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Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs debate -
Wednesday, 24 Jan 2018

Affordable Child Care Scheme and Related Matters: Discussion

I welcome from the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, Dr. Fergal Lynch, Secretary General, who has stayed with us, and Ms Bernie McNally, assistant secretary, Ms Laura McGarrigle, principal officer, and Mr. Toby Wolfe, assistant principal, all of whom have joined us. I thank them for their attendance.

I ask members and witnesses to turn off their mobile telephones or switch them to flight mode in order to ensure that they do not interfere with the broadcasting and reporting of the meeting. Members are reminded of a long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or any official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Submissions or opening statements made to the committee will be published on its website after the meeting.

I understand the Minister will make a short presentation, after which we will have questions and answers.

I am pleased to update members on the progress made on the affordable child care scheme and, importantly, the success of the measures implemented by my Department since September to improve access to affordable, quality child care. When we last met some months ago, I outlined a series of measures that had been put in place in time for September 2017. These measures were aimed at reducing the cost of child care for families and improving access to quality child care for those families who need it most. They included, for the first time, a non-means tested universal subsidy of up to €1,040 per year for children under three years of age. They also included significantly increased targeted supports for families to assist with child care costs, facilitate return to education and employment and, where needed, intervention for children and families that need such support. The timeframe for the implementation of these measures was tight and relied in no small part on the co-operation and engagement of child care services throughout the country.

I am delighted to report that the measures have been a great success. To their credit, 88% of applicable child care services signed up to deliver these affordability measures. I recognised this effort and the administrative contribution made by child care services in delivering these changes by sanctioning an additional €3.5 million in non-contact time payments to child care services. This brings the total amount paid to early years care and education services in recognition of non-contact or administrative input to €18 million in 2017. I have secured €18 million in my base again for 2018 and onwards.

The information campaign to raise awareness of the new measures among parents has achieved its aims. Across the full suite of measures, as of 12 January, almost 66,000 of our estimated 70,000 children, or 94%, are now registered for supports. This number will continue to grow throughout the year as the door remains open for both parents and providers to sign up.

On the universal subsidy, of the 33,000 children estimated to be eligible, almost 31,000, or 94%, have registered to date. This means the families of almost 31,000 children are now gaining a financial benefit on par with what they will receive when the full affordable child care scheme launches.

On the targeted measures, slightly more than 35,000 children are benefiting across a range of schemes, receiving as much as €145 per child per week, which is a substantial increase on what was previously available.

Last April, I promised to ensure that the funds secured to provide these benefits would be delivered to families in 2017. I am delighted that, through the hard work of child care providers, with officials from my Department and Pobal, we have been able to fulfil that promise. I continue to encourage the small number of outstanding additional providers to sign up. I also encourage parents with children under three years in registered child care to apply for the universal subsidy, which can amount to the equivalent of six weeks free child care based on the average figures nationally. Parents can log onto our dedicated website, affordablechildcare.ie, or contact their local county child care committee for further information.

Alongside improvements to affordability, I am committed to ensuring that quality child care is also inclusive and accessible to all families. We have made good progress in achieving this objective. In the past three budgets, we secured a cumulative increase in the budget for early years of an unprecedented 80%. I also commissioned an independent review of the cost of delivering quality child care by the firm, Crowe Howarth. This report will be available by the end of the summer and will inform my proposals for further investment in the sector in budget 2019. I regularly remind the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, of this.

We have taken tangible steps to make child care services more inclusive. Since its introduction in 2016, our access and inclusion model, AIM, has provided targeted supports to almost 5,000 children. Its universal measures have benefited thousands more and will continue to do so. Equality, diversity and inclusion training is being rolled out across the country and has now reached 2,750 early years staff. A total of 847 inclusion co-ordinators have received specialist qualifications under the leadership for inclusion programme and a further 857 early years staff have enrolled for the programme this year.

Packs of special sensory toys are about to be delivered to over 6,000 preschool rooms across the country, and training in practical skills, such as sign language, sensory integration and other specialised training is being offered free of charge to the services. We have also ended decades of uncertainty by commencing mandatory reporting as part of the full roll-out of the Children First Act 2015. These changes are child-centred and tangible, and will leave a legacy for our children and our society in the years to come.

While advancing these initiatives, we have also worked intensively on preparing the various components for the introduction of the fully-fledged affordable child care scheme, ACS. We have been working on the technical, administrative and legislative aspects, and I am happy to report that significant progress has been made in the scheme's development on each count. On the legislative components, the Childcare Support Bill 2017 was published on 12 December alongside a regulatory impact analysis of the scheme. The Bill is an essential element in the development of the affordable childcare scheme, ensuring that it operates on a robust, rigorous and transparent statutory footing. From the outset, I am very grateful to the committee for its participation in supporting moving it to that point. It also enables the sharing of data with the applicant's consent, which in turn facilitates a fast, user-friendly and innovative approach to automated assessment and approval of applications.

A key priority for me during the coming weeks and months will be to support the passage of the Childcare Support Bill 2017 through the Houses of the Oireachtas in a timely manner. The early passage of the legislation is important in order to limit potential risks to the information and communications technology, ICT, development timelines and costs for the scheme. This is because any potential changes that may arise during the legislative process could affect the requirements already set out for ICT development. The earlier the legislation is passed, the more security can be given regarding ICT development timelines.

Since announcing the creation of the ACS, I have been constant in my belief that the development of this system must meet the highest standards of scrutiny and testing so that it can form the basis for generations of investment in child care in Ireland. To this end, we submitted our plans for the development of the main IT system for the ACS to scrutiny by a peer review group at the Office of the Government Chief Information Officer, OGCIO. This is to ensure that we are meeting the best standards across a range of measures and that mistakes of previous national IT projects are not repeated. We passed the first stage of the peer review group process in September of last year. I am delighted to announce today that the OGCIO has now approved the request for tender, RFT, stage. The RFT stage is a critical one and has required intensive input from all parties to get it right.

Although it is great news that the RFT has now been approved, we have experienced some delays during this stage. Originally, we had proposed to procure the IT system via a framework agreement. However, after detailed legal scrutiny of this agreement by the Chief State Solicitor's office, we concluded that it was not suitable for this particular development and, accordingly, an alternative approach is now being progressed. This entails a full open tender procurement process which is, by its nature, lengthier and more complex than procuring services under a framework agreement. The Chief State Solicitor's office gave us priority and has worked intensively with us to ensure that a rigorous, quality procurement process is conducted in the shortest possible timeframe. My Department, in turn, is working closely with Pobal regarding the subsequent awarding and management of the contract.

Before I discuss the timeframe for the ACS, I would like to add a further point regarding the management of the project. It may be worth noting that the programme review group, PRG, has provided positive feedback on the quality of documentation provided and the project management and governance structures that have been established and are being implemented in the process of the development of the scheme. The PRG also confirmed its positive views on data protection measures planned for the ACS. In regard to administrative and other components, I note that other aspects of the scheme’s general development, such as governance frameworks, data protection policies and procedures, communications strategies and administrative arrangements are also progressing as planned.

While much has been achieved, it is not possible to set out a definitive timeline for the scheme’s launch at this time. As I discussed with the committee previously, this is because the timeframe is dependent upon ICT development. We will publish the RFT in the next couple of days. Once we have completed this stage of the IT element of the project and have the successful developer in place, we will be able to confirm and communicate a timeline for the full introduction of the scheme. I am committed to updating colleagues on this as soon as possible. However, given the predetermined timelines involved in an open tender process, I can confirm that the present suite of supports for families, that is, the measures introduced last September, will continue in September 2018.

The introduction of the full ACS marks a radical redesign of the legal and technical infrastructure underpinning the Government’s subvention of child care in this country. The scheme will provide a flexible, sustainable and high-quality platform for future investment and for future generations. It is, therefore, a system that deserves to be robustly designed and developed and rigorously tested to ensure we get it right the first time and that it serves us well over the long-term. Families in Ireland and providers of early years care and education deserve no less. While we continue this critical work, I want to remind the committee that the vast majority of those who will be eligible for support via the ACS when the full website and all the other aspects are in place are already receiving comparable supports through the interim measures put in place by my Department from last September. In other words, I have sought to fast-track many of the benefits of the ACS without compromising on the rigour and time needed to develop and launch this landmark new scheme.

Budget 2018 also enabled a focus on quality measures, as outlined previously, including an increase to early childhood care and education, ECCE, capitation from September of this year to further support early years providers. I will be happy to answer any questions.

I wish to reassure members that I am not asking any questions. I wish to make a statement because I have to leave. I would like to say that I am really bowled over by this. I think it is absolutely wonderful. For as long as I have been a member of this Government, this is its most remarkable achievement. I am delighted that I have witnessed this unfold. I thank the Minister, her team and her Department.

I thank the Senator.

I would like to start by acknowledging the work of the Minister in this area and in the context of her portfolio in general. I mean no disrespect to former Ministers, but I think she is the most progressive individual who has worked in this area.

I do have a few criticisms as well, but I think-----

I am warmed up now.

I will start with the good news. It is not an easy role, and I think the Minister is doing a good job.

My first question on the ACS concerns the review. I welcome that, and I am looking forward to seeing exactly what will be contained in it, as are many others. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, was mentioned. If it is the case that the cost of childcare is a lot more than is currently being provided, which I think will be the result, does the Minister foresee measures in the next budget to deal with this?

My other question relates to the providers and the workers in the sector. As the Minister knows, it is an issue that I feel very strongly about and have raised on several occasions. More and more in my own constituency, child care facilities are being forced to close. It is due to the fact that whatever they are getting in capitation, which I appreciate was increased in the last budget, is just not enough to help them run the business.

Staff wage increases are out the window. Many people are leaving the sector to go into childminding in their own homes because that is more affordable for them. Many quality staff are being lost and if we are not careful there will be a further crisis in this area. In my constituency it is very difficult to get a child care place. It is a strange situation because there is massive demand for such places but, unfortunately, providers are unable to keep going and often unable to retain staff. I ask the Minister to comment on those issues.

On the childminding sector, there are some links between Childminding Ireland and the working group but would the Minister consider strengthening those links such that Childminding Ireland would encourage more childminders to register? I understand 120 are currently registered with Tusla. Much of the fear for childminders is that if they come out of the woodwork, for want of a better phrase, there might be tax implications relating to what they have been earning. Childminding Ireland is well placed to be able to reassure childminders and the links with it could be strengthened.

As regards the access and inclusion model, AIM, training, it is possible it has changed but I understand there is a lottery system for people to attend it. There are many facilities which would really benefit from that training and could use it straight away, while people from other facilities that perhaps do not need it as urgently are being trained because of the lottery system. What is the Minister's view in that regard? It is possible that was an initial way of introducing the training and it has since changed.

What are the guidelines in terms of getting a special needs assistant, SNA, for children in the pre-school year?

I thank the Deputy for her questions, her massive commitment to the area and the motions she has put forward in that regard. As regards her first set of questions, concerning the costs and work of the sector and staff remuneration, she knows I am in full agreement with her in that regard. She also knows I have raised these issues with the sector and my colleagues in Government in the context of the importance of finding ways to address them and that the providers and people involved must be a significant aspect of the focus of investment, in particular in terms of the next budget, in the development of this radical new approach to child care, the framework and the structures for generations to come. As the Deputy knows, that will form a significant aspect of the detail of negotiating measures in the budget for that part of my portfolio.

I do not yet know exactly what we will do differently in looking for investment specifically for the sector because there is still much work to be done but that is going to be a significant aspect of my focus. The sector responded very positively and professionally to the past couple of budgets and the investment in the providers and, in particular, the cost for families, with which we must also deal. Providers have been patient in recognising that much of that investment is to address the affordability issue. This budget is our chance to address the issue of staff remuneration and that is what I have to find investment for. I understand how difficult it is to keep staff and to what extent people in the sector have upgraded and educated themselves in terms of qualifications, etc., with the support of my Department and the Government. Such staff have been willing to step up to the plate with, and for, us and I must convince my colleagues that they require appropriate remuneration and that there will be serious consequences within the next year or two if that is not given. I can see that coming to the same extent as Deputy Funchion and am very cognisant of it. There is much work to do and the independent review of costs will be a key aspect of it. That will provide us with numbers, rationale and international comparisons, etc.

The Deputy identified that some child care facilities may be forced to close. The Deputy knows how upset that would make me and that my Department is available and has worked with many such facilities to ensure they do not close. If the Deputy is aware of any facilities that have closed or are about to close and have not worked with my Department, I ask her to point them in our direction.

As regards the question on childminding, I have in the past few days received the report of the childminding working group of the early years forum and I will be meeting it within the next two weeks to discuss that very hefty, strong and good report. We will take some time to go through it and begin work on an action plan for its implementation in the short, medium and longer terms. I expect that action plan will address as much movement as possible on the issue and the support for the childminders.

I ask Ms McNally or Ms McGarrigle to deal with the detail of the questions regarding AIM training and the lottery system.

Ms Bernie McNally

When AIM was established we created 900 leadership for inclusion in early years, LINC, places, per year for four years and the scheme can thereafter be extended if required. That would broadly cover most early years settings. We were overwhelmed by the huge response in the first year of LINC. Deputy Funchion referred to a lottery. We tried to ensure there was a geographical distribution and so on and to take an equitable and objective approach to it but some people were disappointed. We have now opened the second year to huge interest once more but it is probable that fewer people have been disappointed. Some 857 graduated last year and approximately 850 have started the second year. There will be at least another two years of LINC. I hope that every service committed to inclusion will be able to access the course, which won an award for best online training and has been a great partnership-----

It is a very good course but some providers with a high number of children with additional needs did not receive a place on the course while other providers with fewer children with additional needs did. It is always difficult to figure that out. It is good to hear that more people are doing it this year.

Ms Bernie McNally

Did the Deputy also ask about SNA guidelines?

Ms Bernie McNally

We do not call them special needs assistants because we are taking a different approach from that in the primary school system. AIM is about identifying a child's needs and the setting needs and there are seven layers of support. The final level of support is to reduce the ratio in the pre-school room. The pre-school leader rather than a person with a lesser qualification may end up working with the child. We may facilitate an additional adult in the room to assist the leader spend more time with the child who has needs, etc., such that there could be two similarly qualified people in the room. We appreciate that staffing issues are being experienced around the country and that the difficulty in accessing staff is an issue and is impacting on AIM but we have made that funding available. Over 2,000 children accessed supports to have an additional adult in the room last year and we are continuing to work very actively on implementing that and addressing the staffing issue which we know exists.

I very much welcome the Minister, her report and the update. I share the sentiments expressed by Deputy Funchion and Senator Freeman regarding the progress that has been made to date.

I believe the Government is really trying to tackle the area of child care, which had been neglected for many years, looking at it not only from a societal point of view but an economic point of view in light of the changes in this area down through the years. Child care was one of the main issues raised with us on the doorsteps in 2016. I am sure members of the Opposition received the same feedback.

On the development of the IT system, it was stated that this will be done through a full open procurement process as opposed to a framework agreement. Am I correct that the Department has chosen to go that route because it has to be more flexible given that there may be changes in legislation? Perhaps the witnesses would clarify that. It was also stated a full open procurement process would be a lengthier process. What is the proposed timeframe around the putting in place of the necessary legislation and the installation of the new IT system?

It was also stated that the current suite will be used in 2018. I assume that when the new model is in place there will be a migration from the old model to the new one. As a member of the Joint Committee on the Future of Mental Health Care I support what the Minister is trying to do. I am positive that what is being done will be done correctly and that we will get this right. We all recall the debacle ten or 12 years ago surrounding the installation of PPARS. I would ask the Department to be mindful of the mistakes made in that regard. I want to see this succeed for the good of the country, such that it can be used as the benchmark for future models. I know that the IT systems being used in the mental health services are archaic and real time reporting is a problem. IT systems are important in terms of user activity and addressing waiting lists. I believe that this new system, when implemented, will not only be of assistance in terms of what we are doing in the child care space but it will also have a knock-on effect in the mental health care services area. As I said, I have a vested interest in mental health care services. There is potential for this system to be used in areas other than child care. I ask the health authorities to keep a close eye on its implementation so that it might be used a benchmark for future models.

I thank the Deputy for his generous comments. His last point is an excellent one. I agree that development of this major IT infrastructure programme, which will bring together information from the Department of Social Protection and the Revenue Commissioners and, thus, bring us into the 21st century in terms of infrastructure for Government services, will bring about learning for the development process for other IT initiatives, be they to amend what already exists in the mental health arena or to create something new. It is important we do not repeat the mistakes of the past and that we get this right so that the pay-off will be not only child care infrastructure but will be beyond that indicated by Deputy Neville. The people who are overseeing this process, including officials from my Department, the peer review group and members of the other groups established in this context, and providing us with expertise in this area may be able to offer us expertise on how to shorten timeframes as we move forward on other initiatives in the future.

The process of procurement that we have adopted for the website developer team has contributed to the increase in the timeframe for the development of this project. We propose to move from a framework agreement in terms of procurement of developers to a full open tender process. A tender document comprises more than 1,000 pages. It will take a couple of weeks to read a tender document of that size. We have opted for an open tender process as distinct from the framework agreement put in place by Pobal. We also considered other framework agreements. A full analysis was undertaken of the entire open tender process versus the framework agreements process and it was ultimately decided that an open tender approach to the procurement process was necessary to ensure the most robust procurement for a large-scale IT project. That is the approach we were advised to take and we ultimately decided to do that. The project will be put out to open tender and applicants will have just under 50 days to submit an application. The applications will then be reviewed and we hope and expect that we will have a contract in place within 25 weeks and work will commence in July 2018. I hope that explains the reason for the approach we have taken and the expected timeframe of the process of procurement. As I said, once the contractor has been selected we will be in a stronger position to identify when the development of the processes will be completed. In this regard, the indicative timeframe is May 2019. However, this cannot be confirmed until such time as a contract has been agreed, etc. We expect to be providing subsidies for September 2019. As I indicated, as of September 2018, families may apply for their subsidies in the same way as they did in September 2017. As we move towards September 2019, there will be a migration to the new model and this will be fully communicated as the process progresses.

Ms Bernie McNally

On the point about transitioning, our operations team is looking at how we transition from the existing schemes to the new affordable child care scheme.

That is very much part of the project plan and a huge amount of attention will be given to that issue. We have already started that journey. We will have national roadshows. We had eight roadshows last year on the September measures, so there will be huge communication with providers and parents several months in advance to prepare them for that transition. I would reiterate what the Minister has just said, that this scheme is going to deal with a range of different family needs and so forth. In terms of the 1,000 pages to which the Minister referred, there are very detailed functional specifications set out to assist the tender, identify and give us exactly what we need. A huge amount of work has been done on that to make sure that there is no creep and that the developer knows exactly what is required. The advice was that we could have looked at the Pobal framework, the Office of Government Procurement, OGP, framework or the open tender option. The latter was deemed to be the best in terms of giving us the most robust procurement. The Minister has set out the timeframes already. The May timeframe to which the Minister refers is indicative purely for the request for tender, RFT. The project board, that is the governance structure over the affordable child care scheme, ACS, would say that it does not want to confirm a timeframe as of yet because good practice is to wait, as the Minister said, until the vendor is in place and has had an opportunity to look at everything and determine that it is realistic and reasonable.

Once this is signed off, I would emphasise the importance of ensuring that the Department's in-house consultants are on the same level as the vendor in terms of knowledge. We do not want to see a power shift to the outsourced vendor who could then hold us to ransom. I am not saying that the vendor would do that but I am just flagging the risk. We must think ahead two or four years. We must make sure that there is a shift towards the Department in the context of knowledge transfer and training so that the State is in full control of that system. I understand that maintenance and so forth will require the input of the vendor but the balance of power must lie with the Department. It is important from an ownership and usage point of view that the Department would call all of the shots.

The Deputy makes an excellent point.

I wish to make a couple of remarks myself, if I may. It is fair to say that in building on the initiatives of recent years, including the free scheme, tremendous progress has been made in the relatively recent past on which the Minister and her Department must be commended. Moving us away from having the most expensive child care service in Europe towards having one of the most affordable systems for both parents and the State is entirely positive. I am heartened to hear that funding is in place for next year for the existing arrangements on affordable child care. I would operate on the assumption that such funding is guaranteed until such time as the universal child care subsidies are in place, although ultimately that is a matter for Dáil Éireann. The expenditure commitments that I would like to see are very important to that overall objective, as the Minister herself has inferred on a number of occasions.

One such commitment to which I wish to draw attention is a percentage of GDP target or average. In the area of overseas development aid, for instance, there is a long-standing commitment to commit a certain percentage of our GDP to overseas aid which we have failed miserably to reach, repeatedly. Indeed, we have not even come near to reaching it. In terms of the overall objectives of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, this committee and the Government, I would like to see us spelling out our commitments with regard to how we propose to afford a reasonable level of per capita spending on child care services and the importance of doing same, not just in terms of a conducive environment for children but also in facilitating parents to do other things, whether that be education, work or otherwise.

The legislative process is something on which the Minister can comment in terms of timelines. I appreciate that the legalities of the tender are something she cannot comment on. The Bill that the Minister mentioned, which is on First Stage, is due back in the House this month, if I am not mistaken. That is an important part of this. Will the Minister confirm that there is only one Bill involved or will there be several legislative elements to this suite of measures that she is attempting to implement?

I am assuming that the tender process is going to have the usual cooling off period, if a tenderer emerges, of course, because this is probably incredibly complex. Has the Department looked at other jurisdictions and how they tackle this issue? Has it looked at how others have operated in pinning together various Departments that would have the knowledge the Department of Children and Youth Affairs would need to access in order to determine a means test, who is eligible for what, how the scheme is going to be implemented and what effect it will have on child care service providers in certain communities that might have an over concentration of parents with huge eligibility or very limited eligibility? Crucially, has the Department given any consideration to examining commercial rates? I appreciate that rates are not directly within the Minister's remit but commercial rates are one of the biggest bugbears of service providers to whom I have spoken. The knock-on effect of commercial rates is an increase in costs to the user. There is incredible disparity from one county to the next. Some local authorities are very good with regard to setting rates while others are punitive. As a former entrepreneur and sole trader, I see commercial rates as a cost of doing business but I also recognise that the margins are pretty tight in the child care field. Is the issue of commercial rates one that the Minister will consider?

Aside from just throwing cash at service providers, on a per child basis, is there something that the Minister could look at structurally that makes child care businesses more viable? Will there be some sort of national approach to this so that local authorities still get some, but not enormous, benefit? At the end of the day, I appreciate that businesses are being run, profits are being made, staff are being paid and so on. However, child care is such an integral part of our communities that perhaps it is time for the Government to look at this in a way that recognises that child care is not just a commercial activity but is also about the child, about education and about affording parents the time to do other things. In that context, it is important to look at it in a slightly different way from other businesses.

I agree with the Chairman's comments about ensuring that we move from having one of the most expensive to having one of the most affordable child care systems. I take on board his remarks about reviewing our targets in terms of the percentage of GDP spent on child care in the context of negotiating funding for increased investment. Many Deputies have referred, in response to the last few budgets, to the importance of moving towards increased investment as a percentage of GDP. Of course, if our GDP goes up then even if we do not increase the target in percentage terms, we spend more. I am glad that the Deputy reminded me of that point and I promise to look at it in the context of preparing for the next set of negotiations.

We have been thinking we are very far behind in this context and what do we need to do to catch up, but we will look at it more realistically and ensure those arguments are brought to bear in the next set of negotiations. I agree with the Chairman on this aspect and I believe it is worth renewing our focus on that.

We will have one Bill and regulations. My understanding is that the process will probably start in the Dáil on 31 January, which is great. I expect the co-operation of all members of the committee to move it quickly through the Dáil. We will do that together.

On the question around procurement and getting a provider or developer, the timeframe I mentioned includes a cooling-off period. Our ICT steering group has considered best practice in this area.

Regarding the commercial rates issue, I certainly have looked at that previously. The Chairman is right to raise it again. It is a very important issue regarding costs. My officials have engaged with the Department of Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform and other relevant Departments to discuss this issue. My understanding is that such change would require a legislative change. I will be raising this with my Government colleagues. There is a strong case to be made for this. As the Chairman put it, the purpose of such provision may not be fully commercial, which is part of the argument in terms of the educational aspect. There should be scope for change. At the very least we should have another go at this and we have been engaging on it, but it would require a legislative change. That is another aspect we would need to consider.

Many of the questions I wished to raise have been answered already and I will not repeat them. One question I have relates to a matter Deputy Neville raised. What role will the child care providers play in the ICT roll-out of the scheme? I am concerned about their involvement in the new ICT set-up. Is that being factored into the way the scheme will be rolled out in regard to data or will they have a role in it?

I would have to make up the answer to that and it would probably be right, but I will ask Ms McGarrigle to answer it.

Ms Laura McGarrigle

In regard to child care providers, the intention is that parents will apply directly for subsidies under the affordable child care scheme. When approved for a subsidy, they will receive a unique reference number which they will take to the provider of their choice. The provider, in agreeing to provide services to that family, will, in turn, log on to the website and register the child using that unique number. In that way the system will be able to join up the approval of the subsidy with the payment of that subsidy to the parents' chosen provider.

That is gorgeous. I like that.

There will be training, information and all of that but, effectively, that is what will happen in the end.

That goes without saying.

Ms Laura McGarrigle

A consultative group is already in place. As part of our governance structures around the development of the affordable child care scheme, we have various groups, and among those there are consultative groups already in place where we engage with the representatives of providers to ensure we get their input into and perspectives on our processes.

That is important. I thank Ms McGarrigle for that clarification. I have two questions about the heads of the Bill. One relates to the 15 hours provision in the case of low-income parents where both parents may not be working for whatever reason. There was a big conversation around this last year. What is the position on the 15 hours provision? Has that remained under the heads of the Bill?

We have the Bill now.

My question relates to the 15 hours provision for low-income families.

Ms Bernie McNally

I am happy to answer that question. The way the policy paper was developed in the first place was that the 15 hours came from evidence that children benefit from 15 hours of care and education etc. Beyond that, we know, for example, that very long hours in low-quality services may not be good for children. Therefore, that was a consideration. The Bill certainly allows that where there are children who may be vulnerable for one reason or another, be it homelessness, teenage pregnancy or a variety of other reasons, sponsor agreements can be entered into with Tusla, the HSE, the Department of Education and Skills and the Department of Justice and Equality. We can make a facility that children will receive much more than 15 hours. It could be 40 hours. That is very much central to the legislation. The 15 hours provision would be set in the regulation. There is the possibility in it of changing that if required. We would pull back to the type of evidence that exists on this. We want to do what is right for children across a range of issues. We want to get the best outcomes for them. That might include, on some occasions, assisting the parents into employment and avoiding them getting into a poverty trap. It is a complex area. That is our rationale here. There are a number of children in this context whom public health nurses etc. have referred. The sponsor agreement will be very much set out in the legislation.

Is the pot of money that might be ring-fenced for those sponsor agreements held within the city and county child care committees, CCCs, within the Tusla budget, a HSE budget or within the Department budget? Once people have identified the need, who would they approach? I am just trying to understand the ring-fencing of the funding. Have the witnesses got to the stage of working out that part of it?

Ms Bernie McNally

I might pass that question to Ms. McGarrigle. We are still working through on that. Currently, the budget is with us. The CCCs administer certain elements on our behalf but the budget is currently with the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. We are working this through with the other Departments.

Ms Laura McGarrigle

As alluded to by Ms McNally, the Bill provides an enabling framework to allow us to have different sponsor agreements with different bodies depending on the specific issue we are addressing. Generally speaking, the intention is that the funds to support the sponsor agreements are within the overall budget for the affordable child care scheme. In other words, if it is decided that a child should be getting 40 hours of child care a week under these agreements rather than, say, 15 hours, that would be funded. That subsidy would be provided through the affordable child care scheme budget. That said, we will need to work out the sponsor agreement with each agency because there could be nuances within that depending on whether an agency is also contributing something towards the child care cost.

Perfect. My understanding is that the money is held within the Department of Children and Youth Affairs.

Lone parents who are trying to get back into education or full-time employment would also qualify for that. There would be the opportunity for them to apply for this depending on who the sponsor would be.

Ms Bernie McNally

Yes. There is a definition of work and study in the Bill. Some of the childcare that will be made available is not only for parents who are working but for parents who are engaged in training. We need to keep a good wide definition of training because it may be very structured training but sometimes it may be more informal. It is about how people are doing their best and struggling to get a job etc. There will be a definition of work and study in the Bill which will provide for people being brought into the scheme through the mainstream route and the sponsor agreements will be for slightly different groups of children and families who might be in a slightly more vulnerable position.

I welcome that. I assume the opportunities available to access it will be through the education and training boards, ETBs, or other sponsors as part of the education sphere, or will the person be able to make an application to the Department, or have the witnesses thought that out yet?

Ms Laura McGarrigle

In regard to the sponsor agreements?

How would, for example, a single mother trying to get back into education access that funding? I assume it will not be through the provider.

Through health care subsidiary funding.

Ms Laura McGarrigle

The definitions of work and study in applying for a child care subsidy under the affordable child care scheme where an applicant qualifies under those definitions will be recorded in the application and will be acknowledged.

That is how it will proceed. It is part of the main application.

That is very welcome. I thank Ms McGarrigle.

I thank the Deputy, and the Minister and her personnel on behalf of all members of the committee. I thank the members for their engagement and the witnesses for their responses. They answered pretty much everything fully and that is very much appreciated.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.10 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 7 February 2018.
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