Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 24 Feb 2010

Contemporary Irish Music Industry: Discussion.

I welcome our guests and thank them for coming in such numbers. The joint committee has invited representatives of RTE and Today FM to discuss and examine the level of support for the contemporary Irish music industry and new emerging talent. As I explained earlier to members of the committee, I will vacate the Chair shortly, as I have a personal interest in this subject as I happen to have two sons who are involved in the industry as singer-songwriters. It would be appropriate, therefore, for me to attend the meeting as an ordinary member. Consequently, I will ask the Vice Chairman, Deputy Kennedy, to chair the meeting. I hope to ask general questions of the delegation, as the subject is of interest to me personally.

Deputy Michael Kennedy took the Chair.

I thought the Chairman was going to announce that he had become a professional singer, as in recent months his fame has been spreading in a certain hotel on Harcourt Street.

There are a few vacancies in the Cabinet also.

I welcome the delegation which includes: Mr. John McMahon, head of RTE 2FM; Mr. Ian Wilson, producer in charge of live music programming, RTE 2FM; Mr. Kevin Linehan, executive producer of music programming, RTE; Mr. Rory Coveney, senior communications manager, RTE; Mr. Willie O'Reilly, chief executive, Today FM; and Mr. Tom Hardy, programme director, Today FM. I thank all of them for attending. Before we begin, I draw their attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee.

It is important that the airwaves are accessible to emerging Irish talent, as the international competition is great. Members of the committee want to put issues to the delegation regarding emerging Irish talent. It is also important from a cultural viewpoint that young Irish people are exposed to the fact that Irish culture is multifaceted. They always look to America and Britain for their pop idols, but we have our own Irish stars such as U2 and others who are internationally renowned.

I now call on Mr. McMahon to make his presentation.

Mr. John McMahon

I thank the Vice Chairman and other members for giving us an opportunity to address the joint committee on the subject of supporting the contemporary Irish music industry and nurturing new emerging talent. I am the head of 2FM, RTE's second radio station and the primary popular music and entertainment station within RTE. I am joined by my colleagues Mr. Kevin Linehan, executive producer with responsibility for music programming on RTE Television; Mr. Ian Wilson, radio producer, who has 30 years' experience of the Dave Fanning sessions, is the founder and former chairman of the European Broadcasting Union's Eurosonic group and continues to be the driving force behind 2FM's sessions, live concert recordings, dance and alternative music programme productions; and Mr. Rory Coveney, a senior manager in RTE's corporate communications department. Between the four of us, I hope we will be able to address the committee's questions which we will endeavour to answer as fully as possible.

RTE is the biggest employer of musicians in the country. It houses the RTE Concert and RTE Symphony orchestras. RTE also pays recognised rates to musicians for use of their recordings on radio and television programmes across the board, records live concerts and delivers huge quantities of music programming to our European Broadcasting Union colleagues via the programme exchange scheme, all of which is recorded, mixed and transmitted to the highest international standard. We have a long-standing, far-reaching and ongoing commitment to the Irish music industry in all its shapes and sizes.

The world is changing fast and the world of music more than most. For much of the past 50 years radio was the primary means of music discovery for most people. It was radio that invented the "Grand Ole Opry" in the United States, BBC and pirate radio in the United Kingdom that brought the sounds of the 1960s to millions and RTE radio that discovered and nurtured acts, from U2 through Sinead O'Connor, to The Cranberries, The Divine Comedy, The Frames, Mundy and so many others.

The past five years have seen a seismic shift in the music industry and how music is discovered, consumed and enjoyed. The explosion of the Internet, from MySpace to LimeWire and from iTunes to Pirate Bay, has meant that while radio is still an important, relevant and vital place for new artists to be found and played, its dominance for music is not what it was. Musicians have changed their focus to an on-line future and are struggling to find ways to make themselves heard and earn a living in a global musical village where everything is available and much of it is free.

Radio, music radio in particular, faces real challenges in this environment. No longer the sole way to discover new music, radio must engage differently with our audiences to ensure that there is still a value to our output. We must continue to provide exclusive content, premium services and real engagement if we are to remain relevant to the music hungry listener.

RTE radio, in particular, does this by providing the listener access to the best acts live in session or recording their concerts, by bringing the best new and emerging talent to air and on-line and by engaging with our audience's need for additional information through on-line musical databases, archives and many other initiatives. To illustrate this, I will outline some figures for the committee.

In 2009, RTE Radio 1 broadcast 20 hours coverage of the major music festivals in Ireland, including Fleadh Ceoil na hÉireann, the Willie Clancy Summer School, and so on. Some 37 acts performed live and were interviewed on "Today with Pat Kenny" on Radio 1's prime time. Programmes such as "Risin' Time", "The Ronan Collins Show" and "The John Creedon Show" consistently play a high proportion of Irish music of all vintages. John Creedon's show, for example, can play upwards of 30% Irish music on a nightly basis. "Arena", Radio 1's arts programme, recorded 45 music sessions in 2009, some 25 of which were Irish artists. Other music programmes on Radio 1, from "Roots Freeway" to "South Wind Blows", "Fáilte Isteach" and the in-concert series feature well known Irish acts in large numbers.

On our arts and music station, Lyric FM, meanwhile, more than 1,000 pieces by Irish performing groups and more than 2,000 pieces by Irish artists, composers or performers were broadcast last year, and several Lyric FM programmes do regular acoustic sets and interviews with Irish artists as diverse as Jack L and Altan.

Lyric FM record label has to date released more than 20 CDs with a focus on Irish artists, past and present. Lyric FM composer in residence, Ms Elaine Agnew, has been commissioned to compose three new pieces in the next two years, renewing her relationship with the station, while the station also offers scholarships for aspiring musicians to the University of Limerick among many other initiatives to support a range of musical talent as a matter of course.

Raidió na Gaeltachta's involvement with contemporary traditional and modern Irish music is long held and deep rooted. From its sponsorship of Siansa Gael Linn, broadcasting sean nós from Oireachtas na Gaeilge to its involvement with the Willie Clancy summer school and the Fleadh Ceoil, Raidió na Gaeltachta has also released a number of CDs highlighting the talent on view at these events.

In the evenings, too, Raidió na Gaeltachta provides contemporary Irish music to a younger audience through Anocht FM. Since the station relaxed its rules on English language lyrics in 2005, this four hours of music programming seven nights a week features a wide range of new, emerging and established Irish talent.

Perhaps the most obvious point of reference when thinking of RTE and the Irish music industry is my station, 2FM. As RTE's second station and the most listened to music and entertainment station in the country, we are understandably the focus of much attention in this regard.

Since its inception more than 30 years ago Radio 2, as it then was, and 2FM more recently, has been at the forefront of discovering, nurturing and highlighting the best of Irish rock, pop, dance and contemporary music. Over the years we have recorded thousands of sessions with Irish acts of all kinds and work is currently under way to make this archive available on-line for the first time since its original broadcast. Last year alone, 2FM recorded 64 sessions with Irish artists and paid more than €20,000 in fees to the musicians for these recordings.

2FM is an ever-present force at the major Irish music festivals. We record, contract and transmit two full weekends of live performances across the year on 2FM featuring the best of Irish and international acts, and will continue to do so in the year ahead. Last year we recorded 31 Irish acts on the IMRO stage at Oxegen and shared these recordings with the BBC and our EBU colleagues, and made them available on-line. Working with our colleagues in BBC Northern Ireland, in particular, has proven an efficient mechanism for both parties to ensure the sharing of Irish musical talent on a 32-county basis.

We have also been an avid supporter of the EBU's Eurosonic festival since its foundation 12 years ago and have regularly sent Irish acts to perform at this most important European music symposium. Last year we sent two acts, Fight Like Apes and The Coronas, and in 2010, we sent So I Watch You From Afar, and supported its attendance at the Eurosonic festival.

2FM's commitment to dance and alternative music is also unrivalled. We commission ten mixes by Irish DJs a month and last year paid more than €12,000 in fees for these commissions.

However, we also recognise the changing face of our audience and their new multimedia environment. For this reason, 2FM is directly involved with two of RTE's DAB stations, 2XM and Pulse, and this engagement will lead to further opportunities for emerging Irish talent in the coming 12 months.

The need to expose the general audience to new talent has been recently addressed by 2FM with "The Gerry Ryan show's" new Undercurrents series, which sees 2FM's biggest programme, with more than 300,000 listeners daily, committing to play one new unsigned act every week. The response to this initiative has been so big that the DAB channel 2XM has undertaken to broadcast a half hour a week of other contenders for this coveted slot every Friday at noon.

Even in the station's most competitive part of the schedule, Monday to Friday from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m., 2FM's support for Irish music continues. This part of the day operates a music play list — songs selected by the staff of 2FM to fit the station sound. The core of this play list is the A list and B list of songs. Numbering approximately 50 in total, these songs form the very core of the 2FM station sound. While a play list of its very nature changes weekly, currently 20% of this play list is Irish. This 20% features real diversity, from Bell X1 to the Delorentos, from Boyzone and Jedward to a brand new Donegal band, The Plea, 2FM continues to have new Irish rock and pop at its very heart.

The 2FM website hosts the only on-line resource for discovering Irish bands via the Artist database. Not only this, but the site has also featured sessions, festival coverage and, in particular, recordings from the IMRO stage at last year's Oxegen festival. All of the on-line content focused strongly on Irish acts and artists offering valuable exposure via the audio and video recordings made at these events.

To this wealth of support for Irish acts, I want to add the strength and depth of RTE television. From "The Late Late Show" to "Come West Along The Road" and from "The Café" to "When Under Ether", "The View" and many other shows, RTE television boasts a wide range of programming supporting every type of musical genre.

Some facts and figures might help bear this out. Taking the flagship show, "The Late Late Show", as a prime example, in the 2007-2008 season, it featured 113 musical acts in performance, of which 70 were Irish. Last season, 2008-2009, "The Late Late Show" featured 114 acts, 81 of which were Irish. From Tommy Fleming to The Undertones, from The Dixies to Imelda May, "The Late Late Show" has a long and ongoing history of support for the Irish music industry. I could go on citing examples across the television schedules where Irish music and Irish musicians are supported and nurtured, and I, Kevin Linehan and my colleagues can elaborate further during the discussion.

Before I conclude, I would just add that it is particularly relevant to discuss RTE's role in Irish musical life at this time as in October 2010 RTE will engage in a week-long organisation-wide event in support of the Irish music industry. From Monday, 11 October to Sunday, 17 October, the first annual celebration of the enormous range and outstanding quality of RTE's contribution to Irish musical life will take place. Programming of live concerts and broadcast events on radio, television and on-line, drawing on RTE's music archives, is currently under way and will be announced in the coming months.

I hope these details have given the committee some insight into the depth and range of RTE's support for contemporary Irish music and the industry as a whole.

Gabhaim buíochas le Mr. McMahon as ucht an tuarascáil sin. Anois beidh Mr. Willie O'Reilly.

Mr. Willie O’Reilly

I am delighted to be invited here to address the committee. I am chief executive of Today FM. With me is my colleague, Mr. Tom Hardy, who is the programme director of that same station.

Today FM is Ireland's national commercial entertainment station. Our success is based on the personalities in our schedule and their relationship with our audience. We also have strong current affairs strands on our station and we are widely respected for our Premier League coverage at the weekend.

Music is also an important part of what we do. To put it in some perspective, during daytime, music comprises approximately 40% of our output, and after 7 p.m. this percentage is higher.

Since we came on air in 1998, Today FM has adopted a policy of strongly supporting Irish music and musicians. We do not do this in a tokenistic way. We play Irish music side by side with the best international artists. On our station, one will hear Mundy played next to Florence and the Machine.

Irish music is part of our listeners' DNA. Our listeners are Irish, love Irish music and have come to expect and enjoy Irish music, new and old, on Today FM. It is no burden for us to play Irish music. It is an integral part of our success and something we are happy to continue doing. Many acts which we have championed in their infancy are now household names: Damien Rice, Bell X1, Lisa Hannigan, The Frames, Mick Flannery, Declan O'Rourke, The Republic Of Loose, Laura Izibor, Jerry Fish, Imelda May and that young talented up-coming star, David Kitt, to name just a few.

That is why I am down here.

Mr. Willie O’Reilly

If asked, all of them will tell the committee what an important role Today FM has played in their early years.

As the committee will be aware, our industry is regulated by the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland and it sets a quota of Irish music for us at 20%. This is a figure we regularly exceed. While we are good at setting rules, are we good at keeping them, and do we understand the spirit behind that rule or regulation? I think we in Today FM do.

We do our best to feature Irish artists at prime time, which for me is 7 a.m. to 7 p.m., during the schedule. We bring them on for sessions and interviews during Ian Dempsey's show, "The Ray D'Arcy Show", Ray Foley's show and Tony Fenton's show. Indeed, the only show missing there from our daytime schedule is probably Matt Cooper's, which is a current affairs show.

Last year alone we aired more than 125 live sessions, often accompanied by live on-air interviews. In this way we offer invaluable airtime to Irish artists on the release of their recording or on the eve of a gig or concert.

I think the committee gets the message — we will and do support Irish music. Having said that, however, it is really important that the industry continues to develop and support music and artists that are relevant for our audience. Our station is primarily targeted or focused at the under 45s. Media today is more segmented then ever before and we depend on a pipeline of artists who will appeal to this younger age group.

It is also the case that the music industry is an unforgiving one and many bands that seem so talented just crash and burn. They are shooting stars for a moment and then they fade to obscurity. Long-term success in this industry is achieved only by the very few. Many artists, talented or otherwise, end up as casualties on rocks lost highway — they are gone.

Our role is not to support everybody. We clearly cannot do that. What we can do is support those who we believe appeal most to our audience and offer them a chance of success. As I stated when I began, that has been our policy to date and it is the way we intend to conduct our business in the future.

I invite the members to ask questions. I call Deputy Ring.

I welcome the delegation and thank them for their comments. Listening to both presentations, no doubt there is a conflict between commerce and entertainment, and audiences.

My first point relates to the 20% ruling. People are concerned, because of the 20%, that 80% of the royalties are going out of the country and people would like to see more of such royalties being left in the country. I can understand where RTE and Today FM are competing. It is all about audiences and having people listening to it.

I want to make a point about country and western music. Recently I met a guy who promoted bands for many years who was critical of the Oireachtas, RTE and others for not doing anything for Irish artists. I will give two or three points and then pose the question as to whether this is possible, particularly for RTE because it is the State broadcaster.

Lyric FM is working well. There is an audience for it. I speak to RTE because, as I stated, it is a State agency and to be fair, Today FM is more commercial and is there to try to meet its overheads. Would it be possible for RTE to put on another station like Lyric FM?

RTE lost out to local radio. RTE itself is to blame because it allowed local radio stations to be as strong as they are simply because it was not catering for those who wanted to be catered for. I suppose it is not easy to cater for everybody. Would it be possible for RTE to put on an station featuring Irish artists — I refer to country and western, jazz and music of all kinds — to have that option for people if they want to use it?

RTE, like Today FM, must be commercial and must ensure it gets the audiences. Local radio found that. They were playing a great deal of country and western music and were losing the younger crowd. Then they had to come along and put on programmes for the younger people because they were not listening to country and western.

For example, recently I was in Claremorris in the McWilliams Hotel where there were 2,000 people at a Big Tom performance. I know that many in RTE would laugh, asking who Big Tom is and what does he stand for. Big Tom is a country and western singer. Mick Denver will play in the TF ballroom in Castlebar on Saturday night where I guarantee there will be another 2,000 people.

RTE runs a talent show on Sunday evenings which is very popular and features young upcoming Irish artists. RTE gets a great reaction to that programme. I myself enjoy it. If I must go to a funeral, which has to be done, I try to be back for the result, which I only wish would be a little later.

Could the 20% quota for Irish music be increased? Would RTE consider providing a station for all Irish music talents, whether it be country and western or Joe Dolan, the Lord have mercy on him? Such artists bring thousands of people to venues, and yet one rarely hears them on RTE and Today FM. As I stated, I guarantee there will be 2,000 people at the Mick Denver concert on Saturday, to which I referred. There is an audience that is not being catered for.

I understand the commercial considerations involved. With RTE and Today FM, it is all about audiences, advertising and having people listening to programmes. Those are just two proposals I put to the delegations. As I stated, the local radio stations are stronger than they ever were simply because RTE was not able to cater for such audiences in the past. That is why Today FM exists. It is a new challenge and the station is a new venture. It is doing well and catering well for an audience. That is just a suggestion of mine.

I am sure Deputy Tom Kitt will give a plug to this emerging star, David Kitt.

On that very issue, I thank the Vice Chairman for allowing me to come in. With a son in the business, I have learned much through him, and from many of his peers and contemporaries. There is massive talent in the country but many of them are struggling artists. We have a tremendous reputation for promoting artists here.

I thank both RTE and Today FM for the comprehensive presentations. I merely want to raise a few issues in this regard. On the quotas, to take up the point made by Deputy Ring, I wonder can we do even more on voluntary quotas where radio stations devote a certain percentage of airtime to new emerging Irish artists. I refer to what I call Irish-originating music. I would be talking about contemporary artists, many of whom Mr. O'Reilly has referred to. We are living in tough times. Clearly, the artists out there are depending on numbers coming to their performances. They are getting royalties from the music that is being played. I suppose I am anxious to know whether the witnesses can do even more from an artistic point of view.

My worry would be the move towards on-line music, on which they all have spoken with honesty. I would even go so far as to speak of the move towards mass media, for example, programmes such as "The X Factor". Such programmes are entertaining, but the truth is that in such productions, and that one in particular, which I watch, the songs are covers and they are being rehashed. It is a conveyor-belt type of music and is pure entertainment. Fantastic singers emerge from this, but meanwhile the artists to whom I refer, back in the studios and in their homes, are struggling and producing significant work. The representatives of RTE and Today FM are the ones who can make it happen for many of these artists.

Mr. O'Reilly is correct. He stated some of them will come and go. I am speaking in a general way because I have a love of music. I am asking that if we measure artistic merit versus this popular entertainment, where does RTE and Today FM see their role? I hope it is in promoting more genuine individual artists. Whether it be authors, painters or musicians of whom we speak today, there is a national duty, particularly on RTE, to fulfil that role. In that context, its mission statement could be expanded to prioritise Irish traditional music. As it stands, the mission statement is not strong enough.

The Irish Music Rights Organisation, IMRO, plays a very important role for artists by collecting fees from broadcasters but, as Deputy Ring said, the figures for 2008 show that 80% or more of that money left the country. There is nothing wrong with that as the responsibility of IMRO is simply to collect the money and groups such as U2 are based outside Ireland. Nevertheless, the figures show that there are not enough Irish artists on the airwaves. Mr. McMahon explained how the 2FM playlist works. How does it work on RTE1? Is there a committee system? I listen to radio a lot and I wonder why more Irish artists do not feature.

I welcome the fact that this meeting is taking place as this is an important subject. It is said that culture thrives at times of recession. We have a rich culture in the area of music and there is a huge responsibility on those present to promote it. Many members receive representations on the subject and, while the witnesses have made very comprehensive presentations, more can be done to help our struggling artists.

I take it the delegates are taking note of the questions.

I welcome the delegates and thank them for the presentations. I compliment RTE on a very successful series about music in two schools in my constituency, St. Agnes's and St. Ultan's. The series has had an impact above and beyond music and has given the whole community a boost. It was on radio and television and was a fabulous series.

What are the opportunities for increasing the amount of Irish-created music on the network? What impact does audience response have? We are all aware of programmes to which listeners can send requests but to what extent do broadcasters react to their audiences? It is important to determine the influence of listeners on the type of music which is played.

In the case of emerging artists, what dictates that artist A gets a slot but artist B does not? We often hear of successful artists describing how they got their break on such and such a programme and that, without it, they would not have achieved success. The factors which influence whether an individual is given air time or not are very important for their future careers. How do broadcasters decide what constitutes emerging talent? How is talent measured for the purposes of granting an artist a prime-time slot on radio or television?

I welcome the delegation. I have questions for each of them because I am a Today FM fan in the morning and listen to Ian Dempsey while keeping an ear to "Morning Ireland" to make sure the Government is still standing. Like all politicians, I have an ambition to appear in a positive light on "Gift Grub" and I would appreciate any help the delegates can give me in that regard. Later in the morning, I listen to Gerry Ryan. Politicians are constantly listening to radio stations, from RTE1 to Today FM and local stations. In this time of national crisis, we have an opportunity to promote indigenous industries across every sector and the Irish music industry is of great importance to us, employing huge numbers of people. In recent months, like other businesses, it has come across a number of difficulties as it tries to survive and there is now an opportunity for all radio stations to help the sector.

There was a discussion around the time Riverdance was set to become the act during the interlude in the Eurovision Song Contest and, as we know, it went on to become a phenomenal worldwide success. I acknowledge the huge efforts made by RTE, Today FM and others and their presentations illustrate the level of commitment they have. Some of the finest pieces of radio in recent years have been live performances.

I wish to address the problem of access for Irish acts. On "The Late Late Show" recently, Louis Walsh said there was a huge problem with access for Irish artists to radio stations. Is there a cap on the number of Irish acts played? According to section 25 of the Broadcasting Act 2009 any cap is self-imposed. Could we increase the amount of Irish music given airplay — perhaps to 40% from the figure of 20% which has been mentioned.

I could not say when I last heard David Kitt on the radio, nor the last time I heard Mary Black, but such artists attract huge numbers. Deputy Ring referred to Big Tom, and one could mention others such as Brendan Byrne, Bell X1 and The Coronas, all of which fill the halls in which they play. However, there seems to be a difficulty in getting to hear them on the airwaves.

According to IMRO, some 93% of royalties go abroad. This may be accounted for by the fact that some Irish artists are offshore. How much of these royalties do the delegates believe we can keep within the country?

Deputy Ring spoke about Lyric FM. The presenters on that station are very high profile and I am not sure of the cost of running it. It has a very loyal listenership but is there a possibility of a station that could cover all different genres of music? Perhaps RTE has a view on that.

Earlier contributors mentioned the situation in France, whose radio stations have a high level of national content in comparison with our own. Do the delegates have any comments on that point? I acknowledge the efforts made by RTE television and we are delighted that the majority of artists on "The Late Late Show" are Irish. That is as it should be as we have top class artists. There has been a great response to the new "UnderCurrents" series and RTE will have to look at ways of coping with it. The demand is there. There is a huge indigenous music industry but it is suffering at this point in time. If there are any suggestions for what the Oireachtas could do to help broadcasters from a commercial perspective, we would we glad to hear them. It is time to don the green jersey in all areas and I would love to promote Irish music in that context.

I thank the delegations for attending. Given the fact that Deputy Kenny will be the next Taoiseach, can I ask Mr. O'Reilly who will replace Ray D'Arcy when he emigrates? Perhaps there will be a role for him on "Gift Grub".

It is imperative that, despite the competition of commercial radio, there is promotion of indigenous music and Irish artists and musicians. That must be to be forefront of any music policy of either station. As a proud Cork man, I am happy to say in Cork we have great characters such as "Cha" and "Miah", Billy Connolly and Paddy Comerford and they have not been replaced. We do not hear of these people on the airwaves. Despite what Deputy Ring may say about the "All Ireland Talent Show" on Sunday nights, which is very good, it is driven by adversarial competition and a voting appeal which can be organised. Does one get talent on such a programme?

In the context of RTE in particular, the growth of local radio has forced a rethink in RTE's policy. I say that as one who used to work for RTE Cork before it was closed, which was one of the biggest mistakes RTE made. It was not replaced. It is a failure of RTE that it thinks the M50 is the beginning and end of Ireland. I do not direct that in any negative way towards the delegates but Ireland does not start and end in Dublin. It extends across the four provinces.

In his contribution Mr. John McMahon referred to RTE's role in Irish musical life and in promoting artists. I am concerned at the role RTE now sees for the RTE Vanbrugh String Quartet based in Cork. We have had correspondence from Mr. Goan and comments from Mr. Dawson head of corporate communications, relating to this issue. I would like a categoric assurance from the RTE delegates that the RTE Vanbrugh String Quartet will not be eliminated. It has had salary cut of 40%, while other performers have had a reduction of between 5% and less than 40%. Let us put the issue in context. We must be serious about promotion of music and culture — I have recently become a fan of Lyric FM. I was a Philistine until recently. When growing up I recall listening to Paschal Mooney on "Keep it Country" and his references to piking bales. We must be serious about the RTE Vanbrugh String Quartet. This quartet has had a chronological sequence of events since 1959 when it brought joy, entertainment and music to all parts of Ireland. This is becoming an issue not only in Cork but across the whole music industry. When I tried to raise the matter on an Adjournment debate in the Seanad it was ruled out of order because the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources was not responsible. I am pleased that the RTE representatives are appearing before the committee but I hoped Mr. Goan and Mr. Dawson would be present.

We appear to have a misguided or convoluted policy in this area. Since 1959 the RTE Vanbrugh String Quartet has been based in Cork. It has taken a 40% pay cut and has had the terms of its contract changed. Traditionally it had a five-year contract, later a three-year contract and now I understand it has a one-year contract but I may be wrong in that respect. If RTE is not serious about commissioning this type of music how can Chamber music flourish? The RTE Vanbrugh String Quartet has had 600 performances all over the country. The West Cork Chamber Music Festival in Bantry is an inspirational event and one which has built synergies across the world. The RTE Vanbrugh String Quartet has done this on the back of making a commitment to live in Cork and to achieving success.

I deliberately raised this issue today because there is no other forum in which I can do so. As Deputy Tom Kitt will be aware I raised this issue at another meeting of the committee and asked to have it put on the agenda. I want answers. This is about promotion of Irish music and Irish life. RTE as the national public service broadcaster has responsibility to maintain the orchestras, choirs and other cultural performers under its remit. Deputy Tom Kitt referred to IMRO and so on but it is imperative that we get answers today. We have a long-term residency issue, and a commitment to a professional group of musicians who are based in Cork, but who could conveniently be based in mainland Europe, and they have dedicated their music careers to the development of chamber music in Ireland. The cynic in me will say that if this group was based in Montrose in Dublin there would be no problem. The money would be available and they would have the contract but because it is based in Cork, and beyond the Pale, there is an issue. I accept I might be a cynic but I am a Cork man and I must look after my own.

The Senator has done well so far.

Go raibh maith agat. I resist the temptation to make a comment to the future Minister of State. The costs in the RTE budget for the string quartet are not extravagant, they are minimal in the context of the overall RTE budget. What is the commitment of RTE to its performing groups in 2010? I look forward to a reply and I may come back in.

Is mian liom fáilte a chur roimh an toscaireacht. Caithfidh mé a rá go raibh na tuairimí a chur na finnéithe os ár gcomhair inniu an-chabhrach ar fad. Táimid an-bhuíoch mar gheall ar sin.

In welcoming the delegations to the committee I thank them for their presentations which are helpful. They are of interest to us because as Deputy Connick said, when dealing with broadcasting, particularly music, people will constantly make their views known. That is healthy. It is also good that we are discussing this topic as an industry. It is an industry that is not just related to an art form because it interacts with tourism and the role that music plays in tourism is huge. We are aware of that from the various surveys which have been conducted. There is a folklore attached to the whole area of broadcasting and music. I do not know how many times I have heard people say that they played on 2RN in the GPO in Henry Street. For them it might have been 40 or 50 years ago but it was such an important event for them. Now I hear their sons and daughters say their parents played on 2RN. We should not under estimate the importance of that exposure for people. Whether they intend making a career of it is a different issue. It is important to remember what it means and the excitement of going on radio or television for the first time is huge and is an emotional experience. It is also a launching pad because people will say they heard someone last night, not in a local house or a pub, but on the national broadcasting network. We should not under estimate the continuity or the folklore attached to this. It is also important for those who want to make a career of music.

In Mr. John McMahon's presentation, page 5, a comma is missing, either accidentally or intentionally. I hope it is intentionally. The sentence reads: "Raidió na Gaeltachta's involvement with contemporary traditional and modern Irish music is long held and deep rooted." I hope it is intentional that there is no comma.

Mr. Ian Wilson

It is.

I am glad because we had a pre-session debate here about contemporary music which I think is a misnomer and a dated term. Traditional music is every bit as much contemporary today. One has only to look at the young performers, the whiz kids of the present generation, to see what they are achieving with traditional music and particularly what is being achieved internationally. No matter where one goes today people are looking for that.

Every form of music is important. We need to be particularly careful that we do not ghettoise music. It would be totally wrong to do that. I am glad there is no comma there, because that makes a particularly important statement. In recent times, an iconic figure, Ciarán Mac Mathúna, died. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam. Nobody can measure what he did for music. I am sure there are many other such people as well. It comes back to the folklore aspect. I have no doubt that Ciarán Mac Mathúna will be mentioned for decades when music in being discussed. He did things in a quiet unassuming way. In many ways he reflected the success of RTE because RTE together with Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, played a particularly super role for traditional music. I am of an age, when I can remember the small outside broadcasting unit arriving at a given location. This was meant to be fairly secret, but there would be hundreds waiting for Ciarán Mac Mathúna, wherever it was. He put together the archive, and instilled in each of those communities a pride in the music. In addition to tourism, there is the community aspect of the music. What has been done by RTE for local communities is significant — whether one listens to Céilí House with Kieran Hanrahan or Fáilte Isteach with Donnacha Ó Dualing — long may he continue. Donnacha came to Leinster House before Christmas and he met all the political parties and interviewed them. What I noticed was the respect shown to him and for RTE. I hope those type of programmes will continue. I am sure they will and I have no reason to think otherwise. I am always a little worried that we feel the world is changing and we have to change as quickly. That change is not necessarily the right change. Certain change is needed in business and in the media. I accept that, but there are some things that are beyond that type of change and we need to cherish them carefully. Those type of programmes not only serve a certain section of our community but they maintain that community and their interest in the music. I hope they will continue. That does not take from any of the competition programmes or whatever we might have at present.

May I give a little plug? RTE will transmit six television programmes in April from fleadh cheoil na hÉireann, which it has been doing for years. The fleadh ceoil is much more than music, it is a social commentary as well. One is dealing with the "fleadh" followers, which number 250,000 during a nine day festival, if we are talking industry, and generates €30 million for the economy. Let us bear in mind that there are 45 Fleadha Ceoil each year. This is an industry. I salute RTE; it has done a magnificent job. I am glad we have a national broadcasting service. It does not take from the independent stations and it does not take from the local stations.

To echo Deputy Connick's point, I am pretty sure there is no cap in the exposure for Irish music. The reason I appeal for as much and more exposure to music as possible is this. We have an "exclusive" right to the music of our country in the same way that we have an exclusive right to our national monuments. Nobody else can replicate or duplicate those. These are our strength. Our talent is our strength and in the same way as U2, or Riverdance capture the imagination of the world, no country has access to that in the preliminary stages of their development and that is the reason we need not worry about giving as much exposure as it requires.

To RTE, let me say "well done, and keep up the good work."

I would be a bit nostalgic if I say I regret the demise of the Paschal Mooney country and western show on RTE.

Any hope of me getting one?

I assure my broadcasting colleagues that I did not prime any comments in advance of this. I am very grateful for them, but I am beginning to think I am showing my age somewhat.

Go raibh mile maith agat. Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur freisin roimh muintir RTE agus muintir Today FM.

At the outset I declare an interest, in that I receive part of my income from RTE. I wish it were much more but as a life long broadcaster, the earlier comments about reductions hit a chord. I know that the reductions within RTE have been just as painful financially to those who are working there as in the wider population. That needs to be recorded as well. I compliment Mr. John McMahon on a wonderful presentation and his arrival as the head of RTE 2 has been widely welcomed and is already beginning to bear fruit. I compliment him on restoring Larry Gogan to the day time schedule. No more than Senator Ó Murchú's comment on the icons within RTE, such as the late Ciarán Mac Mathúna, ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam, Larry Gogan is equally an iconic figure. The next JNLR figures will no doubt reflect the huge popularity and affection there is for Larry. I am not ignoring Mr. Willie O'Reilly, chief executive, Today FM, but I am talking in the context of John McMahon's arrival at 2FM and Mr. Ian Wilson, who is a broadcaster of great distinction over many years. It is not widely known that it was Mr. Ian Wilson who discovered U2, even though Dave Fanning claims credit and never let on. They go back to that stage, and one of the legacies of the Dave Fanning show is that it nurtured burgeoning Irish talent.

I understand that the demographics are changing and Mr. Willie O'Reilly states that Today FM is focusing on the under 45s. On the basis of what I have read, it seems that in 2FM there is a demographic shift in terms of its programming output to a more mature audience who are still relatively young. We are talking about the same demographics as Today FM in that regard. Will it be considered that 2FM might revert to what it was during the first five or six years of existence? Senator Jerry Buttimer referred to “Keep it Country” which was broadcast on 2FM. At that time there was a great diversity in the station. I know it was a different time, and I which the committee to know that I am not touting for business.

Canvassing will disqualify you.

Thank you Senator for reminding me of that and I want to be very careful of what I say. I am curious to know that in light of the changes that are taking place in 2FM, whether Mr. John McMahon and his team and Mr. Ian Wilson are looking at the possibility of having more diversity in their evening schedules. They have quite correctly identified, as Mr. Willie O'Reilly has, that the prime time audience is between 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. That is when the stations make their money. The original concept of 2FM is that the station would be somewhat similar to BBC Radio 2. It is interesting to reflect on the fact that BBC Radio 2 launched some of the major Irish artists who are not be played that often on either Today FM or Radio 1, the Furey Brothers, Daniel O'Donnell, Foster and Allen, the Dubliners. All had significant chart success throughout the 1980s. Even in the present day Daniel O'Donnell regularly tops the album charts in the UK. He is not seen as a country music singer as such, but as a broad entertainer and I am not pitching here for him either. One will not hear Daniel O'Donnell on either Today FM or Radio 1 to any great extent. One certainly will not hear him on 2FM. I understand the reasons for all of this but this goes back to what Deputies Connick and Ring and Senator Ó Murchú said abut the different musical genres in this country and whether they are being reflected fairly in the radio schedules, notwithstanding the fact that stations operate in a commercial, competitive environment. The stations must try to keep their listeners because if they do not, they will not get advertising and if they not do get advertising, particularly in the case of Today FM, which is not subsidised in any way, jobs will be lost. Mr. O'Reilly comes from a public service background and he is probably best placed to understand the nuances between the public and private radio sectors. Will Mr. McMahon operate a more diversified schedule to include jazz, traditional music and country music? Can I make a plea that country music is the description used rather than country and western music, which is a Hollywood invention? There is a certain pejorative note attached to the term "country and western".

I applaud the presentations and I support both Mr. McMahon and Mr. O'Reilly in what they are doing in their own distinctive ways in supporting and encouraging Irish artists. Both stations are doing an exceptional job. Has either of them an opinion on the lack of impact of this wonderful work to encourage Irish artists on the singles and albums charts? For example, Jedward are at the top of the singles chart this week. Jedward are a unique phenomenon and they would have been at the top without airplay given the media attention they have generated. However, few Irish artists make it into the top 20 in the singles chart, which reflects downloads rather than sales nowadays.

The album chart is different because it reflects a more reflective view among record buyers in terms of what they want to purchase. They are strongly influenced by what they hear and see on radio and television. For example, while the top 20 album chart features pop-rock and contemporary music, it also has Michael Bublé at No. 2, which was also the best-selling album over Christmas in Ireland, and the High Kings. They were the only two major Irish artists included. The reason I have gone into detail on this is theory is the singles and album charts are supposed to reflect what people who listen to radio go out and buy but, in light of the what we have heard about the amount of music and the number of Irish artists being played, it does not have a connection with the charts. There may be a valid reason for this but, in a way, it is frustrating that if radio stations are promoting and encouraging Irish artists, it is not reflected in sales.

This goes back to the core of what was said about IMRO, which supports and encourages Irish songwriters because this is money for them and it is their living in many cases. There is an unstated bond between IMRO and the stations. IMRO can only do so much because it is a collection agency but I applaud the relationship between IMRO and RTE. Perhaps the organisation is not as involved Today FM but Mr. O'Reilly might comment on that.

I congratulate TG4, which is in the RTE family. It has run a regular country music talent show, which has been hugely successful, and credit to them for that. I do not seek more country music to be played but perhaps within the framework of what Mr. McMahon is attempting to do in 2FM, there might be room for more diversity in the evening schedule, which might reflect other types of music.

Senator Ó Murchú shares similar views. There is a tourist dimension to this and perhaps the radio stations will examine their summer schedules to see how they could promote home holidays through, for example, outside broadcasts, given both stations do a significant number of them. This is also a tourism committee and perhaps the two national broadcasters may be able to weave into their programming schedules in the late spring a way of reflecting the wonderful value available in our hotels and restaurants and the scenic value in Ireland. That might encourage more people to stay at home this year.

As Senator Ó Murchú said, radio has a tremendous impact. We have one of the highest radio audiences in the world. There is tremendous loyalty to radio in this country, which is not even matched in Britain. I compliment both presentations and I wish those involved well in what their doing. They have taken on a role they do not necessarily have to, despite what is being suggested about legislation, but they are doing that to good effect and it is benefiting Irish artists. I wish them continued success in the future.

I also welcome the delegation. Lyric FM is my default station, particularly in stressful times. There is noting like the soothing cadences of classical music and Irish composers.

The Deputy is listening to it a great deal lately.

My own favourite is the monks of Glenstal Abbey with their Gregorian chants. There is nothing like listening to that when one is in a tough corner.

The Deputy was listening to it last night.

I am glad Mr. O'Reilly mentioned one of my neighbours, Jerry Fish. He lives on one side of me and Richie Kavanagh lives on the other. He had a No. 1 with "Aon Focal Eile". However, my favourite song of his is "Face Her for Mount Leinster" because I live under Mount Leinster. Contemporary Irish composers and musicians are vital to us in our communities and in the national interest.

I recently read in a Sunday newspaper about an Irish artist who can be e-mailed to compose a song. He will come to a person's dinner table and sing a little song. Will new media impact on the listenership of RTE and Today FM? How are they coping with new media? I was a bookseller in a former life. Booksellers are under severe threat because of e-readers such as Kindle. People can access hundreds of novels on their Iphones. How will RTE and Today FM counteract the hidden invader that might bypass them and go straight to the consumer? Brevity is the soul of wit and, therefore, I am finished.

Reference was made to the RTE string quartet. Senators Keaveney and Ó Murchú were members of the education committee ten years ago and we received great help from RTE when researching the role of music in education. I hope it will remain an aim of RTE to be involved in education. In the same way the Abbey Theatre goes on tour, the string quartet or the RTE Orchestra could go on tour. They put a great deal of work into a report we published at the time.

I refer to the issue of access to radio for Irish artists. Mr. O'Reilly said Irish artists comprised 27% of Today FM's playlist, according to its last audit. One would like to hear more Irish artists on both stations. Many local radio programmes are based on requests. Galway must have five local stations serving various parts of the county but much of their content consists of music requests which are somewhat similar to the hospital requests played on RTE years ago. I am often amazed to listen the presenters on these stations. Sometimes when an e-mail comes in requesting a song for somebody the presenter will tell the audience he does not have it to hand but that he will play it in the following hour or on the next show. I am aware that requests can be manipulated but the system gives us an idea of what people are thinking.

In regard to RTE's tours of the country, great work was done by Ciarán MacMathúna and Séamus Ennis, to mention two people I met in my own time. I was flattered to be part of a ceilí band featured on Ciarán MacMathúna's programme until I was told that he recorded everybody, good, bad or indifferent. The late Liam Clancy said he could not sing, dance or play an instrument but he had a great feel for Irish music. He said of Mountbellew, which is one of the biggest towns near me, that it was hard to leave. What he meant by this was that he gave it a few days when he went on tour. I do not expect RTE to follow that tradition today but we would like to see its presenters in rural areas as often as possible.

Reference was made to the good relationship between IMRO and RTE. Yesterday we debated the problems faced by businesses because of high rents and unbreakable leases. Perhaps we can invite representatives of IMRO and PPI to a future meeting to indicate whether they are reducing their pricing structures. I accept that artists have to live but this must be balanced against what businesses can take. The uses of royalties are being widened. I propose that we discuss that issue at a future meeting.

Cuirim fáilte roimh na hionadaí. Politicians listen to the radio more than the average person because we travel so extensively and it is not advisable to watch television while driving. I commend all radio stations because all we have to do is press a button to tune to a new station. They are all doing their bit to promote Irish music.

In regard to Mr. O'Reilly's contribution, it is great to hear that Today FM has increased its quota from 20% to 27%. I am sure that is appreciated by Irish people who are involved in music.

Labhrás Ó Murchú spoke about Ciarán MacMathúna. I should be careful how I say this but his was the only programme that could keep me in bed on a Sunday morning. Séamas Ennis also made a significant contribution to Irish music and Proinsias Ó Conluain was a pioneer in regard to the music and folklore of my part of the country. These people went out on the highways and byways to collect music. We not only had Irish music on the radio but we also had dancing. I remember the Irish dancing on "Take the Floor".

I make particular mention of what Raidió na Gaeltachta achieved since its establishment almost 40 years ago. It is exceeding in spades its remit of promoting Irish music and has succeeded in creating an archive of Irish music and song that would otherwise have been lost. It went to the people on the highways and byways and islands and collected music and songs from those who are no longer with us. We should recognise this contribution.

Radio stations have helped to promote musicians from my area, such as Altan, Clannad and Enya, as well as country and western singers such as Daniel O'Donnell by giving them the oxygen they require.

I do not have any serious questions to ask. I would like Raidió na Gaeltachta to be given the facilities it requires to continue its work. It has expanded beyond promoting Irish music and song to include international and contemporary music on Anocht FM. When I was a member of the station's board in the 1970s prior to my election to the Dáil, controversy arose over whether English lyrics should be broadcast. There was wall-to-wall opposition to that proposal and the change that has since been introduced took courage. It has turned out to be an enlightened decision which gave Raidío na Gaeltachta a completely new audience of young people. I applaud all those who played a part in the decision.

Long may I continue to listen to the representatives' radio stations as I make the weekly journey between County Donegal and Dublin.

I am sure Senator Keaveney listens to the radio on her way up to Dublin from her Donegal base.

No, I sing to myself. The headline in my local newspaper is Keaveney is on the fiddle but that refers to my involvement in a traditional music festival in my hometown which begins tomorrow night. If anybody wants to give the festival a boost on Today FM or RTE, I would welcome it. We are looking for as many tourists as possible in our area and to that end are putting on a traditional festival over the weekend with music in all the pubs and clubs.

We do not do enough to put live music on air. I understand the concept of contemporary music in the strictest sense. Much of what is going on in tiny villages could have a national resonance. Far be it for me to suggest that between us we could provide a bit of fun some night but this place is full of musicians who do not get much exposure. That is a dangerous proposition, however.

On Saturday night, Maireád Ní Mhaonaigh will be given the award for Donegal person of the year. We are proud of the success of her band, Altan, both nationally and internationally. When it visited places like Tokyo, it was mobbed by fans and people who wanted to buy its cds. A lot of Altan music appears to have been played last week. Interest in the band crosses the divide between the traditional and the country and western brigades.

My problem as a musician is that while we are good at supporting people once they become professional we are not as good with prospective musicians who are younger than 18 years of age. I do not know how we are supposed to produce musicians. It is assumed that one simply wakes up some day able to sing or play an instrument and all of a sudden can get tax breaks. It has been a very tough process even to get a small amount of money for marching bands but are they not the people who will become the performers of the future? We should be doing more in this regard. As Deputy Michael Kitt stated, we should take the orchestra throughout the country. It is made up of approximately 100 people. That amounts to 33 sets of trios in any given town. If it visits 33 schools there would be a great opportunity for those schools.

I will never forget the visit of Hugh and Eithne Tinney to Carndonagh community school when I was small. I was at grade five piano level but I believed I could rule the world. They came and played so easily all the material I was struggling to play. That remained in my head. Then someone from the RTE orchestra asked if anyone could play an oboe. I could play the clarinet so I said I would try to and I was able to get a note but I could never forget the experience. I am trying to give the delegation a sense of the possibilities that exist if we had the ability to direct the orchestra out. I realise it costs a fortune but in the longer term there would be a positive influence on young musicians who are struggling to get through their scales and the Royal Irish Academy grade system. That experience was something I never forgot.

Reference was made to a documentary on Janet Harbison broadcast over the weekend. She has moved to Limerick and set up her harp school there. Ian Wilson and other composers have come from Belfast to live in this neck of the woods. Many people appear to have moved from North to South. Has anyone carried out an analysis to establish if it is simply the tax incentive that brings people here? We should commend the fact that we attract leading people in their fields to the country. However, we should try to get to that step earlier and make interventions.

I completed university in the North. The reason I turned down the opportunity to go to Trinity College or UCD was because I would have had to pay the equivalent of €20 or €30 per half an hour for tuition in each instrument and I was playing three instruments at the time. However, in the North this was all given for free as part of the course. In the South, we expect people to reach a certain standard and only when they become something do we give them the breaks and support.

Deputy White referred to artistic rights. Reference was made to copyright but the issue is the right of creative artists, which is under severe threat across the spectrum from writer to performer. The Council of Europe has carried out work in this area. Recently, I met a person who has written 11 books. Someone scanned them onto the Internet and he can never sell his books again because anyone can download them. The same applies for musicians. There is much discussion of copyright. Michael Jackson held the copyright to The Beatles catalogue, but that does not make it any better. This should be the subject of more exploration.

I refer to music documentaries. I realise I have focused on RTE Radio 1 which gives an indication of what I listen to. When out for a walk one day I listened to a documentary on music in prisons. One need not have spent time in prison to have felt an affinity and to realise it was a very good documentary. More should be done to awaken people's interest in various types of media and music.

Deputy McGinley referred to collecting music in the islands and by-ways. One may suggest that is simply an old-fashioned idea but Béla Bartók was a composer who did that 100 years ago. His music became the contemporary music of the time. He took the old music and made it into something new and surely that is something we should support.

I refer to the Council of Europe. I intend to begin a report on the way in which music is used as a weapon to perpetuate conflict. Often we think of music as a tool for reconciliation but in our country if a Catholic hears a Lambeg drum, what does he think? If a Protestant hears a bodhrán what does he think? However, Riverdance married the two and no one noticed. This is very relevant not only to music, but to the situation in the North and the need to try to overcome parades and cultural issues. There are opportunities within television and radio to examine the same old issues in a new way. Much work is under way to examine the issue of music and conflict resolution. The delegation represents media that could take on this issue, give it a different flavour and focus it to try to use music as a tool for peace rather than a weapon for conflict.

Before I call on the witnesses to speak I thank them for the very comprehensive reports provided. It is good to note that the minimum quota has been achieved at least. People have referred to Séamus Ennis. For those who are not aware, there is now a cultural centre in honour of Séamus Ennis in Fingal in my constituency. He was well-renowned from Finglas to north Dublin. I congratulate Fingal County Council and the Arts Council and others that contributed to this project.

I refer to the promotion of Irish music in general. I respect that 2FM is a commercial organisation.

Mr. Willie O’Reilly

The station is Today FM.

My apologies, I meant to say Today FM. It must live by advertising. I refer to the need to distinguish ourselves from the rest of Europe. The things that make us Irish and not British, French or German are our language, music, song and dance. It should not be too shameful to suggest the producers and presenters of the stations in question should say that we are Irish and proud of our music, culture and language. Many young people tend to denigrate Irish music as opposed to that of pop culture, including American and British influences. We should not be afraid to highlight what is Irish and say that we are proud of it.

In the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s, before the intense competition within the radio business emerged, we promoted such groups as Horslips, The Pogues and Thin Lizzy, all of which had a Celtic pop style. The world at large believed it was good because it was promoted, people heard it and decided that it was not bad. The world realised this and the irony is such music remains good. Recently, we have seen Horslips reforming. Deputy Ring referred to 2,000 people turning up to Castlebar to see them. Many people turned up in Belfast and in the O2 to see them as well. Let us try to promote Ireland as a nation and the things we value.

I refer to the Eurovision. We sent a turkey to represent us in Europe. I respect that people made a choice but it absolutely denigrated people on the international stage and I was not very proud that night. The act did not achieve much support from our European neighbours. We recognise that to win Eurovision one must be in a political alliance, especially involving the eastern bloc. If we are to promote Irish musicians and music, there should be a live person involved. The delegations have many questions to get through.

Mr. Willie O’Reilly

I am happy to speak first and give my esteemed colleagues a chance to carry on the division of labour. Only two weeks ago, I sat beside Séamus Ennis, albeit in bronze, in the Naul and it is a fine establishment. It is a lovely tribute to a great Irish musician. I refer to some of the strands of the discussion. If the committee does not mind I will finish by leaving the committee with some challenges. Is that okay?

This is a two-way process

Mr. Willie O’Reilly

We face some challenges and perhaps opportunities have been staring us in the face but we have missed them. I will address them in the way in which they have presented. Some years ago, I was chairman of Highland Radio and I am familiar with all the good work done there. It is now under Charlie Collins, who has been there a long time. It plays a broad spectrum of music, from folk to traditional to pop music and whatever. There is a better home for that in local radio, perhaps as it is a response to the demand for local traditional music and people are closer to their audience than we are at a national level. It also seems to sit more comfortably with local radio that the output is more diverse. The Deputy will be aware that in Donegal Highland Radio does a great job in that regard.

On the 20% issue in order that people understand it, there is some question mark over this enforcement of a cap, as it was referred to, and whether that would stand up under EU regulations. We do not really want to go there. Certainly, Today FM is not interested in challenging this in Europe. We are happy to accept it.

There are some caveats to it. First, we still need artists coming through because if we do not have them, we cannot play that amount. That has been a real issue on a number of occasions and I will explain why. The 20% is composed of older Irish artists if we play older music and one will hear Van Morrison, Thin Lizzy and U2 mentioned, but what about the younger artists such as Laura Izibor? A strange phenomenon has happened since Deputy Tom Kitt was busking around town. In Deputy Tom Kitt's day, one could not have a professional career without the support of the music industry or a contract, and access to recording facilities were incredibly expensive. Today, one can go into one's bedroom to record on 24-track digital and produce a CD for presentation to the radio station. That is both a great opportunity for young people and an incredible challenge for us.

We get a great deal of material from people about whose depth of sincerity and wish to carve out a career for themselves we do not know. Like going to the races, we do not know what we are backing. Sometimes it is just the creative urge of youth realised in a CD put in an envelope and brought to us. There is no media plan, album plan or recording plan. That is fine, but we need to see and support people who want to come into the industry, see longevity in it and in a sense want to be stars, whether in traditional, country, pop, rock or whatever music. That has changed dramatically. I find it a challenge. I lecture young people on this occasionally, and they all are able to come up with a song the following weekend. How we deal with these people is a challenge to us.

The point about the royalties going abroad surprised me and came as a bit of a shock because I thought if we played 20% Irish music, that 20% would come here. I can only say I am happy to look at it again. Deputy Tom Kitt mentioned that the fact it is going abroad does not necessarily mean it is not going to Irish artists. If the music publishers are registered abroad or the copyright is abroad, it may well filter back into this country. It is something we will certainly look at.

Deputy Tom Kitt said not to ghettoise the music. We do not ghettoise the music. There is nothing more patronising to Irish music than to say that, late on Friday night when "The Late Late Show" is on, we have got an hour of Irish radio. That does not do any good. The most real way we can support Irish artists is by giving them continuous play in prime time. That is how one does it, but it is difficult to get into that space. That is the root to success. With digital and everything that was mentioned, it is all changing, but what promotes real success is continuous structured primetime airplay on FM radio. It is still very important. Let us not ghettoise it, as I stated. Let us ensure Mundy or whoever is played next to, Florence and the Machine, rap artists or with whoever they fit in.

Playlist committees were mentioned. I am not sure what happens in RTE, which I am sure has a system. We have a playlist committee which meets every week and decides the core playlist artists. For the committee's information, I picked up this week's. We have 31 songs on our current playlist — these are the high-rotation songs — of which nine are Irish. I will not list them, but among them are The Coronas, Delorentos, Damien Leith, Ollie Cole, Julie Feeney and Super Extra Bonus Party. They represent approximately 30% of the current playlist. It does not mean they get 30% of the airplay.

Somebody else asked what research we do. We are a business. We do a significant amount of research. The committee would be flabbergasted at the amount. We do on-line research where we have 300 people who every month listen to 20 to 25 songs that we play to them and they tell us what they think of those songs. We ask them key questions such as whether they like them, whether they love them, and whether they want to hear more or less of them. In that way, we construct a profile of songs and find out whether they are growing, whether we should be supporting them or whether they should be taken off air. We transition them from their moment of inception to their moment of obscurity. We also bring professional judgment to bear on that because we ourselves are professionals in the industry. Sometimes with a song we hear that tests badly, we think we just need to keep pushing it because people will like it and it will be a great record.

I should not say this but I remember years ago at a playlist committee in RTE, where I worked, somebody came in with a song which started with a very low drum track. It went on, there was a voice floating over it singing about something in the air tonight, and then there was a big drum roll. Our head of music at the time said we would not play it because it would never be successful. The song, by Phil Collins, was No. 1 the following week. That is what happens. There is sedition as well in our industry. Artists come along who are hugely successful and we do not spot them. We accept that as well.

We were asked whether the cap could be increased. It could be but I do not think that would help. It would be far better that the committee could look us in the eye and ask real questions. Do we at least comply with the 20% requirement and do we comply with it in spirit as well? The spirit is probably ensuring contemporary artists feature in that 20% and get primetime airplay.

On whether we could adopt the French or Canadian models, they are worth looking at. Canada is a much bigger territory and it is almost the case that it is composed of many different countries. It is difficult, therefore, for us to get our head around it.

On the string quartet in Cork, I will not answer if the committee does not mind. Cork, as the committee will be aware, and Roy Keane feature regularly on "Gift Grub" and we have not forgotten the rebel county.

Does Mr. Keane play in a quartet?

Mr. Willie O’Reilly

No. I believe there are no Irish people in the quartet. I have had strong thoughts on traditional music for a long time and how it is catered for in the independent sector. If Senator Ó Murchú does not mind, I will come to that at the end.

I have an engagement at the Joint Committee on Transport where Mr. Michael O'Leary and Aer Lingus are attending to debate hangar 6, which is topical in my constituency. I suggest that Deputy McGinley take the Chair. Is that agreed? Agreed. I thank the delegation.

Deputy Dinny McGinley took the Chair.

Mr. Willie O’Reilly

Senator Mooney asked whether the charts reflect airplay. The honest answer is, increasingly less so. The music we play on air is what our listeners want to hear on air. What they buy is something different. Traditionally, that has been the experience. For example, the Wolfe Tones were huge sellers of albums in Ireland in the 1970s and early 1980s. They never got airplay on any radio station in the country. What is bought and what is played is quite different.

Michael Bublé will open here at the Aviva Stadium and he is No. 1 in the charts. He probably got two airplays on Today FM. He is not an artist we feature much. There is a dichotomy.

Mr. Willie O’Reilly

I think it is because purchasing is something about which they feel intense, and they are often older people. I do not completely understand it, I must be honest.

Neither do I. That is why I asked the question.

Mr. Willie O’Reilly

Sometimes there are unknown unknowns, as former US Secretary of Defence, Donald Rumsfeld, said. There are three ideas on which I thought the committee might reflect and which might help it. One of the things we could do is promote Ireland as a destination for international recording artists. That is something that would be wonderful for us to do. We spoke of tourism. Do we understand that Shania Twain, a country artist of sorts, has recorded albums here? AC/DC has recorded albums here.

Mr. Rory Coveney

Michael Jackson recorded an album here.

Mr. Willie O’Reilly

If we promoted our recording studios international artists would come here, which would raise the quality of our studios and make them cooler and more hip. That, in turn, would increase the choice available to domestic artists and bring down the price.

Many international film producers avail of the benign tax legislation to make films here. Are we active in promoting the use of Irish music by Irish artists in those films? Kila wrote the soundtrack to "The Secret of Kells", which is nominated for an Oscar and we should promote our facilities by ensuring that people who have tax clearance here can see the wealth of material we have.

I agree with Senator Ó Murchú, and have said so on many occasions, that it is a shame that one will scarcely find traditional music, such as that of Ó Riada, Séamas Ennis and the DJ Ciarán Mac Mathúna, anywhere on the national airwaves and certainly not in Dublin. That presents a challenge to the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland. It should be possible to set up a station to encompass music of that nature. Spectrum is difficult to get nationally but it should certainly be possible in Dublin. I am not an expert in traditional music but I am aware that it is in huge decline in England and Germany because it is not supported in the popular arts so we should nurture it.

Why is traditional music not on Today FM? I do not know, but the members of this committee should quiz the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, which has the remit to grant licences, on the issue. There is adequate frequency in Dublin and there should be nothing to stop it happening. We will have a classic rock station in Dublin next year but there is no great appetite for it. Phantom FM is having a poor trading year and Classic Rock will not even do as well as that. On the other hand, we could have a contemporary traditional music station next year.

What about Ray D'Arcy?

Mr. Willie O’Reilly

We have an issue in that regard and I will get back to Enda on it.

Mr. John McMahon

If people want to hear traditional music across Ireland Raidió na Gaeltachta has been playing it for almost 40 years. It can be heard clearly in Dublin and I encourage members to tune in at any time. Apart from that, I agree with almost every word Mr. O'Reilly said. Much is being done but much more can be done by the independent sector and RTE.

Several comments were made about new media and their impact on the way people consume and listen to music. It is a huge issue for radio and musicians, if music can be acquired free via LimeWire or illegal portals and people are amassing huge collections in this way. I spoke to a group of transition-year students this week and each had more than 1,000 songs on their iPods but none had ever bought a song on-line and most had only two or three CDs. They listen to radio but get their stuff from Myspace and other sources and the question of how the music industry can continue to function in that context is a huge issue for everyone.

RTE and the independent sector are playing their part in finding new acts and Mr. Wilson will talk about how we deal with acts on the verge of commercial success. Senator Keaveney also asked how we handled new acts. A huge amount is being done on RTE children's television and programmes such as "Classic Jam" introduce bands made up of transition-year students to large Irish and international acts for a week's coaching. "Eye 2 Eye" invites younger kids of ten, 11 or 12 years of age into a studio where older musicians talk to them about learning to write songs and so on.

The 2008 figures for performing groups show that there were 39 educational performances, 14 workshops and 32 pre-concert talks across the country. It involves a big group of people and it is difficult to move them around but a great deal is being done. Our radio shows travel a great deal and we are in Cork for breakfast tomorrow morning. Mr. O'Reilly's programmes also travel around. I agree with the importance of getting out there and meeting the audience, either generally or on musical matters. We change the media landscape by finding other ways of engaging with our audience to make sure it is not just about a brand new song from a new artist. Instead, it offers listeners the chance to get something from a radio station that they cannot get from downloading a file, whether that means taking part in live sessions, meeting a band for a question and answer session or recording at Oxegen.

Mr. Ian Wilson

We have an ongoing policy of high-quality recording. The standard recording work we do is very different from most other radio stations. We have fully equipped recording studios whereas many stations tend to just throw a couple of microphones in front of an artist, meaning what they produce is rubbish. The standard of what we produce is so good that it could be put on a CD tomorrow. Our recording facilities are of a standard that other stations cannot afford, because we spend money to make them of a very high quality. In live recordings we use nothing but the highest international recording standards. We are prepared to spend a great deal of money in developing the quality of our recordings rather than simply concentrating on quantity. We also pay a great deal of money to performers and last year paid €35,000 in direct fees to young Irish artists.

Mr. John McMahon

This excludes the IMRO payments.

Mr. Ian Wilson

This is nothing to do with royalties but is in the way of fees for their work. It would help Irish artists enormously if all radio stations in the country committed themselves to dealing with the Musicians' Union of Ireland and paying artists for performances because I doubt if many radio stations pay even 1 cent to Irish artists when they bring them in to perform. That is a serious issue as nobody expects to do a day's work and not be paid for it. It is not satisfactory to bring performers in to fill the airwaves with their material and then not pay them. It is not good enough to say: "We are giving you a bit of exposure — good luck." If one wants people to earn a living in this business one has to pay them money.

Aside from live music, concert recordings at festivals and studio recordings, we also follow through on our on-line services and digital stations to get more extensive coverage of local music. We are very conscious of our role in exporting and we make sure we service as much of our musical production as possible to our European Broadcasting Union partners. Last year we covered the IMRO stage at Oxegen, recording 31 Irish artists in co-operation with the BBC in Northern Ireland. It is also important that we approach this from a 32-county basis and that we minimise production costs and maximise output to ensure Irish artists, North and South, get the maximum exposure, both on BBC airwaves in the North and on RTE in the South. We do not recognise any distinction across the Border in the production of Irish music. As far as we are concerned, we are one island and the BBC in Northern Ireland shares this view.

Co-operation with the European Broadcasting Union is very important for providing access. The music business is dominated by London and Los Angeles and is an Anglo-US operation. One of the important things we have done through the European Broadcasting Union is to try to build a non-London-Los Angeles axis in the music business in Europe. We have succeeded to a greater or lesser extent in this regard. Perhaps the language of pop music is English. That is inevitable but there have been serious successes for people singing in Norwegian, Swedish and German and we would like to be part of that. We do not want to be linked to this Anglo-American model of music production.

The Deputy mentioned the fact that 93% of royalties are paid outside the State. Part of that is the fact that U2, Boyzone, Westlife, Enya, The Cranberries, Van Morrison and every other Irish artist is technically an export from the UK or the US. If one looks at the figures, none of these turn up as an Irish music export because they are not registered here. Their publishers and mother record labels are registered in London, Paris, Los Angeles or New York. Boyzone are part of the UK export statistics for music. That is an aberration because we are tied into the British music business lock, stock and barrel. Almost every record company here is a branch of the system in London. Music publishers are all controlled from Los Angeles, New York or London. They are not controlled in Ireland and, therefore, any statistics about royalties and payments are nonsensical. They do not reflect what is going on. This reflects the basis of the international music business. It has nothing to do with what is happening here.

The music business in Ireland is largely an import driven operation. The vast majority of money in the business is exported. There are 15,000 people in the O2 every week but the vast bulk of the money is going straight out of the country and if we are serious about developing Irish music, we have to come up with a better and much more coherent business model for exporting Irish music and promoting it internationally. It is not just the radio stations that are not doing it. We are so remiss in promoting Irish music. I go to international festivals and I see the Danes, Swedes, Dutch, French, Germans and Poles place a massive emphasis on exporting music through organised campaigns. They have had music export councils for years. We only started this a few years ago. We are not at the races in international music promotion.

The second largest music exporter in Europe after Britain is Sweden. We do not even feature in that league table. Sweden is not much bigger than Ireland, yet its indigenous music business is based on export support and not on quotas or artificial devices. There has been a commitment over a long period. There is no point in blaming radio stations for this. We need to get out from under the shadow of London, establish our export business properly and work through consistently from development of music through our radio stations to export and music production. Until we do that, there is no point blaming us for what goes on.

The Canadian Government introduced measures to promote their artists abroad. I agree with Mr. Wilson's final point. I am pleased he is giving us something to reflect on. That is a major issue, which we need to examine, to promote our talent abroad.

The problem is the Canadian model would breach the Treaty of Rome. Canada has a quota system, under which stations are confined to playing music by a Canadian record company, publisher, composer or artist. One must meet two of those four criteria to be played on state radio. We do not have that structure but we would breach the treaty if we introduced it. Mr. O'Reilly touched on this. It is anti-competitive by giving preference to one country over another but it is hurting us.

Mr. Ian Wilson

The French model was mentioned. It is not in breach of European competition regulation because it is based on language. A total of 40% of music played on radio must be in French. We could introduce a similar quota and insist that 40% of music played on Irish radio must be in Irish. We could do that tomorrow but it would not do much for a competitive industry.

Mr. John McMahon

An Irish only channel would ghettoise the industry and we prefer to see the music integrated across the schedule from The Bothy Band and Tommy and Hector to Scary Éire and the vast majority of music. If the DAB national airwaves were freed up and spectrum was available, we could be able to do more in the longer term but, currently, the DAB network only covers 37% of the country. There are many more things we can do.

With regard to the Vanburgh Quartet, a review is ongoing in RTE. I have nothing else I can add. If there is anything else we can do in writing and so on, we are more than happy to do so.

I thank everybody for their contributions. I particularly thank Mr. McMahon, Mr. Wilson, Mr. Lenihan, Mr. Coveney, Mr. O'Reilly and Mr. Hardy. We had an interesting, fruitful and productive exchange of views. We understand where they are coming from and, hopefully, they understand some of our problems.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.10 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 10 March 2010.
Top
Share