Skip to main content
Normal View

Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs debate -
Wednesday, 13 Feb 2019

Recruitment and Retention of Social Workers: Tusla

I thank the witnesses for their attendance as we continue our hearing. From Tusla, I welcome Mr. Pat Smyth, interim chief executive, Mr. Jim Gibson, chief operations officer, Ms Colette Walsh, director of human resources, Ms Frances Haigney, general manager, and Mr. Cormac Quinlan, director of transformation and policy. I welcome members as well as viewers who may be watching our proceedings on Oireachtas TV.

Before we commence, in accordance with procedure, I am required to draw witnesses' attention to the fact that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed to give evidence only in connection with the subject matter of these proceedings and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind members and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones, as they interfere with the sound system.

I advise the witnesses that any submission or opening statement they make to the committee will be published on the committee's website after this meeting.

After his presentation there will be questions from the members of the committee. I invite Mr. Smyth to make his opening statement.

Mr. Pat Smyth

I thank the members for the opportunity to speak on Tusla recruitment and retention issues in respect of social work and social care staff. They have been introduced to my colleagues and we will be happy to engage and take questions at the end, and to inform them on any areas I have not covered in the opening statement. For clarity, we submitted the opening statement as well as a more detailed background report with more information. I will update the committee on the issues associated with recruitment and how these impact on helping to resolve the recruitment challenges faced by Tusla. In addition, I will point out some of the initiatives the agency has undertaken to retain staff. As I said, additional information is in the separate document as well as in Appendix I of this document.

Since its establishment in 2014, Tusla has taken a number of significant steps to ensure that it is best placed to recruit and retain social work staff. However, despite recruiting in excess of 800 posts since 2014, this has only resulted in a 4% increase, just over 60, in overall social work staffing. The reasons for this are complex and relate to both the supply of social workers as well as the challenge of retaining staff in the area of child protection and welfare services. When we look at international comparators of social workers to children, the number of child protection social workers per 1,000 children, which is the international comparison we are using, in Ireland it is half of the closest number we found, which is in the UK. The implication there is that if we were to staff up to UK levels, we would require another 1,500 social workers. We have approximately 1,500 social workers currently, so it would mean doubling that number. It shows the challenge we are facing. Currently, Ireland trains 215 social workers through universities. In 2018, Tusla recruited 140 social workers. In a rough calculation, if they are all new social workers, we are getting 65% of the new graduates. The HSE is also competing for the same cohort of graduates, as well as voluntary sector agencies. This underlines the challenge. Ireland is not educating sufficient numbers of social workers to meet service demands for the coming years.

In addition, Tusla has invested in strategies to retain staff recruited to the organisation. While the numbers leaving the agency have fallen somewhat since we have commenced these initiatives, the challenge of the work involved in child protection and welfare means that graduate social workers are attracted to other social work areas having gained the experience and completed a number of years of work in child protection and welfare services. The solution to the recruitment of social workers and other key staff will take a number of years to resolve and it will require support from the universities, educational institutions and CORU, as well as political support.

Some immediate options are being progressed by the agency with partners. There have been discussions between the Department of Children and Youth Affairs and universities about increasing the number of undergraduate places available. Those discussions are ongoing. We have trained and developed our staff in a significant initiative, entitled Signs of Safety, which is about the implementation of a national, uniform practice model to ensure staff are sufficiently supported and trained for the very challenging work that is child protection and welfare. We are commencing the development of a strategy to create multidisciplinary teams who will work alongside social workers to create additional capacity within current resources to manage the delivery of services at the front line.

When Tusla was established in 2014, the agency was in more than 400 locations nationally, dealing with more than 43,000 child protection and welfare referrals each year. In 2018, there were almost 60,000 referrals, a significant increase on previous years. In respect of child protection services, the agency inherited 17 different areas of practice. The underlying systems in those were disparate, including five which were exclusively paper-based. In addition, the agency relied heavily on a memorandum of understanding, MoU, with the HSE for a range of critical services, including human resources and recruitment. Soon after establishment, it became apparent that Tusla's recruitment requirements could not successfully be met through the MoU as both agencies were seeking to hire the same staff. When greater financial resources became available in 2016, we commenced the development of our recruitment service, called Tusla Recruit.

While child protection and welfare is the main area of our work, we have to deal with many other areas of service. These inevitably capture often the best skilled, older and more experienced social workers on staff when we need to recruit to those areas. We have provided a long list of those services but areas such as adoption, separated children seeking asylum, therapy services, homelessness, educational support services, family support, domestic abuse, alternative care regulation, alternative educational assessment and registration and early years service regulation demand experienced social workers and they take social workers away from the child protection and welfare services as well. These services are supported by other directorates in the organisation. However, the point is that they are another source of drawing away from the child protection and welfare side.

The next point is how recruitment overall as well as social work have increased through the five years of establishment. Currently, we have just under 3,900 whole-time equivalent, WTE, staff in the organisation, of whom 1,453 are social workers. In addition, we employ just under 500 agency staff, of whom 226 are social workers and 160 are social care workers. We can go into detail about the arrangements relating to those later.

It is important to note the key achievements since the agency's establishment. One of the points that consistently comes through in HIQA reports - and we have had some very challenging reports from the authority in terms of services - is that where there has been an immediate risk to children, we have been able to put immediate protective responses in place that keep the child safe. That is at the core of everything Tusla tries to do - the idea that a child who might be at risk would not get a service because of whatever issues there may be in any part of the organisation is a human issue for any of us - and we have put in processes to ensure that it happens as far as we can make that possible. There is also the establishment of other areas related to our discussion this morning. They include Tusla Recruit and central vetting for employees as well as foster carers, Garda vetting and so forth. We have developed a comprehensive child protection and welfare strategy, which has been informed by all the gaps we have identified over the past number of years such as service gaps, recruitment and the risks that exist. That strategy has been in process over the past two years and has brought a significant improvement to our services.

We have established a child protection notification system, CPNS. That is part of our automation and investment in information and communications technology, ICT. In terms of support for families outside our system, the prevention partnership and family support initiative has been a major success. National University of Ireland, Galway, NUIG, evaluated that earlier in 2018 and found the initiative to be very strong. It is about trying to support families and children who are not in care but outside our system and in our attention sphere. The national childcare information system, NCCIS, went live in July 2018. For the first time, that brought a single system to child protection systems where the recording of data and the facility to allow social workers to work online on the recording of cases and so forth have been done. There is still work to do on it but it has been a major step change in our progress. Programme management as a practice has been brought into many of the changes, including service development, service initiatives and service improvements in which we have been involved, and we have developed a comprehensive ICT strategy and department and enhanced mobility with the workforce in terms of mobile devices and so forth.

I will briefly mention the complexity of what social workers do. In Tusla, the majority of social workers are employed in child protection and welfare in addition to children in care work. Our goal is always to try to make lives better for children. In social work cases, we intervene in complex situations where sometimes parents and children experience severe difficulties that have developed over time and require complex solutions.

In addition, we are also constantly balancing the need to intervene effectively in private family life to protect children, but also not to over intervene and damage the autonomy and rights that parents have to a private life, nor to unnecessarily remove children where other alternatives to their safety might exist. That is where the Signs of Safety process training of social workers has been heavily weighted towards.

We need to move from a culture of blame to a culture of shared responsibility, and the creation of a learning environment for staff, and civic discussion involving children and families that appreciates the complexity of child protection work. In public discussion, social work decisions are criticised for being overly interventionist, while in other situations for not taking action quickly enough or not intervening enough in families' lives. That is a challenge that we and social workers at the front end constantly have to balance.

A number of factors influence why social workers leave the profession. Through international research and Tusla's own consultation process, we know the factors that influence a social worker's decision to leave child protection. They are as complex as the area of work itself, including issues such as a culture of blame where often the positive work is ignored with a focus instead on the "bad" stories. Such focus leads to a risk-averse culture which, in turn, gives rise to professional decision-making being pushed upwards resulting in micromanagement and low job satisfaction. Furthermore, social workers, in particular, those in the area of child protection and welfare report higher levels of stress and burnout. Unfortunately, this can be compounded by overly bureaucratic systems, which reduce the time a social worker spends on direct work and have an impact. Finally, while we acknowledge and are supportive of the role of inspections, by their nature these focus on areas of deficit. The absence of commentary on the positive work in an area results sometimes in increased workloads as staff focus on the issues to be sorted rather than on the wider picture. It decreases consistency. Staff will leave areas where there are consistently high levels of criticism, .

As for how we are addressing this, we have experienced a small reduction in staff turnover in the 2016 to 2018 period. Behind that, we have established Tusla Recruit, which is a recruitment service specifically for Tusla. Up until 2016, we shared panels, recruitment services, etc., with the HSE. As I stated earlier, the competition for the same resources was never going to leave us in a position where we could get the best recruitment service for the social workers that we wanted and, therefore, we established our own recruitment service. At present, we handle 98% of our recruitment campaigns.

Through our workforce learning and development programme, we have enhanced training opportunities supporting the continuous professional development provided to social workers, including leadership training, supervision as well as organisation-wide training in Signs of Safety. Over the past year and a half, we have trained in excess of 2,000 staff in the delivery of that. There is a comprehensive ongoing programme with that. It provides a method of work which is relationship and strengths-based and works exclusively with the family and the others who are around the child in the community to create better outcomes for children and it has been widely welcomed and adopted by staff. It is positively rated by staff as they go through that process.

Through our graduate programme, we have been reaching out across Ireland, Scotland and Northern Ireland to link with universities to try to promote Tusla as a good place to work and, hopefully, as an employer of choice for graduates.

We worked consistently throughout 2018 on the development of a sophisticated workforce plan, which is about trying to develop multidisciplinary teams. In terms of trying to develop an alternative to the social worker model, we must identify, test and agree what these multidisciplinary teams will look like to ensure that the complexity of the care that one is trying to deliver at the front door is enhanced with care givers other than social workers and social care staff. That work allows us to capitalise on the other disciplines that we have within the organisation to support the front-line staff but also safeguard not only their time but also the service and the practice.

We have developed a pioneering initiative for social workers called the empowering practitioners in practice initiative, EPPI, which covers the major themes encountered by them in their daily work. This toolkit sets out clear and concise mentoring arrangements for social workers who engage in the initiative.

We have provided a large range of family friendly policies. In social work services, 85% of our employees are female and there is a large demand for term time, career breaks and parental leave. We have also been proactive in addressing issues of stress and burnout by providing enhanced employee health and well-being programmes and access to a critical incident stress management programme.

We face a number of challenges. Our demand for social workers is not being met by the supply of graduates from the universities. We are competing with other sectors for the same cohort of graduates. Similar to nursing and other professions, the mobility, choice and demographic profile of graduates, who often leave within two years, is very apparent. Child protection work is seen as the most challenging within the social work profession. Some of the retention initiatives give rise to recruitment demands. For example, promotional opportunities and career progression require back-filling, and family friendly policies place additional demands on the teams. I mentioned the demographic issue. A total of 100 of the 1,500 social workers are on maternity leave at any time because of the demographic profile of employees. Delays in the registration of new social workers are something that we have been trying to work through so that new social workers are available and registered faster but there are delays in those at present. There is also limited access to overseas social workers due to restrictions on visas-work permits for the non-EEA candidate pool.

A number of issues require further development on our part. We have put them down because we will require support as we move through them. An important one is access to training pathways for social care workers who wish to train and work as social workers. That is the idea of having those who work with us on the social care side of the house having some kind of employment-educational model that allows them to train as social workers. Additional graduate social work training places should be made available. We have mentioned the idea of a revised pay structure or some type of salary banding which can recognise the particular challenges associated with social workers within the child protection and welfare side. We have mentioned the need to strengthen the legislative framework on a number of fronts, specifically, section 3 on the retrospective allegations of abuse, which causes significant concern and angst within our services in terms of how to effectively deal with those cases. Finally, there is communicating and improving a civic understanding and the need for shared responsibility for the care of children in society.

In conclusion, the Tusla story is positive. We have made significant progress and undertaken much reform since establishment, despite the challenges faced by the agency. As I have demonstrated, where those challenges fall within our control, we have been proactive and creative in addressing them and we will continue with greater clarity in the context of the workforce plan. However, continued support is required from the wider civic, political, regulatory and media arena to ensure we can meet the significant challenges ahead. In particular, I ask members of the committee to support Tusla in the following areas: additional graduate places from third level institutions; the need to establish, provide and support the development of pathways for social care workers continue to work as social care workers but train as social workers within that environment; a revised remuneration scheme; and in terms of the workforce plan, the need to support and funding for technical administrative roles that will support social workers on the front line in the delivery of their duty.

My colleagues and I are happy to answer any questions from the committee.

I thank Mr. Smyth for his opening statement. I call Deputy Sherlock.

I apologise in advance as I am under time constraints and will have to leave the meeting. Some of us have questions to the Minister, who is in the Chamber so I will not delay. I thank the witnesses for coming. Tusla's statement is very clear in that it sets out pathways and challenges. I welcome this and acknowledge the recruitment and retention challenges Tusla faces. I also acknowledge the challenges it faces in respect of the HIQA reports and investigation and the outworkings of that.

The expert assurance group, EAG, which was established to oversee and advise on the implementation of the recommendations of HIQA's investigation, has published its first quarterly report. Will the witnesses give me a sense of how this is working for them at present?

Mr. Pat Smyth

Tusla welcomed those recommendations. They were certainly in line with the areas where we see developments need to be made. We have worked as a management team with the EAG very proactively in recent months. This has been a challenging process because it is another oversight piece on top of what goes on in daily business. Ultimately, it has been positive in allowing us to focus on key changes that we needed to make in respect of governance and the development of the workforce plan. Overall, it has been a relatively positive piece of work. As for the delivery of the recommendations, there is no point in pretending they will all be delivered quickly, but we have commenced work on all them. It has been a positive process and we have been working towards-----

Does there continue to be a structured engagement with HIQA?

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes.

How often does that take place? Does it take place through the expert assurance group?

Mr. Pat Smyth

It takes place with the EAG. We have a structured engagement once a month on the EAG report. We meet the EAG directly and it reports back to our board quarterly, so it is quite intense.

I ask Mr. Smyth to talk to me about Tusla's whole-time equivalents. The number of staff has reached 3,893.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes.

Of those, 1,453 are involved in social work or social care.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes.

Is this increase a result of the recruitment drive?

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes. Resources first came on board in 2016 to recruit additional staff. Across the three years, 2016, 2017 and 2018, our numbers increased overall by just over 400 whole-time equivalents, WTEs. Just under 60 of these are social workers.

Tusla has 499 agency staff.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes.

Of those, 226 are social workers and 160 are in social care.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes.

How much is this costing Tusla, quarterly or annually?

Mr. Pat Smyth

In a year the cost is €31 million.

That is obviously a substantial cost.

Mr. Pat Smyth

It is.

What is Mr. Smyth doing to shift that dynamic in order that Tusla can recruit these people as whole-time equivalents?

Mr. Pat Smyth

It is important to note that the full cost is €30 million and the additional cost is approximately 25% extra over what those employees would cost if they were full-time workers. That is a cost we need to eliminate from the system. The reason we need it in the first place, on the social care side and certainly on the residential side, is that we have quite a high level of absence due to sickness because of the nature of the residential services. People are out regularly, so in order to fill the work schedules required we must have a number of people who are available all the time to come in. We have directly targeted all those social workers who are on the agency list to ensure they are aware of our competitions and we encourage them to apply.

If I were an agency worker, why would I want to go into Tusla? Is it more beneficial in terms of my terms and conditions and rate of pay to stay as an agency worker?

Mr. Pat Smyth

In one's longer-term career it is, whereas for a young social worker under 30 with an intention, perhaps, to travel abroad, it is not. Part of our challenge with recruited social workers concerns people who are employed by us full-time. Our experience is often that once people leave within two years they can recover their pension contributions, so it can act as a fund. This is not just the case with social workers; it is the case with other young graduates. There are benefits-----

Is Mr. Smyth trying proactively to disrupt this dynamic in order to bring them in?

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes, we are in direct communication. While the social workers are employed by a private company directly and the private company works with us to supply those social workers, we are constantly advertising. Those staff are working in areas where there are vacancies so they are very aware that as campaigns emerge they are in first place.

Do we know how much the agencies are creaming off the top for-----

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes.

Mr. Pat Smyth

It is a contracted price, so we cannot confirm the precise figure, but it is approximately 10%.

Can Mr. Smyth supply us with general figures regarding this dynamic? If it is €31 million, it is a big chunk of change out of Tusla's annual budget. If 10% is going to recruitment agencies, that is an unmitigated scandal. I am not blaming the witnesses for that - that is the way the system is working - but there is something inherently wrong in that.

My next question concerns fostering. Of the 1,453 social workers, how many are in fostering? There is a perception that people are moving more and more into fostering. Mr. Smyth may correct me if I am wrong in my perceptions, but child protection, for instance, is incredibly difficult work both psychologically and from the point of view of stress. I imagine that there may be a perception that fostering is a little easier. I am not saying it is not challenging - I am trying to understand the dynamic - but I imagine there is a high rate of attrition, not people leaving the service but moving into another service within the overall family. How many are moving across from child protection or other areas?

Mr. Pat Smyth

I will give the Deputy a very brief answer to that question. Some of my colleagues who have worked in the social work service can give him a more comprehensive response. At a very high level, it is not just fostering, but also adoption and a number of other services that we have advertised for publicly and into which we need to hire experienced social work managers and practitioners to run those services. The Deputy is absolutely right that this adds to the attrition from the child protection and welfare side of the house. We can absolutely confirm the numbers we have in respect of the foster care side of the house. Again, though, foster care of itself is high-risk in that ensuring that selection and monitoring of foster carers and the monitoring of the children's progress with foster carers require experienced social workers-----

Fostering is as difficult and challenging as the other areas.

Mr. Pat Smyth

It is as challenging, yes.

Mr. Jim Gibson

I do not have the exact number but we can get it for the Deputy. The lion's share of social work posts are in the child protection and welfare area. With the developments within the child protection and welfare service with our national approach to practice and the strategy, many social workers prefer to work within that area with those initiatives. It is quite important. With duty and intake teams, many social workers like to return because our service delivery framework is set up in such a way as to try to minimise the number of social workers a child will have in his or her lifetime through his or her journey and care, so children move to the children and care team quite quickly. The children and care team now manages all the court appearances, which can be quite intensive for staff.

My last question concerns international best practice. The witnesses may not have the answer now. I perceive that the role of a social worker in society today is potentially very much more complex than it might have been ten, 15 or 20 years ago. Is there a natural rate of burnout? Is there a period of years beyond which one should not work so as to guarantee the well-being of the individual social worker? Again, this is just perception. One would imagine that if one were working at the coalface of child protection for ten, 15 or 20 years, managing those stress levels would become harder and harder. Is there a period after which one should leave? I ask this because if the answer is in the affirmative, that has a bearing on the strategy for graduate recruitment and so on. I just wonder if Tusla is dealing with that dynamic. It is a complex question, to which a complex answer is probably required.

If the witnesses cannot answer now, I understand, but it would be useful if they could revert to the committee to give us a sense of that dynamic.

Mr. Jim Gibson

As a qualified social worker with so many years practice that I do not want to disclose them, my view is that there was a problem when we adopted a very process-driven UK system, which was oriented very much towards form filling and assessments without necessarily having a good engagement with children, young people and their families in a community context. I believe strongly in the practice model we have adopted which involves a strength-based approach built on good relationships with children, young people and their parents. It has changed the whole dynamic in Ireland having regard to our approach to child protection and welfare.

Mr. Cormac Quinlan

I am conscious that the Deputy is under pressure to leave but I will pick up on that important point. Like Mr. Gibson, I have been in social work practice for a long time. I have spent 20 years on the front line in child protection, in particular. We set out in the supporting paper circulated to the committee material on the issues that support retention. I think that is what the Deputy is talking about. How do we retain staff to do the complex and challenging work involved? The Deputy is correct that over the years, regulation has increased in this realm which has put more pressure on staff in terms of their performance on issues, which is good and right in respect of the provision of effective services. Ultimately, we have found that it is about the ability to make a difference. It is about staff feeling they have the ability to make a difference and being facilitated to do so. That is very much the intent behind the child protection and welfare strategy and what we are trying to do with our practice approach there. High quality supervision keeps people in place. Individual supervision and, as we have also implemented, group supervision will support people to remain in the service. Career progression is important. The Deputy referred earlier to different posts. We are prioritising senior practitioner posts on the child protection side of our business to try to hold onto people there. They might not want to go into management but want to stay within child protection while being rewarded.

Is that process under way?

Mr. Cormac Quinlan

It is.

Is someone kicking the tyres in the process to see if it works?

Mr. Cormac Quinlan

Absolutely.

Mr. Jim Gibson

Last year, we approved two senior practitioner posts within our intake duty systems across the 17 functional areas.

In following on from Deputy Sherlock's question, I am going to try and look at this from a different perspective. I am trying to look at the report for the figures but the witnesses may not have them. How many positions, in particular in social work, are unfilled currently? That can be by number or percentage.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Currently, we have the resources to allow us to hire a total of 4,500 staff for the organisation. Last year, that was taken up between the 3,900 staff we have plus 500 agency staff. We can hire another 600 people into the organisation on payroll and probably 50% of that is on the social work side.

That is three numbers.

Mr. Pat Smyth

In respect of the numbers we are talking about, the agency numbers represent a reasonable one-for-one on the vacancies that are around the place.

As such, there are approximately 300 outstanding vacancies in social work.

Mr. Pat Smyth

We would probably have that.

That is to say, approximately.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes.

How many of those are backfills and how many are new roles?

Mr. Pat Smyth

That is a question on which we can come back to the Deputy.

I appreciate that Mr. Smyth may not have the detail. Of the new roles that are not filled, how many new roles were not filled last year?

Mr. Pat Smyth

Last year, we had additional investment for approximately 80 posts into the front end. That is a combination of social work and other services in terms of getting other expert administrative grades alongside social workers. It is not unlike the position in medicine with medical secretaries and others who know the business and how to carry out and enhance the administrative tasks involved. That has been a direction of travel. From an organisation perspective, we must point out that when we came into being in 2014, the organisation we came from, the HSE, had a very strong, centralised, administrative pillar. While that is subject to a lot of attacks, it acts as the administrative support to all of the services provided by nurses, doctors, physiotherapists and mental health practitioners. It is a pillar of service we did not have when Tusla came into being. That has caused us a lot of initial angst as to how to get to a position in which services do not have to run the administrative side of the organisation. While there have been positive developments, it is something we have had to build up.

My initial question was on how many new roles in 2018 were not filled, in particular on the social work side.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Most of the newer roles we created in 2018 are filled with agency staff.

How many were not filled by direct employees? If Mr. Smyth does not have the figure, they can send it on.

Mr. Pat Smyth

We can come back with that.

I am trying to get an understanding on the flip side of what is not being filled. If these roles are not filled, Tusla's budget is spent to pay agencies to take up the work.

Mr. Pat Smyth

I would put that a slightly different way. It is because we cannot fill them that they end up being filled by agency staff. It is important to know the position at this stage of the year. No available social workers are hanging around, even in agency organisations. They have all been hoovered up by individual organisations.

Are salaries in agencies being inflated because of the lack of supply?

Mr. Pat Smyth

Not necessarily. What happens from an agency employee's perspective is that they do not have the same deductions, such as the pension deductions that apply to State employees. While they may be getting the same pay rate, they do not have the same level of deductions.

What is the nature of the contracts agency workers have? Are they fixed-term or hourly-rate contracts?

Mr. Pat Smyth

I might ask my colleague, the director of human resources, to fill the Deputy in on that. However, the agency providing those services is contracted through a procurement process with us.

Does Tusla pay the agency a retainer to hold staff on a preferred-supplier list?

Mr. Pat Smyth

No, it is an open procurement.

I know, but in respect of recruitment, the agency supplying Tusla has workers. Is that agency paid a retainer to provide Tusla with staff every year or is it just-----

Mr. Pat Smyth

No, it is a fee. The agency gets a permission per employee.

Ms Colette Walsh

On agency staff, we have 92 females on maternity leave and it is generally around that level at any point in time. Of the 226, 92 is a good number out of that. Maternity leave is usually for a period of year and it may be longer if the staff member extends that into paternity leave. The minimum term of a maternity leave contract with agency staff is one year. That covers approximately 100 of the agency staff.

As such, one third relates to maternity leave.

Ms Colette Walsh

Absolutely. As we said to Deputy Sherlock on retention, we have 41 social workers on career break at the moment. If we are looking at retaining staff and how we manage that, we are developing this process. We also have 77 social workers availing of the shorter working year. If one looks at the hours one is backfilling with agency staff, one is looking at maternity leave and-----

I am sorry to interrupt, but I am following a train of thought. What is the reason for availing of a shorter working year?

Ms Colette Walsh

If one looks at the profile of agency staff, 86% of our workforce is female and aged between 25 and 50. As such, they are in their childbearing years. Most of those young females have young families which the shorter working year suits. We gave this as an incentive to retain staff. The HSE was not providing career breaks when we transferred from it and we made an agreement at management level then to facilitate the shorter working year. There are also 306 staff on parental leave.

I am trying to drill this down in respect of social workers. According to the witnesses, approximately 50% of the outstanding roles are backfilled and 50% are new. I am trying to concentrate on the new roles.

Ms Colette Walsh

We can get the Deputy the data he is requesting as they are quite detailed. We can certainly provide them to the Deputy.

Can Tusla provide the committee with a flow chart on the recruitment process from end to end setting out the number of steps someone has to go through? Does recruitment take place by panel nationally or is it locally driven?

Ms Colette Walsh

We have local and regional recruitment panels.

Can the witnesses elaborate on local and regional recruitment panels?

Ms Colette Walsh

I will hand that over to Ms Haigney, the head of recruitment.

Ms Frances Haigney

We have national panels but they are also regionally based.

For example, if we have jobs in the west, people who have a preference to work in the west will be based on a west panel.

How many counties does the west panel cover?

Mr. Pat Smyth

It goes from Donegal to Clare. It is a large "west".

Is that a typical panel? Are there panels that cover smaller geographical areas? I am trying to find whether there are local panels. For example, is there a panel for Limerick, or a mid-west panel, or is it very broad and very much according to the HSE model?

Ms Frances Haigney

No, it is preference-based according to the preferences of the candidates. We tell the candidates we have vacancies across the country and tell them which regions we are interviewing in, and we ask candidates for their preferences. When they are successful and based on a panel, we will offer by preference rather than offering to the whole panel because we know X number of people have a preference to work in Limerick, for example.

Does Tusla currently have people on panels that are over-subscribed or are the panels empty?

Ms Frances Haigney

We have in excess of 600 social workers on panels and they are on panels because they may want change locations or-----

They are employed by Tusla.

Ms Frances Haigney

Some are employed and some are agency.

I am asking whether there is any region which is over-subscribed, with people waiting on a panel to take up a position, given there are openings everywhere.

Ms Frances Haigney

No.

My next question concerns the IT system. Is the Tusla IT system integrated with the Garda system?

Ms Frances Haigney

No.

Are there plans to do that?

Mr. Pat Smyth

There are. To give the committee a picture of where we came from, when we fell over into Tusla on 1 January 2014, we had an ICT department with four staff. We have built that into a department which today has 30 or 32 professionals. It is an excellent development within the organisation. They have been engaged with the Garda and I had a report just last week in terms of the engagement they have around the sharing between PULSE, NCCIS and the referrals piece in order that we can integrate that.

Is there still a paper process?

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes. We could give the committee the ICT strategy, which would be useful.

Mr. Pat Smyth

I do not mean that. It is an overall picture which tells how we started off five years ago in the equivalent of the 1970s in terms of automation. What has happened is that the NCCIS, which is the core information system in the organisation around child protection, only landed with us in 2018. There is still work ongoing to bed that fully into the organisation.

I mentioned to HIQA that I welcomed the fact the ICT systems were put in place, so credit where it is due.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes. There is development-----

Can Tusla furnish us with a date for when the Garda PULSE system will integrate with the Tusla system, given the history of what has happened and the people we have had at this committee before? It is imperative that we get some sort of timeline on that.

Mr. Pat Smyth

We can absolutely give the committee the plan around what we are proposing on that.

Does Mr. Smyth have a specific timeline for when those systems will integrate?

Mr. Pat Smyth

No, not at this point. We will give the committee the outline of the plan and the work that has been done. I can assure the committee there is comprehensive and strong engagement between ourselves and the ICT side in the Garda to do that. There is no doubt between either organisation that this is-----

There is no estimated timeline.

Mr. Pat Smyth

To give a picture of the development, the emphasis in the last six months was on trying to stabilise the NCCIS. We are now in a space to talk to the Garda around how PULSE can integrate with that so both systems can support it.

There is no timeline yet.

Mr. Pat Smyth

No, but there are open doors and very strong communication. I have no doubts in this regard. What we will do is give the committee the plan in terms of what the overall estimated timeframe is.

I am very conscious of the timeline for getting those systems integrated, given what has happened.

Mr. Pat Smyth

I understand. It is obvious to everybody that it is in that space. To reassure the committee, there is a huge amount of work going on to produce additional productivity and ease of work through developments around that system and through developing other ICT portals, systems and applications. Last year, as part of the NCCIS development, we issued some 1,800 mobile devices, for example, laptops and much-improved phones, to social workers. That was a huge investment to facilitate NCCIS and to give mobility to social workers to allow them to operate better. Much of this had previously been done on paper.

That was the problem. I have two more questions. First, with regard to the agency staff on Tusla's books, is there a conversion clause to convert some of them into permanent employees of Tusla?

Mr. Pat Smyth

No, there is no automatic conversion clause. Somebody recruited to the public service obviously has to go through the public service process and, as we have a public service licence, we have to do that.

Has it been examined that somebody who is working there for 12 months through an agency could convert to become a permanent employee? Obviously, they would have a great knowledge of the organisation. Is there a roadmap for that?

Mr. Pat Smyth

It makes sense. We have done some work on that in the past and we are looking to engage on that front. The director of human resources will be able to give the committee the detail on that. Again, it is not a straightforward process.

Ms Colette Walsh

We have some areas of social work where it is challenging to fill vacancies. On that basis, we have linked in with the agency that supplies the agency workers and we are looking at a conversion of staff, bearing in mind there are restrictions with regard to the recruitment licence. This would bed people down into a position for a period of time to give continuity of care for children who are in care.

What is the problem with the recruitment licence?

Ms Colette Walsh

We have a recruitment licence and all jobs have to be publicly advertised. On that basis, we would not be converting agency staff members into permanent staff. Rather, we would be advertising the job. The agency staff would convert for a period and would bed down into that position, and they would then be in a better position to apply for a permanent job at a later stage.

Once they are there for six or 12 months, they would then apply for the job. However, I want to throw out the idea that something more be put in place. What happens in the private sector? When a contractor goes into a private sector organisation for six months or 12 months, there is a conversion clause in the contract to say that if the person is hired permanently, a fee will be paid to the agency to buy that contractor from it, and the person becomes a permanent employee after 12 months work. Do not get me wrong: the person still has to be interviewed, but they are a step ahead. Given the lack of supply the witnesses are talking about, can that be examined?

Ms Colette Walsh

It can.

Can that be done within the current legislation?

Ms Colette Walsh

It can be done that we convert for a period of time but they still have to apply for a permanent job under the licence. It can only be converted into a position for a period of time and the position still has to be advertised. We have to be clear that we are in compliance with our recruitment licence and we have to work within that. We have some restrictions around that. I take on board what the Deputy is saying. We have done some conversions in the past but we still have to keep in compliance with the licence and the legislation.

Mr. Pat Smyth

We have to be very clear that there is not a straightforward conversion piece in the way the Deputy is talking about it, whereby we would effectively convert what is a private contract into a public service contract. To hire anybody into the organisation, we have to go through that recruitment process. Obviously, anyone who has worked in a job has an increased advantage due to experience and knowledge, so when it comes to interview they are in a good position.

Therefore, it is the statutory process that is blocking Tusla from doing that.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes, the public service process.

Ms Walsh said Tusla will explore this. Will it push to explore as much as possible what it can do within the process to make this as efficient as possible?

Ms Colette Walsh

Absolutely.

I have one other question. The witnesses spoke about stress and burnout among employees. Although I want to get to the nub of the difficulties, I want to put on record that social work is very rewarding and we would praise social workers for the work they do, and I say this having interacted a lot with social workers. Nonetheless, given staff have been missing work days, is there any movement, particularly from a HR point of view, towards looking at new work practices to support social workers in regard to softer skills, such as the mindfulness or de-stress practices we see in the private sector?

Is there any movement, or any thought, from a human resources point of view, to look at new work practices to support social workers by means of softer skills such as mindfulness, or similar de-stressing approaches, that are happening in the private sector because of people missing work?

Ms Colette Walsh

Yes, there is. We set up our own health and well-being unit last year, recognising the burnout levels among and the stress that our social workers are operating under. In recognition of that, we commenced resilience training and crisis intervention stress management training. This is being rolled out throughout the organisation in support of social workers and recognising the difficulties of the job and the position they are in. We have done that.

Mr. Jim Gibson

It is also within the remit of area managers to develop mindfulness programmes for their staff and they recognise the need to do that. There are examples across Tusla where area managers have commissioned specific mindfulness and alternative-type activities which assist staff in dealing with the emotional turmoil they sometimes face.

That is at the discretion of the area manager.

Mr. Jim Gibson

Yes. We encourage an immediate response to critical incidents that may have occurred.

It would be great if the officials from Tusla could furnish the committee with a ratio of managers to social workers. I thank our guests for attending. We highlighted the IT system at the most recent meeting and I welcome the implementation of that. I really want to see integration between the gardaí and Tusla on the IT system so we have a record and ensure that what happened in the past does not happen again.

Mr. Jim Gibson

As chief operations officer, I really welcome Deputy Neville's commentary about social workers. They work in very hostile environments at times and we should commend social workers and social care workers who remain in posts and deliver a child protection welfare service. I thank the Deputy for that.

I have a number of questions I would like to address. Mr. Smyth referred to retrospective abuse cases. How many people does Tusla have working on such cases or liaising with statutory inquiries with An Garda Síochána and other agencies? How many retrospective abuse cases is Tusla currently handling?

Mr. Pat Smyth

We can give the Chairman details of that. We have somewhere in the order of approximately 1,400 open retrospective cases. That increased quite significantly in 2018. We have found that, as there is publicity about retrospective abuse, we tend to get increases in referrals.

Yes, of course.

Mr. Pat Smyth

We have 1,230 open retrospective cases as of the end of December 2018. I will ask Mr. Gibson to comment on the numbers of staff working within that area.

Mr. Jim Gibson

All duty intake teams deal with retrospective cases. That is the point of contact and, ordinarily, those cases are picked up by the duty intake child protection and welfare staff. It is a highly complex and challenging area of work which is devoid of good legislation to compel the person making the complaint to follow through on it.

Did Mr. Gibson say it is devoid of good legislation?

Mr. Jim Gibson

Yes. We have a significant legislative challenge in this work whereby we are being asked to assess or investigate statements of complaint or of concern to us as an agency. Someone could come in and make a referral to the Child and Family Agency saying that, when he or she was young, a member of a religious order or a member of my family sexually abused him or her, and leave. We can ask that person to come back and furnish further, more detailed information to give us the opportunity to carry out a good assessment of that but we cannot compel that person to come back and, quite often, they do not want to come back because of the emotional and psychological trauma they have experienced.

We also have no powers to compel that person of concern to whom the complaint related to come and involve themselves in our process. They can tell us to go away. It is difficult work and we struggle to get good policy and practices into this area. We have changed our policy on numerous occasions and it has also-----

I am sorry to interrupt. Is Mr. Gibson referring to the inability to independently enforce-----

Mr. Jim Gibson

We have no powers of enforcement.

I was of the view, though perhaps I am mistaken, that was being addressed by way of primary legislation.

Mr. Jim Gibson

It has certainly been raised in the expert advisory group and we have made submissions to the Department, which is currently reviewing the Child Care Act 1991.

Has Mr. Gibson been informed through that process, or through that body, that there will be a change in that area or is it still languishing in the Department?

Mr. Jim Gibson

I will refer the Chairman to Mr. Quinlan.

Mr. Cormac Quinlan

The Department of Justice is leading a review of section 3 of the Child Care Act. Ms Caroline Biggs, SC, is chairing that process and both ourselves and the gardaí are part of that process, informing the required changes we feel need to be made to section 3 to consider how the legislation might support more effective engagement.

Would it be possible for the witnesses from Tusla to forward that viewpoint to the committee? That would be helpful to us.

Mr. Jim Gibson

Yes.

I apologise, I interrupted Mr. Gibson.

Mr. Jim Gibson

In the development of trying to address significant referrals, particularly retrospectively, one region developed a specialist team in Dublin north east. That has influence and we have given a commitment in response to the HIQA statutory investigation that we would establish four regional teams. We are in the process of consultation and review of practice and methodology to come with a clear service delivery unit for this. There are other factors which also need to be taken into consideration, like our commitment, with An Garda Síochána, to identify social work staff to be very much involved in their protection units.

We are also developing a Barnahus model, the pilot project relating to which is established in Galway. It specifically looks at retrospective child sexual abuse. Those things are integrated. Ideally, we would have four regional teams to deal with the complex cases and the duty intake area teams will still be involved in low priority retrospective cases. It is important to note that a colleague who was a service improvement manager for retrospectives that we carried out a couple of years ago informed me that 70% of those referrals never got off the runway for us to deal with on the basis that we could not get follow up from the person who made the complaint.

What was that percentage?

Mr. Jim Gibson

It was 71% and that was in the southern region.

Is that sort of figure replicated nationwide to the best of Mr. Gibson's knowledge?

Mr. Jim Gibson

It is a theme we want to get a better understanding of.

What are the numbers of personnel assigned to the function of facilitating the investigation of historic or retrospective abuse cases? How many social care workers, for example, are involved in that process?

Mr. Jim Gibson

The professionals primarily involved in this work are social workers. The specialist teams comprise a principal social worker, a social work team leader, senior practitioners and social workers.

Are they engaged in any other work while they are doing that retrospective work?

Mr. Jim Gibson

No. The idea is that they are specialists and confined to that work.

In response to Deputy Neville, Mr. Smyth referred to the approximately 500 agency staff employed by the agency and its total staff complement nationwide. He also stated that Tusla has the capacity to hire an additional 400 staff. If Tusla has that capacity, has it considered providing - or does it provide - additional supports by way of administrative staff to assist people, especially social care workers, in doing their work?

How many does Tusla have in that area? How many does it plan to hire? Of the 400 that were mentioned, could we have a breakdown of the individual roles included, or is it just all social care workers? That can be provided in writing if the witnesses wish. Has Tusla considered apprenticeships? Is that something Tusla is doing?

Mr. Pat Smyth

There are probably two questions there. We can give the committee extra data on where we see those posts going. We started the process of recruiting additional numbers since 2016. The evidence that we were not able to hire the number of social workers we needed did not come about suddenly. In terms of where we have been going with our workforce plan, the lack of supply or the lack of capacity to retain social workers has become much more evident over the past 18 months. In terms of developing this front-door model, where we have a multidisciplinary team, part of what we are engaged in at present is identifying the most effective use of the resource that we might otherwise have been applying to social workers, for example, whether it should go to more social care workers or more skilled administrative staff. We have a model that sets that out. As we said earlier, we are in the process of testing it across a number of areas to see how effectively it works. The output will be the figures around the new types of areas that we need to go after. That is a little bit of a work in progress but I can give the committee an overall picture.

My second question was around administrators but I think Mr. Smyth touched upon that. There was also a question about apprenticeships.

Mr. Pat Smyth

That is a very good question. I will have my colleagues get into it because they are much more closely apprised of it. The areas in which we need development would absolutely benefit from an apprenticeship type approach, or even something that allows existing staff to take some time out to work on education programmes with educational institutions. There has been some work done with some of the institutes of technology, ITs, that want to provide additional training to staff. I will let Mr. Gibson give the committee a deeper update on those developments.

Mr. Jim Gibson

In respect of the supply and demand, we can look at the number of graduates coming through, the gender statistics and the propensity for young people to go and travel. We are in business with lots of community and voluntary organisations, where we find very mature people voicing a desire to follow a career in social work. However, they are generally married with a few children and a big mortgage and they cannot afford to go to college for four years. We have engaged in some preliminary discussions with the Irish Association of Social Work, which I meet on a quarterly basis, about developing pathways for that cohort of mature people, who are embedded in their communities and are going to stay around, to be able to qualify in social work. I have spoken to the HR director about these things. There has been engagement recently with the universities and the Department, during which that very measure was on the table for discussion. Perhaps we can create pathways whereby we can employ these individuals in a certain grade and look at block release so they are training on the job. That would allow us to identify those who are keepers because they are from the area and are committed because they have a mortgage and a family. That is an untapped market that I have flagged to the HR director and the Department in discussions. We are hoping we can see something coming from that.

Ms Colette Walsh

To follow on from that, there is an overall Department of Health strategic work plan which includes our colleagues in the HSE, the Department of Children and Youth Affairs and Tusla. We have met the universities to raise the challenges with regard to the limited number of social workers and also to request an approach for blended learning. The universities set the course entry qualifications, so it is about how we can approach blended learning and mobility. They are just preliminary discussions around other pathways for social work careers. We are also looking at labour supply and demographic trends. The universities are aware that the number of social workers graduating each year is not sufficient to meet the needs of our organisation or of other organisations that also require social workers.

Going back to the figures that have been provided, there are 1,500 social workers and Tusla is operating at approximately 50% capacity. It has 100 out at any given time at the moment. Based on its 65% retention of qualified social workers, of the 200 qualifying per annum, we are looking at 19 years to get to 100% based on today's requirements, whatever about what we might need in 20 years. Is my arithmetic correct?

Mr. Pat Smyth

One of comparators we gave the committee was the number of social workers who are engaged in child protection in England per 1,000 of population. We would need to recruit 1,500 in total if we were to staff at UK levels.

Is it reasonable to make that assessment?

Mr. Pat Smyth

The challenge for us is that the model of care we are putting in place, Signs of Safety, which Mr. Gibson and Mr. Quinlan have spoken about, is a more relationship-based model. We would hope that we would not need to get to those levels. Realistically, looking at it from this point, within my lifetime we probably will not see those numbers available. We are going to require more social workers. We have to address the numbers that can be retained within social work. While our leaver rates are high compared with other services in the UK, our turnover rate is about 7.5% while in the UK it is 15%. There is a challenge on all those fronts. What the Chairman is driving towards is that we need to have different streams of people who can meet the demand. In respect of the workforce plan, in the absence of enough social workers within that space, we have to develop something more sophisticated in terms of identifying other cohorts that we can train to a comparative level, or identifying what work can we take from social workers that allows us to best utilise their skills.

The pay grades and public sector pay agreements have been mentioned, as have allowances. If a person is burning out due to being overworked, are the pay grades sufficient to retain these individuals? This is not a criticism of the organisation, the State or the individual, it is a reflection of reality. As Deputy Neville has said, these people do extraordinary work, as I know from my personal experience and from my role as Chairman of this committee. Does there come a point when burnout approaches because they just feel undervalued to the point where they feel they cannot do this any more? They are working until seven or eight o'clock at night every night, it is interfering with their personal lives, they cannot put the work down but are not being paid enough to care that much. There is a point where somebody has to say they are done and move on.

Mr. Pat Smyth

I reflect absolutely everything that the Chair is saying. I would make that point from the perspective of the organisation that the work done by social workers for the State and for society is very demanding and needs to be valued very highly. There is a complex suite of things that ultimately drive somebody out the door, including recognition of the complexity and highly demanding nature of the work.

In terms of complexity and demand, a description of a social worker's day can be shocking to any of us. I am not from a social work background but it is quite startling. We need to recognise and probably reward the people working in high intensity areas and to find some way to get that on the table. I do not think we can compete with the other areas of social work for those people on a long-term basis if we do not do that.

Mr. Jim Gibson

Money is one element of it. As a social worker my biggest frustration was that I could not get access to services when I had carried out assessments. Many of these were complex cases that were known to other State agencies and related in particular to young people involved in criminality who had poor mental health status. As we are a welfare agency they sometimes come back to us without an integrated approach. There have been some really good developments in Tusla over the past year, including the creative community alternatives. The feedback from social workers is that it is really good to have a resource at hand at an area level which allows them to engage a young person in an appropriate therapeutic intervention. We are also on the cusp of rolling out our therapeutic service across the country. This service was piloted in the Waterford-Wexford area. We have therapeutic models in our special care service and our national alternative care, AC, service is now a regional service. It works from a therapeutic model as well. We have also introduced Signs of Safety. We are travelling in the right direction to do away with some of the frustrations for social workers and principal social workers, such as trying to access placements or interventions when a young person presents in crisis at, say, 5 p.m. on Friday evening. The Signs of Safety programme has opened the door to engagement with parents in terms of their concerns and what they consider to be the solutions. We can help them in that regard. We can also deal with the safety aspects of the planned intervention. It is positive to hear practitioners and managers on the front line speak enthusiastically about a new practice model.

I chaired child protection conferences for ten years in south Tipperary and I saw that parents were not being considered in the process. Interventions involved a group of professionals having a conversation at a high level, to which poor mum or dad would agree to get out the door. How positive was that? It was not positive in the least. Was it going to create good outcomes for children? Not necessarily. I strongly believe that what we are doing now is moving in the right direction. This is evidenced in the call-back days and so on, which perhaps Mr. Quinlan could do a comprehensive report on to the committee.

That would be welcome. In regard to foster care and adoption, how often in the first year is it appropriate for a social worker to visit a foster care or adoptive family?

Mr. Cormac Quinlan

There are regulations that require us to visit at particular times. In the first year, there is a high level of engagement and then it drops to a lower level. Engagement is higher than is required by the regulations, particularly in terms of fostering placements. It depends on the nature of the situation. If a foster placement is settled and stable, the minimum requirements will maintain that placement but where a placement is struggling, the level of engagement would be much higher. As I said, it depends on the nature and circumstances of the placement. I would say that our visits exceed what regulation requires of us.

Unfortunately, that was not always the case.

Mr. Jim Gibson

The creative community alternative in Dublin north city made an application to my office for significant funding to support children to remain in existing foster care placements and to prevent foster care breakdown so that children would not have to travel into a residential care facility, which quite often would be outside of their communities and thus mean new schools, new clubs and societies and so on. I thought it was a very innovative approach. Foster carers tell me on a regular basis that they need a service now which goes beyond a visit by a social worker to try to calm down a situation and then to make application for services. The creative community alternative is more instant, more innovative and far more supportive. We will use the therapeutic services to bolster that support to children in care, including foster and other care.

What is Tusla's view with regard to inter-agency co-operation in regard, primarily, to retrospective abuse and investigations, particularly its interaction with An Garda Síochána and, as mentioned earlier by Deputy Neville, the IT issues within that organisation? Although I have raised the IT issue with An Garda Síochána on many occasions, I have not seen a vast stride in the right direction. Rather, I have seen only small steps over my eight years as a Deputy. Much more needs to be done.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Having stepped into this role four months ago, one of my immediate engagements was with the Garda Síochána and the HSE in terms of a plan and protocols for information sharing. This is the ground work that needs to be done in terms of the effective engagement between us all. On the Garda side, this process is led by an assistant commissioner. As interim CEO of Tusla, I take the lead on behalf of Tusla and the HSE is represented at a senior level. This process has a high level of leadership to get it to a point where, hopefully over the next number of months, we will have agreed protocols around information sharing. We are currently engaged on a number of protocols. The data protection legislation requirements have caused some issues for us in terms of getting protocols in place faster than has been the case. It is a process that we and An Garda Síochána view as an important one to get across the line fairly quickly.

In terms of retrospective abuse, there are a number of other issues involved, including training for social workers in interview technique and so on, which is moving at a pace rather than happening quickly. There is work in the background that is moving forward but, as Mr. Gibson stated, one of the challenges we face all of the time in terms of the retrospective piece is having a solid legislative framework to move forward on it. In terms of child protection, it is of immediate concern when referrals come to us. The issue of what we have been asked to do around adjudication and the policy requirements around that have always been challenging because as we put a new policy in place, a court case will mean that we have change that policy. This is an ongoing issue for us. For an organisation with 4,000 staff, rolling out a new policy is a complex piece of work. Every time we change policy, there is confusion. The more frequently that happens, the more confusion is created.

Mr. Cormac Quinlan

There is daily activity on hundreds of cases between the organisation and the Garda. There are a number of structures in place. We have a national structure in place at a senior level and there are structures throughout the organisation at area and local levels in terms of effective engagement working. This is set out under our Children First joint working protocol with the Garda.

On the issue of retrospective abuse, we always have to be careful about how people understand retrospective abuse. To put it in context, retrospective abuse is where an adult comes forward and says he or she was abused in the past by an individual and he or she believes that person might post a risk to a child today.

If we have an identified child with reasonable grounds for a concern to intervene, we will intervene under the Children First and legislative provisions to protect that child.

The challenges arise when we share information about children potentially at risk. For example, this may apply to individuals in a position of employment, such as teachers or people in a youth club. Can we share information with the employer or the youth club to allow them take protective or safeguarding action? The challenge we have is that to share that information with those persons, we must go through a fact-finding or investigation type of process to determine a finding and then share the information. It is in that space that we are challenged fundamentally, as it is not typically a role the agency would hold. We are not investigators of these matters. Where the Garda is involved, it is where the adult complainant wants to progress a criminal matter, but in many of these cases the adult complainant does not want a criminal process. He or she simply wants the agency to effect the rights of other children potentially at risk. We are not always working with the Garda in these cases but rather we are working alone, undertaking a forensic examination to determination a fact. As Mr. Gibson has outlined, there is no legislation to support us in doing this work.

That is critical. One of the concerns I have in my capacity when I come across issues, as I do fairly regularly, unfortunately, is how long it takes for the investigation and the fact that there is no communication stream. It is not the fault of Tusla, which does its job when it gets sufficient evidence and presents it. It is totally understandable. In the intervening period, it is often the case that the victim or concerned individual sees nothing and does not hear anything. The person may ring the Garda but it does not know anything about it and it cannot take action because there is not sufficient evidence. The problem arises in terms of public confidence in the way in which the system is structured. The witnesses have clearly identified and, I hope, would provide us with additional information that would be very helpful for us in fulfilling our responsibilities in this equation.

At the same time, I can think of something of which we are all perfectly aware in this committee and which we have been dealing with for quite some time. I will not speak about specific instances but there are cases in the public domain. Yesterday's interview of a solicitor representing alleged victims of child sex abuse implied that some of these issues were recent, but as far as I am aware, no agency is aware of any recent activity. That is very problematic, primarily because of Children First, Tusla's role in the equation and the role of An Garda Síochána. I am very concerned in hearing things like that being said. When this is condensed, it leads to the assumption that there may be an active individual in a national organisation. I do not believe there is, but there could be. The idea that there could be is of massive concern to me and, no doubt, to others. I am sure it is a matter that somebody in Tusla has considered. Is it possible for us to plug that gap and do so promptly? Does the organisation have the personnel to do it? As we have outlined, Tusla does not have the legislative backing. In the years since the Children First provisions came about, how many times has this been highlighted to the Department or the HSE, for example?

Mr. Cormac Quinlan

There has been active engagement with our Department colleagues on the matter.

It is on an ongoing basis.

Mr. Cormac Quinlan

As I said, there are two processes. There is the review of section 3, which is ongoing with the Department of Justice and Equality, and the review of the Child Care Act is ongoing as well. We are feeding into that. There has been proactive engagement, but I recognise the Chairman's concern. We have recognised it for a long time. We have advocated very strongly for change in this regard. It is not completely within our control or remit but we will continue with it. In line with the HIQA investigation, we are revising our procedure to make it as effective, I hope, as it can be within that context. Mr. Gibson has spoken about the establishment of dedicated teams to do this work, and I hope this will increase the response rate and quality of that response in this space.

Without a shadow of doubt, we will continue to be legally challenged in the space and that will continue to present challenges for us. As I said previously when before the committee, there are cases when we are basically asked to facilitate semi-judicial processes where a victim may be cross-examined by an alleged perpetrator in a case. That is not something that an agency whose sole responsibility is protecting children should be involved with. It is the space in which we have been placed and it needs further involvement across the sector to address the matter.

I have a hypothetical question. If the organisation is investigating a retrospective case involving a sporting body, for example, but it comes via an individual who is not in that body, does the organisation have to wait for the completion of the investigation before the sporting body can be questioned as to the person's involvement?

Mr. Cormac Quinlan

If we believe a child is at immediate risk or there is a requirement to intervene, we will intervene to protect that child. That is first and foremost. If there is a potential concern, where there are allegations rather than findings and there is no proof, we will engage in a process of investigation. We would interview both the person who is accused of the individual abuse and anybody else so as to gather any other information that we have that is relevant. We must make a finding on the basis of a balance of probabilities. It is a 51% threshold and if we believe there is a founded outcome, it is on that basis that we can share the information. Without that finding we are challenged about the constitutional right that a person has to his or her good name. Therefore, we would have to go through what is called a very fair process in making that finding.

I have two more issues to raise before we finish. The witnesses mentioned earlier that €31 million is being expended on agency staff. How many staff are in that?

Mr. Pat Smyth

There were 499 at the end of December.

My colleague was surprised that a percentage of that was retained by the companies involved. I thought he was around long enough not to be surprised by such matters but there we go. I thought 10% was a bit small but how and ever. There is the issue of the demographics of those 500 staff. The witness outlined that people within a certain age cohort cannot be retained because they do two years and are gone. I presume those out of college are included.

Mr. Pat Smyth

They might go to the Health Service Executive.

They might go there because it is probably a bit more flexible for them.

Mr. Jim Gibson

It is important to make the point that social work activity in the HSE does not operate under a statutory role and responsibility.

Are there different pay grades?

Mr. Jim Gibson

No, they are the same pay grades. However, there is a different working environment and group. It is important to make that differentiation.

Under the circumstances I do not ever envisage a scenario where agency staff will not be used. The witnesses might tell me if that is not correct. The health service in question will always use agency staff.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes. The challenge is to see if there is a mechanism other than agency staff to provide some kind of facility such as part-time or other workers. That is difficult within public sector employment as rights accrue to somebody after a period, even on temporary contracts. The need for agency staff will always be there, but it is about trying to strike a balance between the additional cost and the longer-term costs of replacements for long-term staff. I agree with the Chairman's statement that there will always be that extra spend.

I thank the witnesses for responding to the members' questions so comprehensively and taking a considerable chunk of the morning to do so. The committee will meet the Minister, Deputy Zappone, to be briefed on the implications of Brexit for her area of responsibility at our next meeting. That will be in advance of the introduction of the Brexit related Bill to the House later this month.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.20 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 19 February 2019.
Top
Share