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Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs debate -
Wednesday, 9 May 2018

Governance and Child Protection Policy: Scouting Ireland

I welcome members and viewers watching on Oireachtas TV to the public session of the Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs. The purpose of today's meeting is to engage with Scouting Ireland in regard to governance, how child protection policies in Scouting Ireland are implemented and related matters. The committee may also wish to explore matters such as the recent events that have resulted in reputational damage to Scouting Ireland, how it can reassure parents who have genuine concerns in respect of those events, the effect of the suspension of funding on Scouting Ireland, how the funding can be restored and what Scouting Ireland will do to achieve that.

I wish to advise members that although there have been media reports on the matter, it is important to note that the committee must not discuss individual cases or anything which is or is likely to be the subject of court proceedings and should avoid using individuals' names, whether those names are in the public domain or not. In that context, it is also important to note that it is possible to identify an individual by using his or her title. Members should also be aware that an investigation by Ms Lorna Lynch, BL, is currently under way into the actions of a number of senior volunteers in a case which is the subject of media attention. I ask that members take that into consideration when asking questions so as not to compromise the investigation. I also note that the entirety of the matter is being reviewed by an appointee of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Zappone.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome Dr. John Lawlor, chief executive officer of Scouting Ireland, Mr. Ian Elliot, independent safeguarding consultant, Mr. Martin Burbridge, honorary vice president of Scouting Ireland and team lead on this crisis management issue, and Mr. Kieran McCann, board member and provincial commissioner for the northern province. They are very welcome and I thank them for their attendance.

Before we commence, in accordance with procedure I am required to draw attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if a witness is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in regard to a particular matter and continues to do so, the witness is entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of his or her evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind members to switch off their mobile phones or turn it to flight mode as phones left on silent will interfere with the sound system and make it difficult for the parliamentary reporters to report the meeting and it can adversely affect broadcasting.

I thank Scouting Ireland for the provision of its opening statement which I now invite Mr. Burbridge to deliver. I will not be too strict on time. I have read the statement and estimate it will take approximately ten minutes to deliver.

Mr. Martin Burbridge

Having been part of the leadership team which successfully created Scouting Ireland in 2003, when it was formed from two older organisations, I became the first chief scout of the new organisation. I am currently the team leader of the governance change project, which encompasses the challenges being faced by Scouting Ireland at present. I am accompanied by Dr. John Lawlor, who is the chief executive officer of Scouting Ireland and has a background in scouting; Mr. Kieran McCann, who is a scout leader in the Ardoyne area of Belfast and a member of the board of Scouting Ireland; and Mr. Ian Elliott, who is an independent safeguarding consultant. Mr. Elliott is working with us to guide us through safeguarding changes.

Scouting Ireland wishes to thank the joint committee for its interest in and concern for the difficulties we are currently experiencing. It was always the intention and stated commitment of the organisation to come before the committee. As members will be aware, our preference was to do so after the completion of the investigator's report. We are here today to address the committee's concerns as openly as possible within the constraints placed on us by the current investigation. Unfortunately, the interim chair of Scouting Ireland, Ms Annette Byrne, is abroad and unavailable today due to a long-standing leave commitment. Nevertheless, we are confident that our team has sufficient knowledge and expertise to provide the committee with the necessary information.

As the committee is aware, we met the Minister, Deputy Zappone, and her officials on 19 April last. Our lengthy, constructive and detailed discussion covered all the areas of concern. We have since provided further information on cases of particular concern that were raised by third parties with the Minister. We continue to engage regularly with the Department on these matters. We are pleased the Minister has advised the Dáil that in light of our conversation, she believes Scouting Ireland to be honest in its ambition and intention to make the reforms that are necessary. Members will know that the Minister has appointed a former Senator, Ms Jillian van Turnhout, to provide her with a view on Scouting Ireland's governance. Scouting Ireland welcomes this appointment and looks forward to working with Ms van Turnhout to provide the necessary reassurance to the Minister concerning the adequacy of the governance of our organisation and the project that is in train to improve our governance structures radically.

The withholding of funds has had an immediate and serious impact on the finances of Scouting Ireland. A Government grant under the youth service grant scheme represents approximately one third of our funding. This is primarily spent on funding our national office and professional staff salaries. Our financial situation is now grave, with a requirement to place staff on protective notice in June. Our reserves are limited. The stop on funding has had significant indirect effects. We are experiencing a loss of key staff because of the uncertainty of their positions. Our board has taken steps to change our reserves policy, restrict our spending and husband our resources to maintain our operations for as long as possible. We have experienced a negative reaction from creditors and suppliers. This is affecting our day-to-day operations and, worryingly, our ability to put in place the necessary arrangements and facilities for our planned jamboree for 3,000 young people in July. It is also affecting the planned recruitment of additional professional safeguarding staff. The establishment of a pathway to the restoration of our funding is a vital requirement for us.

Scouting Ireland was established in 2003 as an unincorporated entity. Scouting Ireland Services was established as a company limited by guarantee at a later stage. The management and oversight of these two entities are enmeshed in a single board called the national management committee, which consists of elected volunteers. At present, the volunteer national management committee exercises executive control in Scouting Ireland and directs the chief executive officer. A governance reform project that is in its fourth year is working to change this structure to separate the oversight and executive functions and establish clear lines of accountability and responsibility. This project, which has been accelerated so that it will reach its conclusion in October 2018, will facilitate full compliance with the code of governance for the community and voluntary sector.

In July 2017, Scouting Ireland on its own initiative commissioned Mr. Ian Elliott, who is an internationally respected expert in safeguarding, to review our safeguarding policies, procedures and practices to ensure we were conforming with best practice and were compliant with the Children First Act 2015 ahead of its implementation in 2018. The chief executive officer asked Mr. Elliott to conduct a critical case review into a specific case. The interim report produced by Mr. Elliott in October 2017 was presented to the board of Scouting Ireland. The recommendations made by Mr. Elliott, including the stepping down of the child protection management team, which was a standing committee of the board, and the transfer of responsibility for safeguarding to the chief executive officer, were accepted in full. It was decided that Mr. Elliott should provide professional supervision of case management in safeguarding until new structures and additional professional staff could be put in place. That arrangement is continuing.

Mr. Elliott completed his second report in November 2017 and appended the requested critical case review. This was presented to the board of Scouting Ireland in January 2018. The critical case review was updated in February 2018. The board resolved on foot of the critical case review to commission an independent investigation into whether named individuals acted appropriately with regard to a complaint. It further resolved that the board would consider disciplinary actions based on the findings of that investigation. Four senior volunteers who are directors of Scouting Ireland are the respondents in the investigation. A barrister has been engaged to carry out this investigation, which is independent and at arm's length from Scouting Ireland. It is anticipated it will conclude by the end of this month. The report will be provided to our board for its consideration and action as appropriate. We are concerned that this investigation should not be compromised by any external commentary or interference and we will avoid any comment on it while it proceeds.

The legacy safeguarding structure that was stood down in October 2017 on the recommendation of Mr. Elliott relied on a board sub-committee called the child protection management team with a volunteer chair and membership of senior volunteers, and with the child protection officer and chief executive officer attending. Mr. Elliott identified serious weaknesses in this structure and particularly pointed to the vulnerability of volunteers to be lobbied in cases. Mr. Elliott has proposed a new structure with an entirely professional management and expert oversight. This will include a safeguarding co-ordinator, in-house case officers and external sessional case officers who will be engaged on a case-by-case basis. A regional spread of expertise and overarching professional expert oversight will also be made available.

Scouting Ireland has 34 full-time staff supporting and serving 13,000 adult volunteers, who provide Scouting Ireland's programme to 40,000 young people in over 500 communities across the island of Ireland. Our staff to volunteer ratio is by far the leanest in this sector. Our human resources strategy, which was prepared recently, has identified a gap of ten full-time equivalent staff to meet our current requirements. This is before the requirement to recruit additional safeguarding staff. Scouting Ireland does not have the financial resources to close this human resources gap.

Scouting Ireland is in possession of historic case files covering safeguarding and child protection cases reaching back to the 1950s. These pre-2003 files were passed on to Scouting Ireland from the two old scouting organisations after they resolved to form Scouting Ireland in 2003. These files are securely stored by Scouting Ireland and are made available to statutory agencies as required. Access to these files has been provided on occasion to assist investigations by An Garda Síochána and Tusla. They have provided an important source of information in those inquiries. In 2012, Scouting Ireland conducted a review of these files with the specific objective of determining if any person removed from the old organisations for child protection reasons had gained access to Scouting Ireland. We encountered one such case, which was immediately dealt with by removing this person from the organisation. No further such instances were uncovered in the review. As part of meeting the recommendations set out in Mr. Elliott's report, a further indepth assessment of these files is planned and will be made under Mr. Elliott's supervision. Since 2012, Scouting Ireland has carefully maintained safeguarding and child protection files. We have worked to improve their quality, guided by the report and oversight provided by Mr. Elliott.

I thank Mr. Burbridge.

Before I open the floor to my two colleagues who have indicated - if others wish to contribute, please let me know - I wish to ask a number of pertinent questions to elicit further information on what I hope will be matters that are not before the investigation. I thank Mr. Elliot for coming before the committee. I appreciate his independence of this process. There appears to have been three versions of his report thus far. Is that information accurate?

Mr. Ian Elliott

Let me explain. First, I produced an interim report which was looking at the situation which existed in Scouting Ireland as a whole in respect of safeguarding. I produced a second report which again was looking at the situation in Scouting Ireland as a whole but also making specific recommendations with regard to what structural changed needed to happen and what developments needed to happen in policies and procedures.

I was asked to provide a critical case review into a specific case.

Is this the historic case of the person who had-----

Mr. Ian Elliott

Yes. I did that. I was asked to do that on 18 October and I produced it towards the end of November. I submitted that report but I later had to amend it as a result of developments that took place. That is what has happened from my side in respect of providing confidential reports for Scouting Ireland.

Did the change happen after matters came to light? Was that in respect of the individual who was removed from the organisation because the information came to light through the historic files or other matters?

Mr. Ian Elliott

There were other matters. I cannot go into that.

I appreciate that. Obviously Mr. Elliott is not in a position to illustrate what changes were made to the report. Are there any elements of the report that Mr. Elliott can go into in terms of the governance structure recommendations that he made?

Mr. Ian Elliott

There are overlaps with regard to the approach to safeguarding that was evident in the organisation as a whole. I can comment on that because that is not specific to the critical case review. On one side I was looking at specific policies and procedures that were either present or not present but I was also concerned about the culture. I argued to have a change in the culture of the organisation in safeguarding and an appreciation of the fact that this was something which was central to what Scouting Ireland or any youth organisation that offers services to children and young people in Ireland should have. I was concerned about creating that focus and ensuring that it was carried through.

I understand that Mr. Burbridge is heading up the crisis management team in his capacity as vice president of Scouting Ireland. Is that correct?

Mr. Martin Burbridge

Yes. It is combined with the work that I have been engaged in with regard to the changing of our governance structures which would result in the board being replaced by a different type of board and a different type of operational structure.

Will Mr. Burbridge illustrate what that new structure is proposing?

Mr. Martin Burbridge

Some of the things we were discussing have not yet been approved by our company.

That was my next question.

Mr. Martin Burbridge

I will share with the Chairman and members of the committee where we believe we are heading. As mentioned in our opening statement, the board of Scouting Ireland has oversight responsibility, but also, because of the way we were structured, it has a number of people who have an executive function day to day and week to week. We are changing that. The board will become an oversight board with a senior management team which will be led by a chief executive officer and a number of senior department heads who will be responsible for delivering on the policies and services that are needed for our membership across the island of Ireland. They will be reporting regularly, probably monthly and certainly no less than every two months, to the board of directors.

We want to make certain that the board of directors are more cognisant of the oversight functions. The number on the board at present is 20 members and we are envisaging a smaller board, around 12 or 13 members, but the number is not quite finalised. We are also envisaging that some members of that board will not be elected at the company AGM but will be brought in to ensure that we will have the right expertise, talent, and experience on the board. That is a key element of this. We need to ensure that we have external people as well as internal people with the correct balance of skills between all the different groups. We are working towards that.

Given that Scouting Ireland is democratic in the manner in which it elects its officials, as illustrated recently, what is the likelihood of that proposal being agreed?

Mr. Martin Burbridge

The Chairman may have noted that in our statement we said that this project has been ongoing for four years-----

I understand.

Mr. Martin Burbridge

-----which sometimes seems like rather a long time. Part of the reason for that is that, for the past 24 months, we have been in regular consultation with our membership throughout the island of Ireland. We have gone to the provinces and have met people on four or five occasions. We have explained to them the issues that we are dealing with and produced up to now 12 governance bulletins, the latest one setting out the ideas I have shared with the committee today.

Generally, people are very positive because they recognise that our national structure has to change. It has to change for a number of reasons. One is that we have to have an organisation that is appropriate for the climate in which we live now and for the one in the future. We have to have better accountability and better responsibility by people at all levels, regardless of whether they are paid staff or volunteers taking on a role that requires people to have integrity and to do the right thing. We have to change, as Mr. Ian Elliott would be able to tell the committee. We are in the process of changing many of our policies to support that idea.

I cannot guarantee that our membership will approve it, but certainly from the discussions we have had, we have a large measure of support. I will ask one of our board members who works on the ground more than I do to expand slightly on that.

Mr. Kieran McCann

I am a scout leader in Ardoyne in Belfast. I have worked in that area since I was 18 years and that is for 30 years in that area. I am talking to the leaders in the group. We have 14 adults working in our group, and from talking to the scouters in the province, the majority of scouters are in favour of the changes and are telling us to get on with it and make the changes happen.

Given four years of debate, that is probably not unremarkable. Did Mr. Elliott have an input in terms of his view on the proposals of Scouting Ireland for the management structures?. Did that form part of his work?

Mr. Ian Elliott

No, not overall. I did propose a new structure in respect of safeguarding and I made specific recommendations with regard to how safeguarding should be addressed in the structure, in the sense of what those in authority within the organisation should know about what is happening in safeguarding and what the issues were, especially the resourcing issues that were present in respect of addressing those problems. I did not have, however, input into the overall governance of the organisation.

Given Mr. Elliott's background, what is his view in regard to the overall structure of an organisation dealing with children?

Mr. Ian Elliott

I can express a view on that.

It is very much a step forward and progress. Scouting Ireland needs to move to a situation where it will ensure those who have a responsibility to deal with issues that arise within the organisation have both the competence and knowledge to address them in a way that ensures the safety of everyone and best practice in the specific areas. That concern featured in my recommendations.

On safeguarding practice, I felt most strongly that there was a need for more professional expertise to be available and that it needed to be applied in the situations that arose. It is a very substantial organisation which touches the lives of a large number of young people in both jurisdictions on the island of Ireland. It is very important that these young people be provided with the best possible support. The vast majority have very good developmental experiences and overall I have a very positive view of Scouting Ireland. When issues arise or when there are concerns, it is very important that they be recognised, addressed and that the right help be made available as quickly as possible.

Did Mr. Elliott have an input into the terms of reference in the instructions given to the independent barrister Ms Lynch?

Mr. Ian Elliott

Not directly.

Is Mr. Elliott aware of them?

Mr. Ian Elliott

Yes, I am. I submitted my report which resulted in a robust discussion with the board of Scouting Ireland at two meetings that lasted for about eight hours altogether, following which an independent investigation was set up. I did not have a direct input into the terms of reference for it.

Is Mr. Elliott involved with Scouting Ireland on a daily or weekly basis or does he merely delve in from time to time, as required?

Mr. Ian Elliott

No. I can clarify that it is very much on a daily basis. My home is in Northern Ireland, but I am in Dublin on a weekly basis. I spend at least two days here and have daily contact. We have a discussion whenever issues arise.

The Minister has suspended the allocation of funding.

Mr. Ian Elliott

Yes.

Mr. Elliott works with Scouting Ireland on an almost daily basis but definitely on a weekly basis. To his knowledge, has any of the structures established as a result of this crisis been changed? Does he believe their purpose and the way they are manned are in the best interests of the organisation?

Mr. Ian Elliott

I am concerned with moving the organisation forward. That work is in progress. I have made a number of specific recommendations that are critical to changing the situation in Scouting Ireland.

Does Mr. Elliot mean in the context of safeguarding?

Mr. Ian Elliott

Yes. That is critical.

Mr. Ian Elliott

I am interested primarily in addressing the identified risk and ensuring it is minimised or eliminated in terms of any concern reported. I have referenced the fact that it will require structural change and recruitment, which are issues given the financial position. There is an inhibiting of the progress I had hoped to achieve as a consequence of the report.

I understand.

Mr. Martin Burbridge

The board of Scouting Ireland fully accepted the recommendations made by Mr. Elliott and we are really pleased that he has decided to continue to work with us on an ongoing basis as we need his expertise and support. We are working to implement quite a number of his recommendations, a number of which relate to revisiting and revising policies to strengthen them and develop a proper code of discipline, etc. We have also endeavoured to start the recruitment process. There has been talk about funding being frozen, etc. That inhibits recruitment somewhat because people will worry about applying for a job in an organisation that might not have the funding to pay its current staff in eight weeks' time or thereabouts. Yes, the uncertainty about funding is an inhibiting factor.

Scouting Ireland is determined to do what is necessary to get this matter right. We are not just aiming to have the right standards; we want to exceed the standards set in legislation in both the North and the South. We are determined to provide resources, but in doing so we need the support of the Government, our members, their parents and the wider public. We have a job to do to build on this and are thankful that we have Mr. Elliott's support in doing so. That is the nub of the matter. We got some stuff wrong and did not change and improve as soon as we should have. We did not know better at the time, but we got in an expert and now we know better. We are going to make the changes required.

That is appreciated. I have three final questions that I shall group together in order that my colleagues will have some time to ask questions.

I thank the Chairman for his generosity.

The Deputy is very welcome.

Garda vetting is an issue that has been in the public domain. I do not have a specific question on it and will not refer to an individual. Can the delegates offer confidence to those watching the proceedings and the general public that each and every scout leader and those working with children within Scouting Ireland have been appropriately vetted by the authorities?

Mr. Martin Burbridge

I ask the chief executive of Scouting Ireland, Dr. Lawlor, to clarify the matter.

Dr. John Lawlor

I confirm that every scout leader is subject to vetting. Approximately 200 leaders are vetted each month. That is a large volume and means that we have a very strong relationship with the Garda vetting unit. Vetting is imbedded in the culture of the organisation, but it is only one part of the application and induction process for a person who wants to work with us. For instance, any new scout leader is required to undertake a residential training course which includes between four and five hours of training in child protection and safeguarding issues before he or she can commence or attend a meeting. The process is rigorous. Garda vetting is part and parcel of what we do. It is a cornerstone of safeguarding and very important, but it is only one of the components available. If somebody seeks to join, the checking of references is very important. We need to know what the attitude of local leaders is to somebody joining a group. That gives some idea of the process involved. Garda vetting is limited in that it is only provides information on prosecutions and convictions, which are limiting factors. I cite a sad statistic from the United Kingdom. It is known that offenders could offend up to 100 times before coming to the attention of the police. Garda vetting is a very important cornerstone and part and parcel of what we do, but it is not all of what we do to try to ensure those who work with us are safe to work with children. I can advise that we are moving to a full cycle of revetting all of our leaders. It will be done on a three-year basis and is viewed as best practice in the sector. There are other additional safeguards. We look forward to working with An Garda Síochána and Tusla to tighten the safeguards in place in local groups.

I thank the delegates for entertaining my questions. I call Deputy Anne Rabbitte who will be followed by Deputies Sean Sherlock and Denise Mitchell.

I thank the delegates for their presentations. The Chairman asked so many questions that only a few remain. The delegation was due to appear before the joint committee a few weeks ago when I had some questions prepared.

I shall address questions first to Mr. Elliott. When will the audit of all historical abuse allegations take place? Why has there been a delay in undertaking the audit or review? Who will undertake the audit or review?

This question is for Mr. Burbridge, since it is in its historical files, why does Scouting Ireland not refer these allegations and the files to Tusla? It is charged with looking at historical and retrospective cases. From what I can gather, those files are in a sealed dungeon somewhere and, every now and again, the witnesses prod into them, have a look at them and come back out. I have learned, with historical cases and retrospective cases, that people like that repeat and reoffend. If there is somebody hidden in there that we are not aware of, he or she might not be a member of Scouting or Ireland or be participating, but could pose a risk to other children.

Are the witnesses aware of anyone against whom an allegation has been made previously who continues to work within the organisation or volunteers in Scouting Ireland? Do the witnesses accept that, without completing this audit, there may be young members of the scouts who, today, may be at potential risk of abuse? The delay in undertaking the audit is unacceptable. I find it hard to believe that a conversation has been going on for 24 months. On child protection, I was a member of the scouts as a chairperson and friend of my scouting group in Galway. I was very proud. All my children were scouts. I understand the rigour of what is expected at a grassroots level. I cannot understand why we have a problem at a higher level. Will somebody explain to me where the governance fell down on the basic issue where we have 40,000 children involved? Someone mentioned Garda vetting. To me, Garda vetting is what the general public needs to be reassured of the fundamentals of any form of governance where children are involved. It might not throw up everything but it is a barometer of measurement that we are doing our job right. I have many questions and would appreciate the answers.

Mr. Martin Burbridge

I can set the situation for Mr. Ian Elliot to come in. I agree with the Deputy that we should have done this sooner. We have now instructed, and agreed with Mr. Elliot, that as soon as he comes back from planned leave in the coming weeks, he will commence the work to rigorously go through all of those files. Anything that he finds will be brought forward to the appropriate authorities, whether the Scouting Ireland board, Tusla, An Garda Síochána or whoever. That is what he will do and, depending on what he finds or how long he takes, we hope that will be completed before the autumn.

How many files are locked away in the secret dungeon?

Mr. Martin Burbridge

Mr. Elliot has that number. I agree with the Deputy that we have been slow in doing it but because we have brought in Mr. Elliot to advise us on safeguarding, we now recognise what we need to do and we will do what is necessary to rectify it. It will take a little time but we will do it as quickly as we can, resources permitting. The resources are available for the task.

I would hope so. When Mr. Burbridge talks about having been slow to do this, the amalgamation took place in 2003 and now it is 2018. Some 15 years have passed. I do not want to make light of that. I acknowledge that Mr. Burbridge is doing this work but at the same time, we are dealing with children.

Mr. Martin Burbridge

In 2012, we carried out a review. As we mentioned in the opening statement, one case was found. However, we need somebody with the expertise, if necessary, to do a thorough review. We have made the finds available, on request, to An Garda Síochána and Tusla. We will continue to do so. If anything that comes up that those agencies need to be alerted to, they will be. Mr. Elliot can clarify that.

Mr. Ian Elliott

I thank Deputy Rabbitte for the questions. I understand them and note the frustration that she expresses. As someone who is coming as an independent person, from a safeguarding perspective, I share that frustration. The total number of files that I have been informed of existing which were pre-2003 is in the region of 300. Since 2003, to today, that has been added to by a further 500 to 600. It would be my intention to look at all of those files and to read them to confirm that there is nothing in the content of those files that the organisation is not aware of and has not acted appropriately on. The only way to do that is by sitting down and critically reviewing them, then providing an analysis and commentary to the organisation to make sure that something has not been missed. Like the Deputy, I have a passion about what I do. I have continued to do it for the past 44 years because the safety of young people motivates me. It is frustrating when I meet with a situation where an organisation may have information that it should have acted differently on and has not pushed the buttons. The only way I can be sure that that has not occurred is to sit down, do it and read the files.

I intend to do that myself. It has not started yet because of the volume of work. When I first made contact with Scouting Ireland in July of last year, I did not anticipate that I would still be working for it at this time and that I would still be as involved as I am. It has been a process of revelation and development which I have tried to respond to and tried to guide the organisation through. As mentioned in the opening statement from Mr. Martin Burbridge, the historic files are critical. That is accepted. It is a priority. We will look at that by critically reviewing each one of them and ensuring that any information that should have been passed on to any other agencies that are working for the people or to the statutory child protection agency has been passed on. It is a priority. The leave is for one week. I will go on holiday. I have already been told by my wife that if I bring my laptop with me, she will shoot me, so I will not be doing any work. I will have my phone with me but I will not be doing a great deal of work for that week. When I come back, that is when I will begin.

Can I ask one last question relating to numbers, if the witnesses do not mind? We have the numbers there, from before 2003, and since. What are the numbers from 2012 to date as part of that 500 to 600?

Dr. John Lawlor

I was going to come to the up to date ones. I will take that first, if the Deputy does not mind. It was the last thing she asked. Our safeguarding team would deal with a volume of work like this. These are 2017 statistics. There were 160 advice requests, 62 new cases, 27 referrals to statutory authorities - the Deputy will understand that we have responsibility to report - 41 cases closed, and 21 cases still open. Those cases would range in a spectrum from what is probably an inappropriate term, the less serious, to the most serious. They would all require the opening of a file. Some would involve actions that took place within the context of scouting. Some would be where young people may have made disclosures to a trusted scout leader of something that has happened at home or in school. The Deputy will understand that it happens. That is a file for us and we have a reporting responsibility. I, particularly, as chief executive officer, have a reporting responsibility.

The files are of quite a different nature to the pre-2003 ones and, as we go back to a period before those, with regard to any professional involvement in the management of cases. We have seen the responsibility to retain those files from the old organisation for the purposes of statutory authorities such as An Garda Síochána and Tusla. They make good use of them when they need to but it has been on a case basis. That case the Deputy made about the worry of somebody being in scouting who should have been removed is really important. That was exactly the reason that we moved on this in 2012. I was five minutes behind the desk as chief executive officer six years ago when it was brought to my attention that a scouter had been removed from one of the old organisations in the early 1970s and had gained access to Scouting Ireland. He had been abstained and removed and we had to deal with that. I was faced with the worry at the time that there might have been others.

We brought back veteran staff from the old organisation who understood the files. They went through them with us in a systematic way. We traffic-lighted them as either red, amber or green, with red meaning that we had to act immediately, amber meaning that we had something to do but that it was not immediate and green meaning that everything was okay. Fortunately, we ended up with seven amber lights, but it had the limitation of being staff-led. We had no one with the expertise or insight of someone like Mr. Ian Elliott, but we engaged in that due diligence exercise at the time. We have since retained the files which are openly available to those bodies with statutory responsibility, particularly Tusla and An Garda Síochána. That is the case to this day.

What is the number since 2012?

Dr. John Lawlor

We are talking about roughly 70 files a year, multiplied by the number of years. That is the number of files we have. It is of that order. For completeness, roughly 10% are what I would classify as "fairly serious".

Regarding the 10% that would be classified as "fairly serious", what action was taken prior to Mr. Elliott's involvement?

Dr. John Lawlor

They would have been reported to Tusla and An Garda Síochána. Typically, if there was a scouter involved, he or she would have been abstained.

I have one last question which is related to funding. Development officers play a huge role within Scouting Ireland throughout the country. Many of them have been in contact with me. They are worried about their jobs and wondering what the future holds. Will they be put on protective notice? What is the position in that regard?

Mr. Martin Burbridge

All of our staff, not just the development officers, are in danger of being put on protective notice some time in June unless we can find a way to have some of the funding restored. If we did not have to set aside moneys to pay people their statutory entitlements should they be made redundant, we would have sufficient reserves to continue to operate for a little longer. However, we are conscious that we cannot leave people without the money they have earned and deserve in the event that we find ourselves with insufficient funds to continue to pay them. We are monitoring the position on a weekly basis. The acting chairman of the board of directors, Ms Annette Byrne, who is also the treasurer is working with the financial controller on the issue and the CEO has been meeting staff regularly to apprise them of the position. It is not a nice place to be. In fact, it is dreadful. People like me who are a little removed from it are worried that we will not able to do the necessary development and support work on the ground after June if this eventuality occurs. It is unfortunate.

As this is all about money, what comfort will the organisation lay at the feet of the Minister by the end of May in order that funding will be restored? How will Scouting Ireland assure her that the organisation is taking steps in the right direction? She will be looking for supporting evidence, as will the committee. Where are we in that context?

Mr. Martin Burbridge

As I mentioned in the opening statement, we have answered as many of the concerns raised by the Minister as possible. We genuinely welcome the appointment of Ms Jillian van Turnhout to work with us to reassure her and the Minister on the issue of governance. We have brought forward decision-making on the board of directors from October to June and will effectively replace it with a totally new board. We will make a final decision in October, with a view to having a new board of directors in place by the end of that month. We are working on a number of issues, but we want to make progress on specific issues, including some of those referred to by Mr. Elliott, in order that we can assure the Minister that we are taking all issues seriously and working on many of them concurrently to improve governance. It is going to take a little time, but we certainly need to convince the Minister that we are doing the right things.

Scouting Ireland held a meeting a number of weeks ago at which there was an election of officers. Why did the organisation not postpone that meeting until it had the results of all of the reviews?

Mr. Martin Burbridge

We could not postpone that meeting as it was the AGM of Scouting Ireland and also the AGM of Scouting Ireland Services CLG. In order to comply with the Companies Act, we had to hold the AGM prior to the end of April in order that we could file our returns with the Companies Registration Office. That happens each year. It is now clear that people did not think matters were as urgent as they have turned out to be. I ask Mr. McCann, as a member of the board, if he has any further insight into why that meeting was not deferred.

Mr. Kieran McCann

I can confirm that we did not defer the meeting because of requirements under the Companies Act. There was no other reason other than that we had to comply with the reporting timeline under that legislation.

I am not aware that it is a requirement under companies legislation that an election take place. The directorships could stay the same and there is no legal requirement for them to change. Filing accounts only requires the signature of the financial director. That is simply an observation on my part.

I take that point, but there were a lot of issues arising at the time and perhaps with the benefit of hindsight, going ahead with the meeting could have been viewed as an ill-judged decision.

Mr. Kieran McCann

I thank the Deputy for her question. This is a new experience for us as a board. We have never dealt with anything like it before. We appreciate the concerns and are making the changes required. Hindsight is wonderful in the context of the timing of a meeting. Would we do it again? The answer is I do not think so.

I do not know where to start because I am flabbergasted at some of the evidence that has been presented to us. I want to gain a deeper understanding of the distinction between governance and safeguarding issues. There will be some repetition in the delegates' answers. Mr. Ian Elliott has been appointed to look at a sample of between 500 and 600 cases in which safeguarding issues arise, dating back to 2003. Is that correct?

Mr. Ian Elliott

It is correct to say I will undertake a review of past safeguarding decisions and use the records available to me in doing so. A number will be historical cases, by which I mean pre-2003, but I will also look at and critically assess the records generated from the creation of Scouting Ireland in 2003 to the present day. I will look at everything.

There is a box of files on all of the cases somewhere within the bowels of Scouting Ireland. Is that what the delegates are telling us? We are talking about paper files.

Mr. Ian Elliott

Yes, there are records which are kept securely in fireproof filing cabinets in Larch Hill, the national headquarters of Scouting Ireland.

The Garda, Tusla and all of the relevant agencies-----

Mr. Ian Elliott

Are aware of the situation.

The CEO has been in office since 2012. Has he been involved in any of the safeguarding cases since his appointment?

Dr. John Lawlor

Yes, I was involved in discussions on safeguarding, particularly in the cases that were the most serious and required something to go to board via the child protection management team.

That is not what I am asking about. My question is specific. Has the CEO been involved directly between both parties - the complainant and the person against whom the complaint has been made?

Dr. John Lawlor

No, I would generally not be directly involved in a case. There were one or two over the years in which I was, but it would be unusual.

Therefore, Dr. Lawlor has been directly involved in specific cases as CEO.

Dr. John Lawlor

Yes, I have been in specific cases.

In normal circumstances is it appropriate for the CEO to be directly involved in safeguarding cases?

Mr. Ian Elliott

Is the Deputy addressing that question to me?

Mr. Ian Elliott

I argue for appropriate oversight. It is important that the CEO have oversight of safeguarding practice and advise, or report to, the board of directors on the safeguarding workload experienced by the organisation in order that it has an understanding of what the reality is on the issues being identified, reported and passed on and that it become aware of them. That is important because it needs to have that knowledge to ensure Scouting Ireland is appropriately resourced to deal with whatever the workload is. The only way it can do that - I have argued for this and it has been approved - is to have safeguarding as a standing item on the agenda for every board meeting that takes place. The CEO will be required to speak on that item and provide certain critical information on the workload on a meeting by meeting basis.

I am looking for help to understand this issue. It is probably awkward to ask Mr. Elliot the question when the CEO is sitting beside him, but the CEO has brought in Mr. Elliot to do a job and I will proceed on that basis. There are a number of sample cases on file during the tenure of the CEO and Mr. Elliot is going through an internal process, albeit with an external consultant. I have dealt with him in the past on the Cloyne report. Historically, we have had much engagement on the national board for safeguarding children in the Catholic Church. Had it not been for him, the Cloyne report would never have seen the light of day. We did a great deal of work on it and I appreciate the work he has done in safeguarding children. However, I have a difficulty in understanding why, for instance, if an investigation is ongoing into a sample number of files during the CEO's tenure, the board and the CEO have not stepped aside from the process and the investigation has not become a fully external process on the basis that there is considerable taxpayer funding at play and there is a massive disparity between the ordinary experiences of the leader of a scout troop and the children and those who operate in the upper echelons of the organisation. This speaks to the issue of governance to which I will come shortly. Should the entire board and leadership step aside while the process is ongoing and should somebody else step in to act as an honest broker in order that everybody can have confidence in the process?

Mr. Ian Elliott

In a sense, that is the role I am being asked to play. It is not a completely straightforward process in that Scouting Ireland is an all-Ireland body; therefore, there are two jurisdictions, not one, at play. That needs to be taken into consideration in what we are dealing with because not all of the material will be contained within this jurisdiction. It is massively important that I work hand in hand with the statutory child protection agencies, including the PSNI, the Garda, Tusla and the gateway teams, and that we have an open flow of communication. We keep them informed and they keep us informed. We work together and I have always viewed it as a partnership. The reason this work is a priority is I do not know what is in the pile, but it needs to be critically reviewed, analysed and commented on. Action has to be taken quickly, if needed, because it has been delayed. However, I have explained the timing for getting that task done and it will proceed as quickly as possible once I return from my holidays.

That is the safeguarding element, about which there are further questions. However, the Minister suddenly announced the appointment of Ms Jillian van Turnhout, a former Oireachtas Member. I still do not have a proper understanding of what her role will be. She is the Minister's appointee, but what will she do exactly? What is Mr. Elliot's interpretation of her role in this process?

Mr. Ian Elliott

I cannot offer a comment on it.

Mr. Martin Burbridge

I will try to answer that question. As soon as I heard that Ms van Turnhout had been appointed, I made contact with her to have a discussion with her and see what she needed to understand and about what she needed to be reassured. I hope I will hear from her tomorrow or Friday, with a view to having that discussion. She had to be briefed more fully earlier this week by the departmental officials on what her terms of reference would be. Other than that-----

Is it Mr. Burbridge's understanding Ms van Turnhout does not yet have a sense of what her role will be? Did she articulate that to him?

Mr. Martin Burbridge

She has a sense of what her role is, but she needs to be fully briefed by departmental officials on what precisely the Minister has in mind for her.

This is an issue because, as a committee, we are still in the dark. Last week in the Dáil I asked a question about Scouting Ireland, but I am still none the wiser about what Ms van Turnhout's role will be.

The terms of reference-----

I do not need them. I will continue with my questioning.

The Chair is interrupting the Deputy for the purpose of illustrating that the terms of reference are in the public domain.

I appreciate that, but it would be good to have Scouting Ireland's perspective. As yet, there has been no articulation of or contact on the terms of reference and how the investigation, whatever it will entail, will proceed. We are, therefore, still a little in the dark in that sense.

I refer again to the issue of governance. Reference was made to a new board of directors. Dr. Lawlor is subjecting himself to an internal process to appoint a new board of directors to reflect the new realities in which he finds himself. That is not an appropriate way in which to proceed and he should subject the board's governance procedures to an external review, whether it is the van Turnhout review or another.

I refer to the public, individual scout leaders, scouts, cubs and volunteers, in particular.

How are they going to be confident, if they are not fully confident at present, that the new board of directors has clean hands and will result in a new culture with stronger and more robust governance procedures? I have questions about whether there have been documented complaints made by volunteers - this is adult scout leaders - against members of the board, right up to CEO level, or other staff, or whether there have been allegations of bullying, for instance. Have reports been commissioned by Scouting Ireland to examine complaints and the mechanisms by which it can resolve those complaints in a mediated fashion? Have the reports been published and have they been provided, for instance, to all parties involved? Those are just some of the questions that are still on our minds, which have not been presented to us here as representatives of taxpayers' interests in relation to the submissions today. We do not know if there are any legal cases open against the organisation by volunteers for alleged harassment, for instance. If we are talking about change management and if it is a change management structure from within and the board is hoping to bring all of these people with it, I suggest that it does not necessarily have the confidence of a lot of people in the organisation on the ground. I am a layman in this regard but my perception is that what the board is trying to do is to give effect to change internally and trying to manage it internally using the same people and the same resources.

I will intervene at this point and instruct the witnesses not to answer the question on any pending cases before the courts. It would not be appropriate to answer that.

Deputy Sean Sherlock To be clear, what I asked was whether there are legal cases open against the organisation by volunteers who allege harassment and who are seeking damages, for instance.

I must say to Deputy Sherlock-----

The witnesses do not have to answer the question if they do not want to.

I do not think it would be appropriate for the witness to answer that question.

In the interests of transparency, it is in everybody's interest that the witnesses are as forthcoming as possible with this committee because the answers and the truth will out ultimately on these processes anyway.

My instruction to the witnesses stands. There are other questions they can answer.

Mr. Martin Burbridge

Part of the reason the work that we have been doing on governance, in terms of reviewing it and how we might change, has taken as long is that we have been working with people outside of Scouting Ireland in order to do it. We are open. I mentioned earlier that we will be proposing that there should be some places on the board of directors for people who are not directly appointed by the members of Scouting Ireland. That is a huge change.

Who is managing that process?

Mr. Martin Burbridge

I am at the moment, along with a team of people.

Mr. Burbridge should forgive my ignorance, but he is honorary vice president of Scouting Ireland and the team lead on this crisis and he is also managing the change management.

Mr. Martin Burbridge

What happened was that I was managing the change management, if one likes, and when these issues came up it was felt that I was an appropriate person to try to encompass this to make sure that we did not leave any gaps and that we did begin to deal effectively with a lot of the issues Deputy Sherlock has raised. I have a lot of experience in dealing with these things. For many years I was involved in IDA Ireland. I was secretary to the board and I was responsible for governance there. I have been on various committees at world scout level, at European scout regional level and in other business areas so I do have a reasonable amount of experience in dealing with all of these issues.

I share Deputy Sherlock's concerns in the sense that we do need to make sure that we bring our membership with us but we also need to have an element of external review. If that amounts to there being an appointee by the Minister or some other person, we will welcome it. We need that difference and external view being brought into our board to make sure that it is more open to things and is not internalising all the time. That is one of the problems we have had. I know that because for six years I led the board of Scouting Ireland, but it was long before some of these issues emerged. We were a new organisation finding our way in different times. There are things we need to do. We have looked at how the best global not-for-profit organisations work. We have worked with our colleagues in various countries around the globe, in Australia and New Zealand among others. I could name a range of countries. We have done a lot of work and that is why it has taken us so long. We have consulted with our membership and I believe we can bring them with us.

As regards the other specific questions Deputy Sherlock asked, I am not in a position to answer them personally as I have not been a board member and I do not have access to that information.

Deputy Sherlock's time is nearly up.

I am only getting warmed up.

Not in this round.

I appreciate that answer because at least it gives me some knowledge that this is subject to some sort of external tyre-kicking, if one wants to call it that. What the volunteers need is some signalling from the upper echelons that change management is going on because they are floored by what is going on at present. They were not too happy at the fact that Scouting Ireland did not come before the committee sooner because it created a very bad perception. That said, I appreciate the fact that Scouting Ireland is here today. I did ask whether there are internal reports on complaints. Are there internal complaints about bullying and harassment? I think that is a fair question. It can be answered. I do not think there is a legal impediment to it being answered. First I am trying to establish whether there are complaints of bullying within the organisation or complaints by volunteers or individual scout leaders and, second, that a process is under way to deal with them in a robust fashion.

Mr. Martin Burbridge

I will defer to the CEO.

Dr. John Lawlor

Yes, I can confirm that Scouting Ireland has a complaints policy and procedures. It has a very formal way of registering complaints and when they come in they are followed up. The general process in terms of complaint is to try to resolve them at the lowest level possible through mediation. Those processes are always enacted in cases of complaint.

Where one has the number of people involved on the scale we have in Scouting Ireland one will inevitably have cases arising. In response to a question Deputy Sherlock asked earlier, there are files. The organisation to worry about is one that says it has no files. Scouting Ireland maintains a very strong record on complaints and safeguarding which we follow up. In the case of complaints of bullying and harassment, whether it involves adult on adult, volunteer on volunteer or volunteer on staff, those matters are taken very seriously. They are logged and followed up. Where we have to engage external support we engage external support.

I am trying to understand the process.

I will call Deputy Mitchell after this question.

Could I ask for a little bit of indulgence, just for two minutes?

I have given Deputy Sherlock 20 minutes.

Deputy Mitchell has nodded in affirmation of my request.

The Chair has given Deputy Sherlock 20 minutes. I will move to Deputy Mitchell after this question.

I appreciate that. The Chairman took a fair amount of time himself. I will wrap it up, so to speak. Are there live cases of bullying and harassment? Does Dr. Lawlor as CEO deal directly with those cases or is there a process under way where a staff member deals with the case?

Dr. John Lawlor

Complaints that come in to the national office are logged. Very often these matters are dealt with at volunteer level. It depends on the case.

Has Dr. Lawlor dealt with cases?

Dr. John Lawlor

No, not directly.

I thank Deputy Sherlock and call Deputy Mitchell.

I have a few brief questions if you can bear with me for a moment, Chairman. Could Dr. Lawlor explain the process undertaken by Scouting Ireland when it is advised by the Garda to vet somebody? How long does the vetting process take?

Dr. John Lawlor

In general, as I explained, our vetting process kicks in immediately when somebody applies to be a volunteer with us. A person cannot commence with us until his or her vetting is through. We do about 200 applications per month.

So there was no case of anybody that was still not vetted.

Dr. John Lawlor

No, we are rigorous. We follow through all the time. Bearing in mind the volume of throughput we have, one will get strays that one has to follow up, but we do that. It would be seen as a very serious matter if somebody was operating and he or she was not vetted.

Dr. Lawlor previously told the committee in respect of cases where a complaint was made that the person who made the complaint was supported and that he or she would be provided with counselling while the complaint was being investigated. Will he outline to the committee what supports are in place in Scouting Ireland for someone who makes a complaint and for the person who is the subject of the complaint?

Dr. John Lawlor

It is a very important point. The point the Deputy makes is right. Often those at either ends of a complaint are subject to enormous personal and emotional stress. We employ a professional counselling service which we make available to both sides in these cases. That is paid for by the organisation. We inform the parties concerned that such counselling is available to them.

Have people taken Scouting Ireland up on the offer?

Dr. John Lawlor

It is strongly availed of. Absolutely. I would also point out that our staff who are involved in dealing with these matters, which are personally difficult matters, are provided with counselling as well. It has a human impact effect.

Mr. Elliot said in his opening statement that he identified serious weaknesses in the structure, and pointed particularly to the vulnerability of volunteers to lobbying. Were there cases of lobbying within the organisation? If so, was the onus on the team to report it to the management board? If so, what action was taken?

The Deputy might be straying into crossing the line.

Are we straying into the unknown?

Yes, just in terms of that specific word the Deputy used. It is obviously pertinent to the current investigation.

I will withdraw that.

I am sorry, Deputy.

I do not mean to limit the Deputy's contribution.

If I do so again, I ask the Chairman to let me know.

I will finish with this question. We were talking about the historic cases. Can Scouting Ireland members request information that Scouting Ireland is holding on them?

Mr. Ian Elliott

On them?

If I am a member, can I request information?

Mr. Ian Elliott

In relation to the records that are held by Scouting Ireland, the information that is held on an individual will be available to that individual under data protection legislation. They will only have a right to see the information that relates directly to them. They do not have a right to see any third party's information or have any third parties identified to them. It would be determined by the data protection legislation which operates in this jurisdiction and similar legislation which exists in Northern Ireland.

On that note, have there been many cases of people requesting information and have they access to the information?

That is probably appropriate for Dr. Lawlor.

Dr. John Lawlor

Could Deputy Mitchell help me once again with the question?

Mr. Ian Elliott

Has there been a request to see the files?

What is the process for somebody to obtain the information from Scouting Ireland?

Mr. Ian Elliott

I am happy to answer that question. The first point I want to make is that in trying to establish good safeguarding practice, one encourages the individuals who are the subject of files to have access to the files because they have the opportunity to correct anything which is incorrect. If there are any factual inaccuracies there, they have an opportunity to change them. We would encourage that as a process.

During the ten months that I have been involved with Scouting Ireland, I am not aware of anyone who has come forward to say that he or she wants to have access to the documentation that exists in the organisation relating to himself or herself.

Mr. Elliott is not aware of it.

Mr. Ian Elliott

I am not aware of anyone who has done that.

Is there a fee for anyone to request?

Mr. Ian Elliott

I do not believe there is a fee. There is a process of redaction which has to take place in relation to the file which involves a rigorous checking to make sure that we protect the rights of other individuals who are identified within that file and that it is in an appropriate state to be given to the subject, but there is no fee that I am aware of that exists within Scouting Ireland in relation to that process.

To Mr. Elliott's knowledge, has nobody been refused access to his or her information?

Mr. Ian Elliott

To the best of my knowledge, nobody has made the request and nobody has been refused.

Dr. John Lawlor

Mr. Elliott has been working closely with us since July of last year and I have no knowledge of any request that has been refused in my six years.

Mr. Ian Elliott

The point I wanted to make was that in improving safeguarding practice within Scouting Ireland, one of the issues that I wanted to address was to improve the record-keeping to make sure that it adhered to rigorous professional standards in terms of what was recorded, how it was recorded, how the information was organised and also the availability of the information. That is a matter we are looking at and we have addressed. Changes have been made to the way in which the information has been collected by the organisation and organised.

I thank the witnesses for joining us in the committee. On a side note, did Scouting Ireland ever pursue the policy of each individual den, group or troop - I might not have the language - being an individual entity rather than being part of Scouting Ireland itself?

Mr. Martin Burbridge

This may be about the way we are looking at how we might comply with the charity regulatory authority in the South.

Mr. Martin Burbridge

In Northern Ireland, we have worked with the Charity Commission for Northern Ireland, CCNI, and each group is registered in Northern Ireland as a separate entity with CCNI. We are working towards that in the Republic of Ireland. We have not yet been called forward by the Charities Regulatory Authority, CRA, to do that on a group-by-group basis. Scouting Ireland itself is registered with the CRA in the South. We have chosen that based on an extensive review that was carried out and a report that was delivered to us by a very eminent company of legal advisers. I am not sure whether I can name names but I will not name the name. We have a report which sets out why we should go that route. The reason is that we want our scout groups at local level to be independent to make their own decisions on how they can be responsible for and run their own affairs and for us to provide services, such as programmes, that they can avail of and participate in, etc. It is important that it is not one size fits all. As for what is good for a community in Donegal or in Belfast or in the South of Ireland, there are regional and local differences that we must acknowledge and we encourage them to do that.

We are providing training for the offices of those groups to make sure that they can manage their affairs correctly. We are providing support for them through this registration process with the CRA. We are, however, still waiting to deal with the CRA in some depth on how that might happen because, needless to say, with more than 400 groups in the South of Ireland, there is quite a big administrative issue involved. We are, however, working with the CRA to try to achieve that.

Would there be any implications from this ongoing investigation for that decision? Could there be an increase in responsibility for local groups? Has there been a reaction from local scouting groups to these issues and, indeed, that move to align with the North in how Scouting Ireland recognises local groups?

Mr. Martin Burbridge

I will ask my colleague to comment on the North in a moment. We are aware that there are a number of groups where people are concerned about being confronted with legislation under the Charities Acts and their responsibilities as trustees.

We have provided clarification for them on all of that. We will provide training and mentoring. There are issues we have to deal with but we are endeavouring to do that.

As it happens the North of Ireland is somewhat ahead of us because all the scout groups have registered for the Charity Commission of Northern Ireland, CCNI. I am sure Mr. McCann can give some insight to that.

Mr. Kieran McCann

The groups in Northern Ireland have set up their own trustee boards. The trustees are registered with CCNI. Those trustee boards provide oversight for the group and allow the scouters to get on with activities, planning and working with the kids.

Dr. John Lawlor

That is a really good question. It is important that, while we maintain the independence of our groups, as Mr. Burbridge has described, there are major requirements for our groups in compliance. We are talking largely about safeguarding today but there are others, such as health and safety and charities legislation. It is incumbent on the national organisation to find a device to take that burden as much as possible from the local group so that it does not fall on the local leaders and they can get on with running the programme for young people at local level. That will be governed by a charter with Scouting Ireland that will require compliance with our constitutional rules and in that way the national organisation can provide the oversight in these critical areas of compliance while at the same time allowing the maximum independence of our groups. Is that fair to say, Mr. Burbridge?

Mr. Martin Burbridge

Yes.

Can the witnesses quickly identify the impact withholding or withdrawing the funds will have on Scouting Ireland in the short and long term?

This may be a question for the Minister but is the role of Jillian van Turnhout a voluntary position and, if not, is there a cost to the Exchequer or would the cost be taken on by Scouting Ireland?

Mr. Martin Burbridge

I am afraid I have no idea what arrangements are being made with Ms van Turnhout but we will co-operate with whoever the Minister, or indeed any other committee, wants to work with us because we need to get this right.

When it comes to making a decision on cases is the board briefed on each individual case or is the decision made by child protection elements within Scouting Ireland with the board simply signing off on those recommendations?

Dr. John Lawlor

I might rely on Mr. Elliot to tell us about the improved position. I can say what we did until he arrived.

Please do, if possible.

Dr. John Lawlor

We would bring the case and detail to the child protection management which makes a recommendation to the board because there are certain reserved powers of the board such as suspension or removal of membership. That would have to go to the board. We are restricted in what we can tell the board about a case to maintain some level of confidentiality, particularly a board of 20 people and one which does not have the expertise to understand what it is told. Those are the kinds of issue that Mr. Elliott's report has addressed. He might comment on that.

Mr. Ian Elliott

I am responsible for providing safeguarding oversight to Scouting Ireland so if issues arise and they are responded to I will receive the response and will be instrumental in providing that. With regard to the management of the case the chief executive officer, CEO, will make a decision in the first instance because the CEO ultimately has responsibility and will then advise the board on the action taken. I make recommendations to the CEO but do not directly make the decision. My remarks will be prefaced by the statement that if the matter being considered reaches the threshold of the statutory agencies it goes immediately to the statutory agencies, regardless of anything that happens from a Scouting Ireland point of view.

I have been a member of Scouting Ireland for almost 20 years. The last engagement we had in this room was in a more positive context. We are dealing with more weighty and serious issues on this occasion. Despite my membership I have a wider responsibility to the public and my constituents in respect of the use of public funding and child safeguarding. My experience has always and ever been very positive. I last did child protection training 12 months ago in Mount Melleray and I have always found the standards very good. There is a lot of discussion among the public but also among grassroots members of Scouting Ireland about recent discussions and media commentary.

Am I right in saying that Mr. Elliott's report, which is referred to in the media commentary but has not been published, has not yet reached the Minister?

Mr. Ian Elliott

None of the reports I have provided has been published by Scouting Ireland. Two of the reports that I have provided to Scouting Ireland have been accessed by the media, or leaked to the media but that is not as a result of any decision made by Scouting Ireland or by me.

The Minister has been provided with two of the three reports and the third will be provided whenever matters have been concluded in respect of the inquiry. The two I provided examine the overall situation of safeguarding policy and practice within Scouting Ireland, an interim report in the first instance and a final report which also suggested a revised structure for how safeguarding should develop that the organisation should adopt. Those have been provided to the Minister.

Could Mr. Elliott make a general comment on the standards of child protection and safeguarding in Scouting Ireland?

Mr. Ian Elliott

There are many very good, committed, hardworking volunteers who do a really wonderful job and have a very sincere interest in ensuring the wellbeing of the young people they are working with. They could be, and are being, provided with a better structure to support their work. By that I mean provision of professional advice and guidance from individuals experienced in the area, making that more readily available to them so that if they have a concern they can access that information very quickly and easily. We are working on that.

We also need more defined policies within the organisation to cover specific issues that arise so that people know the organisation's expectations of them and how they should respond to a particular situation. In rough general terms those are the sorts of situation we are working on.

Has Mr. Elliott been satisfied with the support and assistance he has received from-----

Mr. Ian Elliott

I am never satisfied. I have reached the position in life that when it comes to safeguarding practice nothing happens quickly enough for me. I want it all to happen yesterday and if not yesterday then today.

The gentlemen accompanying me know I am very impatient. I am very patient with them and very impatient with others as to why we have not moved this on. We need to move this on more quickly. That is where I am coming from. I give people a hard time because I am passionate about what I do and it all has to happen as soon as possible. One is talking about the safety and well-being of a large number of young people. That is critical. There is no more important issue for any youth organisation than that and that has to be remembered at all times. The safety and well-being of the young people one is dealing with comes first and that is what we have to concentrate on. That is where I am coming from.

That is an admirable attitude.

Turning to the representatives of Scouting Ireland, there has been a decision to withhold the drawing down of funding. My understanding is there is enough funding to keep the Scouting Ireland organisation running at its current level until about June. Is that correct?

Mr. Martin Burbridge

Unless we succeed in convincing the Minister and her officials that we should have funding restored, we will have to give protective notice to our staff in June. In the meantime we are husbanding our resources as best we can and are trying to make them last as long as we can. We are very conscious that we have responsibilities to our staff in the unfortunate event that we may have to put them on protective notice. As mentioned earlier, the CEO is keeping the staff briefed on a regular basis about the situation.

Very good. There are two questions-----

Would the Deputy find it helpful if I read a small section of the Minister's response on the very issue he has just raised which he might not have seen because it has just been put on the record? It states that it is not the Minister's intention that Scouting Ireland should become insolvent. It states that Ms Jillian van Turnhout's task is scheduled to be completed when the necessary report to the Minister is presented in the week commencing 10 June. Ms van Turnhout's work on this should be completed by 10 June. It states also that any decision regarding restoration of funding will depend on the necessary assurances being provided to the Minister. By that, I assume she means through Ms van Turnhout's report. That is for the Deputy's own information because I know he was not here when this was issued.

That is useful because I did not have that note. From the point of view of Scouting Ireland, is that achievable? Is it satisfied that the standard that is expected of Scouting Ireland for the restoration of funding is possible?

Mr. Martin Burbridge

Yes, we believe it is. We have taken immediate steps to deal with the safeguarding issues. We know all the things we need to do because Mr. Elliot has made his recommendations and he is continuing to work with us.

On the governance issues, we believe the proposals we are putting together should satisfy not just the Minister but any other experts in dealing with governance and the way in which we have to reformulate our national structure. That information is pretty much to hand but, as it happens, this weekend we will be working to finalise and develop the proposals for consideration by our members on 30 June. We have no difficulty in being able to provide as much information as possible to the Minister's appointee in order to deal with this fairly quickly.

I have made myself available as the person who is leading the change management situation in Scouting Ireland. Given that I am retired, I have the time to be able to converse and meet with Ms van Turnhout as often as required in order to go through the information. I am absolutely familiar with it because I have been working on it for about three years. We should be able to satisfy the Minister's needs. It will not have been implemented but it will be what we had intended to implement, although six to eight months earlier than we had originally envisaged. We intend to have it in place by 6 October of this year.

I am glad to hear that. I am very conscious of the fact that the strategy is absolutely right. The first priority needs to be the safeguarding of children. I am also conscious of the fact that if the threshold was not to be reached, it would be the children of the organisation who would be affected. If staff are put on protective notice, events will not happen and competitions will not be run. I am very glad to hear that but it is vitally important to address this.

I cannot make a statement as to the accuracy of the reports that are in the public domain. If they are true, there are worrying issues there, about which there is no doubt. I will await the report in that context.

There is no doubt in my mind of the good work that Scouting Ireland does in every part of the country. I would be very anxious to see that the funding is in place and, indeed, beyond that, increased to ensure that Scouting Ireland can deliver a strong programme and continue to do the good work that it does.

Mr. Martin Burbridge

Thank you, Deputy.

Does anybody wish to respond?

Mr. Kieran McCann

My function is as a provincial commissioner. I have 5,000 people in my area and 1,200 volunteers. Only last weekend, and I thank members for questions on the effects of the loss of funding, we had hundreds of volunteers right across the province providing a weekend's activity for thousands of young people. If the staff supports are removed completely from the organisation, such as supports to help with charity regulation, governance training and safeguarding, these responsibilities are going to be placed on volunteers. This would have a serious effect on the ability of volunteers to provide these activities for young people.

Does Deputy Ó Laoghaire wish to come back in?

Could we have a response from the chief executive?

Dr. John Lawlor

It is a huge worry for us; there is no gainsaying that. The stop to our funding is a huge worry for us. I have had the job of talking to our staff. I know the Deputy would have known some of them and would have met them through his scouting life. They are a wonderful bunch of people, as fine as I have had the privilege to work with in my professional life. Many of them are volunteers as well as having professional jobs. The livelihoods and incomes of others are on the line. While I have a mind to the impact on the organisation and its activities, which the Deputy pointed out, and this is very important, there are also 34 people whose livelihoods are in jeopardy through no fault of their own and I feel that very deeply as their chief executive.

Thank you, Dr. Lawlor.

I have four follow-up questions on the basis of what has been said. Will Mr. Burbridge and Dr. Lawlor give me a very brief overview of the rationale of Mr. Elliot going back and looking at the old files that are held securely in storage in Larch Hill? Dr. Lawlor can speak about those as a corporate officer of the organisation since 2012, but prior to that he cannot, or can to a certain extent. I would like clarity on what is a "certain extent". When people hear that 600 files are being reviewed, alarm bells go off. I just want that clarified.

Dr. John Lawlor

Obviously, Mr. Elliot would give a much more expert view on the quality of those than I would. I believe our files are a quantum better than they were six years ago. It is a process of getting them better.

In general, what has happened since 2012 is a husbandry issue. How do we improve our note-taking? How do we ensure everything is in the file that should be in it and that files are accurate and are not missing a point? Since my time in the organisation, I believe we have fulfilled our reporting requirements to the statutory bodies and I stake my reputation on the line on that. We have a responsibility to the statutory authorities, both to Tusla and the Garda, and we fulfil that diligently. Our staff have worked closely on that and they have learned as we have gone along and we have got better at it. We have stepped that up since Mr. Elliot arrived. That is a process of husbandry.

On the older files, it is prudent and entirely appropriate for us to take a more in-depth look than we did in 2012. It is entirely to the credit of the organisation that we have retained these files in the interests of any person, however long ago, who might have been hurt or distressed and who may need to get that information through inquiries from statutory agencies or from ourselves. It is a solemn responsibility for the organisation to make sure that happens. I am very happy that we will have the insight of Mr. Elliot to help us through that. He will be doing that in his professional work and we will support him in any way we can. It will be his call as to what needs to happen.

Does Mr. Burbridge have any comment?

Mr. Martin Burbridge

I would like to add to what Dr. Lawlor has said. We have seen reports in the newspapers but what we need to do is to make certain that we know exactly what is in those files and that if action is required to be taken on foot of the review Mr. Elliot will carry out, we take it. An alternative to that is to be satisfied that no action is required. What we are doing as part of this exercise is capturing as much of the pertinent information as possible in these files and putting it into a confidential database that we will have and we will continue doing that into the future. In the future, it will then be a lot easier for us, the statutory authorities or whoever to make inquiries of the database and find out information quickly. It will, therefore, equip us more effectively going forward than we have been equipped to date.

Some of the files go as far back as the 1950s so it may well be that some of those will not produce information that is pertinent now. Having said that, I honestly believe that one learns from the mistakes one makes in the past and it would be good to know if there was something we could have done but did not do and to make sure that it cannot reoccur in the future.

I appreciate this is entirely related to the fact we more or less demanded that the witnesses attend, and we very much appreciate that, but it occurred to me that there is no one here who can speak on behalf of the board, that is, there is no officeholder of the board here. Mr. McCann is on the board but I do not believe he holds a position of responsibility. This lends itself to the next point I want to make. The following concern is not gamesmanship but is a legitimate parental concern that has been brought to me. There are 2,500 scouters in my constituency and there is a fantastic facility only 250 m from my home to which my son was introduced on Sunday and with which he is delighted. I am not sure if it is in the public domain or if it has been said by the board but as far as I am aware, the board has not said sorry, that this should not have happened under its watch and that it is its responsibility never mind to the general public but to the volunteers.

Mr. Martin Burbridge

Perhaps I could make the following points because the Chairman has almost read my mind. Part of the reason that Mr. McCann is here is that he is a board member, although not an officer of the board. Two others who would be considered officers of the board made themselves available but we were not certain if we could increase the size of the delegation. If we had known that, the two others would have been with us. I apologise for that if there was a misunderstanding on our part.

The following is something I have been asked to mention, and it is exactly the point the Chairman raised. On behalf of the board of Scouting Ireland, we wish to apologise to the parents of our youth members, our adult members, the people of Ireland and the Governments, both North and South, for any anxiety and hurt we have caused. Together with Mr. Ian Elliot and our proposals for changing the structures and culture of the board of Scouting Ireland, we will address the shortcomings. We must continue to provide and improve a safe environment for both our youth and adult members and deal with compliance obligations under legislation and regulations, such as Children First, GDPR and the Charity Regulator in the jurisdictions on both parts of the island. In order to do this, it will be necessary for Scouting Ireland to address funding needs both current and future. This is absolutely essential to ensure we deliver services to exceed the standards required by the Childcare Acts.

We sincerely thank the committee for affording us the opportunity to come here today. We were not in a position to attend previously. I am not making excuses but a number of us are volunteers and were trying to deal with the issues we faced at the time. We have taken the first opportunity to attend. We recognise we have caused hurt, anxiety and fear. I can assure everybody in Scouting Ireland that we are working to make certain that we are dealing with the safeguarding shortcomings and that we will be taking whatever other action will be required and necessary when the investigation and reports that are currently in hand come to the board, hopefully, in the not too distant future.

I thank the committee members for their consideration, the way they posed questions and the way they treated us. It has been a pleasure to appear before the committee.

Thank you very much, Mr. Burbridge.

Once the management structure, etc., have been agreed by the general membership, I ask that the witnesses consider appearing before us again, perhaps with assistance of Mr. Elliot, if the timing is appropriate. I would make that request of the witnesses.

Mr. Martin Burbridge

Yes, Chairman, we would be delighted to do that.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

On behalf of the committee, I thank all the witnesses for their presentations and how they dealt so comprehensively with all the questions. On behalf of the committee, I express my appreciate to quite a number of individuals from around the country who contacted me and a number of my colleagues with huge concerns that we have addressed today. I appreciate the witnesses appearing before us and the reassurances they provided to us. I sincerely hope that the internal and the external investigations of the organisation will result in sufficient assurances being provided to the Minister so that funding can be restored. Nobody present has any interest in seeing an organisation of such importance nationally suffer as a result of the decision with which we collectively agree, or with which I certainly do. I sincerely hope funding can be restored as soon as is appropriate.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.19 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 16 May 2018.
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