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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 16 Dec 2009

League of Ireland: Discussion with Football Association of Ireland.

I welcome the delegates from the Football Association of Ireland, FAI: Mr. John Delaney, chief executive; Mr. Eamon Naughton, chairman of the national league executive committee; Mr. Fran Gavin, director of the League of Ireland; Mr. Padraig Smith, internal compliance officer; Mr. Richard Fahy, director of club licensing; and Mr. Noel Mooney, head of league marketing and promotion.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We are all extremely disappointed with the result of the recent match between Ireland and France. I acknowledge the correspondence from the FAI thanking us for writing, on Senator Buttimer's initiative, to the president of FIFA.

Our primary focus today is on developing the Irish soccer league and nurturing the many clubs, amateur and semi-professional. Sport is a wonderful way of generating national pride and fostering community participation. We had a very good meeting on this recently when the delegates were present with representatives of other sports bodies. Sport provides enjoyment to the young and old. This would not be possible without the enthusiastic commitment of the thousands of volunteers who work ceaselessly around the country, giving up their weekends and many other days in the week to contribute to their local communities. All public representatives have acknowledged time and again the many volunteers in the FAI who are working throughout the country. I am not detracting from the work of the paid officials, who also have an important role. I pay special tribute to the volunteers of all sports organisations.

I thank the delegation for attending. I ask Mr. John Delaney to make his presentation, after which we will hear questions and comments from the members.

Mr. John Delaney

I thank the joint committee for its recent support. We were before the committee five or six weeks ago talking about the funding of sport. The correspondence of the committee with various Ministers and the Taoiseach has resulted in the retention of the Ministry and a reduction of only 4% in the funding of the Irish Sports Council. On behalf of everybody involved in sport, I thank the committee for its help in this regard. I also thank it for its correspondence with the president of FIFA. The cross-party support we received, including from this committee, was great in terms of expressing our disappointment at the result of the game between Ireland and France. Not only were those in football disappointed, everybody else was also.

I will now make my presentation, which will be followed by that of Mr. Richard Fahy, director of club licensing. He will give a short presentation on the improvement in the infrastructure of the League of Ireland in recent years.

At the end of the 2004 season, League of Ireland clubs were in serious difficulty and the future of League of Ireland football was hanging in the balance. The FAI and the clubs invited Genesis Consulting Ltd. to conduct a review. The ensuing white paper called for radical action, the most significant proposal being a merger between the league clubs and the FAI to facilitate a stricter regulatory environment in which clubs would operate.

It was always envisaged that this would be a five-year process, particularly in terms of cleaning up the financial performance of some clubs, because this type of change would require a significant cultural shift. Midway through this five-year merger agreement, annual club losses have been reduced to a four-year low of €2.7 million from a high of €6.9 million. Clubs in Ireland are not unique in facing financial difficulties. In recent times, some high-profile cases of well-known clubs that have had significant financial problems include those of Portsmouth FC, Valencia CF and Leeds United.

The FAI took the strategic decision to merge with the League of Ireland for a five-year period because a strong and vibrant senior game is for the good of the sport. At senior level, the League of Ireland represents an important part of the development pathway for players.

Today the FAI cross-subsidises League of Ireland competitions with revenue raised from leveraging sponsorship linked to the senior international team — for example, from Eircom — and associated television deals. RTE would have given an extra €4 million to the FAI but instead we created a Monday night soccer programme showing highlights and live matches. Those are a few examples of how we leverage sponsorship linked with the senior international team to assist the League of Ireland in terms of sponsorship and coverage on national television.

Let me refer to the Genesis white paper of 2005, the merger in 2006 and the League of Ireland review of 2009. The analysis conducted by Genesis in 2005 resulted in the following conclusion: " ... against all major performance indicators the league is under-performing". Genesis showed that this very important part of our game was failing according to the performance indicators used to measure success in a football context. Most of the clubs were deemed by Genesis to be unstable financially, with players' costs estimated to be in excess of 80% of turnover. One does not have to be an accountant to figure out that spending 80% of turnover on wages causes difficulties.

The management and administration of clubs was assessed as unprofessional, with little evidence of longer-term business strategies, marketing spend or community programming. Prize money for 2005 was a paltry €18,000 for the winner of the top division. Facilities in some clubs were deemed to be “inadequate and outdated” while attendances, linked to poor quality facilities, were deemed to be “too low to provide sufficient income for sustained growth”. Our UEFA European co-efficient was 40th of 52 member associations for the 2006 season.

With regard to the role of the national league, the league was deemed to be operating “in isolation” and “dislocated” from the rest of football. As identified by Genesis, football development in Ireland needs “the league to be the top of an integrated structure for the domestic game”. It was against this backdrop that the FAI and the league clubs engaged in merger discussions. At the time of the merger, the FAI made clear that significant change was vital within the area of club governance and set about addressing this by incorporating UEFA best practice into its licensing requirements. When the clubs merged with the FAI in late 2006, the FAI committed to bringing about ten key changes. A status check of those actions has been circulated.

We committed to a mid-term review with the clubs halfway through the merger. It was conducted independently and the survey findings were audited independently by Grant Thornton. It is very much at arm's length and it is health checked. The first recommendation was to merge fully with the FAI, the second was to change the management structure running the league, and the third was to revamp league structures. These tasks have been completed.

The creation of mandatory participation agreements and the introduction of wage controls were completed. Other objectives which are still in progress included the prioritisation of investment in facilities development, a step change in approach to marketing, the improvement of club administration, the creation of clear development structures and the investment in community links. During such changes there would be pain and some casualties as clubs and their directors adjusted to a more regulated environment.

The FAI has invested considerable resources in the change programme between 2007 and 2009. Many clubs have adjusted quickly to the changed governance environment, managing their businesses well off the pitch and playing a positive role in the sport.

However, a minority of clubs have failed to adjust to the new regulatory environment and have experienced significant financial difficulties. Overall, however, the level of losses has been reduced from their highest level of €6.9 million to €2.7 million in 2008. Despite continuing challenges, not least of which is the deteriorating economic environment, many of the underlying indicators are now pointing in the right direction.

Notwithstanding the progress made, there is no underestimating the damage that is done each time a club is a party to legal proceedings involving Revenue or any other creditor. Club mismanagement of finances, as exemplified by high profile cases such as this season's disappointing incidents in Cork City FC, undermines the integrity of the competitions, weakens the credibility of the regulatory processes and reflects poorly on the sport overall. Each participant club must appreciate the impact of mismanagement where it fails to meet its obligations not only on its own club's stakeholders but also on the overall image of the League of Ireland.

The FAI's commitment to continuing to insist on stringent governance arrangements as laid out in the FAI's participation agreement is evidenced by the difficult but necessary decision to terminate its contract with Derry City FC in 2009.

An outline of the football landscape is important to provide a context for the success of many League of Ireland clubs in continuing to compete and to understand some of the challenges faced by clubs in terms of the industry in which they operate.

Clubs competing in the League of Ireland must operate in a business-like manner to ensure revenue is generated, creditors are paid, debts managed and so on. In most businesses, operating in this fashion allows the company to measure its success on the level of profit generated and dividends issued to shareholders.

Football, however, is different and the metrics of success are also different. The UEFA European club football landscape benchmarking report 2009 stated, "Generally the raison d’être [of football clubs] approximates to being as successful on the pitch as possible while ensuring the continued existence of the club”. It is clear directors and decision-makers in some clubs have made poor financial decisions, while others have struggled to overcome unforeseen circumstances such as a major sponsor going into liquidation mid-season. It is disappointing that such publicity is generated by a small number of clubs who find themselves in difficulty. The media coverage brought to bear on difficulties encountered by a minority of league clubs far outweighs the recognition of positive results generated by clubs.

Notwithstanding the fact that it is the nature of media coverage to focus on the negative rather than the positive, the improvements brought about by many clubs in an increasingly difficult business environment should be acknowledged. In addition, it is important the scale of the business is put in its correct context. We are grouped by UEFA with the following leagues as our peers because of the financial size of the League of Ireland clubs: Azerbaijan; Bosnia and Herzegovina; Hungary; Iceland; Latvia; Lithuania; Luxembourg and Northern Ireland.

On the European stage our clubs have performed exceptionally well since 2005. Wins over teams from Russia, Sweden and Finland, added to regular wins in the first round of the European competitions against clubs from leagues with similar UEFA rankings, has improved our European co-efficient from 40th in 2006 to 29th for the 2010-11 competitions.

The official 2009-10 table, circulated to the committee, illustrates on-pitch success in moving 11 places, making Ireland the best performer among its UEFA peer group. European success has returned increased prize money to League of Ireland clubs and is a result of the change of playing season from winter to summer, a move to full-time football by several clubs, investment in coaching education and improved playing facilities.

The most up-to-date figures taken directly from the 2008 audited financial statements, provided by clubs as part of their licensing obligations, show turnover of €27 million compared with €15 million in 2006. The turnover in the premier division stood at €22 million compared with €11 million in 2006. Now, premier division player salary costs as a percentage of relevant income are 54% as opposed to 86% in 2006. Players' salaries are dropping; this is the key to resolving the financial issues of the clubs. In the first division, player salary costs as a percentage of relevant income stand at 34% compared with 56% in 2006.

As a result of these developments, there is a 17% reduction in salary costs to total income ratio, which is the second best reduction in Europe of the 53 member associations. Further reductions are expected in the coming season as 90% of players are out of contract at the end of the 2009 season. This provides a terrific window for clubs to get their cost base of wages into place.

Clubs' expenditure is primarily driven by salary costs. Since the introduction of the salary cost protocol, total salaries as a percentage of total income has decreased from a European-wide high of 96% in 2006. We were the worst in Europe in 2006. Driving these costs down has been a particular emphasis of the FAI's financial regulation regime and so player salary costs expressed as a percentage of relevant income stands at 54% in 2008. The figures presented are a sample of those compiled for the 2010 financial review to be published in the first quarter next year. At the end of 2009 season, nearly 90% of players are out of contract, which presents a further opportunity for clubs to reduce their costs in line with projected income.

The lack of comparative expenditure in areas such as youth development, infrastructure, advertising, marketing and promotions represents an imbalance in investment priorities which should be addressed by each club's leadership.

One of the most notable outputs of the merger is the 118% increase in League of Ireland prize money since 2005. This level of funding has formed part of the overall increases in league income in the review period. Corporate and private sponsorship is the single largest area of income for League of Ireland clubs. The terms of the salary cost protocol ensure directors, benefactors and investors who wish to cover the cost of expenditure can do so only by providing income in the form of corporate and private sponsorship. This is non-refundable and once it goes into clubs it cannot be taken out under the terms of the protocol.

This effectively means that club directors and owners are keeping the clubs afloat from a financial perspective. These are the same directors and owners who authorise the budget within the clubs' financial budgeting process. It is not ideal that directors have to fund clubs but at least if they put their money in, they do not have recourse to taking the money out.

The most significant aspect of the merger was the undertaking by the FAI to impose tighter regulatory controls. The impact of those controls could be properly assessed in 2008. Total losses in 2008 are down to a four-year low of €2.7 million from €6.9 million. Imposing the salary cost protocol, SCP, has helped to reduce overall losses. It was common practice here, and indeed still is across Europe, for directors, benefactors and investors to put money into clubs in the form of soft interest-free loans with recourse to cover losses. This practice is not allowed under the FAI's financial regulations. Wage controls in the form of the SCPs have the benefit of increasing the funds available to the clubs for other priorities such as administration, youth development, infrastructure investment and community activities, and improving the balance sheet position.

In terms of financial regulation, while recognising the complexity of the issue, with each case likely to have unique prevailing circumstances, an additional range of options will be available to the FAI and the club licensing processes to further strengthen regulatory powers from 2010.

The improvement in the financial management practices in clubs must be acknowledged. A number of clubs have completely overhauled their financial controls and reporting has improved. This is to be welcomed. There are clear examples, such as Shamrock Rovers, Sporting Fingal and UCD, to name just a few. In recognition of the FAI's work in this area, UEFA has invited the FAI's internal compliance officer, Padraig Smith, who is with me, to join its club licensing working group as it looks to improve the effectiveness of financial regulations and controls across European and domestic competitions. Indeed, UEFA's CEO at the time, David Taylor, is on public record as commending the FAI's work on good governance, especially in the area of financial regulations and commending its success in running licensing across each of the national league divisions. This work is held up as a benchmark for other member associations, as currently Ireland is among only 20 of the 53 members which license all their national league clubs. It is up to the national association whether to adjust the licence for teams that will play in Europe or in premier divisions. We license all our clubs.

Significant progress has been made in professionalising the administration or organisation of League of Ireland clubs. This has been achieved in a number of ways. For example, the enforcement of criteria within the club licensing process requires clubs to retain personnel with relevant and appropriate qualifications in specified functions in order to secure their licence. In addition, a training and education programme for key personnel such as event controllers, groundsmen, match stewards, financial officers, media officers, etc., is facilitated by the FAI.

In terms of technical development under the stewardship of our technical director, Packie Bonner, there is a strong link in business between the achievement of qualifications and success. The link in football is equally demonstrable. Good players are the result of good coaches and good coaches are the result of a good coach education system. In terms of the qualifications of managers and coaches working within the league, significant progress has been made in the past three seasons. This has been as a result of the FAI's drive to increase the quality and quantity of coaches through the implementation of its technical development plan. Today we have 23,000 coaches countrywide all the way through to pro-licence level, the highest possible European qualification, and the 2,600 clubs that play under our jurisdiction. The strict enforcement of club licences requires those working as premier division managers to achieve a pro-licence by the 2011 season. The progress in this area is highlighted by contrasting the current figures with the 2004 season, when 11 of the 22 managers operating within the League of Ireland had no coaching qualifications whatsoever. In 2009, 12 had the pro-licence, one had the youth certificate and one a recognition of competence, which demonstrates the extent of the improvement in that area.

In terms of communications and marketing, the Genesis white paper was scathing of sponsorship, attendances and marketing in its review conducted in 2005-06 and investments in this area have been a key part of the FAI's change programme. Three years into that change programme a number of successes in a very competitive market are noteworthy. Attendances at premier division matches are up over 30% since the merger in 2007. These figures are being independently audited by Grant Thornton.

The FAI has won a number of national awards for its marketing of the league including the Irish Direct Marketing Association's best integrated campaign and best responsive broadcast. A customer service programme has been rolled out in line with best practice across leading European leagues. The League of Ireland brand has been aligned with large brands such as the National Dairy Council and An Post, which boosts national awareness and supports community-based campaigns. The League of Ireland website is highly regarded, securing an average 28,000 hits per month — and there is a one-hour prime-time show on RTE every Monday night to showcase League of Ireland soccer.

The FAI is investing considerable resources in encouraging League of Ireland clubs to focus still further on the communities they serve. Under our club promotions officers, CPO, programme, the FAI co-funds full-time CPOs with premier licence holders — 15 in 2009 — to build links with local schools, underage clubs and community groups using initiatives such as our "Fans of the Future", healthy eating campaigns, "Show Racism the Red Card", anti-smoking and road safety messages. Visits to schools and community groups by CPOs are supported by players' visits and invitations to attend matches.

The FAI's work with clubs on this community development strategy is designed to build interest, awareness and attendances. This is obviously a long-term project but early successes have been encouraging and feedback from key stakeholders engaged with the clubs in their efforts has been very positive. Some simple examples of using football as an effective vehicle for community-focused initiatives include the following: last year, Shamrock Rovers won an award for best community business in the South Dublin Chamber of Commerce awards; last month, Finn Harps's CPO programme won an award in Donegal for its seat-belt awareness campaign on school buses; UEFA has commended the FAI's "Show Racism the Red Card" campaign, which saw more than 70,000 Irish children receive educational literature on anti-racism and player visits to reinforce the anti-racism message; and the national healthy eating campaign in conjunction with the National Dairy Council promotes a school milk scheme in around 500 schools, many of them already in receipt of free football equipment to encourage healthy physical activity from a young age.

As evidenced by our partnerships with local authorities in co-funding more than 40 development officer positions, football is recognised as enormously effective in generating social capital. Football-related initiatives have proven their value in projects tackling childhood obesity, alcohol and other substance abuse and getting girls active in sport. Football as a sport has played its part in providing opportunities for children to enjoy themselves on the playing fields rather than at their playstations.

Fingal County Council recognised the power of football in promoting local identity by working with local football agencies to establish a national league club called Sporting Fingal in 2008. The success of this project means that the community can express pride in its identity by associating with the football club while local schools and community groups are energised by the club's various initiatives. I do not have to remind the committee that Sporting Fingal won the FAI senior cup last month. It is only two years old but is already competing at European competition level. This is largely to the credit of Mr. David O’Connor who is a superb county manager, and his team.

In a similar vein, Shamrock Rovers has become an anchor tenant at the new Tallaght Stadium and enjoys enormous support from the local community. Just as important, South Dublin County Council has recognised and supported the potential of the club by co-operating with its community animation activities.

In tandem with these types of partnerships, local authorities continue to work closely with League of Ireland clubs to improve facilities. Improvements in facilities have brought the added benefits of introducing special events to areas, with the hosting of underage internationals at venues such as the Regional Sports Centre in Waterford, home of Waterford United, a club well known to me, I can assure the committee. I can assure Deputy Ring that we shall get one in Mayo yet.

In summary, the FAI has largely achieved what it set out to do at the beginning of 2007 in terms of changing the governance structure, professionalising the administrative structure supporting the League of Ireland and reshaping the competition structure to allow a clear pathway for those seeking to perform at the highest level of the domestic game — players, managers, coaches and clubs.

In recognising the progress made by clubs in areas ranging from facilities to the strengthening of administrative functioning, the actions of a minority of clubs continue to publicly undermine the impact of this progress. The introduction of financial officers at some clubs is a significant development and the FAI will continue to support their work to continue to strengthen this aspect of each club's performance. The ability of clubs to dictate the salary market in the 2009 off-season — around 90% of players are out of contract — is an opportunity for each club to take the necessary financial measures, which the FAI will monitor closely, in the interests of encouraging a real and required correction to expenditure levels at some clubs.

The improvement in our UEFA co-efficient, down from 40 to 29, the improving standards of facilities, the improvements in events management and control, the work of the CPOs in generating excitement within schools and local communities about the League of Ireland and the continuing success of partnerships with local authorities are all welcome developments. The senior game must be the benchmark for all others in term of administrative excellence, financial management, commitment to promoting the sport, involvement in and support for all of the association's initiatives and so on.

While some League of Ireland clubs have failed to play their part in setting and maintaining those standards, the majority are contributing to the positive results and improving trends have been reported. These achievements should be acknowledged in the context of a very challenging economic environment and they will be the basis for the clubs to take advantage of future upturns in the economy. Similarly, the more stringent regulatory environment in which our clubs operate means many League of Ireland clubs will be in a very strong position to maximise any competitive advantage when corrections brought on by European football governance conditions take effect in the market.

I would like to invite Mr. Richard Fahy to make a presentation.

Mr. Richard Fahy

I work as the director of club licensing and also in facility development, so I have two strings to my bow. The objective of club licensing is the further promotion and continuous improvement of the standard of all aspects of football, whether it is on the field or off the field. One of the areas on which we focus from a licensing perspective is infrastructure. The objective of the infrastructure criteria in the manual is to promote the adaptation of club sporting infrastructure in order to provide safe, secure, well equipped and well managed facilities. These will lead to improvements in health and safety and comfort for all the stakeholders involved in our game, including players, officials, the media, spectators, club staff and volunteers.

When the criteria for club licensing was developed, it was recognised that there was a large gap between those criteria and the reality at clubs. It was clear that significant investment was required. We met the clubs and asked them to put together a five year club infrastructure development plan which had a clear implementation timetable and costings. This had to attain the approval of the association and it formed the basis for FAI funding and sports capital grant funding and investment. These club infrastructure development plans are revised and updated annually.

I will show slides of a few projects that we have completed in recent times. The first slide shows the old stadium of Athlone Town, and this is quite typical of what one would find in League of Ireland grounds prior to the development of club licensing. There were facilities that were poorly equipped for spectators, unsafe in some cases and with no investment for 30 or 40 years in other cases. The next two slides show Athlone Town's new stadium so committee members can see the massive improvement that has been made at the club.

Last year, Turner's Cross in Cork became Ireland's first fully covered, all-seated stadium. The slide shows the Shed End, which some members may recognise. The next slide shows the brand new stand completed at the Waterford RSC about 18 months ago, in partnership between the FAI and Waterford City Council. The next slide is a picture of the Belfield Bowl at UCD, which is a dual use facility for the university's soccer and rugby teams. Terryland Park in Galway is owned by the Galway League, rather than Galway United. It is utilised around 100 times per year by various groups, such as Galway United, Mervue United or by the local league, colleges and schools finals.

The next slide again highlights the standards that were prevalent in the League of Ireland prior to the development of licensing. It shows one of the dugouts at Drogheda United's ground, and it is symptomatic of the game back then, but the next slide shows the huge improvement in the dug out now and in the standards for player facilities.

The last slide is a picture of Tallaght Stadium, which is one of the most exciting projects to happen to the League of Ireland for many years, not just as a home for Shamrock Rovers, but as a facility that can be used by the FAI for many of our underage international matches. Last year, the FAI hosted over 200 international games at all different levels, from under 15 right up to the senior teams for males and females, as well as for the 13 disability groups with whom we work. These facilities are really important for those games. Through the licensing process and through the work we have done with the league clubs and the owners of the grounds, and working closely with the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, we have set about developing these facilities.

There have been significant improvements in spectator comfort. There have been significant improvements in health and safety at our grounds. Our engineering company, Moylan Consulting Engineers, is currently visiting all the League of Ireland clubs to carry out infrastructure audits and health and safety audits around the country. The safe holding capacity at League of Ireland clubs has increased by 38% since 2004, from 64,523 to 89,460 by the end of 2009, which is a massive improvement.

I thank the delegation for their presentations. Before I go to committee members for questions, I have one question. We are spoiled for choice in Ireland with regard to sports. Over the next ten to 20 years, do the witnesses see a situation emerging where we have to examine the amalgamation of clubs or an all island approach to soccer in this country? I was very much involved with Shamrock Rovers when it tried to stay in Glenmalure and it scandalously had to move from there. Thanks to the people power that stayed with them, their stadium has been one of the great success stories. The other success story has been that of Sporting Fingal, which again was a bottom up development, and I acknowledge the tremendous work that is going ahead on the ground.

One might be concerned with the fact that the only place our best players can go is across the water to England. It is great when it happens, but is there a level we could attain to improve the opportunities for people who play the game here? The emergence of the provinces has been great for rugby, because the success has filtered from the grassroots to the national level, where we now are possibly the best in the world. I get a sense that these are issues that will have to be addressed at some stage in the future, especially the idea of an all Ireland approach between the FAI and the IFA. That might be too radical, but it is an idea that we should never ignore.

I thank Mr. Delaney and his colleagues for giving us a picture of what it was like and what it is like now. I commiserate with them on their recent result. I know the deep sense of unfairness they felt, but I congratulate them on the performance. It lifted the country and although I know the witnesses are not into moral victories maybe the success that will eventually come will be all the sweeter as a result of having to move on and overcome the deep sense of unfairness that we all felt on that night.

As somebody involved in sport but looking in at this from the outside, I congratulate the FAI on the improvement in facilities at Tallaght, Cork and so on. I was flabbergasted when Deputy Ring and I were trying to keep up with them around Mayo a few years ago. I mean this in the sense of the facilities the FAI has produced in every corner of this country for football and with regard to the sense of volunteerism out there which allowed this to happen. Obviously, this was with the support of the sports capital grants, which is an issue for another day.

We were all glad to see lower cuts than we thought there might have been, although maybe that shows how conditioned we are to the current situation. Hopefully, this will change in future years when conditions are improved. The impression the ordinary punter has, particularly outside League of Ireland soccer, is that the financial situation of the clubs is disastrous. While I am not saying this is the case, that is the impression that exists. To take the case of Shelbourne a couple of years ago, the club was within an ace of getting to the group stages of the European cup and then almost went into liquidation the following year, and Drogheda and Cork both won the league. In other words, it was not the clubs on the periphery that were getting into trouble but those that were winning.

What is the solution in this regard? The witnesses might inform me how many League of Ireland clubs are full-time professional at present. Is there a need for more part-time players? The standard has definitely increased. Now, when we see teams coming forward to play in Europe, we are not looking at a 5-0 defeat but at hoping to hold the game away and hoping to get a goal at home that will make a difference to go on to the next level. That is all there. Is it that the clubs cannot sustain the full-time professional level that is in place? Is it that the FAI competitions are now running through the summer and perhaps do not attract crowds as much as during the winter, when the FAI would have got a lot of support from people in other sports, as spectators at least?

It appears that the FAI has taken one or two steps forward but the financial situation is dragging it down. As the supervisory body, I know the FAI is making great efforts. Is it because its regulatory system has improved so that situations are coming to the fore which were swept under the mat previously? For example, to take the Derry situation this year in regard to the double contracts for players, if Derry had gone on to win the league or the cup, and drew in the finance, would this situation never have come to light? Is there still an issue that needs to be addressed?

The chairman made the point that the progression for a player in the League of Ireland is to the Premier League across the water. It is vital that a healthy, financially successful League of Ireland exists. The percentages are against many players making it across the water in any case. It is ironic that the FAI has the facilities and the standards but the financial situation is a problem. From week to week, one is listening and wondering what club will next head into liquidation or be in trouble. The FAI has examined the position from 2004 to the present. Looking forward, can any of the solutions such as summer football or fewer full-time players provide a solution to give it the financial stability that is vital? Only last week, the young player, Seamus Coleman, who formerly played for Sligo Rovers was playing for Everton. While I do not remember him playing for Sligo Rovers, I was proud to see him taking on one of the top teams, perhaps Manchester United, and playing so well.

I thank Mr. Delaney and his colleagues for the presentation. I must acknowledge the great developments that have taken place. It is great to look at the profile on Tallaght Stadium, for example, and to welcome that, and the other developments around the country are also very much to be welcomed in terms of the standards and facilities that are available. Like the other two speakers, I have several key questions concerning the future of the League of Ireland in terms of the management of its finances.

I appreciate all the background information we have been given today. However, there have been a number of high-profile incidents with a number of clubs that have been quite damaging, as I am sure the witnesses will agree, in terms of the profile for soccer in the country. How can this be contained? What practical steps can the FAI put in place to ensure we do not have more debacles such as those involving Derry City, Cork City and Drogheda United? This has generated very negative reaction, understandably so. The key questions are whether the league can afford full-time professionals and what else can be put in place?

Moving on from that, in terms of our national team, we harvest our players by sending them to the Premier League in the UK and then bringing them back. What scope have we for a centre of excellence for youth, for example. Mr. Delaney mentioned a number of actions and initiatives the FAI has taken with young people in schools and so on. How is it that we cannot compete? I know I will hear all about size and the rest of it, but young Irish players at age 14 and 15 are still going to England. Why is it that we cannot develop these young players here, keep them here, give them the facilities and create our own best national team from that pool of talent. Clearly, we have the talent.

With regard to Tallaght Stadium and other stadia, for the future, do the witnesses agree that we must have stadia which are multi-functional and multi-purpose in terms of team sports? From a national point of view, it makes little sense that the State would invest a huge amount of money in a stadium that is exclusively available to one sport. We have had this discussion before but it is an important one.

The issue of child protection has been high profile in recent times. In regard to bringing along young players at ages 11, 12 and 13, what child protection procedures has the FAI in place, and what actions and initiatives has it taken to ensure that employees and volunteers working on its behalf with young children are vetted by the Garda, for example? This is a very important matter that has not really been part of today's debate. The FAI does much work with the local authorities and many young children are involved. It is hugely important that the facilities and provisions are in place to make sure that absolutely everything is taken care of in this regard.

I welcome Mr. Delaney and the delegation and congratulate them on all of their work and all of the fantastic volunteers the FAI has throughout the country. As a Fingal man, it was a great pleasure for me to be at Tallaght Stadium a few weeks ago to see Sporting Fingal bring the cup back and to win promotion to the premier division. I hope we get a good draw for the European competitions — Paris might not be too bad. It was a great day and the entire basis on which Sporting Fingal came about is the way forward.

I refer to involving the local authority, I commend Fingal County Council on its involvement, but equally for bringing in good, solid sponsors. Hopefully the companies concerned will be able to stay around because they are the key to the future. I note problems have been experienced with Shelbourne, Cork City and Derry City. I commend Mr. Delaney on the manner in which he handled the issue regarding Derry City. While he took a great deal of stick from the Derry end initially, ultimately he was proven to be correct and he made the correct decisions. As for having two sets of accounts in any walk of life, the Committee of Public Accounts deals with many issues and I would hate to think it might drag Derry City, Sporting Fingal or others before it at a future date. In common with other speakers, I believe the regulation issue is important. I seek confirmation from the FAI that the aforementioned discrepancies were uncovered as much through its own regulations as by anything else. On the timing of the games, one hears arguments that given the relatively small attendances, the league should revert to winter games. Originally, I considered that playing the game in the summer would be better and would bring about a better quality of football. However, given the problems with Sky Television, the Premier League and so on, is consideration being given to changing the timing?

Many years ago, the League of Ireland used to play the Irish League and while it might not necessarily be a huge money-spinner in respect of crowds, I refer to the status a player receives from representative football. I remember that in my early playing days, it was north Dublin versus south Dublin and as a northsider it was a big deal for me to play on a representative north side Dublin team and to try to beat our counterparts from the south side. In an effort to promote the game for those younger players who stay at home, the FAI might secure a sponsor that would put up a prize, such as a cup or a holiday, to engender a little competition between the North and the South, as both leagues would benefit. I do not disagree with the Chairman's remarks that we might have an all-Ireland competition at some future date. However, when building on the youth and trying to maintain them in a home base, I sincerely hope, for instance, that all the great clubs around Swords, Malahide, Skerries and Balbriggan will feed into Sporting Fingal in the future. One way to encourage them would be to enable them to get a representative cap for representing the League of Ireland, as did previous great players. As most players who represented Ireland at international level gained their initial caps while representing the League of Ireland, I wished to mention that practice again.

I will be brief. I welcome the delegates and as for the League of Ireland itself, I compliment Mr. John Delaney and the FAI for at least recognising that a problem would arise in the future. The FAI recognised that a problem would arise and dealt with it by producing the report, introducing standards and obliging the League of Ireland clubs to obey those standards. I wish to put on record that a bubble is ready to burst in England in respect of its league. Watford went into liquidation today and its shares have been suspended. I also refer to other clubs, such as Luton, Leeds, Portsmouth and many more. The people and media of Ireland expect the League of Ireland to be the same as the Premier League in England. However, the players in the English Premier League have become greedy and mean. Moreover, many English clubs now are owned by foreigners who have taken them over and who for the present are able to invest money. Other clubs are trying to compete, which is what happened in the League of Ireland. Some clubs had money and others then tried to compete. I am a soccer man myself and what undoubtedly happened over the past ten years in the League of Ireland is that the clubs which had money won. This is not good for football and is not good to the future of football. One must have an even playing pitch across the board.

Mr. Delaney and the League of Ireland set up a structure called the A Championship, which has worked very well. It includes teams such as Castlebar Celtic and teams from Galway. Such teams have the opportunity to go on to the next stage and to play against Premier Division teams. They have done this with very limited resources. While I am unsure about the team that won the cup recently, they came out of nowhere and I compliment them. It was wonderful to see a Dublin club like that winning the cup. I was sorry for Sligo Rovers, which I supported because it is a club that has been playing soccer for a long time and I had hoped it would win.

Sligo Rovers also brought a great crowd to the final.

The FAI saw a problem and dealt with it. Many of those who are critical of the League of Ireland or the FAI have never attended a League of Ireland game. While they discuss how the premier teams in England are doing or who is playing for Liverpool or for Manchester United, they could not say who played for St. Patrick's Athletic, Bohemians, Sligo Rovers or Dundalk. Were such people to come out on a Friday evening or on a Sunday to support some of these clubs, they might not be half so critical of them.

I want soccer to be strong in Ireland and people in the game should have equal access. The clubs should be licensed and all should be in the same boat, so that money will not win the league. It is all about promotion of football and getting young people to play football. It is wonderful to see so many Irish players still playing in the English Premier League, even though clubs there can buy the best players in the world because they have money. However, I predict that a serious problem will arise in the English league within the next ten years. The English league will revert to using an example that the League of Ireland has used here. While I support Leeds United, members should consider where it is today. It is in its present state because the club thought it could buy success. Although it managed to do so for a short time, it rapidly reached its present position and now must begin to build from the bottom and come back up again.

I want soccer to be strong in Ireland. I seek a strong League of Ireland and for soccer to be run in the best manner possible. While the FAI does not get everything right, it is doing its best and promoting the game. As for the standard of the facilities mentioned in the presentation, I invite members and representatives of the media to come to County Mayo to see the facilities that have been developed there. I used to play football 15 years ago or perhaps a little longer——

The Deputy must have been a goalkeeper.

I was as contrary while playing soccer as I am in politics.

When playing in junior cup or Connacht Cup fixtures, I remember being obliged to change in the back of cars and vans. Thankfully those days are gone as the facilities are in place. The FAI has started from the bottom and is working up. I hope the FAI succeeds in taking control of the League of Ireland. While no one denies that problems exist, the FAI is dealing with them and is trying to work them out. Ultimately, when this process is over, a stronger, better and fairer League of Ireland will emerge. Moreover, the FAI should not forget about the A Championship, which also is working. The FAI should continue to promote that league, which has provided an opportunity to teams in counties Mayo, Galway and elsewhere to get into the big time. They are coming up gradually and slowly and are building from the bottom.

I am happy Deputy Ring did not end up in the boot of the car, as happened in another code.

Yes, to referees.

I join in the welcome extended to the delegation. I am greatly impressed by the facilities the FAI highlighted in its report. I am most familiar with the developments in Galway city and some of the smaller clubs in rural County Galway. Mr. Delaney visited rural clubs such as Shiven Rovers and Colmanstown, at which good facilities have been provided that have been viewed by Packie Bonner.

One interesting point is that where astroturf facilities are provided, mostly by soccer clubs, all other clubs can use them and there is good co-operative sharing of facilities. Every club seems to have summer camps, an idea probably started by Samba Soccer, which is popular. Other members have raised the issue of summer football. It is a good idea to play games when one believes the weather will be good, although the past year has not been a great example. I have referred to the matter of holding finals during the winter. While the FAI league and the cup final are exciting, both games were decided at the end of the year and one must wonder whether it was a good time. I do not know the answer, but I have heard the argument not only about Sky, which has already been mentioned, but also about competing with the GAA during the summer. The argument is that, if people are good in both areas, it would be better to stick to the current schedule.

People have been discussing an all-Ireland league. Following on from this idea is that of an all-Ireland team. We used to wonder what could have been had our Irish team had George Best and other stars from the North. It might have been a great team. The same is still true, but have there been further discussions in this regard?

The league has given us exciting games and there were a great cup run and cup final. I hope that the FAI will continue to invest in this regard, particularly in the smaller clubs that are doing considerable work in sharing facilities and getting young people involved in sport. I hope that they will go from strength to strength and that many more clubs will develop their facilities, which have been poor to date but are improving. Best of luck to the FAI in this regard.

Next to speak will be Deputy Wall, followed by Deputies McGinley and White and Senator Bradford

I thank Mr. Delaney and his colleagues for their presentations. They are welcome to the meeting. It is true to say that when a sporting organisation visits us, they are pushing an open door. No committee on which I have ever been was as sport-oriented as this one. Only a part of our remit relates to sport, but each of us has a great interest in it.

The 2007 decision to amalgamate was positive. We are going through growing pains, which is the case with every amalgamation. The old days of dissension between the two groups are gone. This situation can only lead to a league of which we can be proud. It must be accepted that there have been significant improvements in a short period in terms of structures, facilities and the sense that the league is moving in the right direction.

Some members referred to the issue of success versus clubs' problems. This is a worry for us all. Considering Drogheda, St. Patrick's, Cork, Derry, Bohemians and Shelbourne, that link has existed. The heart can rule the head at times, creating problems for clubs. Too much emphasis is placed upon success to the later detriment of the club, given the losses and subsequent drop in club support and so on. Perhaps there is something to this suggestion.

Deputy Kennedy referred to competitive games, which I remember well. Johnny Byrne was the player with the highest transfer fee in the English league who played against the League of Ireland in Dalymount Park. I believe the transfer fee to Crystal Palace was £64,000. Eamonn Darcy saved a penalty in the last minute of that game, so the League of Ireland won 2:1. It was a wonderful occasion and Dalymount Park was packed. Competition of this kind boosts players in the Irish league and places them on an international platform. Not only can they benefit in terms of their own teams, but they can show their wares and advance their careers.

Regarding the upcoming contracts, Mr. Delaney mentioned it was a new area and that many contracts were out of synch. Could the renegotiations cause problems for the league in 2010?

Are floodlights up to international standards in all facilities? As with all sports, it is important to have an alternative. For the league, this means clubs should be able to change their programmes to suit what is occurring in their own areas and give people an incentive to visit. Facilities, most importantly floodlights, must meet this requirement.

Concerning contracts and young players, some of whom play at the level of league teams, how are their educational needs being met? What is built into their contracts to ensure that they will continue in education? During or after their careers, their education should not be interfered with. Rather, their careers should be a positive link between education and the game of soccer.

Other than the European Cup and so on, can new markets be opened? Some delegates spoke about Northern Ireland in this context. Given our proximity to the English, Scottish and Welsh leagues, what is the possibility of us expanding into other competitions? Mr. Delaney stated that an amalgamation of North and South was not on the agenda. I can see the logic in that, as the league has only existed for three or four years, but we should never close our eyes to new markets.

With Johnny Byrne, Mr. Delaney and the FAI, I have often discussed the association's efforts to enter communities instead of schools and so forth. I compliment the FAI on its efforts in this regard. This is the one thing that other organisations have not done. While I follow the GAA, I criticise it for cherrypicking instead of entering communities like the FAI has done and ensuring that everyone has an opportunity to play. Once someone becomes a player, his or her role in the community changes. It is important that the FAI continue this process, on which I have complimented it numerous times. When we discuss local authorities and clubs, we are also discussing involvement in the community. It is a wonderful asset, particularly to new communities. I live in Athy, one of County Kildare's oldest towns, but it has a new community with no links. We are trying to break down the barriers to give its members an impetus to get involved with the wider community, sports clubs and so on. Mr. Delaney has visited one of our clubs numerous times. With the help of a local landowner, we have new facilities for schoolboys. It is a question of entering communities and long may the FAI's approach continue.

I welcome the delegates, compliment them on their submission and congratulate them on the progress made in promoting the game and improving facilities everywhere. I come from a county with a long tradition of the game. I live in a Gaeltacht parish, Gweedore, and it is great that the game is played here. My father was involved in this many years ago. It is great to see Gweedore Celtic or Dunlewey playing the match through the medium of Irish.

It is significant to see the progress made and the improvement in facilities. At the risk of being parochial, Gweedore Celtic has a state-of-the-art facility, with an astro park. Last summer Aiden McGeady, whose grandmother lives up the road from me, came over to officially open the facility. I compliment the FAI on this and it is great that it can be continued.

In spite of the best efforts of the FAI, we are all disappointed that we will not go to South Africa next year. If Ireland could go to the World Cup, it would do more for the national psyche, the national morale and the economy than any budget introduced in this House. We must wait a few more years for that but the European Championships are in our sights.

The FAI referred to the terrific CPO programme, which I have seen in action in my county. I see the publicity it generates in the newspaper and small schools being visited. Being a former teacher I am in contact with these schools and schools that never had a visit from anyone are being visited by people promoting this game. They get some equipment, footballs or rigs and that is very good. It is one way of getting to the young people by starting these leagues at school level. I hope this can continue and I hope that funding can be provided. This programme is part-funded and I would like to see it continue. The delegation referred to 15 of these programmes in the country. Will the 15 continue next year or are there plans to extend it to other parts of the country? I congratulate the FAI on what it is doing. We will do everything we can. The last match I was at was against Montenegro in Croke Park. It was not the greatest match but it was good to be there. We hope to attend many more in the future.

I apologise for missing the first half of the meeting. I am delighted to meet the delegation. The delegation referred to the metrics for club management arising from the Genesis report. Is the FAI satisfied that support exists for key personnel in regulating finance and co-ordinating events within clubs? I grew up near the Carlisle Grounds in Bray and I remember going to the ground with my father as a young child. It would be nice to see Bray getting a revamp. I moved to Carlow. I have close connections to soccer clubs in Carlow and Kilkenny.

We are three years into the change programme. Perhaps I am delusionally optimistic; is the worst over for struggling clubs in terms of sponsorship and management? We want our young people to be proud of their local clubs and to get a buzz from walking into the ground. We want young people to wear League of Ireland shirts rather than Premier League ones. It would be nice if we were proud and shirt sales increased. That is what we should aspire to. The FAI knows where it wants to go and it is trying to get a message out. It has put structures in place and it is now telling people how it got the message out. That is the essence of good marketing.

We were all in the House the night of the infamous match in Paris. It was amazing because no one was interested in politics that night and everyone knew instantly who had scored. There was an extraordinary feeling in the House. Political rivalry and domestic, economic and financial troubles were put aside. People asked who had scored and what was happening. It was not until we left the House that we knew what had happened. This demonstrates the unifying effect of sport.

I played field sports to a high level when I was at university and afterwards. We should give people good grounds, good clubs and a good sense of ownership of clubs. We do not want to see football grounds with bumpy and uneven surfaces. We want the grounds to look great and we want the lines to be straight. We want a sense of excitement when people come to a match. The presentation of the FAI, which included examples of capital projects completed, shows we are getting there. Like the Iarnród Éireann slogan, we are not there yet but we are getting there. We are talking about soccer today but for the sake of everyone interested in sport I wish the FAI well. I hope the metrics that have been set can be ticked off and that the League of Ireland has a bright future. As Walt Disney wrote in his biography: "If you can dream it, you can do it." We must not only dream it, we must make sure we do it.

I thank Deputy White. That was poetic.

I welcome Mr. Delaney and his colleagues. I am sorry I missed the start of this meeting. I was at another committee meeting. I arrived into this meeting as Deputy Ring was in the middle of his tour de force about his soccer background. I saw a picture in my mind of Deputies Ring, Kenny and O’Mahony forming a neat midfield partnership but then I woke up.

At the invitation of Senator Cummins from Waterford, Mr. Delaney attended a meeting of the Fine Gael parliamentary party some years ago. He provided an interesting outline of his plan for development work with local authorities. It was one of the best presentations I saw before a political party. I did not pursue the detail of the presentation afterwards but I presume most of it has come to pass. That is very helpful. I note what Mr. Delaney said in his presentation about the benchmark for the senior game in respect of administration and financial management. Much progress has been made in that regard. I congratulate the FAI. Mr. Delaney also pointed out that the FAI has achieved what it set out at the beginning of 2007. Well done on that.

If we want to take our heads from the sand, what concerns me is that League of Ireland soccer is failing to capture public attention in terms of support. When I was a child fan in the 1970s, alongside tens of thousands of soccer fans, the soccer club one followed on a Sunday — Cork Hibernians — was as important as the team one followed on a Saturday — Tottenham Hotspur in my case. I agree with Deputy Ring's prediction for British soccer. We lost the battle in respect of loyalty to a club. Cork Hibernians tragically disappeared, as did Cork Celtic. This was replicated across the country. Until we get the fans flowing back, the best plans and the fine stadia are not heading where they should. What can we do to get people watching soccer? We can complain about Britain, Sky Sports, other attractions and people being busy but the best run clubs with the best pitches, administration and everything proper from a legal point of view, will fade unless they have followers. Coming from Cork, and seeing a club in such difficulty, I see that as regrettable. I am not qualified to analyse the difficulties of Cork City but if there were twice as many people going to home games, there would be no such problems. At the end of the work, the reviews and stadia improvements, we are further from getting people to watch live soccer. It is a difficult market and there is great competition but attracting people must be a separate project. There was television advertising and I hear radio advertising; if one is a soccer fan one will tune into it but if one is not one will have no idea what is being spoken about. What more can be done? Other sports have recreated themselves to a certain degree and attracted crowds. I wish I knew the answers; obviously I do not but I see that as being so simple.

It makes it difficult for clubs, players, administrators and owners to have massive plans but to have only 1,000 people at a home game. I am not the oldest person in Leinster House but I recall 15,000 to 20,000 people attending soccer matches in Flower Lodge. Now we have a different type of stadium owned by a different organisation which tells its own story. The clubs in the first division in Scotland have similar difficulties and some of the clubs seem to get crowds in better numbers than others. Perhaps they have better marketing or advertising. In a county the size of Cork with hundreds of thousands of people in a 40 to 50 mile radius, to say a successful home game attendance is 2,000 people sets very low limits to our expectations.

I hope I am not being negative. I want to be realistic as I see this as the very core of the problem. If money makes the world go around, there is only so much sponsorship that the FAI can attract to the League of Ireland. The market is not there. However, a huge number of people on the island are interested in soccer. I share my colleagues' disappointment at the fact that we did not qualify for the World Cup. We qualified for the European championship in 1988 and the World Cup competitions held in Italy and the United States. Did that do anything for Cork City Football Club, Drogheda, Athlone or Limerick? Did it bring a dozen more people to matches? We had a magnificent "Olé olé" brigade but where were they on Friday nights or Sunday afternoons? The centre of making the League of Ireland strong must be getting people back to watching games. Administration is very important as is improvement of stadia but we are at least two goals down on the attendance side.

I hope we can find a new approach, ideas and marketing. I appreciate the money, time and effort spent and the opportunities that have come as a result of the success of the international team but the sum of all those efforts still means that League of Ireland clubs are failing. One can say that is an administrative issue and that the wrong people are in the wrong positions but the failure stems primarily from the fact that people do not go to watch clubs. There is no sense of loyalty to local soccer; it has become disconnected and until we can turn it around and make people as proud of their League of Ireland as they are interested in their favourite British club we have a mountain to climb. I wish the delegation well; its members are extremely professional and work very hard. We support them but we have to get people back.

Before we ask the delegation to respond, as the recently appointed Chairman of the committee I agree with my colleagues. Deputy Jack Wall and others stated that anything stated by the committee is based on reality; a huge interest on the part of every member who spoke — that is my experience not just from this meeting but from others also — and fantastic knowledge at local level of what is going on in their communities. We heard in the presentation that much good work is being done. The clubs have merged with the FAI and much good financial re-adjustment is being done. We have all moved on from the French game; we will stop talking about it now. We all recognise the challenges facing the FAI. Fantastic facilities have been established throughout the country, which we heard about from committee members and saw on the presentation slides.

Stimulus packages are often discussed at Government level and there are parallels here. At Government level, we are trying to put our finances in order and have stimulus packages. The Opposition might state that we are not doing enough in that regard but we will not get into that. There is a general feeling at this meeting that the League of Ireland needs a boost and a stimulus in the coming years.

I have no doubt the FAI has put much thought into addressing this. Deputy Wall wondered whether there were new markets, even outside the island of Ireland. I wondered whether other issues exist that will have to be examined, such as co-operation with Northern Ireland on an all-island approach. Might that provide a stimulus? I also wondered whether amalgamations would have to take place. The real target for any good sporting organisation must be Europe. It is the target of all the good clubs in the Premier League so why should it not be our focus also? The points made here are because of a love of the game, recognition of what has been done by the FAI and genuine concern about crowd numbers and what can be done to bring those great days back, as Senator Bradford summed it up.

Mr. John Delaney

I thank the Chairman and the members for their comments. I will answer most of the questions and my colleagues will make comments on specific issues that were raised. The Chairman mentioned an all-island approach and this exists through the Setanta Cup. I was involved in introducing this cross-Border competition with the IFA. It has a been a relative success to date. On a personal basis I am in favour of having an all-island league at some stage but one must be aware of the sensitivities of some members of the IFA. Politicians are tasked with finding a political solution to the problems on the island and any all-island team would be linked to an overall political solution.

The IFA made it very clear to us, despite spin from certain quarters that we will not mention today, that it did not want to have an all-island club competition at this juncture. However, we have the Setanta Cup. I would like to see an all-island league at some stage. I do not know whether it would be a panacea to some of our ills but I would like to see it explored at a future juncture and the Setanta Cup is a step to that. We must work closely with our colleagues in the IFA to ensure it. It does not matter whether we want it unless the other partner in this marriage, the IFA, wants it just as much and we must be aware of that. The Setanta Cup was a relative success, with Linfield going to Dublin and Derry to play games. I attended Derry City's first game in Windsor Park and Linfield's first game at the Brandywell and they were fantastic to see. We have come a long way but we are in a process and must work with sensitivities.

We are seeing a gap between the premier division and the first division and that is bound to be the case. Having 22 professional clubs in the Republic is not sustainable and we have recognised that. There are five full-time clubs at present. With regard to players leaving, the best players will always play at the highest level as they should. The best chief executives should manage at the highest level and the best politicians should become Ministers and Taoisigh. That is why Jay O'Shea, Séamus Coleman, Kevin Doyle and Stephen Ward have been a success. The gap in the standard between our league and the Premier League is not as big as it was. When young Séamus Coleman and Kevin Doyle can do what they did as quickly as they did, it shows the gap is closing. There is no doubt about it.

I am grateful for Deputy John O'Mahony's remarks and we had a great time in Mayo. We still talk about the week we spent there, we have great memories of it and of visiting grass-roots clubs. The work done at such clubs is the benchmark of our improvement over the past number of years. It does not get media attention because it is not as sexy but it is certainly what we are about. If one builds a house, the foundation is put in first and the chimney takes care of itself. I have been committed, in the five years I have been chief executive and with support from the team and board, to building that foundation correctly. We will see long-term benefits from that.

Coming from a GAA background and reading the headlines concerning Cork City FC, that can become a fixation. That is no more than I might have a fixation on golf or some other sporting issues I might read about. It is unfortunate that high-profile cases affect the impression that the league gives. We made that clear in our submission. Using the term "club" is too broad an expression for blame as it is not the fault of supporters or sponsors. It is the owners of the clubs who are at fault, as they are entrusted with running the clubs, whether it is the board of directors or the individual owners. In a couple of cases, they have not changed their behaviour culturally in line with the regulations we brought into play. That cultural difference is not there. I will speak about Derry in a moment as it is a specific example.

With regard to how we will address the issue, this was always going to be a five-year process. When the losses are reduced from the highest level of €6.7 million to €2.9 million, we know progress is being made. Bringing in the salary cost protocol has pushed the wages down that the clubs spend on players' salaries, and I have given examples of how that has moved down under Mr. Smith, who will speak on the issue. He works on a daily basis on that.

We are making progress although it is not as apparent in the media as much as it should be because of high-profile cases. We are prepared to deal with those forcibly. Perhaps we did not deal with them as strongly as we could have over the past year or two. Perhaps we were trying to keep clubs going and encourage them. The Derry example was a watershed in terms of how we intend to deal with issues. I cannot talk about what will happen tomorrow but the owner of Cork City FC has been charged with bringing the game into disrepute and he must attend a disciplinary hearing. The actions of that owner over the past 12 months have brought the game into disrepute and given an image of League of Ireland football that is unfair to the other clubs which have behaved well.

One of the problems has been player salaries. One player in the League of Ireland was on €4,000 per week up to recently, which is unsustainable. One club had eight or nine players on over €100,000 a year, which is also unsustainable. Full-time football is sustainable in this country but with a proper wage structure rather than the crazy figures I have just outlined. Five clubs work on a full-time basis. It is affordable but only when the correct wages are paid.

I am very open to summer soccer. I come from a traditional background and my father was chairman of Waterford United. I have a love for the league and Al Finucane, Richie Hall and even Bobby Charlton used to come to my house every Sunday morning. My father signed Charlton to play for Waterford and he played half a dozen games. It was the last club he played for. As a young kid I went to St. Mel's Park, Milltown, Flower Lodge and all those wonderful grounds so it is in my blood. It is part of me. A person's best memories come from being a child and the League of Ireland is very much part of me.

I would have been a traditionalist and preferred to have a winter season but I must recognise the advantages of the summer season. Its biggest success has been the better performances in Europe. The European competition performance is one of our benchmarks and by playing through the summer and meeting Swedish and Russian teams half-way through our season, as opposed to when teams are not playing at all, has been a success. I know there has been commentary about crowds but Premier Division crowds are up 30% since we took over the league. That is an incremental process against many other sports and television events. People are only prepared to now go to the big games.

I have often made the example that even in the GAA, if the county teams played every week in the championship, there would not be as big an attendance as when my own county, Waterford, turn out for the hurling. The whole county comes out to support the team during the summer because it is preparing for the first round of the championship. If Waterford played every Sunday in a championship game through the year, the attendances would naturally drop because the hype would not be the same.

The biggest issue has been the cultural change of some of the owners. The Derry example was indicative of how some — not many — League of Ireland clubs ran their affairs in the past. Derry City Football Club was outside our tax jurisdiction and therefore we did not have the same handle on how it conducted itself, as we would with other clubs. In short, it had two sets of contracts, one of which the players signed to register with us under a standard players' contract, which has all the entitlements and rights for the players. That was a good document which was put in place by Fran Gavin. He is the director of the league now but was head of the Professional Footballers' Association of Ireland at the time.

There was also a secondary contract in place with the players which was meant to disguise from us the payments being made. When we discovered the issue, we dealt with it quickly and forcibly. Neither I nor anybody in Irish football tolerates that type of carry-on in the game. The reason it did not come to our attention in the main was that Derry was outside our jurisdiction from a tax regulation perspective.

It is a pity Deputy Upton has left because she made some very good points. One was that we can afford full-time football but not with the current structure. She spoke about a centre of excellence for young players and we have recognised that. We have brought in a director of performance, Mr. Wim Koevermans, who was in the Dutch squad in 1988 that beat us in the European Championships. He has brought a cultural change to the development of football in this country.

When I was a child playing, the old way was that a right-back would knock a ball long and the player might get three or four kicks in a game at 11 or 12 a side. Big lads got games before smaller boys. The approach of Mr. Koevermans is more flexible, with more touches and less competition at a younger age. That is a cultural change we will try to bring through schoolboy football over the coming years. He is heading that up with the support of Packie Bonner.

We have brought development squads all over the country. When I was growing up in Tipperary — I was born in Waterford — there was no such thing as a development squad for our age. In every league we have development squads from under-11 football through to under-14, and they work through to every region from under-15 football to under-17. The simple principle is that the best players must play against each other, and they will improve by doing so. The best players from under-11 to under-14 play in development squads in each league and then move to the regions to play against each other. We have inter-regional tournaments. Ultimately, they will play under-age international football and, as Mr. Fahy mentioned, we played over 200 international matches last year. The best players in the league move to the regions and then international football.

The missing cog in the machine for us is Abbottstown, the national campus and the academy. Unfortunately the funding is not there at the moment but I would love to see it not only as chief executive of the FAI but also as vice president of the Olympic Council of Ireland. It is a missing link for Irish sport, including Irish football.

I said the last time I was here five or six weeks ago that I would support multi-purpose stadia where practical. It is not possible to have an all-weather pitch for Arravale Rovers, a GAA club; one for St. Michael's Football Club, which I played for; and one for Clanwilliam Rugby Club. It would not make sense for all three to have it and there should be shared facilities in smaller towns. I would welcome more work between the national governing bodies and more value for money for the sports grants programme, when it returns, so that it can provide facilities on a multi-sport basis where required and optimal.

Deputy Upton also made a very good point on child protection officers. We were the first national governing body to bring in a child protection officer in Michael Lynam. Most of us are parents and want to ensure that where our children go is safe. Under Mr. Lynam, every club must have a children's officer. Some 19,000 children went through our summer soccer camps last year and all the coaches were Garda-vetted. We were the first national governing body to achieve that as well. All our employees are Garda-vetted as well, so we treat such issues really seriously.

We have over 100,000 children playing schoolboys football and where there is that much participation, it can attract the wrong type of character, no matter what sport. We want to ensure that as little as possible can happen and if it happens, the issue can be dealt with very quickly. We have had examples and dealt with them well.

I have spoken about Derry City and I have an open mind on the changes to the season, which has helped us with success in Europe. When we finish the next two years, we have committed to an overall review as to whether we should return to the traditional football season or stick with the summer soccer season.

I am old enough to remember the games we played against teams from the Irish Football Association and they were great. The Setanta Cup has replaced that somewhat and Deputy Kennedy is correct in that every player should have the right to play at international level. We play in an under-23 tournament at international level where the best League of Ireland players get the opportunity to play for the league. Don Givens, with the under-21 squad, has used a number of under-21 players from our domestic league to represent us internationally.

I could not speak today without mentioning Deputy Ring's tour de force and his love for soccer. We had a great time in Mayo and he is a real friend of the association in many ways.

The Deputy is right when he says we recognise the problem. On a personal note, I wanted the merger to go through two years before it did. I was treasurer of the FAI at the time. The political will was not there then; if it had been we would be two years further ahead. I was secretary of Waterford United football club and used go around on Fridays, raising money to pay the wages and always tell this story as an example. When Waterford was drawn against Dynamo Tbilisi in 1980, after winning the FAI senior cup in that year, there were no subsidies of any kind from UEFA. The club had to go door to door in Waterford to raise £20,000, the cost of going to play Dynamo Tbilisi. It raised £8,000 but nobody ever asked where the extra £12,000 came from. My dad wrote a personal cheque to ensure the team could get to Europe. These are things one does not forget. I was part of it too, writing my own cheques at times to ensure that wages were paid in Waterford United, because that was the culture.

However, having moved to the position I hold now and understanding the problem, I know one has to understand it to resolve it and reach a solution. That is why I wanted the merger to go through two years beforehand. I knew the crazy ways we were being paid could not continue and that the culture of subsidisation could not continue to the extent it had. UEFA has recognised what we have done and, concerning the Champions League, it will move towards implementing a percentage of relevant income for talks to participate in that league in the future, based on the Irish model. That is what will be quoted throughout Europe. It may not look as if we are making progress at the moment but I know when we see it through the problems will become more apparent.

The Deputy is right about the A championship. I was in Tralee the other night with Ray Houghton when Tralee Dynamos finished its season. Can members imagine a team from Kerry playing the last 16 of the FAI senior cup? Who would have thought it? The growth of the game in Kerry is fantastic. There are 2,500 schoolboys playing soccer in Kerry now, with some wonderful facilities, and similarly in Mayo and all parts of the country. The pride the people took in Tralee Dynamos being in the last 16 of the FAI senior cup is important. It is important for community but also in providing that link from the junior-intermediate game to the senior game. Despite the dysfunction and disconnect that was there — and still is, to a certain extent — it gives the opportunity for the Tralees and Merviews, Castlebars and Westports, or whatever, to play in our League of Ireland so they can rise to the highest level. There is no doubt about that.

Deputy Michael Kitt has left the meeting but we are travelling to West Coast United in Connemara in the first week in January to attend its dinners. We travel around the country. This was not done much in the past but I take great pride in it. I visited more than 700 clubs in five years going around the country, either presenting medals or opening grounds. It is important to do that. In the past, the FAI was very Dublin-centred. When one was from outside the Pale one did not get as much attention in the past. Now the entire ethos is to develop the game all around the country and we are making great progress. I know the committee recognised that today.

Regarding having the cup final in November, it is traditional that it should always be at the end of the season. I feel it should be the last game of the season. If a team wins the cup in October, which happened in the past because we did that a couple of years ago, it then has a flat end to the season, playing out its league format. If the season changes back we will finish in May but it is right to play the cup final as the last game of the season, irrespective of inclement conditions.

I know Deputy Wall very well. Concerning the game he mentioned, did it happen before or after the ban?

It is amazing that Mr. Delaney has been talking about Waterford all this time. Waterford was my team and I remember the Hales, Fitzgeralds, Coads and others. I remember them all as playing for Waterford so the ban did not come into it in my overview of where we should stand.

Mr. John Delaney

The Deputy was right about contracts. Players will want new contract negotiations but that is between them and the clubs. I have asked Mr. Padraig Smith, our compliance auditor, who watches the budgets the clubs will have next year, and Mr. Fran Gavin, who accepts the registration of the contracts, to watch whether clubs are registering players at a contract venue we believe to be out of line of budget. In other words, if Mr. Smith sees that 20 players are being signed at a value too high for budget, Mr. Gavin has the authority not to register the contract. We will not accept the registration. That is how tough we will be in the coming season. It is a big point.

Regarding education and benevolence, we formed a fund with the PFAI, the professional footballers association, to provide for players when they leave football, whether at the end of their career or if they suffer serious injury. We have a fund in place, whereby if a player wants to learn how to drive a forklift, or talk about career development, or get a football coaching course, the facility is there. We have taken certain cases on, recognising that a football career can be short. If one finishes in one's mid-30s, one must be prepared for afterwards.

Involvement in other competitions, apart from the Setanta cup with Scotland and Wales, would be difficult, especially given current economic conditions. The television deals that might have been available some years ago are not available now. Any deal one makes, in terms of club competition, is centred on good television contracts.

Deputy McGinley made some points. I know Gweedore very well and we spent a lot of time up there, and even as far up as the Inishowen peninsula where there are wonderful facilities. The CPO programme will be continued next season for 15 co-funded CPO projects, under the jurisdiction of Mr. Noel Mooney who heads it. The scheme the Deputy mentioned was used in the clubs to bring milk into schools and encourage children to drink more milk. It was as simple as that. It is something we do with the National Dairy Council and we are very proud of it. We are to extend it further with our development officers around the country. It is a great scheme. Mr. Mooney deserves much credit for bringing it to our attention. Effectively, it encourages children to drink milk using sport in school as a tool. It has worked really well and more children are drinking milk as a result.

Arising from our last visit I believe hockey is Deputy White's sport. I am well aware of her connection to clubs because I have heard about it along the way. I shall ask my colleagues to answer her technical questions about standards and whether we are happy with the grounds. Mr Fahy will give a decent answer.

Is the worst over? I am confident it is. Will we see more difficulties? I believe we will but we must get the owners who run the clubs to change the culture. I hate sanctioning supporters, deducting points and relegating clubs because, ultimately, the owners will walk away and the club will suffer. It is the last thing one wants to do but we had to do it in the Derry case and if we have to do it again we certainly will do it. We cannot have people running clubs who are not fit to run them or who run them in a cavalier way that ultimately affects the community.

Deputy Bradford spoke about crowds. When there is instability with regard to a club this will naturally affect the fans who come. This is well known in Cork. I presented awards at the Hall of Fame awards for Cork City supporters' club because I was asked. Many supporters came to me that night and said they would not go to Turners Cross to see Cork City play while the current regime is in place. That is well known and well spoken about. It is not just about marketing the league but is also about how supporters feel about their club and how it is being run.

We will be in the Houses again to address Fine Gael. I spoke to Deputy Tom Hayes some months ago who wanted us to do a similar type of presentation and I would love to do the same for Fianna Fáil. That was part of what I did when I first became chief executive. I wanted to give the political system a broader understanding of what Irish football does. I believe we have got that message across through our work with local authorities and various Deputies and councillors around the country. I shall return to that.

There has been a 30% increase in activity, so Deputies should not be so negative or downcast. We are making progress. It is incremental but perhaps some Deputies might be based in a part of the country where a club is in turmoil and will hear about this on a daily basis so I can understand the negativity. I do not wish to go back over old ground but when I went to Flower Lodge as a child it was wonderful. When Flower Lodge went out of football that disappointed me as a child and still disappoints my father. That is one of the reasons we fought the Tallaght debate so strongly, as a national governing body. I did not want to preside over Tallaght football club not being available for Shamrock Rovers. I am very glad it worked out.

I ask Mr. Mooney to deal in brief with the marketing aspect, Mr. Fahy to deal with Deputy White's views about the standards concerning how grounds are run. Mr Smith may have further points with regard to our financial strategy for the future.

Mr. Noel Mooney

In terms of marketing the league, we believe we should build it as a community club system. Performance has to be got right first. As Mr. Delaney said, if a club is in turmoil, it affects the marketing of the league. There is no point putting out a fancy campaign showing how great the league is. I played for Cork City for seven or eight years, when Kevin Doyle, Shane Long and the lads came through and went straight to the highest levels in England. If one is living in Cork, one gets to see the next generation of world superstars. We do not have a problem with them going to play in the English premiership because big leagues around Europe, in Spain, Portugal, Holland and Italy, also see their best players gravitating towards the Premier League. It is the biggest league in the world. If one travels the world one sees the Premier League everywhere. The biggest club in the world is only across the pond.

However, at Cork there were 5,400 people this year at a match with Bohemians. As Mr. Delaney said, the GAA plays every week. I am from Limerick. When that team plays hurling in a league match if it gets 5,000 in attendance it is doing well.

We play 18 league matches each year. We must work as a community; that is what differentiates us. Let us consider Cork City. It is based in Cork, a big city and county with a very substantial population. It can build links with the local schoolboy clubs, which are very strong there, build links with the schools through the CPO, club promotion officer, programme and with community groups, including those from new communities and people who have arrived from other countries with football as their first sport. It is possible to build such links.

We are working with RTE in the marketing area. When we took over running the league there was 20 minutes or half an hour broadcast on another channel at midnight. Now the League of Ireland has a one hour prime time programme for which Mr. Delaney fought very hard. The FAI could have taken the money; it could have taken a good deal of money to work without it. We chose to spend the money on securing a one hour prime time programme. The work is being done in that area. Obviously, we would like to spend more money on marketing. Given the work Mr. Smith is doing to get the clubs just right in terms of the finance, there is incremental improvement and we see this every year. We will continue to work side by side with him to continue to improve the community and marketing work of the league such that we work together on a step change basis.

Mr. Richard Fahy

Deputy White referred to the personnel in the club, especially those involved in managing events. We have made significant progress in terms of professionalising the administration and organisation of the clubs. This has been achieved in several ways, including the enforcement of criteria and licensing processes. One of the key areas we examine is that of personnel. Basically, the licensing manual outlines the personnel clubs must have in place and such people must have appropriate qualifications. Sometimes clubs introduce people who are appropriately qualified and sometimes there are volunteers who come in and may not have the skills in terms of marketing, event management or stewarding which are a key part of running clubs. We have worked very closely with the clubs and these people to facilitate training programmes.

For example, one measure we have taken is in the area of stewarding and event controlling for games. We have developed a FETAC accredited event management programme for stewards. It has been a very successful programme for us not only in the area of training stewards who operate at League of Ireland grounds, but those who work and volunteer at international events as well. The programme has been very successful and it has been replicated by the IRFU and the GAA. They saw the benefits of running such a training programme and they have used it to help the running of their events. There is a very strong link.

I refer to the matter of the sports campus, referred to by Mr. Delaney. As the director of club licensing and facilities I believe the sports campus is crucial to the development of our game. If one considers any of the high technology industries based here, whether IBM, Microsoft or whatever, research and development is key for them because it allows a company to stay ahead of the market all the time. A campus for sports, especially for football, is our research and development tool and at the moment it is not in place. Our players are as good as any players in the world up to the age of 16 or 17 years. The big difference is in finishing them off, between the age of 17 to 21 years. That is a crucial time when they begin full-time training. At that stage they require full-time coaching and medical back-up and the sports campus is the missing link. I am pleased the project still has a pulse and it is still there under review. I understand some money was provided in the recent budget to allow the other national governing bodies move out to the campus. Sports facilities are very much required there. The project would centralise all the brain power within sports in terms of the top coaches, medical people and educators. Earlier in his contribution, Mr. Delaney referred to the fact that one does not produce good players by accident. Good players emerge as a result of good coaching programmes and a good coaching and education system. There is an interdependence between all these areas to try to help to develop the future generation of Irish players for our international team and for the League of Ireland. If players decide to go abroad there is an alternative source of revenue for the clubs in terms of transfer fees.

Mr. Padraig Smith

I realise Mr. Delaney has spoken already about the majority of the financial issues. I refer to the comments of Deputy White regarding what the FAI can do from a practical perspective. It is worth noting that by introducing the salary cuts protocol in 2008, the FAI was the first association in Europe to introduce a mandatory cost control salary mechanism. That has worked already and we have seen the benefits after only one year. We will continue to see the benefits in the coming years. I refer to Deputy Wall's comments regarding the number of players out of contract. This is a crucial issue and we must see the clubs through the next phase. While the worst is over some difficulties still remain. With 90% of players out of contract, the clubs have the ability to find their own level. Through the increased budgetary control mechanisms put in place by Mr. Delaney and the board we will work with the clubs to ensure they can find the right level, implement a debt reduction strategy and find the appropriate cost levels for their business.

I refer to the salary costs protocol. We have moved this process further for 2010 and it will include management and coaching salaries for the first team, but it will not include salaries for youth coaching. We are trying to encourage the development of youth players. By limiting what a club can spend to 65% of its relevant income, the salary cuts protocol gives the clubs more money to spend on youth development, infrastructure, community programmes and administration. These are the three or four crucial areas which will help to ensure the foundations for solid clubs, which is very important.

I will sum up. I thank Mr. Delaney and his team for joining us today. They are beginning to get to know us rather well as they have been before the committee several times at this stage. There is great interest in the work of the delegation. We are interested in hearing about the future of the League of Ireland and the difficulties facing clubs. I thank the delegation for being open with us with regard to future plans. It has faced up to the fact that there are several difficulties and it has provided some very important analysis and insight into the direction matters are taking. There is a good team in place and I thank Mr. Delaney for the presentation. We wish the delegation well because of our great interest in this area. We are a very lucky country because of the great variety of sports. The delegation's sport is based in the community and Mr. Delaney travels throughout the country from the west, to the south to the north east. It is important work. The bottom line for us is the tremendous work that has continued at community level. We have raised several issues and the delegation has responded to our questions.

The meeting outcomes will go into our annual report. The delegation has called on us to bear in mind some of the areas in which we can assist. In particular, the sports campus project has been mentioned. We will take this on board and try to advance these issues which are very important. I wish everyone a happy Christmas and new year. Guím Nollaig shona agus athbhliain faoi mhaise daoibh go léir.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.50 p.m. until Wednesday, 20 January 2010.
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