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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 2 Jun 2010

Rugby Television Rights: Discussion

I welcome the delegation from the IRFU. I invite it to offer a summary of the presentation, if possible, which will be followed by an exchange with members of the committee. I welcome Mr. Philip Browne, chief executive of the IRFU, Mr. Derek McGrath, commercial and marketing director, IRFU, and Mr. John Feehan, chief executive, Six Nations Rugby Limited. I welcome, in particular, Mr. Tom Kiernan who has given a lifetime of service to Irish rugby and was a distinguished player and administrator. He deserves a special welcome. He is also a Corkman. I understand he was the architect of the Heineken Cup. He is not part of the front-line delegation today, but I warmly welcome him to the meeting.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The committee is aware of the delegation's opposition to the Minister, Deputy Ryan's proposals with regard to the designation of Heineken Cup and RBS Six Nations matches as being free-to-air in terms of television coverage. The delegation is concerned that if they were to be implemented, the future of Irish rugby would be threatened. It is of the view that a sum of €12 million would be lost to the rugby authorities. The committee's role is to explore these issues. I welcome the members of the press, as there is much public interest in these issues which we hope to explore. We will dig deep behind the figures given.

I have had a brief discussion with the Minister who will be available to meet the committee in due course. That is the nature of our democratic process. This is a healthy exercise.

We applaud the IRFU in bringing Irish rugby to the excellent state it is in. We wish it well in moving to the Aviva Stadium. The committee supports all sports, especially their development for our young population. I invite Mr. Browne and his team to make their presentation. We are hear to listen and put questions.

Mr. Philip Browne

I concur with the Chairman that this meeting is part of a very healthy exercise. I thank him and members of the committee for inviting us to make a brief presentation and affording us the opportunity to answer any questions members may have on the free-to-air proposal, on which submissions are being sought.

This is a complex issue. I, therefore, ask for the committee's indulgence, as we will probably require slightly longer than the normal five minutes to make our opening submission.

Accompanying me are: Mr. John Feehan, chief executive, Six Nations Rugby Limited; Mr. Derek McGrath, chief executive, European Rugby Cup Limited; Mr. Pat FitzGerald, chairman of the IRFU's commercial and marketing committee; and Mr. Padraig Power, its commercial and marketing director.

I will outline the IRFU's relationship with Six Nations Rugby and ERC before I ask Mr. Feehan and Mr. McGrath to briefly outline their assessment of the effects of the free-to-air proposal. These two bodies are completely independent of the IRFU. We are but one of the six partners sitting at the table of Six Nations Rugby and ERC. Each partner has its own objectives which it guards jealously. We may be partners, but we are also fiercely competitive in striving for success on the field of play because success on the field is what drives the popularity of our sport in the respective countries.

Six Nations Rugby and ERC are both major business enterprises in their own right, with their combination making for two incredibly powerful and successful sports entities. This, in turn, makes for a very delicate relationship balance, one, as the record will show, which has been threatened on different occasions. The IRFU has no role in the commercial negotiations of these two bodies. As a partner, we are the recipient of revenues based on a pre-agreed formula and core, in respect of which our ability is to bring various properties to the table. We receive significantly more from the commercial element of the partnership, including television money, than we are capable of generating here in Ireland as a market. A comparison with Ireland and the European Union of previous days would be reasonable when Ireland was a net recipient of funding from the Union, with the EU grant far outstripping the remittances from Ireland to the Union. With that background, I ask Mr. John Feehan to outline the position of Six Nations Limited.

Mr. John Feehan

I thank the members of the committee for their time today. As they are probably aware the Six Nations is made up of six unions, England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, France and Italy. Our headquarters are based in Dublin and I am the chief executive. The body is completely independent of the IRFU and has nothing to do with it other than it is one of six. It is primarily a commercial union between national rugby governing bodies where the smaller and bigger unions have agreed to share the media and other revenues together. This did not happen easily and we have had many problems over the years. It took us almost two and a half years to negotiate to get the larger unions to agree to do this and it was a very significant process. Thankfully, having agreed to the arrangements it has been a very successful situation with our turnover from media alone at approximately €74 million this year. The IRFU receives €11 million of this €74 million from the central pot, while only approximately €3 million, 4%, of our total media budget is actually generated in Ireland.

It is and has always been a very delicate relationship between the rugby bodies on the Six Nations committee. It has been broken twice, that I know of, to date, once by England in 1997 when it nearly went it alone with Sky — in fact for a number of years its matches were only available on Sky — and again in 2001 it nearly broke.

As far as television is concerned, the Six Nations always has a preference for free-to-air television and our matches will be broadcast on RTE for the next three years. However, we need a competitive market in order to ensure we get full value for our product. The proposal for A-listing Ireland's games in the Six Nations will in the future ensure a non-competitive Irish market, but far more importantly it will interfere very negatively with the balance of competition in the UK market. Whether we like it or not, broadcasters such as ESPN and Sky view the Irish and UK markets as one English-speaking market. Given that almost 60% of the €74 million I mentioned earlier comes from the UK market, this is extremely important. Although we are on free-to-air television with the BBC in the UK, and that will be the case for another three years also, we need to have this competitive market to ensure we achieve full value for our rights.

The A-listing proposal in Ireland makes this overall market less attractive to key television market players in the pan UK and Irish market, which will lead them either not to bid or more likely bid significantly less than they would otherwise have done. If this happens there will be serious consequences for the Six Nations overall and more particularly very serious consequences for the IFRU. It will split our delicate balance in the Six Nations and the larger countries will look to preserve their own revenues at the expense of the small ones by insisting that each territory keeps its own revenue and media rights and there would be no single media pot. In essence that means the Irish pot would be €3 million with the balance outside that. Our commercial union, which has worked together to ensure a better deal for all of us, would break down and effectively the IRFU would be on its own to row its own boat.

I do not wish to be overly dramatic about this, but it is a very serious problem for us and will become a serious issue for the IRFU. I am aware that the members may have a number of questions and I will answer them later when appropriate.

Mr. Philip Browne

I will ask Mr. Derek McGrath to speak on behalf of European Rugby Cup Limited.

Mr. Derek McGrath

I thank the members of the committee for their time. ERC is a corporation of unions, federations and club bodies across six countries. It is a private company with 16 staff based here in Dublin. I am the chief executive. Some 44 professional clubs compete in the two competitions, the Heineken Cup and the Amlin Challenge Cup, of which four are Irish clubs. These competitions are viewed in more than 120 countries. This year more than 1.5 million spectators have come to our matches and this year the Heineken Cup marked its 10 millionth fan.

The basic premise for the company is that all the clubs and unions agree that television and sponsorship rights are centrally held with ERC and commercial revenues are divided on a fixed and a meritocracy-based allocation. Our function is to support the development of professional club rugby across Europe. Our three main roles are to derive financial return, governance of our tournaments and tournament organisation. The ERC central pot currently contributes more to the IRFU than the local market generates. ERC provides revenues of €5 million to the IRFU from the central pot. The Irish market generates €2 million for the ERC central pot, mainly from Sky and to a lesser extent from RTE. Irish rugby is therefore a net beneficiary, benefiting from the strong commercial returns generated in the English and French markets in particular.

Satellite broadcasters such as ESPN and Sky take an integrated approach to Ireland and the UK. This means that from a television market perspective the two territories are interdependent. When Sky first became a broadcast partner of ERC, it placed a very important value on exclusivity for the UK and Irish markets. In addition, the market drivers were Ireland and Wales in order to build subscription numbers, to be able to show Irish teams home and away to an Irish audience. Removing exclusivity through listing would dramatically reduce value and the financial deficit will not be replaced by free-to-air broadcasters.

From an ERC perspective, the worst case scenario would be that for the next cycle of negotiations, satellite broadcasters such as Sky or ESPN would view the Irish market as no longer of interest, which would then have a knock-on impact of their overall assessment of the Ireland and UK valuation. This would result in us being reliant on Irish free-to-air broadcasters to bid for the Irish rights, where the free market dynamics have changed. RTE would be the beneficiary but does not have the budget to replace the revenues that have been available from satellite broadcasters to date. Thus the Irish market would deliver less revenue to the central pot with the effect of upsetting the balance of the current dynamic whereby countries come to the table unencumbered and it would put the IRFU in a weaker negotiating position at the ERC table. It is not at all certain that a charitable view would be taken of the IRFU's dilemma.

In reviews taken by the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources in 2003 and 2006, the Heineken Cup was not warranted as of sufficient national importance and our view is that that position has not changed. We do not understand why the proposal considers that a Leinster versus Treviso pool match could be an event of national importance. The recent review in the UK did not consider that the Heineken Cup should be listed in any part of the UK, including Northern Ireland, the home of Ulster, one of the competing Irish teams referred to in the proposal.

ERC has a commercial imperative, but it has also respected the needs of each marketplace, which is why we have kept back "as live" rights for RTE where matches involving Irish teams can be shown two hours after the final whistle. We believe we have worked very hard to sustain the growth of a tournament, which has generated great enjoyment and success for Irish teams, fans and viewers. We believe we have respected the interests of all stakeholders in the tournaments and we are seeking that the proposal be overturned to retain an unrestricted marketplace to determine fair value for the properties.

Mr. Philip Browne

It is clear that Ireland punches well above its weight in terms of the financial returns it gets from these two tournaments. Nowhere is that more evident than in the distribution of television rights where we are a net beneficiary of in excess of €10 million a year from both tournaments. The IRFU has been in existence since 1874. It is an all-Ireland governing body with responsibility for rugby at all levels across the island of Ireland from the national team down to clubs, schools and community rugby. Since our foundation 136 years ago we have taken great pride in the unwavering bonds that rugby has fostered between our traditions North and South, no more so highlighted than through the dark days of the Troubles when interclub and representative matches continued unbroken, which saw teams and supporters cross the Border week-in week-out to play and mix in the name of sport. Such camaraderie flourishes still to this day.

I want to emphasise that we are not just about professional rugby. We are also about grassroots rugby. Our development initiatives focus on spreading the rugby gospel to villages and parishes that have never been seen as rugby centres. We are increasing our numbers by 10%, year-on-year, at present. A simple but interesting example of our current development initiatives is the vibrant Gaeltacht rugby programme, which is fostering clubs from Corca Dhuibhne in County Kerry, Connemara, Mayo and Donegal. In the past five years, we have increased the number of registered players from 98,000 to over 150,000. Quite simply, rugby is not about the professional game alone. It is also about spreading its core values of fair play, physical well-being, responsibility and team spirit to every part of Ireland.

The professional game is the high-profile member of our family. Everything else depends on its success, which is critical. It is truly the financial engine of the sport. It has been extraordinarily successful in recent years. Central to that success was the decision taken by the IRFU in 1999 to invest heavily in keeping Ireland's best players at home, rather than allowing them to be tempted to move to England. Our efforts in this regard were greatly helped by the State tax incentive for sportspeople based in Ireland, and also by the goodwill of the players, who understand what we are trying to achieve. Our success means that Irish players train, play and live here. Ireland's set-up is the envy of the rugby world. The success of Irish rugby is based on it. It is unthinkable for those of us involved in Irish rugby that any of this should be put at risk.

I will move on to the slide that deals with finances. The IRFU is a not-for-profit organisation. Our finances are published annually. All of our income is ploughed back into running and developing the professional and amateur games. The financial figures on the chart show that the IRFU generated revenues of approximately €57 million in the year up to 30 April 2009. The critical figure on the income side is television income, which comprises approximately 24% of our revenue. On the expenditure side, the professional game costs approximately €32 million to run. It generates the excess that allows us to invest approximately €14 million in clubs, schools, communities and the development of young players. These figures demonstrate that our finances are on a knife edge. We do not generate massive surpluses. If we generate a surplus, we plough it back into the game the following year.

If we did not have genuine concerns that the free-to-air proposal may have a devastating impact on our sport for generations to come, we would not be here. I emphasise that we favour the free-to-air broadcasting of our games, where feasible. We have excellent relations and a strong partnership with RTE. All of Ireland's Six Nations matches are available live on RTE. All of the provinces' Heineken Cup matches are available "as live" or as highlights on RTE. From September of this year, the Magners League will be shown free-to-air on RTE, TG4 and BBC Northern Ireland. We are supportive of free-to-air television.

The unintended consequence of this proposal would be to cost us between €10 million and €12 million per annum. That might just be the start of things. The unravelling of our current commercial arrangements with Six Nations Rugby Limited and European Rugby Cup Limited could have greater consequences. It would be catastrophic if we were told to paddle our own canoe. The figure I have provided is based on the difference between the annual television income we receive from the Six Nations and the European Cup — some €16 million — and what we would receive if each of our partners in those tournaments was told not to draw from the central pot, to negotiate its own television deal and to keep the revenue. Mr. Feehan and Mr. McGrath have spoken about this issue. As the Irish market is currently valued at approximately €5 million, that would leave us with a loss of approximately €11 million. It is very simple.

I have read the academic argument suggesting that we could sell our game to other markets. This ignores a basic fact of broadcasting, which is that television companies want to negotiate the rights to tournaments as a whole. One-off matches have no real value. The intrinsic value is in the tournament as a whole — all the matches in the tournament — regardless of whether it is rugby, soccer, Gaelic games or tennis. The tournament total is always greater than the sum of all its parts. That is fundamental to the argument we are making. Our plea is that a balanced approach should be taken to allow us, through our partnerships with Six Nations Rugby Limited and European Rugby Cup Limited, to seek to maximise our television revenues. If market forces prevail, RTE, TV3, TG4, Sky, ESPN, BBC, ITV and every other broadcaster will be able to compete. We understand the desire for free-to-air rugby for all, but this is utopia in a professional sport. No professional sport can survive on that basis. We fully support the existing balance, which is being maintained by European Rugby Cup Limited and Six Nations Rugby Limited. We believe we have managed our sport in a way that ensures we can fund the teams that provide the success which, in turn, generates the growth and popularity of our sport.

I will conclude by commenting on the effect of the loss of 20% of our income. It would create a number of issues for us. It would result in a significant reduction in the level of resources for professional rugby, with a probable reduction in the number of professional teams in this country. It would lead to less well resourced teams, which would be less successful, resulting in an inability to compete at the highest levels in World Cup, Olympic Games, Six Nations, Heineken Cup, Amlin Cup and Magners League competitions. Players are motivated by success as much as by anything else. They want to achieve success. If there are no successful teams in Ireland, our best players will move to countries where they can meet their ambitions as professional sportsmen. They will go to more successful and better resourced teams. That would lead to a severe reduction in the annual budget we can put aside for developing the game at club and school levels. It would lead to a rapid decline in Irish rugby. Ireland would become a second-tier rugby nation. That would mark the end of the game's mass appeal. This proposal is a serious threat to the rugby economy, the value of which we estimate at between €350 million and €370 million per annum. That is injected into the economy through sports tourism, direct employment and downstream employment. Nobody wants such a prospect. I assure the committee that it is a real prospect for us. I thank the committee for its time and courtesy. I am sorry if we went on a little bit.

I thank the witnesses for presenting their case. We got more information than we got from Mr. Browne's last public statement. We now have a chance to delve further into the issues. I have a few questions of my own, but I will wait until members have put their questions.

I welcome the three members of the delegation. All of us welcome the opportunity to bring some light to this discussion, rather than continuing the war of words we have heard up to now. I think that is very important. All parties to this debate want to maintain the high standard Irish rugby has achieved in the golden era of recent times. I refer to developments both on and off the field, such as the opening of the Aviva Stadium a few weeks ago. The witnesses have catalogued the various grand slam and Heineken Cup victories. As a Connacht person, I should mention the great strides that Connacht rugby has made. I hope Connacht rugby can continue to be supported with the funds available.

I suppose the idea is that the balance has to be right. The delegates said in their reports that Irish rugby has done very well out of the present arrangement. The balance that has been struck needs to be maintained on an ongoing basis. Ordinary people would like answers to a few questions. Six Nations games are free-to-air on RTE as part of the present set-up, which will last for another three years. Can a guarantee be given that the existing balance, whereby Six Nations games are shown on terrestrial television, will continue after those three years have passed? Is it possible to have flexibility to maintain this balance? While the majority of people, including the Fine Gael Party, support the stance taken by the IRFU, that position would change if the Six Nations games were not free-to-air in three years from now.

Is flexibility possible with regard to the European Rugby Cup, ERC? For instance, if two Irish teams were playing in a Heineken Cup final, could it be shown as a free-to-air game without affecting the financial position?

Some commentators have suggested — this is not necessarily my view — that the losses sustained as a result of designating rugby matches free-to-air would not be as high as €12 million. What is the IRFU's response? Once the facts have been established, every Irish person will want to keep Irish rugby at the top level.

I also welcome the delegation and its reserve team. We have the makings of a full rugby team in the Gallery. I thank the IRFU for its presentation and for bringing some clarity to the questions we all have. Everyone recognises the great pleasure our national and provincial rugby teams have given us. They have done a great honour to the country and we want to ensure any measures taken do not damage this in any way.

The IRFU reckons that the loss arising from free-to-air designation would be between €10 million and €12 million, whereas the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, suggested it would be approximately €3 million. The difference between the two sets of figures is substantial. While it is not for the IRFU to identify how the Minister arrived at his €3 million figure, we need to hear its side of the story. I ask the delegation to explain how it arrived at the €10 million to €12 million figure.

The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Ryan, has commissioned a consultant's report to examine the economic impact of the proposal. Will the IRFU express a view on the report as soon as it is published? While none of us can anticipate what will emerge from the report — otherwise we would not have questions to ask today — its findings will be very important.

On the value of rugby to viewers, it has been noted that the most vulnerable, namely, those who are least able to afford pay for television broadcasting, will be disenfranchised. I ask the delegation to comment.

The delegation referred to deferred viewing. People who know the result of a match may watch a game for a bit of fun but they would not be as passionate about it as they would be if watching it live. One cannot compare deferred viewing to watching a live match because the excitement dips considerably when one knows the result. How many viewers would be attracted to a deferred broadcast?

People who wish to watch a match have the option of paying to view at home, visiting their local rugby club if they are members or going to a pub. Does the delegation have issues with people going to a pub? This matter has been raised a number of times and it is important to take a view on it. While the link between alcohol and sport is a separate debate, it is particularly relevant given the level of alcohol sponsorship in rugby, for example, one has the Heineken Cup and Magners League.

The IRFU is clearly committed to supporting rugby at club level and in every parish. Does it have a specific programme for promoting rugby in disadvantaged areas? I have in mind certain parts of my constituency where rugby is not the first game not so much through choice, but as a result of a lack of availability. It is important to continue to generate interest in rugby and improve access to the sport for all sections of the population and community.

We heard what would occur if the Republic were to have free-to-air broadcasting and the North continued with the current system. This is an important point which the IRFU needs to emphasise. What will be the position in three years with regard to the Six Nations? This, too, will be important in influencing support for the IRFU's proposals.

I propose to take a representative from each party followed by responses from the delegation. I welcome to the meeting the former Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy John O'Donoghue, who maintains a strong interest in this area and did a great deal to support sport in his time as Minister.

I welcome the delegation and congratulate the IRFU on all it has achieved in recent years. On the legalities of free-to-air designation, does the IRFU have a legal contract with the Six Nations and European Rugby Cup organisations? If so, how are revenues tied down contractually? Is the estimated revenue of €74 million from the Six Nations championship index linked? How was the figure calculated? Was it done on a scientific basis? How is the allocation to the IRFU agreed? Is it done by negotiation with the other five countries involved in the Six Nations or is it the responsibility of the organising body?

What is the position regarding revenue from games played in South Africa, New Zealand and so forth? In general, RTE broadcasts such games live and presumably pays the IRFU for the broadcasting rights. Will the delegation explain the position in this regard?

The IRFU has indicated it would lose between €10 million and €12 million if the proposed change to free-to-air proceeds. Will the delegation be a little more specific about how it calculated these figures? A problem will not arise for the next three years as they are covered by current agreements. What guarantees can the Six Nations and ERC organisations give to the IRFU that a good revenue stream will be available in three years when the current agreements elapse? We are satisfied that the Heineken Cup and Six Nations Championship have major support. Is the IRFU able to provide a guarantee that the current revenue stream will be available in future? Is it possible to index link it?

We have heard some interesting presentations in which we learned the price of everything and the value of nothing. While I realise time is limited, I did not hear or read in the documents presented to us about the wider aspects of this debate. This discussion has focused entirely on money. I have not heard about participation, either in terms of access to rugby or its audience. Surely this is the wider picture that must be considered when policy is being determined? There are many reasons for the current popularity of rugby union, one being that there is a very talented generation of players. Much of the popularity is due to free-to-air television coverage. Heineken Cup matches were free-to-air until 2006. It was after the involvement of the Munster team in the 2006 final that pay-for-view television featured. Ulster had won the tournament before 2006. RBS Six Nations Rugby matches have traditionally been free-to-air on terrestrial television. Our concern is the possibility that RBS Six Nations Rugby matches will be on pay-for-view television. I have not heard this issue debated because it has been obscured by the debate on the European rugby cup. This is the wider concern of many. We already have rugby events on the approved list, including the Rugby World Cup. Is it being argued that because it is not available to the satellite channels, the value of the game of rugby is diminished? Perhaps this debate should be reopened. The phenomenon does not seem to have done damage in the short or medium term to rugby.

That the rights to the RBS Six Nations Championship may go to a satellite channel after 2013 is of great concern to many among the rugby-loving populations in the six nations and the wider community. If, as the representative of the RBS Six Nations Championship said, the preference is to remain with terrestrial television, why open it to anyone else? Why have market factors or even entertain the possibility of the championship being shown by a satellite channel? If and when a satellite channel does take over, who is to say the market will be any less monopolistic? In many respects, it is as monopolistic in that there is only one major player in pay-for-view television services. The likelihood is that once it gets its hands on the rights to as many major sports events as possible, it will be become more monopolistic. With broadcasting policy in mind, we should be very concerned about attempts by companies such as Sky to dominate our television viewing habits. That is why we need real competition in terrestrial television services and why the current combination of television channels involving the BBC and RTE as a partner represents the best way forward for sports, including rugby.

If a satellite television channel was to succeed in taking the rights to the RBS Six Nations Championship, maintain its hegemony in respect of events such as the European rugby cup and then go into receivership, as happened in the case of the international arm of Setanta Sports, where would that leave the viewing public? There are so many dangers inherent in the arguments being made today.

How does one value the €2 million the IRFU is getting from Sky for the Irish rights, the reason for maintaining the current situation, against the money coming from State sources which resulted in the provision of a very good piece of infrastructure? The IRFU does not have in its accounts for 2009 its projections of future income. After the development of the new stadium, it sold ten-year tickets, valued at €150 million, and sold sponsorship rights for €40 million. It also has advertising rights. It has created a very good corporate convention centre in Lansdowne Road that will be to the advantage of the organisation and which has been subsidised by the State. On these grounds, the IRFU believes the €1 million, €2 million or €3 million it would lose annually justifies compromising all the income it receives from other sources, the major one being the State.

That we are having this debate is testament to the reality that the sport is popular and interest is growing. It is well loved, not just by members of the committee but also by a very wide audience. The IRFU has made it very clear that rights amount to money. We had meetings on the music and arts industries and spoke of rights also. Rights imply there is a competitive market. I understand what the IRFU is saying about where it wants to go in this regard. The key point, however, is that one should maintain balance at all times.

My major concern is the public's right to access to free-to-air television services. The IRFU stated it would like to have matches free-to-air wherever possible. It is important that we keep RBS Six Nations Championship matches free-to-air. It is not just in respect of rugby that there are free-to-air opportunities because there are many such opportunities in respect of soccer and Gaelic games. We want to see these opportunities being maintained as much as possible.

I understand what the delegates are saying. They have shared much more information today than they have in the past. To refer to what Senator Boyle said, I have seen figures for the audiences of children. In 2006 when Leinster played Toulouse in the Heineken Cup quarter final, 255,000 people watched the match on RTE. The following year, at the same stage of the tournament and with the same team, only 47,000 watched the game. I understand the audience of children under 14 years fell dramatically from 27,000 to 2,000. I do not understand how the precise figure was obtained.

The point has been well made by many today that we are anxious to ensure the widest possible audience sees the games. Politicians, as representatives of the public, must keep their eyes on this objective. This is in the context of a growing sport loved by many. Perhaps Mr. Browne and Mr. McGrath will try to deal with these issues.

Mr. Philip Browne

I will lead and if I believe questions need to be directed to Mr. Feehan and Mr. McGrath, I will pass them on.

I am very glad Senator Boyle raised the issue of access and participation. It is our raison d’être. The only reason we are involved in professional sport is to grow the game. The reality is that RBS Six Nations Rugby matches have been free-to-air forever in Ireland. As far as I can recall, the championship has not been broadcast by satellite broadcasters at all.

Let me cite some figures that indicate the need for balance. In 1999 our win-loss ratio as an international team was 32%. Our revenue in that year was €10 million. In 2003, during the next Rugby World Cup cycle, our win-loss ratio was 64% and our revenue was €37 million. In 2007 our win-loss ratio was 57% and our revenue was €54 million. In 2009 our win-loss ratio was 100% and our revenue was €57 million. What drives participation and growth in sport is the success of the teams people see around them. This is the real driver. It would be wrong for us to leave this room collectively feeling television exposure was the means by which sport grew. It grows through a balance of television exposure and revenues which are then put into the mix. With this, one generates marketing and revenues that allow the sport to grow. If one were to ask the representatives of any sports organisation in this country how they intended to grow their sport, they would point to revenue and exposure. We must strike a balance between the two. The track record has been very good in that respect. In the past five years the number of registered players has increased from 98,000 to 150,000. Nobody would seriously suggest we have not had success in growing the game. We have done very well in growing it.

Deputy Upton asked whether we had moved the game into disadvantaged areas. We definitely have. A prime goal of our partnership with the Department of Tourism, Culture and Sport and the Irish Sports Council is to ensure we not only bring rugby to the youth across the country but, more specifically, bring it to disadvantaged areas. We have run a successful scheme in Tallaght which sees 2,000 kids and more playing rugby every week, with similar schemes rolled out in Fingal County Council and Dublin City Council areas. We have moved into areas in County Donegal in which rugby was never played. We are also working with the Limerick regeneration project. We are, therefore, fulfilling our brief with the Irish Sports Council.

How did we reach the figure of €10 million to €12 million in lost revenue? The six nations championship generates €74 million from the sale of television rights. Of this, €3 million is derived from the Irish marketplace. The IRFU receives €11 million from the central pool of €74 million. Its net positive gain as a result of this commercial pooling arrangement is €8 million.

ERC produces a total pool from the sale of television rights of €30 million across all of its partners. The value of the Irish television rights is €2 million. As a result of that pooling arrangement, we receive €5 million, giving us a net positive gain of €3 million.

The IRFU has always stated the loss of income from the sale of television rights would amount to between €10 million and €12 million. From the figures I have just given, it would amount to €11 million.

If we were not able to bring our full basket of television rights to the centre table, we would be weakening the negotiating strength of both tournaments and putting at risk their ability to generate the maximum revenues in marketplaces across Europe, in particular, in the United Kingdom and Ireland because of the inextricable linkage with the English-speaking marketplace. In that scenario we have been told the most straightforward solution from the perspective of our other partners is that each country would negotiate its own television deals.

I will deal with the Six Nations rugby championship because it is probably the simpler and more illustrative example. The first scenario, more likely to be favoured by our other partners, is for the IRFU to negotiate with RTE, or any other terrestrial broadcaster in the Irish marketplace, on the rights for the entire tournament in the Irish marketplace, rights which it currently holds. At best, we would receive the same revenues from RTE as it currently pays, that is, €3 million per annum. That would leave the IRFU with a loss of €8 million.

There is another scenario which is somewhat convoluted and not likely to be favoured by our other partners. Each union owns the rights to the matches played in its stadium. In a two-year six nations cycle the IRFU has the rights to two matches in one year and three the following year at the Aviva Stadium. These rights could be sold in Ireland and the markets of the countries Ireland would play against. In this cycle the IRFU could achieve revenues of between €11 million and €13 million, which would not compare favourably with the current scenario in which Six Nations Rugby Limited distributes €22 million per year to the IRFU in the two-year cycle. Changing this would result in annual loss to the IRFU of between €5 million and €6.5 million.

The last scenario is less likely to be favoured. The first was enacted twice by England because there are two large markets. The French market which, funnily enough, encompasses free-to-air services has 60 million people and contributes €23 million to the Six Nations rugby championship pool. It would be easy for the French to say they would sell the rights to their matches, keep the €23 million and Ireland could have its €3 million. Equally, England generates a figure 60% in respect of the rights. For them, this scenario would be a no-brainer. If Ireland is going to upset the marketplace, the English Rugby Union would retain its own rights revenue.

Mr. John Feehan

There is no way we could allow the second scenario to emerge. While one would be able to watch some of the Irish games, the rest of the championship would not be seen because those games would have to be paid for. If one wanted to see the full Six Nations rugby championship, one would need to have the first model mentioned by Mr. Browne.

Can the IRFU give a guarantee for the future? I am afraid there are no guarantees. In the context of a €74 million budget, I cannot afford to upset the entire apple cart for one market. My partners would not allow that either. Ultimately, we have demonstrated time and again a preference for free-to-air services, with one exception when the England home games were sold to Sky. We could end up in a situation where one would see no games free-to-air, except the Ireland home games. I am not trying to be nasty to Ireland on this. The bulk of the revenues from the Six Nations rugby championship are generated through the UK and French markets. I cannot upset them because they are too important to the other unions.

How would the IRFU deal with a case where RTE, the BBC and their French equivalents asked, because of the current economic climate, for a 10% reduction in what they had paid for television rights?

Mr. John Feehan

I am happy to let the market determine the price. I have an issue when it is corrupted and distorted. This proposal would represent such a prospect. In the real world, when the price goes down, we all have to grin and bear it. Our track record for several years is that we have significantly increased our revenues and expect to do so for several more years if the marketplace is a proper one.

We have 30 minutes left and I want to get as many people in as possible.

Mr. Derek McGrath

I want to answer the question about legal contracts and how we are structured. In effect, the basis of our relationship is a partnership of mutual interests. ERC's current arrangement with all of the members is what we call a shareholders' agreement which is negotiated with the greatest levels of energy and pressures. It took about two years to get the current deal in place. Every time we reach a new cycle of negotiations, the pressure increases. In 2008 we managed to get one signed. That gives us assurances of our continued existence until 2015. We have in place underpinning commercial contracts to take us through the next four-year period. They are legally binding. As has been intimated, discussions could take place if we wanted to talk about a reduction, but legal contracts are in place which will obviously protect our business.

Senator Boyle referred to competition and the fact that Sky was a major player. In fact, in the United Kingdom ESPN has come in to fill the gap. As it is backed by Disney, clearly it is another player in that marketplace. This points to the fact that it is a competitive marketplace and we are saying we are happy to take our place in it.

I have Deputies Mitchell, O'Donoghue and Ring, as well as Senators Mooney, Butler and Buttimer, offering.

When this issue came to prominence, I knew zero about the funding of rugby. I am conscious that when a special interest group such as the IRFU comes here, it engages in special pleading. It is desirable to get both sides of an argument. The problem is that there does not seem to be another side to it. It seems the Minister is expressing a particular viewpoint that is contrary to that of the IRFU. To try to bring some balance to the debate, I have spoken to as many people as I can inside and outside the world of rugby, people who just watch matches on television, play or are involved in the organisation. Everyone to whom I have spoken is of the very strong view that this proposal of the Minister, if implemented, would destroy the game. The view is that if we attempt to hamstring the partners and bring nothing to the table ourselves, we shall go from being extremely popular participants in a rugby nation which has international organisations based here to being the most despised of rugby playing countries. The reputation we have built up would just disappear overnight. The view is that the funding generated has made the game the success it is and given Ireland international fame. It has given so many of us real enjoyment, as well as pride in our players. While I do not want to diminish what the Minister is trying to do, it seems he is jeopardising this success by what appears to be a whim, the rationale for which does not appear to be well grounded in the facts. It seems to be based on the assumption that rugby in Ireland would be the same after the change and that it would be equally successful and popular. That seems to be folly and it is almost arrogant to persist along a path when nobody else shares one's viewpoint.

I have been listening to what the Minister has been saying. He said, for instance, that the French had suggested that if a French team was in the final, it would be free to air. Again, there is no comparison between the position in Ireland and that in France where the clubs are professional, making profits with access to money that is not available in a small country such as Ireland. I see in his press statement, in speaking about the Heineken Cup and the Six Nations Rugby championship, the Minister says: "These events are part of what we are as a nation." They are only part of what we are as a nation since €32 million was started to be spent on them. The reality is that when I was growing up, rugby was an elitist game in which we rarely enjoyed international success. The available funding has turned it into a new product and is absolutely essential. To pull the plug on something that is working well for us and has given us such enjoyment and success internationally would be folly.

I wonder, Chairman, whether it would be appropriate for a view to issue from the committee to the Minister to the effect that the IRFU should continue to have independence to deal with broadcasters in a way that it determines would best serve the needs of the game. The committee might ask the Minister to make this view known to the Cabinet. I do not know whether it would be appropriate to do this now or at the end of the meeting. I would like to believe we have a positive recommendation to make.

I am open to recommendations. It has been said rugby is part of what we are as a nation, but the situation is somewhat different in Leinster, compared to that in Munster and Connacht, depending on which part of Ireland the game is being played.

It changed as a result of becoming professional, with good funding available.

I totally agree with the Deputy that the availability of funding has opened it up as a major game. I call Deputy O'Donoghue and ask everyone to be as brief as possible.

Without in any way being patronising, I extend my congratulations to the IRFU on the wonderful work it has done in recent years to develop the game of rugby on the island of Ireland. I had the opportunity to speak on the issue on the Adjournment debate last night and I will repeat what I said then.

I am convinced and share the IRFU's view that the Minister's proposal would lead to a significant reduction in resources for the professional game, an inability on the part of Irish provincial teams to compete at the highest levels, a loss of Irish rugby's key income generators, its best players, a probable reduction in the number of professional provincial franchises or teams, an inability on the part of the Irish national team to be a serious and consistent force at international and World Cup level, the rapid decline of Irish rugby teams into second tier contenders and the end of the game's mass appeal in this country.

Consequential reductions would follow in terms of the effect on the value of what is a strong and vibrant rugby sector to the national and regional economies, with a weakening of international sporting relations and patronage for Ireland Inc.

We know that the populist thing to do would be to list the games as being free to air on television. However, history showns that if one seeks to be in front of everything and behind nothing, one will ultimately fail in one's objective. It is naive to say there is no relationship between the amount of money one invests in a given sport and its success. Let us be clear. The commercial reality in the real world is that the success of a game or sport, participation levels and the success of a team are directly related to the funding available for investment. While some have said there has not been sufficient discussion about participation, my answer is that there has not been sufficient discussion of how the IRFU would replace the €10 million to €12 million it would lose under this proposal. That is the really important question which, in all honesty, those who propose the free-to-air methodology should address.

In my experience, every monopoly has a victim. Everything which has a dominant position in the marketplace has a victim. I would like the gentlemen present to explain to the committee why, if they are forced into the arms of a monopoly, they could not hope to generate the funding they require to develop the game further, or even to maintain it as it is. That is a really important question.

There is a second important question. Is it not the case that in the final analysis what we are really talking about is killing the golden goose which lays the golden eggs? I do not believe we would serve future generations, the children of this country and their children's children, by adopting a proposal which would destroy the game of rugby in Ireland.

We appreciate those sentiments from a former Minister with responsibility for sport and a lover of sport in general. We shall now hear from Deputy Ring who will be followed by Senator Mooney.

I am glad to see that it is not Government policy, and that somebody in government is not afraid to speak out. I compliment Deputy O'Donoghue because he is correct. I come from the west where rugby is taking off because of the great efforts made and work put in in recent years both voluntarily and with IRFU support.

Whether we like it, money makes the world go around. If one takes the professional game in England as an example, the top six teams in the championship every year are the ones which get the money which they put into players.

There is no doubt that the Heineken Cup has created a great understanding of the game of rugby and people have followed the game simply because of Munster, Leinster, Ulster and Connaught. The Heineken Cup has done more for rugby than the IRFU has done, although I hate to say that. Success breeds success. We see young people out there with their Munster, Leinster and Connaught jerseys, which is something we did not see 15 years ago. We see it simply because these teams are successful.

Politicians have a role in policy, but we have to be careful about the IRFU negotiating its own deal. I do not like the fact that Sky TV has these monopolies, because it means that the wealthy will be able to afford it but the poor will not have such an opportunity, because they cannot afford it. That is not what sport is about. I know the IRFU is trying to promote its game and get as many people as possible to play it. We live in a commercial world, and if the IRFU does not get the best price for its product and if it allows it to be sold on the cheap, then people will buy it on the cheap. The IRFU has to go out and sell its product at the best price. I am sorry, but that is the way it is.

It looks like we will not have the Six Nations Championship on free-to-air television unless the likes of the BBC and RTE can come up with the money, but they will have stiff competition from Sky Sports and from ESPN. These people like the monopoly because the more events they get, the more they can control and the more money they can make. That is the way they operate. One would not see an Irish advertisement on Sky Sports only a few years ago, but there are many such advertisements on the channel nowadays. It is all about revenue for Sky Sports.

The IRFU has done a good job over the last few years. It has run its business very well and I know that the game has come under pressure. I read last week that Leinster players may have to take reductions in their salaries. That is part of the game as well. They got the money when things were going well, but there may be difficult times ahead for everybody because of the recession. Everybody had to cut their cloth according to their income. I hope that we can have free-to-air events and that RTE and the BBC can compete, but at the same I do not think we can tie the hands of the IRFU. The IRFU has to get the best price for its product, which is rugby. It has been very successful thanks to the provinces, and it is the only professional sport in Ireland that is working well. We are keeping the professionals here in this country. They tried it in soccer — I am a soccer man myself — but it ran into all sorts of difficulties. This format is working for rugby and long may it work, but I hope the BBC and RTE will be able to come up with the money so that we can see as much rugby as possible, along with soccer and Gaelic games.

RTE gets a lot of criticism but when we think about the amount of money people pay per view Sky Sports, it is a credit to RTE that it covers soccer, Gaelic games, rugby and every kind of sport here. The critics will always be giving out about RTE, but it does its sport very well and I compliment the organisation for doing so.

I was struck by Deputy Mitchell's comment about rugby and growing up near Dublin 4. I lived in Drumshanbo in County Leitrim, and my earliest memory of a rugby international was when there was an ESB power cut in my area. Myself and my friend, both aged about ten years old at the time, were sitting in my father's car listening to Fred Cogley commentating at an international game on a crackling radio.

I am pleased and honoured to be in the same room as Tom Kiernan. The first international I ever attended was as an emigrant in London at Tom's last appearance for Ireland at Twickenham in 1970. We drew the game and I remember him coming on the field that day so well. The contribution that he has made and the impact he had even on young fellas from small towns was immense. I am so pleased and honoured to be here with him.

I agree with much of what has been said. Sporting organisations are in a totally different environment. League football at the upper levels in England could not survive without the amount of revenue being received from Sky Sports. Like the IRFU, the GAA has proven to be excellent at marketing its games. I was very much in favour when the EU first indicated ten years ago that it would have a listing system for sports events. It was a good idea in principle, because it would ensure the widest possible audience. However, we are a small country and we must face reality and cut our cloth accordingly. I would be completely supportive of the IRFU's case in favour of continuing to operate under the current system, and to engage freely in bilateral agreements in order to increase its revenue.

I read an article by Eamon Sweeney in the Sunday Independent on 23 May, and I got the impression that he was not necessarily a fan of the IRFU. I would like to put a few of his points on the record because it is important that people should know what the Government is providing to sport in general, but to rugby in particular. He makes the comment, albeit somewhat tongue in cheek, that while €10 million is a lot of money at one level, it is only a drop in the ocean compared with the €191 million that the Government forked out to build the Aviva Stadium, the €17.5 million that the Irish Sports Council gives out to the IRFU, the €34 million Irish rugby clubs have received in capital funding over the past 12 years, the €40 million which Aviva lashed out to secure naming rights at Lansdowne Road, the €40 million that Puma gave to become Irish rugby’s official kit supplier, as well as the money raised by the sale of 36 corporate boxes at the Aviva Stadium for €850,000 a pop, which comes to about €32 million, most of which have been sold. He makes the point the Irish rugby is “hardly on its uppers”.

People should not think that €10 million is the difference between the continuing success of Irish rugby and its demise if that money is lost. The argument will become a little unbalanced if we focus on this €10 million. People who know Mr. Browne tell me that he is a very even-minded and fair person, but some of his friends expressed surprise at the public position he took in his attack on the Minister, Deputy Ryan. Speaking from a purely political point of view, it was not his finest moment.

That is unfair and is a personal remark.

I am entitled to say it.

The Senator should withdraw it. On a point of order, we are debating a proposal about free-to-air television, and we should not engage in attacks on the chief executive of the IRFU who expressed a view on behalf of his organisation. Senator Mooney's contribution should be about the issue at hand, and not an attack on Mr. Browne.

Senator Buttimer, I have heard you on the Order of Business in the Seanad, and you are not slow to make the odd comment.

That is right. I play the ball and not the man.

We have had a very balanced discussion here. Senator Mooney made a comment about Mr. Browne and we will move on from that. In my opening remarks I said we have had a very balanced discussion, so let us move on from that. I will not ask anybody to withdraw anything. It is a passing remark.

Are the members opposite going to support the Minister or not? Let us be political about it if that is the way we want to be.

Let us move on.

If this means we will have continued heckles from Senator Buttimer, then I would like to say that I do not in any way wish to impugn Phillip Browne's integrity.

The Senator should come and join us.

He is either in government or he is not. He cannot have it both ways.

I was making a valid point — I am not the first person to have said it — that there was a great deal of surprise at the manner in which the presentation was made on live television by Mr. Browne. There was nothing personal in my remarks. I was merely about to say, before I was interrupted, that from a purely political point of view, the delegates are talking to friends and that it is important to realise that there is also a public relations game going on. That was the full context in which I was making the point, there was absolutely nothing personal in it.

Be nice to Fianna Fáil.

There is an election coming, be nice to Fianna Fáil.

All I was going to say was that I also agree with the Chairman in the context of the figures he quoted. According to Eamon Sweeney in that article, if the Six Nations television rights are sold to Sky, we can expect a similar drop. It is difficult to see how this could be good for rugby or the sporting public in general.

The main focus of this discussion seems to be on the future of the Six Nations competition on free-to-air television. I appreciate Mr. Feehan's point that he cannot guarantee what the outcome will be of future negotiations, which I understand will take place in 2013. However, there are genuine concerns about the Six Nations competition being removed from free-to-air television. I am also concerned that if rugby is restricted to pay-per-view or satellite television it could go down the route of baseball in the United States where the sport was all but destroyed and where it was necessary to revert to the original system. Are the delegates concerned about that?

As I said at the outset, I agree fully with the position the delegates have taken on this. The reality is that the market will dictate and we must live in the real commercial world. I support most of what my colleague, Deputy O'Donoghue, has said in that regard.

I promised Senator Buttimer a slot. I trust he will be very brief as usual.

I will take as long as I need. With respect to Deputy O'Donoghue, who made a very good contribution, the practice at committee is that members of the committee take precedence over other Members in attendance. Senator Boyle was also permitted to speak before us. However, I will be brief out of respect for the Chairman.

I welcome Mr. Tom Kiernan who has been a great ambassador for Irish rugby. Having played the sport at the highest level he has gone back to club level and has also become involved at executive level. He is a role model for many people in sport. I wish to defend Mr. Browne in respect of what he did on behalf of his sport some weeks ago. He may have been orating to some extent and he may have been somewhat ill-judged in what he said, as Senator Mooney suggested, but he was under attack.

I thank Senator Buttimer for agreeing with me.

He was under attack——

I appreciate the Senator's comments.

He was under attack by a Minister of Senator Mooney's Government.

Thank you for your support, Senator.

Which side is Senator Mooney on?

I ask Senator Buttimer to address his comments through the Chair. I remind Senator Mooney that he should not heckle Senator Buttimer.

I can heckle him if he misrepresents what I said.

The bottom line is that professional rugby in this country benefits from a model that money cannot buy, not just through television, not just through Government investment but chiefly through the foresight of the IRFU. That body has changed its structures, rules and ethos and embraced the professional game, and it did so correctly. It comes down to the old line from the movie: "Show me the money." If there is no money, there is a problem. Eamon Sweeney is probably partly right; the IRFU will not go bust tomorrow morning if the Government's proposal is implemented. However, it will limit and regress the game of rugby. There will be no money to invest, many players will not hang around, the club game will be decimated and the programme of development of grounds and stadia will have to be abandoned.

We live in a commercial world and if we are serious about professionalism, we must don the green jersey and stand up for our sports people and for the IRFU. If we want to see Ronan O'Gara, Brian O'Driscoll, Tommy Bowe or any other player go off to play in France, then we should support the Minister, Deputy Ryan's, proposal. Deputy O'Donoghue is right that in proceeding with that proposal we will create a new tier of rugby in the European Union and that Ireland will not be in the top tier. That is the bottom line. I am a fan of all sports and, in my humble opinion, Sky has been the ruination of modern sport. It has ruined the whole ethos of soccer in England and the same applies to rugby in this country. It has made golf a minority sport among the viewing public. I agree with Deputy O'Donoghue that there is a balance between populism and the development of rugby and other sports. If we do not take a stand on this issue, will we allow the GAA to sell off the rights to the All-Ireland Championship in the coming years? Will we lose the battle in regard to horse racing? We cannot deny that there is a relationship between money and sport. Money does not buy success but it certainly helps one to win and, in the case of rugby, ensures we can retain our players.

It is important to put this issue in perspective. This will, at the end of the day, be a political decision. Deputy Mitchell has made a recommendation to the committee that we should allow the IRFU the opportunity and the independence to deal with broadcasters in the best interests of the game it represents. I admire people like Mr. Browne who have taken the game of rugby into the modern era. I do not know Mr. Browne personally but I read his comments and reports and I watch what happens around me. I see what the IRFU has done and I go back to friends in the GAA and advise them to follow the same model. Members opposite have a choice to make — they either support the IRFU or they do not. Senator Mooney cannot have it both ways. We are either with the IRFU or against it.

Much ground has already been covered. Deputy O'Donoghue put it concisely when he outlined how we should approach this situation. It seems quite simple — there is €57 million coming in and €55 million going out, giving a surplus of €2 million which goes back into the game. Any movement in those figures will lead to a very precarious situation. I recognise that the professional game of rugby is entirely different to amateur sport. Even where amateur sport is run professionally, it does not cost the same sums to produce the sport. There is a fine balance to be struck.

The IRFU has a niche market and dangers present in going outside that niche market and cutting off revenues. The IRFU has to take a very diplomatic line with the Six Nations competition because it must deal with its partners in that competition. What the Minister, Deputy Ryan, is proposing would be a popular move and I would like to see it happening myself. At the same time, however, I do not want to see the game of professional rugby endangered. At the end of the day it is the taxpayer who will foot the bill. If the IRFU cannot find the money elsewhere it may have to seek assistance from the State. None of us wants that to happen. We want the IRFU to continue to run the game professionally.

People like Tom Kiernan inspired me to watch rugby. I have always been a GAA man but I went many times to Lansdowne Road to watch Tom in action. He was brilliant; I recall on one occasion that the Welsh players seemed to be hoping the team would retire him. The people who grew up watching Tom Kiernan and the other stars of the past have a lifelong love for the game. It is a fine game with a fine new stadium. We must look to the players of the future. The IRFU will need money to ensure they stay and play in Ireland.

We are almost out of time. I thank Mr. Browne and his team for attending the meeting. They have made a compelling case. In particular, they have expanded on the argument that as far as the IRFU is concerned, the sum is greater than its parts. This has come up repeatedly because the witnesses outlined clearly the integrated nature of the relationship between Ireland and the other Six Nations members in respect of funding. These are commercial times and the money the IRFU has put into the game has made it more popular. There are issues of concern to all members with regard to accessibility and the joint committee asks the IRFU to do its utmost in that regard. I also note that while the IRFU will be fighting in a competitive arena in respect of the Six Nations, its desire is to have it broadcast on RTE. However, the union's argument is that it wants to be engaged in a competitive arena.

As Chairman of the joint committee, one must try to be impartial and fair to everyone. Deputy Mitchell has made a proposal, the precise details of which I have not seen. As members in general do not vote on this joint committee, perhaps I can propose something along the lines I literally am about to throw out to her. The wording could be "That this committee is very impressed with the case made by the IRFU and the delegation today with regard to this subject". The joint committee then could ask the Minister to note that as I am trying to take on board the general mood of its membership across party lines. That is my suggestion and in addition, I look forward to having the Minister appear before the joint committee and to hearing what he has to say. As far as I am concerned, this is an important committee and is a public forum. Members are impressed with the case made by the IRFU and its representatives also have heard what members have had to say. However, this debate will continue for another few months until the autumn when the Minister must make a decision. Is this acceptable to Deputy Mitchell?

Can the joint committee make a decision that could go into the consultative process, for fear that in the final analysis, this matter would end up in Europe, which of course can happen?

If possible, Mr. Browne, Mr. Feehan, Mr. McGrath and Mr. Power may wish to respond to the later contributions that were made because some specific questions were raised.

Perhaps Deputy Mitchell can revert to me on the aforementioned issue. Yes, I apologise as some specific questions were raised. I believe we can manage another few minutes. Mr. Browne may wish to respond to them and on the general tone of the meeting.

Mr. Philip Browne

First, we are extremely grateful to have received such a good hearing. Everyone around the table has demonstrated a clear understanding of the issues and the problems we face. A couple of points were raised. Senators Boyle and Mooney raised the point about the Aviva Stadium and the financial position of the IRFU. Let me be clear about a number of things. The IRFU, and the FAI, which is not present but I know it would say the same, are extremely grateful to the taxpayer and the State for the investment made in the Aviva Stadium. I once again express my appreciation to Deputy O'Donoghue, who was very much to the fore in ensuring that this project went ahead. We are extremely grateful to him and to the Government for that. However, a figure of €150 million was thrown out by Senator Boyle regarding the sale of premium seats at the Aviva Stadium. This is far from the case as by this September, the IRFU will have a facility with a commercial bank to draw down €38 million in loans to help pay our portion of the stadium costs. This puts us in an extremely weak position in terms of cash over the next number of years. I would not like people to assume that because the stadium is there that we suddenly are flush with cash. The great thing about the stadium is that it will be a financial engine for us in the future but we must pay our debts. This is a fundamental issue for us.

In addition, I note that half of that money was for the FAI and half for us. Consequently, €191 million did not come directly to the IRFU as it went to the stadium company, which is a joint venture. On the Six Nations, perhaps Mr. Feehan can add to this, I must give members our assurance that the IRFU's preference always will be for it be shown on free-to-air television. However, as the Chairman himself rightly noted, we want to be able to negotiate in an open market and that is all we ask.

Mr. John Feehan

I reiterate the point made by Mr. Browne. Ultimately, we have an absolute preference for free-to-air television as far as the Six Nations is concerned. We have demonstrated this over many years. Indeed, I reiterate that when England sold its rights, we forced it back into the fold to become free-to-air again. We have a significant commitment to free-to-air television as far as the Six Nations is concerned. The big issue for us is to ensure that we have an open and competitive marketplace. The Six Nations is important to everyone and the nice thing about it is that the national broadcasters are prepared to bid properly for these rights. Therefore they have won them over many years and there have been alternatives. The reality is that free-to-air broadcasters in both the United Kingdom and Ireland have won them in a fair marketplace, which is a good thing. We want this to continue in the future.

I am trying to work on a motion but we may not have time to do so. I ask Deputy Mitchell to comment. We do not generally——

I appreciate the Chairman would rather not have a row and I do not want to have one either. However, this is the Joint Committee on Arts, Sport, Tourism, Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and in respect of this issue, one is either for the proposal or against it. I believe members must express a view.

We have not heard from the Minister yet.

It was the Minister's idea and he has had many fora in which to put his position.

Will the Deputy change her motion when the Minister appears before the joint committee?

I certainly will not. It proposes that it is the view of the joint committee that the IRFU should continue to have the independence to deal with broadcasters in the way it sees best serves the needs of the game. It goes on to propose that members should convey this to our Minister — I mean the Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport, Deputy Hanafin, and not the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Ryan, in order that she can make representations at Cabinet level and as part of the consultative process. Moreover, the joint committee should make representations as part of the consultative process in favour of the current situation. Otherwise, members would be participating in destroying the game.

Okay. Directing this to the Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport is a different proposal. I will accept that as Chairman of the joint committee. Are members agreed that the joint committee should make this proposal to the Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport? Agreed.

That is all I ask.

I thank the witnesses for their attendance.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.10 p.m. until Wednesday, 16 June 2010.
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