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Joint Committee on Business, Enterprise and Innovation debate -
Wednesday, 7 Nov 2018

General Scheme of Industrial Development (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2018: Discussion

We are meeting to be briefed by officials of the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation on the general scheme of the Industrial Development (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2018 which, as members will recall, was referred to the committee for a decision as to whether it wished to engage in pre-legislative scrutiny. At its meeting on 16 October the committee agreed that it would request a briefing by the officials dealing with the Bill. I welcome Mr. Richard Scannell and Mr. Marcus Breathnach from the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation; Mr. Kevin Sherry and Mr. Paul McKeown from Enterprise Ireland; and Ms Mary Buckley and Ms Sarah O'Connell from IDA Ireland. They are accompanied by Mr Brian Walsh, Ms Wendy Gray, Ms Colette Reilly, Mr John Nolan and Mr Kevin Sammon. I welcome all of them.

Byy virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind our guests that their presentations should be of no more than ten minutes duration. The presentations submitted have been circulated to members. I ask Mr. Scannell to make his presentation.

Mr. Richard Scannell

We welcome the opportunity to speak to the joint committee about the Industrial Development (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. It contains three separate groups of legislative amendments, one of which relates to IDA Ireland, as set out in head 1, and two of which relate to Enterprise Ireland, as contained in heads 2 to 5, inclusive, and 6 to 9, inclusive. In broad terms, the Bill has two overarching aims, the first of which is to ensure Enterprise Ireland can flexibly deploy the widest array of interventions and supports in order that Irish firms can be as competitive as possible in world markets. The second is to enhance IDA Ireland’s capacity to secure foreign direct investment in regional locations and thereby improve our already compelling offering for multinationals to invest here. I will first address the amendments related to IDA Ireland.

As the committee will be aware, foreign direct investment, FDI, remains an essential component of Ireland’s economy. A core element of our value proposition to overseas firms is helping them to identify suitable property solutions for their investments in the country. This is key, particularly when it comes to attracting firms to regional locations. In recent years, however, a difficulty has arisen in that private commercial construction of new buildings outside Dublin has significantly decreased. Existing stock has been virtually exhausted and there is a limited supply of the types of building required by potential investors. This supply shortage is impacting on our ability to attract more foreign direct investment to regional locations.

Given the critical importance the Government attaches to regional development, it is proposed to address this infrastructural deficit by introducing statutory changes that would, in short, permit IDA Ireland to invest in suitable opportunities to commercially develop the necessary property solutions in partnership with other parties. Initially, this would take the form of a partnership between IDA Ireland and the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund which together have developed a proposal to commercially develop two office blocks on IDA Ireland lands at the National Technology Park in Limerick and Parkmore East Business Park in Galway.

Once completed, those buildings will then be sold or leased to investors at their full commercial value. Assuming these initial pilot projects are a success, this legislative amendment would also allow the IDA to participate in other partnership structures to develop further properties in the regions. Another important provision in the proposed amendments is to allow the IDA to enter into borrowing arrangements to help finance such projects. In the first instance, such finance would be provided by the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF, with the possibility of the IDA securing loan financing from other commercial or institutional lenders in the future. Any IDA borrowing for future such projects would be subject to a statutory cap and would also require the explicit consent of the Ministers for Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Business, Enterprise and Innovation. There would be no additional cost to the Exchequer. In summary, these amendments, if approved by the Oireachtas, would allow the IDA to better utilise its existing resources to help provide properties to investors and stimulate further economic activity in regional Ireland and create and sustain jobs.

I will now describe the Enterprise Ireland-related legislative amendments, beginning with those that aim to improve that agency’s research, development and innovation supports to industry, which remains a key objective of Government policy. As the committee is aware, Enterprise Ireland assists its client companies in developing new products, processes and services by supporting their in-company research, development and innovation. The agency also helps them to access international sources of funding and expertise and to collaborate with each other and the higher education system. In simple terms, innovation is one of the key pillars of Enterprise Ireland’s current strategy because, as the agency’s annual business review survey makes clear, companies that are RDI active are higher performing in terms of employment and export sales and are more sustainable through recessionary and other economic shocks such as Brexit. It is essential, therefore, that the RDI supports and programmes for Irish companies managed by Enterprise Ireland are appropriate, flexible and can be optimised to meet these and other evolving challenges. In that context, four legislative amendments are proposed to Enterprise Ireland’s governing legislation that aim to optimise their RDI supports to industry. The first aims to facilitate research grants to non-industrial processes with a focus on the horticulture sector. The second would allow Enterprise Ireland grants to support research activity overseas where those needs cannot be met in Ireland due to the nature of the work in question. The third would remove legal uncertainty to allow Enterprise Ireland to permit research grants up to EU state aid limits. Finally, the fourth amendment would permit advance partial payment of research and development grants to companies regardless of size.

It is worth noting that the introduction of this suite of amendments does not mean that Enterprise Ireland would be obliged to always provide these supports to individual companies. Each project will still have to withstand rigorous evaluations, as is the norm, to be deemed eligible for agency support. It is important to emphasise that higher levels of research and development in Ireland, which ultimately these amendments aim to achieve, brings a range of benefits, including greater skills level in the country, better quality exports and more revenues. These statutory changes would also allow Irish companies to operate on a level playing field with their EU competitors.

I will now address the third group of amendments which would allow Enterprise Ireland to match the range of investment supports available from developmental agencies in other countries, particularly in a Brexit context. This will ensure that Irish exporters are not at a disadvantage in terms of the developmental supports available to them. As it stands, Enterprise Ireland uses a number of investment instruments which provide companies with equity funding to support the company to start, build scale and deliver on its growth plans. However, the increasing trend is for investment in companies to be undertaken using more debt instruments and less long-term share capital. This also reflects the international experience in other start-up ecosystems. Several of our European partners, including France and the Netherlands, for example, now lend to start-up companies and do not always take equity in them. Current legislation in this jurisdiction, however, does not allow Enterprise Ireland to utilise loan instruments for investment purposes, as private investors do, and which provide greater security for that investment. As a result, Enterprise Ireland is not able to invest in a way that mirrors the terms of private sector investors or reflects new market norms for development supports. These legislative proposals aim to permit Enterprise Ireland to lend by way of non-convertible debt instruments as an alternative to share purchase; issue convertible loan notes which are loans that can convert into equity; and make follow-on investments in certain circumstances without having to comply with all of the criteria in section 21 of the current legislation.

It is proposed that the loan instruments would constitute medium-term to long-term debt that is aimed at helping to scale companies rather than short-term loans to provide for working capital. This will in no way change the developmental approach of Enterprise Ireland. The amendments are simply aimed at increasing its flexibility to support enterprise development and ensure that Enterprise Ireland is not at a financial disadvantage to the private sector when providing investment to a company in a funding round. Moreover, as lending is more secure than taking equity, the State’s investment in these situations would be better protected. For the avoidance of doubt, it is not intended to replace any current bank lending and Enterprise Ireland will not displace existing business lending in the economy. Applicants, if these new arrangements are allowed under law, will be required to be Enterprise Ireland clients and any agency lending would be wholly consistent with its existing developmental mandate.

Finally, minor amendments are also proposed to take account of lending powers with regard to the existing requirement that Enterprise Ireland must apply for Government approval for aggregate investments amounts provided to a company in excess of €7.5 million and to make a technical amendment to the Freedom of Information Act 2015 to clarify Enterprise Ireland’s obligations under that legislation. I thank the committee again for the invitation to engage with members today about these proposed legislative changes. We are happy to address any questions members of the committee may have.

I thank Mr. Scannell for that. I am afraid I will have to suspend the meeting for a few minutes because a vote has been called in the Dáil.

Sitting suspended at 5.16 p.m. and resumed at 5.51 p.m.

I thank Mr. Scannell for his briefing and I apologise for the delay. I now open the floor to any member who may have questions.

I have two simple questions. First, from where did the proposed changes come? Were they requested directly by IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland? Second, when is it expected the Bill will be brought before the Dáil?

Mr. Richard Scannell

To address first the IDA Ireland elements, these proposals were developed between the agency, the potential partner in the investment project and the Department over the past two to three years. They have been a long time coming and have been very carefully considered in order to ensure that they are operational and, frankly, would just work well. As to when they will be brought forward to the Dáil, the Bill is the subject of ongoing work between the Department and the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel. I do not want to put a timeframe on it but we hope to have the Bill published as soon as possible. Our target is probably early in the new year. We have a little way to go yet.

Mr. Marcus Breathnach

To speak to some of the amendments relating to research and development, the context is Innovation 2020, which was published at the end of 2015 or the start of 2016. It calls for action on a review of our innovation and research and development supports to fine-tune them. This innovative strategy was the subject of significant consultation with stakeholders at the time. Since then, we have been working with Enterprise Ireland to advance these proposals.

Mr. Scannell referred to two office blocks, one in Limerick and one in Galway. Out of curiosity, at what stage is the decision to build out made? Does one build out and then look for a client or look for a client when planning permission is received and only make the decision to build out when a client is in place? What is the intention or the business model?

Ms Mary Buckley

From an IDA Ireland perspective, our mandate is to attract overseas companies to Ireland and we have particular focus on balanced regional development, that is, to get investments either to locate or to expand in regional locations. We are in an intensely global environment so we compete very heavily for investments. In this regard, and as part of the competitive environment in which we find ourselves, many other countries and locations have buildings in place to meet the needs of FDI clients. As a result of the downturn in the construction industry and the fact that the private sector was failing to invest, we recognised that for us to achieve our targets and job creation in regional locations, one of our key requirements would be to deliver property solutions. We are constructing those buildings on this basis and working to achieve that. The key point, as alluded to by the Senator, is that from the outset, once we go for planning permission, we are marketing those buildings across the globe in order to find clients to occupy them. We have done this already on our own funding in three locations: Waterford, Athlone and Sligo. These buildings were constructed on the basis of a speculative nature. On the back of this, and because of our marketing and focus, we were able to find client companies for all three, committing overall to about 300 jobs and a €200 million investment across the board, so this has been very successful. We cannot fund the buildings ourselves, however, so we are keen to engage with ISIF in this regard and therefore need the legislative amendment before we can do anything. Then we will start to construct buildings again, market them and, it is hoped, find clients. That is the intention: to have clients in situ in the buildings shortly after their completion.

I have a question about IDA Ireland. Mr. Scannell said, "Another important provision in the proposed amendments is to allow the IDA to enter into borrowing arrangements to help finance such projects." I presume that these projects would be advance factories and buildings in general. Is there a definition of the type of project in which IDA Ireland can get involved? Could it get involved in a partnership with a pharmaceutical company, for example, which would be a heavy plant industry? What type of building, partnership or project could it get involved in if this legislation is passed?

Mr. Richard Scannell

Generally, the kind of project would be along the lines of the typical FDI projects that IDA Ireland has attracted to Ireland over many years. The draft heads, as members have seen, are not prescriptive to the extent of excluding certain projects. As I said, the projects in question would be very much along the lines of what has been developed here before, whether that be biopharma, financial services, global services or whatever. The principal project to begin with, however, is office buildings, which would clearly be more for global services and office-type industries, not heavy industrial or biopharma projects or anything like that.

This legislation would therefore not allow IDA Ireland to get any more deeply involved in partnerships with, for example, the pharmaceutical industry or companies that require heavy assets, as opposed to just advance factories, which are effectively empty shells of buildings.

Ms Mary Buckley

The Deputy is probably referring to our sites all around the country - for example, our landbanks at Ringaskiddy, etc.

Ms Mary Buckley

No. This is a pilot scheme that is enabling us to borrow to construct buildings.

What type of buildings are being constructed? Is it just advance factories or-----

Ms Mary Buckley

Office developments-----

Ms Mary Buckley

The pilot scheme is to construct two buildings in the National Technology Park in Limerick and also in Galway. They will be office developments.

So it is just offices then.

Ms Mary Buckley

Yes.

Does Deputy Quinlivan want to come back in on that point?

IDA Ireland is not restricting it to two buildings; it is-----

Ms Mary Buckley

On the basis that this is a pilot scheme, we must review it to see whether it is successful. Clearly, our partners will look to see if it is a success for them as well. We must also look to see at what point the private sector will go back and reinvest in property solutions around regional locations. We will have to consider a number of factors but the most important question is, based on the pilot, will the scheme be successful?

Mr. Scannell stated that IDA Ireland cannot fund any additional buildings. Am I correct in my understanding of what he said, namely, that this is the reason-----

Ms Mary Buckley

We are being encouraged by the Government to secure our own funding for buildings and not to be dependent on the Exchequer for it.

The committee was told previously that IDA Ireland proposed to build more advance factories.

Ms Mary Buckley

The Deputy is correct.

Is that funding guaranteed?

Ms Mary Buckley

No. IDA Ireland is funding them. We were supported by the Government to do so when we launched our strategy in 2015. Buildings have been constructed in Athlone, Waterford and Sligo and there are some under construction in other areas, including Dundalk, Limerick and Waterford.

Mr. Richard Scannell

The intention is not to displace or replace IDA Ireland property activities throughout the country. This is an additional mechanism to further help regional development.

What is the status of-----

Ms Mary Buckley

Work on many of them is well under way.

Ms Buckley has mentioned that IDA Ireland is entering into borrowing arrangements to finance projects and that there will be no additional cost to the Exchequer. Is this another way of borrowing off balance sheet?

Ms Mary Buckley

Yes. It is a means for IDA Ireland to do so and work with the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund in that regard.

Is this mechanism essential to the work of IDA Ireland in attracting foreign direct investment and developing new markets throughout the country?

Ms Mary Buckley

Yes. The Government and the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation are anxious that IDA Ireland find mechanisms to fund property solutions throughout the country. That must be done to enable us to attract companies to visit the regions and win us investments against international competition. That is our biggest challenge and it is intense across the globe.

Ms Buckley also said IDA Ireland borrowings for future projects would be subject to a statutory cap. Will she elaborate on that point?

Mr. Richard Scannell

On a statutory cap, IDA Ireland is working with NewERA which is a division of the NTMA on the limit. We are not yet in a position to finalise it, but it will be brought forth in the Bill when published. On the structure of the partnerships, the idea is that they will be structured in such a way that they will generate a return for IDA Ireland which can be used to pay down debt on projects. They will be cost effective and cost neutral for the Exchequer.

On off-balance sheet borrowing, am I correct that it would be off-balance sheet for IDA Ireland but not the State?

Mr. Richard Scannell

There have been discussions on that issue. Ultimately, the final arbiter on whether it is on or off balance sheet is EUROSTAT. IDA Ireland would prefer if it was off balance sheet, but it depends on the exact structure and model agreed. That will become clear in the future.

On the lead-in time in attracting foreign direct investment, what is the timeline between the identification of a company that is agreeable to locating in one of the regions and it moving into a premises? I understand the timeline will be affected by the type of company IDA Ireland is seeking to attract, but I imagine some of them would be back offices for financial services, as well as airline and shipping leasing firms. What I would like to know is the expected timeline between the identification of a company and its actual locating on site, taking into account the need for planning permission and so on because I know that often the type and specification of the building required may not fit with what is available.

Ms Mary Buckley

To compete on the international stage we have to have buildings in place. The timelines vary and are dependent on the location of buildings. One can bring a group of companies to view a particular building and some of them will know immediately that the location is ideal for them, while others will know that they would prefer to locate elsewhere, either within or outside Ireland. That is part and parcel of the business in which we are involved.

On the three buildings we constructed, they were all occupied within less than two years of construction. As such, they are deemed to be very successful projects for IDA Ireland. The knock-on effect nationally and locally is important. Each of the companies has invested separately in the buildings and providing additional employment. For every ten jobs created in attracting foreign direct investment seven jobs are created indirectly, never mind the employment created in construction which was a big piece of the projects. As I said, the timelines vary, but we are marketing the buildings to all sectors. While some may be constructed as manufacturing or technology buildings, they can be converted for office use. We are marketing for manufacturing and office type activities across the breadth of sectors.

On IDA Ireland's capacity as an organisation to manage property, I have noted that at other fora and committees people have not been as complimentary of IDA Ireland and others in managing properties. Does Ms Buckley have confidence in the capacity of IDA Ireland to manage the process of developing, building and sale of properties such that the taxpayer or the State will not have to pick up the tab, as has been the case previously with some of the properties managed by IDA Ireland when leases were not taken up and so on?

Until now Enterprise Ireland has taken an equity stake in companies. The officials said that under the proposed legislation, it would be able to lend to companies for start-up, expansion or the development an an overseas market. Why is it necessary for a State agency to become involved in lending? Is it because this is happening across Europe, because of risk aversion in the pillar banks or banks in general across the European Union, because Enterprise Ireland cannot access finance using traditional methods or because it is becoming involved in a space that was not previously open to it? What is the reason for the move away from equity based investment?

Mr. Kevin Sherry

Enterprise Ireland is moving into lending because for start-ups there is an increasing trend towards the use of a convertible loan note by investors, as opposed to ordinary equity. A percentage of private investors in early stage companies are investing by way of a convertible loan note. Currently, Enterprise Ireland does not have an instrument to match the convertible loan note. In that regard, the only instrument available to it is a convertible preference share. To be able to match private investors pari passu, we need an instrument that is in the form of a convertible loan note. As I said, the percentage of private investors who are using this mechanism is increasing. In 2016 that percentage was 35%. In 2017, for approximately 20% of the start-ups we backed, the investment by other parties was in the form of a convertible loan note. In the year to date, that percentage has increased to 25%. For ease of use, it would be better for the start-up company if it did not to have to deal with two types of instrument, one with the private sector and the other with Enterprise Ireland. If we could do it by way of a convertible loan note, we could have a common shareholding agreement, with the same terms and conditions.

Second, from a State perspective a convertible loan note will rank ahead of a convertible preference share. We want to ensure protection for the State's investment so it is really about ranking pari passu. Our mandate and focus have not changed. It is the financial instrument we use as opposed to us changing the mandate or the focus.

Ms Mary Buckley

On our capacity to manage the properties, IDA Ireland has been tasked with attracting FDI to Ireland for the last 70 years and a key part of that has been having a property portfolio and property solutions. Everybody will be familiar with our business parks and industrial estates around the country. We own our current buildings, the buildings to which we refer. We either lease or sell them to the companies. The Deputy may have been referring to buildings that were leased by the Government approximately 35 years ago.

What about lands that are not being used? There are lands where barley and wheat are being grown around the country that are classed as industrial parks.

Ms Mary Buckley

On the buildings, we are comfortable that our policies are very appropriate to the buildings and that when selling them we seek market value. That is how we achieve the sales figures. On our landbanks around the country, we always have landbanks available for potential clients. Some of them have longer lead times than others by virtue of the fact that some of them would be strategic in nature. We regularly lease our lands to farmers and so forth. There are efficiencies for us when we do that. It is part and parcel of what we do. We have lands that are utility intensive across the country that are marketed for FDI and indigenous clients.

One of the objectives of this Bill is to allow Enterprise Ireland to fund research activities outside the State. I assume they would be Irish companies. Is that correct?

Mr. Kevin Sherry

Yes.

My next question relates to IDA Ireland. Regarding the proposition of developing properties by means of partnerships, I am from Donegal and the witnesses will be aware of the objective a number of years ago of spreading new investment to ensure that 50% of new jobs were outside areas such as Dublin, Cork and, arguably, Galway. Do the witnesses see this as an advantage in reaching the objective of getting better balanced regional development and investment?

Second, a gateway strategy is being operated at present. Do the witnesses foresee seeking sites outside or will the gateway strategy be continued? In the north west, for example, the gateways are Letterkenny and Sligo. Is this an opportunity to examine options outside those gateway locations? That is a criticism that is made. My county stretches from the Inishowen Peninsula down to Killybegs and Bundoran. It is a huge area. Indeed, Belfast is closer to my home town of Buncrana than Bundoran. It is hard to get one's head around the geography of the place. As it is such a large area, many locations are unable to build their micro or local enterprise strategies on the gateway approach. That is not me using the parish pump but just being realistic about it. How does the potential opportunity that would arise from this Bill fit into better balanced regional development?

My final question is on research and development. Opening research and development opportunities is a very welcome potential of the Bill. However, one of the criticisms, particularly from SMEs, is that this is a very complex area with a great deal of red tape. One would have to have a large company that retains accountants and advisers so it almost skews the opportunity to the larger companies. Do the witnesses foresee the Bill giving Enterprise Ireland the opportunity to reach out in a better way to the SME sector and give it the opportunity to avail of research and development opportunities in a way that perhaps it cannot do at present?

Mr. Kevin Sherry

Regarding the changes on foot of this Bill, the legislation is not specifically focused on expanding them to SMEs. It is focused on areas in horticulture where, first, we must ensure there is an ability for us to provide research and development support for companies in that sector. Second, where there is no availability for companies to undertake certain research and development activities within the State because of the unavailability of a facility, such as for testing, we would be able to support those activities outside the State, always with the requirement that the amount of support that would be provided for the activities within the State would exceed the amount that would be devoted towards activities outside the State. The ultimate objective is that the resulting product or service would benefit Ireland in the form of additional jobs, sales and value added.

In terms of the access of SMEs to research and development supports and the encouragement of those companies, we are acutely aware of the need to encourage a greater number of companies to avail of research and development supports. Our experience is that companies that invest in research and development grow at a faster pace and have the ability to export more than companies that do not invest in research and development. With that in mind, at the beginning of this year we introduced a new support, Agile research and development, which is specifically focused on companies that are doing smaller and faster, in terms of a shorter timescale, research and development activities. We have started to scale up that level of activity and it is very much focused on companies that are looking for support for research and development projects costing up to €300,000. We would support up to 50% of that up to a value of €150,000 and the turnaround time objective for Enterprise Ireland for those companies is that we would turn that around for the companies within four weeks. That is to encourage more SMEs to undertake research and development. We are actively promoting that at present.

Mr. Richard Scannell

Regarding regional development, as far as IDA Ireland is concerned, this is squarely about regional development. The purpose of the new legislation is to allow for further construction in areas of the country where there has been inadequate construction. In fact, if the project in question is not in regional Ireland, it will not be permitted under the legislation. Ms Buckley can respond to the gateway point.

Ms Mary Buckley

We are very focused on locations where our clients would be comfortable to establish or expand their operations. They tend to have specific requirements. When our clients are looking at where to invest across the globe, the ability to attract and retain talent is a big issue for them. That is largely where we compete across the globe. When we have looked at buildings and where they are located it has been with regard to a number of factors. One is the existing clients that are already there. When companies are looking they want to see who is already there. Close proximity to third level colleges is an important point. Then there are other elements such as the indigenous client base and so forth that will all help to make the cluster stronger. That is one of the key requirements of our clients so we tend to focus on that. While we have constructed in Athlone, Waterford and Sligo, these are not by any means the largest urban centres in the country. That has been our focus. For us, we can go to a certain scale and after that it would be very challenging to construct buildings without having the confidence that we will able to fill them based on the needs of our clients.

Another aspect is important. Recently, the Government, through our parent Department, announced a regional fund and an urban and rural fund. Many have applied through the fund to construct buildings throughout the country. That might bring some opportunities as well.

In Donegal we had the big announcement from Abbott Ireland Diabetes Care earlier this year. From a talent perspective we have seen recruitment of people from around the whole area of Donegal by Pramerica, Optum, SITA and Zeus. These large companies are significant employers in Donegal. The great advantage is that there is a broad catchment area for them to recruit from. That is particularly important for us.

Several companies already established in the capital have expressed serious concern about cost of living issues for their employees. It strikes me that there may be an opportunity to look at companies based here and potentially locating some of their operations in the regions to address cost of living issues and to ensure sustainability. I appreciate that for understandable reasons the front of house operations will need to be in the capital. I am keen to get a sense of how IDA Ireland works on that.

Ms Buckley referenced Pramerica and Optum and so on. Pramerica represents an extraordinary story in Donegal. It started off with 18 local employees two decades ago and has increased to 1,800 today. These are really talented local people and the company has generated real local talent. The company has a great partnership with the local institute of technology. It is an exemplar. The difficulty is that I do not believe we are building new investment. Obviously, the company has expanded and it has been fantastic. However, I do not believe we have the additional or new investment that we could have secured. I want to get a sense of this from IDA Ireland. I realise I am focusing on Donegal but the issue of the capital expanding to the regions is relevant to the entire State.

Ms Mary Buckley

Senator Mac Lochlainn made a point about companies being located in Dublin. Our strategy, which we launched in 2015, is heavily focused on regional development. We have focused across the board on getting investments to locate in all regions throughout the country. For the first time ever we have been heavily targeting the area of regional development and regional targets. We actively market regional locations to our clients, who are looking at other locations throughout the globe as well. That is a key priority for us.

I wish to highlight that 70% of our business comes from our existing client base. We work hard to win that business because these firms have sister sites throughout the globe. Those countries compete to win the business as do other locations where authorities like IDA Ireland are willing to win investment for the first time. We have talked about the investments, including in Abbott, which, announced over 300 jobs in Donegal town. These are hard-fought-for and hard-won. They are really important. When I meet officials from local authorities I tell them the most important aspect is looking after our existing client base and ensuring that everything is working there. Existing clients are the reference sellers for new investments and the bulk of our investments come from the existing clients.

Senator Mac Lochlainn made a point on Dublin. We have a strong focus, as part of our regional targets and investment wings, on working and engaging with companies that are based not only in Dublin but in other urban centres as well. We are looking for them to locate activities in second sites throughout the country. That is not unusual. Abbott is a prime example and has several locations throughout the country. This is something we do and we have had considerable success with companies having two-site locations. Optima is a good example because it has operations in Dublin and in Letterkenny. We have seen a good deal of investment throughout the country along these lines. We continue to strive to work to highlight to companies the advantages of operating in regional locations. Many of our clients are happy to expand activities in different locations but it goes back all the time to the question of whether they will get the talent and whether the talent will be available. When we can answer those questions competently, many of them are happy to look at other regional locations. Many of them are happy to grow and expand in Dublin as well but what we call a second-site solution is very much a focus for us.

We also encourage home-working with our client base and many have taken up this possibility. In fact, a company called Shopify in Galway is 100% home-working. All its employees come from around the region. Apple in Cork has home-working with 6,000 employees throughout the country. Home and remote working are actively encouraged and progressed by IDA Ireland to meet our regional targets.

I wish to go back to the disposal of land or the disposal of an advance factory or a purpose-built factory. Does such a move require ministerial consent for disposal? In developing a property, is the consent of the Minister sought in advance of the development or at the end of the development? When does Ministerial consent come into being for disposal? I am asking because the continuity of policies and views of a Minister may change with the Minister or Government. When is the consent required? Is it at the start or the end?

Ms Mary Buckley

Consent is required at the stage when we are selling a building. Let us suppose we have a building. Under legislation all our buildings are for manufacturing and internationally traded services activities. They tend to be for Enterprise Ireland or IDA Ireland client companies. If we decide that we are selling a building and we sell ultimately to a non-IDA Ireland or Enterprise Ireland client, we then have to seek ministerial consent.

Mr. Richard Scannell

I wish to comment on that. Under the model in operation if IDA Ireland is to contribute land as part of the partnership proposal the plan requires the explicit consent of the Minister as well. This is because anytime IDA Ireland disposes of land for a purpose that is not strictly one of industrial development consent is required. There is strict and continual ministerial oversight throughout the process from the start to the end.

The legislation states the requirement. Does that mean it is a good idea or a bad idea? We could potentially have an investment made by IDA Ireland to develop a factory or building with disposal as its intention. Then a change of political head could have a different view of the stated policy. We could end up with a situation whereby there could be a refusal to dispose of land even though the original proposal involved disposing it. The consent is like a soft wind.

Ms Mary Buckley

Let us suppose we are referring to the sale of land not purchased recently. It may have been purchased some years ago and, therefore, it may have been used or we may take the view that if we sell this site it could help us to acquire a site in another part of the country. It only depends on to whom we are selling the site. If we are selling a site to non-manufacturing or internationally-traded IDA Ireland or Enterprise Ireland clients, then the process requires ministerial consent. It could not really happen at the beginning because at that point we would not know who the potential client might be.

There is a vote, Chairman, and unfortunately we will not get to return from it.

I am keen to understand the link between IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland. Is there close co-operation in terms of site provision and supports for Enterprise Ireland companies in IDA Ireland industrial estates where spare capacity may be available? Is there a good relationship? I have always taken the view that is great potential for crossover of ideas, resources and use of facilities. It is not only a question of shared physical facilities. Is the capacity of both organisations being well utilised by each other for the common good?

Ms Mary Buckley

I will answer first and then Mr. Sherry may give his opinion.

Perhaps I have not been clear enough.

Ms Mary Buckley

No, I understand what Deputy Kelleher is saying. The IDA Ireland perspective is that we work closely with Enterprise Ireland.

It has access to our land banks and any building in all of our parks. If it has a potential client that is seeking to take any of the buildings we have constructed or one of our land banks, we work closely with it and are positively disposed to doing so. That is usually how it goes. Two or three years ago in Belview we had an important site that was acquired by Glanbia as a client of Enterprise Ireland for a significant manufacturing project that brought many jobs to the region. We worked in partnership with Enterprise Ireland and did the same more recently in the midlands. We worked hand in glove with it.

Mr. Kevin Sherry

We work very closely, not just in the use of existing buildings and sites. We are also in discussions on where we would like to see further facilities to ensure their development and availability for our clients. At any one time we are talking about a number of specific developments.

Mr. Richard Scannell

Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland do not need encouragement from the Department. They co-operate very effectively with one another daily. From a departmental perspective, we encourage the highest levels of co-operation. We see daily that the agencies work well together.

I thank the officials for coming to brief the committee. I propose that we adjourn and deal with private business at the start of the next meeting on Tuesday.

Yes. That concludes our business for today.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.35 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Tuesday, 13 November 2018.
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