Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs debate -
Wednesday, 11 Jul 2018

Tackling Childhood Obesity: Discussion (Resumed)

Vice Chairman

I wish everybody a good morning. I hope the witnesses will forgive the low attendance. I promise they will be watched. This is our last week so, as the witnesses can imagine, people will be coming and going. We are very interested in what they have to say. Everything will be recorded. People will be watching and we are delighted that the witnesses are here this morning. I welcome them all to this meeting of the Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs to continue our hearings on the topic of tackling childhood obesity. We will now have presentations from representatives of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, the Advertising Standards Authority for Ireland and Food Drink Ireland. I welcome from the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, Mr. Michael O'Keeffe, chief executive, and Mr. Declan McLoughlin, senior manager; from Food Drink Ireland, Mr. Kevin McPartlan, director of prepared consumer foods, and Ms Ailbhe Byrne, executive; and from the Advertising Standards Authority for Ireland, Ms Orla Twomey, chief executive, and Mr. Michael Lee, assistant chief executive. I also welcome Members and viewers who may be watching proceedings on Oireachtas TV .

Before we commence, and in accordance with procedure, I am required to draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I remind members and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones. They should at least place them in aeroplane mode because they can cause serious havoc. I also advise our witnesses that any submission or opening statements they have made will be published on the committee's website after the meeting. After the witnesses' presentations there will be questions from the members of the committee. I invite Mr. O'Keeffe to make his opening statement.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

I thank the committee for providing us with an opportunity to contribute to this important debate on childhood obesity. The Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, the independent regulator for broadcasting in Ireland, was established under the Broadcasting Act 2009. We have responsibility for a wide range of activities, including the licensing, regulation and support of independent and public service broadcast media in Ireland. We have a strategy statement which outlines our mission and vision and a series of strategic themes. It is in the context of one of those themes, that of empowering audiences, that we develop and review broadcasting codes and rules, assess compliance against these codes and rules, and facilitate complaints from members of the public about broadcasting content. The codes that are relevant to the debate on childhood obesity are the children’s commercial communications code and the general commercial communications code. I will briefly talk about those codes. There is more detail in the submission.

The children’s commercial communications code deals specifically with advertising, sponsorship, product placement and other forms of commercial promotion aimed at children, including the promotion of foods that are high in fat, salt and sugar. We define a child as a person under 18 years of age, although the code recognises that certain communications are aimed at younger age groups. It also recognises that younger children may need stronger and different types of protections from older children. There is a range of objectives which support the protection of children and cover a wide range of advertising practices. In particular, the rules in the code apply to any commercial communication that promotes products, services or activities that are deemed to be of particular interest to children or that are broadcast during and between children’s programmes, or both. The code also applies to communications for products, services, etc., that are of particular interest to children which are broadcast during adult viewing times.

On the rules applying to food advertising, which are the most relevant rules for today's debate, section 11 of the code contains 11 rules that deal specifically with diet and nutrition. These are outlined in the submission and I can talk about them during the questions and answers session. It is also important to note that the code contains a range of general rules which apply to all commercial communications. This means that any advertisement for food products would also have to comply with these general rules as well as the food-specific rules. In concert, these obligations are intended to ensure a rigorous and proportionate scheme for the protection of children that empowers parents, guardians and members of the public to hold broadcasters to account, while recognising the shared responsibility of broadcasters, parents and guardians to protect the interests of children. In technical terms, foods that are high in fat, sugar or salt, which we refer to as HFSS foods, are identified by use of a nutrient profiling model. This model was developed for use by the UK broadcast regulator, OFCOM. Before being adopted for Irish audiences, it was reviewed and endorsed by an expert working group put together by the BAI, which consisted of representatives from the Department of Health, the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, the Health Service Executive and safefood.

The general commercial communications code, which is the broader code aimed at all programming, complements the children's code. It sets a range of rules for commercial communications which are broadcast outside of children's programming. Section 16 of the code includes requirements in respect of food, nutrition and health which are intended to provide additional protection for children. Irish-based broadcasters are required to comply with both codes. The BAI also monitors UK opt-out channels. To explain that, UK opt-out channels are the UK channels which take out the UK advertising and insert Irish advertising. Sky would be a good example of such a service. Almost 40 such channels are being carried on the Sky and Virgin platforms in Ireland. Furthermore, any member of the public is entitled to make a complaint to the BAI. In practice, the BAI has received a low number of complaints in respect of the food rules and the monitoring the BAI has undertaken has not highlighted any significant issues with their implementation.

In respect of future action, our submission also makes reference to the European audiovisual media services directive, a revised text of which includes the extension of HFSS rules to on-demand and video sharing platform services.

The revised directive, which has just been agreed at European level is anticipated to be transposed into Irish law before the end of 2020. There is usually a two-year period from the final publication of the new directive and that should bring us close to the end of 2020. Later this year, the BAI will undertake a full review of the current rules dealing with food advertising to children. Any revisions arising from the review will take into account any new requirements resulting from the new European law. Obviously the BAI will only regulate the broadcast services, but the code will take into account any changes that may occur. The BAI will also continue to co-operate with State agencies as it has done in the past, including most recently in the development of the codes of practice for the regulation of food marketing in non-broadcast media under the aegis of the Department of Health.

The BAI appreciates that the audiovisual content and advertisements the public consume can influence culture, attitudes and behaviours that may lead to obesity. The BAI recognises the Irish public’s expectation that broadcasters should conduct themselves in a responsible manner and reflects this sentiment in the codes and standards we implement. I have gone into much more detail in the submission but have kept my opening statement to the key points. I will be happy to answer any questions from members.

Vice Chairman

I thank Mr. O'Keeffe. I call on Mr. McPartlan to make his opening statement.

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

Prepared Consumer Foods, PCF, is the Food Drink Ireland, FDI, directorate within IBEC that represents companies producing value-added food and beverages selling in Ireland or internationally to grocery, convenience retail, food service and other food companies, as well as companies bringing value-added food and beverages into Ireland for sale in this market.

That we face a serious challenge in tackling childhood obesity in Ireland is unquestionable. As an industry, we recognise our responsibility to play a part in meeting the challenge and are determined to do so. We recognise the same determination in other stakeholders and in this committee and, given the obvious need for legislators, regulators, stakeholders and industry to work together, we are grateful for the invitation to speak to members today.

Our determination to do something about childhood obesity must not, however dilute our commitment to do the right things. We must ensure we follow evidence rather than emotion. In A Healthy Weight for Ireland, the Department of Health’s obesity policy and action plan, we have a roadmap to reduce obesity across the Irish population. Step 3 is for Government to “secure appropriate support from the commercial sector to play its part in obesity prevention” and we are ready, willing and able collaborators.

To inform an evidence-based discussion, I refer the committee to the McKinsey Global Institute, MGI, paper “Overcoming obesity: an initial economic analysis”. MGI studied 74 interventions to address obesity in 18 areas that are being discussed or piloted around the world. It conducted a meta-analysis of research available. Of the 74 interventions, MGI was able to gather sufficient evidence to estimate what might be the potential cost and impact of 44 interventions. On the basis of this analysis, MGI has developed a perspective on what it might take to start to reverse rising obesity prevalence in a developed market. It found the interventions that had the highest level of impact across total population - I know children is the particular interest of this committee - were portion control and reformulation.

Food Drink Ireland recognises the importance of portion size and the key role it plays in achieving a balanced diet. Portion size is not just a matter of personal responsibility for people deciding how much food to put on their dinner plates. It is also for industry to be aware of the quantities of product in packages designed to be consumed as one portion.

Food and drink companies have been amending package size to positively impact on dietary intake. This is particularly the case with products which are commonly consumed “on-the-go” such as snacks, confectionery, ice-cream and beverages. FDI is currently in the process of capturing industry’s efforts for the first time. This report on the impact of this on the national diet will be published at the end of 2018.

In relation to reformulation, or to put it simply, the changing of recipes, in 2016 the Irish food industry became the first in the world to publish exact details of the impact of reformulation on the dietary intake of a nation. The FDI-Creme global reformulation project report was launched by then Minister for Health, Deputy Varadkar, and proved conclusively the positive impact industry efforts have had on consumption. I have provided copies of the full report to all members. It showed that during the seven years from 2005 to 2012 covered by the research: salt content of the products analysed reduced by 37%; sugar content fell by 14%; the amount of energy as measured in calories sold over the seven years to 2012 reduced by 12%; and both total fat and saturated fat intake reduced by approximately 10%.

Beverage companies alone took 10 billion calories out of the annual Irish diet between 2005 and 2012. Some 10% of all sugar contributed to the Irish diet by soft drinks was also reduced in these seven years. This was achieved through voluntary action years ahead of the Department of Health’s call to work with industry on a roadmap for reformulation targets. Industry has dynamically reduced fat, saturated fat, salt and sugar content through voluntary innovation alone such as, for example, a salt reduction programme that was run over ten years in conjunction with the Food Safety Authority of Ireland and which slowly but surely lead to dramatically reduced salt levels across a wide range of product categories. Phase 2 of the FDI reformulation project is under way and results of the further positive work undertaken by FDI members will be published in late 2018.

PCF also recognises the importance of responsible marketing practices. In October 2015, and per action 3.2 of A Healthy Weight for Ireland, the then Minister for Health, Deputy Varadkar, announced the appointment of Professor Alan Reilly to chair a working group to develop a code of practice for food marketing, promotion and sponsorship. The working group included representatives from the Departments of Health and Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Food Drink Ireland, the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, the Association of Advertisers in Ireland, the Institute of Advertising Practitioners in Ireland, safefood - the Food Safety Promotion Board, Healthy Food For All, the Food Safety Authority of Ireland and the HSE. On 14 February 2018, the Minister of State with responsibility for health promotion, Deputy Catherine Byrne, launched the voluntary codes. The purpose of the codes, which have been agreed with the food industry, is to ensure that foods high in fat, salt and sugar are marketed in a responsible way. In particular, the codes seek to ensure that children are not exposed to inappropriate marketing, advertising or sponsorship associated with these kinds of food and drink products, and that healthier food choices are actively promoted.

Food and Drink Ireland, FDI, welcomed the publication by the Minister of State, Deputy Catherine Byrne. Food and drink companies are committed to responsible marketing. The focus now must be on effective implementation. FDI has called on her to quickly bring together the key participants to develop the promised technical guidance document which advertisers, rights owners, media outlets and advertising practitioners now need to bring the voluntary codes of practice to life.

It is important to note that these codes sit alongside and complement existing voluntary and statutory measures with which industry complies, to ensure the responsible marketing of food to the public. These include the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI's general children’s commercial communications code, the Advertising Standards Authority for Ireland's code of standards for advertising and marketing communications in Ireland, the World Federation of Advertisers’ EU pledge and companies’ own internal codes of conduct.

Any single intervention is likely to have only a small overall impact on its own. FDI welcomes the Government’s whole-of-school approach in A Healthy Weight for Ireland: Obesity Policy and Action Plan 2016-2025. However, the Government could be investing in measures such as home economics classes, school sports clubs, access to green spaces and better infrastructure to allow for cycling and walking to and from school.

We applaud the committee's determination to tackle childhood obesity and share its commitment. We believe that broad collaboration between all stakeholders is necessary to effectively address the issue. The food and drink industry will remain fully dedicated to identifying and pursuing initiatives which will positively contribute to the health and well-being of all people in Ireland. We will continue to seek credible evidence to identify effective interventions and will be unstinting in their application. We recognise the important role we can play in addressing the issue and will not be found wanting in our dedication to play it.

Vice Chairman

I thank Mr. McPartlan. I now call on Ms Twomey.

Ms Orla Twomey

Good morning. I thank the Vice Chairman and members of the committee for the invitation to present on the Advertising Standards Authority for Ireland, ASAI. I am accompanied by my colleague, Mr. Michael Lee.

The ASAI, established in 1981 by the advertising industry, sets, enforces and regulates the highest standards of advertising in Ireland in the interests of consumers, society and of the advertising industry. The ASAI structure comprises a board of 15 directors, an independent complaints committee comprising 14 members and an executive for strategic and operational undertakings. The basic premise of the ASAI code is that of the International Chamber of Commerce’s marketing code, namely, all advertising should be legal, decent, honest and truthful. The ASAI code, in its seventh edition, was the subject of wide consultation with Departments, including the Departments of Health and Communications, Climate Action and Environment, non-governmental organisations, interest groups and the advertising industry, as well as a public consultation process. The code takes account of national and European legislation affecting advertising. Reviewing the advertising codes in other jurisdictions ensures that we are informed by global best practice.

In its 37 years, ASAI has examined over 30,000 advertising complaints, resulting in 7,500 adjudications. Advertising that is in breach of the code has to be amended or withdrawn and, crucially, our media members enforce our decisions in order that advertisements in breach are no longer published.

Moreover, we publish the complaints committee’s adjudications which is a "name and shame" sanction.

Adverse publicity is unwelcome to advertisers and generally has a remedial effect on future advertising, as negative publicity can result in penalties through reputational impact and reduced return on advertising spend. Ultimately, we experience a compliance rate of 98%.

The code has general and truthfulness rules, as well as a range of specific issues and sectoral rules. The code provides particular care for advertising that depicts, is addressed to and likely to be of interest to children. For instance, there are restrictions on advertisement content for food products targeted directly at preschool and primary school children. For children under 16 years, advertisements, except those for fresh fruit or fresh vegetables should not seem to encourage children to eat or drink a product only to take advantage of a promotional offer and should not encourage children to eat more than they otherwise would. Advertisements for alcohol products should not be directed at children or in any way encourage them to start drinking and should not use or refer to identifiable heroes or heroines of the young. It is evident from complaints received, and our compliance monitoring, that food and alcohol advertisers have demonstrated a high level of compliance with the ASAI code.

Notwithstanding the level of child obesity issues, the ASAI receives very few related complaints. In the past five years as few as 9% of total complaints received related to food advertising, with complaints primarily made on grounds of being misleading or containing offensive content.

The Advertising Standards Authority in the UK carried out a consultation on food advertising to children in 2016. It stated, following the consultation, the evidence indicated that advertisements promoting foods containing high amounts of fat, salt or sugar have a modest effect on children's immediate food preferences. The evidence also indicated that parental and peer influence, schools policy and sedentary lifestyles were the main factors that drive obesity.

The ASAI's approach is to collaborate broadly. For example, we were a key stakeholder in the development of the Department of Health's voluntary codes of practice for non-broadcast media advertising and marketing of food and non-alcoholic beverages that were introduced earlier this year. The ASAI's code is child-centric. Our systems are robust and compliance is high. We actively consider developments in the market and introduce new code rules, when appropriate. The ASAI's approach is to engage with stakeholders to ensure that the code is as relevant as possible.

I thank the members for their time and for the opportunity to present to the committee.

Vice Chairman

I thank Ms Twomey for her interesting presentation. Do the witnesses ever meet as a group?

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

I am a member of the ASAI's complaints committee so I meet the ASAI officials.

Vice Chairman

It would be quite interesting and probably useful if the witnesses met as a group. I would love to ask more questions but I want to let members ask their questions first. I call Senator Noone to commence.

Senator Catherine Noone

I might ask a few questions and then come back in as just four members are present. I do not know how much time is allowed but I shall be guided by the Vice Chairman.

My first question is for Mr. O'Keeffe and the rest of the witnesses. I cannot speak for others but I do not think that childhood obesity is solely caused by sugar or advertisements. All of us here have heard a lot of information about what potentially leads to obesity. On the face of it, the solution seems simple in the sense that one will not gain weight if one does not eat too much and make time to exercise. However, obesity can be due to emotional reasons. The causes of obesity are complex and it is hard to address, especially for policymakers.

In the context of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, recently I did a bit of work on online advertising. I do not mean to be disrespectful of the work done by the BAI by stating we need to address the fact that children are digital natives and so see online advertisements. It is no wonder there are so few complaints because, to my understanding, children do not watch as much television as used to be the case when many of us were younger. There are no tangible statistics but it naturally follows that marketing companies actively target children online which must have an impact, in terms of the clever ways marketing companies associate certain products with sports stars, etc. online. I seek Mr. O'Keeffe's comments on that point, although it is relevant to all the witnesses.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

I mentioned the audiovisual media services directive, AVMS, directive in my submission.

Senator Catherine Noone

Yes.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

The Senator is right that the BAI is not responsible for online advertisements.

Senator Catherine Noone

Who is responsible?

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

At present it is the ASAI. That situation will change due to the AVMS directive and the revised directive contains a specific reference in this regard. The AVMS directive has been endorsed by the trilogue, that is, the Commission, the European Parliament and Council of Ministers. I expect the directive will be finalised by the end of the year at the latest, if not sooner. Responsibility will then lie with members, as legislators, because the directive must be implemented. As things currently stand, the Broadcasting Act covers traditional broadcasting.

Senator Catherine Noone

Naturally.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

The AVMS directive will bring in videos on demand and video sharing platforms. The likes of Facebook and YouTube will come under some form of regulation but legislation is required, which will take between 18 months to two years to pass through the Oireachtas. That is how one will address the matter, from a legislative point of view. That does not take away from the fact that the matter is currently addressed in the ASAI through its mechanisms.

Senator Catherine Noone

I thank Mr. O'Keeffe for his reply. Members only have a certain amount of time to ask questions and, therefore, I aim to cover as much as I can.

I have met Mr. McPartlan before and know about his work. I congratulate the industry on the reformulation. I was an advocate for a sugar tax. I am not necessarily interested in the tax but in the fact that the industry, even in advance of the introduction of a sugar tax, had responded very positively to reformulating their products. There is an argument on whether sweeteners are good but the initiative sought to reduce the amount of calories in people's diets in order to tackle obesity.

Mr. McPartlan stated his organisation shares our commitment to tackling childhood obesity. It is with the greatest respect that I say many of the companies he represents report to their shareholders, whose aim is to make money. I would like to know the percentage of money that his members spend on online marketing. Does he have information or interesting statistics in that regard? I have a particular interest in the online area because I feel that it is the only show in town.

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

I will try to answer the Senator's question as best I can. Before doing so, I refer to her earlier remark about the reformulation coming in advance of the implementation of the sugar tax. I wish to stress that reformulation takes years.

Senator Catherine Noone

Yes.

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

Anybody who has ever had an involvement in the food industry knows that it can take between two and four years to change a product. Let us be frank. The vast bulk of soft drinks, which are covered by the sugar tax, are not produced in Ireland. The market in Ireland is so small that Irish legislation will not make a fundamental difference to the formulation of products. Reformulation has been happening for more than 30 years and we are capturing the data. It would be false to portray that as a response to the introduction of a sugar tax.

Senator Catherine Noone

I believe the reformulation quickened in advance of the introduction of the sugar tax. I think that is so because I have a lot of meetings on the matter, and in Britain as well.

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

In terms of all the data the Senator has in front of her, the last data were captured in 2012 and none of that was in response to a sugar tax.

The Senator's fear that I might be unable to give her real information on the level of spend on online versus any other form is correct. I do not have such information. Equally, expenditure varies. We represent 150 companies. Some companies spend nothing on online yet others will spent the bulk of their budget on it. I do not wish to mislead her by making an ill-informed guess.

Senator Catherine Noone

Ms Twomey mentioned alcohol. The matter will be covered in the Public Health (Alcohol) Bill 2015. I am of the view that we should have a public health (obesity) Bill when it comes to advertising, especially online. I do not think that we have done enough in this space to tackle the obesity epidemic, notwithstanding the lifestyle choices, sedentary lifestyles, etc. that have been mentioned. All of that is hugely relevant and I do not take from that.

Ms Twomey mentioned there has been a high level of compliance in broadcast media.

In the context of what I asked Mr. O'Keeffe, will Ms Twomey comment on how she thinks online issues might be addressed in the short term while we await legislation to regulate?

Ms Orla Twomey

When I mentioned compliance, it was in respect of all media. This is because the ASAI code goes across all media, including broadcast media. We have a very broad online remit. We cover paid-for advertising online and posts on companies' own pages. The challenge regarding online advertising is that our viewing experiences tend to be individual to ourselves. Approximately 40% of complainants mention that they have seen material online as well on television or in print, so they complain about multiple media. We are very conscious that parents might not see what children are seeing. How we address this is a challenge, and I am not sure if there is an easy answer. People know that the ASAI is here to complain to and we are very easy to find, so if parents have concerns about advertising their children are seeing, they can complain to us, we can approach the advertisers and we can get copies of the advertising.

Senator Catherine Noone

I am somewhat sceptical that complaints are an argument for anything. There is a nexus between children and parents that is not clear. Who would complain and would they complain if they saw it? The act of complaining takes some effort and I am not sure if it happens as much as it might in those circumstances.

Ms Orla Twomey

Most of our complaints come through our online form, which we introduced some years ago and which is very simple to fill out.

Senator Catherine Noone

I do not mean what I am saying as a reflection on the ASAI but rather on reality of the situation.

Vice Chairman

I have a number of questions - some for Ms Twomey and others for Mr. McPartlan. Senator Noone is absolutely right. The fact that people complain is not central to her argument.

Ms Twomey said that only 9% of complaints in the past five years relate to food advertising. Following on from what Senator Noone said, is that because of the ignorance regarding food, sugar, etc? Ms Twomey referred to only 7,000 adjudications in respect of 30,000 complaints. Without naming a brand, company or product, will Ms Twomey give an example of the type of complaint involved?

Mr. McPartlan represents many companies that probably make a good few bob. Does his company or any of the others contribute to research in childhood obesity or help organisation that try to deal with this, such as charities? That would make sense.

Ms Orla Twomey

There have been 7,500 adjudications. We received over 30,000 complaints but not all were within the remit of the code. Sometimes we receive complaints on packaging or non-commercial advertising but these do not fall within our remit. Sometimes there is no basis to a complaint or we work with the advertisers to amend the advertising, which means there is no need to have a formal adjudication. We see our role as one of ensuring that advertising is either amended or withdrawn. We achieve that either through negotiation with the advertiser if there is something that can be easily done to make the advertisement compliant or by means of a formal adjudication of our complaints committee in cases where there may be a precedent involved. The process we go through for investigation is quite robust.

The percentage I provided in respect of complaints in respect of food advertising relates to all such advertising. We do not have a mechanism in the system to easily extract which foods might be considered to be high in fat, salt and sugar. That is a challenge. However, I looked at the figures and made a somewhat informed and educated guesstimate. Where food is the product complained about, the basis of the complaint might relate to a misleading price or to content that a parent might find offensive for a child to see. As a result, it might not relate specifically to the fact that the product is food - it could be any product. I estimate that 40% of the complaints involved related to products that could be considered high in fat, salt and sugar. The other 60% related to products which would not be considered high in fat, salt and sugar. Of those complaints which related to children - whether it was that children were referred to in the advertisement or the complaint - I estimate that 19 were in respect of children and products that were high in fat, salt and sugar. The number is very small.

Vice Chairman

Is that because it does not fall within the ASAI's remit? Is it because there is nothing in the relevant protocol whereby the ASAI can say that there is too much fat or sugar in a product or to allow it to search for the issues in that regard?

Ms Orla Twomey

We do not have rules that specifically reference products that are high in fat, salt, and sugar.

Vice Chairman

Should there be such rules?

Ms Orla Twomey

When we reviewed our code, which was launched in 2015, we considered introducing rules. We were coming to the end of a two-year process and needed to finalise the code. We introduced rules that would reduce the impact of advertising on pre-primary and primary school children. Advertisements that are targeted through the content - that is, those which are targeted at pre-primary and primary school children through the use of colours, music or engagement - cannot involve a promotional element and cannot use licensed characters. We said at the time that we would revisit the introduction of rules that would specifically reference products that are high in fat, salt and sugar. Shortly after we launched the code, however, the Department of Health announced its process to look at non-broadcast codes. We became part of that process and worked with the working group. Those rules have been launched. We are aware that the Department of Health is currently preparing a tender document on the compliance and monitoring of those rules. We are keeping a watching brief. We will need to examine how our rules align with those rules and do not need to wait for another full code review to do so. We can amend rules once we are certain how it is progressing but we do not want to have a conflict between the two codes. We are aware that we will need to look at them again.

Vice Chairman

Many members of this committee and the Joint Committee on Future of Mental Health Care believe that the HSE is very good at kicking the can down the road. How long has this debate with the Department of Health been in train?

Ms Orla Twomey

Is this the tender document?

Vice Chairman

Yes.

Ms Orla Twomey

As Mr. McPartlan said, the codes were launched by the Minister in February. I have been informed that the Department of Health is actively working on the tender documents now. The various entities involved with the working group are not permitted to be part of that process.

Vice Chairman

I suggest that the ASAI come back to the committee with that. It can write to us and we will include it in one of our discussions. To be honest, there could be a very bland, boring advertisement about a food product that could have a high fat and sugar content. It is not enough to just look at what the advertisement looks like. The measuring of the fat, sugar and so on is far more important. The ASAI would be brilliant at doing the latter so it should take it on board. I ask that the ASAI write to us in respect of this matter and we will have a further discussion.

Will Mr. McPartlan respond to the question I put to him?

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

We share the frustration that the voluntary code of practice has been delayed in the Department of Health. The three organisations here were part of that working group. We spent two years on it and it was very tough to get agreement. Our members came a long way and it is frustrating for everyone involved that it stalled. I share the Vice Chairman's frustration.

The Vice Chairman asked about industry's investment in other interventions. We are in a difficult position.

Food Drink Ireland does not do so because we are a representative body that speaks on behalf of its members. Individual members do all sorts of things and are involved in a great deal of corporate social responsibility at local, regional and national level. It is difficult to say whether they would get involved in research projects relating to obesity. If a row of academics were lined up here to speak to the committee and one was entirely funded by the food industry, I am sure members would feel that his or her evidence was not terribly credible. I disagree about that, because scientific rigour should be applied and research should stand on its own two feet, regardless of who is picking up the tab, but that does not seem to be a commonly held view. Companies tend not to do that because it can make the resultant reports seem less credible. Food Drink Ireland paid for the reformulation report which I have given to the committee today. It cost many hundreds of thousands of euro to produce as there is a savage amount of data involved. We are collecting the data for a second iteration and we are nine months into that. It needs to go into a black box and be analysed against the Irish Universities Nutrition Alliance, IUNA, data. It is ultimately paid for by members of the Food Drink Ireland health initiative.

The spend tends not to be on academic research but there is a lot of community activity. For example, many summer camps are supported by food and drink companies, something in respect of which there is often criticism. As Senator Noone stated, it is complex but it is a question of energy in versus energy out. We are part of energy in and we are encouraging people to get the energy out.

Vice Chairman

Food Drink Ireland is paid for by 150 companies. It would set a very good example if it were to support a child obesity clinic. The saddest child in the world is one who is obese. Does Mr. McPartlan realise how few people read reports? He should consider that in the future.

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

As I said, we want a debate based on evidence rather than emotion. Really detailed research has been undertaken into the most effective interventions for obesity and number one is portion size, which is a combination of deciding how much one puts on one's plate and if one buys an ice cream for dessert, what is on the end of the stick. Reformulation is the most significant impact the industry can have and we have total control over that with huge investment going into it. The cost of a new line for a product, or to produce a variant of an existing product such as one with reduced fat, salt or sugar, is huge in terms of time and money, involving millions of euro per product.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I have been reading the report. I have to acknowledge the 14 industry leaders who contributed to what is an excellent document. To whom will it be circulated?

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

The document was published two years ago and we are currently gathering data for the second phase, which we expect to publish in the autumn of this year. In addition to analysing the impact of reformulation it will look at two other things, namely, the impact of package size changes and fortification. Reformulation is not just about what is taken out. There may be an increased need for particular nutrients and we are also capturing data from food companies fortifying their products. Putting on the green jersey seems to have been quite unpopular in recent weeks but Ireland is the only country in the world which has a report along these lines and that is because of the Irish Universities Nutrition Alliance, IUNA, data. They allow us to look not just at the quantities of nutrients sold but at those consumed. We presented the document at the OECD. It is a very significant piece of work in an area in which Ireland is leading the world.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

Have any more members of the industry joined to fund it or is it still the same 12 as for the past two years?

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

There have been a couple of changes but the number is fundamentally the same.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

Like everyone here, I believe broadcasting, whether that is television, online or the print media, influences children and the industry has a huge responsibility in this regard. Senator Noone referred to the online world but my hobbyhorse is "The Big Big Movie". The latter is broadcast at 6.30 p.m. on a Saturday, which is family viewing time, is sponsored by a particular fast-food outlet that also has intermittent advertisements throughout the broadcast. I have a huge problem with that and I wonder where the codes and standards of the broadcasting industry sit within that. Adults watch the movie but most who watch it are aged under 18 and it is geared specifically at children. The fast-food outlet targets children and influences their behaviour. I take on board the notion of food in and food out, as well as parent responsibility, but what is the responsibility of the industry which allows this to happen? I direct my questions at Mr. O'Keeffe and Ms Twomey. I would like the answer to this question before I move on.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

I do not think the Deputy is going to like the answer.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

Give it to me.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

I will. I know exactly the programme about which she is talking and the BAI has received complaints about it. The sponsorship does not breach the current children's commercial communications code because the code relates specifically to children's programming. Unless the percentage of children watching is at 50% or greater, which it is not-----

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

How does Mr. O'Keeffe know that?

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

We know from the ratings information.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I do not accept that. I am entitled not to accept it, in the same way that Mr. O'Keeffe is entitled to present it. Tell me where the facts are to be found in respect of this matter.

Senator Catherine Noone

Ratings come from the question of whether a television is switched on.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

No, the ratings are based on the television audience measurement, TAM, ratings, which are the accepted industry standard. We base our judgment on them. If it is over 50%, it falls within children's programming but if it is under that, it is different. There are arguments that 50% is too high and that family viewing should not be included but they are different arguments. The sponsorship referred to by the Deputy does not breach the rules as they stand.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

Mr. O'Keeffe said he had received complaints but when is the last time the BAI reviewed the rules?

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

We are due to review the rules.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

The BAI has not reviewed the rules based on the complaints it has received.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

We have only received one complaint.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

It has only received one complaint from the entire country on "The Big Big Movie" at family viewing time.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

Yes.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I find that hard to believe.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

We have received one complaint. It was quite a detailed complaint but it is the only one, though the situation has been spoken about.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

This conversation will become a national topic. I can see Joe Duffy running with it straight away and asking whether people believe it is family viewing time.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

We do not dispute that it is family viewing.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

No, but we are disputing the rules and the number of complaints about it.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

The interpretation of the rules is whether it is designated as a children's programme, which it is not. It is designated as family viewing. That is one point. The second is about the ratings. We look at the ratings that programmes receive and they are below 50%.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

The witness is saying that 50% of children are watching them.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

We are saying that less than 50% of the total audience watching that programme is children.

Senator Catherine Noone

I cannot believe that.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

That is based on the Nielsen TAM ratings we receive every week.

Senator Catherine Noone

I cannot believe we are expected to believe that.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

Declan McLoughlin is our expert on ratings. I will ask him to comment.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

Please do.

Mr. Declan McLoughlin

On the 50% audience profile threshold, the focus of the code is on children's programmes. The way it works is that the 50% is almost a technical measure so when broadcasters are planning future programming they can look at trends in children's viewing and identify which programmes will have more than 50%. In practice they tend to be children's programming in the traditional sense, what one sees in the morning or during children's programming streams. That is where that works. It means if one were to get significant numbers of children watching, which is a slightly separate issue, one would be coming much lower on the percentage. There is the issue of how many children are watching versus how much of the audience is made up of children. There might be a small number of children watching but they would make up more than 50% of the audience because it is a children's programme and that is the only audience. One finds that if there is a programme that is very popular with children, such as during the family viewing time or the World Cup, there might be significantly higher numbers of individual children watching but they would not make up half of the audience. One of the issues to examine in the review is whether we should be regulating family viewing time as a result of that.

The children's code is focused on children. It considers children who may be unaccompanied or where there are particular products such as toys that are targeted at them directly-----

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

That is what happens with "The Big Big Movie".

Mr. Declan McLoughlin

Outside of that, there is adult viewing time, in respect of which there is the other code. There is that mixture of where children may be watching on their own and, therefore, need particular protection or where they are watching with family, where the view of the code is that there is a shared responsibility between broadcasters, parents and guardians. That complaint raises an issue that we will have to examine in the review of the code.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

It was the first time we received a complaint, although the Deputy finds that hard to believe. I concede that it has been spoken of a great deal but it was the first time we received a complaint.

Senator Catherine Noone

This feeds back into our point about the complaints issue.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

Clearly, it has raised an issue about the numbers of children as opposed to the percentage and the difficulty that arises. For example, what was the most popular programme among 15 to 18 year olds in the last two weeks? It was "Love Island".

Senator Catherine Noone

That raises another issue.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

My point is that what we regulate up to now is based on a percentage, but the issue the members are raising is a programme that has a large number of children watching. Sports programmes would never get anywhere near 50% but we know many children watch them. Does that mean one introduces it there? They are the questions we will be consulting on in the review we will undertake.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

When is the review taking place?

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

We are scheduled to review next year, and that is our intention. The AVMS directive is to be finalised towards the end of this year so we will undertake the review then because that will look at what the new code should entail as well. It is our intention to do it at that point.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I have a question for the ASAI representatives. How does the ASAI code interact with other codes that govern this area?

Ms Orla Twomey

We look at complaints about broadcast advertising, be it television or radio. If we get a complaint that is covered in our code we will deal with it. If it is an element that is not covered in our code but we are aware that the BAI code has rules in that regard we will advise the complainant of that fact and advise the person on where to go to make the complaint.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

With regard to my topic and the 6 o'clock viewing time, I assume or hope the authority has had more than one complaint about this. How does it engage with the BAI to address it?

Ms Orla Twomey

I am not sure whether we had a complaint about that, but I will check and let the committee know. If we were to receive a complaint about it we would advise our complainant that we do not deal with it because the issue is specifically covered under the BAI code, and we would advise the complainant how to make his or her complaint to the BAI.

Chairman

Is that all right?

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

There is a great deal of work to be done there, to be honest.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

I thank the witnesses for attending and for their presentations. I was struck by Mr. McPartlan's comment to the effect that we must follow evidence rather than emotion. I will put forward some evidence and ask him for his opinion on it. The total lifetime cost of childhood obesity to the State is estimated at €4.6 billion. There is a further estimated annual healthcare cost of €1.7 million. Another alarming figure from safefood research is that an estimated 55,056 children currently living in the State are overweight. My colleagues and I consider this figure to be very alarming. The World Obesity Federation predicts that by 2025 some 241,000 schoolchildren in Ireland will be overweight or obese. That is not emotion, it is evidence. Does Mr. McPartlan think the consequences for the future health of children in Ireland look quite dire?

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

That is if the statistics are 100% evidential and are based on some decent research. When I say we need to look at evidence rather than emotion I am referring to evidence for what will be an effective intervention. Nobody is denying the scale of the problem or that we need to address it. I am suggesting that sometimes the debate gets lost in the emotion rather than looking at what will work. We know what will work because there has been decent research on it.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

Mr. McPartlan referred to what can work in his submission. He commented on a whole-school approach and said that the Government should be investing in measures such as home economics classes, school sports clubs, access to green space, better infrastructure and so forth. However, throughout his submission he ignored the school environment. He ignored vending machines in schools, tuck shops, soft drinks machines in schools and sponsorship of school teams by food companies, all under the veil of advertising. In addition, when children are not in the school environment but outside the school there are advertisements on bus shelters and McDonalds branches in the proximity of schools. Mr. McPartlan spoke about making home economics mandatory in schools. Does he not think it is disjointed to talk about teaching children in the classroom yet it is not followed in the school environment? Can he address that in the context of the joined-up approach he mentioned?

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

I am happy to. In the three-page document in which we presented our opening statement, one paragraph refers to schools. The reason it is one paragraph is that I cannot control what happens in a school, nor can the food industry. We are talking about our responsibility and the role we can play, are playing and will continue to play. We mentioned the schools issue as part of the support for the A Healthy Weight for Ireland route map, which refers to a whole-of-school approach. It is not that I am unaware of the importance of schools in this, but the reason we did not focus heavily on it in our document is that to do so would be for us to abdicate responsibility. We want to play our role and do what we can. We can talk reformulation, packaging and marketing codes.

I will deal with each of the Deputy's points.

Vending machines in schools were mentioned. No member of Food Drink Ireland and no food company of which I am aware in Ireland operates vending machines in schools.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

Do they supply products to be put into them?

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

We sell products. How people put them into markets is not something we control. Members of Food Drink Ireland do own and operate vending machines, but none of them, categorically, does so in schools. Flat-out 0% of vending machines in schools are operated by food and drink companies in Ireland.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

They do not own the machines, but they are filling them. Let us be real. If we are to talk about a school approach, we need to be serious. The companies Mr. McPartlan's organisation represents are supplying the products in the machines.

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

The way it works is that our members will supply products to wholesalers. Retailers then come to the wholesalers, take the products off the shelves and sell them in whatever way they sell them. We are not in the business of having end user licences for food products. We sell into the supply chain and do not have control over who buys or how they retail them.

One point I forgot to address made by Senator Catherine Noone was about expenditure on advertising compared with the spend on other things. The reputational damage is significant if food companies are attacked for having products in schools. The reason none of the food companies puts its stuff into schools is that it does not think it is an appropriate place and it knows that there is reputational damage involved. I do not think any member of Food Drink Ireland would be unhappy not to have products in vending machines in schools. It is not something over which we have any control. If I gave the committee some reassurance, it would be disingenuous because I do not have any control over it.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

Has Food Drink Ireland any control over the advertisements placed outside schools on bus shelters?

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

Advertising on bus shelters is part of the-----

Deputy Denise Mitchell

Mr. McPartlan is talking about a school approach. He has made reference to what we should be doing. He talks about open spaces and better infrastructure for cycling to school. The children would all be cycling to school and there would be an advert displayed on their way to school. We need to be realistic.

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

There are measures to which we agreed in the voluntary code of practice which is awaiting implementation by the Department of Health which address that issue. They were not easy concessions to win from members, but we have agreed to do it.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

I will come back to Mr. McPartlan on that issue. He stated beverage members had taken 10 billion calories out of the annual Irish diet between 2005 and 2012. Was it across jthe seven years or in one year?

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

It was 7 billion across ten years.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

How many calories are we talking about per person in that timeframe?

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

I would not be able to make the calculation off the top of my head. I will let the committee know.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

Based on the information Food Drink Ireland gave us, we made some calculations. It worked out at one calorie per day. Does Mr. McPartlan think that is sufficient?

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

I do not think that is an accurate representation of the reality, if the calculation is based on the entire population, because not everybody consumes the products. A fairer representation would be to say 10% of all of the sugar contained in soft drinks was removed in that time. It has had a serious impact. I have provided copies of the document which includes tables for particularly high consuming groups and the impact on them is far greater than on the average consumer.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

Will Mr. McPartlan get us the information on how he worked out those figures? We are interested in seeing them because they have always been championed. We need to have the full facts.

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

Certainly.

Vice Chairman

We will take a note and follow up on it with Mr. McPartlan.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

If I can come to the ASAI, Ms Twomey has talked about naming and shaming. Does she think it really is a deterrent? I do not think it is, if someone breaches something and his or her name goes up online. Surely there should be some fine or sanction. Would that not be more appropriate? It is a case of seeking forgiveness rather than permission.

Ms Orla Twomey

The naming and shaming sanction is actually quite powerful. It is easy to underestimate how strongly companies feel about their brand reputation. To be associated with a finding that they have either misled or offended their audience is not something about which most companies would be happy. We do know from discussions with companies that an adjudication before the complaints committee for decision is reported at the very highest levels. Obviously, sometimes we will have companies that like to court publicity, but that happens very rarely. The naming and shaming sanction is very powerful. It is being used by many regulatory organisations, whether they are statutory or self-regulatory.

The other thing about our sanction is that advertising that is in breach of the regulations has to be amended or withdrawn. Small companies have very small marketing budgets and if they have to withdraw an advertisement, it is investment they can no longer leverage. It is the same with large companies. Television advertisements are very expensive to produce creatively and therefore, they are left with a piece of collateral that they cannot use. The advertisements are not made to be used as a once-off. Companies will invest in their marketing strategy over six to 12 months or perhaps even longer and will want to reuse advertisements over that time. It is not just about the reputational damage. Even though we do not apply fines, there is a financial sanction when advertising has to be withdrawn or amended.

Vice Chairman

Before I hand over to Senator Catherine Noone, may I ask Ms Twomey how her company is funded?

Ms Orla Twomey

As it is self-regulatory, we are funded by a levy of 0.2% on advertising spend, which is collected by Mediavine agencies from their clients and remitted to us on a quarterly basis.

Vice Chairman

From where do the rest of the ASAI's funds come?

Ms Orla Twomey

That represents 94% of our funding. We also have some industry membership subscriptions.

Vice Chairman

Do food companies actually pay for the ASAI?

Ms Orla Twomey

Through a levy on their advertising spend.

Vice Chairman

There is no conflict in that regard.

Ms Orla Twomey

Any regulatory organisation receives funding from somewhere. In our case, it is from the industry. Therefore, the industry decided that it wanted to have a platform to set and enforce high standards.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

The ASAI is not a statutory body.

Ms Orla Twomey

No, it is not a statutory body. It is a self-regulatory body set up by the advertising industry 37 years ago. I do not believe there is a conflict because ultimately we have a complaints committee with an independent chairperson and a majority of members not associated with the industry. The complaints committee sees the formal decisions we bring to it. We also bring a sample of cases to it on a regular basis in order that it can be happy that when we are deciding to deal with something informally, we are doing so in line with the expected standards. The adjudications we have published on our website show that we act in a manner that is consistent across all advertisers. It is a matter of whether the content of the ad breaches the code. Actually who the advertiser is is not particularly relevant to us. What is relevant is the content and what the code states.

Vice Chairman

On the possibility of a conflict, Ms Twomey stated that sugar, fat and so forth are not measured. Does that not create a conflict given that the companies make a payment to the ASAI? I apologise for putting Ms Twomey on the spot. Perhaps she will revert to the committee with an answer. I believe there is a conflict.

Ms Orla Twomey

I am happy to answer the question. As I stated, we looked at that when we did our last code review on high-fat, high-sugar rules. After a two-year consultation, we were at the stage where we needed to launch the new code but we undertook at the time that we would come back on this. The Department of Health and the working group process started at that point, however, and we became involved in that. We were not trying to shy away from this area. Rather than having parallel approaches, we felt it was better to see where the Department of Health approach went and to work with that.

Vice Chairman

There are two issues. One is conflict and the other is the measuring and the HSE involvement, which tends to delay things.

Senator Catherine Noone

Deputy Rabbitte and I are making the point that the ASAI is in a position similar to that of Drinkaware. There is an underlying conflict but it is one accepted in industry now, for good or for ill. Returning to some of the earlier points, I have a question for Mr. McPartlan. Does Food Drink Ireland represent fast food? Is that considered the restaurant industry?

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

Of our 150 members, one member might be characterised as fast food in the common parlance.

Senator Catherine Noone

Is it one of the mainline fast food companies?

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

It is a recognised name.

Senator Catherine Noone

In that context, I will raise an issue for the wider panel. We touched on this already when sporting programmes and matches were mentioned. In the hurling championship matches leading up to the all-Ireland final, including many of the matches shown on media, there is major input from a certain fast food company based in a county that is likely to win the all-Ireland. We all know which company I am talking about. This seems to be a cloudy issue. I have so many points I want to make, I am getting a little muddled. Will the witnesses comment on the fact that the broadcasting code seems to allow fast food companies and a particular massive fast food company to advertise heavily during programmes? Sponsorship is a different issue and I understand that. What do the witnesses have to say about that?

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

There are restrictions in the general code. I spoke about that earlier. Not more than 25% of total advertising or ad breaks can be for that type of material. There cannot be a massive splurge of advertising but such companies are permitted to advertise in programmes that are not children's programmes.

Senator Catherine Noone

I find the percentages infuriating. It is just 25% of advertising-----

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

It is up to 25%.

Senator Catherine Noone

What sort of logic is applied to that?

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

We consulted-----

Senator Catherine Noone

What is the genesis of the decision to allow up to 25%? Do advertisers or those in charge of advertising believe this type of advertising does not have an impact if it accounts for only a quarter of advertising?

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

No, we are talking about restrictions. Drink was mentioned as well and this is similar. There is a restriction on the amount of alcohol advertising permitted and the same applies to high-fat, high-sugar food advertising. When we say the maximum is 25%, it would rarely be anywhere approaching that.

Senator Catherine Noone

It does not need to be 100% of the advertising for it to have a negative impact. I am flabbergasted by the rationale applied. It brings me back to the point that Mr. McLoughlin made. Why are we tracking the percentage of children online and watching particular programmes? How can we possibly know the number of children watching? The ratings system was explained but it seems nebulous at best. Are there detailed statistics as to how these figures are arrived at? Not many adults I know are watching the big movie on a Saturday afternoon, which is clearly geared towards children. How the witnesses can tell me with straight faces they believe less than 50% of the people watching those programmes are children is beyond me. I am flabbergasted.

Mr. Declan McLoughlin

I can address that. The BAI uses the TAM media data, which is the industry standard. I do not know the full details because we have no responsibility over it but a panel of individuals and households tracks viewing by individual members of a household. That is fed into a database and then used by television broadcasters and advertisers to plan advertising campaigns based on demographics, gender, age and all the usual factors. That approach is internationally recognised and accepted as the standard by television broadcasters and audiences. How it works brings us back to the point that a different way of looking at it may be necessary because as the audience gets bigger the percentage of children gets lower. For example, while "The Late Late Toy Show" has a high number of children watching, the percentage of children watching is nowhere near 50% of the audience. The audience profile looks at children's programming, rather than family viewing and other programming.

Advertising for high fat high sugar food during those programmes is not unregulated. It is prohibited for children's programming and a series of content rules apply in respect of promotional offers, licensed characters-----

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

Sports stars.

Mr. Declan McLoughlin

Yes, sports stars and celebrities cannot be included. There is a range of rules. There is also a range of other advertisements apart from high fat high sugar foods. There are also advertisements for alcohol, betting companies and so on during broadcasts of hurling and World Cup matches. What children see during adult viewing time is a more complex question.

Senator Catherine Noone

I understand it is not straightforward. The Chair referred to conflict and I see a conflict here. Broadcasters are trying to determine who is watching television to plan their programming and they have to sell advertising. Is Mr. McLoughlin telling me that does not create a conflict? Is he telling me that these tests are not in some way facilitative for broadcasters to allow certain advertising to be shown during those programmes that is not ideal?

Mr. Declan McLoughlin

I cannot speak for the company that creates the data-----

Senator Catherine Noone

I know Mr. McLoughlin did not create the system.

Mr. Declan McLoughlin

-----but my understanding is that it is trustworthy in respect of its statistical data. Broadcasters and advertisers are allowed to advertise to children and to target children with their advertising. These companies are legal. Our role is to decide what responsible broadcasting looks like and to put in place rules and restrictions. For example, with the new code, high fat high sugar foods cannot be advertised to children during children's programming. That is a significant change. When our predecessor, the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland, BCI, introduced its rules in 2006, we were ahead of any European country.

Senator Catherine Noone

Is the UK ahead now?

Mr. Declan McLoughlin

No, we have parity.

Senator Catherine Noone

What about the watershed?

Mr. Declan McLoughlin

That is mooted but not in place.

Senator Catherine Noone

If I have anything to do with it, it will be in place.

Mr. Declan McLoughlin

We will review our code and that is exactly the type of issue we will examine.

Senator Catherine Noone

It will need to be reviewed thoroughly to avoid a watershed. We will have no alternative but to go down the road of a public health obesity Bill or whatever way it is referred to or accurately titled. Much can be done to prevent children being subjected to this type of marketing. It is a minefield.

I have a quick question for Mr. McPartlan on addition to and fortification of food. I have a particular interest in folic acid being added to foods on which there is much pushback from certain organisations because it is viewed as nanny statism. Do the witnesses have any comments on that?

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

We are capturing the data.

Senator Catherine Noone

I would love if some of it could be sent to me.

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

We have yet to see what the outputs will be.

We plan that our report will highlight the ten most dramatic increases. At this stage, I do not know whether folic acid will feature in that but I would be happy to provide the Senator with the relevant data because I am aware of her interest in the matter.

Senator Catherine Noone

The Department of Health and the HSE are not averse to the idea of food fortification and they were receptive when the matter was raised recently in another committee. If Mr. McPartlan has statistics on this area, I ask him to provide them.

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

Even if the issue is not covered in the report, we will ensure the Senator gets that information.

Senator Catherine Noone

While it is only indirectly related to childhood obesity, food fortification is clearly related to children.

On another point that links in to a question I asked about advertising and fast food organisations, Kellogg's sponsors GAA cúl camps. Virtually all of the company's cereals are laden with sugar. While there is good work being done in the cúl camps, should Kellogg's sponsorship of these camps be avoided?

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

I am reluctant to comment on a particular member.

Senator Catherine Noone

I probably should not mention a particular member.

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

What I would say is that if the Senator were to look at the level of reformulation in breakfast cereals undertaken in the past ten or 15 years, she would find it has been enormous. It is one category of food and drink products which is being unfairly criticised. The common view of the formulation of those products is at odds with the facts. That would be worth looking at.

Senator Catherine Noone

We will definitely agree to disagree on that. There is no question that breakfast cereals are full of sugar and it does not take a scientist to come to that conclusion. Porridge is the only cereal that does not have an amount of sugar in it, apart from natural sugars. Even the products that are sold as being healthy have a disproportionate amount of sugar.

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

We will agree to differ because I have hard facts that would contradict that.

Senator Catherine Noone

It is amazing the facts that different sides of an argument come up with to serve their argument.

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

The Food Safety Authority of Ireland is responsible for ensuring that the labelling on food is accurate. If the data contained on the side of a pack are not correct, it would be an offence.

Senator Catherine Noone

I am not saying they are not correct.

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

In terms of hard facts, the nutritional information contained on the product label setting out food information for consumers is correct.

Senator Catherine Noone

I know it is correct but it can be interpreted differently.

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

If it is not correct-----

Senator Catherine Noone

It can be interpreted differently.

Mr. Kevin McPartlan

The amount of sugar is a black and white issue. That category would stand up to careful scrutiny.

Senator Catherine Noone

I have no doubt Mr. McPartlan would be able to give me any amount of information on it.

There are algorithms that exist online - I am back to the online issue - to target certain consumers, including algorithms that actively identify children online. Those same algorithms should be used to actively identify children and avoid advertising to them when it comes to high in fat, salt or sugar, HFSS, foods. Would that work well? I ask Ms Twomey to answer that question. I note the Advertising Standards Authority for Ireland deals with complaints and has a greater involvement in the online space than the other organisations.

Chairman

That will be the final question today.

Ms Orla Twomey

Technology and the ability of companies in this area are evolving all the time. Five years ago, those algorithms were not as developed as they are at present. There is a possibility to target and all advertising is targeted to some degree, whether it is online or offline. The voluntary food codes launched this year reference advertising online. More work could be done on that but from an online behavioural advertising point of view, there are restrictions about targeting advertisements at those aged under 13. I can provide more information on that.

Senator Catherine Noone

It is clearly an area on which much work is needed.

Chairman

The clerk to the committee will contact Ms Twomey and Mr. McPartlan to obtain the additional information the committee is seeking.

On behalf the joint committee, I thank the witnesses for their presentations today and for dealing with members' questions in such a comprehensive manner. Everything will be recorded in our report. We would appreciate if the witnesses could provide the information members requested.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.15 a.m. sine die.