake as we made in the past, by holding the sporting organisations back for another 20 years just because we have bad times now. The Government should at least maintain present funding to keep them going.

I apologise to the delegation for missing some of the presentations owing to a vote in the Seanad. As Deputy Ring has said it is good to see unity in sport, which sends a positive message today. That should be underlined given that we have had a lot of factions in sport in recent months in this committee. The GAA congress was held in Cork this year. It was a very successful congress and Mr. Duffy will be very welcome back to Cork any time he wants to come.

One of the biggest threats to sport is the cutback in education, particularly the reduction in teachers' hours. Have the sporting bodies met representatives of the Departments of Education and Science, and Arts, Sport and Tourism? If they do not get young people early they will not stay and become involved in sport. As a teacher, I feel the education process is the vehicle to go forward. Have the bodies met the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, and his officials? What did they have to say in that regard?

The Government is abdicating the responsibility it has to sport, to the participants in sport from the bottom to the top, and to those present who are charged with running their organisations. I note from Ms O'Connor's excellent presentation that they are not looking for more. Their funding was cut last year and if we are real about it here the expectation is that a cut will be announced in this year's Estimates process. Given that sport contributes 1.7% of our GDP, the Government should take its responsibility to sport seriously but it has not. Mr. Pat Hickey gave the example of Abbotstown. That could be the biggest white elephant in Irish sport or it could be a legacy to the vision of people involved in Government and sport as to how we can be a better sporting nation. I understand planning permission has been granted for the development there. When does that permission expire? What have the sporting bodies been told about the future expansion of Abbotstown? I appreciate it is now too late for the London Olympic Games in 2012, which represents a missed opportunity. We spoke about sport tourism. That was an opportunity to drive Ireland forward.

I believe the McCarthy report condemns sport and shows contempt for all of us who are sportspeople. It treats everybody in sport with contempt. Have the representatives of the sporting organisations spoken to the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism or the Taoiseach regarding the Government's plans for the McCarthy report? The abolition of the Department with responsibility for sport would be the single biggest error made in our sporting history. A great decision was taken in 1997 to introduce it; it should always have been a separate Department. I want to hear the view of the delegation on the McCarthy report and if I missed them earlier I apologise.

Has the Federation of Irish Sports contacted the Government about the reinstatement of the sports capital programme? I say that as someone involved in my own GAA club. Mr. Duffy mentioned its benefit. It was Government money that was well spent and also raised voluntary money through the local clubs of any sporting organisation. We have a deficit in the provision of funding for the sports capital programme. If I am wrong someone can correct me. The national lottery was established to help in partly funding sport. Has the Government given any indication to the sporting bodies as to whether it will reintroduce the sports capital programme? Where is the national lottery money going? It should be going to sport.

My next question is a contentious one. I acknowledge the economic situation and that we are all taking pay cuts. Everyone in this room on both sides of the table and perhaps even the journalists in the Visitors Gallery have taken pay cuts. I direct my question particularly to Mr. Delaney and Mr. Browne. Have soccer and rugby players taken pay cuts in their contracts? Has there been a moderation in the payments to managers and players? The GPA has recognised that within the GAA, the grant situation is untenable compared with what it has been. I do not want see a pay cut for sportspeople. However, have the sportspeople taken a pay cut? Given that we are looking to fund sport, have the people who have benefited in the professional era been asked to take a cut? If they have not, that is fine; it is up to the individual organisations.

It is wonderful that we have an umbrella body bringing people together. Sport is a very important part of our Irish fabric. Coming from the most sporting county in Ireland, County Cork, I appreciate sport even more.

I thank the delegates for their patience and listening so attentively. I have enjoyed this meeting. As the new Chairman of the committee I feel it has been the most significant meeting we have had. It has brought together an outstanding group of people. I need to respond to my own members also. On foot of this meeting and having listened to everyone present I will convey in the strongest possible terms a message from this group to three Ministers, the Ministers for Finance, Arts, Sport and Tourism, and Health and Children.

A Member

The Taoiseach.

And the Taoiseach, of course.

The Minister for Education and Science.

Yes. I will contact all the relevant Ministers because it is a Government issue. I will be articulating the point that there have already been serious cuts in this area. We need to protect funding for sport for all the reasons the federation has mentioned, including health, social and economic reasons. I believe that the Department with responsibility for sport should also promote fitness. Great work is being done in our schools, such as the promotion of walking to school days. That is the way to go and the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism should be centrally involved working with the Department of Education and Science in that area.

When responding the witnesses might pick the areas that are relevant to their individual sporting codes. The most important thing coming from this meeting will be a message to the various Ministers that we totally support the very strong message the Federation of Irish Sport has delivered based on facts and statistics. We have touched on some broader issues which have relevance to the message of economies and getting value for money.

The issue of sharing facilities was mentioned. Some of my colleagues and I raised an issue earlier to which I wish to return. I do not wish to embarrass anybody, but it is an economic issue. Mr. Browne mentioned the economic value of the Ireland versus England rugby match played in Croke Park. I was present at that match and it was probably one of the greatest sporting moments I witnessed in my life. There is an issue regarding sharing facilities, not taking away from how great the Aviva Stadium will be. As a small island nation I would like to think if there was a once-off match with huge demand, as will happen, that the FAI and the IRFU could still talk to the GAA about the use of Croke Park. That is all I am saying. The delegates might say it cannot happen for other reasons. This practical suggestion has been made by the joint committee. I do not wish to detract from the strong message we will deliver on behalf of the various organisations.

I would like to pick up on a point that was made by Mr. Browne. The major events that take place in Dublin and throughout the country bring huge economic value to this country. The more people we can attract to them, the better. In the sport of athletics, there has been an increase in the number of marathons in this country. I think we can do much more in that regard too. I am proud to have participated in a number of marathons in Ireland and overseas, in places like Boston and Berlin. Substantial numbers of people travel to cities throughout the world to compete in these fantastic events. The whole issue of major events is an important one. We can get value for money from them.

The most fundamental point is that sport is important for the health and well-being of the nation. We emphasise in our contributions the work of people at community level. That is the key point. We thank all the witnesses, in their own ways, for what they are bringing to today's discussion. Their associations represent many people across the length and breadth of Ireland, in the North and in the South. I thank them for that. Ms O'Connor can act as the chairperson of the delegation, if she likes. Many issues have been raised. Perhaps we will start with Mr. Duffy from the GAA before moving across the room. If Ms O'Connor wants to make some concluding remarks, she can do so.

Mr. Páraic Duffy

I would like to respond to some of the points that may be relevant from a GAA perspective. Deputy Upton raised the issue of sport in the education system. Before I started to work for the GAA, I was the principal of St. Macartan's College in Monaghan for 11 years and worked as a teacher for 20 years before that. I know a little bit about the scene. I understand the Deputy's point that sport should be a subject on the examination curriculum. The difficulty, as she suggested, is that many schools simply do not have the resources to offer sport as an examination subject. It was mentioned earlier that a number of organisations are sending coaches into schools. The FAI, the IRFU and other organisations make huge contributions to sport in our schools. Much of their personnel is funded by the Irish Sports Council. The GAA sends coaches, many of whom are directly funded from Irish Sports Council funding, into primary and second level schools throughout the country. If that funding is reduced, fewer coaches from all sports will go into our schools and the sport curriculum will suffer greatly.

I would like to respond to the point made by Senator Buttimer. Schools are suffering as a result of the limitation on substitution cover, which has had a serious impact on the GAA's schools programme. A few schools have been forced to withdraw from the programme because they cannot cover teachers when they take kids out to play matches. That is a huge loss to schools and to our sports and other sports. If that continues in the years to come, sport will play a much smaller role in schools than is presently the case.

I would like to speak about transparency and accountability in the context of the spending of money under the sports capital funding programme. Before the programme was cut, the GAA made it clear to the Government and the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism that it was willing to prioritise the projects that should benefit from funding. While we have tried to set priorities, such decisions have to be made by the Department and by the Minister at the end of the day. We are open to any suggestions that will ensure the taxpayer gets value for money, as Deputy Ring said. The money invested in the sports capital programme should be used wisely. I would welcome any suggestions from the Government on how the procedure could be better than it was in the past. I emphasise that the GAA has benefitted hugely from the sports capital funding programme. We thank the Government for that.

The role of ladies, which was also mentioned, has been one of our key challenges in recent years. As ladies football has grown, we have allowed the Ladies Gaelic Football Association of Ireland, which is an autonomous organisation, to use our facilities. Our clubs have benefitted from having to invest more money in facilities to enable ladies football teams and clubs to be established. One of the great benefits of the sports capital programme has been that we have been able to expand our facilities to allow further growth in the ladies game. We are open to better ways of doing it. It is primarily a matter for the Government to say to us that it wants to introduce new measures of accountability and transparency. We will certainly be willing to help with the process of prioritising such measures.

One of the issues that has come up is the sharing of facilities. I would like to respond to Deputy O'Mahony's comments about Lansdowne Road, in the context of yesterday's statement by the president of the GAA. Our position on the future use of Croke Park is based on our respect for the views of the FAI and the IRFU. They have developed a wonderful new stadium. We respect their stated position, which is that they wish to use the stadium for all their fixtures. If the FAI or the IRFU decide to consider changing that position, the GAA will talk to them. One of the benefits of the use of Croke Park by the FAI and the IRFU over recent years has been the development of an excellent relationship between the three organisations. The fact that we are here today is significant. I have a first-class working relationship with Mr. Browne and Mr. Delaney. That is the way it is at national level. This is a matter for the FAI and the IRFU. We will not comment further. It is a matter for them to decide what their position is. We will respect their views, whatever they may be, and respond to them in the future. We are always open to the sharing of facilities.

I understand Deputy Upton's point about the importance of sharing all facilities. It is a question of value for money. When the redevelopment of Lansdowne Road was initially proposed, there was a possibility that it would be used for gaelic games as well. We were very open to that, but it did not happen for very good reasons. We would have liked Tallaght Stadium to have been developed as a multi-sport facility too. It is not possible to play our games there. As an organisation, we are open to the sharing of facilities. I appreciate that will have to be a key factor in urban areas where land is scarce and money is tight. The GAA is open to that. Many local authorities have developed floodlit astroturf pitches over recent years. Many of those pitches do not facilitate the playing of gaelic games because they are too small. We would love to see local authorities developing full-size astroturf pitches that can be used for gaelic football, hurling, soccer, rugby, etc. The GAA would be a willing participant in the sharing of such facilities.

While I was principal of St. Macartan's College in Monaghan, it was lucky enough to get Government funding for a sports hall. We raised a lot of money ourselves. One of the commitments we gave the Minister who provided the funding at the time, Deputy Martin, was that we would make our facilities available to local groups in the evening. I have been gone for the school for three years, but I understand that the sports hall is in full use every evening from 6 p.m. to 10 p.m. That can be done. Part of the responsibility is on the Government to attach such conditions when funding is being provided.

I was also asked about the resolution of disputes. I was interested in Deputy Upton's comments about various means of resolving disputes. I remind her that the GAA established an internal disputes resolution authority four years ago. It is in its fifth year now. In the past five years, just one GAA dispute has gone to the courts. It proved to be a very costly experience for the group that took the case. GAA clubs do not go to the courts any more. They use the internal disputes resolution procedure, which has been extremely successful for the association. I welcome any developments in that regard.

I cannot argue with Deputy Michael Kitt's suggestion that the GAA always seems to have problems with objections. That has been the way of the GAA for the last 125 years, unfortunately, and will probably continue for the next 125 years. I will not argue that point.

I assure Deputy Ring, who spoke about ticket prices, that we are conscious of our responsibilities to our supporters. The GAA's attendance figures held up extremely well this year, despite the economic situation, although its revenues fell significantly because it charged lower prices. While our headline prices may have remained the same, we allowed kids into virtually every game in Croke Park this summer, with the exception of the All-Ireland Final, for €5. Family tickets are available in every one of our stadiums. We will continue to do all we can to offer value for money to our patrons. The GAA congress has not been held in Dublin in any of the last four years. As Senator Buttimer said, it was held in Cork this year.

Come to Mayo, for God's sake.

Mr. Páraic Duffy

We were in Sligo last year. We will be in Newcastle, County Down, next year. The GAA is a 32-county organisation. We will be in Mullingar the following year. If we get an application from County Mayo, I am sure we will look on it favourably.

We will have a civic reception for the GAA in Westport. We can do no more.

Mr. Páraic Duffy

We will definitely come.

Ms Sinéad O’Connor

Now that a camogie county board has been established in Mayo, we might look to go there within a few years. It will be a few years before Connacht gets its turn again.

I am delighted with the support that has been given to women in sport, in general, and with the comments that have been made by the members of the committee. The non-competitive element of sport, which has been mentioned, is very important. I speak on behalf of all organisations that represent the interests of women in sport. We have a close relationship with the Ladies Gaelic Football Association of Ireland. Many of our players are dual players. I would like to think that the issues I am raising would be representative of their views on a lot of things as well. They benefit as much as we do from Irish Sports Council funding and women in sport funding. We have many of the same views on these matters.

I would like to comment on something Mr. Duffy said about sport in schools. The issue of substitute cover in schools has been a major one for us. We have suffered as well. Schools have been forced to pull out of competition because substitute cover is no longer available. This is probably a greater concern than introducing sport as an examination subject. Although having sport as an exam subject would be the ideal position, the priority and first port of call must be to allow children to play sport in school. Sport facilities should then be developed and at that point we could work towards having sport as an examination subject. In the immediate future, however, the issue of substitute cover must be at the top of the agenda.

On Deputy Upton's comments on disputes resolution, I am involved with Just Sport Ireland, JSI. The Deputy's proposal would definitely have benefits. Few disputes in camogie come to national attention and none, thankfully, has come before the courts. Just Sport Ireland is in its infancy. Ms O'Connor will be able to provide much greater detail on the cases JSI has dealt with to date. The organisation is finding its feet and should be considered as an option by many sporting organisations.

Overall, I reiterate the importance of supporting women's participation in sport. Deputy O'Mahony noted that women do not receive the same expenses as men in their codes. This is not an issue for women because they do not regard it as a necessity. Their main aim, particularly in camogie and ladies football, is to excel in their respective sport. They are proud and pleased to represent their counties, as is the case for women in other sports. The most important issue in terms of women in sport is to bridge the gap. Securing media coverage and exposure for women in sport is another key concern as is upping the profile of our female sports stars. This year has been a good year for women in sport. Olive Loughnane and Katie Taylor, two of the country's most successful athletes this year, are shining lights for other women participating in sport. I am glad the issue of women in sport is on the agenda and thank members for their support.

Mr. Philip Browne

The experience of rugby in Scotland and Wales has been a salutary lesson for all of us. For a long period in the 1970s and 1980s, sport was effectively not delivered in schools in these countries owing to industrial action. As a result, rugby is no longer a school sport of any consequence in either Wales or Scotland, as hard as it is to believe that. This, again, is an issue of turning the tap on or off. If one turns off the tap in terms of school sport, it will be hard to turn it on again, as the example of rugby in Scotland and Wales has shown.

Mr. Delaney gave me a dig in the ribs when the Chairman raised the issue of the Aviva Stadium. The position, as I explained last week when members kindly visited the stadium, is that five years ago we set out in a business plan how we proposed to develop Lansdowne Road Stadium. The plan was based on the circumstances prevailing at that time, in other words, we had the use of Croke Park while the new stadium was being developed. Times have changed and the issue has moved on. While one may view the issue differently with the benefit of hindsight, the fact is that we produced a business plan for building a stadium using €191 million of State funding, €106 million of funding provided by the IRFU and €78 million or €80 million in funding provided by the Football Association of Ireland. The shortfall is being made up through commercial contracts.

We simply cannot unwind a set of commercial contracts which have been in place for some time and have a long time to run. Our naming rights contract with Aviva runs for ten years, for instance. We are delighted to have Aviva on board and I would find it very difficult to go back to such a good sponsor, one which is making a major investment in Irish sport, particularly soccer and rugby through the stadium development, with a decision to move the event with most cachet, one which comes around every two years, elsewhere. That is, unfortunately, a commercial reality.

While the position may change in ten years when we may no longer have a naming rights sponsor, we currently have such a sponsor and must support it in the investment it has made. We must also honour a series of other long-term contracts. Mr. Duffy accepts and understands that we cannot walk away from these contracts.

I am sure Mr. Delaney shares the IRFU's view that the welcome given to us in Croke Park has been second to none. We have had nothing but co-operation and good experiences and some wonderful matches and events have taken place at the stadium. We will be sorry to lose the capacity to which members have referred but people within our constituency are looking forward to returning to Lansdowne Road. The rugby community has made an investment in a stadium and it wants to use it. While I understand the issues that have been raised and we will bear them in mind, it would be difficult to unravel a business plan and set of commercial contracts.

I thank Mr. Browne for his straightforward reply. I also thank Mr. Duffy for articulating the GAA's position on the matter. It would be fantastic if it were feasible to transfer the various corporate tickets to Croke Park and strike a deal. Our guests have outlined their position. I am reflecting the view of members and many others who believe such an outcome is achievable. Who knows what will happen in future, not necessarily ten years from now?

Perhaps the GAA will agree to use the name Aviva Croke Park for one day.

That could be the solution.

Mr. Páraic Duffy

We would need a big bucket of yellow paint.

Given that it took 100 years to have rugby and soccer played in Croke Park, it could be dangerous to go down that road.

Mr. John Delaney

Maybe we need a dispute resolution mechanism.

On the issue of exclusivity of usage, many of our facilities are used on a multi-sports basis. For example, the FAI facility in Kilmuckridge, County Wexford, is used for other sports. The FAI does not have difficulty with other sports being played on our pitches. We take a practical position on the issue. Deputy Ring made a point regarding all-weather facilities. This is probably the area where more common usage could be achieved. In smaller towns it does not make sense to have separate artificial pitches for gaelic, soccer and rugby teams. Some form of shared usage would be of benefit in such areas.

The FAI does not have any major problems with dispute resolution. Organisations which have in place good processes and procedures and in which people know the rules will always do reasonably well. In recent years, the FAI has largely achieved this and has not had many disputes come before the courts. We have been very tidy in that area.

Sport can be used to help education and there is considerable linkage in this area. Primary schools have many more female than male teachers, whereas in our time we would have been taught to play hurling, football or soccer by a Christian Brother or whatever. The FAI and Irish Sports Council introduced a programme, known as Buntús, to teach teachers how to teach children to play soccer. It has been a fantastic success and has worked a treat.

We recently launched a sports and education programme with Mr. Trappatoni in Carlow Institute of Technology. FÁS, which has been taking considerable stick recently, has been very good to the FAI in terms of placing kids who have left school in employment by mixing education and soccer. Most of the kids who have completed the relevant courses have subsequently secured full-time employment.

Deputy Ring is correct to describe as scandalous the fact that some of the best sports facilities are closed at optimal times, that is, throughout the summer, Christmas and Easter holidays, at weekends and at night when schools are closed. The FAI has raised this issue on many occasions. It is a scandal and does not make sense that the best sports facilities are not available to sporting bodies outside school hours. When schools are on holiday during the summer kids could use these facilities, particularly in urban areas.

The education cutbacks have had a major effect on the FAI. I have received large deputations of teachers from schools which can no longer take teams to play in competitions. While the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, has given us a fair hearing, he is not in a position to do anything. He understands the problem but does not see any way of solving it at this juncture. This is a major problem because it means teams cannot play in competition.

On Deputy Upton's question on the draw for the World Cup play-offs, I will tell her whether Ireland had the worst draw in two or three weeks when the results are known. The manager, Mr. Trappatoni, believed the worst outcome would have been Russia. It is certainly easier for our fans to travel to France. It was wrong that Ireland was not seeded. The manner in which the decision was taken was also wrong. I do not know of any competition in the world where one does not know the rules at the outset. It was wrong to change the rules towards the end of the competition. The FAI made representations to FIFA on the issue.

Have the four countries affected made a combined representation?

Mr. John Delaney

The FAI acted separately but I am aware that one of the other teams also made representations. My experience of FIFA is simple; when it makes a decision it does not change its mind. The organisation's marketing and commercial people could not countenance the idea that Christiano Ronaldo may not have gone to South Africa if Portugal had drawn France in a play-off. The decision taken by FIFA was wrong and outrageous and the FAI made that point. It is no good that Sepp Blatter stated a couple days after the event that FIFA was wrong on the play-offs because the crime had been committed at that stage. All we can do now is win the games and prove to people that we will get to South Africa on more than merit. It is wrong that France and Russia were seeded twice, both in the group stages and at this recent stage. It should be noted, however, that the Irish team does better in recessions. I hope it is a good omen that it normally qualifies in a recession.

On sports capital grants, the FAI prioritised to the Department what we needed done in this regard. The sports capital grants have overhauled our sport. I had the pleasure of being in County Mayo with Deputies O'Mahony and Ring who will have seen some of the terrific facilities the sports capital programme has delivered all over the country. The FAI would like regional centres completed because many projects at the grassroots and regional levels have not been finished. Those projects which may be two thirds complete or whatever must be reinstated.

I did not give Mr. Browne an elbow in the ribs. As CEO, he should speak on behalf of the IRFU. I would not cut across him on matters of this nature and concur with what he said. While it would be great if we were able to use Croke Park for the bigger games, it is not practical to do so given the manner in which the funding models have been done. For instance, a catering contract has been awarded for a considerable period — up to 21 years — while the naming rights with Aviva are for ten years. We also have a large number of corporate box clients and premium ticket holders. It would not be practical to proceed as proposed at present but the position may change at some point.

The participation of girls in sport is a major issue. As the father of a twin boy and girl, aged seven, it is important to me that my daughter has the same opportunity to play sport as my son. I do not care what sport they play. It is important that as many girls as possible are active in sport.

The FAI is engaged in intercultural activities. Soccer is great because it is an international language. Romanians, Nigerians, Latvians, Lithuanians who have come to this country are interested in playing the sport and we have been strong in this area.

The FAI headquarters are in Abbotstown but it overlooks fields with cows because nothing else has been built on the campus. We need the proposed development to proceed. When the FAI moved out to Abbotstown we were promised a wonderful facility for 50 or 60 sports. We planned, through our emerging talent programme, to bring all our best young players to Abbotstown for training at weekends. We are virtually on our own on the campus. I gather that for as little as €100 million the development could be completed. It would also create 500 full-time jobs.

On a broader point, when the Government is considering cutbacks it must examine each case on the basis of what contributes to society. If €100 million was spent on developing the Abbotstown site, a developer would employ people, the State would receive PAYE, tax, VAT and other revenue and a large number of people would be employed full-time in the completed facility. I would lay money that the construction of the sports campus would stand up as a business case on its own merits.

In terms of costs for families, the new Aviva Stadium will have a family section and we are considering family schemes for summer camps next year, whereby price reductions will be provided for families who have more than one child participating in a camp.

It is a great idea to have the annual general meeting in different locations. One night in Matt Molloy's pub in Westport, I looked around and saw Giovanni Trapattoni, Marco Tardelli, Liam Brady, Packie Bonner, Don Givens, Ray Houghton and Paul McGrath. It was great that members of the public in Mayo could see these individuals. This year, the AGM was held in Monaghan and we will have it in Wexford next year. It is also planned to hold future AGMs in Clare, Donegal and Wicklow. It is important that national governing bodies move their annual general meetings around, as I understand is being done in the case of other sports.

Senator Buttimer asked a question about players' contracts. The FAI does not have any contracted players and, as such, anyone who works for us is an employee. Players come from England to our professional clubs.

While the McCarthy report may be correct in certain areas, it is wrong on sport. It is wrong to propose to remove sport from the Cabinet table and cut sports funding in a manner that would impact heavily on the community. As I and others have outlined, the proposed cuts would affect every town, village and family in the country. That is not good enough.

Mr. Pat Hickey

Deputy Michael Kitt is correct that we have in this country a renowned physiotherapist, Ger Hartmann, who is based in Limerick. The superstars of track and field come to him from all over the world for treatment. He has some difficulty because he is not qualified and the official organisations have a problem with dealing with him. Sonia O'Sullivan, a member of our council, has been going to him throughout her career and swears by him. He assists us during the preparation and at the Olympic Games and is a great guy. I thank the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform for permitting visas to be issued to foreign athletes to enter the country to receive treatment in Limerick.

Tourism at the London Olympic Games was raised. This is a major factor as it presents significant potential for tourism in Ireland. Tourism Ireland is working on the issue and will handle it very well.

I was delighted to hear Deputy Ring refer to taxpayers' money and volunteers. I appreciate his comments because I am a volunteer and I am not paid as president of the Olympic Council of Ireland. Many people are amazed to discover that I do not receive a cent of taxpayers' money. It means, however, that I can speak more openly than other people who receive assistance from the State. As Deputy Ring indicated, there is a view creeping into Irish sport that unless someone is paid he or she is not professional. There are many unpaid volunteers throughout the country, as the representatives of other sports will agree. The GAA, in particular, has excellent volunteers.

Mr. Delaney covered the issue of Abbotstown. The Olympic Council of Ireland did not seek a stadium at Abbotstown but a centre of excellence which would be permanently available for Olympic sport. Having seen Romania's new centre of excellence during a visit to that country two weeks ago, I am ashamed that Ireland is in the Dark Ages relative to what is available in Romania.

I agree with Mr. Delaney on the McCarthy report. Sport must not be removed from the Cabinet table and responsibility for it must not be transferred to a junior Ministry. It was a great bonus to have sport dealt with at senior ministerial level because if one is not at the table when the cards are dealt, one will not get a good hand.

On dispute resolution, the Olympic movement has a very good scheme in place, the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne. Many of our athletes have been before the court. It works extremely well and keeps us out of the courts.

Deputy Creed, who has left the meeting, referred to the national lottery. When the lottery was established by Deputy Donal Creed of the Fine Gael Party it had a phenomenal impact. Sport and art were to receive 85% of the proceeds but within two years, the figure was reduced to less than 2%. Where are we now?

Mr. Matt English

As many of the issues have been covered, I will be brief. On the issue of sharing sports facilities, the Special Olympics is completely dependent on sharing facilities. I am pleased and appreciate that we are pushing an open door with the owners of all the facilities. All 447 clubs are using various facilities around the country.

I share Ms O'Connor's views on Just Sport Ireland. Fortunately, the Special Olympics does not have many disputes, although we have some peculiarities in the sense that we are not an elitist sport, work on the basis of divisioning and have 15% honest effort rules. On the few occasions that issues have arisen, Just Sport Ireland has been fantastic in helping us to solve them.

Deputy Michael Kitt raised town twinning. That was a unique opportunity in 2003. Some 177 countries were matched with different Irish towns around 32 counties and this left a fantastic legacy. Individuals from the countries in question still visit the towns and bring Olympic athletes with them. Visits are made in both directions. This is terrific, I hear about it all the time.

One of the key benefits is the rise in the number of volunteers involved in the committees. People keep volunteering and we have 22,000 registered, some of whom are involved in running the clubs. Last year, we had over 200 different competition events. Many of the host town committees are not only helping us to raise funds at events but also helping to run clubs, events and competitions as they occur. We are funded in the order of 30% through the Irish Sports Council.

I feel strongly about the schools issue. I have two teenage sons in secondary school, one aged 15 and the other aged 16. There is but one double class in their whole school week dedicated to sport. Two years ago, my sons were playing for various teams that trained regularly but today there is no training. When the competitions start, the teams go on the day to participate. I am thankful my sons are involved with athletics, golf, soccer and GAA clubs, thus allowing them to engage in sport outside school hours. This is because my family has always loved sport. However, those who do not have a tradition of sport in their families will lose out on opportunities if sport is not facilitated in school. This is a considerable issue.

We did not touch much today on AstroTurf pitches. I play football twice per week late in the evenings. Older fellows like me talk a lot about the youth playing football but we note people in their 30s, 40s and 50s are playing on AstroTurf pitches. They are great facilities to have. I play for a rugby club on a Tuesday night and a GAA club on a Friday night. One facility would be enough in my town because the two facilities are under-utilised. Mistakes may have been made with regard to capital investment across the country but that is no reason to turn off the tap. We must consider our approach critically but we must continue to invest because there are many places where investment is still required.

Mr. Liam Harbison

I do not think Mr. English looks that old; he looks very fit for his age.

My organisation is a select group representing 90 sports bodies. We could have filled all the seats in this room with the heads of various organisations, be they from Athletics Ireland, Swim Ireland or local sports partnerships. We represent the whole sporting community.

Deputy Upton referred to dispute resolution. Just Sport Ireland is a wonderful initiative, to which we signed up only this year. Some preparatory work must be done on the rules and memorandum and articles of association of an organisation before they can be adopted. Over the next two years, many more organisations will come on stream and one will find many of the issues that arise will not end up in the papers. That disputes are raised in sport shows how important sport is to society. It raises passions and emotions.

Deputy Michael Kitt touched on pre-games training facilities. I concur with what Mr. Pat Hickey said. Last week I visited a centre in the Netherlands where the international cerebral palsy soccer championships were taking place. I noted we are in the ha'penny place compared with what is available around the world. I hate to admit that our organisation will be doing our final pre-games training in Portugal. The Irish Paralympic Games team will train in Portugal in the build-up to London 2012. We must do so because we do not feel we can bring all the sports together in the critical period. Having said that, there are some good individual facilities in Ireland, such as those in the University of Limerick and the National Aquatic Centre. We are playing our part to try to attract Paralympic Games committees abroad to use the Irish facilities.

I agree fully with Deputy Ring with regard to the appeal in respect of families. It is critical. There is a view that sport is an easy target for cuts by comparison with social welfare, health and education. However, if sport is affected, the very fabric of the family is affected. While sport is an easy target, disability sport is a softer one. There are fewer votes in the disability sporting community than in the general sporting community.

In some cases, cutting funding takes away from providing space for mammy and daddy while their young child with a disability takes part in a sport under the guidance of a coach or tutor. It is critical that the funding not be cut.

The McCarthy report makes a very sweeping statement that there should be a cut of €17.5 million in the budget of the Irish Sports Council. It makes no reference to the fact that this is 33% of the existing budget. As I stated in my submission, such a cut will decimate the programmes of the vast majority of sports bodies we are representing today. The funding must be protected.

This meeting is unprecedented. I thank the delegates, who comprise an outstanding group of people. I thank them for attending to deliver their message. Members are not only expressing their own views but also those of the many people they represent throughout the country. We represent a considerable number and there could have been more members in attendance today. However, there was a good turnout and we have been talking for two and a half hours, which shows this is an important issue and that there is interest among members.

On behalf of the committee, I will be delivering to the Taoiseach and all the Ministers mentioned by the delegation the very strong message that it is important to preserve funding for sport. We, as with the delegates, disagree with an bord snip nua on sports funding. It is vital for all the reasons the delegates outlined. I thank the members of the press who attended for the past two and a half hours. We will do our work from here on.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.10 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 18 November 2009.
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