Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs debate -
Wednesday, 10 Oct 2018

Tackling Childhood Obesity: Discussion (Resumed)

Chairman

I welcome all of the delegates to continue our hearings on the topic of tackling childhood obesity. We will hear presentations by the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government and the County and City Management Association, CCMA. I welcome Mr. Colin Ryan from the forward planning section of the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government and Ms Patricia Curran, assistant principal officer in the same Department. I welcome Ms Joan Martin, chief executive of Louth County Council, who is representing the CCMA. I welcome committee members and those watching the proceedings on Oireachtas TV.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. If, however, they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind members and delegates to turn off their mobile phones or switch them to flight mode because they interfere with the sound system and make it difficult for parliamentary reporters to report the proceedings of the meeting. Television coverage and Internet streaming might also be affected adversely. I advise the delegates that any submission or opening statement made to the committee will be published on its website after the meeting. After their presentation, there will be questions from members. I call Mr. Ryan to make his opening statement.

Mr. Colin Ryan

I am pleased to have the opportunity to meet members to assist the joint committee in its deliberations on the topic of tackling childhood obesity. I understand the committee, as part of its deliberations, wishes to discuss, in particular, two planning issues relevant to the topic, namely, the appropriate planning considerations related to the location of proposed fast-food outlets in the vicinity of school premises and the availability of public spaces for children's activities.

By way of introduction, it is important to state the overall thrust of national planning policy is to promote the development of good places in which to live, work and play. A key part of the place-making agenda is ensuring, through the planning processes, we take all necessary steps to encourage, facilitate and integrate physical activity for citizens of all ages and physical abilities and levels of mobility in the design of existing and future communities. In practical terms, one of the best ways to achievie this is by prioritising forms of development that benefit from good accessibility in terms of walking and cycling facilities and striving continually for the improvement of such facilities in both existing and newly developing areas. This is in the overall context of an increase in the national population of approximately 1 million by 2040, with the number of people aged 15 years or under predicted to continue to increase until the early 2020s and decline only slowly thereafter.

While national and strategic planning policy is set out in the national planning framework, regional economic and development strategies and local authority development plans, the key operational planning document that deals with the issues under consideration by the committee is the statutory guidelines for planning authorities for local area plans issued by the Minister in 2013. Section 5 of the guidelines offers advice on the structure and content of local area plans and sets out a range of policies that can be put in place to promote and facilitate active and healthy living patterns in local communities. They include policies on promoting walking and cycling as modes of transport; access to public open spaces and recreational and sports facilities; the proximity of new developments to sustainable travel modes; the provision of play areas; and the careful consideration of the appropriateness of the location of fast-food outlets in the vicinity of schools and parks.

A practical effect of the guidelines with regard to fast-food outlets is that consideration can be given to the appropriateness of their location in the vicinity of schools and parks, for example, in newly developing areas, while at the same time taking into account wider land-use considerations such as the clustering of uses in close proximity to each other to allow for access by foot or bicycle. With regard to the many schools located in or near existing developed town centres, however, the practical implications of restricting fast-food outlets in these circumstances need to be carefully considered in view of the mix of existing uses typically found in urban areas. Moreover, in focusing on limiting the exposure of schoolgoing children to the availability of fast food, there could be unintended consequences regarding the location of future schools in that they may be located in less central locations, with knock-on implications for promoting non-car accessibility.

In addition, planning policy on the location of fast-food outlets needs to be considered within the wider policy context of practical steps that can be taken to promote more widely and facilitate active and healthy living patterns by enhancing the scope for activities such as walking, cycling and sports and active leisure pursuits and their associated facilities. For example, ensuring effective pedestrian and cycle networks can develop between residential areas and between those areas and schools and locations where shops and local services are provided should be a priority. In reality, the development or even the retention of such links which are so essential in maximising physical activity can be highly contentious locally, to which many committee members may attest.

On the availability of public spaces for children's activities, our general planning policy approach has been and will continue to be one that actively promotes their provision. Over a long period planning policy has sought to support the delivery of a range of public spaces commensurate with the scale of development, from informal open spaces to regional parks that allow for a range of activities. Furthermore, in the light of an increase in the population, this means that the continued provision and enhancement of facilities and amenities for children and young people such as playgrounds, parks and sports grounds remains necessary. They will need to be maintained at similar levels for the foreseeable future. It also means that, with a significant proportion of future population growth to occur within or close to the current built-up footprint of settlements, it will be possible to maximise the use of existing facilities near where children and young people live through the provision of enhanced facilities.

A key planning issue is the integration of healthy living into the built environment. This allows for the informal incorporation of fitness into everyday life. To assist in achieving this objective, the Design Manual for Urban Roads and Streets, DMURS, has been produced. It provides practical guidance to assist in the design and development of active and safe neighbourhoods for walking and cycling.

In this regard, it is important to emphasise the need to integrate good, appropriate linkage for walking and cycling to public spaces, particularly those at the level that serve a town or large urban settlement, where more formal physical activities such as field sports are undertaken. This allows for children or young adults, as appropriate, to access these facilities without necessarily relying on the car.

From a planning perspective, a key consideration in promoting active and healthy lifestyles and physical activity and combating one of the causes of obesity is improving accessibility within our urban settlements for non-car-based modes of transport. At the same time, however, we have to recognise there are a range of uses which are appropriate for urban settlements in order for them to serve all members of the community. I am happy to take questions.

Ms Joan Martin

I thank the committee for the invitation extended to the City and County Management Association to address it in regard to the urgent issue of childhood obesity. I understand from our inquiries the committee is particularly interested in looking at ways in which the planning and development control system can assist, particularly in regard to the siting of takeaway and fast food outlets near schools and other places frequented by children. Having considered the wider roles of local government and where our plans and policies can assist in tackling issues around childhood obesity, I have decided to look at the topic not just from a control and regulation point of view, but also in the context of other areas such as the local economic and community plans and the Healthy Ireland plan, which is now produced by each council.

The making of county development plans is a key strategic function of local authorities, and is a reserved function of the elected members of a county or city council. The plans not only set the context and policies which govern planning applications but, at a more fundamental level, a development plan is described as “a spatial framework, which, while acknowledging wider social, economic and environmental trends, needs to focus on the 'big picture' planning issues, possibilities and considerations that will underpin how the development process in that area is to be structured in order to achieve the plan’s objectives for the wider community.” I suppose we are also talking about the current trendy phrase, "placemaking", and Mr. Ryan referred to making great places to live and work. Essentially, however, all this means that while a new development plan must conform to a whole series of legal requirements, as set out in planning and development and other legislation, as well as the guidelines to which Mr. Ryan referred, the plan is also about a vision for the particular city or county and about making that a great place to live, work and play. This allows councils to add their own flavour and priorities to their development plan. In the case of my own county, Louth was the first age friendly county in Ireland and our policies around the age friendly agenda are embedded in our development plan.

With regard to childhood obesity and the city or county development plan, I understand the committee is interested in planning law, the siting of fast food outlets and so on. Certainly, there has been a growing and vocal lobby advocating for the inclusion of bans on fast food outlets near schools via city and county development plans. That is at different stages in different counties and some of the plans, to which I will refer later, are quite recent, whereas, in my county, we are not due to begin reviewing our plan until the end of next year and all current plans are sitting waiting.

A number of county chief executives have expressed concern about such an approach, citing, in particular, concerns about the situation in a smaller village where the presence of a school might result in a total ban on such outlets in that village. However, a number of councils have already adopted development plans which contain restrictions. For example, South Dublin County Council has included an objective “to restrict the opening of new fast food-takeaway outlets in close proximity to schools so as to protect the health and well-being of school-going children", although this particular example does not set a specific distance. Dublin City Council has a policy to “safeguard the health of young people that no further fast food outlets should be permitted within 250 m of primary and secondary schools (not to apply to delicatessen and convenience stores), unless an evidence-based case is made by the applicant that the proposed development would be in the interests of the proper planning and development of the area.” Wexford has a more clear-cut statement that the development of hot food takeaways will be strictly controlled and a proliferation of this use will not be encouraged. It goes on to say that proposals for this type of development will not be permitted where it is within 200 m radius of educational establishments, which gives it a wider application.

Clearly, these examples show it is possible, within the provisions of existing legislation and guidelines, to include policies and objectives of the type being considered by the committee. At present, those policies included by councils are generally around fast food near schools but perhaps new guidelines or recommendations could be developed to offer advice about a range of policies that might be considered. As I mentioned, local government is in a pause period while we engage in the translation of the national planning framework, Project Ireland 2040, to the new regional plans. Following its adoption, all city and county councils will work on their development plans either to bring in variations or to bring in entirely new plans, which will have to reflect both Project Ireland 2040 and the regional, social and economic plans for their areas. Now is a very good time to consider new guidelines or to consider how issues around childhood obesity might be considered in the next round of development plans. I know the land use and transportation, LUTS, committee of the City and County Management Association, of which I am a member, would be willing to look at such a policy area and at the implications, given, as Mr. Ryan mentioned, there are both positive and negative implications. We would be more than willing to co-operate if the committee wishes to go down that road.

Moving to the other side, that is, the more positive action rather than the "big stick" action, in County Louth the LCDC, or local community development committee, which is a statutory committee, has produced its Healthy Ireland plan for the county. This is largely a subset of the overall statutory plan - the local economic and community plan for County Louth. Healthy Ireland is based on the premise that health and well-being is affected by all aspects of a person’s life, including education, housing, financial status and physical environment. The Healthy Ireland plan sets out to increase the proportion of people who are healthy at all stages of life, reduce health inequalities, protect the public from threats to health and well-being and create an environment where every individual and sector of society can play its part in achieving a healthy Louth.

Goal 4 of the Louth community plan is about health and well-being and is to be achieved by providing environments and conditions that support healthy, self-directed, fulfilled and purposeful lives. The Louth Healthy Ireland plan flows from national policy and objectives and it is about taking a positive and proactive approach to health and well-being, rather than using a regulatory approach, as would be the case in banning fast food outlets near schools. It is about encouraging and educating people to take responsibility for their health and well-being from a very early age. For example, the first objective is about active-friendly environments. The plan asserts that in creating active-friendly environments, cycle lanes, playgrounds, well-lit paths, and so on, local authorities will engage with local communities, schools and other stakeholders to plan facilities that are appropriate to the needs of the community. There are many examples of this. We have a greenway along the shore of Carlingford Lough, where the local schools regularly take the children out on bicycles. It is about getting results. In the communications and knowledge sharing priority of the plan, the aim is to link communications expertise and capacity across sectors to ensure consistent, complementary, cutting-edge, accessible and persuasive health and well-being communication strategies are developed and implemented in full.

For children and young people, the emphasis in the plan is on creating opportunities for increasing activity and exercise. There are also objectives in Louth around healthy eating, including plans to develop programmes to improve healthy eating for mothers-to-be, preconception, and for infants and children up to two years, along with an increase in breakfast clubs to offer a healthy breakfast to children from deprived backgrounds. We are aiming at a preconception level with our promotion of the healthy eating and healthy lifestyle message to mothers in order that children are born into that atmosphere. There is also an objective to provide healthy eating programmes in schools, youth facilities and sports organisations in order to increase the numbers of children and young people with a healthy weight.

As committee members can see, there is an option for local authorities to include policies and objectives around healthy living and healthy weights within the city or county development plan process. There are also other areas, including the Healthy Ireland plans, where local authorities, in collaboration with other agencies, including the HSE, are setting out to work together with the aim of having a healthier population in the years ahead. I suppose I am advocating a carrot rather than a stick approach.

I am delighted to have the opportunity to meet the committee this morning and, as always, the CCMA stands ready to listen to its recommendations and assist its work in any way possible.

Chairman

There is certainly food for thought in both contributions. One of the most important things to observe in terms of the built environment from Mr. Ryan's perspective is that for the most part, certainly from my community's perspective as a new developing community in Fingal in north Dublin, the vast majority of the towns and villages in my constituency are developing at a rapid rate. This presents a wonderful opportunity for local authorities to approach it from a development perspective and add in public open spaces, recreation spaces, adult exercise equipment, playgrounds and sports campuses. It is much more difficult to do this in more established communities. In my capacity as Chairman of this committee, I was recently asked to present awards alongside David Gillick at a youth club in Dublin 1. The event, which was sponsored by a health insurance firm and another private firm, was very beneficial to the children in question. One of the remarks I heard from the teenagers was that there were very little city centre-based recreation facilities for them, which is a fair observation. Obviously, Dublin city was developed at a time when pleasure parks were all the rage as opposed to running tracks, swimming pools and so forth. It is a challenge for local authorities to build in facilities such as public parks, even on a small scale. It is unlikely that a city centre development would accommodate a public open space of the size of Mountjoy Square or St. Stephen's Green but there are options. If one looks at what Dublin City Council is doing to Mountjoy Square, one can see that what the council is trying to achieve with that public space, which has been a no-go area in the past, particularly after nightfall. This is a positive development and it is nice to see the city approaching it from that perspective. That is one of the observations I would make based on first-hand experience from Dublin 1 residents. Young people had in mind what was on their doorstep to aid them in pursuing a healthy lifestyle in terms of physical exercise.

The "no-fry" zone approach some local authorities are considering is a cure rather than prevention. The cure is to build through the local authority planning system opportunities for people, young and old, to avail of physical exercise. The prevention element involves the actions some local authorities are taking to prevent fast food outlets from opening in close proximity to schools. I accept both principles and I do not dismiss the witnesses' softer approach, with which I do not necessarily disagree. It would be helpful if we developed central guidelines rather than having individual local authorities approach the matter on a county basis. It would be helpful if the CCMA, in tandem with the Department, were to develop a policy on this in the development guidelines. A centralised approach would be more beneficial than having this done by individual councils.

I have gone through what steps the various local authorities have taken on this, including Fingal County Council. One of my local authority members, Councillor Tom O'Leary, proposed the introduction of a "no-fry" zone in Fingal County Council based on the Wexford example that was raised at this committee a number of months ago. The proposal has gone to the appropriate strategic policy committee in the council for review. I accept that it is not possible to close a fast food outlet. One would even have to define what a fast food outlet is and review what a convenience store is in terms of what it is selling. I accept, therefore, that this approach has pros and cons.

Would it not be better to empower local authorities to restrict the opening hours of such facilities, regardless of where they are located, whether within 200 m or 300 m or whatever other arbitrary figure we choose, to ensure they are not open at lunchtime? As somebody who works in a village on Mondays and Fridays when I am not in the Oireachtas, I see school uniforms outside the chipper, which is less than 100 m from my office door. It is quite depressing because it is more than a mile from the school but the students seem to have time to get to and from the chipper. This happens every day. Those children are then going home and having a full meal as well. Would it be better to approach this issue from the point of view of opening hours?

Mr. Colin Ryan

We would be capable of restricting opening hours as part of a developed management decision. Traditionally, restricting opening hours of fast food outlets might have been related to anti-social behaviour that occurred late at night. Conditions on fast food outlets or takeaways are regularly imposed such as stipulating that they must close by 11 p.m or 11.30 p.m. There is certainly planning restriction with the principle per se. The only issue relating to the example cited by the Chairman is that we cannot go back in time.

Chairman

Of course.

Mr. Colin Ryan

This relates to new development. Broadly speaking, what we are talking about here is restricting new development. If it is an established use, it has rights that cannot be taken away.

I take the Chairman's broad point about urban environments. There are different levels. This might involve making intensive use of existing facilities and re-doing them, as is being done with Mountjoy Square. The other issue concerns links, getting people to these locations safely, be it by walking or cycling, and looking at those links to encourage people to access what exists. I take the point that Dublin city centre is not awash with open space.

Chairman

If there are restrictions associated with anti-social behaviour that mandate that facilities must close at a certain time, is it possible for local authorities to enforce that because enforcement is often the problem at local authority level? I was a member of a local authority for just short of eight years. Enforcing the decisions of the planning authority was often a major problem, never mind the wishes of the members. Do all local authorities feel as empowered as others? Perhaps they do not exercise their authority in that way. I cannot speak for every other local authority but my experience of Dublin City Council and Fingal County Council was that they approach this issue differently. I accept the existence of the right referred to by Mr. Ryan. The difficulty is that if a fast food outlet is located right next to a community school, as is the case in my constituency, it will open for breakfast and will be open throughout the day. As part of the cure and prevention approach to which I referred, can we use a statutory instrument or regulation to order such facilities not to open between noon and 1 p.m. or 2 p.m. or whatever time the local school has its lunch hour?

Ms Joan Martin

I would be happy to take that question. The restrictions we have on opening hours are similar to those that apply to building sites. Opening hours often apply when housing developments are being constructed.

Those kinds of restrictions are well established. There is long-established precedent, custom and practice so, if one went into court, one would be very confident. I suppose the first question to have in mind, if a new type of measure is introduced, is how will a court approach it and whether a court will feel it was proper planning and development.

In terms of enforcement, in reality, the most likely way a council would act on something like that is if it got a complaint. For example, if the principal of a school wrote in to say, "This place is supposed to be closed at lunchtime and it was open yesterday", we are legally obliged to investigate the complaint. I would point out that the process of planning enforcement is long and tortuous, and it is not a quick-fix solution. If somebody complains about something today and we then write out and say the business is not complying with its planning permission, and the business willingly and voluntarily changes its behaviour, that is fine. However, if we end up having to go to court, it is a very long process. With a new and very different type of condition, where somebody might say we were interfering with economic activity, or some other issue like that, it would be have to be tested.

Certainly, local authorities take their planning enforcement role seriously and we receive a very large number of complaints. If we end up having to go through a legal process with all of those, it is an enormous and costly undertaking. In some cases, it takes years and we get a court order in the end, but, the next thing, they are at it again, and we are back dealing with it again. I am currently dealing with a case that I have dealt with many times in the past. It can be very difficult. However, very often, if we write out to somebody under a certain condition to say we have a complaint, that can be the end of it. It depends on how willing people are to accept and comply with the conditions.

Chairman

Ms Martin said a complaint is required. Local authorities are now empowered to do a huge amount-----

Ms Joan Martin

No, I did not mean it is required, just that it is what we deal with most of the time. Very often, our people notice something on the ground but, realistically, we would not go around policing the opening hours of takeaways. Therefore, a lot of what we do is either in response to complaints or something I or another member of staff would notice when out and about.

Mr. Colin Ryan

In regard to the Chairman's direct question, there are a couple of issues that need to be borne in mind with regard to enforcement, as Ms Martin pointed out. First, there has to be a condition of permission and it has to be clear, reasonable and enforceable. If there is no condition of permission in regard to the opening hours of a particular facility, then no condition has been breached. The second issue to bear in mind, as Ms Martin pointed out, is that planning enforcement is ultimately a legal process, a process that goes to the courts, and as it is a criminal conviction that is in place, it requires a criminal level of evidence in order for a judge to ultimately make a decision. Therefore, enforcement of the condition is a capability but there must be a clear, enforceable condition that is clearly stated. It cannot just be something that is valid or useful; there must be a breach of planning for it to be enforced.

Chairman

That is probably the issue we are going to come across, in that it is not possible for us to restrict through, for argument's sake, legislation being passed by the Houses of the Oireachtas because we cannot restrict the operating hours of a facility that has a grant of permission.

Mr. Colin Ryan

If the Oireachtas so decided, and it is its right to do so, that would be going forward and it cannot act retrospectively, as far as I understand it.

Chairman

That is my understanding as well. Thank you for responding to my queries. I call Deputy Neville.

Deputy Tom Neville

I thank the witnesses for coming in. First, with regard to the specifics in each county development plan, is there a suggestion there would be a uniform statement across every county development plan in regard to what is a fast food outlet? How realistic is it to try to uniformly apply, across the board, what defines a fast food outlet? Are there specific criteria? This follows on from the Chairman's line of questioning. When I was on the local authority, I was given guidelines in regard to planning but the way those guidelines were interpreted by the executive and the councillors often clashed. Will a specific directive be given in this regard to guide people? As was said, anomalies arise all the time as economic environments change. The witnesses said that a major outlet within a town might create footfall at certain times of day which others might benefit from, and vice versa. In rural Ireland, this could have an adverse effect and I do not want to throw the baby out with the bath water. It is a question of trying to find the right balance. I would be glad to hear the witnesses' comments.

Mr. Colin Ryan

There is guidance in this regard in that it can be taken into consideration in a local area plan. It is a reserved function of the local members to make a development plan. It is their function and their plan, acting within the legislation that is in place, and they will take account of local parameters. National guidance will always be more general, although it can be quite specific in regard to certain things. However, on this matter there are a series of unintended consequences. Uses exist within towns and villages, such as in regard to takeaways that people access in the course of their daily business. To restrict that is something that would have to be taken into consideration by the local members when looking at the proper planning and sustainable development of the area.

With regard to definition, there is no planning definition of a takeaway. What is a takeaway? Broadly, one can have a colloquial definition but that is not a legal definition. The closest definition is that it is for the sale of hot food for consumption off the premises. Ultimately, that is a takeaway and that is a basic point. I do not mean to be obstructive but-----

Deputy Tom Neville

Equally, somebody could walk to the local shop and buy confectionary. Does this defeat the purpose?

Mr. Colin Ryan

For that matter, a local shop, as an ancillary use to its activities of selling newspapers and chocolate, can sell hot food, just so long as it is ancillary.

Deputy Tom Neville

I have reservations about taking a nanny state approach to this in that we could throw the baby out with the bath water, particularly in rural areas, although it might be different in city areas. However, a rural area could have a local supermarket with a takeaway beside it, depending on the definition of a takeaway. One footfall creates the other, and it is all integrated, which is the way local environments seem to be going. I do not know if there is one vast solution to it. As Mr. Ryan said, there is no real definition of what constitutes a takeaway, or what constitutes a healthy or an unhealthy takeaway.

Mr. Colin Ryan

Planning is about land use and about the built environment. It absolutely has implications for healthy living and movement, and so on, but, as a strict approach, it is dealing with land use. At this moment in time, a shop can include, as part of its ancillary use, the sale of hot food.

Deputy Tom Neville

Is there anything in the planning guidelines that distinguishes each different type of restaurant? I believe there may have been in the past.

Mr. Colin Ryan

A restaurant is a slightly different thing.

Deputy Tom Neville

That is what I mean. While I am getting quite technical, is there anything in the planning legislation that distinguishes different types of restaurants, for example, with one being a takeaway type and another a sit-down type?

Mr. Colin Ryan

The key issue is whether it is for the sale of food for consumption off the premises. That is the test, as I understand it. It may be that people can go in and sit down, but if its daily work is for the sale of hot food for consumption off the premises, that has been seen as being a takeaway because, by definition, people are taking away food from the premises for consumption off the premises.

Deputy Tom Neville

Are there different planning guidelines for both?

Mr. Colin Ryan

Not necessarily. I can think of a restaurant that could be defined as having takeaway food or fast food as well because one could either be sitting down or taking away.

Planning approval is decided on a case-by-case basis. The other premise is primarily as to its function. Does it have a sit-down area? Is seating included as part of the development? Is there no seating? If not, then by definition it is a take-away.

Senator Fintan Warfield

My questions are on cycling so they are mainly for Mr. Ryan. The first issue I want to raise is the accessibility of public open spaces and recreational spaces. Chairman, with respect, I almost laughed out loud when he referenced private leisure parks considering the Land Development Agency has been designed to sell public land to private developers.

On cycling, if we design roads with young people in mind then all of us will reap rewards and be able to commute in the city. I live in Inchicore and I cycle to Leinster House most days. Does Mr. Ryan think that we are doing enough at a national level to promote cycling as a mode of transport?

Mr. Colin Ryan

Broadly speaking, cycling is an issue. The improvement of infrastructure is ongoing at present. Obviously the infrastructure can be improved and assisted. From a planning point of view, we are looking to support that by using the Design Manual for Urban Roads and Streets, DMURS. The DMURS document is very useful as it has brought forward standards for people and shows them ways to assist other modes of transport be it pedestrian or cycling. Infrastructure can be improved and should be improved as part of the broader premise of designing urban roads and streets but it is not part of my departmental responsibility in terms of funding.

Ms Joan Martin

There are considerable opportunities for local authorities to gain funding for cycleways. For example, the INTERREG programme provides funding, on a cross-Border basis, for a modal shift. There is a major cycleway from Omeath in County Louth to Newry in County Down that will ultimately allow people to cycle from Carlingford in County Louth to near Belfast in County Antrim via various canal ways and so on. There are also funding opportunities for cycleways that are over 20 km long. Off-road cycling is an important way forward. Certainly, we provide many cycle lanes on roads in urban areas but many people would like completely segregated cycleways rather than cycleways along a road. We have mixtures of both types of cycleways around the country.

The proliferation of cycleways will not happen overnight. I am certain that the increasing provision of cycleways is a major part of the plan for all local authorities, be they for leisure purposes, for modal shift purposes or to provide access to schools. Applications for urban and rural regeneration have just been submitted and my local authority had received at least one application that is very much about connectivity for children in a town to gain access to schools by way of walking and cycling. The issue is very much on the agenda. We are moving in that direction but improvements will not happen overnight. I am definite that there has been a major policy shift in that direction. There are very welcome opportunities, on a regular basis, to apply for funding, which is excellent.

Senator Fintan Warfield

The answer to my next question matters. We are talking about young people choosing to cycle and parents allowing them to choose cycling as a mode of school transport. Is there any road user more at risk in a city than a cyclist?

Mr. Colin Ryan

By and large, there are issues. A cyclist is a vulnerable road user. We are discussing access to schools etc. and road safety for all should be considered. As Ms Martin has said, local authorities have considered access point-to-point. One must consider small-scale interventions within the built environment that might encourage folk to walk or cycle. I take the point made by the Senator that cyclists are vulnerable on the road, and I know that myself. That is a fact of life. Safety needs to be dealt with through small-scale interventions in localities thus encouraging folk to cycle with their children or for their children to travel to school on their own either along a slightly wider footpath, on crossings or through housing estates, which might include the opening up of access points in housing estates-----

Senator Fintan Warfield

Yes.

Mr. Colin Ryan

-----that traditionally might not have existed. All of that is a broader issue called permeability in planning. That aspect of the urban environment has been considered over the years. In south Dublin that aspect was considered for a series of projects and Ms Martin has said the same about other projects in towns. It is about considering the links. The location of schools is fixed but where the children come from is not particularly fixed but there is a radius. From the point of view of a local authority or council, it does not take much to identify the points of vulnerability and, having identified them, ways to improve them can be considered.

Ms Joan Martin

For the past number of years I have been a member of the joint ministerial committee on road safety. We examine the figure every quarter for the number of deaths and injuries on our roads and obviously cyclists have been a particular worry in recent times.

The promotion of safety for cyclists is a big priority for the Road Safety Authority, RSA. Recently the RSA changed its policy and called for drivers of vehicles when driving on our roads to leave a distance of an arm's width between them and a cyclist or cyclists. The RSA will continue with its long-term safety campaign to make all road users more aware of vulnerable road users like pedestrians and cyclists. There is no doubt that segregated or dedicated cycle lanes and off-road cycle lanes where cyclists are completely away from traffic are probably the way to go as much as possible. Unfortunately, it is not always possible to ensure that happens in the built environment.

Senator Fintan Warfield

I respect that view. The Chairman mentioned that our cities are old and there are bottlenecks so one cannot facilitate cyclists. When I cycle to work in Leinster House I feel the most safe when I cycle on the cycle lane around St. Stephen's Green because it is much wider than elsewhere. The city of Brussels in Belgium has contraflow cycle lanes all over the place. I feel their conversations are probably moving towards air quality and having completely separate roads. For a cyclist the quality of air on the streets is as bad as if one drives a car and one inhales those fumes through the vents and windows of one's car. If one chooses to cycle one should be protected from fumes as well. That is where the conversation here should be but we do not even have dedicated cycle lanes or contraflow cycle lanes. We need to focus minds on that front.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I thank the witnesses for their attendance this morning.

As I served on a council for about 18 months, I know that when it comes to the passing of a local area plan it is the executive function of councillors to give their approval. Even with the best will in the world of the executive, they can decide to reject, include or remove certain aspects of the plan. That situation can leave some town development plans unbalanced. In terms of the role played by the witnesses in setting up the national planning framework, councillors work at that level. Ms Martin has mentioned that she is a member of the joint ministerial committee on road safety. How does one ensure that the end product is not distorted?

What about when there is a change of usage? Originally a town development plan might have included a shop or a boutique but then someone decides to install a fast-food outlet. I have seen how town development plans have been written. A premises could tick all of the boxes, by which I mean a venue can be used for commercial use or as an hotel when a town has an urban centre, which in small towns and villages will not be 100 miles away from the local schools. As a unit will have a plethora of alternative uses, straight away the proposal is approved even though one wants, with the best will in the world, to have everything at a remove from younger persons and at the correct distance but the plan gets diluted as things go along. Have the witnesses experienced that situation? How do county managers prevent that from happening?

Ms Joan Martin

The reality is that if the members of the council decide, as they did on a number of councils, that there are to be no takeaways within 200 m, 400 m or whatever distance from a school, then the executive must ensure that every aspect of the plan reflects that policy the council has adopted. The Deputy is talking about the matrix that is set out which shows what is open for consideration in all of the different zones. If the original draft plan is now in conflict with the policy that the council has adopted, the staff will have to go back and ensure that if there is to be no takeaway in this particular area then it is not open for consideration. The plan cannot be in conflict with itself across its breadth but as we have said earlier, it is not a simple matter and there is the whole issue of ancillary use where something is permitted for development means and another use can also be allowed as long as it is ancillary. It is a complicated area and one size does not fit all. If it could always be dealt with in terms of a local plan area, the particular circumstances of a particular town or village could always be taken into account, but we would not go down to the level of doing local plan areas for every single town and village. It is not easy. Who knows what might happen with these plans? They could be challenged or tested at some stage along the way. It is not simple or a cut and dried matter to decide that land will be zoned for industrial or residential purposes. It is a slightly fuzzy area and is not black and white at all.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I thoroughly agree that it is not black and white because I have seen it in operation and it is difficult. I am looking at the new infrastructure that might be put in and I return to Mr. Ryan on that. When we are looking at building roads and Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, is awarding funding contracts, the delivery agent is the local county council. In respect of the delivery of brand new roads, I refer to the N63 in Galway, where €8.9 million has been spent on doing a particular section of about 2.5 km to 3 km in length and it is brilliant. The road has been widened and realigned and a walkway and cycle path have even been put in but we forgot to put lights on it. This is a suburban area of Galway city and when people come home in the evenings they cannot go out walking on it in the evening because it is dark for six months of the year and yet we are trying to promote people being active. The local people had lobbied the council and TII quite heavily to put in the infrastructure to facilitate the residents going out to walk in the evening. Is that not something that should be looked at nationally going forward? When we are putting new infrastructure in place that goes through local towns and villages should we not put in the infrastructure to get people active and moving as well? That was a particular example of where it could have been done on a brand new road. What does Mr. Ryan think about that?

Mr. Colin Ryan

As for urban towns and villages in a broad sense and the point the Deputy makes, the N63 is presumably a national primary route provided for under particular legislation. I presume that details around lighting should come as part of the broad premise but it depends on where the road is because national primary routes might not all be lit as the Deputy is aware. In urban areas they generally are lit so that might be something to look at. It depends on the location of these projects and what their function is. The function of a national primary route is to move large amounts of traffic nationally and a local route is for moving small amounts of traffic locally, and I mean that in a broad sense. That is commensurate to access for walking, cycling and so on. Broadly speaking, maybe it should be looked at in respect of where this infrastructure is going in and I know that by and large, urban areas are lit. They might be improved from time to time but by and large that is the case.

On the Deputy's previous point, the development plan is for a framework of development and on uses and zoning. There is generally a flexibility on the type of uses that could be looked at, which allows the local authority to make a decision that does not contravene the development plan. In a town centre a range of uses will go in such as hotels, shops, takeaways, schools and other housing and the local authority is given the capability to make a call on that from a development management point of view. The other issue is that then there is a development management point of view, namely, in the decision making around development applications and that has to be dealt with separately to the plan. While it takes cognisance of the plan, as Ms Martin said, that might be appealed to An Bord Pleanála. Those issues have to be taken into consideration in making the plan. It is flexible enough and clear enough in terms of its intent but it has the operational capability on a day-to-day operational basis to make decisions that are in line with the proper plans for sustainable development in the area and in line with the zoning objective.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I take on board what Mr. Ryan has said about the urban areas but if we go back to the road issue that is exactly my point because in the rural areas where there are upgrades it is not happening. It is something that needs to be looked at by the Department because it was a missed opportunity in this area for the simple reason that the infrastructure was put in place for people to walk and cycle on but the infrastructure to facilitate people walking and cycling when they come home from work was not put in place. If we are trying to depopulate areas such as Galway city and make it more attractive to live out in the more rural areas it is imperative that we have the key infrastructure in place to facilitate and entice people to move out to the country.

There was another issue with greenways and the executive role of councils and of county managers. I wonder about the planning process on a national level. Is there a framework document for it? Mr. Ryan referred to promoting walking and cycling, the accessibility of public spaces and proximity to new developments and he says that Louth is an age friendly county but is there a matrix for county managers to say that they should be setting county targets for being age friendly, moving more people, being more accessible or being more disability orientated? Is the opportunity there to pick up the gauntlet for as long as the county development plan is in place that the county will move to improve certain aspects within the plan? In this area I am looking at greenways. Are they ever prioritised?

Mr. Colin Ryan

There is nothing stopping a local authority from doing that.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

All right.

Mr. Colin Ryan

Ms Martin might know more than that.

Ms Joan Martin

I am generally not a fan of a one-size-fits-all approach because it is important that local circumstances are dealt with and at any given point in time, depending on who is elected to the council, different councillors will come on board. It can be seen that when there is a new council, it has new priorities. At the moment I have a couple of councillors who are particularly interested in disability issues so that will inevitably become more of a priority. We were the first age friendly county but the Deputy will be pleased to know that every county in Ireland is now age friendly. If I may, I will contradict what the Deputy said about encouraging people to move out to rural areas.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

Yes, go on.

Ms Joan Martin

Project Ireland 2040 is doing the exact opposite. It is all about intensifying development within the existing urban footprint and the councils will be obliged to build more and more within the existing footprint of towns. As far as I know, none of the greenways in rural areas will be lit. There are a number of issues to do with that. One is that if someone is driving on a road, the issue of moving from lit areas to dark areas is difficult for drivers. When drivers get to the edge of a town it is better for them to go back into darkness and not to have odd lights here and there because it disturbs their night vision and there are road safety issues around that. There is also the issue of the cost of public lighting because it is one of the big bill items for local authorities. We are trying to reduce the amount of public lighting in order to help Ireland reach its energy efficiency targets. Therefore, the more public lighting there is, the more energy that is being used all of the time. I refer to the greenway I mentioned earlier on Carlingford Lough and we would certainly not want to see that lit because there would be light pollution.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I was talking about the road infrastructure.

Ms Joan Martin

I do not know the particular roads.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

It is a different issue entirely. I do not mean to have a tit-for-tat but it disappointing to hear Ms Martin confirm that Project Ireland 2040 is all about depopulating rural Ireland and putting people into cities. That is-----

Ms Joan Martin

That is not what I said-----

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

It is the opposite of what I had said.

Mr. Colin Ryan

While we are not here today to talk about that element, there is an issue with population in rural areas. Project Ireland 2040 has policies relating to aspects of rural regeneration. Ms Martin is correct when she referred to 1 million people having to go somewhere. A broad parameter within the programme is that these people, by and large, should move to urban areas because that is where the services and supports are. Those locations might well be in towns, villages and smaller settlements, which might be deemed to be more rural in nature. This is just a broader point.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

This is an issue for another day. We could get into it and then we would be into the Pale, crossing the Shannon and on to the west. That is not something Mr. Ryan or I want to get into today.

Deputy Lisa Chambers

On planning and fast food issues, it is easier to reject a planning application for a Supermacs or a McDonalds outlet. In Castlebar, County Mayo, there are delis beside the secondary schools where children can get chips, chicken rolls and sausage rolls, which are really unhealthy. The deli counters are full at lunchtime. The students are also buying bottles of Coke, or whatever else, with that meal. How does one go about counteracting that from a planning perspective? There are deli counters in filling stations and shops and delis have expanded to deal with the demand in local schools. I do not see how rejecting a planning application for a Supermacs down the road will make a significant difference to that.

I have a question on cycleways and greenways. It was my experience when I was on Mayo County Council that it was difficult to get a footpath or a greenway over the line. There appears always to be a reason not do it. When trying to build a footpath in a village to connect additional houses in order that people can walk to mass or to the football ground, I am given explanations such as the land required a compulsory purchase order, or that others will not agree to it, it will be costly, or the council does not have the staff to do it. It is just "Yada, yada, yada". There are always many reasons not to do it. It is so difficult to get these projects over the line and they do not appear to be a priority for the local authorities.

Ms Martin made the point about councillors changing every five years, which is a challenge. Equally, the chief executive officers may change every seven years. There is often rotation of staff between different sections within the council and, for example, the walking officer this year may not be the walking officer next year. What are the witnesses' thoughts on longer term planning, for example when the executive changes or when the councillors rotate, so the plan does not get lost?

Reference was made to Project Ireland 2040. I have reservations about that plan because we are not delivering in 2018, never mind in 2040. There needs to be a longer term perspective from the local authorities with fewer excuses and improved delivery. When they are approached by people with ideas, they should not be thinking of reasons not to implement them. They should only consider solutions. In my experience it has been challenging to build simple, basic walkways. I am not talking about top-end footpaths that one might have in the main street of a town. Even gravel footpaths to the left or right of a thoroughfare, which are inexpensive, are proving very difficult to secure.

Mr. Colin Ryan

On the Deputy's point about delicatessens, a shop is defined as selling something that is ancillary. This is defined as a shop and this is just the fact at the current time. The Deputy's point is well made about the scale of the delis, but if the deli counter is ancillary to the purpose of the premises, which is to sell-----

Deputy Lisa Chambers

The deli is often bigger than the shop.

Mr. Colin Ryan

That is slightly different, but, broadly, if it is less than one half or one third of the size of the floor space, the key issue is the broad selling area. If it is ancillary then it is a shop by definition and that is covered by legislation. The purpose of that was to look at other capable uses that shops have. This definition is a way to provide for the capability around the use.

With regard to walking and cycling, the Deputy is correct that there are issues and they need to be worked on more. This is part of the reason we look to support towns and villages also. The Department has the urban regeneration and development fund and part of this should be devoted to generating those types of links within towns and villages, excepting Deputy Rabbitte's view that there is a broader issue external to a settlement outside of the 50,000 population zone of a small settlement. That needs to be thought about. In urban areas work has been done in this regard.

It is worth pointing out that people oppose access and capability on a corollary. It is not just down to the executive, lack of money or the lack of compulsory purchase orders.

Deputy Lisa Chambers

My experience is that if there is push back from one or two landowners, the local authority will not go there and thinks it will be too difficult. My village is 10 km outside Castlebar, which has a large urban population. I would cycle that distance if there was somewhere safe to do so; it is not a long distance to cycle. There seems to be no vision to connect towns and villages. Many counties do not have rural transport and all a person might have is his or her car. We talk of reducing emissions, having a greener environment, tackling obesity and changing our culture around how we transport from A to B. The basics should include giving people a safe place by which to travel. It is almost as though the authorities are saying, "Oh great, we have something on which to rely as to why we cannot do it". I do not believe that my local authority is any different; every local authority is the same. The priority is always the same - roads. We have not changed the mindset to demonstrate that cycleways and greenways are equally important. This is a statement rather than a question. I thank Mr. Ryan for his answers to my earlier queries.

Ms Joan Martin

My biggest priority day-to-day is probably the financial survival of the council. We are not any different but Louth County Council has a lot of vision and lots of long-term plans. We have major long-term plans for cycling. My husband described me the other night as a "pragmatist". I do not know if this is complimentary coming from a husband, but that is what I am. Realistically, the pragmatist would tell the committee that there is a vision, but, as the chief executive, I know that I will not see all of it delivered. While I am there, I will deliver. I might not deliver the bit that the Deputy is looking for. I might deliver the bit that another Deputy is looking for and then Deputy Chambers might not be happy, but we are always striving to deliver. We never lose an opportunity. There were announcements this week on the funding for towns and villages. In my county, a number of those applications, which were made in collaboration with communities, were for footpaths of the kind Deputy Chambers has mentioned, which link bits of missing footpaths and so on. The effort is made on every occasion and we take every chance we can. It is just that there is always so much to be done and only so many resources to do it, be they financial or otherwise. Most councils have long-term visions for measures such as cycleways and I want to extend it in my county from the Border at Carlingford Lough all the way to the border with County Meath at Drogheda. This, however, will take-----

Deputy Lisa Chambers

A long time.

Ms Joan Martin

-----a long time, but that does not mean that we do not have the drive and the ambition to do it. We will do it. Yesterday I spoke with the OPW. There is a major project to be done in Dundalk costing approximately €40 million to prevent us from being washed away because of climate change. As part of that embankment to protect the town, a walkway and a cycleway will be incorporated into the design. Every chance that comes up, we grab it. We are as frustrated as the Deputy. Of course we want to do everything. One's ambition is for the county that one serves. In my case, it is my own county so my ambition is doubled, but one can only do what one can do. The ambition is there. We are not setting out to frustrate councillors.

The cycleways were to be done without compulsory purchase orders but I have ended up with bits of cycleways along the sea shore or on the road because, despite the best efforts of everybody, including elected members, farmers were not persuaded. We use compulsory purchase orders quite a lot in Louth. It is a longer and potentially more expensive way of doing things. As I often say to the council, I do my very best to do as much as I can with the resources I have available and with the opportunities that arise. Councils always have their eyes on all kinds of opportunities. We would not miss a chance to apply for funding for cycling or walking. We are always trying to get as much as we can for our counties.

Deputy Lisa Chambers

The message is probably that better resourced councils will deliver more.

Ms Joan Martin

We never have enough of those.

Deputy Lisa Chambers

Message received.

Ms Joan Martin

I am more than 40 years in the public service and I have gone through four sets of ups and downs and recessions. Even in the very best of times, there is always more demand for money, resources and time than we ever have and we always do our best in whatever circumstances we find ourselves.

Chairman

I welcome Deputy Louise O'Reilly. I have one question on foot of the contributions by Deputies Rabbitte and Chambers. Mr. Ryan mentioned permeability. As I am sure he will be aware, there are always conflicting views when building a new estate in an existing community. One of the main issues in my local authority, particularly in my old electoral ward, is where an estate is added on to an existing development but the main road is not upgraded. If one thinks of a linear development with housing along the road and a development at the back, the permeability is not there. There is a deliberate attempt by the councillors to limit access to the main road directly through the existing linear development. They route it around the road. They might call it a distributor road. It will come out at a particular point, which might be a few hundred metres from where the existing houses are located but there is no footpath linking the new road to the existing footpath network. I wish it were only new developments but it is not. I am referring to what are often ten-year old, 15-year old or 20-year old developments.

The councillors have the objective of limiting the ability of the planners to put in a footpath access point. In certain instances, they might even close an access point. It defies all logic, apart from when the objective is to address anti-social behaviour. The greater good often has to be considered in these circumstances. My question was about permeability and the ability of a local authority. Perhaps in such instances the overarching perspective should overrule the perspective of one or two individuals on something and permeability should become a permanent element. Otherwise we are spending public moneys, trying to facilitate access often through compulsory purchase orders. I can name one which I am sure Deputy O'Reilly, my constituency colleague, is very much aware of on the Feltrim Road, where the owner of a small private house is refusing to facilitate a footpath which would benefit hundreds of houses. Perhaps that was an observation rather than a question. An overarching approach is needed.

Mr. Colin Ryan

The Chairman has touched on the nub of the issue in urban development. I accept Deputy's Rabbitte's point that when one is outside an urban settlement, there are different parameters and considerations. At the root of the matter is the question of whether the issue is the promotion of permeability, which includes the linking of what might be seen as back-to-back housing estates or the linking of a housing estate to a town or village centre or something like that. It is a general observation that it poses great difficulties for the local authority and planners with regard to its promotion. It comes down to what I was trying to get at in my opening statement, which is the basic issue of linkage and infrastructure that allow people to move around the place more easily.

Senator Warfield pointed out that cyclists are vulnerable road users because they are forced onto larger roads where there is traffic. These smaller links are needed and usable. Other Departments have looked at small-scale interventions around that and there are serious ramifications. The committee might reflect on how that could be supported. From a planning point of view, it is supported. It has always been, and continues to be, supported. From a bluntly practical point of view and from a local democracy point of view, local councillors are faced with a difficult decision to make.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I will be a small bit parochial to illustrate a broader issue. In this instance, I am sure the Chairman will not object because I believe he shares the concerns I have. Fingal County Council has an objective regarding the location of fast-food outlets. I fully accept the point that was made earlier about local shops being turned into what are effectively fast-food outlets. What is the difference between a chip and a wedge? The lines get blurred. Aggressive marketing techniques are employed by fast-food outlets. Fingal County Council has an objective. It has put its own flavour on that objective, which can be overlooked.

The Chairman will be more than acutely aware of an issue in Skerries because I am sure he has been involved just as I have. In that case, objections have been lodged against the location of a fast-food outlet. In the context of A Healthy Weight for Ireland, the obesity action plan, and, notwithstanding what was said about cycleways, this is right beside a school. While the objectives are included in the local development plan, they can be ignored. There does not seem to be any push to develop more stringent guidelines. There does not seem to be any focus on ensuring that objective becomes a reality. We can talk about things that we might be able to do into the future, things that cost a huge amount to build, and whether to use a compulsory purchase order. The building of cycleways is extremely important but, in the intervening time, while we await the funding for cycleways and a decision on a compulsory purchase order, the objectives are still being bypassed. This happened in Wicklow, Fingal and other areas as well. If there is an objective in the local development plan, how can we ensure it is implemented, particularly where it relates to the siting of fast-food outlets and drive-through outlets within close proximity of schools? The example I have given is also on a dangerous bend but I will not get into that in the context of the obesity strategy. It is right beside a school. Fingal County Council has objectives under the Healthy Ireland plan. It says all the right things but how can we make sure that translates into practical action? How can we ensure, as a community, that the proposals reflected in the local development plan are turned into reality for the kids who are in the school?

Ms Joan Martin

The chief executive can only grant planning permission in accordance with the county development plan. That is a legal fact. Much depends on how it is worded in the county development plan and whether it becomes a material contravention. Strictly speaking, the county development plan governs decisions on planning applications. That is how it is but perhaps I was not clear on it earlier.

I would caution against an idea that the county development plan is the solution to every problem and that it provides the space where one can solve all these problems. As I stated in my opening statement, there are other instruments that also must be used. In general terms, so many takeaways are there already. We discussed earlier this issue of ancillary uses, etc. Apart from the potential downsides for small towns and villages of restrictions that are black and white, I feel that sometimes we are trying to use the county development plan to do things that in law it was never meant to do. As Mr. Ryan stated earlier, it is largely about spatial planning. While one might put objectives about health and other matters into the plan, it is not its primary purpose. That is the difficulty.

In broad terms, a planning application decision has to be made in accordance with the development plan. If the committee looks at the four examples I gave, the wording is entirely different. How they are put into the plan and where they are put, and their status within the plan, could be entirely different. It is just not black and white. There is not a way of making it simple or straightforward to necessarily achieve the kind of objective that the members here would like to think it could.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

In A Healthy Weight for Ireland, one of the action points states that guidelines and support materials should be developed "for those working in developing the built environment for urban development and planning in relation to reducing the obesogenic environment". Practically speaking, how can that be reflected? If the aspiration is reflected in the development plan, how can that practical advice be translated?

We are dealing with this in Skerries. The people I live beside cannot understand why, if it is in the development plan, that cannot be translated into practical action. Where it is open to interpretation, should it be black and white so there is guidance and it is not case that these matters need to be debated but that they are a given? It must be made clear that reducing the obesogenic environment is what is prioritised and then all of the decisions flow from that. It strikes me that where it is open to interpretation, sometimes it is the community, in this case in Skerries, that will lose out as a direct result because no parent wants his or her child going to school beside a fast food outlet. The marketing is extremely aggressive because it works. There is pester power, etc. This is right beside where the children will go to school. It should be in black and white. There should not be room for interpretation.

Mr. Colin Ryan

I cannot comment on a particular planning application and I will not make any comment on that.

Broadly speaking, a planning application has to be assessed and adjudicated upon in accordance with the county development plan and in accordance with the legislation. It stands on its own two feet and can be appealed to An Bord Pleanála, and An Bord Pleanála then makes a decision on it independently of the Department and anybody else. There are two points I would make in that regard. First, there are related objectives in the various development plans. We discussed the unintended consequences of that in terms of other land uses and the proximity of schools within town centres.

On the guidance, that is a broader issue to do with moving, cycling and walking. The definition of a takeaway is something far more complex. It is not black and white. From a promotional point of view, in terms of what planning can do to assist in tackling levels of obesity, one of the key components is movement and the capability of permeability, etc., would be touched on. That is where the focus would be from a planning point of view. When one gets down to the issues of the ins and outs of a particular application at a particular point in a particular context, that has to stand on its own two feet in deciding on whether it is an existing use, a new use or an extension to an existing use. All of those matters need to be taken into consideration.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

That is fair enough.

Mr. Colin Ryan

The issues then might be around such matters as opening hours, which could be examined at that point in time. I refer to the relationship with what is in the local development plan or county development plan that the members have decided in their wisdom to put in. That is a fair point. They must be determined on that basis. It is far more nuanced.

I take the Deputy's point about the particularity of an application close to a school and the issues around advertisement, etc. Those issues are not necessarily related to the particular issues of planning per se. They are broader issues to do with public health.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Ryan and Ms Martin for their contributions. I have two quick observations. I touched on the permeability issue. It would be helpful for the committee, or perhaps just for myself, to know that it is an ongoing battle to try to instill that. I do not want to sound pompous. I am a former local authority member. I really enjoyed my time on the local authority. I went through two development plans as a local authority member. However, it really needs to be instilled among local authority members that permeability, particularly in a built environment, has to be an integral part of a planning application and its granting because if one does not have permeability one has isolated island communities. My constituency colleague and I would know of several desperate examples of bad planning in the county of Fingal dating back generations that have led to all sorts of problems from a social perspective because there are isolated islands of development with no footpath linkage, in one case, even after 40 years. Permeability is key. It aids healthy environments and healthy living. It permits parents to have peace of mind. Both Deputy O'Reilly and I are parents. I would very much like to be able to allow my children to walk to school at some point in the future when they are old enough. At present, I would not because it is not safe. That is a regret. I am sure it is a consideration of parents up and down the country. From our perspective, as the Committee on Children and Youth Affairs, that is the primary objective in this process.

Ms Martin mentioned earlier that the LUTS committee was looking at developing guidelines in a general sense. That would be helpful. I do not expect the LUTS will have them finalised before this committee publishes its report. It would be helpful if such guidelines were circulated to all public representatives, both at local authority and Oireachtas levels, because it is something that might be missed by them. It is integral because it covers every bit of what we do as public representatives, both at national and local level.

Ms Joan Martin

I would not go so far as to say we are developing guidelines. What I am saying is we would be willing to take it as a topic to look at, maybe, in conjunction with the Department, and maybe look at the ins and outs, and the pros and cons - some of what we teased out here. I do not know what would be the outcome of it because at the end of the day every development plan, unless there was a statutory provision, is a matter for the members. Certainly, I would be willing to propose it as a topic to be looked at by the LUTS committee.

Chairman

I thank Ms Martin for that. It would be helpful if she did. It would be helpful to members of local authorities to have some professional guidance in that area in addition to that which is provided during a development plan or local area plans.

I referred earlier to the cure, such as providing facilities for children and young adults, and, indeed, parents, to exercise on their doorstep, and the prevention, in terms of the building of a fast food restaurant, takeaway or whatever the definition might be within the vicinity of a school.

Alternatively, one might not prevent the development of such a facility but, rather, limit the opening hours so that it is not open during lunch time, particularly where children are permitted to leave the grounds of a school for lunch. The question remains as to whether we want to tackle this issue and, if so, how we proceed. The best approach is to limit the development of new facilities. As local leaders in our communities, we must work with businesses to try to curtail the opening hours of the facilities that are providing unhealthy food. We have an overarching problem, as Deputy O'Reilly and others have stated, which is the difficulty in defining healthy food. Hot food can be healthy, just as much as cold food can be healthy or unhealthy for that matter. Eating a breakfast roll every morning when one is 15 is not healthy. However, if it is eaten by someone who exercises and who is in an environment that is conducive to exercise - I am not saying that this should be encouraged - it may not be unhealthy. There are so many issues that must be considered. If people who run 5 km or 10 km per day have a small slice of chocolate cake, that is not going to kill them. However, if people eat chocolate cake every day and do not exercise, it will cause problems. It is important to look at that aspect also.

I would advocate banning or preventing new fast food restaurants from being opened in the vicinity of schools. Given the evidence presented to this committee this morning, it would be very difficult to retrospectively close these facilities. Further, we do not want to give the general public the impression that a no-fry zone, as conceived in County Wexford and spread throughout the country, means that there will be no fast food restaurants near schools. Often it is the case that when a local authority or national body mentions a no-fry zone, it gives a false impression. What we are trying to achieve is a healthier environment for children and young adults.

I thank the witnesses for their attending, for their contributions and for dealing with our questions and observations so comprehensively.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.25 a.m until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 21 November 2018.